Toronto Mike'd: The Official Toronto Mike Podcast - Warren Kinsella: Toronto Mike'd Podcast Episode 1886

Episode Date: April 21, 2026

In this 1886th episode of Toronto Mike'd, Mike chats with Warren Kinsella about his punk rock roots, his work with Jean Chrétien and Dalton McGuinty, his writing and his new book The Hidden Hand: The Information War and the Rise of Antisemitic Propaganda. Toronto Mike'd is proudly brought to you by Great Lakes Brewery, Palma Pasta, Ridley Funeral Home, Nick Ainis, and RecycleMyElectronics.ca. If you would like to support the show, we do have partner opportunities available. Please email Toronto Mike at [e-mail].

Hey, I'm Warren Concella. I'm the author of The Hidden Hand, the Information War, and the rise of anti-Semitic propaganda. And I'm happy to be here on the show. Thank you. Welcome to episode 1,886, 1886 of Toronto Mikeed, an award-winning podcast proudly brought to you by Great Lakes Brewery. Order online at Great Lakesbeer.com for free local home delivery in the GTA. Whose phone is it? Oh, it's Warren's phone. I'm hearing a jam. I'm like, who is this?

It's Warren Can Sell. He's going to turn off his ringer here. Greatlakesbeer.com for free local home delivery in the GTA. Palma Pasta. Enjoy the taste of fresh, homemade Italian pasta and entrees from Palmapasta in Mississauga and Oakville. Visit palma Pasta.com for more. more. Fusion Corpso, Nick Iienes.

He's the host of Building Toronto Skyline and Mike and Nick, two podcasts that you ought to listen to. Recycle My Electronics.C.A. Committing to our planet's future means properly recycling our electronics of the past. And Ridley Funeral Home, pillars of the community since 1921. Joining me today making his Toronto Mike debut,

it is indeed, Warren Kinsella. Warren, how you doing, buddy? I apologize. What song was it? That was, I Want to Be Your Dog by Iggy and the Stoges, and it is the ringtone for my girlfriend. And I had the phone muted, like you asked. Right. And, but like family members, you know, said, I don't know what you call.

You have like, yeah, they get through even if you mute your phone. So the girlfriend can get you and it will ring even if you've muted it. Is that right? Yeah. And then it's, I want to be your daughter. And typically what she does when I'm giving a speech, she will phone in the middle. of the speech and I always get a laugh line out of it but I apologize well I think that might be the perfect way to start this chat with a little Iggy pop but I did have one question I've always wondered

this with you and I'm going to ask it off the top and then I'll see if you'll join me in the time machine but does anyone ever come up to you Warren and say hey thank you for writing shoeless Joe no they don't but I can tell you a story yeah so that's WP Kinsella so WP Kinsella was at the University of Calgary when I was in Calgary and we were both published by another publisher I will not name and I used to get his mail and he would get mine and I thought that was funny and harmless and he apparently didn't think it was funny funny or harmless and he was kind of crabby and like he was very involved in the reform party of Canada like in a big big way okay and um uh in fact they had a commercial I don't know if you remember it.

I'm an old guy. They had this commercial kind of rolling fields of grain and purple mountains and all that stuff. And the voiceover was W.P. Kinsella. And so he, and I was a liberal and he hated liberals. And so no, no connection. No connection there, but similar names. And it stops right there. Okay.

Now, so thank you for being here. It's awesome. I get at least an hour with you. Maybe I'll steal an extra two. We'll see. Thank you for being here. Well, thanks for having me. And we are going to discuss, of course.

You gave it to long name, but we're going to discuss your latest book, The Hidden Hand, The Information War and the Rise of Anti-Semitic Propaganda. But first, are you cool if we go back to the 70s for a moment? Oh, absolutely. So now I have a sound effect for this. Like in episodes, we often will go back to a period in the past. And I finally have a little sound effect for this. We'll see if it sticks, but I'm going to play a little song and we're going to talk about it.

Let's listen. Warren, what are we listening to here? You are listening to a song that my best friend and I wrote when we were teenagers called I Am a Confused Teenager. It's about acne and girls and hormones. And we were the first punk band on the Canadian Prairies, and that was our first record. And that's a long time ago. Yeah, we're going back. I'm guessing we're going back to like 76, maybe, 77. So maybe do you mind off the top?

So the band is the Hot Nasty's, right? Yep. Can you give us, I'm very interested in this, okay? Sort of the origin story of the Hot Nasty's. And maybe we talk a little bit about these, the early Canadian punk, if you will. You're one of the first punk bands in the Canadian West. I got to cover this. Yeah, we were, well, the precursor to the Nastys was a band called the Social Blemishes.

More hits than zits. And so that was kind of like a collective of idiots. And none of us could get girls, so we formed the punk band. And out of that came the Hot Nasty's. And the Hot Nasty's was a bit more serious. And so we put together a record. We put on shows. And this is, you know, pre-internet days.

And we could get 500, 600 kids out just by word of mouth. And it was fun. and I quit when it got too violent. We had people coming to shows, mainly skinheads, who were there to pick fights and that caused trouble. And that kind of actually is the beginning of how I got involved in anti-racism and led to this book. I've always wondered, I sometimes have these older punkers on the show.

And I'm always curious, how did punk rock have any alignment with, Like you're pointing out, I will see old footage and there'll be a skinhead with a swastika on their gene jacket. Where did that come from? It changed. You know, I knew a lot of skinheads. So skinheads were friends. And they were into Bluebeat and ska and reggae. Like these guys believed in what we believed in in a multiracial, diverse society.

And around the summer of 79, the British movement in the National Front became very, reactive and very successful in Britain in recruiting these young skinhead guys, overwhelmingly guys. And then it jumped across the pond and started happening Canada and the United States too. And the violence I referred to that was, you know, coming from those guys. They were coming to shows to kick in heads. And the punks I knew my friends, we had gay kids, we had overweight kids, we had trans kids. it was a really diverse scene.

It was a very tolerant scene. It was a progressive scene. And so I just said to my best friend, I'm not going to do this anymore. I'm going to a journalism school, the hell with this. And he said, well, I'm glad you said it because I was going to quit too. So that was that. And, you know, I stayed in bands. I played in bands over the years.

But the nasties, I guess it's typical, you know, the highest point I reached in the music business is when I was 17 years old. So who influences, I guess the social blemishes. That's unbletful. The social blemishes. So that predates the hot nasties. Like, who are your influences? What music are you listening to that's like, hey, let's start a punk band? We, I mean, there wasn't any punk rock then, you know, but I would read, I loved rock and roll journalism.

And I used to read Cream Magazine. I didn't like Rolling Stone, you know, that was Fleetwood Mac and the Rolling Stones and all these ants dancing on the stage. and Cream Magazine started talking about this thing that was happening in New York. I've had these four guys from Queens called the Ramones. They all had the name Ramon as their last name. And that first record came out in April, 1976.

And I remember I bought it, downtown Calgary, Kelly's record store. And I hid it under my jacket because I was worried somebody beat the shit out of me on the bus and came home and I put it on my little tinny, turntable and played it. And it was one of those your life changes moments. My life changed. And I phoned my best friends, Pierre and Allen. And I said, you got to come over. You got to hear this.

You got to hear this. And it changed their lives too. And so punk rock was rock and roll that we thought it should be, you know, stripped down against your parents, against your teachers, against government, against society. You know, it was angry, raw, punk rock is what rock and roll was supposed to be. And so I had my own record company, had my own production company. We put on shows.

I brought black flag to Calgary. The first time they played on the prairies. So we became a big part of our lives. But the thing, and we loved it, and it was important. But the thing that drove us out, drove me out, was the, the racism that I started to see everywhere.

No, we're going to explore that because it shapes your career. But at the time, so Canada punk scene, you said there was no, so the Ramones influence you guys, you guys are in Calgary, you've got the social blemishes, it turns into the hot nasties. What other, like I know, Art Bergman's been here and he was in the young Canadians. Like, what were the other punk bands that you knew of in Canada? Well, there were really four scenes, I would say. maybe five.

I mean, there was Vancouver. So he had Bergman with the young Canadians who, you know, went on to, he had the K-Tells,

actually, before that. Right. And there's modern nets there and DOA, DOA, DOA, and Joey Shad and I played shows

many times together. So there was Vancouver. And they created their own kind of record label. Certainly Joey did. Then there was us in Alberta. So Mo Berg, for example,

who went on to be in pursuit of happiness. He was in a band in Edmonton we played with called The Modern Minds. There was a bit of a scene in Winnipeg with personality crisis and some other guys. A lot of the, what happened in Winnipeg, you'd see this. People were hippies, musicians. They said, I'm going to cut my hair and I'm going to pretend to be a punk rocker. And we didn't like guys like that.

And then there was a Montreal scene. And the Montreal scene, you know, it was like Wall of Voodoo and bands like that that were not quite punk. It was just, you know, it was distinct society. But the Toronto bands, you know, the diodes or Blue Peter or whatever, and to some extent of vial tones and teenage head from the hammer were, they had record labels, you know, they could get signed. And all the rest of us couldn't. So that's why I created my own record label, social blemish records, more hits and zits,

because, you know, we had to do it on our own. Whereas the Toronto bands, we thought were sucks because they could, get signed. Did you ever make the trek to Toronto to play? No. No. Okay. Now, that DIY aesthetic, that is, that is punk, right?

Like, I think that that's the spirit of punk. Do it yourself. It's essential. And, you know, because the second you sign a contract with a corporation from, you know, a record company, you lose control. I mean, that's what the clash song, Complete Control is all about. and, you know, they're going to try and change you. They're going to try and do things that you didn't want to do.

And so we did it the way we wanted to. And, you know, maybe we made some bad commercial decisions or whatever, but we didn't care. We believed in different things. And I think the Vancouver bands were to some extent like that. The point of sticks eventually got signed by stiff records. So they kind of broke out into the big time. But, you know, for everybody west of the lakehead, you had to do it yourself.

You had to do it on your own. Now, can you just for the definitive record here, name check, you kind of alluded to some of your buds. But name check the members of, you know, your band, the Hot Nasty's. We had Raspier Schenk, so he's still my best friend, and he's an engineer. And we called him Raspier because he would have this kind of reggae style of playing. We all loved reggae. We all loved reggae. And ska and blue beat.

Then we had Wayne Edwards, who's now an engineer too. And we called him Wayne the same because he was super normal. And then we had Tom Edwards and just playing Tom. And Tom Edwards was into Edgar Freud and Tangerine Dream and shit like that. And, but he was an amazing drummer. And, you know, we only existed for two years, two and a half years, three years. Our last gig was at the Calgary Stampede, and there was a riot. And, but like I still have people coming up to me, you know,

apparently our record sells in Germany for like $3,000. And, you know, the Palma Violets in Britain, somebody, a radio host said to me, do you know that a song you wrote just got played at Glastonbury in front of a quarter million people? And I'm like, no, it didn't. And it was the Palm of Violets would close every show with a song that Pierre and I wrote when we were 15

called Invasion of the Tribbles. Yeah, you can find it on the internet. That's amazing. Like, just soak that in because I realized when I, I said, you get an hour of Warren Cancela, and I realize there's obviously, I want to talk about the book, which I found very interesting.

I want to talk about, of course, I want to talk about Jean-Cretchen, maybe it was Alda and McGinty. I got places I want to go with you, but I could probably do the whole hour on this scene right now you're talking about. Yeah. It's say it was important to me,

and it was important part of my life. it influenced me, you know, I'll get, I'll get Holocaust survivors coming up to me and they'll say, you're not a Jew. I say, no, I'm an Irish Catholic. And why do you care about us? And it kind of pisses me off the question, frankly, because the question should be, why isn't everybody concerned about hatred? But it, you know, I'll say to them, it started, is how my parents raised me and, you know,

what I believe, but also in the punk scene, it was a big part of my life, the way I look at things. And so later on, you know, when I worked for Krentzia, he'd say, what's this punk rock stuff? He didn't get it. He loves classical music, but he was tolerant of me. He tolerated it. So what was your nickname in the band? Nuclear Age. Get off the stage, nuclear age.

Okay. And your lead vocals. Yeah. That was you. Terrible. Okay. So I'm going to move on from music, but I am going to pull on from music, but I am going to play one more thing here because I got to scratch my itch here, but I'm going to play this.

It's got a little chatter off the top. And it's time for another episode, a Warren of an arm's length. Woo! Okay. Hi, we are S-F-H. And this, there is Rolf. Okay, that's Riddlin Boy. Over there is Rayman,

back from California. And over there is, uh, is, uh, what's your name? The Orrin-Bond flapjack the third. This is called Barney Revele is my daughter. What you? What do you depot? Warren, what are we listening to here? Well, that's what it sounds like at the bottom of my toilet.

That's recorded in one of the guys' bass. That's shit from hell, my current band, playing a hot, nasty song called Barney Rubble is My Devil. The first time we played it, we played it in a union hall in Calgary. We were opening for DOA for Joey Shitted. And Joey was just standing there looking at me, and I thought, oh, he thinks I'm an idiot.

And he comes out and he goes, that's the best song you guys have ever written. And like Nardwar, a member of the Order of Canada, his band played it. And lots of people played that song. Okay, who's in this band? So that was my brother, was the drummer. He's Bjorn von Flapjack. Right. We had Derek Raymaker, who was a Gloven Mail, writer, and a guy named Ralph Dinsdale,

who's somewhere in Costa Rica. And so we played a lot. membership moved around. Like we all had jobs, right? Sure. And it's pretty hard to make a living, you know, playing punk rock these days. So, you know, we did it for kicks. What was your nickname in S-F-H?

Winky. Winky. Okay. All right. This is a question that came in when I said you were coming on the program and then we will move on because I hear you did other things with your life. But Cam Gordon wrote in. He just wrote a book called Track Changes.

I need to plug his book. I'm in Chapter 11. So just read Chapter 11 at least. okay but he writes and he has it he says i have a debate with steve laterante who of course you know and when they worked at twitter together and hit the big question they discuss at length is who is the billy brag of canada what say you warn consella oh you know a lot of the canadian punk bands actually even though i worked in politics i stayed away from politics too i just you know it was living it all day so i didn't want to write a song about it

Um, you know, different bands would dip their toe into it. You know, the weaker thens, you know, they do their song about Winnipeg. Yeah, that's a great song. You know, honest to God, there really isn't a Billy, and I've interviewed Billy Bragg, like that total commitment to social commentary and politics. You know, teenage head didn't do that. I guess Joey. I mean, Joey's now a city councilor for Burnaby.

in British Columbia, but not every one of Joey's songs is about politics. A lot of them are. So I guess by elimination it would be Joey Shihadhead. Okay, so interesting. So Cam said, okay, he wanted you to answer first. And then he can tell you, they end up coming with their best answer is, you mentioned the weaker thens, but John K. Sampson ends up being their top answer. And the other people they consider Andrew Cash, Bruce Colburn, and Joey Shithead.

No. Well, I mean, Samson doesn't play anymore, right? He's got stage fright or he's got anxiety issues. God bless him, so he's not playing. You know, like I could see, you know, brag, you know, what he does is the acoustic guitar and the lyrics and the songwriting is his thing. He doesn't have a band you can kind of hide behind. You know, when you have a band of four guys playing,

if one guy, you know, drops his lead, you can keep going. So what he does is special. That's hard to do. So, you know, Joey, you know, Joey's done acoustic stuff. He's played with everybody. I would say it's Joey should have still. Okay, I'm going to throw in the mix,

a gentleman who was in this very basement last week, Ron Hawkins from lowest to the low. I'm just throwing it in there. Yeah, maybe. Maybe. Okay. All right. So let's, please, you started touching on it, but how do you end up working with

John Kretchen? Help us. So you're a musician, but what? You become a lawyer, I guess? Like, what is your pathway to working with John Kretchen? Well, that summer I talked to you about the skinhead summer. Another thing happened is the Pierre Trudeau government brought in the National Energy Program.

And the National Energy Program was very unpopular and deservedly so in Western Canada because it destroyed people's lives. And a lot of people in Central Canada don't understand that or know that. And it gave rise to, as politics sometimes does, extremism. And the extremism was the Western separatist movement, which we're now seeing again. And so that summer came together, Jim Kigster, the Holocaust denier, and then Zundel, Terry Long from the Aryan nations, Doug Christie from Western Canada concept, all of these neo-Nazis and white supremacists came together that summer.

And so I was alarmed by that. You know, I was playing in this punk band. So I started organizing rock against racism shows. The people that Rock Against Racism in Britain helped me out and sent me banners and stuff. And I put on Rock Against Racism shows. And the thing I found, and this is not a criticism of my peers, my fellow teenagers.

Some of the kids just, they didn't want to hear about politics. You know, I wanted to talk about politics. They didn't want to talk about politics. They just wanted to, you know, rock out. They wouldn't have a good time on a Friday night. And I couldn't fault them for that. But I felt, I guess what I discovered was music could only go so far. And I think that's still the case.

Some kids just don't want to hear about politics. So I was wearing my biker's jacket and my converse. And, you know, I looked around and the new Democrats in Alberta were irrelevant. The conservatives were playing. putting footsie with this Western separatism stuff. They were not condemning it. Much as the conservatives now are not condemning the new Western separatism.

And the only party that Reedy was against, it was a liberal party. So I went into the Alberta Liberal Party office. And Nick Taylor, who later became the center, was the leader. He met me. He didn't have a secretary. He just met me. And he looked at me and he said, are you here to rob the place?

And I said, no, I'm here to join up. And I gave him two bucks. I think membership was two bucks. And I joined. So that was how I crossed from punk rock into politics. And I never left punk rock. And, you know, I got punk friends who don't understand the politics. And I got political friends who don't understand the punk rock.

Right. I don't care. I mean, your ringtone just went off and it was the stooges. So, I mean, you haven't left punk rock. No, no, it's part of me. And it's part of who I am. And I love it. I love the music.

I still go to shows. I'm going to shows, a few shows, in the next few shows. few days. And, you know, I'll generally be the oldest guy there. And I went, you know, I went to a cancer bet show a couple of years ago. And all the band was at the front at the merch table. And they go, hi, Mr. Consell. So, um, so I'm known to love this music. But that's how I, you know, went across the bridge to politics and got more and more involved in that. And I moved to Ottawa to pursue journalism school. And that's how I make Kretzian and all these other kinds. So, you know, Kretchen, you said classical music, no punk rock in his diet here.

So how do you end up as, you know, media advisor? I was practicing law. So I got called to the bar and I was a young litigator in Ottawa and I was okay. I was okay at it, but I didn't love it. And it was one of those buildings I was in, you know, there was like a twin building and they had the food court in the middle. And at that point, Kretzian was out of politics and I used to see him. lined up, get his sandwich at the sandwich place,

and then he'd go sit down and look at the sports course. And so I was a sucker for that. And then the Meachalake Accord came along. Meech Lake Accord was going to give Quebec special constitutional status and is a lawyer. I believe inequality for everybody, and I believe special status is wrong. And the only politician out there was against it,

who had the guts to be against it, was Kretzian. So I phone them up. I say, hey, you know, if you're going to run again, I'll help you out. So they signed me up as a volunteer. And then he became leader. And he called me up and say, hey, come on. And I said, well, you know, I'm practicing law. He said, you can be a lawyer anytime, you know, let's go have some fun.

And, of course, we proceeded to have no fun whatsoever for the first few months. Because there was a Meets Lake Accord falling apart. We got blamed for that. It was a GST fight. We got blamed for that. And he had a scare, a health scare. So it was pretty awful. But then we got through it, and he ended up doing okay.

Yeah, he did all right. Absolutely. And is it true that his wife Eileen was a big, big booster of yours? Yeah, that's what it says on the Internet. Well, it's all over the place. That's why we got to get the definitive truth from the man himself. What say you?

Well, I defend my friends. I protect my friends and he was my friend and I didn't like some of the stuff that people were saying about them or doing to him. So I defended him and I guess Madame, as we called her, liked that and approved of that. And, you know, like I have friends who are New Democrats. I've got friends who are conservatives.

I've got friends who are liberals. To me, it's people. Like if you're in politics, you've got to love people. You've got to care about people. and he did. And so I was there because of him. And when he left, I left. That was it.

Are you still friends with Sean Kretchen? Yep. I mean, you know, he spoke out when Trump was doing the 51st state rhetoric we heard from Jean Kretchen. And I was thinking, get back into politics. Yeah. He's 92 years old. Still goes to work.

Still goes in the office. In the building where I met him, he now is back in that same building. and he, you know, he doesn't talk about politics very often, but like every Canadian, he's got an opinion on Trump, and it corresponds with the opinion of most Canadians, which is, you know, Trump is an asshole. Yeah, you said it, you said it, Supreme asshole. I like to add the adjective there.

Okay, now you did run also. It's worth noting that in 97, you did take a run at being elected as an MP. Yeah, 97. We'd moved out to Vancouver. I'd just become a dad. And that's when I decided, you know, to leave the hill. I'd been there for a few years. And, you know, the riding hadn't gone liberal in a generation, but I thought recklessly, I'd do it. But it was such fun. You know, and you learn a lot about yourself when you run your strengths and your weaknesses. I learned a lot. And it was a privilege. And so I got beaten by a reform party guy. and I would have been better at it than him. But, you know, that's the people in their wisdom decide, and the people are always right. That's the problem with democracy. Yeah, well, sometimes they make mistakes.

And Donald Trump is the most dramatic example of that. 77 million people made that mistake. And what gets me about that one, just a quick aside, is that they test drove the guy for a term. And then they collectively decided, let's go back to that. That is exactly the problem. You know, I worked for, as a volunteer, for Hillary, for Joe, for Biden,

and I worked as a volunteer for Harris. And the extraordinary thing about Trump, because you're quite right, the first term you can say was an outlier. It was, they didn't know or they didn't believe he'd be like that. But he was. He was like that. And then, so the second time,

my perspective is all the misery that you guys are experiencing in the United States, all the chaos, all the discord, all the problems, you richly deserve it. You chose this. wear it. So I don't feel sympathy for them at all. Do you take pleasure trips to the United States in the 2026? I have not. I have not been there since that son of a bitch came in.

The only time I went was, do you want to hear the story? Yeah. So it was for this documentary we've done called The Campaign, which came into the book, The Hidden Hand. And so my co-producers said, you know, you got to come, you got to come and interview Leon Panetta and all these other luminaries for the documentary. It's got to be you. I was like, okay, you should check out my social media. And the lawyer we hired phoned me up and said, yeah, we think you should carry a

burner from it. So anyway, I got, so Pearson, did the big lineup, get to the gate. A woman says, give me your passport, I handed a passport. She turns off her computer and says, come with me. So they took me to this back room. And it was me and a bunch of people of color, notably. And sit there, you can't talk to anything. So I had my Apple watch on and my co-executive producer saying messages,

we're like, where to hell are you? And I can't respond. And so finally I could see, she's sending me messages saying, the plane's taking off, please take it off. We need you. So I went over to speak to the woman, one of the people, and she said, we only speak to Americans first, go sit down. So I thought, okay, well, fine, fuck you.

So I'm just openly at that point using my phone and said, you know, I'm not going to make it. But the plane somehow got delayed. Anyway, I get called again. It's a different guy. And this is all he said to me. He said, you own this documentary company. And I said, yeah. And he says, you're a writer.

I said, yeah. He said, okay, you can go now. I said, do you want to see my passport or anything? He goes, and this is what he said. He said, no, we know who you are. And that was it, because I'm not a big Donald Trump fan. Anybody can see that on social media. So I got to the States, did my thing, got back home.

Get back home. Okay. And interesting. Wow. Okay. So I realize now that hour, Scott, is going to be fun here. We're going to move, cook with a little gas here. But it's worth noting that Paul, I guess Paul Martin, not a fan, right?

You were a Kretchen guy, so when Kretchen is replaced by Paul Martin, you peace out. Yeah, well, you know, like I said to you before, I defend my friends. You know, if you were my friend and somebody's attacking you, I'd defend you. And they were attacking him and he'd won three majorities, fair and square. And that's a pretty historic achievement. And they were impatient and they wanted power. And so I pushed back. And so none of those guys like me and I don't care.

They can kiss my ass. Right. So on our way to your writing, I want to talk about Dalton McGinty for a moment. So how do you get involved in the Dalton McGinty campaign? They called me and they said, you know, Kretzian was leaving. He'd announced he was going. And they said, will you come help us out? I said, yeah, sure. They're like, well, that was easy. I said, well, yeah, sure. So I ran his war rooms in 2003 and 7 and 11. And we won majorities in those.

And he was a good guy. He's like Kretzian. He married his high school sweetheart. And he was just a straight shooter. He was a good guy. He was a centrist. And he also did not understand the punk rock thing. What did he listen to?

So Kretchen is listening to classical music. I think Dalton, it's like yacht rock. I can see Dalton. Yeah. He's got Toto or something going on. Steely Dan, maybe. He's a steely Dan guy. Yeah, for sure.

And after a dildo. Yeah, yes, I know that. Earlier when you were talking about the Ramones, I was going to say, like, do you know how they got the name Ramones? And then I remembered, Oh, who am I talking to? Don't even waste his time.

Of course he knows, it's Paul Ramon, right? I had a woman over who wrote a book about the Beatles and style. Dear, I always said it wrong. Dear Dr. Jee Kelly, who wrote at the Globe and Mail for decades, she's at the art gallery. She's involved in this current exhibition, which is Paul McCartney's photography.

Cool. Have you checked that out yet? I've seen some of his stuff. Yeah, it's pretty good. Pretty, he's going to be all right. He's going to be all right. Still around too. Okay, here's the question I have.

It's regarding John Torrey. I do it quarterly with Ed Keenan from the Toronto Star, and we're always, will he run, will he won't, what's going on? He seems to still be with this lady friend that caused the scandal that caused him to resign. But so John Tori was the PC candidate when you're working with Dalton McGinty. and we all remember this faith-based schooling that seems to have sunk John Torrey and then of course Dalton McGinty had a very successful career.

But you've worked with John Tori on the municipal level, right? Yeah, yeah, he helped run a couple of his campaigns. You know, and he felt he was a good guy, and he left conservative politics, and, you know, it was a deal for me, too, because he was part of the ad that made fun of Kretchena's facial paralysis. So, and I think he appreciated the fact that I was willing to help him out. And, but he, you know, he surprised me.

Like, John's one of those guys you meet and you just figure he takes showers with his clothes on, you know. It's like he's one of those guys. And when I found out about this thing, you know, it happens to lots of people. But it was just disappointing, you know. And I said to him, well, you're. done. That's it. Like if you're like if you're a guy in politics, like the Italian politicians are like this, you know, they can have 15 mistresses and that's part of the schick. But if you're, your public offering is that you're a family guy. Right. And you're not. You're done.

See, I come at it from, I don't, I don't think he's done because he had a much younger lady friend when he was supposedly married. Like it's the fact that she worked at City Hall. That's exactly. No, That's right. No, we didn't get there. No, it's, no, I mean, Christ, you know, Clinton did what he did and became subsequently the most popular president in the history of polling. You're absolutely right.

It's that he did it with a woman who worked in his office and he broke his own ethics law. That's the problem. Right. And like you said, his brand, if you will, Keenan said at the Toronto Star, they call him one drink John Torrey. Like, like he's just, it's shocking to have any scandal of this nature. tied to that man. Yeah.

It shocked us. It shocked me. So I was like, you, that's it. And then so I'm helping out Brad Brad for now because I know him in the beach. I've got a place in the beach. And when my mom was dying, he was good to my mom.

You know, and like for me, that's all it is, right? I don't give a shit what somebody's position is on potholes or whatever. I'm against potholes. But you're anti-potholeole. That's our platform against platform.

But he was nice to my mom. So it's like that's it. And so I'm going to help him out. It really does look like he'll be the only, you know, conservative candidate, if you will, running in this municipal election. But he's more he spans, you know, like my background is, you know,

a lot of people think I'm a communist. And, but he is a centrist. I think that's the position he occupies. And Olivia, you know, I know Olivia too, and I've helped Olivia out in the past. Right. And she's a nice person.

But the problem she's gone is the city is just dramatically markedly worse. You know, in every indicator, traffic and pollution and crime and the cost of living here is just nuts. And, you know, it's, I'm looking for an agent of change and Bradford's that. Well, absolutely. So stay tuned. I will tell you that I recently, like within the last few weeks, I produce. a live event with Brad Bradford talking to a client and sponsor of this program, Nick Aienis for Nick's podcast, Building Toronto Skyline.

So I have spent some time with Brad recently as well. And Brad tells me, I think May 10 is the day the campaign officially begins. No, May 1st. Close, close, but no cigar. Regardless, after that date, he promises probably in May he will drop by for another chin wag here. I'll tell him he has to. He comes to my live event. he's a very big supporter of Toronto Mike tier.

Well, you know, I mean, the program is a big deal, and I know that, but also podcasts and what you do is bigger than talk radio now. I'm trying to be the punk rock of, you know, content. Well, that's a noble venture. It is do it yourself over here, as you can tell, in this low-ceiling basement. I see my lights flickering too.

I've got some work to do in the basement. Okay, so obviously I was going to ask you for a prediction here, but you're working with Brad Bradford, so I don't think you'll be very unbiased here. You think Brad can win. It's going to be tight. You know, they're a formidable machine that Olivia's got called Progress Toronto.

Yeah. And they play for keeps. And some people say they would say they cut corners. So I take them seriously. We're going to have to fight for every inch of territory. What is the equivalent on the, you know, center right of Progress Toronto?

I know Daniel Tate was starting something, but it seems to be the Daniel Tate's show. I don't know. There's a group out there. and I don't have anything to do with them. I don't know anything about them. But there are, you know, there are a lot of people who are mad at Olivia because she, they feel disappointed, you know,

that things didn't turn out the way she said. And, you know, the city has changed. And, you know, like in my case, I kind of move my base of operations to Prince Edward County. And, you know, that's where I live most of the time. And the air is cleaner and people are, known as unhappy. I've got to get in on that

action. Is that called Quinty Bay? What is that? It's, yeah, Bay, I always have a hard time pronouncing it. Listen, this is the home of mispronunciation here. I think I even mispronounce that word, but, okay, but yeah, Prince Edward County. Okay.

A lot of good people there. I want to just talk about your writing, because that's going to segue into the book. And the book is called The Hidden Hand, the Information War, and the Rise of Antisemitic propaganda. I do want to get into this. I'm quickly going to thank some partners that made this happen because I just thanked Nick Iini's. Again, his podcast is Building Toronto Skyline.

There's a recent live episode. We recorded it live in front of a pretty big crowd, a boisterous crowd. Of course, it was Bradford. It was a special guest. I have a fresh craft beer for you, Warren, courtesy of Great Lakes Brewery. They brew it right here in southern Etobico. You can take that with you today. I will.

Palma Pasta. Palma pasta, they're in Mississauga and Oak Vos. but people can go to palma pasta.com, delicious authentic Italian food. I have a lasagna in my freezer for you, Warren Kinsella. Thank you. I think that too. Yeah, and I got a measuring tape for you because you never know if you have to measure something.

You know, even an aged punker needs to measure things now and then. And that is, of course, courtesy of Ridley Funeral Home and they're pillars of this community, but they have a great podcast called Life's Undertaking. Thank you. Good name. Good name. And, yeah, he named it. it now we got in trouble we used i had an opening theme for that podcast that used a little bit of

john williams uh the composer a little bit of the imperial march in there and out of nowhere after a hundred episodes or so spotify sort of their algorithm detected it and it's been a nightmare man like it's like yeah it's a titch it's no money made on the podcast it's just two guys talking so don't use any john williams score don't use this unlicensed music in your podcast will nail you. I hope I don't get in trouble for playing your punk rock. You have my permission explicitly given to use it. Does the algorithm know? That's the question. Okay. So, last but not least, if anybody out there in this wonderful country of Canada has old electronics, old cables, old devices, maybe you got, maybe you got like blackberries and palm pilots sitting

in a drawer somewhere, Warren? Who knows? Don't throw it in the garbage because those chemicals will end up in our landfill.com.com.com.ca.com.ca. Put in your postal code and find it. where you can drop it off to be properly recycled. Recycle my electronics.ca. Got it, Warren? Got it. Okay. Now, you're currently writing for the Toronto Sun.

Is that right? Post media. So the Sun is who I filed to, and then it goes across the country. So post media here. Okay, now, where, like, when did you start right? Because we've kind of covered, okay, this punker guy, you get law school, journalism ends up working with some very successful campaigns. we talked about John Cretchen, we talked about Dalton McGinty,

and there's, of course, a lot of other you worked with, a lot of interesting people you worked with, of course. When did you start writing? And just give us a little 101 on you and your writing life. I loved Hemingway when I was a kid. My dad made a point of always making sure that we read the books that were on the Catholic Church's blacklist. So those are the books we would read first

because that's what he did when he was in high school. And I read a lot of Hemingway. and I remember Hemingway saying, if you want to be a writer, right. That's what you do. And it's like, you know,

you want to be a hockey player, you play hockey. So I've been writing a thousand words a day every single day of my life since I was 11 years old. Wow. And so I'm not very good,

but I can write. And so, yeah, I can tell you everything I've done every single day in my life since I was 11. So writing books, you know, people say to me, oh, that's, that's hard. And it's like, no, it's not.

The hard part's the research. The hard part is getting the facts right, but the writing part is fun. It's part of me. Okay. And what newspapers might we have read your work in through the years? All of them. I've been in All-Street Journal,

Globe and Mail, you name it, all of them. Okay. And at what point do you start? I guess I know the answer because I got a cheat sheet here. But at what point do you start writing books? Like, what was your first book? First book, again, came into my journalism. So during the bar admission course, I was working at the Ottawa citizen,

keep myself in Kraft Dinner. And I discovered a little story about Libyan spies active in Ottawa and Washington. And they had a travel agency as a front in both cities. So I got assigned to cover that. I was a summer student. And it was cool. And I got sent to Washington to cover it. And then so I turned.

Somebody said to me, well, you should turn that into a magazine story. It's a good magazine. So I did. And then somebody saw it in a magazine and said, we want to give you a book deal. And I was like, oh, okay, I don't know. I write a book. And so I wrote a book. They actually got scared away by libel.

Somebody made a libel threat. And so they dropped it and somebody else picked it up. And so that was in 1992. So I've written 11, most of them for Penguin Random. house and but I've done novels and I've written about music, I've written about politics, you know, all the stuff we've talked about, frankly.

And this one is about something else. The hidden hand, we're going to get into it. But you mentioned Hemingway and I'm curious, did you ever read William Burroughs' account of Hemingway's time in the city of Toronto? I did not. Burroughs... He just passed away.

Yeah, like the William Burroughs. I weekly. Oh, no, no, no, I thought you meant. Oh, I thought you meant. Oh, okay. Sorry, sorry. I, I wrote for I weekly for a time.

Okay, well, I wondered if you crossed passive. Only because he just passed away. And I read a lot of his work in I Weekly in the 90s. But he also wrote, yeah, the definitive account of Hemingway's time in Toronto when he was writing for the Toronto Star. But you can put that on your read list there. And last question about the sign, and then we're going to get into this new book here. But do you need to disclose, like, conflicts of interest when you're writing for post-media? Yep.

Yeah, absolutely. So I didn't, you know, I'm not going to write about Brad Bradford, right? That'd be wrong. And, but they're pretty good to me. You know, they're conservative editorially. But they let me kick the shit out of Donald Trump. They never change a word. They never, and I like writing for a tabloid.

I know a lot of snobs and journalism look down their nose at it. But you write for a tabloid, you know, you're going to make every word count. You've got to write to a smaller space. You've got to have an economy with your word. and having more of an emotional punch is welcome. You know, that dispassionate Globe and Mail, you know, Mr. Smith, 36, you know, shot his wife, you know, like we don't do that. And it's more reaching people's hearts than heads sometimes. And I dig that kind of writing.

So they're pretty good to me. Yeah, I only ask that conflict of interest question because I do notice that the Toronto Sun does let Brian Lilly cover Doug Ford's government. and I feel like there's a conflict there. Brian's a friend, no, but you know about it, right? You know. But I don't know that the readers always know about it. Like, I'm dialed in here, Warren. Like, I'm just, I just find that aspect interesting.

That's why I ask about the post-media and conflicts of interest. Yeah. Well, there, but they're, like, you know, you'd be amazed that relationships there are between politicos and journalists, and there's a lot of them. And, you know, the joke about me is I'm always using the words, full disclosure. sure. So I just put it all out there. Right. Because I've been burned too.

You know, I've been caught where somebody felt I should have been more disclosing more that I didn't. And they were right. You know, I should have been disclosing more. So now I disclose every damn thing. When Steve, Steve Paken is still at TVO in a smaller aspect. But back when he was all about TVO, I used to joke with him, like, you need, your conflicts of interest are so wide and varying all over the place. Like every episode should just be 15 minutes where you disclose all the conflicts and then maybe five minutes of content.

So he's all over the place. Okay, so he's got conflict left, right and center. Okay, question. So I'm going to read the junk. Actually, it's, okay, it's tough to read. Actually, I've got my readers on, but Warren Kinsella has fought anti-Semitism and racism and bigotry for years. He knows how to expose and oppose those who would seek to divide us.

So that is on the very top of the hidden hand, and that, of course, is the right honorable, Jean-Cretchen. So question off the top as we get into this. Do Jewish Canadians live in fear? They do. They do. Just in this city alone. A little school for Jewish kids, you know, four years old. Shot up, not once, not twice, but three times. Synagogues, fire bombed when people are at worship. Jewish neighborhoods, you know, predominantly Jewish neighborhoods, being terrorized, people holding up signs that go back to the protocols, the learned elders of Zion, you know, death threats, bomb threats,

like terrible, terrible things that a lot of us don't experience. They are afraid. And they, you know, every Jew I know has experienced anti-Semitism, and unfortunately at some point in their life. But since October 7, 2023, it has gotten dramatically worse. And that's what gave rise to the hidden hand. Yeah. So what's responsible for this ride in anti-Semitism since October 7?

They've gotten organized. The bad guys have always been there. You know, Hezbollah and Hamas and Iran and aided and embedded by China and Russia. They've always been there. But they've gotten way more organized. And that's what I observed. So October 7th, 2023, 1,200 Israeli men, women, children. and babies are slaughtered.

250 women and girls are sexually assaulted violently. 250 more were kidnapped, including children, and taken to Gaza and thousands of people grievously wounded. So when something like that happens to an ally, you would expect people would be sympathetic towards those people. They're obviously the victims of crime. And instead, what I observed happened, so before Israel even responded militarily to Hamas, there actually had been a ceasefire in place for many years at that point, before Israel did anything,

2,500 protests around the world in different languages, people using professionally made signs, using messaging that a guy like me in politics knows, is tested, focused-grouped messaging. And online were talking dominance by a factor of 90 to 1. Their messaging. And it was denial, denial of the rapes, denial of the atrocities, and promoting Nazism, promoting Hitler, promoting anti-Semitic messaging. And I turned to people I know in politics. And I said, geez, you know, this looks like a campaign.

And they said, this is a campaign. It's got money. It's got volunteers. It's got leadership. It's got tactics. It's got strategy, it's got messaging, it's got an online component, it's got a mainstream component.

It's a campaign. Yeah, a global propaganda campaign. Yeah, and those are hard to do. You know, like, it's hard for a multinational to do that. It's hard for a political party to do that, you know, an established political party. To do this on a global scale, in fact, it's never really happened before.

But when I was working on the book, you know, the only thing I learned in law school is to ask yourself the question, what if I'm wrong? What if I'm wrong? And I'm like, what if I'm chasing a conspiracy theory? And then the summer before last, when Biden was still president, the director of the National Security Service.

So basically the most informed intelligence officer in the world, Avril Haynes, made an unprecedented statement. And I talk about it in the book. And she said, she confirmed what I had been suspecting. Iran is paying for protests. Qatar is paying for protests. They are organizing what we're seeing in the streets and online, and people need to wake up to this fact.

And so that was a confirmation of what I believed and what I'd been writing about, and that's what the hidden hand is about, is this global, funded, well-organized, evil, malevolent, but extremely effective campaign. Where's the pushback? I mean, you know, you meant in the book, I read the book,

Hamas is winning this global propaganda, campaign and they wish to destroy Israel essentially, but where's the pushback? Pushback is not happening. Some places it is, but, you know, a lot of places it isn't. And the thing that amazes me, because I've been to Israel many times and I talk to people there about this, and they have a couple reactions. One is total despair, right? They just say to me, Warren, everybody in the world hates us. And then I'd say to them, well, why don't you do something about it? And they said, we can't just, it's, they'll never listen to us. So they've kind of given up.

And Israel, you know, unfortunately, has to change their perspective on that because they've got to tell their story. But in the West, you know, police and prosecutors and politicians and to some extent the public have become disinterested in this story and this problem. And if nothing else, they have a self-interest in paying attention to it because as my Jewish friends say to me, you know, they're coming from the Saturday. people now, which is the Jews, but they're going to come from the Sunday people next. And if you go to any of these protests and I have, and I just walk around and I'm a big guy and nobody bugs me, they don't say anything

to me. Call me names, but they don't do anything. And they're, for sure, their target is Jews and the Jewish state, but also Western democracy. They call us empire, right? It's not even Canada. It's empire. And so they are fighting a revolution

against an empire. And those of us who are not with them or quiet are seen as the enemy. And that's very reflected in the Hamas charter, their 1988 charter, where they are very clear and very honest about their objectives, which is to convert the world to Islam. And if you don't convert, if you don't comply, you will be killed. And so it's a very menacing and violent message that we're seeing in our streets with corner Bathurst and Shepherd every single weekend.

You can go and see, go check it out yourself. down in Dundas Square, as it used to be called. You can see it every weekend. You know, a friend of mine who's Palestinian. She's a Palestinian woman, Karim Assad, was assaulted last weekend. Broad daylight, right in front of the Aiton Center. She was assaulted, and her phone was stolen by some guy who eventually got caught. Like, that stuff's happening right here, right now in this city.

See, I've had on a gentleman named Shy Klein, who was at the Nova Music Festival, of all on October 7th and in great detail. It was quite an experience, quite an episode. He spoke about his experience and what he witnessed and everything like that. So when I read your book, what strikes me is this, the fact that there's a pro-Hamas stance by people, like seemingly regular people. I don't, I personally don't understand,

I can understand, I can wrap my head around free Palestine, like a pro-Palestine agenda, but I don't understand pro-Hamas, because on every level, Hamas, he appears to be a terrorist organization that attacked a sovereign nation. Like, I don't understand the pro-Hamas sentiment. I think it's a really important thing to say, which you've touched on.

Opposing the government of Benjamin Netanyahu, like I do. I've gone on protest marches in Israel, is not anti-Semitism. That's democracy. That's legitimate. But blaming individual Jews for the decisions that Netanyahu makes, That's anti-Semitism.

If you are doing that, if you are excusing violence against your Jewish neighbors here in Canada, because you're mad at Benjamin Netanyahu, you are committing anti-Semitism. It's Jew hatred. So that's a really important point to me. I'm glad you do this. Because I try to differentiate, too, because I will tell you, I have talked to some of my Jewish friends who deem any anti-Netanyahu, anti-Israel policy. sentiment as anti-Semitic.

And I feel what it does is it muddies the water because we must differentiate between the policies of a nation and a religious people. Yeah, he's a bad leader. He's a bad leader. I talk about it in the hidden hand. He facilitated millions of dollars going from Qatar into Gaza because they couldn't do money transfers

because it was against the law because Hamas, as you just pointed out, is a designated terrorist entity. so in order to buy peace, Netanyahu facilitated Hamas being funded. Everybody in Israel knows that. Everybody in Israel knows that, and I talk about it in the book, and that's yet another reason why he needs to be gone. He needs to go and retire and sit on the beach or whatever he's going to do, although he's facing three corruption trials.

Like, you know, the Jewish people don't deserve what they're getting around the world and in Israel, and I think a big part of some relief would be Netanyahu moving on to retirement. So in the meantime, though, your book is all talking about this global propaganda campaign by Hamas, and it seems to be like two-pronged attack, if you will, maybe a poor choice of words, but maybe not. But one is influence public opinion, and then two is to justify its violence. So I struggle to understand, and it speaks to that point I made before about this pro-Hamas stances, is how can that violence on October 7th be justified?

That is the question. And I saw it early on. So, you know, in that period before, Israel did not move in militarily into Gaza until the last week of October, 2023. So all these protests are happening around the world. And for, you know, a political guy like me, I'm like, what the hell?

Like, I don't understand what's going. on and then I started to see polling because guys like me always pay attention to polling and Harvard Harris people came out with a poll right after the seventh saying that 70 percent of gen z so people from the ages of about 18 to 24 sympathize with Hamas so I wow I said guys like me always so it's an outlier it's an outlier so I talked to a buddy who's a pollster here who would not give his name publicly so I could write about it because he was afraid of what would happened. I said, what are you afraid of, dude? And he told me 41% of Gen Z in Canada. So basically, that's about 3 million people support Hamas. They support Hamas. And then I said, that's terrible.

He said, that's nothing. He said, an equal number favor the use of violence against Jewish Canadians here. Wow. And I'm like, that's, that's insane. And he said, well, now you know why we're not putting our name on it. And so it's in the interim, it's just like that's October 20, 23. Since then, it's just gotten dramatically worse where we've got all these terrible events happening in Toronto and in Montreal, in Vancouver, and in London, in England, you know, in the past few days, like multiple synagogues being firebomb, thank God nobody's been killed. But there have been people killed in Washington, D.C., in Boulder, Colorado, and Minneapolis.

It's happening all over the place. this is the worst, you know, the older Jews that I talk to, who remember, they say this is the worst it's been since World War II. Wow. You know, off the top, I asked you, are Canadian Jews living in fear? And you answered yes. And I kind of ask that because we have a mutual friend.

I believe your buds with her, but Dana Levinson is a good friend. She's my sister of another mister. Yeah. And I produced her podcast for years. It's kind of on hiatus right now. It's called On the DL, but I've been working with Dana and we're good friends.

Her husband has the same birthday as me. But she said something and it really resonated with me because I have a little ignorance in this department and I try to understand and I listen. But she said she felt safer in Israel than she did in her GTA home. And she said that to me. And that really opened my eyes

because of how fearful she is for her safety, her security, her family here at home in GTA. I've talked to her about it too and lots of other Jews I know and I'm torn by it you know because they talk about there's a word called Alia do you know what Alia is Alia is making return to Israel to Israel to the homeland

and it's a program of the Israeli government to welcome if you're a Jew you're welcome home and that's what Alia is and I've had many many Jewish friends saying I'm afraid Warren you know I'm grateful for your support but I'm afraid for my kids, and we're going to move to Israel. And I'll say to them, like, emotionally, I understand that, but that's what the bad guys want.

You know, that's why they're shouting out at you. Go back to Poland. Go back to Israel. They want us, you know, they want you gone. And so I understand emotionally why you want to, but I hope that you don't because we need you here. Well, I'll tell you, Warren, I'm grateful for a couple things. One is that, A, you drop by for this great chat.

I hope we have another chat at some point because this was fantastic. Thank you. Thanks for having me. But thanks for writing the hidden hand. It opened my eyes to a whole bunch of stuff. And it's well written and there's a lot of, you know, facts and it's well cited. And I wonder as a citizen, as a commoner again, like yourself, a Gentile, like tell me what we citizens can do to help. What can we do?

If you're online, take a look at the end user agreement. The end user agreements, you know, the Zuckerberg and Musk say, you know, you're not allowed to promote hatred. or allow that to be fostered. Well, they're doing that. So push for better moderation. Say to governments that they need to, we don't need new laws. We've got plenty of laws on the books

that deal with this problem right now. You know, elections are coming up municipally. Election is going to come up federally and provincially. Push your politicians to enforce the laws that we got on the books. And then the thing that everybody can do as a citizen is don't trust TikTok. Don't trust X to find out the truth of him. history. Pick up a book.

Like, read the truth. Read the history. You don't have to read my book. If you want to, you can. But there's lots of good stuff out there to inform you about history. Don't believe what you're seeing online because a lot of it just isn't true. Good points. Good points. You're still active on X?

I am. Yes. I like to mix it up. I had to get out of there. I had a good chat with Mike Wilner, kind of related. But Mike said, hey, Mike, if you were drinking your great lakes at your local pub and you loved it there. And then one day you found out the owner was a Nazi.

Would you still drink there? And I said, no, I'd go find a new pub. And that was the last time I posted on next April 2024. No, 2025. So it's been a year now. But it was great. At one time, Cam mentioned it before Elon came in. Twitter was where a lot of great conversations happened.

And I thoroughly enjoyed it. But those days seem long over now. Yeah, that's true. But I believe, you know, I'm a liberal who grew up in Calgary. right? I believe in pushing back and fighting back. And like I say to my Jewish friends, if you leave, the bad guys are going to win the battlefield, right? So you've got to push back.

And that brings us to the end of our 1,886th show. Go to tronomite.com for all your Toronto mic needs. And this is important to everybody. I am headlining at the Elma combo on May 21st. That's exactly one month from today. So go to Toronto Mike.com. At the top, there should be a link for Elmo gig. And buy a couple of tickets.

I'll be joined on stage by my Paul Schaefer. His name is Rob Proust. He was keyboardist with the spoons and honeymoon suite. So this is all happening, May 21. About a 90-minute show. Come on out. Much love to all who made this possible. Again, that's Great Lakes Brewery.

Warren's got his fresh craft beer. Palmer Pasta, got a lasagna for him. Nick Aienies. I'll see him Friday morning. Recycle MyElectronics.ca and Ridley Funeral Home. There's a new episode of Life's Undertaking recording tomorrow with a new theme song. Got to check my calendar, Warren. Who's up next here on the Toronto Mike schedule?

Oh, tomorrow, Alan Zweig drops by. We're going to talk about his seminal documentary vinyl. And we're going to kick out some of his favorite songs from his vast, vinyl collection. See you all. Then.