Trading Secrets - 2: Inside the Influencer Industry: Top CEO Tells All

Episode Date: May 24, 2021

We are cracking into the vault on the Influencer industry with the Joe Gagliese, CEO and Co-Founder of one the largest Influencer marketing companies in the world. How much do influencers actually make, who makes the most and what are their strategies behind it, the future of the influencer industry and much more.  Joe spills the tea of all things money and strategy to an industry that is too often overlooked and not discussed, Social Media Influencers. Produced by Dear Media.

The following podcast is a Dear Media production. Welcome back to another episode of Trading Secrets. Today we are opening the bell and discussing all things influencer marketing and just the insane wild, wild west of a world that lives behind influencers and the monetization of their social media presence, with none other than the co-founder and CEO of Viral Nation, Joe Galeezze. Viral Nation is the world's largest influencer talent agency,

and they secure brand and social media endorsements for all different influencers, A to Z, Micro to A-List celebrities. Now, in our first episode, we talked with Dean Ungler, who discloses some of the social media deals he's done, the best ones, the worst ones, the most lucrative, and he even talked about the most embarrassing. But one takeaway from that podcast is how the social media influencing space

dug him out of a whole lot of debt he couldn't have ever imagined getting out of. Now, today we're taking the conversation to the next level. But we're talking all things. We're talking how to become an influencer, what people should know about the future of social media, and some of the biggest and wildest things Joe has ever seen.

We talk about what people are paid, what the contracts look like, how the amounts are actually determined. And Joe even takes a stab at how much I make on an annual basis. And listen, we're getting comfortable with talking about money. So I give you the answer. Joe tells us the percentage of kids right now that want to be influencers when they grow up. He talks about how the industry has become so important for everyone,

whether you have one follower or you have millions for kids growing up. Even he talks about how politicians today can't be politicians without. a social media presence. Now, what type of social media presence and what type of social media influencers do you think did best in 2020? Joe tells us. And who do you think makes more money? The crazy, R-rated, wild, badass personalities? Or the cute G-rated personalities? Joe breaks that down. We also talk about how COVID absolutely canapulted the space into a world Joe always saw coming and he never sees it going anywhere but up, which is interesting, right? Because I have friends and family that are like, enjoy it now, it'll be gone tomorrow.

From signing the first influencer ever in the space to doing up to a $25 million influencing deal, Joe breaks it all down. He talks about how much people will even pay to get a blue checkmark, my freaking God. But before I open up the bell with Joe, here are some eye-opening facts. about the space that you should know. Now, this research was completed by Statista marketing. But here's some interesting facts. In 2016, the social media market was a $1.6 billion industry.

Just five years later, it has surpassed $13 billion, and it is now estimated to be a $13.8 billion industry in 2021. The average spending on a campaign for influencers with more than 500,000 followers is $39,577. Now, the top five factors that go in to a brand wanting to work with an influencer, number one is the quality of their content. Number two is their target audience with the demographic. Number three is the engagement rate.

Number four is how the budget aligns with their rates. And number five is the brand organically aligned with the influencer. What you didn't hear there was followers. actual total amount of followers and follower account was number seven on the list for what brands look for when working with an influencer. But listen, enough of the stats. Let's get to the opening bell with the guy who was an early adopter to the space and has been in the space longer than I even knew what Instagram was, the CEO of Viral Nation and co-founder

Joe Galejaze. Joe, thank you so much for joining us. So Joe and I had a, uh, just a quick call before we met, did a little introductory call and him and I just got shooting the shit so much on influencer marketing. I literally in the middle of the conversation, to be like, Joe, we need to stop right now. We need to put something on the books. Need to get like a conversation going because the detail that we're talking about is, uh, is so in depth and so much that people should know, don't know. And you know what? It's the future of what we're doing and how marketing is going to look like. So from your education at Ryerson to now the CEO of one of the world's

largest social media influencing companies, what did that path look like and what led you to creating Viral Nation? Yeah, so sorry to burst your bubble, but I actually didn't finish school. Oh. Viral Nation took off in the tail end of me finishing at Ryerson University in Toronto, but they actually gave me, I believe, a seven-year extension on the degree if I ever want to come back and give it a final uh final walk through what's super funny about that is i just actually accepted a position as entrepreneur and residence at university of toronto so i'm part of the faculty there now and i go to my dad who's an old school italian guy and i'm like well i didn't graduate from school because he still calls me a high school graduate but now i teach at a school so i guess that that's got to be

something i've been a serial entrepreneur since i can remember selling paintballs when i was 14 years old to, you know, selling DVDs out of the back of my truck, that whole classic serial entrepreneur story. And then I launched a liquidation company here in Canada that got some traction, but it was a really dirty job. And I was always kind of had this dream to create something that didn't have a cap, that didn't have a ceiling on it. That's something that I could grow, that could become a platform to influence the world. So when social media started to take off, I called it about seven and a half years ago, I went to an HL agent who helped me. and who's a family friend, and I said, hey, man,

would you give me a shot to sell your NHL player's endorsement deals for their social only? And he was like, well, sure. Like, to them at that time, that wasn't a thing. And I built a calculation to value how much their post cost. And, you know, very, very, you know, I was 22 at the time, 23 at the time. So I was just, you know, a young scrappy guy. And the reality I didn't recognize that kind of set me into the influence

world was when I went to an NHL player who was making $6, $7, $8 a year, and I said, hey, I got this really great opportunity for you to post on YouTube for $10,000. It wasn't getting them out of bet, right? Sure, sure. So instead of kind of stopping there, what I said was, well, these influencers on Vine and Instagram and YouTube at the time have these huge audience and they're not monetizing them and quite frankly are worth more than the athlete and celebrity on social today, why don't I go and start trying to represent those guys. So I did. And that was the first big turning

point for me as an entrepreneur was, I was one of the first guys in the world to start representing influencers like you would an athlete or a celebrity. I actually used the NHL contract and I modified it for my first, you know, call it 20 influencers. They were on like five year lockups and, you know, I was just doing my thing. You miss one section where it says NHL and you get a little kid from Vine like, what the fuck am I in the show now? You know what? I drove to sign my first influencer, and quite frankly, he signed the contract so fast that he couldn't have read the cover page on it. So, like, he really did it matter at that time. Fast forward, he's actually on our talent team today, our first ever influencer.

Who was the first NHL player that you got? Sam Bennett, Calgary Filames, good guy. He was a wonderful guy to work with, Marner, on the leaves, the agents Darren Farris. He worked, used to be at Orr Group. Anyway, so we became the talent guys, and I remember Vanity Fair in 2014 saying, you know, this is the CAA of the future and, you know, cool stuff because when you tap into an industry that doesn't exist yet, what ends up happening is big brands, prerequisites go away. So you look like the big guy in the room because there's no one bigger standing near you, right? So we really leverage those opportunities. And then what we found was all of these marketing agencies in the U.S. started contacting us to put influencers on their.

campaigns. And we said, why don't we just do the campaigns ourselves? And that was another big turning point for me in my career. So we started selling influencer campaigns. Then we got to this point where people started to say things like influencer marketing is a fad. It's going to go away. There's no traction behind this industry, whatever it may be. So we kind of sat down and said, okay, this marketing stuff and the world has changed so much. You don't buy a car without watching a YouTube video. You make 80% of your purchase decisions based on what you see on a company's Instagram, everything's changing, fucking everything, right? Streaming services, how we watch sports, the zone, the whole world and how we consume everything

is changing. So I said, why don't we just go in and try to disrupt the shit out of traditional marketing companies and see if we can't make something here? So I hired sales guys. I hired marketing executives, et cetera, and I started building the building blocks to the marketing agency component of our business to be able to take on media, to be taken on experiential, take on all the different nuances of the marketing world. And guys, that's what set it on fire.

We won Entrepreneur the Year Ernst and Young. We were the fourth fastest growing company in the country last year. And this is all due to the fact that Viro Nation's position to take on that change. Fast forward to now, without saving you all the nuances, failures, and hardships that come along with seven years of that type of growth. We have Viral Nation talent still in existence, largest talent agency in the world who represent hundreds and hundreds of influencers as their agents. We have Viral Nation marketing, 140-person organization.

We run marketing campaigns around the entire world from everyone from Call of Duty to Disney to Tencent in China to Amazon Prime to Prime Video, you know, you name it. We represent a majority of the blue chips. And then we have a technology company that we spun out about two and a half years ago. And Viral Nation as a whole is powered by tech. So everything we do when we're looking to pair an influencer with a brand or we're looking for the results of, things we're doing and etc. We're able to do that all with data and we have partnerships with every major platform. So we've turned this thing from representing influencers to a global marketing company to a technology company and we're actually coming out in the next three months here with

a platform that allows people to become influencers. So we're trying to get it from I want to be an influencer all the way to the other side of the spectrum and just really cover it all off. So that's that's what got me started and that's where we are today, boys. That's amazing. I want to kind of unpack deck. There's a lot to unpack. And so I want to start with the different areas for people that have interest in influencing or heard about it. And they're just like, I don't have a damn clue. So when you talk about talent, so let's talk about just that business for Vival Nation. So you represent talent. And so when you're working with talent, you're finding people from all, to tell me a little bit about the people that you're working with, A-list, Z-list,

reality, athletes, musicians. And how do, like, contracts work? Is it exclusivity? Is it, like, you just to find out one-one deals? Like, tell, you know, the average person What is the talent division like? Our talent division has changed so much over the years because it went from having to give someone your unborn child to have them sign with you and trust you. The industry went through a pretty shitty phase where a number of people were being duped into exclusive contracts

with guys who had no credibility, which killed a lot of the trust in the industry. There's been so much. But today, a majority of viral nation talent is exclusive on two to three year engagements. And those talent are generally large, like who can create what we would say a earnings enough to justify not having a job. Because when we sign a talent, it's not just looking at their inbound emails and transferring them into money, their personas, we build their brand, we reach out to brands on their behalf, we do their merchandising, we do licensing on their behalf. And for the crazy ones who want to get into the real entertainment world, we help facilitate that as well, right?

So viral nations really become more selective, I would say, when it comes to the influencers that we represent. Because I'll tell you, you know, the influencer world is packed with a number of different people ranging from politicians all the way to, you know, only fans, girls, right? So it's a really interesting business and what never want to be is silo to a specific category, right? So the problem is if I represented, you know, every, you know, I represented every person similar to Jason, then how do you? fairly distribute those opportunities. So what we try to do is get the best of the best from every single category from every single platform and foster them. I'll give you an example. In February at Barrel Nation talent, our top grossing influencers were doctors. We represent a lot of doctors on social, right? So it's just really interesting. We try to be very selective and find creators

and not necessarily people that, uh, influencers that people just like looking at them. That makes a ton of sense. So I'm thinking about some of our followers, right? And they follow bachelor nation. So give me, tell me how this example would work. You got bachelor nation. And all a sudden it's like a Monday and there's 8,000 people in bachelor nation pitch and sugar bear hair. And I hate to even give them a plug, but I just did. And so explain to me where Vival Nation comes in there if it's one of your clients, right? So will you guys work directly with with a company like that. And then you're pitching them on what exactly you can do in the space

from an exposure perspective. And then is it a process where they would cut a big budgeting check and say, battle nation, go do it. Go hire the influencers, get the deliverables, get me the impressions, give me the likes, get me the comments. Is that how it works? Like soup to nuts, like 101? How does it work?

In a case like sugar bear hair, right? Like you hit on an interesting example because we would actually, you know, thinking about Bachelor and et cetera, We would actually advise against doing those types of promotions for those types of brands because they're almost too salesy. When we look at people like yourself, Jason, we think about things like how do we get, you know, Jason's podcast put on Spotify and develop an e-commerce store around it? How do we get Jason working with Bloomberg to start talking about new ventures and having them sponsor him? So when we look at people, especially coming out of the reality TV, Ron, what you see too often is they go for any type of. monetization they can get because they're new, right? So it's like one day it's an, you know,

an ass lifting device. The next day it's teeth whitening. The next thing, you know, all of these stereotypical, you know, call it shitty ads, people don't like on social because they need patience, right? Because sometimes to get the big deal, you've got to wait two, three months. And they have, they're turning down all these micro deals, which is psychologically hard for people who have never had money to them that way. So it can work two ways with Barrel Nation. One is a sugar bear hair or a sugar bear Harris agency will reach out to viral nation talent, looking for specific talent to put on their campaigns. Or they'll reach out to viral nation marketing and we'll close a $5 million deal with them

and we'll build the campaign and choose the influencers and develop the whole thing for them. It's two different streams. Interesting. So yeah, that is so fascinating. I will say what Joe's saying also correlates to how they do work because I've done deals with Vimal Nation. And the deals I've done are all blue chip companies. and they all align exactly with the platform I'm trying to build right now, which is all about career management, personal finance. I won't get into the specifics of the company,

but they're the big, big business brands that correlate exactly what I do, very organic and it was a perfect fit. So all that does align with the stuff that you're seeing. Now, tell me about the industry in general. And before I even ask you to open up about that, I'll tell yeah, to me, it's just crazy. And I say it's crazy because it's a wild, wild west. And I have there are people in the bachelor world that I'll have the same exact following, the same season, same everything. And I'll know that my rate is three or four times theirs. I've seen so many scenarios in which people just don't know their ass from their head and they have different agents completely taken them to the cleaners. I've also seen examples in which like there might be like,

let's just give an example. I have a LaCroix here. LaCroix will cut off a, you know, a hundred K for X, Y, and Z person, and then the agent may take 50K off the top and then find, you know, an influencer that they can get who knows the least amount of the business and do it at like the smallest amounts. I know that's not the way Vival Nation works, but I am curious. The things I just said, do you think there's accuracy behind them? And tell me more about that side of the industry that you may have seen in your day as a motivator to do things differently. Yeah. So it's unfortunate, like I'm not lying to you when I say I had to help an influencer get out of agreement where he was on an 80-20 split with his agent. The agent was 80. Oh my God. Yeah. And the influencer

thought it was completely normal. You know, you know what? Unfortunately, guys, when it comes to human nature, unfortunately with success comes these types of attacks, right? You know, you see during COVID, credit card frauds are going through the roof. Whenever there's something someone can attack to make money quickly that benefits themselves. You open yourself up to these types of things happening and unfortunately you can't stop them. That being said, the influencer industry, I want to circle back because I think there's an interesting undertow globally happening here, guys, that I think people are ignoring that I think it is insane, which is there's polls out there that are saying that 86% of young people want

to be influencers when they grow up. There's 75% of young people saying they want to do influencer as an occupation when they grow up. You can't be a politician without being an influencer. You can't get in the next star movie without being an influencer. You can't get casted for a show like The Bachelor unless you have a social following. Social following an audience, and it doesn't have to be 20 million. But it is the be all end all in the future of this next generation that's coming. If you look at the successful startups, they're successful and have lines around the street

because they have viral posts on their Instagram. Everything is coming to a head like this. So it's going to take a lot of time, not only for the world to adjust to it and understand it, but for there to be some type of centralization. I've heard a lot of rumors about things like an influencer union, SAG getting into the influencer space, et cetera. Problem is it's too big.

It's too big. There's too many nuances. Christ, there's 2 million video game streamers with over 100,000 subscribers. It's crazy. It's just different. It's just different. But unfortunately, guys, like, I've dealt with, and I won't say which ones, but I've dealt

with UFC fighters whose agents have done the same thing to them. And they don't know because they're fresh out of Ireland and they know how to pound people's faces in. I've met celebrities who've lost their careers because they've signed with the wrong people, et cetera. Unfortunately, you're never going to change that aspect of this business. And I want to get into the weeds on that a little bit and talk more about how some of the A-listers are actually making their way on to social media.

I get into that, though, I want to take three steps back for people that are listening that are like, it's not lasting. This whole world, you know, like some of my buddies will see, I'm like, guys, you won't believe what's coming in, the deals and how it's coming in, the brand, and it's building and the impressions. It's going to be gone tomorrow. And I tell them, I'm like, guys, I might be gone tomorrow. Instagram might be gone tomorrow, but social media marketing is not going anywhere. And I'm curious what your retort would be to someone that says, this is a fad, it's dying. Viral Nation is going to die because people aren't going to do advertising on social media. Talk to me.

It's scientific, buddy. Like, it's not even a debate. There's a great buddy drop there, by the way. I feel like we're going to scrumming from a Canadian. He's going to drop the bits on me right now. No, I'm on. I stand on your side, but I want to hear, like, with all your success and the big company you run, like, how you defend that stance. If you look at it, the problem is that social media gives people,

chemical reactions. I know that sounds insane. I'm not a conspiracy guy, but when someone grows a certain amount on social media, does something back here that motivates them, unlike anything else in the past, right? When you're watching TV and taking in content or you're doing a play at school, that didn't happen. But now when that one person comments, whether negative or positive, it does something in here. So what the problem we have is, is social media is not about influencers. It's about feelings. So I'll give me an example. One of the biggest problems with social media that I'm looking for different ways to try to support is you're having it start to fundamentally change how people's popularity in school is, right? So that good looking girl in high school has

20,000 followers and I have 2,000 and now I feel inferior based off of likes and comments. So it's not just influencers. It's captivating young people, right? I was on, I was playing Xbox last night with my brother and this random kid joined our game. And he's like, hey, guys, I'm streaming right now. And I'm like, oh, cool, man. I'm like, how many people you got watching? He's like, I got three. That's up from one last week. And like, I'm doing this, man. And his level of incitement for three people watching him to me really proves to me that it doesn't need to be at scale. People just love that little bit of attention from people outside of their network. So with all that being said, yeah, brands might not do influencer marketing at the same scale or size or whatever that they're doing it now.

Yeah, Instagram might be gone and something might replace it, sure. But the reality is now you've unleashed a beast that is so fundamentally tied into how humans do stuff that you're not going to be able to pull that back. And there'll always be ways to make money around it, develop on it, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So I think chemically in our brains, it's going to be impossible to pull it back unless you get rid of it. it. And if you try to get rid of social media and you think the riots in the US and different things are bad, they'll burn this world down. Yeah, I don't see, especially when you talk about like the consumer behavior portion of it. David, you had a thought there? I just, I work with teenagers as my job and the priority and the pedestal that they put social media on. It's literally

how they judge things and the pressures that, that they go through with it. It's, they'll think someone's attractive if they have more followers, right? They'll think someone's cooler because they have more followers, they'll be more inclined to, it's just crazy. And it's, like you said, it's a feeling. It's built into their DNA. It's like a drug. And it's, it's scary, to be honest. Good for you guys, because it's your business. Well, yeah, and we're trying to go about it appropriately. And with respect. I know that sounds cheesy. But, you know, we're teaching the influencers we represent that they need to be responsible for the audiences that they have. And we have a very low tolerance when it comes to different types of views and different opinions that they're putting

out on their social, because they don't realize how powerful they are. I was, I ran an interview, I was interviewed yesterday or the day before by the New York Times about this exact thing. And I was telling her, there's no prerequisite to being an influencer. So back in the day, the people who delivered their messages to us, it was either comical, which meant it didn't go through anything and you didn't take it seriously, or they went to journalism school. Then they started it in the mail room. Then they work their way up to gain that credibility. Then the editors used to check it and then it would go out to you. Now, you assault an Uber driver, you go viral, you get half a million followers. And now this woman who is so unqualified to speak to children

is now talking to half a million of them overnight. So it's insane, guys. There's no prerequisite. So you're just going to, you know, then you can look at it in the lens of the world, which is the world is full of some shitty people and some people who, you know, and now you're giving the audience. So you got, it's very hard to control and very hard to pull back. Yeah, I never thought about it from that aspect, but to both of your points, I remember I was in Rochester and their, my buddies, kids were playing. I think they're like 10 years old. And I was there all day. I don't talk about, you know, the show or whatever. And the one kid said the other, he's verified. And the other kid looked at me like, I was like a super, you have a blue check mark. How do you have a

blue check mark? And then I showed him, he's like, I see your Instagram. I show him my following. you would have thought he saw like a superstar. I'm like, dude, if you only knew, it was just because I got dumped in the middle of Thailand. Like, it's nothing that cool. It gets worse. Like the kids are these days, are like,

oh, did you hear so-and-so is TikTok famous? It's like, yeah, he got 10,000 likes. He's TikTok famous. I'm like, famous back in our day. It's like you had to be somebody, be, you know, it's like TikTok famous. You're famous like that. And it's like you said, it's just,

you talk about Jason, when I got verified, yeah, eight, nine people I went to high school with, came out of the woodwork and asked me why. And I was like, was this so important to you that you need to know? I don't know. I make Instagram lots of money, so I'm sure they were just being kind. Like, what do you favor? We get email sometimes, guys. I obviously won't say who they're from, but like celebrities, email and athletes and be like, I'll pay you 100 grand to get me the verification on Instagram. I'm like, what? Tell them next time they could take my blue checkmark for 100.

But it's a very powerful, but that goes into the psychology shit we were just talking about, guys. Like, you give that person the blue check and it fulfills them. It's like fucking things they used to. It's crazy. That's the feeling they get. It's insane. So it goes to the behavioral part. I want to talk quickly about the business side.

Tell me from your vantage point, all the big companies you guys are working with. Why do you think they'll continue to put dollars on this? I think COVID was my best evidential proof I've ever had when it comes to marketing. So I'll give you an example. Over time, certain traditional aspects of marketing become accepted, even though they never really got verified, right? So every time there's a movie or The Bachelor is going to premiere a new series, it's off the side of the highway in New York City, and it's here and all the traditional stuff was

up, right? And that's become normalized. The issue we had when we were growing, I remember when our average. deal size was like 50 grand, right? And it was because we had to convince brands that this was a good thing to do. And now what happened was with COVID, they shut off their sports sponsorships. They shut off their TV sponsorships. They turned off their traditional advertising in the train stations and all this stuff. And guess what? They fucking grew. So that to them was like, whoa, like I didn't spend that money and we made money. So why am I spending that money there? And that's

part of like the growth that we saw through COVID, that's where it came from, right? So when I talk about influencers, there's three fundamental reasons why influencers are really, really amazing for a brand and they might not even be what you expect. One is in the history books of marketing, word of mouth advertising is the best form of advertising you can achieve. So when your wife shoots a text to her girlfriend and says, check out this dress place in L.A. We got to go there. That is marketing heroin. Okay. And what influencers are are is a word of mouth on steroids version because they're telling their friends. Their friends just happen to be two million people who respect them and admire them for some

reason that they connect with. So that's number one. Number two is the millennial and Gen Z base of our world, especially today, could give a shit about a brand. There's no loving connection like McDonald's used to have with families where, you know, they would hug the golden arches when they went to get their things, right? Actually, fundamentally, young people now don't trust brands. think brands are the big guys. They think that, you know, they do all this awful stuff.

Amazon's the devil. And what influencer does is it disconnects the brand from their consumer. So instead of Amazon telling you that Amazon Prime Video is awesome, which it is, you're having someone who they trust say it for you. So it's that distillation between the brand and the consumer that influencers create. And then the last beautiful piece of influencer is, Jason, what you could create on the campaign you worked on with us is far more relatable and far more consumable than what that brand would have been able to do on their own. So the content that influencers make is just so mainstream and just so normal. It's not overproduced and people actually engage with it.

So that type of content to a brand has now become extraordinarily valuable. So it hits all three buckets. And then guys like me who have these huge infrastructures around it, I can go in and create event around one of those things. I can put paid media behind those things. I can do the traditional things around those things. So it's just, it's the power of word of mouth and the intersect between brand and consumer and them being the advocate instead of the brand.

And then one thing I never thought about until right now, but these brands are probably saving a shit ton of money, not having to hire these crazy production companies and creatives because when we do get these deals, and David, you probably don't even know this, but like we'll get like a whole deck on how it should be created, thoughts, ideas, strategies, things they want to take away. You get the deck, creatives up to you. It's like, you know, there's parameters to go with, but like you're in charge of what it's going to look like and how it's going to feel.

So they must be, and that being said, saving money and then getting an increase on their return, just more reason on both sides of the equation that we just address, the consumer behavior with the phone in their hand to the businesses that are actually creating the spending, it's a win-win situation. And to anyone out there that say it's dying, I'm telling you right now, you heard it here from Joe, you heard it from myself. It's not going anywhere. So I am sorry. You're still going to hear us say swipe up every now on that. All right. I got to get into this, though. One of the comments I always find funny is like David will talk. He'll be like, dude, I can't believe. Like, you're like a reality show bachelor. How the hell do you have more followers in this person or this person? Like how? I know this person. This person is about 8,000 shows. It's like a big, a big celebrity, but you have more of a social media following. So I want to bring that to your business, Joe. You see this all the time. Are you starting to see some of these like older, super familiar faces, extremely established careers, slide their way into social media. And because I see some of these people, I'm like,

these guys got to be multi, multi, multi, multi, millionaires and they're sting girls and they're still pushing and pushing social media. Why is it that some of these old timers or even new times that just didn't do social media, why are they getting in the game now? So there's two things I want to addressed there that I think you'll find extremely amusing and insightful. We were taught to admire celebrities and athletes. Okay. And the problem with admiring celebrity and athletes, like if we think about Leonardo DiCaprio, LeBron James, all these guys is, you know, phonetically, they're not, like we're not relatable to them. We can't relate to them really. You know, sure, we love the posh and the luxury and all that shit. But like, I'm never going to be LeBron James. I'm never going to

be Leonardo DiCaprio. I'm never going to have a lifestyle like that, etc. So when influencers came onto the scene, it was this familiarity. It's like, I could be like Jason. I couldn't be like this influencer. I love what this person's doing. This is my interest.

They're normal. They don't make $25 million a year. All these things made them more relatable, which made them being able to deliver messages so much more powerful than celebrities and athletes. I beat out. I worked on a campaign with Apple, where I took influencers and Apple hired another agency with Rovio, and they did Justin Bieber

and Demi Lovato, I think, at that time. And my influencers, these guys got 100,000 clicks to the app store. My guy's got 500,000 clicks to the app store. My campaign cost one-tenth of theirs. So the power of them is not only just visually bigger, it is actually more fundamentally powerful. So we're working with the number of brands now who are in the athletic space to move some of those athletic endorsement models to influencers as well to gauge the future of how they're doing what they do from a celebrity side there's two reasons why they make the move back to social one is what we talked about that chemical thing they don't like the fact that they're not big on social and the other person is they don't like being the big guy who doesn't why don't i have 50 million

followers on instagram they have this moment where they're like no no no i'm coming like right And that's why you see sometimes they come out of the blue. You know, like when they launch their page and it's like, boom, it has no followers. Now, the other thing is greed, right? And I don't mean greed in a rude way. I should say is revenue potential. What they're learning is that their counterparts like Dwayne Johnson, like Will Smith and etc., are now getting opportunities based on what they've created digitally, right?

So they're seeing The Rock getting a full-blown three-year deal with. afford that's only going out on social. They're seeing the rock promote his movies on his social channel and getting five million views on a trailer for free. The studios are seeing that stuff, etc. And now the actors who have that social component are becoming more, the studios want them more than the guys who don't have it because those guys are able to do promotion around those specific activations way bigger than anyone else. And then in the athletic space, those guys are monetizing like crazy, Jason. So like the LeBron's and these guys, because they have that big social, those checks go up exponentially. So these guys are like, okay, if I can do what he does,

like we're partnered with a company at a New York and they're doing Tarek Hill's YouTube channel. They're doing a number of these different guys YouTube channels because they all want to do it because they also see it as a retirement plan. So it's really sharp with them to get into it, but it's either for the clout or it's for the monetization. Yeah. And you think about Well, you just brought up the rock. You think about those numbers, how astronomically different things have become just in a short period of time where the guy's got 225 million followers, right? You think about the old days of marketing. The Super Bowl was it. Like that the most expensive commercial out there is the Super Bowl. There is nothing else. I think this past year is about 91.5 million people that watch the Super Bowl. This guy every single day, 24-7, 365 days. a year just on his Instagram. That's just one form of social has two and a half X of the people watching the fucking Super Bowl. So you think about, I mean, how this has changed the game so drastically. Do you think The Rock makes more money off social media than he does when he lands

these huge A-list celebrity movie deals? Yes and no. I actually have insight into how many story views that guy gets on a story because of a deal we were putting. Which are how many? No, I can't say, but it's the population of a small country. And what's interesting about that is you're dead on, Jason. Like, you know, the promotional value of that is obscene. Like, you've seen it. You know what's pretty interesting? You ever see a celebrity launch their Instagram account just to promote the movie they're in?

Oh, yeah. It's hilarious. It's like just started by Instagram two posts later. It's the trailer for their new movie, right? Yeah. So I think what they're doing more so than making more money off of it, they're using it as leverage to move up everything they're doing instead. I don't think it's a singular vehicle.

I think after retirement and et cetera, et cetera, it could be that. But right now they're just using it as a way to get the money they would have normally gotten tripled their quadrants. Interesting. All right. So it's fascinating to see how this world is changing and to be part of it.

And not only to be part of it, to be part of it many years ago that you were, is just fascinating. Where do you think we'll get to it? I have some friends that are like, man, you must be grinding, you know, making 10 grand, 10 grand every six months doing what you're doing. And then other people are like, what are you doing? And then, you know, sometimes you'll drop, like, actually last month, it was crazy.

I made six figures. They'll be like, what the fuck should you just say? And so when do you think this world is actually going to become open in the fact that people understand this stuff? Like in general, like if I say, okay, what is a general manager of a car dealership may make. We all have a pretty good idea. Or, you know, just pre-occupations. Like, we have a good idea what teachers make and nurses. When do you think, like, this world becomes normalized where, like, people actually do understand from both the creator standpoint and the consumer

standpoint, one, what the rate should be and two, what people like this do make with these things. Yeah, I try not to tell people what some of our guys make, like, just acquaintances and buddies, because it gets them all sour, right? Like, I'll be like, you know, a 17-year-old kid on TikTok made $2 million last month, and he wants to jump off. Yeah, exactly. It doesn't go to college, just dances like this. Yeah. He unboxes technology products and he makes as much as the CEO of Samsung.

Yeah. Why it'll never be normalized is because there's too many nuances to it. So I'll give you, I'll just, I'll break it down a very easy way. So what I have is the rating factor. Okay? So you have influencers who fall into the PG bucket. PG bucket influencers make the most money. because as soon as you leave the PG bucket and you go to like parental advisory, you lose 80%

of the blue chip companies, you lose the Disney's, you lose the Colts, you lose all those guys with brand safety. Can I stop you right there and just ask you because I know I'm going to forget the question? How would you be able to tell if someone is parental PG, PG-13 R-rated? What system do you have in place to do that? We are in the process of filing our patent applications on how we do that and we're going to be the first company in the world that's going to be able to do that. If we could have a follow-up chat about that, I'd love to because that would go with your mind.

Okay, sorry to interrupt, but I had to interview that. No problem. But, yeah, so the PG influencers, then you cut off 80% of the blue chip pie. You're left with BenMGM. You're left with Monster Energy, Red Bull, all like the brands who are a little bit edgy, right, who are cool with that type of nuance. Then when you leave PG-13 or whatever it's called parental advisory, and you move into rated R, which there's a huge chunk of influencers there, mass.

from YouTubers to Instagramers, etc. You cut all those guys out. So now you've got startups, VPNs, gummy bears, only fans, you name it, right? So there's that distillation. And then there's the economical distillation of the different types of verticals. So I'll give you an example.

Kid influencers make way more money than reality TV. Tech influencers make way more money than gamers do. So then it comes down to the vertical. So if you look at all the different verticals, beauty, technology, gaming, et cetera. Then you look at the economies around those genres, right? So the gaming communities, fuck, it's huge, but it's not really monetized. There's not companies making huge money in gaming yet, like big, big money. Then you look at cosmetics and stuff like that,

monster budgets, and those influencers make a lot. And then just to throw another twist into it, then you've got to look at influencer dilution. So there are 500 times more beauty influencers than there are technology influencers. There are 5,000 times more comedy and entertainment influencers than there are streamers, right? So then you've got to look at how big is the pie of influencers. So the problem is there's so many nuances that go into understanding the values of these guys. I can do it off the top of my head. Like if you said, this influencer, what do you think they make?

I could probably nail it or get really close just because I've worked with all. But in terms of centralizing and understanding that, we're a long way from there. Because then you have the micro-influencers versus the base. ones. And if the celebrity tier influencers versus the small ones, like there's too many zigzags to centralize it. Yeah. And I, at a much smaller scale, understand, too, also like engagement has a huge part of that, too, is my understanding. Right. So you could have an influencer that has like 20 million followers, but they have just absolutely no engagement. You could have an influencer as a million followers. Their engagement might be three, four X of someone with 20 million, and therefore

their rate could be actually more than the person of 20 million. And one of the things I've heard about just real quick here. And then David, I want to hear your follow up there is about the whole because people are like, why are all the Bachelor people? Like they go and why are they like just slinging shit left and right? My understanding is that the engagement within the Bachelor community is relatively high to other, to other reality TV shows. And in addition to that, it's actually a pretty concentrated demographic of like 18 to 44 year old females, which strictly talking business I have heard is more advantageous for most companies to try and tariff. get, therefore, rates are higher. Is that true? And then Dave, jump in with any other thoughts you

have. Yeah. So what's interesting is, and why I've taken an affinity and pointed a couple of my people in the talent agency to reality TV is because what's creating that engagement is the relevancy and the speed of size. So what that means is you look at influencers who take six, seven, eight years to grow their audience. When reality TV people have that moment where that thing they're participating in as big. It's generally between, you know, it could be a two-week to a six-month term that people are seeing them all the time. And depending on the popularity of the show, you see their growth kind of follow that popularity. And then that audience you come out of that is relevant and they're all active. And they've just made the decision to follow you. They've been

there for four years, right? So that's where the engagement stems from. That's what makes them valuable. And from an audience perspective, you better believe it, like women and that age group is number one in marketing across the board. Fascinating. David, I got to put him to the test here. So you said if you got given a influencer, you could guess kind of what they make or what their revenue streams are. You're going to ask me about Jason. I'm going to ask you about Jason. Jason, you don't got to say, you don't got to say he's right or wrong. But give us people at home a guess. Social media only. Let's go social media only.

social media only. It depends. If he's signed with viral nation or not, it could go off. Or you could just do, we could break it down to one. What do you think a story or a post would be? How about that? Is that easier? That'd be great.

That's unfair because I signed the agreements. That's true. David, in the recap, why don't you ask me that question? I'll tell you the answer. No, no, no. Hold on. I want to guess. I want to guess.

I think he would probably, with the ebbs and flows of the year, net out if he's done it properly between 400 and 600,000 year. Wow. And in social media deals. Social media only. Social media only. Okay, good stuff. Here's going to be a good tease in this recap.

David, I'm going to give you the breakdown. I'm going to tell you about that. So stay to the end of that. Perfect. Good question. All right. So, wow, I could talk to you all freaking day, Joe. But we have a quick segment here with rapid questions.

So I'll fire some questions off to you. Some relevant to this conversation. Some not. Just curious what your open thoughts are. and if you don't feel like answering, just say no comment. But let's get this going. What's the first brand deal you ever closed? Sugar crisp cereal.

Hmm, sounds good. I like that. How much was the brand deal? Sam Bennett, $5,000. There you go. Sammy. I could only imagine the celebration that happened when that took place. You don't even know.

Oh, my God, we're doing. I spent six grand celebrating. Okay. So how about the biggest, so this question, obviously, you have information you can't disclose, but I think one or the two you might be able to. The biggest brand deal you did, either the company or if you don't say the company, actually a size, like a sizable deal. The biggest deal I've ever done in this space is about $25 million.

Okay. Wow. Jesus. I still, it's like hard to comprehend. That's a few boxes of sugar crisps, sugar crisps cereal. Yeah. That's a step up from those days. All right, here's one.

So obviously you're an early adopter. You're at this space before it blew up. You've got to be on your phone off and you already talked about it. What's your average screen time if you go to your settings on your phone? How often are you on your phone? Three hours. What? Come on.

I can't. What are you on your computer? You just have a good team. My wife checked it the other day as like a punishment. She was like, let me see that. If you're not, because she kept saying, well, you're always on your phone. And I said, check the screen time. And she guessed four hours or four and a half hours or something.

I ended up being three, which is how I know that. But, yeah, no, three hours is usually my... But I watch YouTube videos on my phone. Okay, three hours is nothing. So we had Skinny Confidential, yes, a couple days ago, interviewed her. And so we were talking about this, actually, it came up. And she said hers was like nine. Actually, mine was like eight.

And then Evan over here, who's a producer on this show, pulls out his phone. It was 14 hours. And she just started chirping him. She's like, clearly you're just, like, beating your meat. Like, no way you're productive on a call like that for, for that long. Amazing.

Okay, Joe, this has been awesome. Before we wrap up here, we always end with one segment. And the segment, of course, naturally, just the name of the podcast, is trading secrets. So if you could think, I mean, we already talked about a lot of the ins and outs of your business. But if there was one secret that probably the average consumer wouldn't know as it relates to influencer marketing, influencer spend, influencer growth, whatever that might be. What is one trading secret you can think of that the average consumer, you know, might just

listen to that and be like, damn, never even thought of that, even though you've dropped about 30 of those already. My secret's a little bit negative, but it's valuable. Being an influencer takes a lot more work than the average person understands. So a lot of people assume that guys like Jason are just, you know, it just happens. But the reality is it's content planning. It's the hustle. It's the editing. It's the constant ideation.

creativity. It's the looking like a loser in front of your friends for years while you're building your audience, the emotional stuff, people hating on you. It's not all sunshine and rainbows. And I think unfortunately, the space has painted it as anyone can be an influencer if you just pull your iPhone out. But it takes a lot more. So my advice, my secret would be if you're wanting to do something like this, you've got to commit like you would any other business or any other hobby that you're going to go at full tilt. to that. People are just like, oh, I have it so easy. I spend way more time on content creation, way more time than I did when I was a vice president senior banker grinding my balls

off at the bank. That is for sure, but no one would have a clue. So damn sure. That's my favorite answer to any question I think we've ever asked. And Kevin O'Leary, Kevin O'Leary said to himself today, he said he's busier now with all his platforms and social media than he was starting his own company, starting a startup, selling his companies for $4 billion in the early 90s. So that's a, that was a great, great answer. Put it in perspective. Well, Joe, everyone that's here in this is going to want to know more about your company, yourself, Viral Nation, everything you guys have going on. So from Viral Nation to yourself personally, tell us where people could find you and what's new and exciting and what

to expect. Listen, from a personal perspective, I'm, I'm on Instagram only. It's the only platform I have, being the social guy. It's just Joey Viral. And then ViralNation.com. Pretty simple stuff. But yeah, if there's anyone who ever needs advice or wants to learn more, they're more than welcome to reach out. But I want to thank you guys so much. This was really fun, man. And I think what we discussed today, you know, unfortunately these conversations aren't happening about this space. And this space is bigger, if not the biggest space in the world at the moment. So I think more to come here.

And I really want to thank you again for having me. This is super awesome. Living that dream making that money and money We are ringing in the closing bell with one hell of an episode with Joe, the founder of Viral Nation.

I feel like Joe's just a man. I want to call him Joey Viral, or I need a nickname for Joe. He's a big nickname guy. But what do we do every recap? We break it down with David. So David, as you guys know, he is the voice of the viewer,

the curious Canadian. So he'll get my take on everything we just discussed and oh my man the influencing marketing world joey viral said it himself it's the discussions people just like aren't having so david give me your breakdown what are you thinking man it's like i just went on a roller coaster um i got so many feelings to be honest about the episode and a little bit about my own life here that i'm going to share a little bit if if you don't mind yeah let's hear it it's just crazy like you obviously asked me to be a part of this podcast i'm as nobody as nobody's a get so talking a lot of these guests is so interesting.

And I'm learning so much and I'm put on the spot in these situations and it's really like uncomfortable but like nervous, fun feeling, to be honest. Like I don't know the space. I don't know what you guys are talking about. I'm just trying to be what you said,

the voice of the viewer. But today I finally got some comfortability talking to a hockey guy, a hockey guy myself. I was recording that in a hockey rink right off the ice from practice. Joe didn't believe me. He was like bullshit.

I like turned the lock off and he was like this is fucking awesome. So I was like right at home and, uh, and he was such a great guy. So calm, so kind, like such a smart, intelligent guy, but fucking wise and successful beyond his years. But then the roller coaster went down and I got to be honest and open up here a little bit. And I feel like some listeners might feel the same way. Like when you guys start throwing around those numbers of like how much you make for a post and you talk talking millions, you're talking half a million, you're talking whatever it is. Like here I am. I make $50,000 a year. I have a dream job. I coach hockey for a living. I do something I'm extremely passionate about, you know, the old saying,

do something you love. It'll never feel like you go to work. Well, it does feel like I go to work because I get bills and shit and I can barely afford to pay them. And I feel like there's a world that I'm missing out on.

And it's not maybe that I'm missing out on it or I just haven't got the opportunity or haven't made that opportunity. Maybe this is my opportunity right now. But I just feel like people listening at home, like, I hope there's some people who's like depressed, not depressed, but like have this feeling

that I'm having right now being like, is that true? How do I get a piece of it? How do I learn more about it? And I think one of the greatest things that we're doing with this podcast is we're talking about them. We're at least making them aware in a way where it's like we're trying to make it as relatable as possible

to hopefully inspire us. I think you just nailed so many things that we need to quickly break down here is that it's exactly right. I think people need to know that when this podcast comes out, regardless of the guest. It's not to be putting numbers out in a braggadocious or to put someone down

way. The idea, I think, too, is almost every episode to try and see the good and the bad, right? The times like a guy like Joe struggled and playing hockey and kind of got screwed up in the wrong things and dropped out of college to where the deals he's doing now. And one of the things I want to ask you when you say that is would you, like these uncomfortable conversations about money, whether it makes you feel good or bad about where you benchmark yourself, would you rather know this stuff? Oh, yeah. Or would you rather just, like, kind of not talk about it? It's fascinating. And it's fascinating from just knowing that they exist. And we've talked a lot about on the podcast with certain guests about being early adopters or early arrivals. Like,

there's still a chance. It doesn't matter who you are, what you're doing. There's still a chance to at least get a piece of it or at least know how you're contributing to the consumer side of it. It's just all educational. I think that's exact point of this podcast. Now, if someone's listening and they do feel down and I appreciate you sharing that, I think it's good for us to be aware of those feelings. But at the same time, if you have more information that's coming from a source like that, which he's executing the deals himself and did it from the ground up,

to me, to your point, it makes you a better, everything I'm trying to do with this podcast, a better consumer, investor, worker, employee, maybe business person. and I think you're right that it's never too late. Like you see TikTok, now Clubhouse is huge. I see people on their grinding every night to build that following. Like there are so many things that are coming to fruition every day that it could be. And you said you're not a dope, like, I'm a dope, but it can be there. Like, opportunity is there, I think.

All right. So I got my feels for a little bit there, okay? But I'm back. I like that. It's good to feel that. No, no, because I think you, David, at the core, is a guy. Yeah. I think of any of my friends, you have the best ability to talk about your emotions.

So I appreciate you coming on here and talking about your emotions. So now, since, you know, we are so close, it's still one of those things that, you know, again, purpose of the podcast to stop the stigma around talking about money, I didn't know any of this stuff, right? I didn't know how it relates in the world. I certainly didn't know how it relates to you. You've never talked about it. We've had many beers.

We've had many dinners. We've had many in the week's chats. My mind's fucking blown from all these things. And he said, and you kind of tease in, I'm like, I have this like highlighted, like I wrote it down, underline it. And you said, ask you. So I'm going to ask you. He predicted you make $400,000 to $600,000 if you're leveraging your social media right. Is he right?

Like, is that true? And how do I not know this? So here's one of the things I'm trying to do is make uncomfortable conversations comfortable. And I think it gets a little uncomfortable with your friends. like this this tightrope world of am I bragging? Am I being arrogant? Or is this like, do friends and family like actually find this to be like cool? So it's one of those things I probably don't really talk to as much. I think one of the things I do talk about it then is when people are like degrading it. Like dude, you used to have it all figured out. It used to be like a banker

and now look at you. That's when I kind of like want to puff my chest and like throw out there, like the reality of the situation. But I could get in, oh, man, I could unpack this for so long. So like, even just, I hated being a banker. I mean, I could talk about that for an hour. So like all this shit, like the PG rating bucket, like your rates being four times your peers is being an influencer really harder than people think it is. Like, how many fucking revenue streams do him have? Like, if social media is half a million, like, what the fuck's the rest? Like, did you pay for your check mark? Like, I need answers. All right. Okay. So we're, Where do you want to start?

Here's, okay, brain's moving 100 miles an hour. Yeah, I'm like shaking. You just hit me with a lot. You just hit me with a lot. The check mark, the rates, it wasn't always the case, but I could explain to you how that changed, when it changed, I'll tell, you know what, I'll tell you to the penny, how much I made, you know, we're in 2021. I'll tell you literally to the penny how much I've made in 2021 from influencing.

I'll talk to you about equity deals. I think Joe touched on so many things. So many. Like even the, the fact that the more G rating. you are and that there are computer systems in place that pick up on everything you do, it will decrease your likelihood of working with a bigger and better brand, the more kind of R-rated, X-rated, PG-13-rated you are. There is so much to tell here.

And I think when I'm thinking about this, I could throw all ballparks. I don't think that would justify anything. So what are your thoughts? You let me go back. And listen, Joe's episode was an hour. I did an intro. I'm filming this right now. I'm looking at the timestamp.

We're at eight minutes. So this is well over an hour. What do you think? I go back to the chalkboard. I let you pick me apart. I'll crack the vault open. You can ask me anything. The only thing I ask you is the questions you come up with that need specifics, like numbers.

You give them to me well in advance for the podcast so I can go through my quick books. I can get you all the accurate information. And next episode, we'll do it next week. We've got to record quickly here. I will open the vault to all that. but I'm not doing it, to your point, to, for Pete, I'm doing it for strictly the conversation of what you talked about and to start have these uncomfortable conversations because I'm putting people on the spot to do it and therefore I need to do it and I'm willing to do it.

All right, under one condition. I get to like go ham here. I get to ask like anything that has been on my mind for the last like three years since you came off the show that has anything related to do with your new career. I get to ask it. All right. I will agree to that rule. The rule will be, all the questions have to be about me. Yes. I don't want to talk about anybody else in this space. If people in this space hear this and they want to come on

and they want to give their suggestion, you come on. I don't want to talk about Caitlin's stuff. You come to me about me. I will open up every single thing. That's my commitment. Done. Where do I sign? Where do I have one more rule?

One more rule to you. I'm going to ask the people listening, but I know it's not going to be the case. No judging. Oh, 100%. You can't be like, oh, you think you're the best or this or that. Like, I just need it. I'll be open, but you can't judge. Like, you can't judge.

you just got to, we just got to have a deep conversation about it. I mean, at the end of the day, if people are listening and they should be listening, we just want answers. We want to know, right? We would just want to have an idea of that world. Like I said, my roller coaster ride, hopefully there's some more ups at the end of this, but we just want to know and be part of it and hop on for the ride. And you know what? It's like as we're talking about it, it's not all sunshine, rainbows, and roses. I don't even know what the hell that's saying is because there's a lot of huge concerns that I'll get into in this world. There's a lot of liabilities that I'll get into in this world. And there's also the biggest

white elephant in the room, which is the longevity of it. So today might be great, but what's tomorrow or next year look like? And what if you make one screw up and how quickly is it all gone? So that is a whole episode. You got my commitment. I got your commitment. I appreciate your honesty and opening up with me. That is the purpose and point of this podcast. I'm going to wrap it up if you're good with it. I'm fired up. All right. Let's close the bell. So we are going to close the that's a recap that's actually going to lead to another episode. David's going to the chalkboard. He's going to put together everything and anything he can.

When it comes to specifics, you've got to give it to me in advance. All questions coming at me go. There's nothing off limits as long as it comes about me and my take on influencing. And we will be back next Monday with an influencing marketing part two now. Part due. This is our first ever part two. Maybe our last. But we will be cracking open the vault.

with myself, David at the helm. So please tune in. I hate to say, I hate to say another episode, you can't afford to miss because I'm in the hot seat, but it might just be that. Anything David before we close? I do have one thing.

I've known you for 10x years now, and I have a million questions. I'm sure there's your fans out there that also have some questions. So people, if you have questions, we should do a call in. I think we do like a five stars and a comment on the subscriptions. I'm thinking something.

And if I don't get to it for this episode, since we're filming it next week, since we wanted to come out bang, bang, I'll find a way to get to your questions, people. Trust me, I'm a voice of the people for a reason. This recap just became like literally a producer creative. We just came up with all this right here. That's a really good idea, David.

If you're listening to this, please go give us five stars. Put your question in the review. Put your Instagram handle. We'll reach out to you. And then we'll have to get production to set up. We've never done call-ins. But let's do call-ins for anybody that puts questions in the reviews.

We'll reach out to you. You call in. You fire away. I think I'm starting to sweat thinking about this episode, but it'll be one hell of an episode. That being said, thank you guys so much for tuning into another episode of Trading Secrets. Make sure you tune in next Monday. Heartbeat's starting to go up for an episode. You can't afford to miss.

me making that money and money living that dream making that money money money way on me making that money living that money living that dream