Toronto Mike'd: The Official Toronto Mike Podcast - When Canadian Punks Took Over the World: Toronto Mike'd Podcast Episode 1718

Episode Date: June 24, 2025

In this 1718th episode of Toronto Mike'd, Mike chats with Matt Bobkin and Adam Feibel, authors of In Too Deep: When Canadian Punks Took Over the World, about Sum 41, Avril Lavigne, Gob, Simple Plan, Billy Talent, Fefe Dobson, Marianas Trench, Silverstein and Alexisonfire. Toronto Mike'd is proudly brought to you by Great Lakes Brewery, Palma Pasta, Ridley Funeral Home, Toronto Maple Leafs Baseball, Yes We Are Open, Nick Ainis and RecycleMyElectronics.ca. If you would like to support the show, we do have partner opportunities available. Please email Toronto Mike at [e-mail]

Welcome to episode 1718 of Toronto Miked, proudly brought to you by Great Lakes Brewery, a fiercely independent craft brewery who believes in supporting communities, good times and brewing amazing beer. Order online for free local home delivery in the GTA. Palma Pasta, enjoy the taste of fresh fresh homemade Italian pasta and entrees from Paul ma pasta in Mississauga and Oakville yes we are open an award-winning podcast from Manaris hosted by FOTM Al Gregor Toronto Maple Leafs baseball get your butts to Christie Pitts this summer for the best baseball in the city, outside the dome.

RecycleMyElectronics.ca, committing to our planet's future means properly recycling our electronics of the past. Building Toronto Skyline, a podcast and book from Nick Ienies, sponsored by Fusion Corp Construction Management Inc. and Ridley Funeral Home, pillars of the community since 1921. Today, making their Toronto Mike debut, it's the authors of When Canadian Punks Took Over the World. It's Adam Feibel and Matt Bobkin. Welcome, Adam, welcome, Matt. Oh, thank you so much for having us.

Yeah, thanks for inviting us over. I just said welcome, Matt. Yeah, people have called me that before you know. Welcome Matt. Okay that's uh could be worse okay. Honestly a pleasure to meet you both. I read when Canadian punks took over the world when I first received it many many months ago and then I don't know what happened. I got busy, I got distracted and I completely forgot to actually invite you both over to chat about it. Of course I want to chat about it and so I really appreciate you guys being here. Yeah, I know where it is. Just to clarify, the book is called In Too Deep. Oh, you know what? In Too Deep, when Canadian punk stick over the world.

Oh, there's a, you know what? Oh my God. Okay. Let me fix this right now. In Too Deep, of course, like the Sum 41 song into deep colon when Canadian By the wrong book. Okay, there's another book out there called when Canadian punks took over the world. It's about it's about the vile tones Harping well, let's start there and then we'll get into it and I pulled some songs and I I want to get to know you better I want to talk about like why did you write this book and what it's about and then touch on some of these bands you talk about. But like the first question I'm sure you get this often but like what is punk? Because you know maybe you speak for yourselves because I mentioned the Vialtones and I do want to touch on Stephen Leckie and the Vialtones and that takes us back to the late 70s early 80s but like what is punk? I we were asked this before and I went on this massive you got 90

minutes go tangent I'm gonna make it more succinct this time and say that it's with all the history and the different things and the sub genres of sub genres of song sub genres punk rock is is is four chords and an attitude. It really is about the attitude, right? Yeah, for me, punk is a reaction. Throughout the decades, if you have the early punk, the Clash, the CBGB scene, and you have hardcore in the 80s, and then pop punk in the 90s, 2000s,

and then the stuff that the kids are putting out today, it's all looking at the world and saying, something's gotta change, and getting aggressive about it. And so even though it sounds different, I think that ethos is similar. Because a lot of people think a punk, they think that is a sound like, oh, it's what that sex pistols guitar thing like it's an actual sound. But punk is a it's an attitude. Yeah, well, and it's interesting, I find if anything, like, because Adam and I get pushback, we got a lot of pushback when we announced the book just because they said, Oh, some 41 Avril Lavigne, that's not punk

music. And I think that they I mean, some in particular bears way more resemblance to like the clash sex pistols than like, I think hardcore in the 80s really created this tribalism, where it's like, that is what people I think associate with punk just like the the like lo-fi grungy nature but like original punk music is very clean and melodic sounding. Mm-hmm that's true so like and I think the different waves of punk rock you know kind of were I get like you said Matt a reaction to each other you know like original the things that were called punk and of course no one at the time was calling it that it just got called that in, you know, like original things that were called punk and of course no one

at the time was calling it that, it just got called that. In the, you know, it's origins in the 70s, yeah, it was very, it was, it was very melodic. It was very similar to just rock and roll music. But yeah, it had more of an attitude, it had more grit, it had a bit more speed. And then hardcore came in and, and just blew it all up way louder, way more aggressive, way more angry, way faster, and then as a reaction to that it's like you take that speed and aggression and then in the 90s with you know bands like Green Day and Known Effects, let's make it more melodic again, let's make it more poppy, and so they did

that and then it's kind of constantly giving and taking in terms of those kind of different sides of what we associate with the punk rock sound. Yeah, because we recently lost Stephen Leckie, I heard the rest in peace. We say shout out to Ridley Funeral Home on this show. So shout out to Ridley Funeral Home. We lost Stephen Leckie like last week. He's the founding member and singer for The Vile Tones. And as a result, you know, I've been playing some Vile Tones and singer for the Vile Tones and as a result, you

know, I've been playing some Vile Tones and talking about the Vile Tones. You know, a lot of people listening don't know a Vile Tone song and aren't sure who is Stephen Leckie, who are the Vile Tones, so I did a whole episode called Who Was Stephen Leckie, but there's very little, I don't hear a lot of similarities between what the Vile Tones were recording and what Avril Lavigne was recording. So like Avril has that attitude that puts her in the the punk bucket. Mm-hmm. And I mean, you know, with Stephen Leckie, what he represented calling himself Nazi dog, you know, all that kind of iconography. I mean, you know, you look at Avril Lavigne,

she said, okay, I'm a teenage girl in the pop world. I want to make music. And all of the young women at the time, Britney Spears, Christina Aguilera were all dressing up. You know, they all wanted to be the next Madonna. They were all put in this mold and she could not be controlled. That is so punk to me. Okay. We're going to get into Avril, a bunch of the bands you talk about.

So I'm going to just shout out bands that or artists that get their own chapter in this fine Book, which is actually called in too deep. I don't know who spread this bad rumor. It was called when Canadian punks took over the world That's like after the colon. Okay, I mean that's better SEO frankly There's no other book called when Canadian punks took over the world if you if you search in too deep It's a Jack Reacher novel as well. Unfortunately. yeah that is that is bad SEO you should have reversed it when Canadians punk took over the world colon into deep okay all right well when we revise it well you know deluxe edition ten years so I mentioned Ridley funeral home so really quickly I want to give you guys a measuring tape for making the trek this

is courtesy of Ridley funeral home who have a great podcast called Life's Undertaking. So shout out to Ridley Funeral Home measure what you wish. The success of Canadian punk bands. I'll measure the trek from Harbord Village. I was gonna say I said this to Adam before you arrived because where he came from I said oh you should have biked but then I realized you'd be dripping wet like you'd be like where's the shower? It's like 40,000 degrees outside in Toronto right now. I need to install a shower down here, but I'm worried that maybe you won't be able to like

stand up fully. You'd have to be bent over for a shower down here. So let's establish who you guys are before we dive deep into deep. Who are you guys? So let's start with Adam since he arrived first. Adam, give us a little background who you are, that you, who are you to write a book about Canadian punk? So, I mean, Matt and I have both been music writers for I think over ten years now and I grew up in Ottawa and I was kind of part of the punk rock scene there during the late

2000s, early to mid 2010s, you know, playing in bands my whole youth and early in my early 20s. And I've lived in Toronto for the last 10 years and Matt and I met from working. I've been a freelance contributor for exclaim ever since I came here to Toronto and that was my editor for for several years. Matt does look like the editor of the two of you as I look at him. It's the glasses. So Exclaim, I was reading up, who are these music journalists? Okay, Bandcamp, Vice, The National Post and the Toronto Star, a couple of

mainstream media outlets right there. So you guys have been writing about music forever. So what made you want to write this book? So when I was coming up freelancing for Exclaim, for Vice, I wasn't writing about pop punk or punk rock at all. I grew up watching much music in the early 2000s, obsessed with it, and that's how I got into all those bands. But then by the time I was in high school, I was like the quintessential indie rock guy, which is the bearded, bespectacled, you know, patterned shirt guy you see before you

and that you can hear. Handsome man, right, right Adam? Yes, yes, very much so. Well Adam's handsome too, like you guys are both handsome. Oh absolutely, thank you. And so when I was at at exclaim I was indie rock guy and then became an editor there fears in and then

Around the time Adam and I were turning 30 We struck up a friendship because we loved Billy talent and we're being vocal about it We hadn't written about Billy Billy talent for exclaim ever but we were Talking about it on Twitter at the time and then I looked through the Exclaim archives and realized that Exclaim hated Billy Talent and critics writ large hated Billy Talent. This is a band I'd loved since I was a kid. And then over the course of a year,

Adam wrote a story, a critical reappraisal of Billy Talent for their second album, Billy Talent 2. And then we realized that that extended to all of these Canadian punk bands that were mainstream famous but didn't get any critical love. And us as critics for about a decade at that point decided you know what, now's our time, let's give it a shot. There's this big story here about the trove of Canadian pop punk, mainstream punk music. How did Canada get so much success

on the world stage? That is not something that comes often for homegrown Canadian artists. And so we noticed that this double issue here of there's all these Canadian punk artists that have kind of gone unheralded by critics and where did this wealth of Canadian punk come from? And so we decided to tackle it in a book because it was this giant idea. Yeah, and it all kind of ties together

and I love to see how all the pieces fit together. So you mentioned Billy Talent, we're gonna get into Billy Talent shortly because I am like you guys, I didn't know about this critical backlash. So I was unaware that the critics hated Billy Talent. I thought they sounded great. Yeah, absolutely.

I mean, what's wrong with these critics? Like they just, they hate us having a good time here. What's going on? I know it was the same, you know, as we went along and realized I mean, what's wrong with these critics? Like they just, they hate us having a good time here. What's going on? And I was in theory. It was the same, you know, as we went along and realized that there was this huge movement in the 2000s of Canadian artists being part of a, you know, movement in pop culture at the time of that,

the time when punk rock and emo like ascended to that higher plane of being all over MTV and all over the radio and Warped Tour being just like the biggest thing ever, we realized that the others, you know, Sum 41, Avril Lavigne, Simple Plan, they all had lots of haters as well and that didn't, you know, we set out to tell the story ultimately of how each of these artists got from, you know, the suburbs of Montreal or of these artists got from you know the suburbs of Montreal or of Ajax Ontario or of St. Catharines and became these kind of

world-conquering globe-trotting artists but part of that also was just that you know giving some long overdue you know credit to and counter to counter that critical negativity and fans too. The punk police have been around for a long time. Oh, we're gonna hear from the punk police when I draw. I can tell you because I do a lot of episodes with the Al Nolans, like the real heads from the scene back, David Quinton Steinberg from the mods. I could cleave Anderson who was in Battered wives, like we can go on and on. I just had Liz Worth on to talk

because she wrote the book on that late 70s early 80s scene that we talked about for a moment. And we did this the Vile Tones episode tribute to Stephen Leckie with Kirei Papouts whose dad was Chris Haight, founding member of the Vile Tones. And by the way, I'm glad these bands were going to talk about, nobody took a nickname that had the word Nazi in it. So I think that was a good progress. Yeah. There's no Nazi dogs in this group here.

No. Okay. So I'll shuttle quickly the bands, artists that get a heavy spotlight in the book in too deep, which I do recommend. I read it twice and then I'll explain why I'm glad you wrote this book. So Gob, Sum 41, Avril Lavigne, Simple Plan, Billy Talent, Silverstein, Alexis on Fire, Fifi Dobson, Marianas Trench. These are the artists that get like a major spotlight, but

get touch on a whole bunch of other artists from the scene. And here's why I'm glad you're with the book. I've been doing this show a long time. I don't know, 12, 13 years. And this is episode 1,718 and I love music. So I gravitate towards, you know, talking to musicians and talking about music. That's why you guys are here right now. But I noticed I'll touch on the eighties quite a bit. I'll do an 80s thing because that's when I was kind of growing up. And I'll do it. I will touch on 2000s, not as much as I probably should, but I really like live in the 90s. Like my focus is on the 90s bands. Like let's talk Rusty, Lowest of the Low, like let's kill Joys. Let's get into that scene right there. I don't know, Sloan. is kind of where I live So reading your book really filled in a lot of cracks for me because I kind of got distracted

I started having kids I stayed in the 90s when the 2000s are right Like I really appreciate that this scene that I did, you know, you couldn't miss Avril Lavigne You couldn't miss some 41, but you guys really did a good job Talking to people from the scene and connecting those dots which personally I crave I want to connect these dots. So thank you. Yeah. Well, thank you. Thank you for reading it twice and thank you for Twice we appreciate that The research was like a point of pride in this as well as getting you know digging up these stories that you know may have been kind of an underbaked Wikipedia page and

Blowing them up into the full story that they are. So I mentioned I like to play a little music. I know I can't play music on the show. I do it anyways because I am a rebel without a cause. That's punk. I'm so, you know what, I am so, that's why I'm fiercely independent. You're in a dank basement. I think you asked, do I need a coaster for my coffee, Alex?

I mean, Adam, sorry. Alex, can I call you asked do I need a coaster for my coffee, Alex, I mean Adam, sorry, Alex, can I call you Alex? Is that okay? No. You could. I have been called Alex before. I was so close, Alex, so close. So you asked do I need a coaster for my Tim Horton's coffee here and I almost laughed out loud. I'm like do you know where you are, Adam? You don't need a coaster here. Okay, so I'm gonna hit a lot of tunes, but I need to invite both of you and everyone listening to an event that's happening in two days We're recording on Tuesday, June 24, 2025 and on Thursday, June 26, 2025 It's TML X 19. That's the 19th Toronto Mike listener experience and listeners guests

We're gonna gather at Great Lakes Brewery guests. We're gonna gather at Great Lakes Brewery, which is 30 Queen Elizabeth Boulevard down the street from the Costco in South Etobicoke, not too far from Royal York and Queensway. We're gonna gather. Great Lakes Brewery will buy you your first beer. You two gents, before you leave, I have fresh craft beer around the corner I'm gonna give you. So you're gonna bring home some Great Lakes beer for you. Thank you. Enjoy. But on Thursday, you get your first on the house and then Palma pasta, the most delicious Italian food on the planet.

Even including Italy in there, okay? It's better here in Mississauga. They're gonna feed everybody. So come hungry. If you two showed up, I'm telling you, there'd be some gob talk at the TMLX 19, but you're invited from six to nine PM TMLX 19. You guys ready to get to it?

Mike, I never called you the Nardoir of Toronto, just with the gift. Just no, I actually, so there's a blind spot. Let's just touch on this right now because, uh, 12 36, who is a FOTM hall of Famer sent me a clip of Nardoir throwing out the first pitch at a Cubs game. This happened like, I guess recently I threw out the first pitch at a Cubs game. This happened like I guess recently. I threw out the first pitch at a Toronto Maple Leafs baseball game at Christie Pitts and I was quite honored to get that opportunity. You two are getting a history book of Toronto Maple Leafs baseball. They play at Christie Pitts. I go see them. Awesome to hear that because there's no ticket

required. You enjoy it. You sit on the hill. You get a hot dog or a hot dog if you will. You get a Leafs logger, you enjoy the game. I urge everybody to check out Toronto Maple Leafs baseball. But Nardoir, I think when he gets a national spotlight, which I think is much music, it's in the 2000s, and at that point I've moved on from much.

I watched so much, much in the mid to late 80s, and throughout the 90s I watched so much much music But I aged out by the time Nard war got there and I literally don't know this guy Like it's a complete blind spot It's Nard wars one of those people that people don't realize is Canadian because like a lot of my American friends Who are around my age? They all know Nard war all the the Gen Zers know Nard war He's huge on it like he's twitch streaming. He's massive on it, like he's Twitch streaming, and he's massive on YouTube. Cup game, that's Chicago,

so you know he's not Canada famous. Yeah, oh no, he's international famous. We actually tried to get Nardoir to write the foreword for the book, and I sent him a bunch of emails. My old bosses at Exclaim are pals with Nardoir through the record scene in Vancouver, and they told me to send him a mail a letter to him.

And so I did, I went to the post office, I mailed him a letter and I got a Christmas postcard back from him saying, hey, sorry, I can't do it, but here's a postcard. So shout out to Nardoir. Okay, well, shout out to Nardoir, a blind spot, but that's on me, because I checked out a much, I think just around that time,

but Nardoir, a Vancouver guy, right? Yes, very much. All right, so let's get to the tunes here. Maybe later in this chat, you mentioned writing, it's like a piece of snail mail to somebody to, I did that for somebody and I wanna talk about him a little later, it's not really music related, but here we go.

["Snail Mail"] I've seen you now about the fourth time baby But you know that I got nothing to say It's such a shame that I couldn't make your new face Put your eyes in front of something I just can't do now I've been around and bought your heart I'm looking for you Just to shine some light on my game Since I gained your sense, I've been on your way I've been caught up with a handful of new sensations I hear you calling, calling for me out in the night

But it's all bad And I know that I see you now about to feel All right, a little taste of Vancouver's gob. Let's start here. Your book actually starts here as well, but you mentioned Nardoir, you mentioned the scene. Again, we're not going to read the book for the listener. We're just going to touch on some of the bands and I have a few questions and people got to get in

too deep to get the deep dive here and it's worth it man. It's very dense and there's lots of great stories and a lot of dots are connected. But tell me about Gob. So we argue that Gob are Canada's first real big pop punk band. I mean when you have Green Day that emerges in the early 90s out of Southern California, Gob up in Vancouver, so pretty quick drive up. They are the ones really carrying that torch saying that Vancouver's a hardcore city.

We got DOA, SNFU ends up relocating there. Degloze. Pardon? Degloze. Yeah, yeah. They might be Victoria actually, but yeahating their, pardon? Yeah. Yeah. They might be Victoria actually, but yeah. BC it was very, yeah. Very hardcore scene. Yeah. Canada's hardcore stronghold, I'd say for sure.

And so, although you know, Biff naked lives here now. Yeah, that's true. Just want to point that out. She's a MIMICO. I mean, you know, everyone, everyone comes to Toronto eventually. And, and, and so Gob says, no, it's, it's not those guys. Like they're, they're great, but we want to make the melodic stuff. And so Gob says, no, it's not those guys.

They're great, but we wanna make the melodic stuff. They like Screeching Weasel and just the Fat Rack scene and all that stuff. Lookout records. Right, right. Green Day, they were just obsessed with that label. Right, yeah. And so they are carrying that torch in Vancouver

and they're like the only ones. They're kinda outcast in the scene for a bit. And then within a couple years, I mean, they got big on much music. Well, this is where I, this is where I discovered gob, because I'm still watching much music at this point. There was a lot of gob on much music. Was it soda? Cause soda was the, that was, you know, that was the first big video that

everyone like, um, there were a few, like when I was yesterday, I was going to pull a song, like I was going to pick one song from select artists. I did go through a bunch and I did recognize a whole whack of gob and this one felt like okay This one kind of fits that sound This is the one I'm gonna gonna play and they kind of figured out how to how to play the much music game To their benefit and they had short songs so they could kind of stick on at the end of the hour But the can corn percent that's the song two trick, I think. And so yeah, like they didn't get as big as you know, a Sum 41 for example, but they got as big as a you know, as mainstream as a punk rock band I think had gotten to that point. And so they kind

of set up, you know, that chapter tells tells their story but it also introduces all these concepts of how hard it is for Canadian artists to get out of Canada to to get play. And like a continuing theme in the book and I'm always interested in how the cake gets baked but it's like getting screwed over by record labels and like I mean the Fifi Dobson story for example and it's just like okay we're dropping you now and like a whole bunch of you know it just seems like the game is rigged yeah it doesn't favor the artist well and one of the things we wanted to do with the book was it's not nine separate chapters that you could read at any order we wanted to tell a singular story this kind of rise and fall of this

Canadian punk dominance. And part of that is, you know, gob, I think is this almost cautionary tale of like careful what you wish for and that like they just got burned at every turn. And then they finally make a big, they signed to a major label in the early 2000s in the wake of some 41 and then they got dropped basically instantly. A lot of cases of that throughout. And I mean, I have been told, and I think we set it up this way As well that you can just read, you know select chapters if you don't if you care about one more than the other

But there is it definitely why would you do that? Like just read it in order? There is a narrative through line. Yeah. Yeah, and we want the people who only like maybe one or two of these bands So be like what's Fifi Dobson doing here? What's Marianne's Trance was Avril Lavigne doing here And then to go in and then realize the significance of these artists? Because I think they all tell a say they all paint a single picture. Like there's an artist that's got a chapter We'll get to it later. I Literally know nothing about like there is one artist on this list. I know nothing about so it's just a blind spot I've got a bunch of blind spots here

But so an FOTM is a friend of Toronto Mike you two are now FOTM. So welcome to the fraternity. Thank you so much. Thanks for having us. I'm going to just drop names of FOTMs that seem to play a role in some of these band stories. So for Gob, and I dug that song listening to it in the headphones now here in 2025, it's still digging it. But what role does FOTM Jason Priestley play in the rise of Gob? FOTM Jason Priestley play in the rise of gob Jason would directed the video for

Which which video was it was it that one? No, it's not it wasn't that one I want it was on the before that from their second album and I just David Mulligan starred in well There's the other I wanted to ask you about Terry David Mulligan because you mentioned much music Well, it's I can't remember is is Terry still involved with much West at this time like does he still have the pull at much music at this time? Yeah I believe so he was maybe he yeah because he was still in in like around like early some 41 days I feel like he was there until maybe 2000 2001. He's always the the older VJ guy hanging around there. He's so cool he's still so he's one of the first people we talked to for the Okay, he was always the older VJ guy hanging around there.

He's so cool, he's still so cool. He's one of the first people we talked to for the book and he is really lovely. And he just, he rode for Gob. You know, he just loved the music and he loved hanging out with the guys that they were just like these fun guys to hang out with and he was like, I'm just gonna boost you, you know, like I'm gonna do what I can to get you on much and to just help you because I like your band. I'm gonna do what I can to get you on much and to just help you because I like your band So this past weekend my third born played in this tournament in Scarborough a legendary they call it an international tournament I don't know if that's true, but they call it that but they it's the Robbie. Okay, so the Robbie it's for cystic fibrosis

It's a wonderful event and my kid had a was in a soccer tournament as part of the Robbie and the final line of the Billboard Hot 100 number one hit by Scarborough's Bare Naked Ladies is Birchmount Stadium home of the Robbie like this is the line that Stephen Page sings like so there's a Billboard Hot 100 hit that shouts out this Scarborough tournament which is mind-blowing but the reason I'm bringing up Bare Naked Ladies who obviously predate your era here, and they're not quite punk, are they? But Bare Naked Ladies, they got an attitude over there, okay. But Bare Naked Ladies also received great, they were lifted by Jason Priestley, who got them on the Peach Pit on 90210, and then directed, I think it was the old apartment, maybe?

But he directed, I think it was old apartment, but the role of Jason Priestley in helping Bare Naked Ladies from Scarborough is almost replicated with Vancouver's Gob. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, he really rode for these Canadian bands and yeah, shout out to Jason Priestley. We tried to talk to him, but... You know what? I could have helped you because FOTM gear Joyce has Jason Priestley on Speed Dial and I know he

loves talking about punk. Expanded edition, we'll do it in 10 years. Yeah for sure that's the rule. Okay so again I don't want you guys here for three hours here so I'm just gonna move on to a bigger band at least internationally maybe not in Vancouver but a bigger band I'm gonna go ahead and start the party like my name was El Nino When I'm hanging out, drinking in the back without coming to own kids With a skin, no one knew my name Tried my own house party cause nobody came I know I'm not the one you thought you knew back in high school Never going, never showing up where we at to

Attention that we crave, don't tell us to behave I'm sick of always hearing that you're rich I don't wanna waste my time Become another casualty of society I'll never fall in line Welcome to the stage from Ajax, Ontario. This is Sum 41. I almost forget how much that intro sounds like Beastie Boys. Oh no, so I actually disliked this at first because it felt like a knockoff of Beastie Boys and I was a big Beastie Boys fan.

Absolutely. It's so Beastie Boys. Man, listen, every time I listen to this song now I'm like, how could this not be a hit? Especially for the time and place. It's so huge. Regardless of even whether you particularly like it or not or if it's your thing, it's just got like, they talk about star quality. It's a song that just embodies some star quality.

And that chorus is gigantic. That chorus is huge and it has nothing to do with Beastie Boys. And the fact that it melds so seamlessly together really just shows the brilliance that these guys had in the studio as like teenagers. At age 19 or whatever they were. And they were huge.

I think this part too, like it's quite a single. Like, so this was not a hit internationally, Fatlip. Fatlip, yeah. Okay, so what, okay. Fatlip was- I thought you mentioned, how could this not- Oh, I see. It was, I was just saying it was destined for it.

Undeniable note, this was their breakout. Yeah. Like if it had a name that was probably a little more evocative, we probably would have called the book that. We had to go with it too deep, but this is a breakthrough. We couldn't call the book Fat Lip. Well, you know, the sequel could be called Fat Lip. That's true. When we get Jason Priestley on the line. Excellent. For sure. So I want to ask you about another bar. And this is a little controversial because of allegations made by Derek regarding Greg Norrie,

but Treblecharger, can we just talk about the role of Treblecharger in the rise of Sum 41? So one of the things that we kind of discovered through the research was that Greg Norrie, who managed Sum 41 through their rise to fame, you know, lead singer of Treblecharger, he was not mentioned a ton when we were talking to the band's publicist and the A&R rep. And so I believe, like we kind of realized that maybe his role was a little overinflated in the press. That they had a crack team of people, you know,

like Parkside Mike Renaud, who, you know, worked at Aquarius Records, Joanne Setrington, their first big publicist. And they're still in the band's orbit and they were brought up a lot. Mike McCarty, I think also, who was the publisher of EMI Music Publishing Canada, who signed them to a publishing deal

when they were in their teens through Mark Costanzo of Lenn. And these are all names that the band members bring up still to this day and that each other, they're all still friends and they're all still close to each other. And so with Greg, we realized he wasn't actually like that big in the story that we were getting

in the interviews and also through our research. But I mean, they would likely be playing down the role of Greg considering what Derek has alleged. I mean, the way the story goes is that, it's complicated. A lot of these people also, I mean the the store the way the story goes is that it's comp a lot of these people also I mean this was all before the allegations came out and so it's unclear who knew what who was You know saying what for what reasons but ultimately that is like the story that we were hearing in the story that we were telling Greg just wasn't involved all that much Okay, and you mentioned Len there for a moment.

So like, where does Len play into this? And I'm trying to remember, is that late 90s? When was the Steel My Sunshine? I think it was 97. 97, oh, yeah. And so Derek Wibley was in the room when Mark Costanzo was writing Steel My Sunshine, which the inspiration of which was Brendan Canning of Head Future

Broken Social Scene co-founder. Sure. And FOTM. Oh, excellent. Yeah, he played a song in a DJ set, Brendan did, and Mark Costanzo turned that into the beat of Steal My Sunshine and Derek was around. More, more, more. Exactly.

Which is catchy as fuck. Yeah. Although that's like the one bar in the entire song that sounds like that. And Mark just heard it and flipped it. The rest of the song doesn't really sound like it. It's amazing. There's a yeah, there's a moment in it where you can hear the loop it but in the they have a radio version of Steal My Sunshine.

And then they have the album cut. And on the album cut, you get that I almost think it's a Canadian thing or something with people talk although weezer does it too, but the talking at the beginning like you hear a conversation and Canning is one of the voices chatting at the beginning of the album version of steel my sunshine Now only because I was hanging with him the other day and he's gonna be at TML X 19 So if you guys showed up at TMLX 19, you could hang with the snowman. But does snow I know snow was doing stuff with Greg Noy does snow play and land a snow have a role in in this story at all? I'm just trying to get him in the story. He's not in

the book. Not in our story. Not our story, but not in the story that we wrote the chapter. But I believe there is an Easter egg that you know, a story about an early version of Into Deep that was kind of like a reggae mashup with snow. Yeah, so for your next book, I asked explicitly Snow about this version. So yeah, there's an alternate version or something with snow on it. And which the story was broken by the blink 155 podcast Which is co-hosted by Sam Sutherland who hosted our album or book launch. It's kind of an album launch though That was the vibe Really and also my old exclaim co-worker Josiah Hughes. So yeah, you know, it's all connected. Everybody knows each other

Well, it's a small world anyway, but super if you will. This Canadian music yeah right right this in the Canadian music world this is why I liked your book because it did fill in some gaps and then you can see how and I took a few notes on how things are connected but it this is such a small infrastructure this Canadian music universe but it's good to see a band like Sum 41 sort of become globally big where Gobb didn't quite reach those heights. Yeah I mean Gobb got close and it got had a bit of a breakthrough with you know especially in their EA Sports NHL games which is how many people

discovered them as well as just kind of punk rock in general. But yeah, Sum 41 is the moment where they just, they go to number one on MTV on the Total Request Live. And after that, Fat Live becomes this huge hit. And then they have In Too Deep and that becomes a huge hit. And then the next year they make a second album and it's huge as well. And they're just a major part of the early to mid 2000s. And they're also just indicative of a point in pop culture

where punk rock is now mainstream. It's a, and it had been, had breakthroughs with, you know, with Green Day and The Offspring in the nineties, but it- Blink 182? Yeah, and Blink 182 by 99. But at this point, you know, with Blink 182 in there and Blink 182 by 99 but at this point you know with Blink 182 in there and with all these other bands coming up like Sum 41 it's now like a it's a whole thing it's not just one band here or there it's a it's a huge movement. Well that 1994 one-two punch of uh Dookie do you

guys say Dookie or Dookie? I say Dookie. This came up recently. Dookie? Trying to remember a friend of mine razzed me about it and I don't remember which one I actually do I've done both Over the years, I think I said dookie any any I say I've only ever heard it pronounced dookie Okay, well, you know what? It's probably do but I've changed over the years and I've been listening that record a long time So so dookie and smash the dog too. I call it dookie It's Dutch. It's you know, I still mean that those two back-to-back kind of yeah, it's sort of this punk pop thing is now mainstream. So let's go. Let's fucking go as they say. But I love the fact that in this small world that the lead singer Derek Wibbly of Sum 41 will end up married to this woman right here. He was a punk, and she did ballet What more can I say? He wanted her, she'd never tell Secretly she wanted him as well

And all of her friends, stuck up their nose They had a problem with his baggy clothes He was a skater boy, she said, see you later, boy. He wasn't good enough for her. She had a pretty face, but her head was off his face. She needed to come back down to earth. Woo! Five years from now. Complicated came first, right? Yeah.

Yeah, second single. It did. But I was at a family bat mitzvah recently and this lit up the dance floor. The 13 year old girl, 12 year old girls are still losing it to Skater Boy and they know all the words. Are they dressing like Avril? That was quite a look. Not at the bat mitzvahs.

I don't think that ever. I'm sure there must have been at least one Avril themed bat mitzvah at some point, but I doubt there are Jewish parents in the world that would let their daughter wear the the tank and tie to a Bat Mitzvah. It's a bit of a holy occasion. Avril Lavigne comes from Napanee, Ontario. Which I know because if I'm driving to Ottawa, I'll see like a sign for it. En route. Yeah, I've done that drive many, many times and The enroute, yeah. I've done that drive many, many times. And yeah, shout out Napinie. So who was bigger?

Avril was bigger than Sum 41, right? In the global stage. Yeah, easily the biggest artist of the nine. We did a little Google Trends mapping, world mapping, and we had to take Avril out of it because she just, whatever color she was in the Google Trends map, she just floods the world. She is far and away a bigger artist than anyone.

So what I want to ask about Avril, so again, a lot of great detail in the book about, you know, teenage Avril and trying to shape her sound and what she would sound like and everything, but can you just talk about the role of the Matrix? And I'm not talking about the Keanu Reeves movie gets confusing there, but because the three big bangers from Let's Go are all Matrix productions, right? Let Go, yeah. Let Go. What did I call it? Let's Go. Okay, no. Yeah, Let Go. Let's get that right. Okay, The Matrix. Yeah, so that was a three-person writing team of a husband and wife and a friend who were brought in after Avril had kind of bounced around a bunch of different songwriting teams that the label had set up with her and that weren't really

working out largely because Avril was pushing back against the type of music that they were expecting her to make which was like a Faith Hill type because she came from you know singing it in in church and at country festivals and town halls in in Napanee. Opening for Shania Twain. Yeah and there was this image of her as this as this person that she was going to be the next Faith Hill or maybe the next Shania Twain but by that point you know and she's still 15 at this point and she's only just discovering what her personal sound and personal identity is.

And she's, you know, become a skater. She's hanging out at the skate parks. She's listening to punk rock bands and even rock and metal bands, you know, getting into Green Day and No Effects and also Metallica and System It Down and stuff like that. And so she is like, by the time it's assigned to a million dollar major label deal,

she's like, oh, I don't wanna be Faith Hill. And so she's bouncing around songwriters a lot, pushing back quite a bit. And The Matrix is the one that kind of unlocked a bit of a sound that was a compromise between what she wanted to do and the label wanted hits. They wanted pop hits. And so you get complicated, which is not really a punk rock song, what she wanted to do and what and the label wanted hits, you know, they wanted pop hits and so

you get complicated, which is not really a punk rock song, but Skater Boy is a pop punk banger and you know, I'll stand behind that a thousand percent and that's, you know, that's where you get that and then after that, after that, she doesn't want anything to do with any of those songwriters. I don't know, on her second album, she's like, I'm gonna choose my own songwriters and I get to, because this album did amazing. So you gotta let me do what I do.

Well, I'm gonna get to some of those songwriters for sure, one of whom was in this basement just late last year, had a great chat with her. But so the three big bangers, what's the name of that ballad, the third one, that was a huge hit? I'm With You. I'm with you. I'm with you.

It's a nice song actually. But those three, all three of those, but ask me to name a four song from Let Go. Go ahead. Okay, so. Do you want me to? Yeah. You don't have to do it.

You gotta listen to Losing Grip. You got it the first trap on the record and it's massive. I think I could, I think, I think almost all my Avril exposure was much music I think that's the so those three big bangers But they were all the matrix and she didn't want to work with the matrix again for this the second album But she did want to work with Chantel Kravya check. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And of course, she's married. I kind of like how all these people are connected

I mean Avril landed up married to the guy from Nickelback for God's sakes But like rain madea from our lady piece who's of course still married to Chantel Kravyachuk you know they met they were they were their labels had them meet at a like a Pearl Jam concert I got this story from Chantel but interesting that she wants to work with Chantel because she liked Chantel's music yeah and I think there's like at that point she wants to make a rock record and that's what she makes or a pop rock record. And I think, you know, she hooks up with Chantel, I think because she just, you know, liked

her and wanted to work with her and you know, liked the kind of creative process and that songwriting process and it's just like a good collaborator. so yeah you know she got to for a second album she gets to choose who she works with and so she works with Chantal mostly as well as Rain and a couple other songwriters like the guy from Evanescence is involved. Is that Moody? Yes. Yes, Ben Moody. Ben Moody. Yeah and it's the I think that quintessential like teenage thing of like she just wanted to, you know, like there's no rhyme or reason as to why Chantel Kravetsky over, you know, whoever it's just it's what she's listening to. It's what she likes and she has this platform and she's earned some goodwill from the label.

Absolutely. And yeah, kudos to her for sticking up for herself. Glad you're giving her kudos because I just think the fact that on the first album that she had the ability to like Push back in the direction the label because you know these labels and in young artists particularly. This is a teenager Well, she's I don't know what she was how old was she when she was recording let go 17 yeah 15 when she signs the deal and then she's you know 16 17 because I think the first album comes out 2002 I think she's 18 because born in 84 Wow, and then just had being able to push it back and then finding the compromise with the matrix there and Just kudos to her for having that wherewithal to basically say no, this is not me

Like I want to be authentic. Yeah, and then by the time that second record comes around she's like well, you know that that's the old Avril, you know, I'm done with the tank top and tie I'm moving into a different direction and you know yeah kudos to her. Oh my goodness okay so again we're not reading the book here everybody so we're just gonna touch on a few things that I enjoyed reading about in the book but there's a band here I never liked okay so I do want to play a bit of this, I'll preface this by saying I never liked this band, but I'm going to play a little bit of this. I woke up, it was seven, waited till eleven just to figure out that no one would call. I think I've got a lot of friends, but I don't hear from them.

What's another night all alone? When you're spending every day on your own and here it goes I'm alone and the world is having more fun than me Alright, let's go to Quebec here. So we've been to Vancouver, Ajax, and Anthony. Those two cities are in Ontario of course. And I guess these guys are from just outside Montreal. Simple plan. Yeah. Il Bizarre, Dollar des Hormaux.

Yeah, the suburbs of Montreal. That's a good accent you got there. Merci. Did you go to French immersion? Adam did, I lived in Quebec for four years. I did my undergrad in Montreal. My daughter today arrives back from, she's going to McGill and she's living in Montreal. My alma mater, excellent, excellent.

What's she studying? A business, I know that she let me know that she needed some kind of 98% or something to get into this business program so I don't know the exact name. I wasn't in the business program. Not getting any 98s. Well you know I don't know what's going on there but we got lucky with Michelle who will be at TMLX19 on Thursday everybody come meet Michelle she's in town this week here. Actually her mom turns 50 tomorrow so she had she was coming back for that so I'm gonna grab her for TMLX 19. But all right. So I preface it by saying, I mean, I was

around for Simple Plan, but I was too old. I'm sure my ears just felt, it felt like kids music. It still does listening to that song. It sounds like a kid's music, but Simple Plan, big deal. Yeah. Look, this song, especially it, it it is very it is very youthful it is very even by pop punk standards pretty tame and Really draws back on the punk part of pop punk if you listen to it like another big single from that album I do anything that I will stand behind us as one of the best pop punk songs of all time Absolutely, so would mark hoppice of link 182. Yeah, I pulled the wrong jam. Yeah, and and I mean these guys have a long history in

band punk rock bands like, you know, really hardfast skate punk bands namely reset throughout the 90s before You know some band drama happens. They break up they couple them get together drama happens, they break up, a couple of them get back together. It was their high school band. And form, yeah, a new one, Simple Plan, because at that point, you know, they're getting a little more into kind of the poppy alt rock of the late 90s. You know, Chuck and Pierre, the drummer and singer of Simple Plan, getting kind of, getting, having a reunion at a Sugar Ray concert and

Hashing things out and starting a new band together after a after a fallout And and so they're you know They're they get a little more personal instead of political with their lyrics and they get a little more poppy with their music But these guys know punk rock, you know, they know ball Yeah and one thing for me like like as a music writer, like when I was writing an exclaim, particularly kind of near the end of my tenure there,

I really like to think about beyond the music of like the economic factors of being a musician and just how punishing it is. And so, you know, Pierre and Chuck from Simple Plan, when they were in reset, they were touring around Canada in a van with the Fat Rack guys, and they opened for Blink 182 when they were still Blink, and they made no money out of it

because their record label had no money and everyone was living on couches. And so this was their kind of pivot to actually make a living making music, and it worked. And it still, I think, honored the punk music they grew up listening to, like Bad Religion. There's a moment in the book where Chuck

listens to a bad religion song on the radio late at night and it just like jolts him out of bed and changes his brain and they go from being a grunge tribute band called Stone Garden to- Which you can put together how they came up with that. It's great, Stone Gossard and the Stone Garden. Yeah, to making pop punk like bad religion. And so I think that that, yeah, that like DNA

is still in Simple Plan. And I think they get like an unnecessarily bad rap just because they like did a hard pivot. Okay, now there's a name I'm gonna introduce to our little story here, because it's gonna tie in nicely with the next band out of Streetsville, which is a fancy way of saying Mississauga, okay?

How come we do that for, why do we do that for Streetsville? We don't do that for other neighborhoods. We would say Mississauga, but when it's Streetsville, we call it like it's its own city. It's just a neighborhood in Mississauga. Why does Streetsville get that extra special attention? I think because it is or what, like, it was its own, you know, pre-amalgamation was its own thing.

But when was that amalgamation before I was around? 2001 I guess. No, but that's, oh, the Toronto one is 98. But that's not a Mississauga thing. No, okay. I'm getting my Ontario geography wrong. What area did you grow up in? Where did you call home when you were growing up?

Sorry? Are you a Toronto guy? No, I'm an Ottawa guy. Oh yeah, that's right. Okay, so excuse that. Yeah, I'm I'm Toronto and I could tell you the six, you know, before Drake called it the six, I could tell you about anyway, I remember that amalgamation. It's one of my earliest political memories. Look, shout out to the six and a shout out of course to Scarborough, home of the Robbie. Okay, so we're still on Simple Plan. I'm just going to introduce a name because he's also an FOTM and a famous name in this country, George Strabalopoulos.

Like what role does he play in the rise of Simple Plan? So George had a radio show on the edge, Punkorama, and he would let people kind of come and give him a CD and say, okay, here's a new punk song, you gotta play it. And he will play it live on the air for the first time. And so someone came into the studio while he was recording punk arama gave him a CD of I do anything and he played it and he would he would turn the song off after 30 seconds and kind of clown the the listener or the gift giver on air sure and

he played I do anything and was like this song is a fucking smash and then the team at coalition music who were In talks with simple plan they had just they had just signed on to manage them I they were in the conversation called him and said do you think this song is any good like they heard it on the radio And George said yeah, this song's a fucking smash and so they signed them., a moment of this, somehow I can't put you in the past. I do anything. Okay, so without a doubt this is a much better song than I'm just a kid.

Yeah, also shout out to Quebec, I'm a big Quebec-ophile and French-Canadian, simple plan Pierre Bouvier, lead singer. And so he is the only member of the band who speaks English with no trace of a French-Canadian accent because his grandmother was Anglophone. And so, but his approach to songwriting is rooted in English being an additional language for him. And so the way that he constructs

songs, the way that he sings, I think that pop punk sneer is all part of his approach. Like it's all about the sound, which I think is what makes them a great pop punk band. So there's a cameo appearance by Mark Hoppus here, background vocals. Do you know this? Of course we talked about it in the book. Okay. I read it twice, but I forgot that for a moment. It's dense. There's a lot. I now will tell you on Thursday, which is two days from now, before TMLX 19, we're going to record an episode of Toast

and Bob Lillette from Indie88 and Rob Pruss, who was Keyboardist for Spoons, a Burlington band. We'll talk about another one in a minute. But they're going to drop by and we're going to kick out our favorite songs with cameo appearances in it. So a member, an artist you know who's not in the band makes a cameo appearance in the song and we're gonna kick out our favorite and this one would have been appropriate.

But also Arno Lanney produces this. Yes, yes of Our Lady Pea and others. But at that point, big Our Lady Peace fame. But Frozen Ghost would be like, Yes, it was his actual. His big band. And yeah, he definitely played a huge role in Our Lady Pea's. Yeah. All right. So there's some fun facts for you.

And Strombo played a role there. Yeah, we're back to Strombo because he's going to segue nicely because I'm going to kick out a jam from a band all three of us really like. In fact, this is my favorite band of all the bands in the book. This is my favorite probably. So here we go. Well, I tripped, I fell down naked While I scratched my knees, they bled So up my eyes need no more

In our game, there is no score Forgive me Father, I shut your bother Try your next day, try your next day Hop in your dark truck, reverse for good luck Ride over me, ride over me Take on the whole world, fight with the young girls Night tragedy, night tragedy Call me a jinx and come out for peace I Crying in me, tragedy call me a jingai, come on, fuck me, die

crying with me, crying with me Billy Talent from Streetsville, Mississauga, Ontario, Canada They're also my favorite of the nine bands that we featured Actually, when we signed the book deal, the first song I listened to should have been in Too Deep, but it wasn't, it was Try Honesty, it was this one. Just put it on and just that opening guitar is just pure dopamine to my veins. Okay, we're all in agreement. I'm disappointed to hear the critics were shitting all over Billy Talent. Come on.

Critics and my cabin mates at summer camp in 2004, I got horrifically bullied because my mom snuck a Billy Talent CD in my bag. Of all the bands to get bullied for, like that just blows my mind because this is a hard rockin' kick-ass band. I know and like just growing up and like thinking about it, it doesn't really make any sense but like also it would have been anything you know I really didn't fit the mold of the camper and that's fine but they picked Billy Talent and it's my super villain origin story and uh now I got this manifesto right? And that's how we got this book. Yeah, and Adam's forever grateful. I love Ben's vocals on this too.

I know, I think I read in the book where he feels his vocals, I love his vocals on these songs. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's a very unique voice and then just a commanding stage presence and then off the stage, like one of the most pleasant nice guys

you'll ever meet. Very amicable. I was at a... basically it was a like a in memory of Martin Streak so ten years after his passing there was an event at the the Opera House and I was recording from the lobby so people would come in and they would pay tribute to the late great Martin Streak and I finished the recording. It was like a three-hour recording. It's still in the feed if somebody wants to dig it up. It's freaking amazing actually but I'm packing up because I'm gonna bike it home and it's way out east or whatever and then I see Strombo shows up and he's got Ben

with him like and I had a little chat and he seemed like a very pleasant man who will one day make his Toronto Mike debut but we should kind of disclose. I call it I feel like it's a bit of a conflict of interest that never seems to be talked about but George of course racking up plays for the song on 102.1 the edge but Ben's working at CFNY and working pretty closely with Strombol. Yeah well Ben notoriously didn't talk about his band when he worked there because he didn't want to come off as a corny or like an opportunist. Yeah yeah yeah he didn't want to just be like a corny or like an opportunist. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He didn't want to just be like, you know, here's my CD. Here's my CD. Playing the hell out of the songs like for his buddy, Ben, it's good music. I'm not saying

that it's because it was just because it was his buddy, Ben. But I mean, that fact, that is a, that is an interesting conflict. Well, and I think that's something that any music broadcaster or critic is going to get is going to stumble upon where like their friends make good music I think it's pretty easy to separate you know music by good friends and good music by friends yeah right and this is good music here but shadow to Huxley Workman who's been over here and he sat down and I played for him anger is beauty which is a Huxley Workman song I quite

like and he talked about how he knew he was cooked. He knew he was fucked when he heard on 102.1 The Edge, a new song by a band out of Streetsville, Ontario here, named Billy Talent and Try Honesty, which we just listened to. And he said, okay, I'm, I'm, he felt he was blown out of the water by how hard that song, how heavy that song was that's Hawksley's opinion I mean, yeah the People have tried to fact-check us because we talk about how try honesty was one of the first songs if not the first song That puts screaming on the radio. I copied that quote. I'll read it because I actually did want to bring it up because You had the quote was I think strong bull has the quote

Nobody was getting that heavy on the radio, was the quote. And I don't know, because I mean, the offspring, I mean, there's other songs, I think, but what would you say? You were gonna say something about that. Do you think that's true? I mean, by that point, new metal's a huge thing, right? So Slipknot's got like a number one or number two album. Wade & The Lead was fucking heavy.

But was that on mainstream rock radio? Not really. No, you know, like, and Korn and System of a Down, like these were getting play on MTV and these were big, big, big bands. System of a Down is a good one. Korn's heavy, Korn still doesn't really scream, you know. There's, Jonathan Davis is predominantly singing,

same with System of a Down. And on mainstream radio, like that was more MTV stuff or Fuse TV, you know, or much loud and stuff like that. On the radio, yeah, until Billy Talent came along with Try Honesty, like that was, that was pretty much as heavy as a guess. We can split hairs, we can go, yeah, you know, there might be, but definitely at the very least one of the heaviest things on mainstream radio at the time. And definitely a tide shift for sure.

Do you guys know Sky Wallace? Yes, yes I do. So she was here like a week ago. She has a new single. She's going through this like pregnant ice tea era. It's kind of an interesting thing she's going through because she's very pregnant, but very pregnant. That's a weird way to say it.

But we were, okay, we were talking, what was that thread from, oh yeah, I played for her, Tracy Bonham's Mother Mother, okay, which was played all the time on, I heard it all the time on Edge 102 back in like the mid-90s or whatever. Mother Mother is the name of the song and the big refingles, everything's fine,

but Tracy's screaming the fuck out of that song I'm just saying there's a song with some yelling in it that got a lot of airplay But I guess the the spirit of something that heavy played that often on mainstream Media try honesty may have helped open the doors for people like Alexis on fire Yeah, and also I mean strongbo knows you gotta go a little hyperbolic if you want to get people talking. Yeah Yeah, I mean this was the premise of Billy talent is knows, you gotta go a little hyperbolic if you wanna get people talking. Yeah, yeah. And I mean, this was, the premise of Billy Talent is really, you know, the kind of wave of post-hardcore stuff

of the late 90s. Fugazi refused at the drive-in. This was that, but just a little more polished, a little more accessible to be on the radio, to be on mainstream platforms. And that's exactly what, like you listen to Tryon to see, that's exactly what it is. Right, and then The X and River Below, and I mean there's so many of these songs have, they have melody, you know, they're kind of groove to them, but they're still heavy heavy mm-hmm and and I mean Ben's voice separates the band from

from anything that you would anything else really in the mainstream because that voice is is a is a snarl you know it's it's got shades of sex pistols or something like that but also Ian Dassa the guitarist and we got a shout him out he came to our launch party at the Rivoli a couple of weeks ago. He was our special guest, so yeah. That's amazing. Yeah, and he hung out and we blew it.

So in the book, there are photos. There's an eight page photo section. And we'd blown up some of the photos, just his little display in the Rivoli. It might still be there. And he was like, he was leading a museum tour and pointing out all the different things in the jam space to people who were walking by.

But anyway, I bring up Ian, because his guitar sound as well, I mean, he's combining the rhythm and the lead. There's only one guitarist in Billy Talent and it's always shocking to think about. And I think that really adds to the sound as well. Without a doubt here. Now they were Pez before they were Billy Talent.

Yeah, for several years and they put an album out and then, yeah, got served a cease and desist from another band in the U.S. called Pez that owned the trademark to that name. I think the cease and desist would come from who owns Pez. Well, different spelling. Yeah, you got to add a letter, take a letter. Plus trademark law, different categories of products or services. So when they call themselves Billy Talent

after the Hardcore Logo basis, they took an L away. I noticed that, okay, so I wanted to talk, yeah, Hardcore Logo, great fucking movie too, Hugh Dillon. That's a great movie, Hardcore Logo. I think that's fantastic. And yeah, they took away an L. Billy Talent's a character in Keith Renny Callum? Callum Keith Renny.

In a way. Yeah, close. Wow. Callum Keith Renny. Get away. Yeah, close. Wow, I was so fricking close there. Wow, one point I wanna make about Billy Talon before I shout out a couple of partners and then wrap up a bit here. But I just want to shout out Germany. Germans love David Hasselhoff

and Germans love Billy Talon. It's wild how massive Billy Talent is in Germany. Yeah, we asked them point-blank just like are you bigger in Canada or are you bigger in Germany? Because we know how big they are in Canada. They're huge. They're playing, you know, summer festivals. Yeah, summer festival season. There's just crowds as far as the eyes can see. Ben, without a doubt, he said Germany, way bigger in Germany. That's wild.

There's massive shows that they're playing in there. Yeah. I was at Downsview Park for an Edge Fest where the closer was Billy Talent. And I don't know how many people were there, but it looked like 40,000 people were there, I don't know. And they're bigger in Germany, which I think will be a mind blow for some people. Yeah. And that story is told in quite some detail in the book. And, you know, another point of pride.

And I think that's the probably the only time, the first time that that story has been really told in full. We found their German label and tour reps and we hunted them down, got them on a Zoom call and we heard the full story. And that's all in In 2 Deep. On that note, I bet you only because I do a much smaller scale, but I often I'll talk to somebody and they'll mention somebody and then I'll kind of

put in the work to track that person down to either corroborate the story or they'll tell it in great detail and they'll introduce a new part of the story and then you'll go find that person and get them on to kind of confirm. Like it's thrilling, like I get this adrenaline rush, like it's so exciting. I can, living precariously through you two gentlemen, I think writing this book and connecting

these dots and stuff, that must've been fun. That's exactly what it felt like. It was exciting to come across a new, you know, thing that just like opened the store. It gave, gave us so much more story to tell. And then we would, you know, maybe have through one interview, we would have three or four or five more people to get in touch with and then build the story around that. It's like the wire when Lester Freeman has the pictures on the wall and how all the pieces matter.

It's exactly the same thing. Yeah, the hardest part was stopping, was saying, okay, we can't talk to the concert promoter in Munich, we just can't do that. We gotta move on, we gotta write another chapter. Yeah, and by the time, we did almost all of those kind of interviews with people in the bands, camps, and their friends and former managers,

label people and whatnot, before we actually spoke to the artists in most cases. So by the time we spoke to them, we knew the story cover to cover, and it was filling in with details and their own memories and stuff like that. So, and I think some of them were kind of surprised at how much we already knew, which I think as a researcher- Are they surprised by how passionate you are about the minutia of this story? I'd say so. We got an email from Cone, the bassist of Sum 41. He was like, when he read the chapter, Sum 41 chapter of the book, and he said,

it was surprising to him that it's worthy of this type of attention. But he's like, you know, but it's cool. He's very complimentary toward us. And yeah, it was just, when he was living it, he didn't realize that people would care this much. Yeah, a lot of humility with these artists too, which was a big through line.

Well, they're Canadian. Exactly. Yeah, and people spoke of that, you know, other people in those camps that we talked to. If I look at the list, I believe all of these artists still live in Canada. Fifi Dobson at least was in Nashville at one point. Some of the, Derek is in California.

Oh, it's Vegas. Yes, I believe he's now in Vegas. So is this singer of Silverstein. About a year ago, he moved to Vegas. Like we interviewed, he had just moved and we interviewed him, so maybe two years ago. Some of the Simple Plan guys are in California, but Cone is in Toronto, Billy Talent, mostly Toronto.

Yeah, they're all in Toronto Alexis wades in Montreal now apparently yeah, they're kind of he was on CF and why for a while as a DJ yeah But yeah, I think some of you know they come and go but they're they're all It's hard in Canada unfortunately to stay here and to make a living making art. They're just more opportunity in the states. And I hate it. I hate that that's true. And I would love to hope that we can use this kind of cultural moment we're having to invest in Canadian arts and culture.

You know, I agree 100 percent. And you're right. Like, there are artists like, I don't know, like Joni Mitchell and Neil Young. And we can go back where they basically they had to go to the states. But then you have artists like Anne Marie who lives here and you the guess who guys live here Randy lives here and burden lives here And so there are examples of like big global bands that we've created where they've decided to stay put But you know Shania didn't stay here and I don't know where which which of Celine's houses she's living in now But I don't know if she stayed's houses she's living in now, but I don't know if she's

stayed there. By the way, Celine Dion's personal entertainment lawyer for years and years and years is a guy named Paul Farberman who will be at TMLX 19 on Thursday because he now manages Snow, so it's more connections for you right there here. Okay, so I want to say hello to Al Grego who will also be TMLX19, because Al hosts a wonderful podcast from Monaris called Yes We Are Open. He went to Regina, Saskatchewan. I noticed there's no bands from Regina on your list here.

We're missing a bunch of provinces actually, but we'll get to that in a minute. No East Coast either. Yeah, right. Okay, so you got a couple of BC, you got one Quebec, and everything else is Ontario. Yeah, six of nine, okay. So Al went to Regina to get inspiring stories from small business owners for Yes We Are

Open. Season eight just dropped. I urge you to subscribe and listen, and while you're doing that, subscribe to Building Toronto's Skyline from Nick Ienis, where we have very interesting conversations. We're going to record a couple of new episodes on Friday morning. Thank you to Nick Ienies and Fusion Corp for fueling the real talk on Toronto Mic. And last but not least, before I kick out this banger, I urge you to go to recyclemyelectronics.ca if you have any old cables, old devices, old, you know,

electronics. Don't throw that in the garbage because the chemicals end up in our landfill. Go to recyclemyelectronics.ca, put in your poster code and find out where you can drop that off to be properly recycled. The shadows discourse buried in my neck The shadows take lives without mercy, without hate The streets are in distress We are the dead ones, we are the ones gone We are the dead ones, we are the ones gone We are the dead ones, we are the ones gone We are the dead ones, we are the ones gone We are the dead ones, we are the ones gone We are the dead ones, we are the ones gone

We are the dead ones, we are the ones gone We are the dead ones, we are the ones gone We are the dead ones, we are the ones gone We are the dead ones, we are the ones gone We are the dead ones, we are the ones gone We are the dead ones, we are the ones gone We are the dead ones, we are the ones gone We are the dead ones, we are the ones gone Seems endless Underneath the salvation sign We are the dead ones

We are the wise guys We are the papers that will break our self-esteem Because of hate City, the city is looted By ghosts, ghosts From broken homes, homes This could be anywhere in the world, but it's actually St. Catharines, Ontario. Alexis on fire. Someone at the book launch party at the Rivoli that we mentioned, it was last weekend, we had live band karaoke and someone did this song and I'm so, we were we were signing books at the time

and I'm so sad that I missed it because I really want to, apparently he killed it. Both parts? Both parts. Yeah that's tough. And apparently he killed it. I asked and they were like this guy must have been like in a band or something because like he knew what he was doing and he could handle himself. Yeah we saw him do a bit of it at soundcheck because I think he was the sound guy and so he like went up a little bit but yeah apparently with him going whole hog was amazing and so sad we missed it. One of the first times a song must have been done in karaoke yeah live band karaoke. But we all do we maybe

I should make assumptions I think this is the best Alexis on fire song. This is certainly my favorite like this is the one that introduced me to them. I mean, Adam and I like we're two years apart and we grew up in a time where I think you can tell someone's age to the year based on which Alexis album is their big one. Cause for me, I'm born in 93, this is my big one. Yeah, and mine was the one from,

this album was Crisis from 2006. My big album was Watch Out from 2004 and I'm two years older than you. So there you go. I mean if we're to draw a line between like best versus favorite, I could get behind this being the best Alexa song because it's just like it's got that thing you know that makes it a quote-unquote hit. I have my own favorites but yeah this song is definitely have that kind of X factor to it. Accidents probably up there for me. How big did Alexis On Fire get beyond the Great White North there? So in a similar case is Billy

Talent not that big in America but the world is a big wide place and they got bigger in places like Australia and the UK and Europe particularly I think in Australia and UK you know like when they're when they play now they play massive crowds in the UK and in Australia so yeah they got they got big there whereas you know others will get big and you know Silverstein for, was who we'll get to in a bit was a big band in America. I think this is the first time I went out of order. Yeah. And I know I went out of order and I didn't, I kind of meant to only because

this is my blind spot. So let's speak for a moment. So, so Silverstein's from Burlington, Ontario. Yeah. To me, that's Rainbow Buttmonkeys in the spoons, okay? We have a third, okay. How did I miss Silverstein? Like was I just too old and it wasn't my scene? I guess that happens to a lot of people. You know, it's funny because of the nine bands that we profiled, Silverstein I didn't listen to until we were researching the book.

Adam was the one who said they need their own chapter. So they're a very big, like if you look at their Spotify monthly listeners, which is an imperfect metric to judge a band size, but it's what we have, right? They're really big, you know? And you might not think it. I mean, I read the book,

but I couldn't have named a Silverstein song. Like I couldn't have named one. So they're a band that got really big through the underground. Like they weren't on much music. They weren't on the radio for whatever reason. They signed to an American hardcore label, Victory Records, that was big as hardcore gets at the time. And so they through touring like crazy, through being on Warped Tour, through all these kind of underground and MySpace,

YouTube, all these channels, they got really huge over the last 10, 20 years. I think that's exactly how you create a blind spot for me, is if, and I'm thinking of at this era, at this era, if you're not on much music and you're not on 102.1 The Edge, I might not hear you. There were many people who wouldn't, like they weren't in the places,

if you weren't into emo, screamo, hardcore music, you would have had to go looking for them. So if you weren't into that, you probably wouldn't have found them. But there were a lot of teenagers who were into that, like me, and they found them that way. And so they got this huge following just out of that. Silverstein had no pop crossover you know Alexis had Dallas Green, Ben would sing, Ben's, Ian's guitar lines are very melodic.

Silverstein doesn't really have that sense of melody which is why they're they're huge in American hardcore but they did not cross over the way that every other artist did. Good point about these crossover from Alexis on fire because Dallas Good had Savior Scissors. I think that was the name of the song, but it was like Dallas Green. Who did that come? Dallas Green? Oh, the late, okay.

Yeah. I'm making this. Okay. Dallas Green, who he's living in Nashville still, right? Dallas Green was here. Yeah. Did we get him back and Lee Miller from Much Music? Yeah.

I'm not sure where he is actually. Cause Lee Miller had a store in Toronto at some point. It was like a pandemic, as emerging from lockdown ventures. Yes as far as I knew Dallas is in yeah. Okay. Well Dallas could be anywhere in the world. We'll just say that Thank you. That's why I've got a award-winning podcast which hasn't won an award yet. But okay, so Put so where was I going? Oh, yes, so Dallas green Completely had like I would say, you know, parents taking their kids to soccer games in the minivan are listening to Savior's Scissors. Like,

and that great song, I love that song he did with Gord Downie. Sleeping Sickness. I thought that was an amazing song. Big Gord Downie head over here. But I guess Silverstein didn't have a similar, you know, crossover thing that would draw you in. Yeah. I mean, to counter what you said, they definitely have the melodies and kind of like a pop punk side to them. But they also, they come from emo and metal and hardcore and the convergence of all those things that were happening at the time.

So they really appealed to that underground kind of warp tour crowd. But this does beg the question, when you two were sketching out this book and stuff, was there an artist one of you felt belonged, the other one just vetoed? So obviously it sounds to me like, Adam, you said Silverstein belongs,

and of course there was a quickly, Matt said, okay, I can buy into let let's do it But was there any artists where you guys simply couldn't come to terms on that? I don't think so. I don't think so our collaborative partnership was like way more seamless than I think anyone ever really could have predicted Yeah, yeah, it was good. And yeah, I don't think there were Any there wasn't anything like that and the Silverstein it was a really just look at the numbers You know like they were a major band and the numbers don't lie like they're just they weren't the news recently because there was the airplane crash and I think it was in California, but

Silverstein kind of was mentioned in that news report. Yeah, cuz it was their agent their booking agent who passed away. Mm-hmm I think Billy Talents as well. There was another band from the book. I remember it was Silverstein and one other Yeah, the one thing Adam and I couldn't agree on for the book that we just had to leave was the chapter titles That was the one thing where we just were we just had different visions and we decided we're just gonna name them over the visions My who is right? I mean mine was a little more of that like academic style. Like you start with like a song title or a lyric and then it'd be like, I don't know, smashed into pieces like how Silverstein broke the mold or whatever.

Yeah, a little more creative and a little more, yeah, academic essay title style. Which is my background. And we just, yeah, we ended up just going, playing it pretty straight. Did you think that was too cool for school? I generally prefer simplicity and just simple, like to me it was like chapter one, God,

like that's fine for me. And we also were like, we have spent so much time on this and we're like at deadline of draft two or whatever. We do not have the energy to like get the perfect chapter titles at this point So I think that had a lot to do finding nine that fit the formula that were all really good was really hard Especially with how exhausted we were at that point, so we just dropped it But yeah, but anyway as far as disagreements go I think everything is very cut and dry Yes

And we talked earlier about that excitement that adrenaline rush when you make contact with somebody to corroborate a story like I've Experienced this many times when there's a person I need to talk to who was there for this to connect that and they decline my Request like like so did you have that where somebody you really really wanted to talk to simply wasn't gonna talk to you I mean Derek Wibbly was a non-starter. We, you know, through management, it was, they never returned our messages. We only got to talk with Cone and with Steve, the former drummer of Sum 41,

through my good friend Menno from Colorado. Who was here like last, well, him and Brendan Canning did this event at the Garrison, hip covers, tragically hip covers for the, for the food bank. Yeah. It was like a bookie tribute as well for Dave Bookman. And yeah. So canning and Menno came over back to back to talk about that event and more,

but yeah, Menno. Yeah. So he, yeah. And so Colorado has toured with some 41. And so when I was telling him at an exclaim party a couple of years ago, we're writing this book and he said, well, you know, I'm buddies with cone. And so he hooked us up. We do also have a broken socials and connection, but not Brendan canning.

Kevin Drew really helped us out. Um, his brother Cameron drew works in the publishing industry and he was the one who told us to go with how to query house of an Nancy press, which we did. And then they bit and publish the book. And so, uh, yeah, anyway, some, some Toronto indie rock. press which we did and then they bit and published the book and so yeah anyway some some Toronto indie rock I'm getting some secondhand excitement from you know you mentioned so there's two bands I'm gonna throw at you one is the Salads do you guys remember the Salads yes Big Shiny Tunes 8 okay yeah loose I've done a couple of deep dives on Big Sh- Mark Teo wrote a book on Big Shiny Tunes

so I've had him on to talk to the first music writers I met when I just started at exclaim we went to Quebec City together in 2013 great guy Do you know the legend that is Cam Gordon does this name mean? No, no, we can't don't worry I'll fix it in post cam. I'll edit that out. It won't be embarrassing for you. Just kidding I don't know anything in post the Sal I feel like the salad The salads may have been like our gob I feel like I don't know what happened to the salads, but they were played so often on 102.1 the edge I don't think get loose was one they had a couple of big jams

But anyway, I'm just throwing it out there for me and brought up the salads and a bit of a blank spot for me And again don't edit that one out either. It's alright. Look I can't be the only one on this damn podcast with so many blind spots. Include one blind spot I have is Grade, okay? Now, what is Grade? Like, okay, only they're in the context of Silverstein. I feel like this is an Adam question. But I took a note on the word Grade.

Does Grade mean anything to you regarding Burlington Silverstein? If not, I'm gonna just chat up about Fifi. I mean, they were the band that, you know, the kind of big brother band of Silverstein, the band that set the mold that Silverstein wanted to be. And they set their sights like if we can be, if we can have the career that grade has had and to make music like grade will be considered successful. And then of course,

they went far beyond that in terms of the reach and the success that they had. But yeah, Silverstein as a Burlington band, like Grade were a few years older than them and they're like, we want to be like Grade because they are this like highly respected hardcore band from Burlington signed to one of our favorite labels Victory Records. And we want to just do exactly that. And I mean, for Silverstein's case, like they did pretty much exactly that but then you know they just took the ball and ran with it so much further. What's your favorite Silverstein song so later I can go listen to it? Mine is smashed into pieces. Mine too. It's okay that's yeah it feels like an easy answer but I think it's the correct

answer. Quick word on Scarborough, Home of the Robbie, Fifi Dobson, Fifi Dobson. I saw at an edge fest once at Molson Park in Barry. I remember Bye Bye Boyfriend was a big, was a big song in 102.1 at the time. So, but Fifi, Fifi made the cut and glad she made the cut. And I wonder if you could speak maybe about the role of Prozac. Yeah, that was a fun one. And we actually got to talk with Jay Levine, one of the members of Prozac. They were a philosopher king, right guys who did the side project, which I remember you guys might remember the cartoon characters.

Simon and Milo. Bad disease was one. And it sucks to be you. Yeah. What a wild time to be alive, but what role does Prozac play in the development of Young Fifi Dotson? So one day Prozac was in their studio just messing around trying to make a song for a Disney Channel original movie and then they hear from the studio over this this young woman singing at the top of her lungs and just crushing it and And so they went over, they knock on the door to the studio, they say, hey, who are you? We're recording a song, you wanna do some backup vocals.

And so Fifi Dobson did backup, was backup vocals for a Prozac song. And so then that's how they met and that was the most fun Fifi had had. Fifi had a similar experience to Avril where she was being told to sound a certain way because she was a young girl, not just a young girl, but a young black girl and said,

okay, you can only do pop and R&B. And she grew up listening to like Silver Chair was one of her big artists growing up. Tomorrow. Exactly. She was big into the sex pistols as well. Yeah, yeah. And so she linked up with Prozac and

When she was decided not to go with the record label that was funding the session that got her in that studio that Prozac overheard she then linked up with Prozac and the rest is history I Feel like Canadian rock is more open to people of color Canadian rock is more open to people of color. This is a wild take only based on the fact that they're Billy Talent, Sum 41, we have Phoebe Dobson. We have Julian Taylor.

He's been over wonderful. And also I'm thinking Danny Graves from The Watchmen is a person of color. Like, I mean, these are all fantastic. We don't really have the same preconceived notion that your rock band is white. I say that living color, I just saw there was the anniversary of when Vernon Reed came on Toronto Mic'd and we talked about it and there's a great rock band and there are

people of color in that band. But it just feels like Canada, we might be because of how multicultural we are as a mosaic, we might might be easier for a person of color to be in rock and roll here. Well and there is obviously unfortunately a lot of institutionalized racism in Canada but I have some friends who they're Canadian and they moved to the States rock and roll here. Well, and there is obviously, unfortunately, a lot of institutionalized racism in Canada. But I have some friends who they're Canadian and they moved to the States recently and they live in Boston and they were just talking about how just racialized the neighborhoods are in a way that like it is just different than living in Canada. We have our problems here, but it is just way worse in the States and way more segregated

in just every possible, conceivable way. I mean, as two white guys, I don't think we can speak necessarily to, the lived experiences of these people and whether, what kind of challenges they faced or any sort of comments they got or anything like that. But it did, we did notice, especially early on

when we were talking about the type of bands that would be in this book, that several of them were people of color, particularly in a scene, that punk rock, hardcore scene, very white. And you got Ian Dassault, Dave Brown Sound, and Fifi Dobson as major parts of the book who were people of color existing in this very white scene. And so, yeah, it led me to wonder, because of the format of the book, we didn't get to explore it as much as we maybe would have liked,

but it made me curious whether that visibility on seeing a person of color just rocking out in a hardcore or in a punk band on much music uh... would have been influential to you know young people of color is saying like i yeah i i did speak to uh... the spankle me at the altar uh... three young women of color who are in a pop-on ban now and he did that they definitely had that experience of flake uh... seeing people of color in this scene

and being like I could do this now. And when they're not Canadian but you know especially in Canada I think with those major artists I wonder if there were you know kind of further reaching impacts of that visibility. But even when like Willow Smith and SZA and Olivia Rodrigo made pop punk influenced songs, they all cited Fifi Dobson. These are major American pop artists. And I loved your book for bringing home the Prozac. Fun fact, too, like that.

I'm there for the Prozac right there. Awesome. OK, so we're wrapping up here. I will just say that I was lucky enough to have a visit from Josh Ramsey from Marianas Trench who came over and we had a great chat. And of course, all my annoying questions are about call me maybe. Like I said, you know, but Marianas Trench also from Vancouver, right? There's a Vancouver band. Maybe speak to the like, does Nickelback play a role in the origin story of Marianas Trench? Yes so Nick well Marianas Trench were the second artist to sign to 604 Records. Can I guess the first and I did read that maybe it was it Default? Close.

No close. The other one that sounds like Theory of a Deadman? That's it. They're so similar right? Yeah. Like what was up with that they were looking for like cover bands almost But yeah, well, I mean good jam and and people called them theory of a Nickelback Yeah, I mean that was again a whole movement where a bunch, you know a bunch of artists that are similar sounding get big because that's what people were on for right now, but also because You know Chad Kroeger was involved in

In default and in theory of a Dead Man, you know, like helping to lift them once Nickelback blew up and he had, you know, had the ability to kind of go to bat for some other artists that he liked. He would produce demos and help fund sessions for these artists and that's how, you know, linking up with his lawyer, Jonathan Simkin, that's how they ended up with 604 Records and, you know, the first with his lawyer, Jonathan Simkin, that's how they ended up with 604 Records. And you know, the first band they signed is Three of a Dead Man, which is very predictable.

But the next one, Chad, you know, and Jonathan said like, Chad didn't really get it. He didn't really get Marianas Trench, but Jonathan, the other co-founder of 604 Records, was like, nah, just trust me. Marianas Trench is manager to this day. Yep. Yeah.

Amazing. Goodness gracious. And I will say that as I look at the, where these people are from, we touched on this earlier, but you got a couple from British Columbia and you have one from Quebec. But other than Phoebe Dobson, who's actually from Scarborough, which is of course in the great city of Toronto. It seems like these artists are coming out of like 905 and even maybe, I don't know if it's 613, what is Nappany?

But basically you got Ajax, Nappany, Mississauga, Burlington, and St. Catharines. Only one of the bands you covered is actually from Toronto proper, which is an interesting observation. Yeah, like a lot of suburbs and I think that was the case, like Matt has spoken about this a lot, with a lot of these, of this type of music, there were different things happening in the suburbs than there were in like downtown city centers and I think it it also led to a particular type of of attitude of just like kids with nothing else to do for fun but but make music in their basements and that's the origin story for a lot of these artists. And suburbs lead to more hybridized music scenes where the punk kids and the you know hip-hop kids and the metal kids can't go to different venues

because they don't exist and there aren't enough of them. So we're unlike a city like Toronto, we're kind of any, I think, big American suburb. And so they're all hanging out and that's where it gets to a band like Sum 41 because they were exposed to all that stuff. Because who else in Ajax was, you know, if one band liked hip hop in Ajax, then everyone heard them. And that's how you get Il Scarlett. Yeah, absolutely. Shout out to Il Scarlett. I mean, Nothing Special is a huge song for me.

And that's why we did the sidebars. And Heaters too. There was a bunch of big jams from Il... I thought they would be... They were people comparing them to Sublime, obviously, like, oh yeah. But I thought they'd be bigger. Yeah, I mean, us too. And that's why we have all the sidebars

throughout the book was those were the artists that were on Much Music in equal measure to some 41 and Simple Plan, but didn't take off outside of Canada for whatever reason. Yeah, there's like 20 something sidebars that we subtitled further listening. Just the ones that got, you know, maybe got a brief stint on a major label deal

or, you know, were big in their own, big in the underground scene but didn't get to the point of a Silverstein, for example. The Comeback Kid is a really big hardcore band, very influential. But you know. And like fucked up too, huge band. I mean, big for twice. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Yeah, but yeah, but didn't quite hit the size of the nine artists we featured in chat. Propagandi. Yeah, oh, huge, yes. In Too Deep, when Canadian punks took over the world, Adam Feibel and Matt Bobkin, I loved this chat. Thank you so much. Yeah, so did we.

This was so much fun. Don't leave without your beer. That was no joke. I just got to grab it from around the corner. And then we'll take a photo by Toronto Tree. Most recent episode of Toronto Mike featured Toronto Tree, but Toronto Tree can't talk. So we got a professor to speak on Toronto Tree's behalf. You'll have to hear that one to believe it. Oh, that's cool. I see the vision. Yeah, you got it. Yeah.

I've seen the photo. I believe it. Yeah. Real deal. And that brings us to the end of our 1,718th show. Go to torontomike.com for all your Toronto Mike needs. Much love to all who made this possible. Again, that's Great Lakes Brewery. They're hosting us Thursday.

Get there. Six to nine. Everyone's invited. No ticket required. You can eat Palma pasta and drink Great Lakes beer Monaris much love to you for your support Toronto Maple Leafs baseball Snow's gonna be there. He's an ambassador for Toronto Maple Leafs baseball recycle my electronics.ca building Toronto skyline and Ridley funeral home see you tomorrow when my guest is blue rodeo

guitarist Colin Cripps. He's in the basement. He wasn't in this book. We'll talk to you all then.