Trading Secrets - 257. Chris Voss Returns! Former FBI lead crisis negotiator on reading people, building instant trust, & and turning pressure into power - the negotiation tactics YOU need to know

Episode Date: October 13, 2025

This week, Jason is joined by author, entrepreneur, professor, and most notably former member of the FBI, known as the mast negotiator, Chris Voss! Chris earned that title throughout his time serving as the lead crisis negotiator for the New York City division of the FBI, and then as FBI’s Chief International Hostage and Kidnapping negotiator. In 2008, after spending 24 years and working 150 international hostage cases for the FBI, Chris founded the Black Swan group which serves as a consulting and training agency for both businesses and individuals on negotiating skills. He has also published several NYT bestselling books. The former FBI hostage negotiator pulls back the curtain on the art and science of high-stakes communication. Chris breaks down his thoughts on President Trump’s negotiation tactics, explains what an “accusation audit” is and why it’s so effective, and shares how he reacts when others use his own techniques against him. He dives into knowing when to walk away, why every interaction should end on a high note, and what to do when you’re being ghosted. Chris also brings his negotiation expertise into everyday life—offering strategies for navigating dating, marriage, and divorce, the power of telling the truth, and why curiosity can be a superpower when dealing with tight-lipped people. He reveals how a kidnapping hostage negotiation unfolds, the cost of a bad deal, why trusting your gut matters, and his best tips for negotiating your salary. Chris reveals all this and so much more in another episode you can’t afford to miss! Host: Jason Tartick Co-Host: David Arduin Audio: John Gurney Guest:  Stay connected with the Trading Secrets Podcast!  Instagram: @tradingsecretspodcast  Youtube: Trading Secrets Facebook: Join the Group  All Access: Free 30-Day Trial  Trading Secrets Steals & Deals! Square: If you're starting a business, or running one that deserves better tools, Square helps you sell, manage, and grow without slowing down. Right now, you can get up to $200 off Square hardware at square.com/go/tradingsecrets  Momentous: Momentous Creapure ® Creatine is backed by leading performance experts like Dr Andrew Huberman and Dr Stacy Sims. Sourced exclusively in Germany, Creapure sets the gold standard for creatine, delivering the purest form, creatine monohydrate, that's rigorously washed and never cut with fillers. Go to livemomentous.com, and use promo code TRADINGSECRETS for up to 35% off your first subscription order Boll & Branch: Boll & Branch makes upgrading your bed easier than ever with curated Bundles for a sanctuary of comfort. For a limited time get 20% off Bed Bundles, plus free shipping and returns, at BollAndBranch.com/tradingsecrets.

Welcome back to another episode of Trading Secrets. Today I am joined again by author, entrepreneur, professor, and most notably former member of the FBI, known as the master negotiator Chris Voss. Chris earned that title throughout his time, serving. is the lead crisis negotiator for the New York City Division of the FBI. And then as FBI's chief international hostage and kidnapping negotiator, in 2008, after spending 24 years and working 15 plus international hostage cases, 15 plus?

150. 150. We lost the zero there. International hostage cases for the FBI, Chris founded the Black Swan Group, which serves as a consulting and training agency for both businesses and individuals. on negotiating skills. He has published several New York Times bestselling books. We're going to get into each of those. He is talking all over the country and educating the art of negotiation from all things in the workplace, financially, personally, and of course professionally. Chris, we are so excited to have you back on Trading Secrets. Thank you for being here.

At pleasure's mind. All right. I think this is where I want to start. I was thinking, you know, you do a lot of interviews. In a lot of your interviews, there's a lot of similar questions. And we're going to get to those because I got to make sure my listeners get all those tactics. But I want to start with something that seems very relevant right now. And I don't want to get into politics unless that's the way you want to go. But I do want to get into the idea that it feels as though that there's a lot of negotiations happening domestically and international, internationally, with President Trump. You know, he's written books on negotiating. There's a lot happening in tariffs in Ukraine and Russia. Now Venezuela, there's the hostage negotiation. There's the hostage

negotiation, still trying to happen with Hamas, that just seems like every headline in America right now has to do with some form of negotiation that is also impacting the economy and business. From someone like yourself, the master negotiator, what's your take on kind of his tactics and what he's doing? Because it seems like everyone's got a different opinion on it. I love what he's doing. And I did an interview just the other day talking about, you know, the question was, you know, he's unpredictable. He's not unpredictable. He's eminently predictable.

Interesting. And it's very different because the other thing that I love about what he's doing is politics, as they used to be, pre-Trump. The political negotiators are sort of like divorce attorneys. They don't negotiate for outcomes. They negotiate to stay employed. Hmm. And so the negotiations drag on and on and on. They're not negotiations.

A lot of grandstanding people stand up, talk at each other, whether they'd be U.S. State Department employees, you know, they say things that make themselves feel good, and they don't, they never get the outcomes. And if they do get to outcomes, they're horrible. And the interesting thing I found out about President Trump these days, like his first term, he relied upon people to do those negotiations on his behalf. and then you get some stuff that if you were to ask him candidly about the deal that he did in Afghanistan just towards the end of his last term you had government negotiators working for him is a lousy deal you know they put they put 5,000 Taliban back on a battlefield and the now now with version 2.0 where he's at now he didn't he's not relying on any of those people he had enough time to prepare He's got business-oriented people that are interested in outcomes, good outcomes.

And so he wants to negotiate. He doesn't want to play games that he's trying to bring Russia and Ukraine together. And he finds Putin of Russia effectively playing games. So he just stops talking to him. He doesn't continue to seem desperate to stay at the table. You know, they get them together in Alaska. They have a meeting, whatever Putin says in person, he clearly acts differently. And so what is President Trump?

Instead of begging like past, political leaders would have done. He's like, yeah, I'm going to look at something else. I'm not going to waste my time on this when you're not serious. And he doesn't engage a lot of government negotiators that want to come up with some half-ass deal with Russia. So he means what he says. He doesn't want to waste time. And if you're going to waste this time, he's not willing to stay in and get a lousy deal. You know, no deal is better than a bad deal.

He knows that a deal full of political compromise is a ship that's going to sink. It's lousy. So he's just not interested in it. He says what he means. He tries to engage personally. I'm watching a news clip, a lot of uproar today about what they're going to do with ICE in Chicago. So he's standing up in front of the press and he says, look, I think he called for either the mayor, Chicago or the governor of Illinois to give him a call. Yes.

and they won't like if you if you give him a call and you talk to him personally it's amazing how things work out and nobody really notices that example he's in a rock fight for years with trudeau the prime minister of canada and you don't want to get in a rock fight with him publicly because he doesn't like it and he retaliates very strongly one thing you'll notice with him is he doesn't start him. But if you start with him, you know, there's kind of an old country boy phrase, don't start none, won't be none.

As soon as you start with him, he's going to hit back really hard. He's trying to teach people he doesn't want to get into a public rock fight. Is that a good negotiation tactic from your lens? Yeah, it's an effective tactic. As long as coupled with that, if you sit down in person, you work things out.

So getting back to Trudeau. Yeah, rock fight back and forth going on for years. Trudeau's finally on the ropes, and he sees that people go down to Mara Largo and seem to settle things with Trump. He flies down to Mara Largo, has an in-person meeting, and suddenly everything's okay. Now, the problem with the politicians engaging in these rock fights for years, which is stupid, now suddenly Canada's mad at him for supposedly doing a deal with the bad guy. When in point of fact, he goes down, they go face to face, they come to an agreement, which happens over and over and over. Which is why he said the mayor, Chicago, governor, Illinois, give me a call. We'll talk. It's as simple as that. You know, sit down and talk to them in person. Don't throw rocks. Don't make public statements that embarrass people or preach to the choir.

Sit down and talk to them in person. And you see it. happened over and over and over. Bill Maher, critical of him for years. Mar goes and sits down with him in the White House. And God bless Bill Maher for being honest. He says, you know, the man I engaged with was charming, personable, felt well hosted. You know, he was a gentleman. And no deal is a deal until President Trump signs off on it. He doesn't want to deal through intermediaries. He's got a couple of people working for him right now that he knows will do a good job on his behalf. They won't compromise.

And then he wants to final approval of the deal. It's eminently predictable. Interesting. But nobody wants to engage with it. Politicians, they want to make noise in the media. They want to preach to the choir. And they're satisfied with lousy deals. And he's not interested in lousy deals.

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You, in a lot of your books and a lot of your lectures and speaking, you have a lot of phrases that I'll be referring to for my listeners. So if I get any of them incorrect, please correct me. But one, and this could be incorrect, but one is the accusation audit. And right, it's the idea of kind of starting the conversation, you're going to hate me for this and then repositioning it to kind of set the standard. When I was seeing a lot of the negotiations on the tariffs, am I using this correctly by saying there was a form of accusation audit being used from the negotiation standpoint when we would say,

we're going to come in with like an aggressive 50% tariff and then utilizing that to actually get where you wanted to get with the tariff? Or is that not the right? That's a little bit more of classic bargaining where you're starting high. Okay. You know, you're going to high anchor.

You're going to extreme anchor. Extreme anchor. And the thing about extreme anchoring is it's context dependent. Now, it tends to be effective if you're in a negotiation where you're going to make a deal, which is why frequently extreme anchoring in a mediation is effective because if you're in a mediation, both sides have kind of sat down

and we're going to make a deal. And in a trade negotiation, basically we're going to make a deal if you're a trading partner that should be respected if you've got assets and resources that are worth negotiating over. and you know we're going to make deals trade trade with the United States the economy is too big there's too much investment capital here the United States remains the entrepreneur center of the world you know there's some interesting theories as to why that is and there are probably several contributing factors one that I was listening to recently and I wish I could tell you which

famous businessman you know because I'm following a lot of these guys but he said there's more investment There's more risk capital here. More people are willing to spend money, venture capital, than anywhere in the U.S. So if this is where the money is, the entrepreneurs are going to come here. That's probably one of the reasons. So extreme anchoring tends to be effective to getting to where you want to be if you're locked into a relationship where you're going to make a deal. Now, extreme anchoring is a problem if I don't got to make a deal with you.

And you're going to drive the other side from the table. an extreme anchor with somebody who wants to deal with you collaboratively your extreme anchor with me I'm probably going to walk away I'm going to be insulted and you know we had this happens to me all the time

unfortunately people get asked people negotiate with you do they use your techniques on you and what happens well if they use the techniques on me and they're trying to collaborate with me I love it everybody on my team

uses Black Swan on me because we're collaborative We used it on you once. And we're collaborative, are we not? We were collaborative. It worked. We were trying to get you to come on the podcast, and we were working with your team,

and we just wrote to them, have you given up on this? And they responded, and we got it booked. Boom. It worked. Collaborative. Yeah, collaborative. And context appropriate.

I could get more into that in a second. But if you use the skills on me and I can tell you're trying to cheat me, then I'll walk away too. Got it. And that happens a lot, and I'll smell it because one of the most important things in negotiations is to know who to walk away from. And we counsel that with everybody that we teach. No deal is better than a bad deal.

You can sniff out a bad deal in the first 15 to 20 minutes if you're listening. And I teach everybody in my company, we walk away from those deals. I teach people to walk away from those deals. politely just because you're going to walk away doesn't mean you need to walk away in a huff or you know cheap shots angry words they'll always be a respectful and with respect and regard sort of sort of what we refer to as the Oprah rule I learned a long time I heard a long time ago because we were talking about the last impression is the lasting impression which means you should always in positively regardless so I'm talking to one of Oprah's people and she says

Oh, yeah, Oprah's always lived by that rule. And in the entertainment industry, it's usually in and a limo out in a taxi. As soon as we got what you want, go out on the street, catch a ride on your own, you're on your own. With Oprah preached to her people, in and a limo, out in a limo.

No matter how it went, people are going to be loved, felt loved regarded, respected at the end. Even if we disagreed, even if you refused to be on my show, then Oprah, her last words to everybody would be, no matter what, I'm always going to love you. So that's one of, even if I teach somebody to walk away, somebody's insulted you, somebody's

tried to pick your pocket, walk away with respect and deference, leave a good taste in their mouth, even if they left a bad taste in yours. So high anchoring, you extreme anchor on me, I may well never speak to you again. If I do, I will probably tell you what offended me and why? and then you got a shot to fix it. And if you choose not to fix it, best indicator of future behavior is past behavior. What if somebody made an honest mistake?

They didn't know any better. If I let you know, and you go, oh, okay, okay. Oh, I'm sorry. All right, all right, we'll do it again. Cool, we're cool. We're going to move forward. If I let you know and you do it again, then you have your answer.

You've been ghosted. You're ghosted. That's probably a good trend. There's a million transitions there because you talked about mediation. We talked about Black Swan. I'm going to get into those, but you end in with ghosted. I mean, he's a little mirroring, go right into ghosted. Talk to me about ghosting because we use that in the email, but right now in relationships, a lot of people are being ghosted.

They're dating. I'm in a dating scene. Like it's a thing, people are ghosted. What do you do when someone ghost you? What tactics do you provide those people? All right, you got to remember two things. First is a little complicated, but it's a good. great guideline if you can wrap your mind around it. The system you're employing is perfectly designed

to give you the outcome you've obtained. So if you're being ghosted, your communication with that person probably is causing them to ghost you. Now, nobody ghost you if they feel they're making progress. So whatever I was doing before and made them not feel like they were making progress. You stay in communications if they're doing you good if you get into where you want to go. Nobody ghosts you if you're taking them where they want to go. Right. So then now you got to put a little analysis into this. Am I just am I the wrong person? How do you find that out? Well you go back over the conversations. There could be there could be a mismatch in values. If you're the wrong person doesn't mean you're a bad person,

it just means you're a bad match for them. Good point. And they're a bad match for you. Yeah. So they could be eminently desirable, but something's wrong here. Now, you know, a candidate for being a significant other, is not going to ghost you if they sense of what the two of you want

out of this interaction, out of life, are the same. You know, maybe you're looking for long-term or life. They're looking to do nothing but party, or vice versa. Sure. Or maybe what's beneath the surface doesn't match. And they know that, and this is coming to an end. You know, you may, you know, there are a lot of people that they have a glittery life and consequently are deeply in debt.

Sure. Or they've got a passion for things you don't have a passion for. they're going to ghost you because they're not getting the dopamine hit off of you that they want they're driven by or vice versa maybe you're into it and maybe what you want is a thrilling dopamine existence and they're not into that so there's a mismatch so just think about why there's a mismatch I had a very close friend of mine a long time ago and this is like four or five relationships back okay I'm lamenting the loss of a relationship And he says, you know, it's been my experience. And he was a wise dude that relationships break up for a reason. And so even if you get back to her successfully, it's going to have a bad end. And I really thought about that because at the time, I really missed this girl. And I blamed myself for the damage.

But then as I was thinking about it, I thought, well, the damage was created because there was a mismatch between us. So, you know, just a hard look at how you got to being ghosted. Now, if you want to re-engage, then the no-oriented question, have you given up on? And then whatever it is, our relationship, our future, dating, it could be, have you given up on anything? It could be a business deal, which is a relationship. who's, you know, business deals a relationship,

a little bit of dating there. You won't have a relationship for a while, trust. Now, they're going to answer. What if they don't? Then if they don't answer, the answer is yes. So if they don't answer, then you've been ghosted.

If you get silence and the answer is yes, they have given up. You got your answer. You got your answer. Without getting an answer. Effectively, yeah. Support for today's episode

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difference. Square is a tool that I have used for so many years with small startups like my small startup business where I would construct resumes on the side all the way now to my businesses that are growing into the millions. Check it out. Okay, that's ghosting and dating. You already talked a little bit about mediation. I wrote a book on love and money. Divorce, of course, the hot topic, pre-numps are a real thing. Lawsuits now are becoming much more prevalent. There are studies just saying lawsuits are increasing. So I'm curious when it comes to, lawyers are getting good at getting paid. If any of my listeners here are maybe negotiating a prenup because they're getting married or they're going through a divorce or they're in mediation, what type of

negotiation strategies, tactics, advice would you give to them? Well, that gets us back to the the accusations audit that you mentioned before. Yes, yes. Now, if you're entering in a serious relationship, the earlier you bring up the idea that you want a pre-nup, the better. Okay. Because the person on the other side, being sufficiently warned, that's what all anybody wants.

I mean, if you want a pre-nup, you know all along you want a pre-up. The kind thing to do is to mention it earlier. And people appreciate that. Like, I'm in a committed relationship now. Not, not, I wasn't thinking pre-in-up, but the one thing that could be, could be a deal-breaker, you bring up your deal-breakers early. I remember Santor right up front,

not interested in kids. Just not. And she, wonderful girl. And there have been relationships in a past where, you know, I gave the, you know, the guy's nonsensical answer. Well, with the right. Under the right person, maybe we'll figure it out. Under the right circumstances.

Yeah. No, all those circumstances don't exist. That's deception by omission. And I tried that a couple times, and then it became an issue, and I'm like, you know what, I just, I know this is a case. I'm going to tell her right up front. And she's always appreciated and respect of that. It's come up occasionally since, but I'm in a position of honesty.

saying like, look, I, you know, I told you up front, you know, this was kind of understood. I never said, eh, in the right circumstances, that changed my mind, none of that nonsense. Same with a pre-nup. You're scared of saying it because up front, because you think it's going to be a deal breaker. You're doing the other side of the other person in a favor. They're going to appreciate it. Maybe they have hope, but they won't go, they will not have proceeded so far into the relationship, then to get caught off guard.

Like the day before the wedding People are so scared to bring up bad news All right, let's say you didn't do this Now you're in a serious relationship You're contemplating marriage You've got to have a pre-up Accusations audit is Saying out loud right up front

Where you know they're going to think Call out the elephant in the room Don't deny it, call it out What's the other person going to think If all of a sudden you want to bring up a pre-up they're going to think that you're planning on getting divorced you're the only reason why you want to do this is because you don't think this is going to work out

or you don't think the relationship I mean go ahead and say out loud the eminently predictable things that the other person is going to say they're going to feel respected for that interesting so you think about the things that they're going to say and you sufficiently warn them by saying those things before they say it and telling them in advance.

Don't pull your punches. Like if you think they're going, if you're afraid they're going to hate you, say you're going to hate me. If you're afraid and your gut, if your fear centers, your gut instinct tells you it's going to be heartbreaking, say it, this is probably going to break your heart.

Human beings are amazingly resilient if sufficiently warned. And if your gut is telling you that it's going to be heartbreaking and you say, you're not going to be comfortable with this. You pulled your punch, and that's not good. You've got to go all in and say, look, and if it's not heartbreaking to them, it's not going to make it worse. That's a crazy thing about the prediction of negative emotions.

it's actually an inoculation if you go if you go overboard so we always coach people don't pour your punches say it as concisely and as negatively as you possibly can you're going to think I'm a despicable person for bringing this up and if you do it really well your bad news is going to be a relief, which is the crazy thing about that. That's kind of asked backwards right there. It is. Like if you get ready to lay this on, you know, all right, so confining it to a heterosexual relationship, a man talking to a female, realizing that that leaves a significant number

of people out, but we're all human beings. Sure, sure. So we all react pretty much the same. If you say to her, you're going to think I'm a decision. despicable human being for waiting to not to bring this up what's she going to think you cheated you you got an issue you got a kid married you're married you got one wife i'm thinking terrible is that yeah terrible things yeah so you're going to go there now you can't let her linger there for long about the period of time of three seconds people brace themselves 10 seconds turns bracing into torture

so about three seconds and you say I got to have a pre-in-up and I'm going to be like oh God that's the relief I thought you were going to tell me you were married

interesting I know it sounds manipulative but it's a way to tell the truth and if you help somebody feel less pain by telling them the truth you're doing them a service I think so

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I always find it interesting to hear the things you tell us that we can do in our professional personal lives, but understand the derivative of it in your 150 plus hostage negotiation settings. Can you give me an example of when you use something like sufficiently warned or accusation audit in those examples specifically? Yeah. It's always interesting to hear. Well, I was using it more. with in kidnapping negotiations

it always goes through the family and so the real negotiation was collaboration with the family and a kidnapping negotiation by the time I show up at the family's door a kidnapping has been in play for at least 12 hours if not two or three days

sorry I'm a little confused a family is kidnapping someone I'm sorry you get kidnapped Okay. I'm going to go plug into your family. Okay. So I've got to show up your family's door. Got it.

Because the bad guy's going to call your family. Bad guy's going to take your phone, going to ask you what the passcode is. You're going to open up the phone, and they're going to type in three letters into your address book. M-O-M-D-A-D. Yep. And so they're going to be calling your family in short order. So I got to show up a mom's house first, dad's house first, get their collaboration. And if the bad guys haven't already called, the chances of them calling right after I show up are very high.

So I got to get mom and dad's cooperation as quick as possible. Interesting. So the way I do that is, I've done it enough times. I know how they feel. They feel scared, angry, outraged, frightened, alone. And having never met me as a representative of the U.S. government, they blame me. Sure. So when I step in a door, I say, I know you're scared.

I know you feel angry. I know you feel alone. I know you feel abandoned by the United States government. And I know that as a first rep of the United States government, you see, you blame me. Wow. And pretty much they're ready to rock on the spot. Wow. Because I have cleaned out all the negativity.

or at least diminished it to the point where they're starting to get level and suddenly this dude knows what the hell's going on. If you understand me that well, the chances of you understanding the situation are very high and then we're off to the races.

And that's a perfect example of like you're providing relief with doing yourself a service, them a service, and their child of service because it's going to help the process. It makes perfect sense. black swan right so this is your consulting group this is kind of this is the foundation of your brand black swan

so it's motorcycle gang doesn't it we see the motorcycle gang or ballerinas yeah i don't know i don't know i just think of a black swan so then i started looking into it and i say i was like what's the what's the derivative of this and my understanding it's named after the idea that people once believed that all swans were white until they discovered a black swan in australia showing people that one an unknown fact can change people assumptions, right? That's the idea behind it. I did a little homework, right? Now, my question about this is, not bad for being at a bills game till 11 in a flight at 6 a.m. The black swan effect, I think, and the ideas that you bring to the table are really interesting, but how do these things come to fruition if you're dealing with someone who's just extremely

tight-lipped? They won't talk. They give you one-word answers. How do you negotiate? How do you work with someone like that how do you bring an unknown fact to turn overturn an assumption if someone isn't willing to disclose anything or they're just being so reserved with their words yeah there's there's only two reasons why they're reserved they've been betrayed they don't trust you and they haven't been listened to you talk to and that could be in the past though right yeah because so it might even be an issue i've had with someone else but i'm bringing it to our table right got it Yeah, and which is always going to be the case. Okay.

There's Jim Camp called it baggage. Everybody comes to the table with baggage. First time we've crossed paths. If they're more than five years old, they got baggage that they know about. If they're under five, they got baggage. They just don't know what it is. So everybody's got baggage. There's no way around that.

So I'm going to show my understanding of that from the very beginning. If they're tight-lipped, because you talk if it does you any good. So you've been betrayed in a plast or the... that you're used to people not listening. That's right. Those are the only reasons why you're being tight-lipped. You'll talk to me if I listen and you can trust me. Interesting.

So if you're tight-lipped, I know that's what you're walking into the table with. And so we were talking a little bit about earlier about curiosity. Yeah. Curiosity is an irresistible force. So no matter how tight-lipped you are, if I'm deeply curious, you're going to open up. And I love proving that to people. A year, year and a half ago, interviewing a candidate for head of marketing for my company.

Inside of five minutes, I know we're not hiring this guy, and it's something really wacky here. How did you know real quick that you weren't going to hire him in five minutes? Because of what I sensed was really wacky. Okay. So what was really wacky was one of the pivotal moments in his life occurred over a Ouija board in a seance in his ex-girlfriend's mom's haunted house

that mom still lives in. And he threw this out as if he was talking about the haunted house just like, yeah, she lived on the western shore of the Chesapeake Bay. Really matter of factly, like it was a little bit unusual but not a lot unusual. You know, like somebody lives, western shore,

the Chesapeake Bay is a really cool place. Or, you know, somewhere on Long Island. Yeah, you know, she was on a house on a water on Long Island sound. I'm like, if that rolls that casually off your lips, where it's okay to be a sands in a haunted house and it would be like it's a greenhouse with purple shutters, different but not really wacky.

Yeah. You ain't working for me. Yeah. Quick five minutes. You figured it out. Yeah, but I got that out of him because I was curious. Interesting. And no matter who you are, I'm going to find out about you and you're curiously.

So I met another conversation, and a very smart, very capable woman who's pretty tight-lipped. She's like, I just, how did you get that out of him? I just, you know, I'm not buying that you can get that out of stuff that easily. So I think to myself, all right, I'm just going to be really curious about you. And immigrant family, entrepreneurial, people that have overcome adversity, her lineage, really, really cool lineage. So right away, I know there's something special about her, just from talking to her and her track record. And so I threw out like, you know, so, you know, your dad, you know, what do you do before he came to the United States? She's like, yeah, I really don't know what he did.

I don't remember. Not long after that, I uncover her father's total history, which was fascinating. This 10 minutes earlier, she said she didn't remember. Because she doesn't want to talk to somebody who's not going to listen. What was not actually interested. And I know that if I'm actually, and I'm really curious. And so I'm responding, everything you tell me about your background, I'm delighted to hear. I'm like, wow, wow.

you're going to open up. I don't care who you are. So the person you were talking about before who's tight-lipped, they're just tired of being ignored. Hmm. You know, I start telling you about my background only for you to interrupt with a story of your own

and while I'm halfway through my story. I tell you something that I did as a kid and you go, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I know what you mean. Same thing happened to me. You're tired of that nonsense. Mm-hmm. Which is the hijacking of conversations

You sit around a table and you hear people talking. I don't tell a story about my past because I want to tell you my story. I tell it because I know that you're going to interrupt me with your own story. So many steps ahead. And I actually want to hear that story. Wow. So the minute you interrupt, I know this interruption, this hijacking, some people call it story stealing.

It's such a problem. It's a problem because it's irresistible. so I want you to bond with me because when I trigger that moment in you I'm going to listen I'm going to talk with you about how it was about what it meant to you I'm going to be deeply curious and this is what people completely misunderstand about common ground when you were sharing common ground you feel like you're bonding with the other side most of the time the other side feels interrupted. Hell, I just started talking about what happened to me and I was a kid when you jumped in and said, oh yeah, same thing happened to me. And you're irritated. This is

annoying. Interrupted. Annoying. So since I know it's going to happen, I'll eventually probably get that when you've got your story out, that's when you're curious about me. And you won't be curious about me until you fully told me your story. It's a sequencing issue. So if we get in a personal background, I'll know you're going to jump in and completely interrupt whatever I have to say. Because you're dying to tell me, so I might as well let you tell me. And you're going to listen to me until you've gotten it out of you. So it's just a sequencing issue. So when you were negotiating, I always love the derivative, when you're negotiating against the bad guys and you're trying to build a bond with them so that you can get what you want out of

the deal, you'll use this tactic to actually connect with them. Well, I won't share anything about myself. I'll know that if I'm just deeply curious about them, it's just, they're going to open up. They're going to open up. How do you deal, I started this question with talking about people that are tight-lipped. Let's go to the opposite and we're kind of on that pathway of people that are telling you their story. Let's go into those who are control freaks and or even touch the form of narcissism. They're narcissists, okay? I've dealt with narcissists. They're extremely challenging individuals to deal with. Right. How do you negotiate with a narcissist who never wants to come to the

the table and negotiate. It's just not in their blood. It's not in what they know. What do you do? It's back to what we talked about at the very beginning, walking away. No deal is better than a bad deal. And a bad deal usually costs five times as much as a good deal would. So you've got to start running the numbers and then you got to have faith in the universe and a point of fact the universe is going to come through for you that's why people don't walk away from bad relationships bad deals because they see nothing but an empty void on the other side and that empty void is horrifying so they'll stay in a bad deal they're the type of person they call them monkeys they go from one vine to the next one relationship to the next

because they're horrified at being outside of a relationship. Or business people, especially real estate agents are famous for this, but they'll keep trying to woo a buyer that's never going to buy or they'll keep trying to woo a seller that's never going to sign a contract with them. Because they see nothing but darkness, emptiness on the other side. And point of fact, and this is really hard. hard when you're first starting out, the people with the bad deals are blocking the people with the good deals. The bad relationships are blocking you from the people that are great

relationships. And there's not much other than the experience of time that will really drill that into your bones. You guys know that I just got my place in New York City. And where do you start with a new place? To make a home a home, you've got to have crisp betting. And that's why I use Bowling Branch. And I would recommend we're going into the crispy fall time. There is no better time than to change your bedding. And there's just nothing better than a long day and you get into your bed and you have the finest 100% organic threads with unmatched durability and craftsmanship. You get the softest, highest quality sleep you can imagine, especially on a crisp fall night. That is the betting I have in New York City.

Trading Secret, you're going to get 20% off bed bundles. Bullen Branch makes upgrading your bed easier than ever with curated bundles for sanctuary of comfort. For a limited time, you'll get 20% off bed bundles plus free shipping and returns at BullenBranch.com slash trading secrets. That's Bullen Branch, B-O-L-L-A-N-D, branch.com slash trading secrets to save up to 20% and unlock free shipping. Exclusions apply. You gave us a good tip about ghosting and of something you can say to get your answer without even getting an answer? Do you have a tactic that you can use in a situation like this to know when it's time to walk away? Because no deal can be better than deal? Yeah. If they're totally self-centered, I'm walking away early. I mean, we really, really,

really teach people. But what do we do? Like us, you know to do that. Like, how do I, how does someone listening to this, like, when they're negotiating, how do they know to identify self-centered? How do they know when it's I think the hardest issue common individuals have myself included is when do you walk away like what is the straw what's the information how do I see it you could see it in two seconds it might take me two years first of all as soon as you start to recognize that it's there a friend of mine joe polish Joe's great guy I love him genius network he says it's not the red flags is the yellow flags that you ignored so look at the interaction with this person look at interactions and say stuff to yourself like more of the yellow flags that I

know it that I that I hoped would be okay but in my gut I knew it just felt wrong so that the gut is an incredible supercomputer and in your head the more hope-based decisions you make they fail and the fear-based decisions you make they fail so if you can take Hope and fear out, then rely on your gut. Here's how powerful your gut is. We're called The Biology of Belief. The author said, your conscious mind can process 40 bits of information per second. If you're a computer guy, if you write code, you know what a bit is.

Think of it as a single syllable, a yes or a no, a one or a zero, a bit. Simple. 40 per second. Subconscious mind, which feeds your gut per second is 20 million. Wow. 500,000 to one ratio. Wow. Which is why simply training yourself to be able to know the difference between your gut

or the hope fear-based centers up here, the more you work on listening to your gut. Sometimes I'll say to myself, I'll actually say, what's my gut telling me? Once you start listening to your gut, a supercomputer that works at fast is going to be pretty accurate. 500,000, you can't deny those numbers. talk numbers on this podcast. You talked a little bit about different emotions between a man and women, but also the fact that all humans have emotions. We're all humans. Do you ever, when you're reading situations negotiating, are you telling yourself what emotion means what? I've heard things like, I don't know if there's truth to it, but I've heard like rage, like when someone's

raging, it's actual fear. Like, is there translation of emotion to what it actually means? And do you read into that? Yeah, I'm always asking myself for what are the contributing factors? Rage, fear would be part of that. Highly threatened. Anger is a result of something. Rage is an intense form of anger, an injury of some sort. I've heard anger is your truth.

Is that just a saying, or is that reality in your experience? Like, if somebody's angry, they're going to tell me the truth? Is that it? Like if someone gets, suppose I got angry at you and you can see that I'm angry and I'm speaking, whatever, I'm speaking with anger, it's my truth. It might not be the reality,

but my emotion of anger is my truth. Yeah, if it's genuine anger, there's a lot of people that understand anger is a great way to manipulate others and so there'll be a lot of fake anger because short-term, it tends to be a very powerful way to get what you want. It's massively destructive long-term.

Okay. And that's why typically people that are, the great negotiators, don't use anger. And Donald Trump doesn't use anger. You sit down with them one-on-one. You don't have any evidence of people storming out of the room when they've sat down on one-on-one. Now, you'd say, ah, what about that argument with Zelisky and you all the office? I was just going to say that. first of all there's a fair amount of rock fighting going on in front of that and secondly they had people in a room that are trying to pour gasoline on whatever embers were there yeah do you think that was intentional like when he had the team kind of like making fun of what he was wearing or kind of throwing jabs him do you think that was an intentional negotiation play on his part no yeah no interesting I think people on his team already knew that he was ticked so they're expressing stuff that

They knew that bothered them. Interesting. Now, the media people that were there. Yeah. Are they doing their best to pour gasoline on fire? Absolutely. Yeah, of course. So that was intentional on immediate people's parts.

They, you know, they're like a couple of people who got upset with each other in the schoolyard. It's a knucklehead to stand around going, you could take, you believe what he said to you? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, the media's job is to be instigators. Sure. So if they sense anything at all, they're going to pour gasoline on the flame. And if something doesn't light, they'll probably throw a match on top of it just to make it light. But, and getting back to Trump Zelensky, they cut the deal of the Pope's funeral and their pictures of the two of them talking one-on-one, which surprised the vast majority of the media, who's not really paying attention to who Trump really is.

Holy cow, they had this dust up in the Oval Office and here Donald Trump is talking to a one-on-one. They look like they're having a great conversation. How could that be? And then a couple of days later, the rare minerals deal is signed between the U.S. and Ukraine. So publicly, if you start something with him, he's going to fire back of all the real dustups that I've seen, the other side started. If you, I got two segments I want to hit before you go, because there are times limited. One is negotiating pay towards end year and going through your performance reviews. That's for my listeners.

But one added on to this one is if you were negotiating with Donald Trump or a higher politician, of his let's just say like I don't like calling him a politician okay politician is not a term of admiration from my part okay okay okay let's say you're negotiating with president trump so i don't want to bring in like other people i just want to bring it only him what are based on things that you have seen from him what are strategies that you would use to

negotiate with him like two of arguably the best negotiators you know in united states you're going with don't trump like what are things that you're thinking about and doing if you're trying to negotiate with it. I would check and see what he's actually said, not what has been reported to me that he said. Interesting. I'd make sure I knew what he actually said. And this is a case across the world in any negotiation. One of the cases I worked on the Philippines, what the bad guy actually said and what was reported, he said were two vastly different things. Interesting. So that happens a lot even in these hostage situation. So you got to find out what the other side actually said.

Wow. And then I'm going to make some predictions on how they see things. I would make some predictions on how he sees things. And then I would want to have a direct in-person conversation. He doesn't like dealing with it through intermediaries. And nobody should because rarely do your intermediaries relate to you accurately what was actually said. That's why, like, in the movies, when there's hostage situations, the negotiator gets on,

it's always like, put me, we need to be direct. You need to be talking to the direct person. Okay, let's get into, I could talk to you for literally the whole entire day, and I know you've got limited time, but right now, year-end is coming up. Right. A lot of our listeners here are going into their bosses, and they're trying to get their year-end reviews, their strong performances, the big raises, they get nervous, they don't know what to do.

What are some ways that you would advise them to go to the table when it comes to negotiating an annual review, a potential increase in salary, et cetera? Two things. First of all, make sure that you can show that you were a bargain. So at a bare minimum, he's not going to resent the negotiation going in because he got a good deal on you. Now, secondly, then you want to project that out as to how you're going to be even more of a bargain in the future.

You know, I recently did a salary negotiation course live online, hadn't done it in several years. And two, three years ago, I focused on, yeah, how do you get more money? and this time I got a lot more people working for me and I remember when I sat down to construct this I thought what would I want my people to do so I'd be happy to pay them more and a lot of that is

even if you were a bargain for the past year what's coming to me as a boss I need a collaborative person that's aware that I got to get a return on investment and if you're even aware of that that makes you smarter than every one of your colleagues. That's so true. Because, you know, employee walks in, like, I was a great bargain, and I outworked everybody.

It's very self-centered, and you're saying the same thing everybody else is saying. But the minute you begin to understand that you need to be continuing return on investment and how, now you're solving a whole bunch of problems for your boss. some really enlightened short-term conversations that I've been working on my people with on any given day I want you to be aware of how you're moving the needle most people are oblivious of that

now that's not easy but an employee that understands how they're moving the needle is 10 times more valuable than somebody who's completely oblivious to their actions impact on a company. If you're aware of how you're moving the needle, I'm already looking at you as to promote. You're immediately more valuable to me.

And so year in, yeah, okay, absolutely want to be able to show, first of all, why should I pay you more money for the same amount of work? Right. Well, the only reason is if you were bargain to start with. Ah, full circle. So if you were a bargain to start with, and I probably got a deal on you last year. Yep.

And I could probably still afford to pay you more because that's not going to push me into the red. You're still, me and you, you're still in the black. Interesting. So if you're a bar going to start with, all right, now I'm open to the conversation. Okay, I got it. Now, if you, then, but then,

if we're talking about the future and you're aware of your impact, then the chances of me teaching you to how to have a greater impact make you worth the investment. Interesting. All right. There you go. If you're back home getting ready for your year-end review, that was a textbook masterclass of what to do.

Let's do this with your trading secrets. We've got to wrap with your trading secret. So it's special to your experience. Can't learn it from a professor. It can only learn from you. Well, you are a professor. So it's the Chris Foss trading secret. I would love if the trading secret was around some of the biggest mistakes.

that you see people make in negotiations. Biggest no-noes. But whatever trading secret you want to leave us with will work. Yeah, just be willing to articulate what your guts telling you the other person is thinking and think about the future. And just before I walked on the door, a gentleman was telling me this great negotiation he had,

leaving one job going to the next. And he wanted to preserve the relationship with the previous employer. And he said, I get some stuff. I'm afraid to talk to you about, and I'm afraid that when I tell you this, in the future, we won't be friends. And now they have a continuing and ongoing relationship where he's leaving his old job. His old employer was so impressed with the emotional intelligence of that approach when they found out he was leaving, instantly realized this is a relationship going to be valuable

for the future. Anybody this smart to anticipate the negative impact and focus on a long-term relationship, you know, the guts, you know, whether the boss realized that they're not consciously, but the guts saying this person with this much emotional intelligence is somebody I want to have in my business and professional life for as long as possible because they're always bringing me good stuff. I love it. I love it. And that's part of the conversations we talked earlier with accusation on it and even relationships coming to the forefront from the onset. So, Chris, I could talk to you all day. Unfortunately, we got a wrap. That was an unbelievable episode for everyone. Stay tuned to the recap. We're going to go over some more tricks in trade from

Chris Voss, all from his book. He's got some magic wand phrases. I'll give you those too. So stay tuned to the recap. But Chris, where can everyone find everything you have going on? All right. So black swan-l-t-d-com. B-L-A-C-S-W-A-N-L-T-D dot com's a website. Now, if it's your first time there, you're going to get an invitation. to join the Black Sworn negotiation community, which is free. It's the best place to practice your skills. You join a community that's free. You can start preparing to come to our summit in Dallas in the spring,

which is a big ticket item. Now, right now, the return on investment might be good enough for you so that you'll drop up $4,000 a change to be with us for two days. If that's too much to swallow right now, and for some people it is, Join the community, start improving your skills, get yourself to the point where $4,000 is nothing compared to the amount of money you're making by making better deals. I love it. So we're going to bring you along one way or the other. I love it.

I love it. That's the best got to learn from, too. Over 150 international hostage cases negotiated by the former FBI hostage negotiator himself. Chris, thank you so much for being on this episode, Trading Secrets. pleasure to be here thanks for having me back it is so good to have you back ding ding ding we are closing in the episode with chris voss of course the curious canadian and curiosity did come up in this episode with a whole lot of very important subjects to every single person listening and of course to both you and i david you're back on the

ones and twos what'd you think about this episode i mean chris voss he he's a top 10 episode all time for a reason i wouldn't be surprised if this falls right in that category i got to couple things that are just running through my mind when it comes to Chris Voss. One, if you ever wanted to kick me into the curb and you just did a Chris Voss and Jason Tardick series, I would, I would be the number one listener. I would not be a hater to that. I would be a number one listener because I just think it's the ultimate takeaways. It's the ultimate advice.

And I do see you in those interviews half in like a master class, half like on his level. Like you totally apply a lot of these things in your life. And then half is like a therapy session when you're, he's like talking about these things and you're reflecting on situations. You're like, hmm, I could see how that could be true. But overall, he's just the best. I usually listen to episodes and I'm taking notes on like 1.3, 1.5x. I listen to this so I could obtain everything in normal speed.

He's probably one of the slower talkers that we have for a reason. And this episode went by the quick as I couldn't believe that 53 minutes was up the fastest, fastest that it was despite him talking slow and me watching a normal speed. That goes to the capitivity that he. has that you guys have in your in your interview process and your engagement and relationship to each other so overall as you could tell huge huge fan I love everything about Chris Foss and what he brings to the table yeah my it's so funny you said that because in the interview like this there are times that I'm asking questions

for the listening audience and there's certainly times I'm asking questions for myself because I have an expert like no other day in front of me something about his voice is just so calming David I a little behind the scene which is why I love recaps. We filmed this the Monday after the Buffalo Bills beat the Baltimore Ravens with like, you know, two seconds left. I was there. So I was making, I made sure that I didn't overconsume that night. But we didn't get home to like, I don't know, one o'clock and probably didn't fall asleep to like 2.30 and I had a 6 a.m. flight and then my flight was delayed.

So I was late coming to the podcast studio And you don't want to be late for Chris Foss And I walked in and I'm like, I am so sorry He's like, hey, and he had his like voice He's like, congratulations on the bills No worries, I have a time block here I'm just happy to be here And like he did that and like dude

I wish I had like you know how the golfers wear the whoop Where you can see their beats per minute When they're standing over a put in front of a crowd I wish I had my whoop on Because I probably came into the studio like 143 beats per minute and the second he talked to me in that voice and he knew what he was doing right he saw someone who like felt bad who was running late who was frantic and he's like i'm to calm this situation down and instantly when he said that everything in my body dropped i was like

thank you i'm really excited about this and like it's amazing a guy's just amazing he's the ultimate like it's not how you what you say it's how you say it like that's him in a nutshell and it's yeah it's not the message, it's the message. And the other. Like that's, that is, that's like, dude, that's life. Yeah, it is. Like, it's not the message 95% of the time. It's true, it's truly the delivery and the message.

And it's also like realizing that no matter what you're talking about, there is a correlation to something that is super relatable and usually very simple and usually like pretty black and white. Like he takes his tactics that he's talked about, that he's done with FBI with hoshen negotiations that he's talked about the world leaders doing and then he's also relating it to like being ghosted on a date he's also relating it to like um relationships he's also relating it to work advice and negotiations and i just think like some of the things that we could get into some of the quotes or stories or relatabilities that he has like everything from story hijacking

to talking about getting ghosted to you know not identifying the yellow flags and and always looking at the red flags and just a lot of those things. I mean, to me, it's incredible how he can speak and everyone listening. And that's why these episodes do so well. Everyone listening is like, holy shit, I feel that or have I experienced that. I think to your point, he gives us the sophisticated reasoning and proof that like using your logic as opposed to just or your emotions will serve you well. If you think about like intuitive behavior or logical behavior, it makes sense that when you're mad at someone or you're frustrated at someone and you want to scream and yell, it makes sense that you're not going to get the best result when you do that.

It's just not easy to do it. It makes a lot of sense when someone story hijacks that if you give that a person the ability to the story hijack, you're actually giving them information. that you're listening and then they'll get your point across. But emotions tell us when someone's story hijacks, it's disrespectful, it's ego, I need to take back over, I need to fight power with power. And everything he says makes such logical sense, and there's proof to it. It's just that as humans, we don't know how to oftentimes regulate the logic and emotions, and then the emotions take over, and as a result of that, what we're trying to achieve in

human interaction doesn't happen. 100% and did you at all feel while he was giving some of these examples like oh shit I do that or I'm sure you've we've all we all listen to this you're like oh I've experienced that right I've experienced beating goes where you're like oh shit I I've done that because I did and I can give you a couple examples in my world where I'm like all right this makes sense I when he was talking about a lot of these stories I've seen both sides of it right like I've seen where it's been done to me and where I've done it as well tell me about your experience I just think like ghosting is such a good one too

and in my world of work I think about recruiting all the time like I'm recruiting players to come play for my program I have like texts in my inbox right now so the notifications up is drive me crazy and it's just this family that really wants to come play for me and I know that we can't take them and I'm just like it's in my inbox

because I don't I'm trying to avoid the confrontation obviously if I wanted the kid I'd be doing everything you know to get him I'd be all over him It's like, though, like, he's just not that into you movie. It's like, you will know right away if he's into it, but like, here I am ghosting this poor kid because I know that I'm going to be able to deliver bad news and here I am doing it. And then also like story hijacking, I'm, as we all know, sometimes a little animated or a little like, not, I don't want to say intense, but like I'm, I'm energetic and sometimes I feel like I definitely try and make sure that my experience gets across when a topic is being done. and maybe I need to have a little more patience and listen because I will listen after the fact,

but this was one for me. And one thing that I've noticed that I've been doing lately that I'm not proud of because I think I get caught up in the business of life is I'm starting to notice a lot more when I'm talking to someone about a conversation in business and life. And they take the time to be like, by the way, how's the family?

How's everything? How's kids? How's mom and dad? And I'm like, good, great. And then like conversation ends. And I'm like, I didn't even ask the return that question or I didn't even think of it first. And I know how great.

that feels. And every time I'm like, I'm like, oh, what a great person for asking me that. And I feel like I'm not doing that as much lately. And it's something that I want to get better at. So that was a really run on for me. But those are my experiences and how this really hit me. Those are, I mean, those are great. And I think this is where like you touch into this therapy session, right? Because in therapy, a lot of the stuff you learn is that to one of the first steps to like improving yourself and growing is recognizing. Right. So to like be self-aware to recognize like, oh, I need to start returning those questions is like such a sign of growth, which is incredible.

For me, one of the biggest ones, the two biggest ones that, like, just stick with me. There's three, actually. One is the curiosities. I have noticed when someone, let's say someone hits me with something hard or someone attacks me or someone chirps me, but it's like below the belt. Like, it's not like a fun and games thing. When I stop and pause and just get curious, me like, when you said that, like, what did you mean by that? Like, what did you mean by that?

I had this actually happened this past summer. Someone I didn't expect said to me at a bar when they were drunk, your content lately has been cringe. And I was, instead of just like chirping back, because, oh, I could have. I was just like, tell me, like, I'm open to feedback. Tell me more. Like, what is it, you know? And they're like, come on, Jason. I was like, no, I'm asking you.

Like, you have a forum now. Like, tell me. And then they're like, all your shirt. pictures like we get it we understand you look good like like she's like if you're in a relationship it would be fine but like you're single it's like you're just thirsty with your shirt pictures off and i'm like okay thank you and weirdly enough just in that response i got a lot of information right i that that that we know i don't even get but like i got a lot of information and that from a curiosity and so i think asking questions allows you to get clarity as to what someone's true

like foundation is for saying things, is it internal resentment? Is it external longing? And what it actually means to you? So that's one. The second one is the intuition versus like your brain power, like just trusting your intuition. I always feel like my intuition's paying on. And then I sometimes let that critical thinking override it and almost always it's wrong. And then the last one was the position of dealing with a narcissist. You know, I couldn't agree more with him. I've been in that position. There is no reciprocated empathy. There is no negotiation. There is no being heard. You will constantly be caught in the web until you cut the web off and move in another direction. There is no other solution if you're actually dealing with a narcissist. Yeah. And a lot of the things

building off a couple of those like the narcissist talk. He said the bad deals are blocking the people with the good deals. Same with relationships. Right. The bad relationships are actually blocking the way the good relationships. It's just, you know, being able to recognize those things. And he was right. Like a lot of people stay in relationships or business partners for so long because they're scared of the darkness, the loneliness. They're scared of, you know, the empty void that is looming, which is terrifying.

So that's one. But like you said, trusting your gut, that's the, if there's a clip, if there's a takeaway, if there's a stat that blew my mind is that the conscious mind processes 40 bits of info per second and your subconscious mind, which feeds your gut processes. is 20 million info perspective. And it's just the old adage, it's like trust your gut. It's like, I wish now it's like now hearing that, it's like I will because I always want to, but it's like, oh, trust your gut.

Like you have this brain that's just like a supercomputer. It's like, no, trust your brain. Put it to thought. Run the sequences. Like it's like, no. It's like trust your gut because that is your intuition and that is usually telling you. Like you said, it's the gut's the thing that recognizes the yellow flags and your brain. is the thing that talks you out of the yellow flags that makes you pretend they could believe

it's okay because your brain's scared of computing all these other things. God's like, no, come on now. Let's figure this out. But that beat of info is insane. And I think you might have referenced it right there. If you didn't, you referenced it when you and I were preparing for this. But it was his quote about no deal is better than a bad deal. And that one just lands with me.

And I want this, I want everyone to really think long and hard about this one because in sales and business development and in life, people will use. time expirations to create urgency so that you make a decision. And so I would highly suggest everyone that if you feel like you're under the gun, because someone's putting you under the gun to make any form of decision, don't forget that quote that no deal is better than a bad deal. And usually those decisions you're making with the time against your back are positions that might put you in a spot to make a decision.

That's a bad deal. 100%. And the last kind of my last like takeaway from a topic you guys, talked about was how he talked about how resilient human beings are if efficiently warned and this goes back to like it's not what you say about how you say this way it's like you're you're gonna hate me for this this might break you heart like you might think I'm a total asshole and then three seconds he's like three seconds is the key seven seconds is like full panic sets in but he's like take a pause and

then say what the bad news is and then usually the bad news is like a relief because it's usually not that bad right he used the example of like you might think I'm an asshole you might hate me for this and the person's like oh my god you cheated on me and maybe it's like I forgot to take the garbage out you know what I mean it's like something that if you just said you forgot to take the garbage out it's like yeah I forgot to take the jarb's like no it's like that's just a perfect example of that so just did those little tactics I mean it's so true and he's oh man he's just so calming in the most like scary way for what he's capable of in terms of like who he negotiates with and all those things but he makes it make perfect sense and that was

when I was like wow he's so right on that yeah there's so much there's so much choice that one was a really good one i i'll be honest with you that's what we do in the recap i've i've used that one before knowing it was like actually yeah and where i fucked up was i held too long i was like no you're really gonna be upset and it was like and the person after was like that was nothing but we know what i'm upset about now the torture you just put me to i'm like oh shit and you and you and you probably did it over texting and then you actually ghosted them by mistake for like three hours and it's like You've tripled down on all the things we just learned and backfired.

You're actually doing it right. You're actually just doing it really wrong. Yeah, exactly. And then I do think like there's, and what he said is there should be a warning label with all this, right? Yeah. The warning label is like, this should be used to put you and your position and your partners and your business and your life in a better spot, not as forms of manipulation.

I do think it's very careful or it's very important that like you treat this stuff carefully, especially the people that you're like, you know, working with this stuff on. 100% you know and then he gives the tactical advice of negotiations and and you know be aware of how you move the needle and ask how you can make an even bigger impact that leads to negotiations at this time of year for more money all these things are great you know another episode building off katelyn collins episode you know he touched a little bit on on you know i wouldn't say politics but i'd say behavior behind the scenes in in negotiation tactics with world leaders i just think the last two episodes we've really elevated i would say um maybe some of our conversation some of our content and some of our perspectives to maybe a wider range of listeners. It's really exciting. I think we'll always be at our core with, you know, some pop culture stuff. But, man, I got to say some of these episodes, they're way more stimulating. And that's no knock on the other guests because I think some of the other guests are maybe more entertaining.

But again, we're doing something. We're doing something here, Jason. Yeah, we are doing something here. If you haven't, what I would tell you is go check out his books. Never split the difference. empathy and uncertainty in business, the full fee agent in his podcast, many more. Go check out Chris Voss's stuff. And David, you hit the nail on the head.

We are doing something here. We got some trending topics, some very relevant topics, and some very stimulating guests on. I agree with you. Entertainment and pop culture is still prevalent to this podcast. But I also think growing in the spaces that we're starting to touch on from all angles is important. and we're seeing that our listeners are very much enjoying it. So, you know, Caitlin Collins to Chris Voss, we are next week taking a dip back into some light laughter,

but also some really interesting business with Harry Jousy. But I could tell you, as we continue to book our guests, we'll listen to your feedback in the comments. Give us five stars and let us know, but we will definitely keep in mind the success of both of these episodes, Caitlin Collins and Chris Voss. So David, anything before we wrap? no just picturing chris voss and harry jowsy in a room having like a negotiation

or like that would be the funniest thing like i almost need that as an episode so he would have them absolutely sweating oh my god i would like oh my god imagine if we could pick we should do this like we pick ten of our guests to be in one day even if it was like harry jousy katelyn collins and chris voss harry would start like hitting on katelyn chris would start like twisting them but like katelyn would like bury harry like it would be critic we should just do our own version of like traders, but trading secret style. Honestly. Traders.

I think we're on to something here. It could be. The wide range of guests we have had on from a Todd Graves, 20 billion plus from chicken tenders to Chris Voss, Caitlin Collins, and now we got Harry Jousy next week. So this has been a great episode, David. Thank you for joining me in the recap. And thank you for tuning into another episode of Trading Secrets, one you couldn't afford to miss. Making that dream.

Making that money, money, money, pay on me. Making that money, living that dream. Thank you.