Toronto Mike'd: The Official Toronto Mike Podcast - Vernon Reid from Living Colour: Toronto Mike'd #1278

Episode Date: June 22, 2023

In this 1278th episode of Toronto Mike'd, Mike chats with Vernon Reid, founding member of Living Colour, about the band, writing Cult of Personality, opening for The Rolling Stones, having the roof cave in at The Concert Hall and so much more. Toronto Mike'd is proudly brought to you by Great Lakes Brewery, Palma Pasta, the Yes We Are Open podcast from Moneris, The Moment Lab, Ridley Funeral Home and Electronic Products Recycling Association.

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You need The Moment Lab and Ridley Funeral Home, pillars of the community since 1921. Today, making his Toronto Mike debut, is founding member of Living Colour, Vernon Reid. Welcome to Toronto Mike Vernon. How are you? I'm Vernon. How are you? I'm good. How are you, Mike? Good. Where do we find you today? Are you in New York City?

I am. I'm here in Shaolin at the Dharma Lab. Nice. You're actually the second guest I've had in a row. I talked to Simon Law yesterday who is from soul to soul. And he was born in London.

Yeah, he was born in London, but then he moved here to Toronto. You were also born in London, right? I was. I was. St. Mary's in Paddington. Okay. Yeah. So how old were you when you left the Big Smoke?

I left Smoke. I was one and change before my second birthday when I was brought to the States. Okay, that explains the lack of British accent on you, Vernon. Yeah, I couldn't, you know, it's so funny. My accent is so Brooklyn. I couldn't do Cockney or Cut Glass if you paid me.

Nothing. I got nothing. It's one of the great ironies for me when I go to the UK. It's funny because what's the movie? Chitty Chitty Bang Bang? There's a movie where Dick Van Dyke does a Cockney accent and it's like the worst British accent you've ever heard. Oh, yeah.

People that actually speak the accents are very it's bad it's kind of because my family have a caribbean background so when i hear bad caribbean accents it's like you know and also but i think um i think regional accents are also very particular so if you hear a bad Chicago accent, you know, there are regional accents that are very specific. There's the Philly accent. In New York, there's New York.

They're different. The Brooklynese. I'm walking here. I'm walking here. Right. And that, you think about Boston. I mean, people from Boston, when they hear bad, they go ballistic. They can't hack it. It's like, you know, because there's a Cambridge accent. There's a there's a Southie accent, you know, and it's like, and if you hear it, it's like people default to the Jamaican accent. And there are so many different Caribbean accents that it's, you know, when you hear somebody supposed to be from Jamaica and they're speaking clearly

in an accent that's like from, that's Barbasian, you know, Bermudian or Bajan, it's like, you know Bermudian or Asian it's like eee so blah blah blah alright so very young when you moved to the states do you mind if I take you back here I think you'll hear the music I play you'll let me know if you don't but could I play a little

of something from the mid 80's and then we can talk about this sure why not here we go oh yeah yeah oh yeah Why not? Here we go. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Is this taking you back?

This is back. Oh, absolutely. I'll bring it down so we can hear your voice over top, but I'll keep it in the background. But what are we listening to? This is Landscapes in Alternative. That's the first track from Smash and Scatteration. The record I did with Bill Frizzell.

How did this come to be? This is kind of the first time, I would suppose, that Vernon Reed becomes a known entity. Yeah, well, I was playing with this band, The Decoding Society. Ronald Shannon Jackson's band, The Decoding Society. And David Breskin,

who is a producer, you know, produced, I believe, Man Dance and Barbecue Dog. You know, he known about Bill Frizzell and loved his playing and put us together to do that. And Ron St. Germain was

the engineer for it yeah so yeah alright smash and scatteration now I suppose it's difficult to find a copy of this today if somebody out there wants to grab smash and scatteration out of print I mean there's

there's a vinyl I think I have definitely have a vinyl copy somewhere yeah it was lovely there's a vinyl I think I have definitely have a vinyl copy somewhere yeah it was lovely it was a lovely there's some cool

stuff on that record well here let me play like 20-30 seconds of it because I think some people who you know know you

from Living Color will be surprised but let me just turn it up a little bit. And Vernon, I'm playing this jam, not just because it's the lead track from the album, but you wrote this song, right, Vernon? Yeah.

It's funny to hear that drum machine. I think it's a DMX. I think it's a DMX drum machine going back. And yeah, it takes me back. It takes me back all the way. And I think GR700. Don't have me nerding out on old gear. Well, I know you like to do that. I have to fake it.

I'll just nod and smile and just assume you know what you're talking about. Because I know you're a gearhead, right? Smiling and smiling have their place. Absolutely. So there you go. We start there. So here we are in the mid 80s so before we get to living color and uh look at my eyes what do you see that we're going to talk about that song and

we're going to get up to speed here what's going on with you but like what are your musical influences at this time so we're like in the mid 80s you're in new york you're you're you're working on this project oh man i mean I mean, I'm listening to definitely King Crimson with Adrian Ballou and Robert Tripp. You know, that Tony Levin and

Bill Bruford, you know, that version of King Crimson. Discipline, the rate from around the time of discipline listening to, you know, you know, listening to seventies miles, miles hadn't miles hadn't come back yet, but, but with P cozy on guitar, I was listening to Sonny Chirac, James Blood Homer, you know, so that, and, you know, still listening to

my rock faves, Hendrix, Carlos Santana, you know, still listening to those folks. I was a big fan of Adrian Belluto. I remember hearing him on the Talking Heads, listening to Talking Heads. I love Talking Heads from, you know, Fear of Music, you know, more songs about building some food. So, you know, Remain in Light. Remain in Light was just an incredibly important record at that time. Bad Brains you know so I mean but that's really early the Roar cassette so I'm listening to you know still listening to some of my

friends John Abercrombie some of the Fusion guys you know that I liked now kudos to you for spelling color correctly in the band name. Oh, oh, so you say. Yeah. You know. Yeah. Well, also, I'm a fan of the horror writer H.P. Lovecraft, you know, as well as some kind of combination of actually having been born in the UK. So some kind of combination of actually having been born in the UK and, you know, there's something outre about that U in color.

So that's that, you know, I think it looked cooler than just C-O-L-O-R. Well, we here in Canada appreciate it, Vernon. And I should point out, so this program is called Toronto Mic'd. And at some point, it'll get a little Toronto centric so I hope you have some memories of your various trips to Toronto one in particular but this might be a great time before we get into the Toronto talk would you mind I know

you've been asked this a million times but can you give us the living colour origin story here before we get into Cult of Personality sure I it really is is um you know i left uh the decoding society um and it was it was a funny it was a funny time period it was a funny time period in my life. Before I played with Shannon, I was kind of playing in local bands.

And I had a disappointment. I was in a band that was going to supposedly get signed to A&M. And that was a whole music business thing. And I was at Loose Ends. the whole music business thing. And I was at Loose Ends. And one of the bass players, because Dakota Society had two bass players,

it was unique, and it had Reverend Bruce Johnson on bass and it had Melvin Gibbs on bass. And Melvin had started playing, I'm jumping, but Melvin had started playing with a drummer from Texas. He said, you got to hear me play with this drummer right and um he's a friend of mine from brooklyn and we had like a little combo together so i went in and it was i was completely unprepared for what it was it was very

unusual music and heard a little bit of ornette Coleman, blah, blah, blah. So anyway, I wound up getting entranced by this composer. And I worked with him for about five years or so. And then my tenure with him came to an end. And I started to put together a small trio and we started playing around and it was kind of funny because it was you know I was imprinted by my

experience I was kind of had these instrumental things and they're kind of odd tunes and then I kind of started bringing in these songs that I wrote. And it was a funny time period. And I was doing half instrumental in these odd little tunes. And I was challenged by somebody that went to see me play.

He said, man, you got to make up your mind. What are you going to do? So I basically did this gig and i took out all of the tunes where with the vocals because also a little uncomfortable with singing and whatever right and uh and then a friend of mine jessica hagedorn is this uh writer academic from the philippines who had a band band that I was in called the Gangster Choir. And she was really pissed off because I took out these tunes, you know, and I was like, wow, okay, so maybe, maybe I should go in that. Maybe that's what it is, you know? So I started playing

around and with these, it these kind of as a trio. It was very, very uncomfortable, but I did it. I opened for John Cale. I opened for the Art Ensemble. It was a crazy spread of people that I opened for. I opened for Fishbones, very first gig in New York at Irving Plaza. Wow. And it was an interesting time period.

I was playing at CBGB's a little bit. And the band was going through, and at some point I said, I want to call it something. And I thought about uh being a child and when tv programs came in color they said this next thing is going to be the next program is going to be in living because color was a very new thing right you know I'm that old uh very new thing at that time And living color But then

Seeing living color Just looked kind of prosaic And then I said Oh you know I remember the story The Color From Space By H.P. Lovecraft And

I said you know what that looks cool C-O-L-O-u-r and i was like oh you know but i was also i was born in london they spell it with the u right right so so that's kind of where that came from and the first was bernie reed's living color because i was in a band called ron shannon jackson's ron shannon jackson decoding society so i was still kind of in that mindset and eventually i said that's weird that's not really you know that doesn't really happen so much in rock and roll so i decided it's just going to be living color and then um i met a guy at a birthday party my sister my middle sister i have two sisters right okay and um my middle sister dragged me after I had did a came back from tour with Decoding Society.

She literally said, you're coming. I'm going to a party. You're coming with me. And she, you know, and being a middle child, she's never aggressive. Right. Hardly ever. So when she insisted, I never see you. You're coming with me to this party and i was just like okay you know so i went to the party and it was a birthday party for a friend of hers and at the party they go to sing happy birthday and the place was packed but it's the only party where it's a birthday party's packed, but only one person sang happy birthday. I said, get Corey. Corey came out and he sang, just sang,

happy birthday to you. And he just had a beautiful voice. I thought he put the right amount of vibrato and, you know, was kind of, he sang it. He really sang it. And I said, man, you have a really, you have a really great voice. He said, oh, thank you. So he kind of, I said, well, you have a really great voice. Well, thank you.

So he kind of said, well, you got a number? You know, he wrote it on a matchbook or whatever. I took the guy's number. Yeah. And I went on. And then one day I went through all these variations of the band. There was one point there was a female vocalist, but I was writing songs from DK Dyson, the one on to, she started, was part of a band with Melvin Gibbs, the same cat I played Dakota side with, they had a band called I&I. And we were label mates for a time.

Yeah. And anyway, blah, blah, blah. So I called this dude up. And, and I played him some songs. And I already did some demoing, whatever. And he got into it. And then we wound up writing a song together called Middleman. And that's on the first, that song that we wrote together,

which we started playing it around. And yeah, so the origin story is like a kind of, it's got a lot of twists and turns. Sure. A lot of twists and turns. But don't bury the lead here. Don't bury the lead because a question came in from Canada Kev. When Corey was singing Happy Birthday,

was he wearing the body glove surf outfit? No, he was not wearing body glove. Come on. I know. Come on, dude. Not wearing body glove. That came later. I know.

That came later. But a legit question with that is, because this came in, I did open up, like I said, hey, I got Vernon Reed coming on. You have any questions? And I got all, as you can imagine, when you have a living legend on the program,

you get a million questions. But they're like, You're looking great, bud. I mean, you look like you're living large. So body glove, glover. Did that have anything to do with it? Glove, glover? No.

Okay. That's for Canada Cab. Okay. So, do you mind if I play a little bit of a song? Not related to Danny Glover either. Okay. I was going to ask that. That's my next question. Okay. Let me, if you don't mind, I'm going to play a little bit of

the definitive jam from Vivid, and then I got questions about that, and then I'll get back to more questions. And you don't have anything for the next five or six hours do you because this is a I kid I kid all right let's kick this I'm going to play about a minute of this and then

fade it down although it's going to be tough to do so but then I want to hear your voice so let's listen to Cult of Personality personality Look in my eyes What do you see? The cultural personality I know your anger I know your dreams

I've been anything you want to be Oh, I'm the cult of personality Like Mussolini Vernon, this song hits you right between the eyes. Like, even all these years later, it's just, like, amazing. What an amazing song. Yeah, thank you. What are you willing to share?

I mean, I'd take anything and everything here. Like what can you share about the riff, the iconic riff, the song, anything you can share with us about Cult of Personality? So we had a loft in Bushwick, Brooklyn. And it was right, it was 1102 Broadway. And it was right by some elevator tracks. We had our loft. It was above a Puerto Rican refrigerator and air conditioning repair place.

There were a bunch of great guys that worked in this place. They really looked out for us. And so we would, it was right by the L tracks, and it was Broadway in Brooklyn, and you could basically go over the Williamsburg Bridge, and basically once you're over the Williamsburg Bridge, you take a ride on Bowery, and in a few blocks, you're by CBGB. So by this time, we were playing fairly regularly at CBGB's,

which was great. They were growing our audience. And we had a bunch of tunes, and we basically, you know, we would jump in our friend Wayne's van. Our friend Wayne had a van. He drove us, you know, we would jump in our, our, our friend Wayne's van. Our friend Wayne had a van. He drove us, you know, and we would just pile our stuff in the van, go over the Winsburg bridge, make a ride and go to see the GVs. And, you know, that was what we did. So, and at one point we have a rehearsal and Corey,

you know, I've been writing a bunch of, I was writing a bunch of tunes and we were starting to collaborate on tunes. And then Corey said, hey man, I want to think about this. He's singing a part. I cannot tell you what the part he's saying, but I literally was trying to play the thing and I stumbled onto the da- da da da da da da da da

riff. Wow. Instantly I don't know something about it something about it and I remember saying Will put a beat to this right and we're playing and we're just kind of playing that and we're about you know

I was like okay and so we something at that point that from the first part of the riff it was almost as if the song started to assemble it like you know because muz made a couple of suggestions and we're playing this one riff and it's like well it's got to go somewhere so i was like okay so i did this line to a band you know the kind of line that kind of answers itself you know it's and um and we were doing that and then uh we needed a we needed a a change and and it was funny to change the bridge, if you will, the bridge of the song is really inspired by a dear friend of mine.

Who's no longer with us, you know, this piano player named Raymond Jones and he turned me on to a lot of music. And he turned me on to Peter Gabriel, you know, like all the Peter Gabriel read the peter gabriel read the post you know uh the post genesis peter gabriel right right when he you know and security which is an incredible record you know and all these different things and um and uh he was a big todd rungren fan and he had this kind of voice leading thing so I was kind of was played these triads these chords and it was really a little bit in imitation of the way my friend

Raymond would play these chords and would have this kind of voice leading so I was kind of imitating I said what would Raymond do you? So I kind of did that. And it's really special for me to bring up because we met in high school. And the thing is that Raymond, he wound up doing a lot. He became pretty successful. You know the band Chic? Yeah, of course. Good Time?

Of course. The song Good Time. This person I'm talking to about, you know, he, if you hear the song Good Times, there's a piano part and there's an electric piano. There's a Fender Rhodes piano part. And my friend, Raymond Jones, is playing the Fender Rhodes part on Good Times. Wow. Wow. Wow.

So weirdly, there's a connection to... You know, that song literally came up yesterday with Simon Law from Soul to Soul because of the chic influence and, you know... It's incredibly... Well, you know, it's interesting, the idea that a song will lead to an entirely different style of music. It's arguable that good times, you know, taken on by rappers delight,

like you could say hip-hop hop and there are many precedents, but really rappers delight is the beginning of hip hop. As you know, it's, it's just kind of wild the idea of a single song leaked becoming a genre. Now, Chuck Brown was talking about was before he passed, he was being interviewed on like WFUV here and he was asking about go-go music and he said well you know all of go-go music is based on Mr. Magic by Grover Washington and I was like what and and I played Mr. Magic in in top 40 bands and

and it's the case bump bump bump bump bump that's the the rhythm of the thing is it's the cadence. Bump, bump, bump, bump, bump. That's the rhythm of the thing. It's kind of like, it's like a marching band rhythm, really. Bump, bump, bump, bump, bump, bump, bump, bump. And that is go-go music. Right. That's like the clave of go-go music. So it's like mind-blowing. So anyway, all of that to say, the song,

the greatest thing about the day we wrote Cult of Personality, it was written in one rehearsal, one day. So we came into rehearsal and Corey said, try this. And from the point I mistakenly, I stumbled onto the riff. I mistakenly, I stumbled onto the riff. And from that point on, the song kind of assembled itself. And I had written words. I had this red little notebook, which I lost on a New York City subway. Don't ask.

My red notebook, I just one day wrote, I thought of it as, I didn't think of it as lyrics. It was kind of a poem. Look in my eyes, what do you see? The cult of personality. And all of these, the whole lyric pretty much was, you know, with a few adjustments, right? In discussion with the band, most of the lyrics I'd written in this notebook. And it was kind of like, because of the because we were cold war kids right we were in the 80s we were the cold war was still a thing right that's why sting had this song you know i hope the russians love their children you know whatever right like the cold war until you know um when the berlin wall

fell was you know that was the end of a whole way of thinking right but we were still in the grip of that we were still in the grip of that in 86 right right and, which is the year I, you know, the year we wrote the tune. So yeah, man. Uh, Well, like to hear your story there, it's almost like when you hear Dolly Parton talk about like, she wrote, I will always love you and Jolene in the same day or something, or Neil Young on some feverish day, he was not feeling well and he wrote like a couple of classics. Like that sounds like that song much like, you know,

transformers who go together to create the big it assembles itself in this like magic moment uh wow yeah because all of the different things actually i think we i got the guitar i got the cult guitar in 86 but it was written in 87, I believe. So anyway, it was just one of these things where we somehow were not, we somehow got out of the way of the thing. We did the thing, and we also got out of its way, which is like a kind of, I think with bands, that's an incredible magic thing that happens with bands. Because you have four people with their four different outlooks on things.

And somehow the four of us came together. And that's why when I think about Cult, I think of it as one of the best days of the band's life. But it's not related to the song becoming a hit. It's related to the way the process was just, we didn't, nobody, we didn't stop it. We didn't stop the process. The music really kind of used us to assemble itself. Even though we did it. It's a weird thing.

You're a conduit, right? Like, it's like you're a conduit. So like this is flowing through you. Yeah. And it's kind of like, you know, you didn't edit out anything. We didn't, I know, I knew one thing that I said Mussolini instead of Hitler, cause I didn't want Hitler's name because i didn't want hitler's name i didn't want hitler's name in any song of mine so i went with mussolini as opposed to which still got the point of you know right you know totalitarian totalitarian dictatorship

absolutely no absolutely and that's a smart move on your part but what a uh like what a difference uh in terms of style like we played landscapes in alternative history and then we played uh called the personality you're a great guitarist on both but radically different styles well you know it's weird i'm i'm a person connected to a lot of different, it's weird because for me, I kind of came into it from, you know, playing in funk bands, reggae bands,

fusion, that went into this whole journey with free jazz, which really opened, you know, not free. Well, it was kind of harm melodic, really based on Ornette Coleman's kind of ideas.

Cause Shannon played with Ornette Coleman, but he, he, but Shannon played without, he's the only drummer to play with with Cecil Taylor, Albert Eiler and Ornette Coleman who are like the big, the big three of the avant-garde in the sixties on a level. So his, his, but he was also the, but the other thing is that Jackson was from Ronald was from Fort Worth, Texas and Texas. His coming from the blues and Texas was as much as the avant garde.

He was rooted in the blues. He insisted on honesty in the blues thing. And he used to kick my ass about it. Right. So there's a so there's a part of all of it that made me who i am like i'm you know i'm interested in things from the most freakishly weird to the most conventional you know and those things because i enjoy both things i enjoy i enjoy a well-crafted pop tune. I love a great vamp. I love something that's like tweaky and odd times and weird little things going on. Something that's completely bonkers. You know, because it's all about, in a way, the human experience.

Whether a human being is, they've done something. I love the way Prince took the Lindrum, right? Like he took the Lindrum and he made it have a sound. It has a very recognizable sound. The way he used that technology, he made it really, really personal. And he was a kick ass drummer in his own right. But when he went when he went to do controversy it's morris day is playing the drums on controversy right so all of this stuff and all of the things and like everything from the art ensemble of chicago to sun ra to the bangles right because i'm just looking for what i'm listening for is a connection to the human condition.

That's the only thing I care about. So whether it's James Brown or David Byrne or David Byrne trying to mess with Al Green, you know what I mean? That's what I'm here for. I'm here for that. But Vernon, you obviously appreciate and respect the craft. I mean, I'm listening to you talk about those who have influenced you and these

legends and it's like you have great respect for these virtuosos, but you yourself are an exceptional guitar player. So, I mean, it's one thing to appreciate the craft. It's another thing to apply it. Like, were you always this good? I'm'm just wondering when in your life did you realize well you're pretty good at this guitar is a weird thing to live with and and mainly there's so many different ways of

thinking about the instrument you know it's just like thinking about any instrument and and and the guitar is really daunting because there are so many ways to be good. There's so many ways to suck at it, right? for a ways into my own expression, as well as listening to the genre, you know, the genres of things. Like I produced some, I got to play with some of my mentors. I played with Jack Bruce, recorded with him. I played with, I produced James Blood Ulmer and these blues records with him i played with i've i've produced james blood olman these blues records with him and

and it's funny because when i'm playing if i'm playing in the memphis blood context it really is framed by the blues it's really framed by that and i wouldn't play the way i play with the freeform funky freaks you know know what I mean? Right, of course. You know what I mean? But there's something that I'm trying or I'm feeling out both in the context of genre. There's a certain thing that I like about genre. I got to be, I'm incredibly fortunate.

I got to be in a studio with Mr. B.B. King, you know, and on a production tip and just his aura and his presence and the way he approached the instrument. You know, I've been around wonderful players like Chris Buono, like Alex Skolnick from Testament, you know, who's a wonderful jazz player, who's a kick-ass metal guy, and I really have a simpatico with him, you know, and I've been fortunate in terms of just the breadth of people. I recently played with Santana, you know, at the San Francisco Jazz Fest.

And it was really Cindy Blackmon's tribute to Tony Williams and Aurelien Budenek, who's a great young player. David Gilmour, not that David Gilmour. I was going to say. The G-I-L-M-O-R-E. Even though I'm a fan of both Gilmours, the O-U-R and the O-R-E. I'm a fan of both.

And that for me, so talking about myself and the instrument, you know, it's kind of what I'm available to and how do I get out of the way of what, how do I get out of the way of what I'm available to in. How do I get out of the way of what, how do I get out of the way of what I'm available to? Wow. Because on a certain level, you know,

playing fast is really thrilling and doing, you know, kind of stuff is really cool. But also to be in a space where that's not necessary. Right. To be in a being available to that, but not necessarily having to do that, not necessarily having to do that. Or, you know, like there's a freedom in just kind of doing a simple, basic thing. in just kind of doing a simple basic thing but the same time complexity you know once you put the simplicities on top of one another you wind up with complexity right and so i'm blah blah blah and the weather because the guitar is like a journey it's a constant thing it's not like

yeah i did all my practicing i'm done i'm good it's like no i get to pick it up i have to it's something i have to apply myself to it. But I also have to take breaks from it because that's the only way. It's in the breaks that you, it's in the break that something else will occur. Something else will occur. And that's the thing that I'm, you know, because I'm, at heart, I'm a blues-based improviser that says jazz and the avant-garde, metal and all these things come into it. Right.

And it's basically for me, it's whatever I'm available, whatever I allow myself to be available to. And so because of that, you know, there's always a risk of going down a self-conscious spiral. Like the enemy for me every day is my desires, like wanting to do something as opposed to doing the thing that I want to do.

That's a thing. So like if I'm judging myself and talking in a conversation about the guitar that's a thing. So, like, if I'm judging myself and talking in a conversation about the guitar as opposed to when I'm just playing, when I'm just playing

and just being with it, that's where it is. As opposed to, you know, I don't know, I'm in the weeds here. I gotta say, I love it

in the weeds. Like, I don't need the, you know, the 2,000 foot view. I like it in the weeds like I don't need the you know the 2,000 foot view I like it in the weeds and it's really generous of you to share these thoughts from the weeds like I just want to say props to you because I called you a living legend

and you made a crack about is this living but the fact is you know if I'm ever going to see a list of greatest guitar players it better have Vernon Reed on it like this is otherwise that this sucks, but you've been very generous. And I know I joked earlier. I said,

Hey, I hope you have six hours, which was a joke because I saw your face. So I'm going to try to keep it to an hour, but I'm going to get to so, so many people have some questions. I'm just going to hit you up with some questions. Okay.

But anytime you want to espouse on, you know, philosophy of music, please, just tell me to shut up and go. Alright, here's a question from me before I get to a couple of other questions. So, Living Color is a thing.

I'm listening to the radio, I'm hearing great songs particularly from Vivid, but from your other releases, which we'll talk about in a minute, but then of course Fox comes out with a new sketch comedy series with the Wayans and Jim Carrey is in this. So what did you feel when In Living Color became kind of a pop phenomenon? That was, you know, okay, so we were, it was weird.

So we were, it was a weird, it was kind of, hmm, that was a tough and unusual circumstance because they heard about it. And I was like, huh, okay, that's odd, you know. You know, and one, it was stressed to me and they actually approached us about using the Living Color theme song. You know, what's your favorite color, baby? Living Color, you know, it was kind of bandied about, you know, and it was really, one of our managers said, you know, do you really want to be tied from now on to comedy? Because the band will be associated with comedy. Now, I love comedy. But, you know, the band, you know, we talked about serious things. And it was kind of, and actually at one point it became, weirdly enough, a kind of Sony versus Fox situation, you know, and that was tough.

You know, I was deposed for it. And I know Keenan Ivory Wayans was deposed for it. I know Keenan Ivory Wayans was the post for it. Now, I met Damon Wayans and he said, dude, I had nothing to do with it. I was like, no, man, we're cool, you know. But I've never I've never actually met Keenan. And it's a shame that the situation put us just at real odds you know like we basically like they never put out a in living color comedy album because sony stopped them because we said no you can't put out a comedy record so we went so it wound up becoming a set a settlement we did a settlement and it was um

and what one of the things was told to me, he said, you know what? You don't realize this. Television is much bigger than music. Whatever's happening with music, television is massive. And as soon as this comes out, people are going to start calling you in living color. And that's exactly what happened. Yeah. People are going to start calling you in living color.

And that's exactly what happened. Yeah. You know, cause we were, we, we had a suit because we didn't want the confusion. And in the part of the problem was that the exist, the coexistence of something like, you know,

there's a song like a Rolling Stone. There's a magazine called Rolling Stone and there's a band called the Rolling Stones. Right. Right. And they're all right they're three entities that exist and there's a clear deep you know clear delineation between the the three things right but that was not quite the but we felt that there was not going to be a clear delineation. There wasn't going to be because television,

because those three things, Rolling Stone magazine, band Rolling Stones and song Rolling Stones all exist in one media. They exist in one medium. You're talking about two mediums, right? Television, you know, and music, and they're separate, right?

So we, but the thing is, the power of television, the reach of television is so much larger that our contention is that we would instantly be conflated with the TV show. And basically, we wound up doing a settlement because our litigator said, well, if you go before a judge, if the judge says, I don't see what the problem is, then if you lose in a suit, then you're not going to be able to right that's zero yeah right so that's why a lot of these things these conflicts between creative entities between people a lot of these things wind up in settlements because if you if the judge says i

don't know what you're talking about the the gavel comes down, you're done. And you can maybe appeal, but how much money are you going to spend to, you know? Here, Verdant, here's why I think you got jobbed, because I watched In Living Color on Fox, and Jim Carrey's a local boy. He's from here. I was watching, and it was not just sketch comedy, right? There was always live music,

and Heavy D did the theme song. So this... No, quick. Here, quickly. There was Tony the Tiger was saying, you know, Frosted Flakes, they're great. And Esso, I guess in America it's SX, right? But here it's Esso, so it gets confusing. But anyway.

Oh, it's Esso? Okay. So they had a tiger in your tank, and it almost looked like the same guy. Didn't that become Exxon? Exxon. You're right. So in the States, it's Exxon.

Here, it's Esso. Okay, Standard Oil. Yeah, Esso. But here's what happened. Because Esso in Canada, Exxon in the States started selling food, suddenly Kellogg's is like, whoa, whoa, whoa, you're on our turf now. The tiger's not going to fly anymore because we got the tiger and that's that's why in living color it was not just a sketch comedy show but this is actually a segue to i got i got more questions about one topic than any other believe it or not

because you're talking about how like you guys are saying serious stuff i think about you guys like as the public enemy of rock like you're not joking around. You have serious statements you're making in your music. You don't want to be associated with comedy. But how do you feel that now you're essentially associated with WWF, WWE, UFC? Yeah, it's a weird thing. I'll get the questions out, and then I need you to talk about this. This is important because Jamel writes in and goes how much did AEW

WWE CM Punk pay to use Cult of Personality? Rock Golf writes in and says Cult of... Go ahead. Yeah, you don't have to tell us. You don't have to tell us, obviously. But do you

know Punk? Was there any connection or did they just start using your song yeah he's a good dude he's a good dude um you know i'm gonna i have a i have a very weird situation we're live right am i live on tv a thing i can edit no man what's your situation just tell me you gotta got to go? There's somebody that's delivering something for me. It's like two minutes. I'll wait for you. I will wait for you. Good.

This actually gives me a chance. So Vernon's gone to the door to make a delivery. And I can shout out some sponsors. Great Lakes Beer, Delicious Craft Beer. And if you're in Ontario, you can pick it up at LCBOs and around this fine province. So thank you, Great Lakes Beer, for the delicious craft beer. If you're in western end of Toronto or Mississauga or Oakville, you've got to go to Palma Pasta. I don't care where you live.

Make the trip to Palma Pasta. Go to palmapasta.com because that's where you get authentic Italian food and it's delicious. I want to shout out Ridley Funeral Home. There have been pillars of this community since 1921. You can pay tribute without paying a fortune. RecycleMyElectronics.ca That's where you go to find out

where you can safely drop off your old tech, your old electronics. That's good for Mother Earth so the chemicals don't end up in our landfill. The Moment Lab, they do PR and they're great at it. Well, more than PR. They have a talented team that works on public relations

and how to craft stories that resonate with your audience and generate positive media coverage. I'd be more than happy to introduce anybody listening to Matt and Jared at The Moment Lab. They're here to help you achieve your public relations goals. Season four of the excellent Moneris podcast, Yes, We Are Open. It's hosted by FOTM Al Grego. Award winning because he does a great job. He travels this country, Canada, and he collects stories from small business owners. And then he shares these inspiring

stories with entrepreneurs like myself. So, thank you to Moneris. Yes, we are open. Season 4 is available now. Thank you to Recycle My Electronics. Thank you to The Moment Lab. Thank you to Ridley Funeral Home. Thank you to Palma Pasta. Delicious Italian food. And thank you to Great Lakes Brewery.

Fresh craft beer. Sorry! Love means never having to say you're sorry. You're hilarious. That's okay. I've shouted out the sponsors and then it's funny when

fans of yours send me notes, I feel like they want to be part of the show. The CM Punk, it sounds like the CM Punk thing is not, there's no controversy here. I'm not even trying to create controversy. It's more like if we could get the inside scoop, like how did it come to be? Do you have anything you can share about

when you come back, obviously? That's okay. Glad to have you back yeah so do you have like obviously before i read some nice notes uh is there an origin story or cm punk uses the song because it's a great fucking yeah you know the story about that is we got contacted that this wrestler really wanted to use Cult of Personality for his thing. And we were like, okay. And it turns out he's a big fan. And we met him. And then he told me the story.

He said, well, you know, the thing about it is Cult of personality was I was in a little league team when I was 12. And Punk said, you know, that was a get out on the field music. Wow. That was a get out on the field music. The coach was a big fan. So they won their championship, their little league championship. So he had, you know, from when he was 12, so he had an attachment to this tune.

Right. And so when it turned out that he became, you know, a pro wrestler, he won the tune. You know, so I said, man, that's an incredibly moving story. Yeah. So the license, I've never regretted licensing it. He's a good dude. He's a really good dude.

Okay, good to hear. He's a good dude. And don't worry, you don't have to disclose the dollar figure on the royalty check. That's your private business there. Cam Gordon, who's a listener of the program, just wants you to know he bought Vivid on cassette at Cheapies at Young

and Steeles so I did warn you there'd be some Toronto centric talk yeah absolutely well here's a great note for you here Hamilton Mike says as a guitar player myself I've been a fan of Vernon since I first heard Vivid that album along with Time's Up

and Stain still sounds as current and relevant now as then. And of course, I've kept up and love all their stuff, including their most recent album, Shade. It's just killer. So Hamilton Mike wants you to know you've inspired him.

I appreciate that. Quick question for me. This is kind of a silly inside baseball question, if you will, but Cult of Personality is on Guitar Hero 3, Legends of Rock, but that's not the master. So is there a story as to why it had to be like that? Yeah, we did a re-record of it because, you know,

because it's a little complicated with licensing it from the label to the game company. So we simplified it that we had the ability to re-record it, and so we did that as opposed to licensing the recording, the original recording. Makes sense to me. Okay. Craig writes in, I saw Living Color open for the Rolling Stones at the C&E in 1989 on their Steel Wheels Tour. I'm just going to raise my hand to say I was working that day listening from beside the C&E grandstand. So this is a moment I remember well. But then back to Craig, he goes, I'd like to know more about the experience and if Vernon had any good Mick or Keith stories he can share. So what can you share with us about opening for the Rolling Stones on the Steel Wheels Tour?

Oh, we were, oh my God, we started in Philadelphia. It's very hot. And I was very nervous and a huge amount of people. And there are two things about that day. So we got through the set. And when we came off, we were heading back to the, you know, you put us in the golf carts and you drive back.

And Keith Richards was kind of at the entrance and and he says to me oh man how's the crowd and he's but he's asking like what's the mood of the crowd and i was like dude he's kind of a little it's almost like he's a little nervous. Right. And I was like, dude, you're like Pete Richards. You know what I mean? It really, it was one of those moments that helped me greatly. You know, it helped me greatly in terms of getting out there, going out there and playing, you know, because it was so overwhelming on a level and

and and for him to go no man who's filming are they are they cool and i was like oh dude they're here for you and um and and that was really cool um that same first day yeah um the floor in the back of the arena, right? And they used pyrotechnics. They had these pyro explosions, right? Right. And the wave of heat that kind of hit, it was, it was shocking. And people like people were gasping, like, like, like we're talking about thousands and thousands of gasping at the same time.

So afterwards I'm backstage and the pyro guys, and I walked up to one of the pyro guys and I said, Hey man, he says, all right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We're working on it. We're going to dial it down. So the pyro guys knew they went a little overboard. They came in a little hot, as we say. They came in

a little hot. It was incredible. It was whoosh. It felt like my eyebrows were... Oh yeah, they singed. You can smell the burning hair. But now that I recall, so again, bring up Toronto Mike,

so I have to bring it back to Toronto here, that you came to Toronto twice in that tour because you played the C&E Grandstand, which is the exhibition here, in like, I don't know, August or early September or something. But then at the end of the year, you're at Skydome, as it was called then,

and I still call it in my heart. But you played two different big venues here in the Steel Wheels Tour. Any, well, actually, hold on to your Toronto memories because multiple people wrote me to say they saw you at the concert hall in 1993 with Bad Brains. Okay, so I'll read these very quickly and then we'll see what you remember about this but hockey murph says saw them at the masonic masonic temple is another

name for the concert hall it's very confusing but okay saw them at the masonic temple way back in the day pieces of the roof were falling during their set it was nice and loud i wonder if he remembers that but then greg says living color played a show recorded for Much Music at the concert hall slash Masonic Temple in 93, where the roof started to cave. Does Vernon Reed have any memories from that show? And talk

to me. That was over Muzz's head, not mine. Okay, good. I remember that. That was pretty that was pretty you played loud. I remember that. That was pretty, that was pretty, you played loud. I'll tell you what, we were not a game. We were not a game on the volume tip. We were not a game.

And honestly, I think by this time, oh, my God, I think Lee Popa, Lee Popa out of Chicago was our front of house guy. And he was a genius. He really was incredible. I think he... Anyway, he was incredible with effects. He was a musician himself. And he was kind of nuts.

He was really with effects. He was a musician himself, and he was kind of nuts. He was really, really good. I mean, in terms of echoes on voices and panning things, he was a pretty formidable sound person. Wow. You know, I want to mention Judy Marinas. Judy Marinas was our first sound person we toured with and she was the house sound engineer for cbgbs she was the house sound engineer and she was a special special special special person and and she passed during the covid oh i'm sorry yeah it was very very it was a real

um you know she's part of the original crew and um we were such an unusual we're such a unique bunch of we were quite the ensemble and she was a beast in terms of her mixes were like wow you know and she was our sound person right up until um up until the stones thing yeah well yeah i'm very very sorry for your loss now the roof caving in on you because you're playing so damn loud. It was caving in on Muzz. Right. Because you put your amps to 11. That makes it louder than 10.

I learned that from Spinal Tap. I think it was a fairly low-ceilinged place. And it had that kind of, hopefully it wasn't asbestos. Oh, shit. Yeah. And it had that kind of, hopefully it wasn't asbestos, you know. Oh, shit, yeah. Did that happen to any other times performing? Like, was that a regular occurrence for Living Color back in the day? No, but, you know, there were mishaps.

There were things, you know, I mean, they were weird, you know. I've always been nervous, you know, because Corey just is an idiot. Go out on top of speaker cabinets and whatnot. He's done so much of that. Maybe he saw Eddie Vedder do that. You guys were on the first Lollapalooza. Yeah, that's right. Well, yeah, Pearl Jam was on the second. Okay, that's right.

Yeah, well, that's right. Well, yeah, Pearl Jam was on the second. Okay, that's right. Yeah, sorry. We were on with Nine Inch Nails and the Butthole Surfers and Body Count. Oh, yeah, I see. And the Rollins Band and the Jim Rose Circus. Right. Man, you must have stories from that. But here, I want to ask, yeah. So one quick thing here, though.

Masonic Temple. Here's the segue. Okay. So the concert hall was the venue that there's a guy named DJ Ron Nelson, who was on a local station called CKLN. It was actually tied to what was then known as Ryerson University, now it's known as TMU. But DJ Ron Nelson, who's been here in the

basement to chat me up about it because I love the story he was the first promoter to bring rap artists hip hop artists to Toronto and that was the big venue was the concert hall for that in fact he first brought Public Enemy to Toronto and there's a great episode of Toronto Mike with Chuck D

and Mike Hannaford writes in and he wants to know how easy was it for you to get flavor, Flav and Chuck D to do their riff on a funny vibe? Oh, you know what? Well, it was easy because I play, I played on the first public enemy record.

Yo bum rush the show. Okay. So which, which song? Sophisticated. Yeah. I love you. Sophisticated bitch.

That'd be the, the, the, the, Bitch. The album is a playthrough Yo Bummer, the show, and I absolutely adore that Public Enemy album. Yeah, so basically it was kind of returning a favor, right?

I played on their first record and they showed up on our first record. They were the special guests on our first record. Yeah. Amazing. Now, Mike Hannafin, who, by the way, was recently on this very program kicking out the jams, which means we play and discuss basically his favorite songs of all time. He kicked out Open Letter to a Landlord. So we played it and talked about it.

It's funny because that was before you were scheduled to appear on Toronto, Mike, but we basically gave you your flowers in an episode because what a song Open Letter to a Landlord is. Yeah, it's like kind of a beautiful beautiful tune

I mean it's about it's about a lot of things but the inspiration for Open letter was really the park my local park uh when i lived in brooklyn you know down down the block from my parents house the local basketball park and um i have so many incredible memories of music in the park. DJs used to play in the park and playing basketball with my cousin. And one of the Harlem Globetrotters used to come, come through occasionally and,

and play with local kids. And yeah, there was quite a few characters That from back in the days So, but, so Anyway, I thought about the park And if the park had closed And now that park is totally different now But that sparked Even though the song is not about a park

It was the thing that sparked The thing The idea And that was actually One line was written by, there was a member of the Black Rock Coast named Tracy Morris who wrote a line in the song, and yeah, it was beautiful.

Beautiful. Yeah. Opaquato Landlord is, you know, when we play it now, Corey turns it into a church service. Pretty much. Yeah. Very nice.

Midtown Gourd is a huge fan of yours. I'm a big fan and have been since the first album, Vivid. I think the latest, Shade, is amazing. Is there another one on the way? So Vernon, we need to know. Is there more Living Color on the way? I'm working on some things and we're hoping to maybe have a new song,

a single tune available we're talking about it and we're going to be doing some shows with the band extreme right and looking forward to that and we're talking about maybe having a new song. We're in process of working on a new record, the post-pandemic record. Good to hear, man. Good to hear. Midtown Gord also wants to know, did you get accepted quickly by the hard rock metal community, or did it take a little time?

Midtown Gord is asking. rock metal community or did it take a little time midtown gordon there were people who were great to us from the top let me let me um from motorhead right lemmy was early on was great steve i was great um anthrax you knowrax who are like our Italian and Jewish cousins and they have that great relationship with Public Enemy too of course Public Enemy

yeah we have a very close relationship with Public Enemy, Fishbone well I meant Anthrax and Public Enemy yeah I've been friends with Alex Skolnick of Public Enemy, Fishbowl, and Who Will. Oh, I meant, yeah, I meant Anthrax and Public Enemy. Alex Kolnick. Right.

Yeah, I've been friends with Alex Kolnick of Testament for a very, very long time. Nice. Yeah. Great stuff. You've been amazing. So this is your call now. I can wind this down now if you've got other things to do, or I can do five quick things that came in here. No pressure. How are you feeling five quick

questions and i'm out okay i understand you've been unbelievable okay i'll be very quick basement dweller says my favorite living color album is 1990s times up largely due to the amazing guitar tones on type and love rears its ugly head and while i'm not a guitarist myself i've long wondered what equipment mr. Reed used on those two tracks in particular. You want to talk a little tech? Okay, so Love Rears Its Ugly Head is the oldest guitar I own,

and it's a Gibson 345 that was made the year I was, I think it was made the year I was born. I've been told it was, it's been made, it was made in 1958, but somebody else said, I think it's a 1960, but, but yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's in the video and, and I got it from Norm's Rare Guit rare guitars in la and it's a crazy story because you know i i went kind of went on a little shopping spree in the middle of us making this record

i bought a musser acoustic it was a local california builder wonderful kind of post-Martin type acoustic. And I got this 345. And I've been negotiating with the salesman. And he gave me a price. It was cool. And then he looked over the paperwork for the guitar. And, you know, there's a phrase, the color drained from his face. And that's the first time I actually ever saw it. Because he thought the guitar was, because it had a busted baritone.

There's a switch on the guitar. And we negotiated for a guitar that was from 1968. And it turns out the guitar was 10 years earlier. With patent applied for pickups. And Norman came out it was he said i gotta go to my boy he was really scared i gotta go to my boss with this and uh and norman came out the owner of the store and he said it was very formal he said the deal was made in good faith and the deal will stand it was very weird it was very kind of formal yeah the deal was made in good faith and the old stand

and i said don't fire me they i don't worry about it i'll you know i'm gonna torture i'll torture him for a while but i'm not gonna kill i'll use i'll torture him for a while but i won't kill him okay so that now i can just share an anecdote and then four more and you're out. But in the mid-80s, you commissioned a highly figured maple custom guitar from Vancouver based Luthier Martini guitars. Do you have any

memory of this? Yeah, probably. Okay, well here's the fun fact for you and then we'll move on quickly. But the fun fact is that that guitar was later acquired by Bob Wiseman, who's a founding member of Blue Rodeo, which is basically a monster, a big Canadian band based here in Toronto. So there's a Blue Rodeo connection to that guitar you commissioned.

Oh, that's fantastic. That's fantastic. I love that. Fun fact for you. All right, here. I know I'm mad of my word. Rock Golf writes in and says, I still remember Vernon's acceptance speech

at the first and last Elvis Awards, raising the question of why it wasn't named the Chuck Berry Awards. And Rock Golf would like to know, did you get any flack for that? Oh, probably. That's why we're not at the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame today. Now, listen, I need another two hours. Now we're talking. That's bullshit right there.

It was, you know, I mean, subsequently, you know, my thoughts on Elvis have really, it should have been, you know, I mean, honestly, why not? Why not the Chuck Berry Awards? You know, why not the Little Richard Awards? You know, there's a wonderful, the filmmaker Lisa Cortez has, there's a wonderful documentary about Little Richard that's current, that's out now that everybody needs to see. It's really kind of amazing. When you see this documentary, at some point you're going to go, oh, he was the prince of his day. Literally, there's a certain point.

If you see the footage of Little Richard, you know, it's clear. I mean, there's no glam rock without Little Richard. None at all. None at all. None at all. You know, he completely changed the course of things. So there needs to be an award about him. No doubt. But yeah, that was the Rock and Roll International Awards.

It was like there was only one, they only had it one time. Right, one and done. One and done. Hannah Finn writes in, sorry. You killed it for them. You put an end to that. I seem to remember Mr. Reed

mentioning Frank Zappa in an interview. Did he ever meet Frank Zappa and see him play? I never got to meet Frank Zappa. I mean, I'm a huge fan and he's a,

still continues to be a fascinating figure because his music is so complex, and he's completely avant-garde. For me, Frank Zappa is completely avant-garde. He's an avant-garde blues guitarist. I mean, he's completely avant-garde in his guitar playing. And his composition is off the charts. He's someone I have a great deal of respect for. And even the later things he did, Jazz from Hell, the sequencing and the electronic stuff he did he was

he was really a force really a force well vernon you're a force and i think i uh took a good chunk of your day and i don't feel bad about it at all because i can't wait to share this conversation shameless you're gonna take somebody's day you know walk with your head held high so as we say goodbye here uh when can we see living color perform again in toronto is there any maybe with the new material like soon enough i mean i don't know if we're there i think we're i think we have i'm not bugging i think one of our extreme dates is gonna be in canada if i'm not bugging. I think one of our extreme dates is going to be in Canada. I'm not bugging out. I don't have the thing.

Right, you don't have the... But hopefully, I think soon, because we are going to be touring. We're going to Australia, but we're going to be doing North America. We're going to get out West. So I think soon. Yeah, if you're going to do North America, you have to come to Toronto. That's mandatory. We got to see you here. I look forward to it.

I've been looking forward to it. I'll be there. And thanks again for this chat. I loved it. Yeah, man. Me too. Everybody have a good time. And that brings us to the end of our 1,278th show. You can follow me on Twitter.

I'm at Toronto Mike. Our friends at Great Lakes Brewery are at Great Lakes Beer. Palma Pasta is at Palma Pasta. Moneris is at Moneris. Recycle My Electronics are at EPRA underscore Canada. The Moment Lab are at The Moment Lab. And Ridley Funeral Home are at Ridley FH.

See you all tomorrow when my special guest is Anna Bailao. from a tin Cause my UI check has just come in Ah, where you been? Because everything is kind of rosy and green Yeah, the wind is cold

but the snow's strong Wants me to dance And your smile is fine And it's just like mine And it won't go away Cause everything is Rose and green Well you've been under my skin

For more than eight years It's been eight years of laughter And eight years of tears And I don't know what the future can hold or do for me and you But I'm a much better man for having known you Oh, you know that's true because Everything is coming up rosy and green Yeah, the wind is cold, but the smell of snow wants me today.

And your smile is fine, and it's just like mine, and it won't go away. Because everything is rosy and gray. Well, I've been told that there's a sucker born every day but I wonder who yeah I wonder who maybe the one

who doesn't realize there's a thousand shades of gray cause I know that's true yes I do I know it's true yeah I know that's true, yes I do I know it's true, yeah I know it's true How about you? Oh, they're picking up trash and they're putting down roads

And they're brokering stocks, the class struggle explodes And I'll play this guitar just the best that I can Maybe I'm not and maybe I am But who gives a damn because everything is coming up

rosy and gray Yeah, the wind is cold but the smell of snow warms me today And your smile is fine, it's just like mine, it won't go away Cause everything is rosy and gray Well, I've kissed you in France and I've kissed you in Spain And I've kissed you in places I better not name And I've seen the sun go down on Chaclacour

But I like it much better going down on you Yeah, you know that's true Because everything is coming up Rosy and green We'll see you next time. gonna wait cause everything is rosy now everything is rosy and everything is rosy and great yeah Thank you.