Toronto Mike'd: The Official Toronto Mike Podcast - The History of Hip-Hop in Canada: Toronto Mike'd #1039

Episode Date: April 23, 2022

In this edition of the Progressive Past of Modern Melodies, Mike, Brother Bill and Cam Gordon are joined by Dalton Higgins as they dive deep into the history of hip-hop in Canada. Toronto Mike'd is proudly brought to you by Great Lakes Brewery, Palma Pasta, Canna Cabana, StickerYou, Ridley Funeral Home and Patrons like you.

This is a throwdown, a showdown, hell no I can't slow down, it's gonna go! What up Miami? Toronto VK on the beat I'm in Toronto where you wanna get the city love I'm from Toronto where you wanna get the city love I'm in Toronto where you wanna get the city love So my city love me back for my city love Welcome to episode 1039 of Toronto Mic'd.

Proudly brought to you by Great Lakes Brewery. A fiercely independent craft brewery who believes in supporting communities, good times and brewing amazing beer. Order online for free local home delivery in the GTA. StickerU.com. Create custom stickers, labels, tattoos, and decals for your home and your business. Palma Pasta. Enjoy the taste of fresh homemade Italian pasta and entrees from Palma Pasta in Mississauga and Oakville. Ridley Funeral Home, pillars of the community since 1921.

And Canna Cabana, the lowest prices on cannabis. Guaranteed! Over 100 stores across the country. Learn more at cannacabana.com. Joining me for this progressive past of modern melodies as we dive deep into the history of hip-hop in Canada

are Brother Bill and Cam Gordon. Brother Bill, Cam Gordon, good to see you guys again. Hey, Mike. Hey, it's been a while. It's been too long. Nice to be back, Mike. Thank you for having us. Oh, my God.

Do you recognize that guy in my shirt? Of course I do. That's Biggie. Biggie Smalls. Winners, $20. That's how much you can get a Biggie Smalls shirt. It was actually licensed from his family too. I don't even see that, but it's like his family licensed it. So it wasn't for, you know, some company in Asia. So I just wanted to touch on that quickly.

Well, that's awesome. I love the t-shirt you're wearing almost as much as I love the Biggie Smalls. But so Cam and I were hanging out last night for an episode of Toast. So Cam, I've seen you. Brother, it's good to see you again. It's been too long. But I want to bring in our esteemed guest. This is the subject matter expert today as we dive deep into the origin, the history of hip-hop in this fine country.

Welcome to Toronto Mic'd, Dalton Higgins. Hey, thanks for having me at Toronto Mic'd, Dalton Higgins. Hey, thanks for having me at Toronto Mic'd. I mean, or Toronto Mic'd, this is the man, the myth, the legend, you know what I mean? Like, I've seen this guy's name floating around Toronto for like years. I'm just like, so I'm happy to be here. Wait, slow down. That's all I wanted to hear. Okay, thank you, everybody. That's it. That's not to say that your co-hosts aren't legends in their own mind. No, I'm joking. Well, they are legends in their own mind, that's it so that's not to say that your co-hosts aren't legends in their own mind and i'm joking

well they are legends in their own mind that's in our own minds yes yeah so dalton before we find out what makes you a subject matter expert who are you to be an authority on hip-hop in this country how do you know cam gordon i sense that you guys already know each other. How do you know me? Yeah, how do you not know Cam Gordon? The man, the myth, the legend. I mean, yeah, Cam has been doing fantastic work out of Twitter. Like, I'm pretty active on socials, you know what I mean, across different platforms for some of the older folk that are still living on Facebook or whatever, as my kids tell me.

It's all for old folk, you know, 35 in Overcraft, 40 in Overcraft, whatever. That's Brother Bill. That's me. That's just all for old folk, you know, 35 in Overcraft, 40 in Overcraft, whatever. That's Brother Bill. That's me. Yeah, that would be Neil. He's a Facebook, obsessed with Facebook still, despite what the 20-somethings might think. And then, yeah, but as far as Twitter, you know, Twitter's doing some

fantastic work, you know, as far as that platform. That's where I know Cam through. Dalton, I feel like we might have met for the first time in person on U.S US election night in 2016 Probably introduced through Jen Hollett, our mutual friend Yes, through Jen Hollett And then Jen Hollett, who used to work at Twitter Canada

And I know her from MuchMusicDays Because I used to do stuff at MuchMusic And she was a MuchMusicVJ for anyone who cares Of course, we all care MuchMusic is a whole different, yeah, that's whatever. Listen, Dalton, if anyone cares, it's this show right here, okay? That's our job, to care about who is a much music VJ. So Dalton, in the past, if you've ever listened to a progressive past

of Modern Melodies with Brother Bill, Cam Gordon, and I, we've dove deep into the history of punk in Canada, the history of new wave in Canada. We covered heavy metal in this country. And today I'm very excited that we're going to dive into the history of hip hop in Canada. But just let the listenership know, why is Dalton Higgins a subject matter expert when it comes to hip hop in Canada? Yeah, totally. No, that's a great question. comes to hip-hop in Canada? Yeah, yeah, totally. No, that's a great question. I mean, I find this whole Toronto, you know, Canadian hip-hop thing quite fascinating. As I saw that discussion online,

you know, like you guys put out some information, people wanting to speak about Canadian hip-hop accurately and coherently, right? And I actually found it was quite interesting and disturbing in a sense because I saw all of these names being offered up you know like people saying hey this person can speak coherently on canadian hip-hop or toronto hip-hop right and i was just like yeah there's just a bunch of names they said they haven't no like you mean like like like my point here is that social media like is is is essentially you know it's littered with fake news and they're all of these people weighing in on can hip-hop that don't qualify to critique the culture,

is what I'm saying, right? So... On this note, Dalton, you're the fine... It's almost like a game show. I had so many potential subject matter experts, and at the end of the day, you're the man who got the Zoom link. Right, right, right. Yeah, yeah, totally. Yeah, and no, no,

and that's, you know, kudos to you for doing due diligence, you know? Like, you want to dig around and uncover a scene, whether it's punk or country folk, classical, indie rock, I don't care. But you got to do the due diligence, right? So you guys clearly did a bit of that, because I was just like, but anyway, so, I mean, so here's the thing. Like, as far as myself, my attachment to Canadian hip-hop history and culture, and in particular even Toronto rap and hip-hop culture, and culture, and in particular, even Toronto rap

and hip-hop culture, you know, so in Canada, you know, you have people that are older than myself that, you know, like, we have people like in Toronto, Ron Nelson, you know, he launched, you know, Canada's first hip-hop program, it's called Fantastic Voyage at Ryerson or X University.

And that's a show that all hip-hop junkies, this is the early 80s right that's the name i know from you know i'm a little bit older than you uh dalton and that's one of the first names when you if you were to bring up what you did uh names out of toronto especially was ron nelson and and ckln and fantastic voyage as you mentioned which i think was on saturday afternoons from like the early 80s till the early 90s. And, you know, I'm an ex-radio guy. So I although hip hop wasn't really my scene, punk rock was. And I think that the the the roots of both hip hop and punk rock come from the same

background, which is the streets, really. There was no real radio stations to play this kind of music, your kind of music, my kind of music. And so the DIY ethic, and thanks to guys like Ron Nelson at CKLN, thanks to a guy out here in Vancouver where I am, I think his name was Maximus Clean, I don't know if that name rings a bell with you, a guy named, I think it neil or nile scoby was at citr hosted a rap show out here in 1989 called in effect or it started in 89 don't know what's going on my my point is though it's it's it's roots that's where it comes from and it grows

from there would you not agree yeah no it's it's totally um uh know, punk, reggae music histories, rap music, they're kissing cousins. And what I mean by that is, you know, they are, or distant cousins, I mean, they're, or close cousins, I mean, they're rebel music. It's protest music. It's music that's here to put a mirror to reality, right? So if you think, you know, the queen, the monarchy sucks, that's what a punk band does. They're just like, you know, down with the queen, down with the monarchy. That's what rappers do, right? So the best rappers are able to critique the culture that they exist in. Now, so anyways, I mean, my point, like, so then you have somebody like John Bronski,

and this is me just sort of paying homage to people that are older than me, but they kind of, i would say left the scene whereas me i just stuck around in the scene doc kept documenting john bronski as well have to pay homage to him he was a columnist at this magazine called street sound and um and he was also a major label anr i think it was so yeah sony canada and he put out this uh this rap compilation it's the first canadian rap compilation called the Cult Front Compilation, okay, that a lot of independent Canadian acts ended up on, right? So anyways, there are people like those that come before me, Dominic Culture Now.

What happened is because there's no infrastructure here, there's no money coming in, there's no real support for what we call so-called urban music, a lot of them left the industry many years ago and did other things. They moved on to other music genres. Ron Nelson, Neil, who we were just talking about, he went into the reggae scene. Yes. Because he was like, hip hop is, it's commercials. I mean, it's not getting any support. So I'm going to do reggae, dancehall, right? John Bransky, he's worked in the film industry. So they left the industry years ago. Now, somebody like myself, I just, I was able to somehow, you know, make a living out of this. And so I exist, you know, just to answer your question, Toronto Mike, you know, as a living archive, you know, like kind of a walking encyclopedia of Canadian hip hop, you know,

because I've stuck around. I didn't sort of disappear from, you know, some people are like, yeah, I'm punk, I'm DIY, I'm, you know what I'm saying, indie culture, and then I leave it and become a corporate hack on Bay Street, right? I stuck around. And Dalton, I'm trying to remember, because I remember when I first met you as one of the thrills about working at Twitter is I all of a sudden was meeting all these people I'd seen on TV. I remember you would show up on Listed on Much More Music. I feel like that's where I first saw you. But how long have you been writing about music? Because I know you've done like several books, like, because I feel like it's been that like, back to the 90s. Like, we're probably all around the same vintage, I think. Oh, yeah, no, no, I go back. No, no, I know, I go back. I mean, I, you know,

we're referencing much music. I mean, my so I've written six books. And you wrote a book about? Yeah, yeah, no, no, that's it. No. I mean, my, my, my first book was about much music. Um, I was a talking head or a pundit on much music shows like listed much more music. And you talk about top 10 R and B songs, top 10 pop songs, top 10 hip pop songs. Right. So I was a talking head on there and, um, and, uh, master T, uh, you know, former VJ there, he had been there since its doors opened in 1984. So he'd been there like almost 20 years, and it was on his way out. And he and his family had approached me because they knew I was a reporter reporting on, you know, urban music

culture, you know, rap, R&B, I was just that guy, you know, writing for Now Magazine, writing for magazines in the US, the Source Magazine, which is the Bible of used to be guy, you know, writing for Now Magazine, writing for magazines in the U.S., the Source Magazine, which is the Bible of used to be called, you know, the Bible of hip hop culture. I was, I think, one of two Canadian contributors to that magazine in the 90s and early 2000s. So anyways, that was my first book. It's about much music, the history of urban music in this country, much music. So I interviewed, you know, Moses Neimer, Denise Donlin, Michael Williams, Soul in the City. You know, I think, yes,iams soul in the city interview you know i think yes strombos in the book uh you know i mean the history of much music and and within

that now where i was able to tell a little bit of the history of hip-hop music in the country because much music was one of the primary vehicles to get your music out there yeah so much here firstly all of that esteemed uh build-up of your career has been leaning up to this moment right now. Being the hip hop in Canada, subject matter expert. Give yourself too much credit. A little too much. Ralph Alfonso, you name it, Marty Popoff, Dalton Higgins, it's all leading up to this. But I heard you say DJ Ron Nelson.

And periodically I'll point out when people are FOTMs and much like Master T, DJ Ron Nelson's an FOTM, but of course, Dalton, you're now an FOTM as well. That means friend of Toronto Mike, so welcome to the club. Yeah, round of applause. Can I take us way back? Okay, but I was going to go...

Sure, brother, you take us way back, but I was going to take us way back. Okay, I want to go back to 1979. That's where I want to go back to 1979. That's where I want to go. If Dalton has ever heard the song Ladies Delight by Mr. Q. That's where I'm going. So, yes, Brother Bill and I on the exact same page. Tell us about this.

I believe this to be, in my research, the first Canadian hip-hop single. A lot of people like to guess my age, but I become so full of rage Maybe it's because that I'm so handsome, women try to break me down But maybe it's because I'm so cool, I stick to my own golden rule Never fucking shy and always high, never be sucked by another guy Always remember what you're told, never try to be too damn bold Now I heard about you, I heard about you, I heard about you I just wanna be what you want me to be I want you to see what you want to see I just want to be what you want me to be I want you to see what you want to see

I just want to be what you want me to be I want you to see what you want me to be. I want you to see what you want to see. Like a doctor on the mic, like Junior on the bike. Just moving, moving all night long, just trying my best to get it on. On a Saturday night, when things are hard, thinking about the women that I've got. There's you and me, and it always suits. I'm wondering what I'm gonna do. I start crying, I leave, leave.

It keeps me busy. I confess, but I never will complain. Cause I'm going down in history, like Jesse and Frank James. They took the loot, but I take the love, cause that's my claim to fame. I'm loaded with unique technique, I always catch the game You're getting wrong and tell yourself that ladies lovers don't like the money But it makes me mad, and a little bit sad when the boy ain't got no money Jump up, shoot me, do what you do, cause I'm cookin' it just for you

Some folks call it a day round I just want to be what you want me to be. I want you to see what you want to see. I just want to be what you want me to be. I want you to see what you want to see. I just want to be what you want me to be I want you to see what you want to see Some folks call me Superbad and say I leave this quick But if the name they got for me, I'm Mr bad and say I'll leave this quick But this the name they got for me I'm Mr. Ultra Super Sick

My do is clean, my ride is mean It's better than a green machine My dress is slick, my hat's a sasser And baby, my rap is good and laughing It's four diamonds everywhere And I ain't even gotta care My personality just glows When they love me, heaven knows

Keep three ladies on each arm That's cause I'm people so much charm And when it comes right down to love They put me on the top above So no one done wanna feel it, no They ain't got nothing on me Just come outside and keep my ride You guessed it, she's a caddy Now what you say we leave this just right now And you can drive again And when the sun gets up and rushes deep Let it find us so it's gone Keep on Don't stop

Let it rock This time to get it on Come on Come on Come on ༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱� Come on, shoot me do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do Chema Chubidubidu, karaka meja karibu Chupa Chubidubidu, karaka meja karibu Chema Chubidubidu, karaka meja karibu Yes, it is. That is correct.

Now, here's the funny thing with that. So that single, right? Ladies Delight, 1979. Here's the funny thing. It only recently got uncovered, rediscovered, like a mere, you know, like last year. Easy to read. So when you talk about this idea of a definitive canadian hip hop history like people will say hey i was the first rapper i was the first this right that's

all still uh in process it's it's not it's not so definitive because prior to that um people were thinking um it's this group what they call the bum rap there's a track called the bum rap people are saying that's singing fools yes yeah Fools. That's what people were referencing, even citing in academic essays. People, you know, academics, we can get into that because academics have this weird relationship with hip hop. They just sort of like, hey, it's something I can do a master's degree, PhD, but you're not in the trenches like that, right? But anyways, I'm not here to rip academics, but yeah, so and then all of a sudden they're like, wait a second. This guy now, how I know about Jay McGee, you know, Mr. Q, this track.

Yeah, so the track comes out like I remember seeing, you know, Rapper's Delight, Sugar Hill Gang. Right. Okay, right. I could still rap the whole song, you know what I mean? Like it's just permanently implanted in my brain. And so I grew up in a neighborhood in Toronto. It's close to a neighborhood that's affectionately referred to as Little Jamaica, all right, in the northwest end of the city. So in that part of the city, there's a record store there called Monica's, Monica's Cosmetics

and Record Shop, okay? So I'm a byproduct of Monica's. I used to spend my waking hours while other kids are out at the mall or doing whatever they're doing, I'm in a record store. So I'm a pure byproduct of growing up, hanging out in a record store as a young child, right? Because the owners there, Junior, who is the son of Monica and George, you know, his parents that run the shop, he was like, you know, I guess an early influencer DJ. So I spent my time, public school, middle school, in record shops. That's why I have this old head head. Like I'm not that old, but I was in record shops as a child, you know? So, and if you ask anybody that's worked in music retail or hung out in record shops, they become these encyclopedias of music. That's just what happens, you know? Yeah. Right. So Sugar, you mentioned the Sugar Hill Gang. So that's 1979, right? We're going

back. So where I was going to go with this is I was going to talk about the influences that the likes of Mr. Q. Where did they hear the music from? I know they probably heard it from a number of sources, but I would assume, and please, Dalton, let me know if I'm completely wrong here. But I would assume that a lot of the music came out of New York City at the time with the likes of Curtis Blow, excuse me, and the Sugar Hill Gang and to an extent Grandka music and the music of the Caribbean and kind of bring it all together and make its own sort of blend. Am I going in the right direction? No, no, that is correct. I mean, here's the thing. For one, when we talk about the influence of Grandmaster Flash and the Furious Five and Curtis Blow,

you know, these are the breaks and you'd reference someone else. So at the time, in the late 70s, early 80s, what's happening is we're just doing this copycat New York rap, okay? So this I can tell you. So every rapper. That's what Mr. Q sounds like to me. It sounds like a copycat. It's just a copycat, and it's literally a copycat

because it uses the music from Sugar Hill Gang's Rappers Delight. Like quite literally, you know what I mean? Like rapping over a popular American hip-hop single. So that's what all the rappers then, you're wanting to sound like you are from New York because it was not cool to be from Toronto back then. So there's a guy, okay, you guys, you know how Toronto used to be called the T-Dot?

Sure, of course. Okay, right? Yeah, so there's a guy. So my hip-hop mentor is this guy named sean morrison or k-force okay the letter k the number four c-e-k-force sean morrison he lives in in the u.s in new jersey but he's the guy that coined the term the t-dot okay oh right yeah he put it in this rap that didn't come out commercially, right? Yeah, because he was the machine behind, you know, he was writing songs for Mishy Mee, Canada's first lady of rap.

And he grew up in the same neighborhood. Like the reason, just to go back to Mike's early question, is the neighborhood I grew up in, and that's where a lot of the early emerging hip-hop cultures, it was birthed, it was invented, it was nurtured in my neighborhood. So the guy who invented the term T-Dot, not the guy who popularized it, that would be part of now Fischel, is Sean Morrison, right? Yeah. So Mishy Me, I know her

as just Michelle McCulloch, you know, from middle school. You know what I mean? Forget the rap thing. You know what I mean? So people look at her, they say she's Canada's first lady of rap, which she is, and she's fantastic. I know her as Mishy, Michelle McCulloch from middle school, in my neck of the woods. Yeah. I love her, by the way. I hope she as Michi Michelle McCulloch from middle school in my neck of the woods. I love her, by the way. I hope she's listening. She's been over several times, and I just think the world of Michi me. I'm just throwing that

out there. We're going to dive deeper here. Cam, and again, Cam, I know you've got to go at some point here, so you just chime in whenever you want. You have permission to rudely interrupt us. I always do. That's true. You don't need rudely interrupt us. I always do. That's true. You don't need permission, right?

So let's begin. Okay, so we've addressed the fact that the first Canadian hip-hop single is Mr. Q's Lady's Delight, which we've all just heard. And that was released only weeks after the Sugarhill Gang's Historic Rapper's Delight. And it's a bit of a copycat.

But can we begin with DJ Ron Nelson? What can you share with us? I think he needs more flowers. I know he's got lots of flowers, but let's give DJ Ron Nelson more flowers. We did touch on it off the top. But please, more about Ron Nelson and what he did for hip-hop in this country and even more specifically in this city, the T-Dot. No, for sure.

I mean, if there's no Ron Nelson, you know, Ron Nelson, his background is Jamaican. And Ron Nelson actually, you know, I teach out of Ryerson or X University where his show, the Fantastic Voyage program, he hosted it for many years, beginning in the early 80s. And so Ron is, what I appreciate about Ron, and we are going to give him his flowers while he's here. So Ron actually, you know, you had people that had ideas.

I want to be a DJ. I want to be a promoter. Ron studied radio and television arts at Ryerson X University, okay? And was able to essentially use and exploit the resources that were available to him, which is, there's this thing called Campus Community Radio. I'm a student at Ryerson X University studying radio and television arts. There's this Campus Community Radio station attached to my university. I'm into hip-hop.

Let me do a show and get artists to come in, play fresh new singles, 12 inches that come out, invite and do it. So for that, I appreciate him. Also, too, I would say from a promoter standpoint, you know, people are going to concerts, you know, you're going to shows, going to live events. Without Ron Nelson, there is no hip-hop scene, arguably, in Canada, never mind Toronto, because he was the first guy, like,

I used to hang out at this venue called, you know, the Concert Hall. Sure. Yeah, the Masonic Temple down at that nearby Young and Ballore. Yeah, 888. Is that 888 Young? Is that the – Young and DuPont. That's right.

Yeah, right at Young and DuPont, exactly. And, yeah, so all of the first shows – Davenport, not DuPont. Not DuPont, right? Is that DuPont? Davenport. Davenport. Davenport.

Davenport. Yeah, right, Davenport. Yeah, yeah. And I think – is it also 666? This is an entire show in itself, the concert hall. Yeah, the concert hall. Yeah, yeah. Because there was this whole thing around 666, devil worship, you know, whatever.

There's the conspiracy theories, you know, tied to that whole thing. And it is a Masonic temple. It's like a masonry. So there's all these hip hoppers that have these stories of like stumbling into the upper room and there are masons, you know, doing some mystical shit up there yeah yeah yeah a lot of theories right so anyways ron as far as going to shows anybody it's kind of like in every scene in the punk scene in the indie rock scene there are promoters that are like out there in the trenches doing shows some make a lot of money others make none but they're getting artists in from touring artists

and bring them in from New York to perform in my city, which is Toronto, which is the epicenter of Canadian hip-hop culture and history. So Ron was the guy. He's that guy. Most of the seminal shows I've done, it's at Ron Nelson shows. You know, as a guy who didn't grow up listening to hip-hop,

I mean, I wouldn't say didn't listen to it because I did for a little bit, but for a guy who wasn't entrenched in that scene growing up in Toronto, when Canadian hip-hop was mentioned in the 1980s, Ron Nelson's voice, or name rather, was always the first name mentioned. And no disrespect to anybody else who was in the scene then. But the fact he was able to host a radio show, promote gigs, I mean, he was an enterprise.

But it's just unfortunate, as you mentioned, Dalton, that there was just no money in it back then. So he finally got frustrated and said, well, I'm tired of putting all my own money down to bring in these bands from New York and wherever and just walked away from it. And that's kind of sad, really. But the good news is, is that younger kids came up and they started taking over and they started writing about it as you did. And they kept that scene moving forward. And well, then we can skip ahead to 2010, but I think we should probably wait a little bit. Well, hold on, hold on. I'm stuck. Go ahead, Cam. Yeah. And I want to add a piece. I have to add another piece, right? Before we get into the question is a lot of the early, so Ron, yeah, I'm not exactly sure why he left. I know

it's frustration. The scene just getting muddled and weird and pseudo commercial, like, you know, like the feelings, why you attach yourself to punk or, you know, rap, it's, it's protest music. It carries a certain energy to it, you know? And I think that was kind of, that was a bit missing. I think that's one of the reasons I've never really actually asked him why he left, but I think that's what anyways, I have to drop this before we move forward is also to a lot of the earliest hip hoppers okay they were roller skaters okay okay and sound system operators so here's the thing i was a roller skater back then and what happens is all of the early mcs or master of ceremonies they come out of a roller skating tradition so the same guy you know k-force uh, that coined the term the T-Dot,

you had a sound system called Sunshine Sound System. They used to spin records at roller skating rinks. So this is where youth at that time, they're heavily influenced by funk music, okay, and are roller skaters. Before there is such a thing called hip-hop happening in Canada, in our city, okay? So Sunshine Sound, JC, Tony D, you know what I mean? Brother Different. Brother Different was this white guy.

He was a white guy in a very black music scene. They would call him Brother Different. You know what I mean? Like, who's this white guy? He's different. He's Brother Different, okay? And he knew the culture like he grew up in the black community. White guy, Brother Different.

I got to shout him out because I haven't seen him in who knows how long. The roller skating scene, huge in Toronto. Love it. Cam, your turn. I need several hours of this, man. Go ahead, Cam. The fine book, The Flyer Vault, I've got right here. I don't know if this was... This would have been

before his time because this is actually Gary's production but that has to be one of the first hip-hop shows in Toronto. Grandmaster flash and that would be what venue what venue was that that was at the concert hall that was in 1983 888 young that's before dj ron nelson yeah oh well here's the thing yeah gary because yeah gary uh what's his last name well there's two gary top and gary yeah gary cormier, Gary Topp. Right. Yeah, so they're OGs as far as promoters and, you know, the rock indie, like totally. They are.

Here's the funny thing. There was a show that I saw. This is ages ago. It might have been early 80s, but okay, you know what? At Ballure Station, Ballure Subway Station in Toronto? Yeah. So there was a venue in there called Heavens, right? Rock and Roll Heavens. Rock and Roll Heaven. The Dollar Emma now, I think. Yeah, Rock and Roll Heavens. And it's inside the heavens yeah rock and roll heavens rock and roll heaven the dollar now i think yeah rock and

roll heaven so it's inside this and again it's inside a subway station like it like it's like a heavy metal like rock and roll heaven it's like the weirdest thing ever right and i remember seeing run bmc this might have been 82 because i'm super young i don't know what i'm doing in a nightclub at you know middle school but that's a whole other conversation. But Run DMC, they played a gig at, you know, Ballore Subway Station, you know, right? And I remember because I was helping Derek, the promoter, bring records to the venue, right? Because I was, us kids used to use this. Yeah, help me bring records to the whatever, you know? Yeah, Run DMC, because I remember it like it was yesterday.

Hey, but pardon me if I'm wrong, Dalton. I mean, we, in the punk and metal world, the underground world, we had legit promoters. We had the Garys, and we had people like Jill Jill, et cetera, et cetera, Elliot Lefkoe, people who were legitimate people. From what I understand, in the early days of hip-hop, there were bad people, shall I say, trying to organize these shows, and sometimes the bands would come into town and get ripped off, I heard.

Can you speak to that at all? Yeah, well, yeah. And even though that's a very dicey, complex, sort of contradictory thing attached to the scene in Canadian hip hop, for sure, were there a lot, were there shows that they would advertise and say, hey, Run DMC is going to be performing in downtown Toronto. People pay their $30 or whatever, their ticket price admission, and then Run DMC do not show up, and then you're chasing down promoters for said $30.

Did that happen a lot of times? Yes, it did. So this is where the Ron Nelsons came in is that his shows went off without a hitch. In fact, some of the shows that I was attached to helping out, they didn't happen. But again, I'm a young kid just bringing records and just happy to be there. And some of the promoters that I was attached to, without naming names,

that show remained nameless, the bands didn't come. So it would be like, Heavy D and the boys are going to be in town, and Rakim, you know what I mean? Eric being Rakim, and then they're nowhere to be seen. because I don't think the shows were formally booked. I don't think the boss deposits were paid and then people are starting to,

you know, riot. And yeah, so there were a lot of scenes like that. Hey, and for the record that that happened in punk rock too. That wasn't just a hip hop thing. I didn't want to stereotype hip hop because it,

that what that was not the majority of the time. I know that was not the case. You, you dealt with very, very legitimate promoters in that in that scene too and i by no means want to say that there was you know a big scene of people ripping people off because although what happened in every scene i presume don't want to stereotype it so i apologize if it sounded like no worries yeah no shady promoters you can find them across music genres and across sectors. You can, absolutely.

Kit Dalton, can I ask you a question? One thing I've always found, and especially when, God, I feel like I'm now doing PR for the Fly Vault book, but one thing that I love is just these kind of atypical venues you see with a lot of smaller shows. And you saw this a lot with Punk as well, where were you going to stuff outside the downtown core like i think johnny dovercourt just wrote a great book about like a lot of clubs they were like in in etobicoke or scarborough north york or york region and why

not i'm curious when you were like hauling around crates all over the city were you going to like different parts of the city for shows uh No, not so much. I mean, there weren't, there weren't, it was mostly downtown. You had places, you know, like, yeah, Club Focus, the Party Center. The Party Center was a big one, right? It's, it's mostly downtown. Now there are things happening locally in different neighborhoods, like in North York, like you're having, but these are more like community center, like DJ Battles, you know, sponsored by CHRY in North York. CHRY, which is York University's community radio station, so you're having some of that, and then in my neighborhood, you had, yeah, in my brain, you

know, it's fuzzy, but Oakwood and Vaughn, what the hell was the name of the club? I should know this, this is close, but anyways, Oakwood and Vaughn, which is where a lot of the Caribbean community settled, you know, around Jamaica. So yeah, so you had, what was it called? The, okay, it's gonna come to me. But yeah, because I hung out there all the time. So up where I used to, you know, live, like, and still kind of live, there's a lot of stuff happening here. But it's primarily downtown Toronto, where a lot of the neighborhoods, people that are in the hip hop community from Regent Park, from Scarborough, from this neighborhood that they refer to as Jungle, which is Lawrence Heights, you know, Lawrence West

subway station around there. My neighborhood, Eglinton and Marley, Little Jamaica, coming from different parts of the city, Cataraqui, they're all kind of convening at this one place downtown. That's what it was for the most part. Could we just hyper-focus on a few artists

that emerged during the fantastic voyage era of dj ron nelson and can we start with the queen of canadian hip-hop mishy me like what can you tell us about mishy i know you knew her very well like what can you tell us about her because she's the first canadian hip-hop artist to get a u.s record deal deal, right? Yes, she is, yeah. So she was signed to First Priority Records out of New York. And First Priority is the label that put out, there's a song called Top Billin', you know? Milk is chillin', what more can I say?

Top Billin', you know? So by Audio 2. Yeah, Audio 2. So she signed to that label. So she is the first signed artist, you know, signed to an actual real recording contract in the U.S. that is from Canada, right? So this is why we refer to her as Canada's first lady of rap. Records, run by a proprietor, you know, an executive named Ivan Berry, who's from St. Kitts, the lovely tiny island of St. Kitts, Ivan Berry.

So she had put out some singles, really great singles, Elements of Style, and you guys, you know the rapper KRS-One? Of course. Boogie Down Productions. Yeah, Boogie Down Productions, and I remember us hearing a single that

they cut, that Ivan Berry, Beat Factory Productions put out, called Elements of Style by Mishy Productions, and I remember us hearing a single that they cut that Ivan Berry, Beat Factory Productions put out called Elements of Style by Mishy Mee, and KRS-One introduces her on the track, you know what I mean? So we're just like, whoa, KRS-One, hip-hop legend, Boogie Down Productions is introducing Mishy Mee, like he's on that single, and we're just like, whoa, you know what I mean? on that single and we're just like, whoa, I'm not new to this gamer rap, but I will kick it on the beat the same, perhaps. I possess what all the MCs lack, the elements of style, as a matter of fact. That's right, I possess, you battle me, I get stronger. Even exorcism, mission me, can be conquered. If I make a record, it is already sold.

Any record mission me makes will surely go gold. Definitely start at the top, got a lot to learn. You should start at the bottom and gradually earn. So I go up slow, so I know I'm a little lasso Cause what goes up fast comes out even faster So listen to the rhythm, the rhythm will soothe them MC's on my tail, I just try to lose them You can chill for a while or you can run for a mile

But I'll be still kicking elements of style Elements of, of, of style Elements of, up, upstyle L.A.S.S. Up, up, upstyle Sound of X disinfect, the tracks must be meaty Perfected by me, Toronto's one and only The beats sound sweet with my vocals on top Kickin' 487 and never gonna stop I don't take dives in the battle, I'm live

All you MCs start to quiver, cause I've arrived MCs who talk about me, shut up, I don't take dives in the battle I'm alive All you MC's start to quiver cause I've arrived MC's who talk about me Shut up I don't mess up Cause me and LA love her like her hands in a glove See I be talking loudly for the sound to bounce around me And this is my break So just crown me Creative rap generator Keeps this rap going Intelligence on my mind keeps my lyrics going A girl like this will always exist

All the way beyond eternity, rated the highest Standing on the globe, looking down at the rest Touch the mic, the crowd are impressed Cause it's elements of, of, of style Elements of, of, of style You wanna battle me, forget it, I'm a killer I kill MCs like Jack the Ripper Like Freddy Krueger, I'm pure terror

You wanna take me out, error, error Cause I'm an MC, I ain't no floozy. Your body gets rury. My raps are like an Uzi. Kickin' like a cougar. A better yet a cheater. And excellin' to where no mortal can beat her. Cause I'll put your head out for the three count.

One, two, three. You're out. Walking up the breakfast compete. Plus all these others are. Glory. Thank you. So making those connections to New York, which again is the epicenter, the cultural hub of hip-hop. But Meshimi famously would integrate parts of her Jamaican roots into the hip-hop. It was a distinct hybrid.

I mean, it really was noticeable that it wasn't just straight hip hop, but there was a reggae influence and Jamaican roots on display. Oh, big time. I mean, that's one of the markers of a, you know, Mishy Mee record is that, you know, she is a Jamaican background. Like a lot of these early, you know, like it's mostly your, it's like Jamaica, Guyana, you know what I mean? Guyanese, like maestro. Yeah. You know? And, and, um, but yeah, so, so you're seeing that she's, she's rapping in a, we call Jamaican nation language or Jamaican

Patois in, in, in, in a lot of her early music. Right. So, you know, Jamaican funk, Canadian style, she puts out the album and she's, she's, She's rapping and using Jamaican nation language and flipping back and forth between the popular New York style rap and going back and forth with that Jamaican nation language. And that's where I was kind of going earlier when I was talking about the influences of hip hop out of New York, but also the fact that Toronto is such a multicultural city. It is the biggest multicultural city in the world.

And it has the influence, the huge influences from the islands, from the Caribbean, from Jamaica, even from parts of South America, I would say too. And she was able to take her influence of her background and modernize it into almost the New York sound, if you will. I think the only problem in that that era was Toronto and Canada hadn't quite established itself as a hip hop force at that time to me it seemed like they were trying to find a sound that would work

and albeit they did indeed find that sound it was still you know experimentation you know somebody would sound like this somebody would sound like that and then i see mike in the background hold up the the album you know that we have to go back to 1989 and that of course is is maestro fresh west who who for a guy who you know like the the odd hip-hop song on much music saw maestro fresh west and was blown away right off the bat. No, no, totally. I mean, here's the thing with Mishy, too. When you talk about, I'm just going to give you some little known facts.

You know the song Jamaican Funk, where she's doing the Jamaican. You guys know the dance hall artist Shabba Ranks? Mm-hmm. Shabba. Shabba, you know? You're kidding me. So on that song, shabba ranks you know he's he's not as known then he's he's he's doing backup vocals you know what i mean on michi

i did not know that really yeah yeah you guys know shabba ranks all right girls girls i'm almost embarrassed you come on i actually played when jason portwondo was on the program i played him some shabba because he's a big fan of the, the dance hall reggae. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Shabba ranks and Adina Howard and other,

you know, they're doing background vocals on Jamaican. You know what I mean? And, and just the whole Caribbean influence too, before we jump into other stuff, but like, you know,

you know, when you talk about like, you know, Guyana, you know what I mean? Cause Neil, you said, you know,

the South American influence, like, so, you know, a lot of people talk about Jamaica because yeah, there are a lot of Jama Neil, you said, you know, the South American influence. Like, you know, a lot of people talk about Jamaica because, yeah, there are a lot of Jamaicans, you know, carbon aloe fish. I like I can list off a laundry list of people that happen to be of Jamaican descent. And then you have these, you know, from, you know, Guyanese, like Maestro is Guyanese. You know what I mean? Like, yeah, he's a Guyanese extract.

Also, there's a woman that her name is Lady P, a rapper. From here, Lady P, the letter P, so she predates Mishy, okay? So this is, again, you know when people talk about, like, the first female rapper? No, no, no, Mishy's not the first. She's the first to sign a deal and to get her stuff together business-wise. But Lady P predates Mishy Mee, right? And she was a local rapper. You know, we cite as, you know, Canada's first credible, you know, female rapper, Lady P. And she's also Guyanese, Guyanese background.

And there's another guy, you know, that when I was hanging out in Monica's record shop, you know, we talk about freestyle rhyming, like when you can make up rhymes, like spontaneous, you know, improvisation. Like I can make up a rhyme about Toronto Mike, Mike right now. There's this guy, Butch Lee. All right. Butch Lee is Guyanese. I knew Butch Lee. He could, Butch Lee could do a, write a three minute song about Toronto Mike, like right now. He's a freestyle rap genius. Okay. And so he's another guy of Guyanese descent, right? So you have all these like Guyanese, people of Guyanese descent, part of that early hip hop culture, which is kind of interesting in itself. Dalton, I'm

curious, as someone, again, I feel like I keep on wanting to go back and paint the picture of what these clubs were like. The fact that she was not only breaking barriers in terms of her sound, but also just being a woman in the music business back then, I'm just curious, were there a lot of females

in the scene back then and in the clubs, too? Because we see this across, again, across genres where, you know, it can be a bit of a boys club, like a lot of music scenes. Yeah, yeah, totally. From a performance standpoint, were there a lot of female MCs? Definitively not. Or just, like, in the crowd, too. In the crowd a lot.

Like, here's the thing when the reason we're going to hip-hop shows which is very different from now 2022 the reason you're going to hip-hop shows is to you know if you're uh you know a heterosexual male is to pick up women there's girls so there are a lot of women there yeah that's one part of the reason we're going we're dressed to the nines uh and we're hip-hop junkies but we want to go pick up women, okay? So that's what's very different from now. You fast-forward to today, and it's a lot of what we call like a bullpen. It's a bunch of machismo, a bunch of dudes, you know what I mean, smoking, doing whatever, but that's not the same energy for us. Also, too, but back then, we have to remember that you have something called slow jams,

you know, like not played so much in hip-hop, but it's like, you know, you ask somebody to dance, slow jams, we call them, you know what I mean, like that. But there's no such thing as slow jams, you know, like, you know, like not played so much at hip hop, but it's like, you know, you ask somebody to dance a slow jams, we call them like that. So, but there's no such thing as slow jams. Now you don't go to a school dance or a concert. And there's a moment where you stop playing hip hop and R and B, and then you ask someone to dance like they did. It's like, it's a relic of the eighties, you know? So how significant was let your backbone slide? Because that, that would, I would argue that's your first top 40 Canadian hip-hop single. You know, before you answer that, Dalton, can I just, again, as a guy from the outside of this world who really didn't know hip-hop,

it really was Let Your Backbone Slide that I saw on Much Music because radio wasn't playing it. And I saw that video. CFTR was playing it, though. Oh, were they? I'm sure. Kudos to CFTR. Okay, I'll take that back.

But none of the radio stations I listened to were playing it. The guys that I grew up with in Brampton, Ontario, had kind of experimented with the likes of Run DMC, Grandmaster Flash, Curtis Blow, some of my more and more friends that were more into the scene, like guys like, here comes a name drop, Curtis Blow, some of my more friends that were more into the scene, like guys like, here comes a name drop, Russell Peters, who was a huge fan of hip hop. But Maestro came along and blew this white guy from Brampton out of the water with the music. I loved it. And I was a Maestro fan from day one.

And I just, yeah, to start day one and I just yeah to start to sidetrack but to what Mike said how much influence how big how important was Let Your Backbone Slide to hip hop in Canada This is a throw down a show down hell no I can't slow down it's gonna go

First offense All the mix Okay party people in the house may I have your attention please in a moment the beat will be

played in many parts go on and break many parts very one two three

go on and break This jam is amplified So just glide And let your backbone slide You listen to every word I say Every verb you heard I play Snap the verb to break You try to cover

Or hover me a roast A fake, a flag that I run a post Toast, I'm the most D-E-F's how it goes No X's or O's Or tic-tac-toes L-T-D knows This ain't a game, I'm on a mission

Call me a hip-hop tip-tactician A rap is like a slab of clay that's shapeless Champagne, no shimmer, no glass, it's tasteless A universe without light is lightless That's why I always take time to write this I'm older than my hands before I start chiseling Could be a rain or brainstorm or drizzling Sun could be shining, sun could be showering

Practice makes perfect, I'm powering, flowering My lyrics are awesome and tuning, voluming Blooming and blossoming Blowing away blockades and barricades Make it black and blue from the blast to the blaze It's a blood sport, blood builds our back I make your vision go blurry while your brain goes black Into oblivion, beat from box to box

The bass rocks from blocks and blocks Let your backbones slide On the left, left, right On the right, right On the left, left, right On the left, left, right On the left, left, right On the right, right On the left, left, right Just let it slide, y'all

I don't give a damn Let your backbone quiver, man, oh man Watch your swivel Rounds untwine your spine while you slither It's contagious, a epidemic, and Don't give a damn. Damn. Backbone quiver, man. Oh man. Watch this river. Rounds of twine, your spine, when you slither. It's contagious.

I epidemic. And you try to look, you're cool, but it fell again. Rap scholar, soul academic. But like I said before, I'm not American.

It's who you are, not where you went. We all originate from the same descent. I make a lot of sense. Sense. And Pence gold. Gold. We're in frankincense. When I'm in France,

they floor me France. Frankly, this was the count is where I bank bank. At home, I make bills of brown for myself. In the states, green like the grass in the ground. When I'm in England, they pass me pounds now. I clock cash in every town, so I slide, slide. But nowadays, I'm trapped. So many suckers on my sacroiliac.

It's like a rapsack backpack. Give me some slack, Jack. Rap is like a jungle. We rhyme for rhyme. It's like a rapsack backpack Give me some slack, Jack Rap is like a jungle, we rhyme for rhyme It's like a vine to vine, swung line to line To mine, I'm colossal, use a mosquito I'ma play Tarzan, you play cheetah Cheetah, biter, love to forge Better yet, I'll call you Curious George

Cause curiosity, cold, kill the cat Can't hide, so glide to the side Let your backbone slide On the left, on the right On the side, let your backbone slide The key word is synchronism, yo Check out my whole boy dance to the rhythm Ay, this ain't forte, I'm coming double F Fortissimo, FF for funky fresh My DJ is LTD, mellow flex

You listen to the poetry, bitch, I'll project Vocabulary, golden beats from my rolling Stone cold lyrics with a microphone I'm holing Words are ripped, egos I strip I make sucker crews kick, take bandai flips I get busy, they're dizzy, they start to collide They should've stepped off, I let it slide But now they got brazen, dry like a raisin I glaze like a vase, I smash her like daze Until they realize, it shouldn't have ripped It's 89 y'all, not Beethoven'sth or 6th, it's a throwdown I'm conducting it, the cause of high rise

I'm constructing it, t'was once a thought pen and paper Now it's a tower, a soul, a skyscraper Let's get it out of hand, I've created a monster A musical monologue makes you wanna move with the maestro You feel high, so a set, the blend, the crescendo is nice Yo, I'm the guide, the rhythm is a ride So ride to the fresh side. And let your backbone slide. This is a throwdown. Yeah, I mean, it was hugely influential. I mean, it's the first real breakthrough, you know, rap single that has aatoon, Halifax, Nova Scotia, Montreal, Quebec, and you want to access, although music

polluted, you want to access hip-hop and get it spread far and wide, you want to get your video played on Much Music. Okay? So for him, it's the Much Music effect. It's a great single, it's danceable, and it's sort of crossed over, like, you know, commercial radio, everyone, people that

weren't even into rap music, Doug Maestro Freshwashed's single, like your backbone slide. But if there's no much music at play where the video is being rotated ad nauseum and making, you know, the charts like that, I don't know if the phenomenon is what it is. You know what I mean? It didn't hurt Dalton that that video was directed by somebody inside 299 Queen Street, right? Joel Goldberg. Yes, that's right. Exactly.

Joel Goldberg, right? And that's that kind of, you know, that sort of, we talk about this indie culture, like Joel, he works that much. And I'm not sure how they connect. I don't know the back story. I do. It's Electric Circus because Joel Goldberg is a co-founder, basically, of Electric Circus.

And Maestro, of course, gets, was it Stevie B, sees Maestro performing at Electric Circus. And he gets, of course, gets, Stevie B sees Maestro performing at Electric Circus and he gets him hooked up with his record deal. And then, so it's all through there. And shout out to Dwight Drummond, because as I shared on CBC with Jill Deegan, Dwight Drummond, who's working security for Electric Circus, is in both the Let Your Backbone Slide video

and Drop the Needle. I swear, Mike's going to be on deathbed someday. Any final thoughts? He just wants to make sure that people know that Dwight Drummond was in that video. And shout out to the cowboy dancer. I just talked to the cowboy dancer last week, and I just want to say

shout out to Kay Pompey. Electric Circus. Deep roots. And even with Maestro, Deep Roots. Yeah, yeah. And even with Maestro, just to further contextualize, I mean, and, you know, and there's music coming out. Like, there's singles, you know, like there's a vibrant underground Toronto rap scene, right?

But again, it doesn't have, it's not being able to tap that commercial pipeline and spread widely in a catchy, you know, production. Right. And then he has also to conceptually, I mean, why we have to give him his kudos, his props, is there's a concept behind it. It's not some arbitrary rap, new rap song, but he's a maestro, like a conductor in a symphony,

a guy rocking a suit in a cumber band, and what the hell? Who the hell's doing that? Sympathy in effect was just a mic check right yes that's right you know you know what i mean so yeah so there's a whole concept behind his artistic output and that separates it from the pack i i thought that he sampled was sampling like some of the like perhaps not the most uh credible like canadian artists like thinking like it was a haywire like Drop the Needle too.

It just pulls the whole ecosystem together. It's just staggering. It's incredible that that actually happened. I must have thought when Maestro was getting all that much music video play and I'm going to assume this is before

Rap City started or is it around that time because I would have thought being a hip hop artist and watching Maestro get all that attention, you get a little like jealous or think, well, how come I can't get my video played on MuchMusic yet Maestro's on every hour? So was there any kickback to Maestro for getting that much attention? Yeah, I would say no i think we sort of viewed his success as a success of the entire scene right because again because there's people putting out there's a you know there's a group called the get loose crew because i still talk to like in the 80s they put out some you know there's things that predate maestro and because of my because i still talk to the you know chris jackson i got to shout out chris

and he works out of the cbc uh you know d Gel, but yeah, so they're, you know, they put out the first, they put out the first independently produced LP, but, you know, back in the early 80s, like, and so there are all these things that predate Maestro and all that, but they just, from, you know, from business standpoint, there was no label support, Maestro got signed to a recording contract, right, LMR Records, right, would put out, you know, Stevie B, he's like, that sort of thing, you know, so he had a record contract, you know, LMR Records would put out, you know, Stevie Beat. He's like that sort of thing, you know? So he had a record contract, you know? LMR Records, I think it's based out of Florida. So he had a whole thing happening.

Joel Goldberg, who co-founded Electric Serious, there's a machine. And then also, and then Farley Flex, too, right? He has an actual manager. You know what I mean? Shout out to Farley Flex. Yeah, Farley Flex, right? Some people know him from Canadian Idol and whatever. Now, you know, I'm like a kid in a candy shop here and i apologize here cancel your one o'clock cam this

is gonna go all day okay so we're in this mix mr metro was a jam that would get pretty regular airplane much and was that before let your backbone slide from yeah good question geez yeah i can't i don't have the yeah just as far as the timeline the critical you know like the chronology there um but i could speak to the track because yeah please talked about how no no just this idea like mike it's like uh when i talk we opened up the segment about it being protest music you know and that's a song mr metro that is protesting pro-police brutality in toronto right right that's why it resonated that's a song, Mr. Metro, that is protesting pro-police brutality in Toronto. Right. Right.

That's why it resonated. That's why they shot the video. And kids of my, you know, ilk could relate to it because, you know, being a black kid in Toronto and police brutality all the way to today is a thing. And that song, yeah, it really resonated. The lyrics, like, police, leave us alone. You know, don't harass us. Don't antagonize us. Don't arrest us for doing, for having committed nothing, um, yeah, that's so

definitely, like, yeah, he should be in the, uh, you know, as far as sticking true to the roots of what rap music, hip-hop culture represents, is protest music, it's a song saying, it's almost a song, like, you have songs called F the Police, right, N.W.A., F the Police, J Dilla, right, uh, the late J Dilla, a song called F the Police, this was, like, Police, J Dilla, the late J Dilla, a song called F the Police. This was like our version of that, Leave Us Alone Police. It really resonated with me. I loved it when it came on

Much Music on the rotation. I feel it was before Let Your Backbone Slow. It was actually after I just did a fact check there in 1990, so probably about a year or so. That track actually won the Much Music Video Award. I don't know in what category.

I'm just on the Wikipedia. You should have won all the awards, Cam. It was amazing. I know we don't have Cam for too much longer. So Cam, I was just wondering, when are you going to ask that question? Was snow hip hop? I thought that's coming. Is it coming?

Well, we're in 1990. We're not quite. Okay, well then let me tackle one more act out of Toronto that really close to DJ Ron Nelson, of course, because it was recorded in his home studio. Okay. Can we talk about the Dream Warriors? Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

No, the Dream Warriors. I mean, so you want to, so, okay. So here's where I separate even the Dream Warriors from the pack as far as success. So Maestro is, is largely, you know, he's a local, local phenomenon. And what I mean by that is, so he's not having's a local regional phenomenon, very provincial. Blowing up here, you know, I guess, you know, you're selling gold here, gold platinum here in Canada. Now, Dream Warriors, on the other hand, they're attached to Ivan Barry from Dream, you know, Beat Factory Productions, right? One of the first sort of functioning, you know, hip-hop or urban music-centered labels. And they signed a deal with a fourth and Broadway, you know, like the UK, you see what I mean?

Right. Fourth and Broadway. And so their success is international, right? So they're kind of like, okay, we're putting out this music. You guys know the songs,

you know, wash your face in my sink. Right. Yeah. They have, you know, a handful of, of,

of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of,

of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of,

of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of,

of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of,

of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of,

of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of,

of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of ended up being hit. My definition of a boom-bastic jazz style.

Yeah, all songs that got airplay on the radio station I worked at, CFNY, they got their rotation, all those songs did. Yeah, yeah. So they're doing a couple things. One is they're appealing to audiences outside of here, okay? So in the U.K., they're selling a ton. I don't have the hard data but they sold a lot of units you know in the uk in particular right and also too as far as the innovation

behind rap music and hip-hop culture they're sampling jazz numbers right so there's like a quincy jones sample you know like so you're listening to you don't wash your face in my sink and and uh my definition of boom basic jazz style and you're hearing them sampling jazz music so there's not a lot of rappers at the time that are doing this thing and doing it successfully, you know, digging into the crates and sampling from some jazz masters. So they're doing that and innovating that space. What the funk is this? My definition of a boom-bastic jazz style. Here we go, are you ready for one another?

Dream Warriors noise is new, discover old Once again with a new blend, so telephone a friend Yo, Dream Warriors got this new song, it's dope, man! Compact disc to the prime is Optimus Fans are friends, I'm universal and cosmic. Concrete jungles abound. Stand by the speaker, you're smothered and covered up in the sound. You stand strong as you pump your fists.

I'm talking all that jazz. Now what's my definition? My definition. My definition. My definition is this. My definition. My definition. My definition. My definition is this, my definition When I kick rhymes, it's often said to do damage

Skin so strong, even Superman needs a hand So bob your head dread as I kick the funk flow This rhyme is subliminal, yet you don't think so I walk with a gold cane, a gold brain, and no gold chain Behind the truth lies, there lies a pair of fangs In the mix is where remorrials go Define if you will, but I know so There is no definition

My definition My definition My definition is this My definition My definition My definition My definition is this My definition

My definition is this My definition is this, my definition Right now I know it's a flow and just like a poet Your definition of me is definitely wrong Why must I try to lie and build an alibi When all you ask is just for me to be me Replace a replaceable replacement with this Relax, relax, relaxation, boombastic My name is King Lou, mine is capital Q

Bags of mosty water, search to find my definition My definition, my definition, my definition is this My definition, my definition, my definition, my definition is this. My definition, my definition, my definition, my definition is this. My definition, my definition, is this. My definition. I sought beauty through the dust of strife I've sought meaning to my music addiction Arise, awaken, we have need to reverse

A plague has befallen us, no time to rehearse This rhyme speaks, this speaking has spoken This rhyme will not change things, it needs to be changed and rehearsed You find caskets in my rhyme baskets. All right. No definition can define the what's my definition. My definition. My definition.

My definition is this. My definition. My definition. My definition. My definition is this. My definition. My definition is this. My definition. My definition. And they're sampling Definition, the TV show. But that's the Quincy, isn't that the Quincy Jones?

Isn't that? Yes. Yes, that is. So that is, yes. Yes. But we all, yeah, even put a name check in the title. Cam, I almost want you to drain your swamp before we lose you. Cam, I almost want you to drain your swamp before we lose you.

I was going to say, Dalton, because you still hear those, especially that first, can't forget the second Dream Warriors album. I remember there was a few videos, like California Dreaming and whatnot. Why do you think they didn't have a longer career? Because they just seemed like they ticked so many boxes. And as Neil mentioned, I mean, also like had that multi format hit where you, you'd hear them on CFNY, you'd hear them.

I remember hearing them on like CFDR, like they were, they were everywhere. And then just as the nineties went, they seemed like they were like well situated. And then they just kind of faded. Like what, what happened to them? Just at least in terms of like selling more albums and like more,

more records and stuff. Yeah, totally. I mean, I think like most groups and soloists we were talking about today, there's kind of like this, you know, Andy Warhol, you know, the Andy Warholian 15 minutes of fame. So I think I could apply that

to most of the people we'll talk about today and have talked about is, they went in another direction. They were working with like doing more reggae, more reggae influence. So they were recording Beanie Man and trying to change their sound a little bit. So they kind of veered away from that whole jazz kind of jazz influence. And yeah, it didn't really gain the type of traction that I think they would have imagined.

They also added another group member who I talked to to this day, Speck, this South Asian fellow. Day in and day out, he rapped on a couple of tracks. He was a new group member, so they switched things up a bit. But again, it didn't quite resonate in the way that some of their earlier material did. Yeah, they almost seem like they're between eras because they don't, to me at least, seem like an 80s unit, but they don't seem like a 90s unit either.

But they're a Dililla soul type like i would say dilla soul tribe called quest-esque you know like diggable planets right right that's right yeah sure yeah and diggable to diggable planets another band they were sampling jazz and doing it well you know um so it's very few but it's very few rap ensembles or soloists that are just you know you know mining the jazz vaults and diggable planets. And DJ Premier from Gangstar, he's sampling a lot of jazz as well, you know? And then what happened was sampling was banned. You had to pay to sample.

Paul's Boutique. Maybe this is going in a different direction, but what your take, Dalton, how did that change and how did that affect hip hop when you couldn't sample anymore? Oh, it's affected, you you know rap music to this day I mean some people when you talk about some of the best producers you know as far as producing the musical backdrop to a lot of these great hits they sampled records right you mean so

maestro from maestro to Dream Warriors all of the people you're citing all all of the musicians in the Canadian rap canon, they're sampling, they're sampling from other source materials, right? And you have to pay for it or you get sued. So that's why for, in my humble opinion, it sounds as rich and profound as it does. You know, if you could take something from a jazz record, a gay record, and then you put it in a pot and your beat machines and all machines. So whereas now, you know, like the economics behind that doesn't make so much sense. I mean, there's, you know, yeah, the economics behind it

just doesn't make so much sense to be forking out all of these big bucks to songwriters and publishers that have nothing to do with the culture. They're going to make any money. So that's one of my theories as to why Neil, as far as a bit of a downward spiral, as far as the artistic integrity of some of rap music, is that because of the sampling situation

where bands got sued, Biz Markie got sued, De La Soul got sued, and it was like a chill effect, a chilling effect. You know, like they say in the media and people just, they were like, no, if I sample stuff, no. Like, you could never make Fear of a Black Planet today. Like, it's make fear of a black planet today.

Like it's like we had that and it's beautiful. No, but exactly, Mike. Like public enemy, right? The bomb squad. So they're sampling from a gazillion sources, okay? Could there be a public enemy today? No. And that's my point, right?

Yeah. No, well made. They'd be on the dark net, I feel like, because they would just be way too litigious and would all be tracked. So we talked about Dream Warriors, rightfully so. Still love that. And now the legacy begins. It's as fresh today as it was then.

But King Lou and Capital Q do make a cameo in the video for Check the OR by Organized Rhyme. That's right. Oh, so is this a good chance? What's that hip hop? Hold on, hold on. I got to take a break. I think I want to go upchuck in my sink

and I'll be back. You guys, can you hold on? Not a fan of Ottawa hip hop. Tell us what you really think, Dalton. Don't hold back. So this was like Ivan Barry. You know, he's my buddy. Love him to death.

I don't know where he is. Maybe in St. Kitts. That's where he's from, small Caribbean island. But like, that was his attempt to now, you know, you have this sort of white rapper phenomenon where it's just like, they, you know, people are saying that, hey, you know, rap is now, as it does, it appeals to everyone, right? Like in one of my books, it's called Hip Hop World. I say, you know, it's a hip hop world and you all are just living in it, right? Because hip hop now is like, it's the biggest selling music form. We all know this, you know, so you a hip-hop world and you all are just living in it, right? Because hip-hop now is like the biggest selling music form.

We all know this, you know. So you can be into heavy metal and country classical. It doesn't really matter. But like rap and R&B are outselling everything by a country mile. So this was anyways Ivan Barry, who was the proprietor behind Beat Factory Records, his attempt to say, hey, a bunch of frat boys and white kids are into hip-hop and they're buying everything. Hmm, let me cook up this scheme, you know,

this white rapper group or something from Ottawa, and see if I can make some money. And it fell flat on its face. But it did produce Tom Green, which is, you know, one of Canada's greatest comedians, comedic exports, which is great. But he needs to, yeah, keep his day job as a comedian, you know what I mean,. The rap was whack. Would that have been pre-

Beastie Boys? Not pre-Beastie Boys. No. It would not have been pre-Beastie Boys. Maybe more, instead of Beastie Boys, I'd be more like... Who's Gas Face? Who's the...

Third Bass. More like a line with Third third bass, I'd say. Okay. I ask that because the Beastie Boys were probably speaking, you know, maybe a little out of line, but the Beastie Boys introduced hip hop to probably the biggest white audience in America and North America. You can't deny that.

Right. But was it? It sounded good, though. Oh, yeah, I know. They had, you know, Rick Rubin, one of the greatest producers of all time across Iran. So they had people behind them, Russell Simmons, that knew what they were doing

and knew how to make good, you know. So their debut album is off the charts. You know what I mean? It's crazy. It sounds ridiculous. You know what I mean? When we listened to that, we didn't even care what culture, it's crazy. Like, yeah, it sounds ridiculous. You know what I mean? When we listened to that, we didn't even care what culture they were.

We were just like, that shit sounds ill. That interests me because Fight for Your Right to Party is such a college doofus song. I thought that hip hoppers would be insulted by it because it's just catering to the, I don't know, middle class, uh, mid American white kid. It's a bit like Elvis Presley, right? Taking black music and serving it up to a white

radio. I guess so, but maybe not as tactfully. I thought it was a bit of an insult to hip hop, to tell you the truth. I loved it. I'm not gonna lie to you but i thought boy if i was a guy living in scarborough that you know was trying to get his music off the ground he's very serious about it and along come these three jewish fellas from brooklyn writing about fighting for your right to party and girls and i don't know i just i found it found it. Paul Revere. It was cheesy and it didn't fit. But you know what? I think what it revealed is there I think they have like roots in punk or something like that. Yes, they do.

So I think it was an attempt by them to sort of reel in their roots, you know what I mean? Which didn't work for me at all. But I mean, because it's not even a good you know when you make a song like that, it's not even a good rock record. Like it's just terrible across the board I thought it was sort of It reminded me of Weird Al at the time

It seemed like a novelty song Like a parody song But guys, and BC Boys Because we just celebrated the anniversary I think yesterday the release of Check Your Head But let's just shout out Talking about sampling and great hip hop albums Let's just shout out paul's boutique okay

so yeah that was the frat boy one licensed to ill okay that gets them like a number one on the record sales charts and all that okay wow big deal but it's paul's boutique is the one you keep going back to okay so and i realize cam i realize you're going to disappear in a minute so please do you have a snow question why do you think I want to talk about snow brother Bill tip me off this is just a simple yes no question for Dalton snow is that hip hop like what he does

absolutely not it's not hip hop informer there's this whole controversy now in the reggae scene fraternity around a band called Soja that won the uh grammy award for best bunch of white guys yeah a bunch of white dudes and i think you know and so you know so you know so snow is uh he's the he's the catalyst you know i think behind

that like you know not unintentionally right and you know white guy from starborough i think he's an irish background as well darren o'brien darren o'brien you know and it's just like and he the thing is you know he's he knows how The thing is, he knows how to mimic. He knows how to mimic. He mimics. The Jamaican accent does it well. So it's kind of like a novelty. Here's this white guy from Canada, from Scarborough,

who can mimic some of the best of the dance hall, how we utter our phraseology. And then it just blows up, you know what I mean? And then he becomes the problem problem, now here's the issue I have with that, is that you have all of these now Jamaican artists in Toronto, and bands of, you know, the culture, as far as the heartbeat of the culture,

that made no money, that are in relative obscurity, and so I think that those feelings were coming out with Soja, saying, hey, wait a second, reggae is Jamaican music, and we do it best, you know, like, that's my background, and then some random white guy from whatever saying, hey, wait a second, reggae is Jamaican music and we do it best. That's my background. And then some random white guy from whatever is making

all the money and selling all the records. That's really weird. Let me ask you straight out. Snow, aka Darren O'Brien, who is of course a Torontonian, is that cultural appropriation when he records Informer with Patois?

I think the more critically minded would say there is 100% cultural appropriation, and then there's also a bit of cultural appreciation, right? So he's not somebody that degraded the culture or, you know, exploited it in that way. Like, he had a genuine,

you could see he had a genuine interest in the culture and in trying to perform the culture, but some of it feels like a it. It feels like it feels like a parody. It feels like a weird Al Yankovic of reggae because, you know what I mean? You're not Jamaican. You know what I mean? So it's kind of like, oh, sure. No, no, that's just it. It's kind of like, let's say you're I'm doing reggae tone, but I'm not Spanish speaking. I'm not a part of the Spanish speaking diaspora, Latin accent. And then I'm you know you can participate

any it's the culture is to be participated in by everybody okay that's not what i'm saying but what i am saying is you you have to be be very careful with uh very careful yeah because it sounds to me years later like a sort of weird al yankovic weird thing when i listen to it because my background is jamaican right and you think of rob ford at uh whatever you know rob ford at state queen i think also i think also at that time we've touched on a few times where much music was just so such a ubiquitous influence too it has the whole visual element and i remember like the video where he's so kind of skulking around he's in the jail cell and just like a lot of the imagery

is just like dude like come on like i know it's a parody and then he had also done some he had also been in and out of uh i think you know like prison time and stuff like that yeah but i think it felt like it was they were playing that up a bit you know i'm from the streets and i hang out with a bunch of jamaican people and it's you know it's very vanilla ice sounding the story yeah it's the he's he's it's the vanilla ice of reggae you know what's the it very Vanilla Ice sounding, the story. It's the Vanilla Ice of reggae. It's not that much different as far as they went to number. Because Vanilla Ice went to number one on the Billboard charts, as did Vanilla Ice.

And Vanilla Ice is disingenuine. It's not good. It's not good rap or rap purists or people even remotely interested in hip hop. It's not that great. But he samples. What is it? The under pressure? He has a great catchy, again, back to

sampling. Yeah, it's that sample. It's just, yeah. You know what else? Not hip-hop. I gotta bounce. Cam, peace and love to you, my friend. See you, Cam. You can listen to the rest on...

We'll see you on Twitter. I'll tweet at you. And he's gone. Very quick, recent example that I... We'll see you on Twitter. We'll see you on Twitter. I'll tweet you. So, okay, so. And he's gone. Very quick, recent example that I, not hip hop, but when Rude had the big hit, no, Magic. Magic had a big hit with Rude. That's another local artist.

Like, that to me never sounded right to my ears. It sounded like they were mimicking reggae. It's weird to me. Mike, it's weird to me. Mike, it's weird to me. It's kind of like this. Let's say we're not talking about reggae or hip-hop and it's let's go back to punk, right? Because I appreciate punk. I brought this guy, Don Letts. He's a filmmaker

of the audio dynamite. Yeah, I brought him. Sure, worked with the Sax Pistols along. Yeah, the Clash and all that. So he's that guy. Clash, he did all the documentaries, Westway to the World. So punk to me is an attitude, right? i'm i'm punk because punk is an attitude right it's not a music genre it's not some 41 like that's not punk to me right um so although you know they dabble in punk but so the idea in any music genre like if somebody like me i kind of just come in and i'm just like yeah i have a hip-hop background a reggae background uh you

know disco funk background and it's just like yeah man, man, I'm going to start a punk band, and then we're going to just enter the scene. We haven't paid dues. Our music doesn't even sound like it's punk sensibilities. It's not really saying anything. That's what these magic, rude, and it's like, okay, you dabble in the music. Is that like hardcore good reggae, like a good reggae song? I would say absolutely not. Now, you know, great pop

sensibilities appeals to pop constituencies, but I'm into reggae, and it's just like, that's weak. That's watered down. It's wishy-washy. It's sanitized. But that's what the charts want. That's what radio stations want. That's what the people

who sign bands want. They don't want original. They want watered down monog uh uh monog monogenous that's not the word i'm trying to anyway they're trying to find music that's safe right you know because safe sells and you know when i worked in radio whenever we wanted to play or add a band called say ministry into rotation they'd say no because it's too loud if i can cut back for a second, Don Letts, I know very well, met him a couple of times in Toronto for the film festival, as a matter of fact. Don Letts was a DJ in London, England. He spun a lot of reggae and house,

the Jamaican house music, a lot of ska, and The Clash and The Pistols used to go to his club nights and listen to the music because they were heavily influenced by reggae and ska and dancehall. That's what I'm trying to find. And so that, along with what was going on in the streets for white culture, they brought it together, created that kind of punk rock. And that's kind of where I saw hip-hop going to the likes of Maestro and and and and Cardinal Official and even getting to Kish and all these people but then you know and and I wanted to talk a little bit about 97 and the Juno Awards before we talk about what's going on now with hip-hop because I think one of the most significant moments in hip hop in Canada was what happened with the rascals at,

I believe the 1997 Juno awards when their award was given out pre television performance, pre television. It wasn't given out on TV. That's what I'm trying to say. And the manager of the rascals rascals out of Vancouver, by the way, their manager, the band, the group, they called out the Juno Awards for what they were at that time. And that was a white-based system that did not care about ethnic music

of any sorts in this country. And it changed things. You want to comment on that, Dalt? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that is a seminal moment in Canadian hip hop history, because it's essentially the rascals. I was actually the person I did, I conducted like their first like print interview back in who knows how when, because you know, the brain is getting foggy. But that's my relationship to the manager like salt guy because you know we have had this great relationship because i was like the first you know like you come from vancouver you want to promote your new uh group or band in toronto which is the epicenter of canadian hip-hop and uh i think that you know they got calls but i was like the first their first interview you know and when i interviewed them it was at a downtown

toronto hotel and you know who was sitting in the room? Chaos, right? Because they were friends with Chaos. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Kevin, yeah. They recorded something on Top of the World. Yeah, so Chaos was there. But this is a pre-Chaos Chaos. He wasn't well-known at all.

Just hanging out? Yeah, you know? Wasn't he hanging out at The Edge, brother? Wasn't he hanging out at CFNY? Or did I just misremember that? I met Kevin when I lived in Vancouver, when I met Chaos. I saw him here in Vancouver. I feel there's a Chaos, like, CFNY connection.

He listened to the radio station. I know that, but I don't remember. Maybe he hung out with Hadley or Chris. I don't know. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So this idea of, you know, if you want to celebrate hip-hop rap music in this country

and you have an award show like the June Awards, like America has the Grammys, and, you know, so as far as the performance piece, like, so when you have an award show like the june awards like america has the grammys and um and you know so as far as the performance piece like so when you watch an award show typically that carries over a couple hours you you're hoping to see like first of all live performance right so it's like hey the best rap performance album single to see like a rap performance on a two hour or however long show, okay? A national show on the national network, too. The national network, right? So that was clearly not happening, okay, right?

Despite some of the great hip-hop we were producing, okay? All second to that is as far as, yeah, these, you know, the rap awards not being televised, right? So, you know, when you read the credits, the rolling credits before you throw to commercial, this is where you're seeing hip-hop. That's rap recording, and then you see it in the credits. Given away earlier this evening. Exactly, right?

So who wants to be sort of relegated to that, stuck in that weird purgatory where people aren't really being able to acknowledge or engage your culture? So they had had enough. They're just like, we're selling records. We're doing well. This is ridiculous. We're not performing on the show. Neither are we being presented live on air. So it's just like, we've had enough. We were not interested in this award.

Brother. I'm glad you brought that up. Thank you. And Northern touch, by the way, still a banger. Play it right now. Play it proud. Fantastic. Yo, we notorious, ain't nobody can't bang with us. Rascals checkmate, carting down the thrust. Chaklare coming down with the Northern Tux. Why you people wanna bang with us? Ain't nobody can't hang with us. Rascals checkmate, carting down the thrust. Chaklare coming down with the Northern Tux. Tux, baby.

Check the lingo, we spread throughout the atmosphere. So distinctive, no other style comes near So when you hear you got to peer over the ledge To get a glance to know who is the man with the talents Flippin' the words like my body on the apparatus Sky's the limit so we're bound to break through the stratas With these rhymes and the classics Forget the fads or the fashions

Step in some make on the microphone A yo world domination the base of the foundation No time wasted Firewalk we trailblazing Burn to the next destination Flexin' on this world exploration Teamed with the base of the foundation No time wasted Firewalk, we trailblazing Burn to the next destination Flexing on this world exploration Teamed with the best in the nation Yes, and who that be?

Custom design, fine rhymes and to salary All the way from T-Dot to the fan city all-star Hoos boys, freak you like a fantasy Word up Yes, from the northwest Van City Oh, desire I like chilling

Monday night, watchin' Me and Danny O at the Sky Dome When it's in town, my peoples know I just be regular, so haters start dissin' But steady, reciting my lyrics up with my In they mouth, they swallowin' Talkin' bout they need some oxygen People need to know, shotgun, they movin' no slow-mo

Into women like a gyno, Carlo Dollars in fists now How you gon' feel when you see the six triple O? We'll start the pill, swap dog appeal Y'all know the deal, if you don't, that's my man, Y-Dog He'll tell you the circle, right to spot T-Dot, represents like my Northwest connects Rascals, they make the cash flows, indeed

Yo, I down the gold, schlager, big C, puffed up Chocolat with the mouth colorful like the currency We ain't no Taurians, ha! Ain't nobody can't bang with us Rascals checkmate, carting down the thrust Joc, clear coming down with that northern touch Why you people wanna bang with us? Ain't nobody can't hang with us Rascals checkmate, carting down the thrust

Joc, clear coming down with that northern tiki-touch Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm running with these villainous cats, sup Fly to die, bruh, kicking it all about rapture You heard a killer cast like this Smooth, dominating session Like hoes get bucks, so when I'm flexing Dillinger, running up on ya, so what you thinking? I got rhymes like politicians, steady politicking

Stick a move, I don't age, yo, I ain't fooled Then maximize my time like we fighting in the spotlight I hate them, who wanna battle, you must be tripping Whack niggas should be serving ass whipping We fortify and get live with five niggas Then expand, cross season over land Outro Music Superstars, you know who we are, the notorious superstar. Just to see you smile and enjoy yourself, I know you up in here to release your doubt. So I'm frontin' with the loot while others got the wealth. I'm in the V.I., undetected like a stealth. Yo, you out of shape simply, you out of figure.

Can I zoom, zoom, lick a shot, you pull the trigger. Club scene, honey, I'll show you something much bigger. When it's said and done, you be like, ooh, that's my nigga. Started from scratch, a baby blue-eyed figure. She's a gold digger, on to kill figure. We'll see you next time. Whatever suits you, it's all the same. This kid's got game. We ain't notorious. Ain't nobody can't bang with us. Rascals, checkmate, cardinal and thrust. Chaklil coming down with the northern touch. Yo, why you people wanna bang with us? Ain't nobody can't hang with us.

Rascals, checkmate, cardinal and thrust. Chaklil coming down with the northern touch. Northern touch, baby. Yeah. So that's like, what did you say, 97? So I'm just really rapid fire a couple of pre-97 things really quick. One is recently I put together a micumentary. Whenever I have someone on like a DJ Ron Nelson or a Mishimi or a Maestro Fresh West, I always ask them if they know where Rumble is. Okay. So we could talk about Rumble

and Strong and Rumble particularly. I'm legit concerned DJ Ron Nelson got a tip that maybe Rumble was actually homeless in downtown Toronto and we're trying to find them so we can help them out. But what can you tell us about rumble yeah yeah rumble uh so yeah he's one of those uh yeah those early uh innovators like we were talking about jamaican culture for one um he was able to take his background his jamaican background and in and inter you know interweave that in his artistic output and he actually you know when um when mishy me's uh single was it yeah 1987 elements of style. When that came out, it came out on the same album on the beat factory record,

which is the first kind of, you know, real kind of rap album, you know, come, you know, like, yeah.

So he's on that same record, you know what I mean? Cause yeah, he's on that same record, uh, rumble and strong. And then he also too strong is an interesting thing with strong, too strong is like,

he's a DJ, white, you know, white DJ, right? Yes. And, uh,

so people always say, Oh yeah, who's strong. What's he all about? But he was a really good DJ dj you know so it's rumble and strong right right this white guy who's like his dj producer kind of guy um that nobody really talks about right because it was it's kind of like talking about eric being rock him but then you know so there's like an eric being rock him so rumble people remember rumble but there's like rumble and strong i mean what happened to the white guy who was the DJ producer guy? Right. But anyways, yeah. So I, from what I understand, he might've, I don't know

if it's some issues tied to mental health or falling on hard times, but that is the rumor in the Canadian, Canadian hip hop community. We're kind of like, we need to come together, rally, you know, and, and, and find this guy. And if there's something we can do to help better his life circumstance, because he is a, you know, he's a, he's a kind of low key icon. He's a good guy. He sort of, uh, yeah. You know, that's, that's the feeling in the community. Listen to, listen to safe. Okay. That's, this is why, you know, we, by the way, what is,

I would love to know what strong is up to now that you mentioned it, but rumble had that great like solo stuff post rumble and strong that just, just hit. What were you going to say there, brother? Safe was very dancehall. That was very dancehall. That was about gun violence. That video was like that. Right.

Keeping the dancehall, keeping the club safe. You know, that song. But gun violence. Keep the guns, you know what I mean? Like, yeah, keep them out of the clubs. Yeah. You could be the world, you could be my mind Just as long as my baby's safe from harm tonight You could be the world, you could be my mind

Just as long as my baby's safe from harm Now follow me, I went to a dance Don't buy chest, I lay with me spas and my light steel and dropy road black sound Just a mashup, a party pair, sexy gal in a skirt, a wine in my day No people did a pose of them jewelry, outfit, track suit, drop a fang, some ballet They danced in a Rambo quad, that's a tree, now me just a want me red stripe and feel irie Me just a want my car and then a gal touch me, I say wait, are you the rock I'm up in my blimp? Outro Music I broke out about 3.30, yeah It was between two rival packs See, the most I've had is a crack In the neighborhood, you see the game

I done tried to check them out of the party But then someone followed, let them have who's it Bam, bam, everybody just hit the floor Bam, bam, reggae music didn't play no more Bam, bam, how many people get licked? Man, I'm sure, but when you go on track, stop Everybody get up and You could be the world

You could be my mind Just as long as my baby's safe from harm Tonight You could be the world You could be my mind Just as long as my baby's safe from harm. With me P, Dem, and Lambert, and Jason, Tarant, Sound, did a control this here session. All over the city, man, people did a come play, Celebrate, grow up, and they all a act,

And shepherd boots out tall, and plays like they come. Can't forget, knock, dance out, clap, and dance to the rhyme, Yes, dance to the rhyme. Saxon, fast shoe, and even cocks, And they just a play pure, Shabba, Frankie P, and Ninja Man, Admiral, Bailey, Tiger, and they one pop a song. The vibes did a cool, we just a play pure shopper Frankie P and Ninja Man and my Bailey Tiger and they want papa's son The vibes did a cool we just a have pure fun we just a rock to the reggae with Guinness in we hand

And that's a pretty long and yeah one by one but suddenly fight break out by the system I go pull out a knife and stab up a man the man break dream just take out a gun I chew out the dance and you have the dance on your ear, pop pop, everybody just hit the floor, pop pop, make the music and play no more, pop pop, many people get lit, me no sure but when the gunshot stop, everybody

get up and... You could be the world You could be my mind, just as long as my baby's safe from home tonight. You could be the world. You could be my mind just as long as my baby's safe from home tonight. You could be the world.

You could be my mind just as long as my baby's safe from home tonight. I wanted to ask you the question regarding hip hop and the color of one's skin. Did it matter? Yeah. I would say because, you know, rap music is a historically black music as far as its origins, right? So you can trace it back to West African griots, to Jamaica, Kool Herc, the DJ that relocated to New York, you know what I mean? And through those parties, those legendary parties in the Bronx. So because it's a black cultural output, right? cultural outputs, right?

So what happens within that is if you're not a part of that culture, attached to that culture, not black, not well-versed on black culture, you know, how do we say, there might be more barriers to entry, is what I would say. So if you're like, if I'm doing, if I'm performing a black music that comes from, you know, it's a, you know, I use the example of reggaeton or dancehall, right? It's like from Jamaica. It's a Jamaica-specific, that's where it's birthed, it's a, you know, we, I use the example of reggaeton or dance hall, right? It's like from Jamaica. It's a Jamaica specific. That's where it's birthed its origins. That's where some of

the best parts of the music come from Jamaica, period, period, point blank. That's not open to debate or arguable. And then now some white guy from Saskatoon, Saskatchewan is like, yeah, I'm the best dance hall artist in the world. Right. So create some issues there, you know? Right. And this is where the, you know, know the we were talking about earlier cultural appropriation like so if you're non-black and you enter the culture this distinctly distinctly black music output you have to be coming with some shit a to impress black people themselves because we're like shit we grew up on this shit like me i'm a you know we talk about this living archive like, we grew up on this shit. Like me, I'm a, you know, we talk about this living archive. Like me, I grew up in the shit. Pardon the French.

I grew up in the culture. So you can't come to me with something that doesn't connect to black music traditions, doesn't connect to black people. I'm not going to be that interested in it, because it's such a strong, rich, black artistic output, you know? The reference points, the language used in the music, the music that, you know, sample, it's from black music tradition. So that's where the issue comes, you know. The reference points, the language used in the music, the music, you know, it's from black music tradition.

So that's where the issues come, you know. So if you can just enter the culture and you have nothing to do with it, you don't understand it, you don't want to understand it, you can't, you're trying to mimic it, but it sounds like a third grade version of the original black artifact, this is where you get into the issues. Well, now I need to bring up somebody who's

also an FOTM. Next stop, the motherland. Yo, kiss you get into the issues. Well, now I need to bring up somebody who's also an FOTM. Next stop, the motherland. Yo, Kish, you went to Africa? No, Japan. Hey, Kish, yeah. Kish is an interesting guy. Yeah, he went to my wife's high school, North Toronto, which is kind of, yeah, it's in the north, I guess,

northwest part of the city, like Yonge and Eglinton. It's more, how do we say, like more moneyed. It's more the northwest part of the city, like Yonge and Eglinton. It's more, how do we say, more moneyed. It's a more moneyed kind of upper crust. Upper middle class. Yeah, upper middle class environment and not diverse at all. But Kish not a black man, we should point out, of Japanese descent. Andrew Kishino. And he had some good flow to him.

So, I mean, Order From Chaos was, although he did disclose to me, he made like, I don't know, 25 bucks off that album. Like he made absolutely nothing. Like nothing. Brother Bill's making more for this appearance on Toronto Mic than Kish made from Order From Chaos. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's right, that's right. No, when your earnings are in the negative integers, it's not a good thing. But yeah, no, he, I think so, Kish. Yeah, I respect him. He's awesome. yeah yeah yeah that's right that's right no you're when your earnings are in the negative integers um it's not a good thing but yeah no he i i think so kish yeah i respect him he's awesome he's doing i think voiceover work and you know lots of voiceover work yeah yeah a lot of work but you know so him i think part of him uh you know he was managed by farley flex i think if if were to be perfectly honest i think it was part of the uh uh you know get a rapper that's not like to to appeal to non-black,

to white culture sensibilities, although he's biracial, I think he's Japanese and Caucasian, I believe, right, yes, and so I think that, I think that was some people that are trying to be savvy and slick with the music industry to say, hey, Vanilla Ice blew up, and there's all these non, you know, snow, like there's non-black people that are making a lot more money than black artists performing black music so different than you know we talked about elvis presley elvis presley just essentially co-opted things that you know bo diddly you know the chuck berry you know he's bouncing around on stage like it's all stuff he co-opted from black culture the black music this is what we know for a historical fact and right so it's not that much different from you know benny good goodman you know the king of swing so you had all these white figures in the history of popular music

that were performed they were doing these the near identical musical output as the black community members that birthed the music genre or the movement but then they made like a hundred million times more money okay right so so i think some managers are trying to be slick there and say hey let me uh like pat boone yeah like pat but they would have made uh they the i find that the people who are the groundbreakers didn't make any money because there was no money to be made and then yeah it was taken over by say the big record labels owned by people who grew up in Oakville, not in Scarborough, whatever, Jane and Finch. They didn't grow up there. And then they homogenize it

and they make a ton of money off it. But you got to take heed to all to know at the end of the day, when it comes to credibility, no one's going to remember Organized Rhyme. People are going to remember Meachie Me. You know what I mean? Like they're going to remember Organized Rhyme.

Just know the only person who cares about Organized Rhyme is Toronto Mike. You know what I mean? Like they're going to remember Organized Rhyme. Just, no, the only person who cares about Organized Rhyme is Toronto Mike. You know, they sold no records, but Toronto Mike bought, he bought that. I actually didn't buy it. I'm joking, I'm joking.

Okay, because that video got heavy airplay on Much Music, which we've talked about how influential that was. Yeah, sadly and unfortunately it got heavy rotation. So one thing, can I just mention quickly

being a Brampton guy and living in Vancouver, the reason why I brought up the color thing too is because I'm noticing nowadays a lot of hip hop coming out involves the South Asian community. And they're kind of tying their own little sound in it with a little bit of Bhangra mixed into it. And I'm starting to hear that out here.

I don't know if you are, but I wonder if you could speak to that at all, because I think that South Asian kids relate way more and way better to black hip hop than they would 70s white heavy metal. Yeah, yeah. I mean, hip hop now, it's a voice of this generation. So what you're going to have is,

you're going to have South Asian community members, the indigenous community, the aboriginal community in Canada. You go if you when you when you spend enough time like as I have, I've worked, I have I'm an ally to to to the indigenous community politically. And you go on, you know, Six Nations Reserve or whatever, like rap music reigns supreme in the indigenous community. Reigns supreme. Okay. And I think one part of its appeal lies in the fact that it is protest music. People want to protest something. They want to speak out.

They want to use their voice. It's, it's a, it's a music with a message. We want to say something. We want to say, yeah, it could be celebratory to say, hey, Toronto is the greatest city in the world. Let's make a rap about it. Toronto TTC is terrible, whatever. But this is what... That's every Drake song, isn't it?

Pretty much, exactly. Either that or emotional just broke up with someone, whatever. Very emo. So the South Indian community, I think they've gravitated toward... And actually, I have this new client, which I don't even really...

He's doing numbers. Like, he does kind of, it's very urban music, electronic rap. He kind of, it's blowing the hell up. Holy cow. He's South Asian, you know. Well, shout him out. What's his name? I think young people, yeah, sorry?

Shout him out. I'm not going to, I can't say it on here because until the contracts are signed. Okay. Like, he's going to be a client, yeah. Any day now, like, I think within a couple business days, yeah. So, Dalton, we are in about 10 minutes we're gonna lose brother bill here so i do want to get to radio because brother bill is a radio vet longtime radio veteran so one more name and then we're gonna get to a radio station that debuted here in 2001 and talk about where you

would hear this music on toronto radio but the one artist i just want to shout out, also FOTM, but I want to talk about Danio. What can you tell us about Danio and Dear Hip Hop? What a jam that is. Yeah, yeah, totally. Yeah, so Danio, yeah, he's a great baseball fan, Toronto Blue Jays. Huge baseball fan. And yeah, no, he came out on the

Beat Factory Rap Essentials. Going back to Ivanberry, you know, Beat Factory, the record label, they put out these compilation Ivan Barry, you know, Beat Factory, the record label, they put out these compilation albums, basically, you know, of singles. Rap Essentials. Rap Essentials, exactly. So Danny O, that's the first time I caught wind of him,

was on the Rap Essentials. And the song was called Dear Hip Hop. And the song is a banger. It's an amazing rap track. The bass, the production, fantastic rapper. And I saw him actually, I think, perform as part of the promotion of Rap Essentials for some I saw him perform. But he's part of a larger kind of Scarborough movement. You know, the Monolith, there's a group called the Monolith.

There are groups in there, YOK, you know, IRS, all these groups that come out of this Monolith. Kind of like how you have like the Wu-Tang Clan, you know, and then there's all these solo artists, GZA, Raekwon, Inspector Deck, you know, the RZA, Old Dirty Bastards. So they had the monolith, which is all these offshoot groups came out of there, you know, YOK and IRS and Danny O's solo projects. And yeah, he's just like, he's a good dude. And he's very articulate about the culture. I really appreciate that. Oh yeah. Cause my tracks hacks the wackness Raps, they flap as dry as in habitats of a cactus Fact is I'm raw skilled Cause God filled me with the spark to be so fat Rappers need an elevator to keep up with me My objective's to be selective with my projections

To carry up beyond the barriers of new dimensions So help me slit the slack, bros Who act flows, the pack blows To crack foes, sweeping your reach from plateaus With senseless scripts, the lips is paraplegic While the level of my lyrics leave the legion with lesions From when you gave me birth, I remain true to your rule Your phonies try to hold me back like teachers did to them in school

My promise to punish poetic plagues won't end Cause ever since I was ten, you've been my best fucking friend Dear hip-hop, I love you till I die To taste the grace of your embrace, I will try My mission is to utilize my skills on the mic To rid your other losers, abusers, and stereotypes To taste the grace of your embrace I will try My mission is to utilize my skills on the mic To rid you of the losers, abusers and stereotypes Dear Hip Hop, I'll love you till I die

To taste the grace of your embrace I will try My mission is to utilize my skills on the mic To rid you of the losers, abusers and stereotypes Now Redrin, I comprehend your frustration Affiliation, your evaluation from those outside your nation Lack education, corrupt critics, voice views with no validity Claiming you're the blame for violence within facinities And promotion to penetrate privates how they depict us So they deface our albums advising parents

with stickers Hoping that our shit will die out They remind me of niggas in French class Not knowing what the fuck they talking bout Our expressions exemplify reality Through autistic talents found in all municipalities Cause hip-hop, you're growing like dicks during corner flicks Your pricks be on my back like slaps when I used to get licks Man, even Pops gives me no props, not understanding Why me and you were branded to be lifelong companions No power possible could prevent me to proceed

To profess rhyme till death like a Muslim does the creed Dear hip-hop, I love you till I die To taste the grace of your embrace I will try My mission is to utilize my skills on the mic To rid you of the losers, abusers, and stereotypes Dear Hip Hop, I love you till I die To taste the grace of your embrace I will try My mission is to utilize my skills on the mic

To rid you of the losers, abusers, and stereotypes Now bro, I know who hurts you most besides those who are ignorant and not articulate. It's niggas who figure shit niggas when they travel down gravel roads of trend interpretation. These imitations cost no fascination but contemplation of how they came to commercial composure. Probably writing rhymes upside down on a crucifix the way they crossing over. Unworthy benefit reapers sporting sneakers and beepers. While I be catching bags under my sights from sleepless nights writing for life because i refuse to feel the effects of being on my material memorabilia no matter how they bring you down i'll stand your

ground anyway because h-i-p-h-o-p is in d-a-n's d-n-a my tracks acts niggas like questions i've messed it all styles to make rappers look whacker than me playing basketball Sorry for those who represent what you resent Like OJ Simpson, I'm absolutely 100% hip-hop And that Rap Essentials Volume 1, that's where you get your debut singles of Choclair and Cardi. That's right, yeah, yeah. Cardinal, I think it was Naughty Dread. I think that was the single, Naughty Dread, on that.

And it's the first time you're hearing in a commercial sense, yeah, you know, early Choclair, Cardinal. cardinal those groundbreaking that compilation is groundbreaking they should reissue that compilation i've been very i should track him down you know reissue that please bad man which part I'm a You know my flavor greater than a you or a you Who can match flows besides me? Comparing maxes My style is catchy Cause when you hear it you love it But I'm dissing Is it to you that I'm a bummer?

If not then s*** you Cause it's you who I'm reciting Two, three, four Chorus Drop the drums Now you're identified Verbs amplify Check my beats around

They go inside Come inside my mind And leave Freddie's victim Sticking them is quicker than evicting them Plus I like licking the sternum Hurrah him is irrelevant It's still you so feel me And when we're nice you're partied From the early crack of dawn until your ears finally go D-E-A-F, yes who's reciting?

Waiting to kill your squad quicker than you think you could blink Think faster or else we'll be the new material, for sure land Charlene couldn't help defeat what I be bringing Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah God, I got a thing to do with your son like so God, I got a little fish out your spot, my friend You're so fresh, I'm asking why Open shot, my son, my son like

All the big sons must die, why, why, why do they walk them seats dry? Try to dis a f*** like Cardinal, they know that them so die Motherf***er, know who's the best, sippin' eight, not Cardinal It ain't nobody else, seepin' through the cracks, makin' stacks for nothin' Lookin' fresh with five bucks on the side, fifty in the sock for fronting A pearly white style for camouflage with a decent A pro-handled revolver for the five-o in the precinct Instinct alone drives the player to the holes

Those showing signs of fear might fantasize where I close Roaming in the wildlife, making hits with echo Stuck will touch the walls, it's the target The aim, aiming, MCs without checking it, it's pimping Fuck a nine, I crave swans, so whosoever want test, just check it out Straight up we roll as a unit, unified forces, which use law, apply, see it in my eyes I'm f**king mental more than physical destruction, not the supplies to rhyme with and check my verse for construction So then I'll open shop, yeah, right, right, right

Guess I'm fresh, but they asking why Open shop, I'ma shop they askin' why Open shot, my choppa sound like All weak sounds must die Why, why, why? Why do the white gals see shit? Try to diss a c**k like Cardinal But they know that dem so die Who is next? The cream from my eargasm

Cyanide couldn't match, poisons only on tracks Like the end of why I track stocks And knows my flow spills over kills Most of competition amputates the rest Sex changes for those who just got their checks Manipulating emotions with scriptures Charisma hits the mixer Touching your spots like Twister

And it's the my brigade And you will never be a part of a new phase of alpha space And changing the range, criticism from skepticism To Vernonism as I'm the runner of my busy net? Hell yeah! Fear none and hear none Both sides of ignorant rhetoric Debit skills and credit freshness for my presence

Incandescence for my aura Lights up for stage for miles Surrounding neutral to your brain like electrical grounding Found in styles elementary to genius But there's no whooping my tank The FOS crew is my thing Got an eye off his side, it's my, my, my tank The FOS crew is my thing Got a night off inside this line, line, line Get so fresh, the B-Skid ride

Open side of myself, I sound like All the weak sounds of my tonight All the weak sounds of my tonight Got a all up inside It's mine, mine, mine Get so fresh The glass can't lie Open shop

My shop I sound like Yeah All the returns Must die Mine, mine, mine What do the walk And see it dry?

Try to do some Like Got it all Working on that So dry Got it all up inside jordan is like jordan now jordan now jordan now come again now before we lose brother bill let's talk a bit of radio

tell me a bit because i've kind of dove into this with farley flex and some others and mishimi but tell us about the birth in 2001 of Flow 93.5. What was the promise of performance, and how do we feel about it all 20 years out? Yeah, yeah, I have no feeling. I mean, so it's around, so again, back to that whole protest ethic, it's basically in Canada, there's no commercial urban radio station, okay, which is just a, that's a colossal failure on the part of, you know, just Canada in general, the country, the CRTC.

It's insulting, for sure. It's ridiculous, right? community of artists and artisans that are performing R&B, rap, reggae, you know, African music, some, you know, Latinx also, like, you know, and there's no real, like, credible vehicle to play any of this music. So like you guys, we spent all this time talking about great, you know, maestro, Dream Warriors, Mishimi, etc. And there's no real commercial radio station that's going to play like a lot of this, like, of this. So that's insulting, right? That's just a slap in the face to people like myself and people on the scene. And then, yeah, then Denim Jolly is one of the leaders, proprietors of Milestone Radio.

They had to undergo all of these, apply to CRTC, get rejected, get declined. They even shot a video called Can't Repress the Cause, where they rallied all of these Lillian Allen and musicians, maybe Rumbles, and I have to think back, but everybody's in there. There's a bunch of rappers in there, and R&B singers in that song, and they're, basically it's a song to say, it's called Can't Repress

the Cause, to say, hey, CRTC, we need a black urban radio station in Canada, and it gets played on much music. Like, we just shoot a whole video tied to protesting CRTC's decision to not have an urban radio station in Canada. And it gets played on much music. Like you just shoot a whole video tied to protesting the CRTC's decision to not have an urban radio station. And then finally it gets greenlit, Float 90.5.

You know, it's a bit of a disappointment because the promise on paper, the idea was to play, represent different music genres that make up the urban music ecosystem, right? So it's not just top 20 rap and R&B from the U.S. and, you know, with Canadian content, obviously, 30%, but it's to play, like, you know, a lot more, you know,

there's great R&B happening here, great reggae, great dancehall, great soca, great calypso, great, you know, African, you know, music from the continent, soukous and, you know, highlife. That was what was promised. We were going to play the, how do you say, like black diasporic music and not just top 20 R&B and hip-hop that you can hear anywhere, right? It was to play Soca, R&B, dancehall.

That didn't so much happen. And as far as the spoken word programming, like the current affairs spoken word news programming was not good, not really there. So it just became just another cookie cutter kind of like, okay, top 20, you know urban radio station or whatever it was so from a from an artistic from a integrity standpoint and i was quite critical i was i was working for now magazine which is uh canada's uh largest uh

michael hallett was on this show two weeks ago oh michael hallett exactly yeah michael yeah because oh yeah he was he was there for sure like Like, I mean, you know, he left that whole north by northeast. Before I go, if you don't mind my two cents about why I think flow didn't work. Um, again, it debuted in 1991. Was it? 2001. 2001. Okay. Well then I'm, I'm, I'm pretty darn sure that one of the reasons why it didn't go is because the idea that you're talking about, Dalton, is exactly what it should have been.

CFNY, the station I worked for in the 1970s and 80s, was similar. They were playing music that nobody else would play. Now, I'm not saying it was hip-hop and things like that. We did have people like deadly Headley Jones who did overnight shows from clubs and played, played a lot of dance hall, a lot of reggae, a lot of hip hop. But overall the radio station, then you could do that. You could play hip hop and dance hall overnight from a club. And then during the day play new wave like Duran Duran and stuff.

I think the concept for flow was a great one to involve the community and play all different kinds of music. The problem is radio by that time had become so homogenized and was so used to just giving people what they wanted become the McDonald's of the business. In other words, when you go to a McDonald's in Moscow or Japan or Jamaica or Toronto, the Big Mac's always going to taste like a Big Mac. Do you know what I mean? Whereas they can't throw in dance hall here, hardcore hip hop here, this there, because you lose the identity of the station.

And I know that sounds like BS, but that's, I think, programmers thinking. And I know that the gentleman who started that radio station had every intent to follow through with what he thought would work. But I think the advertising dollars just weren't there. And unfortunately, when that starts happening, you have to start making some adjustments and you have to start making some adjustments and you have to start coming more towards the center. And, you know, as we know, the people that are the most passionate about it, they don't want that shit. They want this to go hardcore or go home. And so it made

it tough for him. And in a business decision, the guy was probably losing so much money. and in a business decision, the guy was probably losing so much money, they had to make those adjustments. My advice would have been a community radio station should have been started probably out of Scarborough or somewhere downtown where it's represented, and that community station should have represented the hip-hop scene. It should have started in the 70ies or eighties, not 2001. That's ignorant on behalf of the CRTC because they're just a bunch of white folks sitting in Ottawa that just want country music across the country.

That's exactly who beat them out for that 92.5. Not surprised, not surprised at all. But it was country music at a time when hip hop is this new form that's capturing the imagination of, you know, of young people, of youth, of youth of multicultural constituencies yeah so you don't want young people you don't want multi like i'm i'm based in toronto it's the most multicultural city in the world and so yeah i want to see we so yeah if you program to those constituencies you're going to do quite well from a bit yeah morally it's the right thing to do and then you're going to make a lot of money because morally the audiences are there for it right so yeah so yeah great disappointment though Dalton the only other thing is before I go

is I will say that you know mad respect to you and everybody who keeps the hip-hop community alive in the city of Toronto across Canada because you know I did I worked with in the punk rock community forever and tried to be involved as much as I could. But you know, radio has not, I mean, first of all, kids don't listen to radio anymore and who can blame them? What the hell are they going to listen to? How many times more are we going to hear Hotel California and how is that going to influence a kid from Scarborough? You know what I mean? Radio is dead as far as promoting that kind of stuff goes. It's now all about internet. It's all about Spotify. It's all about community figuring out how to keep that movement

moving forward. And I think with intelligent people like yourself, Dalton, and Mike, to your credit, to give a platform for us to have this discussion, it doesn't hurt. It just helps. No, for sure. And even when we, the other thing too, cause we're gonna wrap up, but I have to also shout out cause there's some seminal Canadian hip hop like that. I just have to say, you know, cause people, I want people to dig a bit deeper too. Like, so, so there's a production group called the production trio called the

grassroots. And they put out an album called passage through time in 1999. I'm just, I want your views to go check it out because this is some of the best stuff that perhaps didn't get that commercial attention. Ghetto Concept, you guys have probably heard about, right? I used to work with them, you know, writing bios and stuff, but they won a couple of June Awards.

Ghetto Concept, Citizen Kane, Jeff Duke, right? Again, this is fantastic Toronto hip-hop that perhaps didn't do as well commercially. Main source, you know, Citizen Kane, this type of stuff. Grassroots, ghetto concept, yeah. You know, I want people to kind of really seek out that stuff that maybe didn't get the type of attention it deserved. Yeah, absolutely. Can I shout out Swollen Members out of Vancouver who were, I think, a fantastic band.

I played them out here. Only one song, Lady Venom. band. I played them out here. Only one song, Lady Venom, but I mean, one's better than none when I work for a commercial radio station that plays nothing but white music and the Beastie Boys. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There was a whole scandal. I remember when they, there was a year that Cardinal, everyone in Toronto and people in the scene thought Cardinal was going to win the Juno Award and then the Swollen Members won and everybody was just like, Swollen Members? Who the hell are they? But because they're out in Vancouver and Toronto's the epic Members one and everybody was just like, Swollen Members? Who the hell are they? But because they're out in Vancouver and Toronto's the epicenter, so we're just like,

Swollen Members? What? Cardinal's the man. He's doing a track with Tron Paul and Baby Boy Sound Crew and his own singles and they're just like, Swollen Members. But then as we learned more about them, we said, no, they're pretty talented but I don't know if they should have beat Cardinal that show at all. But Dalton, I'll tell you something. Cardinal official out here

is not really that well known other than when he comes goes on CTV and is a judge for America Canada's got talent that's when we see him we don't see him otherwise so whereas swollen members are entrenched in the hip-hop scene out here yeah no for sure Canada is is kind of uh the opinions are this far wide and disparate you know, it's very regional. And then also, too, with the West Coast, too, there aren't acts doing, like, so Toronto's were, you know, the vast majority of the hip-hop success. So outside of Rascal, Swollen Members, you know,

you can point to a couple examples, but it's all out of Toronto as well. It's very Toronto-centric, so it's a very complicated debate, yeah. East Coast, West Coast. Yeah, I was going to say, brother, do you have to leave us now? I do. I have to go. Thank you very much. Great to meet you, Dalton. Yeah, I was going to say, brother, do you have to leave us now? I do. I have to go. Thank you very much. Great to meet you, Dalton. Yeah, nice to meet you. Me too, Mike.

Do you have a hard stop right now, Dalton? Or do you have like five minutes to do a quick one? I can take five. Okay, five. Peace and love to brother Bill. Dalton stuck with me for five more minutes. So we talked about Flow 93.5 debuting in 2001. So just to name check a few of the 2000 acts, one of whom is an East coast guy. I just want to name check classified because I just, I just, uh, talked about him with decisive, decisive was here last week and we were talking

about classified. So shout out to classify. We talked about chaos and of course, Canaan was a, is a guy I wanted. Do you want to? Canaan? Canaan? Canaan. Yes. We talked about Chaos. And of course, Kanon is a guy I wanted. Kanon? Kanon, yes. My apologies, yes. I've worked with most of these people, right? And this is where you asked me this idea of being just kind of tied to the scene. I've worked with most of these people, right?

So as people left the scene and moved on and moved to the suburbs or whatever, I'm still – so Classified, I did some PR for one of his albums. Also, you mentioned, yeah, chaos. I've done work. I've worked with him on his albums.

Love them. And you mentioned somebody else there. Well, I don't know, but I will mention right now real quick, because this is the two year anniversary of his appearance on Toronto mic, but Shad. Oh, Shad.

Right. Yeah. Shad. He's a good guy. My, my view on Shad. Great. He's really smart.

He's a really smart, passionate, articulate guy. Right. I think he's a good guy. My view on Shad, great. He's really smart. He's a really smart, passionate, articulate guy. I think he's one of those regional success stories, right? Again, people outside of Canada don't know anything about Shad's music, okay? So you see what I mean? Like, so in America. His music, you're right, you're right. We have Shad, you know what I mean? Like, so he's a local phenomenon.

He's a great guy. And also with Shad, one of the kind of dark clouds over the Juno Awards is when he beat Drake at the Juno Awards. Everybody thought Drake was going to win the award for best rap recording, and then Drake got shut out. I think Drake got six nominations at that Juno Awards and won nothing. And Shad beat Drake at a time when Drake is one of the top rap artists in the world in America and he couldn't win in his own backyard. That created a lot of really bad feelings. Let's finish with Drake then because we're talking about hip-hop in Canada

and let's face it, perhaps the world's biggest hip-hop artist of the day is a Toronto guy and a proud Toronto guy. So let's close. If you don't mind telling us, uh, is Drake good or bad for Canadian hip hop? And like, where do you go from here? When you kind of top of the mountain,

started from the bottom. Now we're here. Started from the bottom. Now my whole team fucking here. Started from the bottom. Now we're here. Started from the bottom. Now the whole team here. Nigga started from the bottom. now we here Started from the bottom, now the whole team

here Nigga, started from the bottom, now we here Started from the bottom, now my whole team here Nigga, started from the bottom, now we here Started from the bottom, now the whole team fucking here I done kept it real from the jump Living at my mama's house, we'd argue every month, nigga I was tryna get it on my own Workin' all night, traffic on the way home And my uncle callin' me like, where you at? I gave you the keys, told you bring it right back, nigga

I just think it's funny how it goes Now I'm on the road, half a million for a show And we started from the bottom, now we're here Started from the bottom, now my whole team fuckin' here Started from the bottom, now we here Started from the bottom, now my whole team fuckin' here Started from the bottom, now we here Started from the bottom, now the whole team here, nigga Started from the bottom, now we here Started from the bottom, now the whole team fuckin' here Started from the bottom, now we here

Started from the bottom, now the whole team here, nigga Always tell stories bout the man Say I never struggled, wasn't hungry, yeah, I doubt it, nigga I could turn your boy into the man There ain't really much out here that's poppin' off without us, nigga We just want the credit where it's due I'ma worry about me, give a fuck about you, nigga Just as a reminder to myself I wear every single chain, even when I'm in the house

Cause we started from the bottom, now we here Started from the bottom, now my whole team fuckin' here Started from the bottom, now we here Started from the bottom, now the whole team here, nigga No new niggas, nigga, we don't feel that Fuck a fake friend, we real friends at We don't like to do too much explainin' Story stay the same, I never changed it No new niggas, nigga, we don't like to do too much explaining Stories stay the same, I never changed it

No new niggas, nigga, we don't feel that Fuck a fake friend, where your real friends at? We don't like to do too much explaining Stories stay the same through the money and the fame Cause we started from the bottom, now we here Started from the bottom, now my whole team fuckin' here Started from the bottom, now we here Started from the bottom, now my whole team fuckin' here Started from the bottom, now we here Started from the bottom, now the whole team here

Nigga, started from the bottom, now we here Started from the bottom, now my whole team here Nigga, started from the bottom, now we here Started from the bottom, now the whole team here, nigga yeah totally with drake i mean one can't argue with his success right so he he is uh one of the top five artists on the planet and that's just a hard fact you know you know you have like bts and billy eilish and so he's been consistently like you know like yeah he in the weekend um and i teach a course down at uh ryerson x university called deconstructing drake in the weekend right and where we sort of talk about their success their marketing their branding and so his success in

inarguable you know he's he's uh sometimes we we get lost in these debates around um like who was the first person to come out and who is the first but it not, sometimes it's not so much about who was the first, but it's about who did it right. You know what I mean? Right. So with him, he did it the right way. As far as his business interests,

OVO and yeah, you can't argue success with him at the, you know, the, the underbelly to that is that I think people look to when they think of Canada and Canadian rap and hip hop, they think of singularly drink up, think about a singularly think about Drake and OVO.

So that might be a bit problematic as far as getting other success stories coming out of Canada. That's a bit of a dicey topic. If I read you right, it's like, you know, Drake is taking up all the oxygen in the room because he's this behemoth. And I think if you look at like streaming over the past decade,

he's number one, I believe like this, this is not top five. I think we're top of like streaming over the past decade he's number one I believe like this this is not top five I think we're top of the food chain here oh no for sure oh no he he's completely dumb he's broken so many records you know like the Beatles on on Billboard like he's broken demolished everybody's record and the here's the challenge now Drake is older now right Drake Drake is I think like 36 like he's older he's not a kid he's been doing this for a very long time so who's to be the next Drake? And that's this idea of sucking out the oxygen.

It's just like, look, Drake's been around for a super long time. He's like 36. He's a father. He's an old, you know what I mean? He's not a kid anymore. So he's had this test. So what else is happening in Canada? Why is it just this Drake situation for the last how many years?

What's going on in Canada? We should be cranking out Drake's widgets. You know, in a factory on in Canada? We should be cranking out Drake's widgets. You know, in a factory in Scarborough, we should be cranking out Drake's widgets. You know what I mean? It ain't happening. There's no other Drake figure. Tory Lanez has had success, press up,

but what's going on in Canada? That's the disappointment in the Canadian music hip-hop scene is that Drake's been a leading guy for ages, but that's it. What else is going on, right? Not to diminish, I mean, Cardinal official has done his thing, and there are others that are doing great work, but I'm just saying, like, come on now, right?

No, great point. Like, that'll be, you know, who's next, essentially? Yeah, who's next? He's been dominating charts forever. Right, since 2009, I'd say. Or Mike, but Mike, Mike, but shouldn't that have triggered, been the catalyst to exporting and producing all of these great rappers from Toronto like Drake, right? Drake is older now.

What is going on here? Real talk here, since you're at X University, I never know what we're supposed to call it right now. We need a name, okay, for your university there. But how much credit goes to Drake for breaking the weekend? Yeah, there's credit there because Drake and his team and Oliver, who works at OVO, one of the founders of OVO, they were sharing the weekend's music when no one knew anything about him. They were sharing his music on social media and on their blog site, right?

So then people are just like, who is this mysterious, anonymous, R&B, electronic kind of individual? Because nobody knew anything about Abel. So they are, you know, as far as his early success, it's our shareability. They did definitely play a role, 100%, because they were sharing it, right?

And at the time, he's dominating social media. So he's like, you know, tweeting it, and people are just like, hey, people even thought that it was Drake himself. You know what I mean? Because nobody knew anything about The Weeknd. They thought, is it an alias or pseudonym he's performing under? Like, what's going on here?

So there's an example, though. At least there's Drake helping to breed more success from the six, as Drake would say, the T-dot, as Sean would say. But Dalton, my goodness, uh, this was tremendous. Like if somebody listening wants to follow more of the adventures of, uh,

Dalton Higgins, how should they follow your, your life and times? Yeah, totally. Just get me on social media at, uh, Dalton Higgins and the number five,

right? So my name and the number five, that's where, uh, I, that's my pulpit, you know, on Instagram where a lot of my, uh, propaganda, right? So my name and the number five, that's where I, that's my pulpit, you know, on Instagram, where a lot of my propaganda, like that's my vehicle for that Instagram. So get me there, you know, and I'm happy to, you know, talk some more,

keep the dialogue discourse going, you know. Thanks for doing this. I'm glad I chose you as the subject matter expert for this important topic, which I thoroughly enjoyed this. Thanks, man. Hey, anytime. And that brings us to the end of our 1039th show. You can

follow me on Twitter. I'm at Toronto Mike. Dalton is at Dalton Higgins 5. That's numeric 5. Brother Bill is at Neil Talks. Brother Bill is really a Neil Morrison. Don't tell anyone.

Cam Gordon is at Cam underscore Gordon. Our friends at Great Lakes Brewery are at Great Lakes Beer. Palma Pasta is at Palma Pasta. Sticker U is at Sticker U. Ridley Funeral

Home are at Ridley FH. And Canna Cabana are at Canna Cabana underscore. See you all next week. Rosie and Gray Yeah the wind is cold But the snow Warns me today

And your smile is fine And it's just like mine And it won't go away Cause everything is Rosie and Gray Well you've been under my skin For more than eight years It's been eight years of laughter and eight years of tears

And I don't know what the future can hold or do For me and you But I'm a much better man for having known you Oh, you know that's true because everything is coming up rosy and gray. Yeah, the wind is cold, but the smell of snow won't speed the day. And your smile is fine, and it's just like mine, and it won't go away. Because everything is rosy and green Well, I've been told that there's a sucker born every day

But I wonder who Yeah, I wonder who Maybe the one who doesn't realize There's a thousand shades of gray. Cause I know that's true, yes I do. I know it's true, yeah. I know it's true. How about you?

All that picking up trash and then putting down ropes. And they're brokering stocks, the class struggle explodes. I'm I guess I can because everything is coming up rosy and gray. Yeah, the wind is cold, but the smell of snow warms me today. And your smile is fine and it's just like mine and it won't go away. Because everything is rosy and gray. Cause everything is rosy and green Well I've kissed you in France and I've kissed you in Spain And I've kissed you in places I better not name And I've seen the sun go down on Sacré-Cœur

But I like it much better going down on Chaclacour But I like it much better Going down on you Yeah, you know that's true Because everything is coming up Rosy and green Yeah, the wind is cold But the smell of snow Warms us today

And your smile is fine And it's just like mine And it won't go away Cause everything is rosy now Everything is rosy Yeah, everything is rosy and great guitar solo