Trading Secrets - 28: Payne Lindsey on How He Turned Solving Murders Into Million$

Episode Date: November 22, 2021

This week we dive into the true crime podcast landscape with ‘Up and Vanished’’s Payne Lindsey. A hit podcast that has turned long cold case murders into closed cases. From an empty bank account and $100 investment, Payne turned this hit podcast in a multi-million dollar revenue generator.  From dealing with imposter syndrome to almost going back to a desk job, Payne divulges all. Does solving a real life crime sell? How did he turn solving murder into millions and a monster business?It’s another episode you can’t afford to miss.  For All Access Content - join our networking group for less than 30 cents a day! manscaped.com code SECRETS for 20% off + free shipping getcerebral.com/tradingsecrets for 65% off your first month Truebill.com/secrets to save thousands a year drinktrade.com/secrets promo code SECRETS for your first bag free + $5 off your bundle Host: Jason Tartick Voice of Viewer: David Arduin Executive Producer: Evan Sahr Produced by Dear Media.

The following podcast is a Dear Media production. Welcome back to another episode of Trading Secrets. Today we are diving into the world of true crime. We'll be uncovering the mysteries tied to the business side of the industry. To help us do that, we're joined with special guests, Payne Lindsay, who is, is leading a very successful career as a host and co-creator of True Crime Podcast's biggest hits, Up and Vanish and Atlanta Monster, and the success has been so strong that Up and Vanish podcast, you don't hear this often, podcast, just soon after turned into a television series.

He's also the founder of Tender TV and his achievements and accolades for his work. It's just next level. Thank you so much for coming on to Trading Secrets today, Payne. We appreciate it. Thanks, man. I appreciate it. Good stuff. Well, we can, and we're going to get into all the success you've had because it's been fun to watch and fun to listen to. I'm a fan of the show. But before we do that, I want to talk about some of your struggles. So my understanding is that, and tell me if this is right or wrong, but that at 23, your dad cut you off. And at some point during your recording of Up and Vanished, you were actually like broke. And so the reason I want to dive into this is because so many people in life, and I think you've done this differently, are just so focused on, all right, I got to have my 9 to 5. I got to have security. I got to have cash position before I do it. And based on all the research I've done, you didn't have any of that and you continue to pursue your passion. So like, how broke are we talking here?

I mean, to me, broke is like having only $10 or something, or not even that, you know, or selling my Xbox so I can, you know, buy Wendy's. You know, that's the point you were at. Oh, definitely. I've been that broke before. I mean, it was mostly my own fault. I don't think I was, I think it's hard when you have very little money to be good at money. I wasn't disciplined enough at the time. And I was, honestly, I was, I was more concerned about getting out of this struggle. And I, you know, like, what is, what do I need to do to get to the next level? Not just making it a little bit more at my job, but like, what can I do to really blow this shit up?

And that was always my obsession, you know, growing up is trying to be something big, you know? Yeah. And so, but at this point, so you're, you're just affording Wendy's. In any part of your brain, like, are you thinking, I need to just like, I'll get a job, I'll make a couple bucks, and then when I get home, I can do all this, my passion project. Like, did that ever cross your mind or no? So the deal was, like, you know, I went to college. I went to a few different, like, community colleges around Atlanta. I was never good at school.

I didn't really like school. It honestly only kind of fueled me more to want to. do my own thing creatively. And so, you know, my dad had saved up some money for me to go to college. I eventually kind of just blew through that. And then I think I ended up failing one of my classes for the first time. And my dad was like, this is when I was 23. And he's like, look, you're done. I'm not paying any more for this. And so I ended up actually never going back to college. At the time, I was doing music and I was doing music videos. And so I was trying to get that off the ground. I was working as a server at a restaurant. And when I was 24,

I was just so burnt out on doing that that I was like, you know what? I'm just going to quit this job and I'm going to go full time into basically making my own business as a director and see where it goes. But I felt like I was being held back by having to go to this job every day

and I just wasn't good at juggling the two. And so I kind of really just threw myself out there. It wasn't easy after that. I definitely hit some dark moments and was extremely broke. But to be honest, that time period between 24 and when I made up and vanished really just completely hardened to me and made me, you know, just that much hungrier to not blow an opportunity if I ever get one.

And that's what I try to do. That's, I think it's really cool. And I think, you know, one of the things is we had Ryan Sirhan for a million dollar listing on. And so what's interesting about his story is that he said under no circumstances am I doing anything after college but pursuing my passion. So he moved to New York and he wanted to be an actor and model. And so he'd make a couple hundred bucks, a couple hundred bucks. And it got to a point after two years where he was just completely broke. And he's like, I got to do something else. And that's when he transitioned into real estate, which allowed him to transition into acting and

reality TV and doing what he inevitably wanted. I'm curious from your standpoint, because up and vanished, again, what I read and you tell me when I'm wrong, in the middle of recording this, you're actually broke. You have no money. Unlike Ryan, what you did is said, I don't give a shit. I'm just going to keep pushing through. So any recommendations for anyone that is out there that might be at that point where they're becoming financially unstable and need the motivation to push through or someone who is tied in the 9 to 5 who wants to do something else but might need to take a greater risk at knowing like you're never going to achieve it unless you go for it. Well, what's funny is when I made up and vanished, I think it was episode five or six had come out at that

point. So it been out for about a month and a half or so. And it was getting really popular. It was hitting the millions of downloads, but I hadn't done any advertising really on it yet. That was kind of just starting to come through. And it wasn't really that much money. And honestly, when I made the podcast, I never really looked at it as a way to make money anyways. To me, it was just going to be some sort of stepping stone to help me get to, you know, making a TV show or a film documentary about this case. But about that time, episode five or six, I was like, you know, I need to just go apply for a real regular person job. And so I found this job. It was like a video editing job at Georgia Tech. I'm not even exactly sure what it was,

but I felt like I was extremely overqualified for it. And I went there and I applied and interviewed. Then they emailed me back, like a week or two later. Instead, I didn't get the job. And I was like, I was super pissed. I think I responded back. I was like, who you're looking for, J.J. Abrams? And I was just really kind of like not feeling good about it. And it was almost like exactly at that point when I was turned down. I like was ready to throw in the towel and do the regular nine to five thing. And I got denied. And then my podcast started taking off big time and was making way more money than I could have ever made doing that stupid job. And I just find it weird that like I was turned down. And then it was almost like magically at that same moment, the tides were

shifting. And so here I am. And so once I started working, I was like, man, I'm going to ride this bullet until I can't anymore. I'm never going back. Yeah, it's telling. I mean, writing was on the wall and you kept it going and it's been so fun to watch your journey. Someone might be hearing this though, and saying, wait, Jason, you're telling me that guy is broke and then he's still podcasting and, like, putting this unbelievable series together that blew up. What are the costs? Like, how much was he spending on this? So for anyone that just doesn't know much about the podcast industry or specifically maybe your journey to success, how much did you have to invest in the whole process to get this podcast recorded up and edited?

I mean, the reason I chose to make a podcast, among other things, was, because I could do it so cheaply, you know, and I already knew how to edit video. And so I was actually the entire first season up and vanished, I just edited all the audio in Adobe Premiere, which is a video editing program. And so I had some of the skills to sort of navigate this. And I knew that it wouldn't cost too much money to do it. The first real investment we ever made, back when I first linked with my now business partner named Donald Albright, he came along during season one.

and we were trying to make a company out of this. And I said, we need to buy an advertisement for Up and Vanished on this other podcast that was way more popular than mine. It was a, it's called Breakdowns by the AJC. It was about a Georgia case. And I was like, hey, I think these same listeners would probably want to listen to Up and Vanished because it's also a Georgia case and it's a true crime show. And so I think we paid them like $3,000 for a advertisement.

And then about that same time, Apple features us, features in their new and noteworthy. And so, like, those things kind of combined and we shot up the charts. I actually learned later that at the time, Donald, like, maxed out one of his credit cards to do that. I didn't even really know that. But, yeah, so it's just like that really was the only real initial investment. And then once we started making money, I was like, okay, let's be a little bit more legit. Let's get an office and, you know, a workspace where I can kind of like do this. and then eventually we grew to the point

where we needed employees, so. But before all that, so obviously spend 3K and it's great advertising, money well spent, you put it out of credit card, I love it, going all in, but I think people would be surprised by this,

and that's why I keep drilling down. How many dollars do you think you invested in creating up and vanish before you spent money on advertising? I mean, it's like $100? I mean, like, I don't know. Like, I mean, nothing, you know? Like, it really came down to just,

the work that I was doing. You know, that was, it didn't require a huge investment, you know, like the show was just me and whatever, whatever work I was going to put into it, you know, and that, that's the thing. You know, I didn't, I made the opportunity for myself just by not having a real job and putting all my time and effort into this thing in hopes that it would become something special. And I didn't really even know what that was. And that should be inspiration. Anyone that is listening, right?

This was a creative idea from paying cost them less than $100. In millions and millions and millions and millions and millions of downloads, we are talking about 0.0000001% of podcasts in the world. Top, you know, and $100 a mic and a creative idea. I can't leave this segue without asking you, what generated the idea? Were you watching like a documentary on Netflix?

Netflix or something like, because you were never into that. Weren't you into music video making? Yeah, I mean, I was into the music videos only because it was just a job, you know? Like as a kid, I dreamed of being a filmmaker, you know, making movies and writing my own scripts and doing that whole thing. But I was at a point where I was just burnt out on doing the music videos and I was at my apartment. I had just binged making a murderer.

I just binged the jinx. And I was like, man, you know, I've always loved these kinds of shows. I could tell a story like this. how would I go about doing that? And so I just started looking for cases. And I stumbled upon Tara Grinstead's case and it was in my home state and it was accessible.

And I literally just picked up the phone and started calling people. And I had no clue what would happen next. That is just so, so badass. So like I'm making a murder or something like that. Obviously that inspires you. It went off on Netflix.

How much money do you think like a creator of a show, like, I'm making a murder. Like, they come up with the narrative, the creative, and that it takes off the way it does. Like, is Netflix buying that from them, or is there, like, a split share? I just have no idea about the industry. I'm curious how that works. Every single deal is going to be different.

I think the rule of thumb that I've sort of learned thus far is that unscripted TV, like a docu-series or something, you make the least amount of money on those because the budgets don't have to be as high. but if you're a really sought-after, you know, true crime, you know, documentarian, then, you know, they're going to pay you to do it. And, you know, whether that's your executive producer fee being really high, directing, all those kind of things. But from what I've learned through my agents is that the real money is inscripted TV,

but it's full of, you know, a million gatekeepers and it's hard to knock that door down. But, you know, we're, I'm trying to do it. as we speak. And I think that eventually, you know, something will crack. But it just depends. You know, some of those guys make next to nothing. Some of those guys make millions of dollars. And it just depends on your deal and who you are, to be honest. Yeah. If I'm a betting man, I'm going to bet that you're going to find a way to knock those walls down. But you are right. I actually, Caitlin and I were talking about this last night without getting into some of the specifics, but some of the executives at the top of these major

networks. Yeah. It is absolutely wild that the power they carry with the decisions they make, right? Like, there are a lot of relationship-based decisions that are made. And those people that are put in certain places, their careers, their lives, everything can change overnight. It's wild how much they hold, and there's a lot of layers to those. But speaking about layers, college is a lot of the layers. And you talked a little bit about the fact, like, you went to school, you failed the one class,

you know, your dad saved up some money, burned through it. One thing, if you look at creative directors or filmmakers, I mean, some of them have crazy degrees in filmmaking and editing, especially now, right? You're seeing like TikTok, social media, this is a full-on career. Like the things people are doing incredible is someone who's done it successfully. What would your advice be to someone who has an interest in like film or editorials or editing? Like, do you think like college requirements are necessary or there are certain classes or things you would recommend for someone that might want to pursue this career? I think it entirely depends on who you are. I got, you know, most of my first

are in the film industry, working on set, DPs, assistant camera, that kind of stuff. And, you know, a lot of them did go to school. Some of them went to full sale, USC, you know, nice film schools. Most of them would tell you that they didn't really need it. But I also know people, I think if you're a school kind of person, you know, I think that a lot of people are scared to take a leap and take a risk. And so in some ways, going to school and getting that degree, you know, will put you into a network of people.

And, you know, for the right kind of person, if you are a school person, then that could be your entry point to this entire landscape. But if you're not and you're a go-getter and you want to do it on your own, then I think you should at least try it because the most special shit ever made is from stuff like that. Like no one's going to, you're not going to come out of school with a film degree and some guys seem like, oh, great, you know, now here's your opportunity to make your show. it's never going to happen like that. They want to see your work.

So to me, like, whatever it takes to get better at your craft and to, you know, enter a network of people who can help get your stuff off the ground and, you know, and collaborate with the right people. And if that means school, then do it. If not, then just start making your own shit as soon as possible. Right. Because you're going to fail a few times.

Right. And it sounds like so where you're saying is you got to customize the approach that works for you. School will give you the resources to do it. But whether you have those resources or not, if you don't have the creative ingenuity or the thoughts and the execution on those thoughts, school and classes, it's relatively pointless. Yeah, absolutely.

Okay. Now, so less than 100 bucks to start the podcast, I also read that you wanted to originally do a film of this, not a podcast. So, but you said that, and again, this article I was reading said that you said that the costs of that were too high. So we know you did it with less than 100 bucks in a microphone and an idea. what would it have cost? What are the costs if you wanted to actually go about creating the film on it?

And for someone that doesn't have a damn clue, what is that even process? Like, how do you even, I want to make a movie? How does that even start? I mean, I think at the times, I mean, I had done a Kickstarter before for a short film that I did. I think I raised like $15,000. And we went around the country and shot this short little doc. It was fun. It was cool.

And so I had done that before. And I'd also worked with some pretty decent music video budgets and stuff and commercial budgets. And so I didn't want to just completely bootstrap it and ask for money again from people. You know, I was probably just seeking out like $50 to $100,000 or something in my head. I didn't know what the number was, but I knew that it was unattainable to like have the right amount of money to do this the way that I'd want to do it because I know what it takes to make this. Now, I could have done it for as cheap as possible, you know, maybe better than that. than someone else could have, but it would have still required money. And so I just didn't want to do that.

And I only made a podcast because I listened to Serial and I was like, man, this is really good. If I can make a popular podcast, I bet you I can meet the right people who could help me get any sort of TV show or documentary off the ground. And so that's what I did. I didn't know that podcasts would be a business I was a part of years later. ever fathomed that. Yeah, I mean, that is that is so cool from film to podcasting. You go through all the process and then obviously end down the podcasting route. One of the things I'll never forget like in your podcast is some of the times I would say, I'll say it that you kind of felt as though others were questioning your credibility or people within the community are like, who the

fuck is this guy trying to stir stuff up? Or at sometimes like I remember like your tone in some of those podcasts, you questioned your own credibility. Like, what am I doing? Like, am I even doing this right? Like, why am I out here? The uphill battle, especially in a world today where so many people are set on your titles and your education and what your work history is, you don't get, I hate to put words in my mouth, but from what I'm gathering, you really didn't know shit about true crime. And here you are breaking into an unsolved case and solving it. So what kind of like advice do you have for people that feel like they have imposter syndrome they don't belong where they are they want to take a shot but they don't know shit about it like how did you actually

strategically get it done i mean even now looking you know i could look back and be like you know well i have done this you know some people out there think i do a really good job but i still i still have to deal with the imposter syndrome sometimes and i think that every way that i end up getting over it is just by not listening to it anymore Just kind of being like, you know what? Like, I could sit here and like dwell all day, but I should be putting that same time and energy back into making this shit great.

And I think that I somehow, matter what mental process I end up going through and whatever I'm making or doing, I always end up back there where like I'm going to take out all my frustration or insecurity and just put it into my work. And so far for me, that's worked. And I think that there's probably other creatives out there

who probably feel similarly. but to me it's just like that little voice you know don't listen to it you know there's there's times where you need to kind of check yourself and see what you're doing and where you're going but honestly most most of these things don't matter and like for me I've been my voice own worst enemy since day one and so I've just learned to kind of tune that little voice out and tunnel vision and just try to make great great work and find ways to stay inspired to do that because that is also a thing, you know, staying motivated to make something great again.

You know, where is that supposed to come from? And years ago, I would have never even thought I could pull off up and vanish season one. So like, where am I drawing the motivation from in season three, five years later, to do that again and do it better? It's like, you know, that's, you know, years ago, I probably wouldn't have been able to do that. But you just find new ways to adapt and evolve.

And it's never ending. It's always a learning process. every time I start a new podcast I feel like I'm learning to ride a bike again and then I get the hang of it and then I'm like okay yeah we're back we're doing it because something's such a second nature now you know but yeah I got this

we're gonna crack another damn case we're gonna put more people doing it we got this I love it and a lot of those people that are actually chirping or that are sending credibility issues your way or anyone's way is listening to this it's usually the people that kind of said to themselves damn I wish I could have done that

and the only way for them to justify in their head why they didn't is to criticize those are. So I think it's cool that you push through that and you've achieved what you have. I want to talk about the success of Up and Vanished. So, you know, I think a lot of people were shocked by that. They're seeing the numbers blowing up, number one, millions of downloads. I saw number 18 on the overall charts.

I mean, a lot of numbers out there with the success. Before I get into some of the metrics of the success, I'm wondering how, I know you said it was in your hometown, but how did you find Tara's case? Like, there are so many true crime podcasts out there. Where do you even, like, find open cases or where do you even start looking? To be honest, I didn't really even know. I just started Googling stuff.

And I think I eventually ended up on the Georgia Bureau of Investigations website. And they had, like, a top 10 unsolved cases in Georgia. And this was a pretty famous case, at least down here. I mean, they'd done Dateline and stuff on it over the year. So it had been in the media. And I just, I was looking for a case that. I felt just naturally drawn to in whatever way. And also something that

I felt like was a big story that was worth me telling over several episodes. And so I was just going with my gut. And I still do that to this day. You know, I don't really, I don't really overthink shit because I don't, I can't.

You know, and I think that I've just learned to just go with my gut. And that's what I did there. And, you know, I started looking into that case. And then I made a post on some, on web, sluice, I think. And then that's when this forensic psychologist who worked her case reached out to me. And actually I thought it was a cop at first. I was like, oh, shit. I should not have done this. I was like, this is not good. Then turns out he wanted to talk to anybody about this case.

And I was there. And so I just started recording our phone calls. And he kind of helped walk me through it. And so I felt like I had gained access to unique information that no one else had. And so I just took that and ran with it. All right. Another, because as you're telling this story, my brain's going right to the podcast, I'm thinking through some of the episodes. Another like wild action from you that I think people could take away as they're trying to sell their businesses. They're trying to network and pursue their career. People are afraid to like ask people for things and they're afraid to knock on doors. And you've knocked on what seems to be some of the wildest doors. I mean, you were knocking on the doors of people that had suggested people had done the crime. who didn't. You knocked on relatives' doors of people that were being accused of it. You were knocking on the victims like parents' doors to get their information. Tell me about that, were you nervous doing that? How did you overcome those nerves? What are things you've done to be able to knock on the doors of places that you know will help achieve your overall mission? I think a lot of it

comes from wanting to live up to what I'm saying that I'm going to do. You know, if I'm, I may be nervous about knocking on this person's door, but if I'm not willing to do that, then I shouldn't be doing this and hyping you up on my investigation. You know, so there's a little bit of, I feel like it's kind of my responsibility now. But, you know, I still get nervous. I have learned that I think that, you know, in some of the more dangerous situations, I think nine times out of 10, you know, nothing's going to happen. There is that one percent chance. But, um, I've just gotten better at kind of de-escalating situations. And, you know, most people want to talk to you. They may be a little resistant at first, but, you know, I've just kind of learned how to be vulnerable with them, too, in hopes that they're willing to be vulnerable with me. And so every time, it's always a little nerve-wracking.

And I will even say, even in this season, some of the stuff hasn't come out yet. But I was probably the most nervous I've ever been because I knew that this person was not good. good. And of the times where shit could go wrong, it might be this one. And I just went in there and just, you know, made it happen. It's kind of an outer body experience sometimes. I wasn't really even nervous. But when I got back to the car and we were driving back to the hotel, that's when I was like, holy shit, that was crazy, you know? But like in the moment, I was just like,

stone cold, let's do this. Wow. My curiosities are driving me. And I don't know if you could either tease it without giving it away and if you would be giving it away if you could think about a previous experience but can you think about one experience that your nerves or you know like danger red flags were going off absolutely

like in a wild way and what the end result ended up being from it? Yeah I mean I can talk about one of the things that happened already in season three there was a suspect named Sam who lives out in the middle of nowhere in Montana on the in this cabin out there

And, you know, he was supposedly one of the last people to see Ashley alive. And so I went out there and, you know, unannounced, I didn't have a phone number. I just kind of rolled up. And as I walked on the property, he was kind of sitting weird against his car and he pulled a gun out. And I was like, oh, shit. And like in my head, the first thing that I did was I just started talking. I just started almost acting like maybe we even know each other. And it kind of threw him off.

Paul was like, Sam, you know, what's going on, man? Like, wow, it smells good out here. You know, it's like the, I can smell the lake in the air and just sort of just spitting out random shit. And I was like, and it kind of worked because he started just being like, do I know this guy? Clearly, he's not a threat. I didn't have a gun. When he pulled a gun, are you saying like he's just kind of showing like, don't follow

me? Yeah, he was kind of like, he was like up against the car and he kind of drew it like this. Like, he pointed at me, but she was. He made it clear he had a gun. Yeah. And I just acted like it didn't phase me and that maybe we even knew each other. You know, cut to an hour later,

we were talking and we talked for like two hours. And then, you know, I even met with them again a second time and a third time. So, you know, just learn to keep pushing. And, you know, obviously if someone doesn't want to talk to me, then that's fine. But most of the time, if you reason with them and just be a good human about it,

people want to share their story. And so I was just kind of going with that and hoping that that was the case here. That's a wild story. And I think, I think though there's takeaways, though, like whether you're a male or female looking to approach, you male or female at the bar, or you're a salesman knocking on someone's doors, or you're an entrepreneur just trying to get your next client. It is wild as the takeaways are. I think there are some universe takeaways here that when you do approach someone, when someone's knocking on your door, or you get a call from a number you don't know, or you're walking up to a guy and he shows his gun,

instantly whatever the reaction is I think people immediately have their guard up like no matter what that interaction is and exactly to your point pain like when you actually want to hear their story and people want to tell it the guard will come down when you're not posing as a threat and more

of someone just intrigued, interesting and wanting to know more and I think there's so many crossovers just from that story no you're right it applies to much more than knocking on killer stores yeah well what episode does this next event happen where shit just It's nuts.

It'll probably be in episode eight. Episode eight. Yeah. It's very interesting. I think it's a very telling encounter with this individual. There you go. Episode eight, a little behind the scenes there with pain, Lindsay. All right.

So with Up and Vanished, I've read a couple places, how many downloads you've had? How many, like, total downloads have you had? And, like, talk to me a little bit about the success of Up and Vanished. I think we, honestly, I don't really know, but I think that we just crossed 400 million downloads on Up and Vanished, like, kind of recently, or we were about to or something. So, I mean, there's definitely a lot.

400. Yeah. Oh, my God, that is wild. All right. So then my next, I got to go straight. I mean, my brain just starts counting the dollar signs. So I'm trying to understand this. As I'm doing research, I'm putting all the things together.

you launched this Tenderfoot TV company you have. And I see right now the show lives on that. So when I saw some of the other shows that live on that too, is this a network and did you have this podcast under that network before you launched? Yeah, so I just started saying in season one from Tenderfoot TV in Atlanta, I honestly just wanted to sound bigger than it really was. And based off the success of Up and Vanish, we started making other podcasts.

So all the shows that you see on Tenderfoot are my shows too. I think we have like 12 or so. We have a bunch in the works. And we have different partnerships with different I-hard, Cadence 13, Audible. And so there's a bunch of different partners we work with. And some of them have advanced money. Some of them have not. I mean, there's different deals with everything.

And we've kind of just, you know, learned as we go and navigated this from, you know, up and vanished, you know, growing this way, then growing this way with. having more IP, more shows. And here we are. It's genius that you did that literally before this even launches. I mean, so, you know, I'm an open book. Like, we are here with trading secrets. We are under Deer Media Network. So it's not a network I own. And Dear Media charges us a thousand bucks a month for administrative fees. And then we get 70% of all of our ad revenue. And then there was no, because we were a new podcast, there was no established listening. Then, you know, a lot of people that have established the listeners will be actually bought out.

So there was no like upfront fee. We just get 70% of revenue. So owning your own network, obviously, you're not dealing with things like that. But how are you monetizing up and vanish? Is it strictly ads? Yes. So I mean, early on, up and vanish was a huge success. And everyone was like, you know, up and vanish season two.

What are we doing? And so we basically had a few different offers from different players. We ended up going with this company called Cadence 13, and they advanced us a pretty large sum of money. And we basically used that to get tenderfoot off the ground, as well as make this podcast. But that was almost like a seed investment for us to keep going. And so we've kind of kept that up as we've moved along

and sort of playing with other people's money and not ours. We don't have any loans. We don't have any debt. We could probably go get it if we wanted to. But we've kind of, you know, forged our bets with getting minimum guarantees from certain people and being able to forecast how much we're making every quarter and going from there. And also leveraging, you know, if we have a popular show, it's only, you know, in my mind, as a business person, it's like, yeah, like, someone needs to cut the check for this.

Yeah. I don't want to take that risk. You know, we could. I mean, we might make more money, but I would personally rather just know that we're making expound of money and then just make it. So for like up and vanish, like season three or whatever, season one. So you actually will sell the show to someone as opposed to like I'll make, I'll do five ads, five ads a show. And each clip I'll make 10K and ads.

It'll be 50K a show. You will actually just before it's done, you sell the whole show. Basically, I'm just selling the rights for them to sell the show. So they're just basically ad agency, not an agency, but like they sell ads for podcasts. And they have, they exclusively may be selling up in vanish season two. And so it's still a bunch of different brands and stuff like that. But they're getting their cut. And got it.

Exclusively with them. And, you know, they took a bet on us to work with them. Got it. That makes sense. The podcast industry, it's like the Wild Wild West. It really is. When you came into your first season, did you have expectations for how much you would want to make off that show? And how has that changed season to season?

I mean, to be honest, like I said, like when I first started, I didn't even think podcasts could really make any money. And then we started making, you know, a few thousand dollars an episode. And to me, that was huge. I was like, wow, this is, you know, I was already doing this for basically free. So this is awesome. And then I think that we met with some of the sales guys from a company called Audio Boom, which we were with for a little bit in the very beginning. And, you know, they were super pumped because up in financials,

blowing up, and he was like, you're going to make 200K this year. And I was like, holy shit. Like, that is, you know, that blew my mind. I was like, you know, I got friends who going to school to be a doctor and they don't make that, you know? But now it's like even way bigger because we have more shows. And we kind of chose to grow this way. You know, we could have focused on, you know, just my shows, making them for as cheap as

possible, not cheap, but as smart as possible. and just do that. But we decided to do a different thing. And that's grow as many shows as we can that are good, forge different relationships and partnerships with other creators and other podcasters and really kind of build up a network of valuable IP. And, you know, I think eventually the exit strategy for us

would be somebody buys Tenderfoot. And that's, you know, that's kind of what we're working towards is being able to do that. position ourselves to be desired in that way. And yeah, because, I mean, then you have all the shows under it, all the assets, and then the credibility to get more shows. I mean, I'm running the numbers.

I know some podcast executives. I know some podcasts. I mean, you're talking millions of dollars here. I'm not off when I, I mean, you said 200,000, but you're talking millions and millions and millions of dollars. Yes. Yep. From broke and not being able to afford a fucking three.

thousand-dollar ad to making millions and millions off a podcast. I mean, when I say that out loud and you hear that, how does it like, what are you thinking about? I mean, if you look at it like that, it's just like, wow, that is absolutely insane. But, you know, we literally celebrated every single win along the way from 100,000 downloads, a million downloads, five million downloads. Like, every time, we didn't know what the ceiling was for any of this, from money to downloads to whatever. And so it's been like, I've been kind of growing and evolving as we've got to that point. It wasn't like an overnight thing. It took sort of years to do this. But eventually now I'm like, I'm looking back like, wow, like I can't imagine if, you know, if I let that little voice in my head

that said, hey, you're not a podcast. Yeah. It wouldn't be here today. And that's, to me, that's scary that like I almost didn't do it. Well, and you think about how many people in life don't do it. You know what I mean? How many people don't? It's because of the voices or because they don't have the credibility or just the fear or the money. They can't just say, fuck it. Like, I am broke now. Who knows what will happen? And there you are. You know, within, and we're talking a short period of time here from 23 getting cut off to your dad, figuring out the college thing, being broke to now having one of the most successful shows to ever launch and millions of millions of dollars later. It's awesome. What do you think is, and we just have a couple more questions here.

We'll wrap up. And this has been inspiring. I think from your story, there's so many takeaways that people can approach the lives. I don't care if they're in medicine. I don't care if they're selling widgets, whatever, they're entrepreneur, anything. There's so many lessons here. So you're making a huge impact. What do you think is the most, I guess,

shocking thing you've learned so far from either the podcast industry or the true crime space? I mean, I think that my biggest takeaway has been, you've got to be willing to take a risk. And taking risk, that's scary. You know, that means that you could fail. You could be worse off by having taken that risk.

But all the successful people I've met and the greatest things I've ever seen be made is because someone took a risk, you know. And I've learned that, you know, I'll have an idea for something. And I've even pitched it before. And people are like, no, that's not good. Then I just go and make it. And then it is good. Everyone likes it.

And I'm like, oh, okay. well, you know, I just need to trust my gut more and not really question it. And I think that the more you take risk and you see how they work out or how they don't work out and you learn from that, the bigger things you can do down the road. And as you get a few wins under your belt, you know, you kind of, you get that confidence to be able to to keep doing it. And I just, you know, meet so many people who aren't willing to take a risk because it's uncomfortable and I get it. But if you want to do something great, there's got to be some level

of risk taking involved. And to be honest, it's worth it. It's worth even failing and learning from that. And maybe your next thing is the one that takes off. Yeah. I mean, that is so well. So I take those risks. You never know what is going to take off and what isn't. Two last questions I have you that are more like almost rapid fire. They're quick, quick answers. I'm just curious. Are you, Is there any financial incentive? Like, I'm thinking dog the bounty bounty hunter. This dude's made a ton of money off getting people and getting them in jail. Is there any financial incentive to actually solve the case?

I mean, financially, I mean, it would become that much bigger of a story. You know, I mean, I would imagine that if I were to solve a case in my podcast, that the national news coverage would be pretty big and explosive. and if anything, we're probably getting more downloads. But, yeah, I kind of look at it more like living up to the expectation that people have for me. You know? Yeah. And the money will come, you know, all that stuff will come if you're smart about it. But to me, it always goes back for what I do about making great work.

We can sit here and talk about all day, you know, the ins and now and all the different methods I have and, you know, whatever. but if episode six sucks, then what's the point? So I really kind of like, how do I keep making this good? How do I get better at this? And, you know, sometimes you make a little bit of money. Sometimes you make a lot of money. But if it's good, that is priceless because people remember that. Any cool person I've ever met in my life so far, it's because they were fans of the work.

They were fans of what I did. And so they wanted to meet me and work with me. They were fans. And so, like, had it not been good, you know, I could be in that same room with that person. And, you know, they don't, they're not excited to work with me because they don't even know what I'm capable of doing. Yeah.

Staying motivated by making just the good work. The last question I have from you before we try and get one closing trading secret from you would be you up and vanished did become a TV series. I believe you got six episodes. Is that right? The six episodes. So going from podcasting and then turning your podcast into an actual TV series, looking down the road financially and just engaging.

Do you have more interest in making the TV stuff from a financial and professional perspective or more sticking with the podcast? I think that I want to get more into scripted TV. We have a show called Radio Rental, Dead and Gone. and these are like really kind of cool worlds that a scripted show could live in. And, you know, I would love to see us be able to put together a scripted series

that is on Netflix or Hulu, whatever, and be an executive producer of that show and or a creator of it and just kind of give it to an amazing screenwriter, director, and, you know, stay an executive producer on it, take a pretty nice cut from my EP fee, and just do that as many times. times over. You know, for me, the up-and-vanish TV show was not very lucrative and it was so much

of my time. But, you know, there were times where I just wanted to not do it anymore. But, you know, I just kept telling myself, say, hey, like, you know, I just need to get one of these shows under my belt because now the next time I'm in the room with these people, I can say, you know, I have executive produced a TV show, you know, no matter how big or small it was, it's like getting a show on air is I found damn near impossible. I don't know how anything. anything gets made. But, um, so just like the fact that we were able, even able to do it was, you know, was worthwhile. And so I think that I've changed my approach to focus probably less on

unscripted TV and try to take some of our, you know, most valuable IP and just do something really cool with it in the scripted space. And, you know, it all takes forever and there's so many players involved. But, you know, we got some things in the pipelines that we're excited about. And, you know, one of these days, something's going to pop and, you know, that'll open some new doors for us scripted or unscripted you're going to have a fan watching your stuff your shows your podcast right here love the genre love your work pain before we let you take off one trading secret it's a name of the podcast that someone couldn't find in a textbook a classroom or a read on google as it relates to either maybe the way you've managed your money from broke to making millions or

just your career successor or just anything that's inspirational what do you think has been kind of like your trading secret or one you could share with everyone listening don't Don't overthink shit. It's so easy to overthink everything. It applies creatively. It applies in business, I think, too. You know, obviously, make wise decisions to your research, but don't waffle on something until you miss the chance or the boat sales or you become so consumed with it that you kind of lose sight of what your guts telling you to do anyways. I'm not saying be impulsive, but I think that if you overthink stuff, you don't give your chance. You don't give yourself a chance to grow and learn because you're so caught up on, is this the right thing to do? It's just the right decision. You know, like in editing a podcast, you make a million micro decisions. And if you're getting caught up on one of those things, you could never get better at anything.

And so I think that applies also in the business world too. You know, sometimes you just have to make a decision. You got to pull the trigger. And that opens new doors, new things are happening. You can always go back and change shit, you know. nothing is usually permanent unless you're signing a contract you know it's like you can always go back and do things differently but don't get stuck just trying to figure it out just just roll with it and go with your gut make a decision nothing's permanent it's brilliant brilliant advice what a

trading secret nothing is brilliant don't overthink shit uh pain thank you so much for your time your inspiration your stories uh they are just fascinating and i can promise you uh this is an episode that most people can't afford to miss. Where can people find season three and all the work that you're going on and yourself on social? Where can people find everything? Yeah, Up and Vanish is coming out weekly right now.

It's on all the different platforms where you listen to podcasts, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, any of the podcast apps that should be there. And then if you want to follow me on social media, it's just at Payne Lindsay, my name, on all the different socials. Awesome, man. Hey, we really appreciate your time.

And congrats on all your success. It's been fun to listen and also hear your story. We really appreciate it. I appreciate it, man. Thank you. Awesome. Ding, ding, ding. Be a ringing in the bell with Payne Lindsay.

What a wild episode. Up in Vanished. A podcast that not only changed the life of the community that he was doing the podcast in, but changed the life of him professionally and, financially. So, guys, if you enjoyed this episode, please go in the reviews. Give us five stars and leave us a comment. Any feedback, positive, maybe a guess we should have or a topic we should cover. The direction you give us is the direction we are going. And speaking of direction, what do I got in the recap? As per usual, as always, the curious Canadian to give me his

take on everything we just talked about. So, David, I am sure you're thrown off by those numbers and some of the money behind it and literally from $0 in this guy's account, a $100 investment to a microphone and an idea, now making millions and millions of dollars. What is your take on all of it? Yeah, a lot of shocking numbers there. Really good guess, really relatable.

Love when they're relatable, because as I'm listening, I'm just putting my head as the voice of the viewer there and just a really inspiring story, but you know he's legitimate when he has that soundproof podcasting room that he was in. It looks like, It's like, because I've seen it, it's like in the middle of his house.

It looks like he was about to like record an album. It's got like the foam on the wall and everything, which I'm sure again, like he had $10 in his bank account. He's selling his Xbox to buy Wendy's like there's no way he ever thought of that. So some eye popping numbers there. I mean, 57,000 reviews, 400 million downloads. Can you give the people perspective? Because obviously if they're listening, they're listening to art podcasts, they enjoy art podcasts. Like they may wonder how we compare in success.

like can you shed some light on our numbers in terms of ratings and downloads to just see how how outrageous that is from our perspective yeah i'll put that in perspective so i just you know i just record with nick vial and we talk about his podcast and the money behind it and how much he's been able to make so that episode is coming soon but i want to just put it out there i think from my understanding of the podcast space if you're doing about let's say you're doing like five six million downloads a year. You should easily be making over a million dollars, right? So that's from people I know that are our space. If you're doing, you know, five, six million downloads, if you could do 500,000 to a million downloads a month, you're a thousand percent, a thousand

percent clearing seven figures in your podcast. And as you guys know, the costs associated with the podcast, now you know, aren't high. To do that is really hard. To do that, you're in the 0.001%. Now, what we're on pace to do with our podcast, and thank you to everyone listening, so we couldn't do without you, is probably about 2 million downloads in a year. So if you're doing that $12 million mark, definitely clear in seven figures. So for them to be doing 400 million and they own the IP, I mean, they got to be just raking it in. Absolutely. Like, that's why he was joking when he's like, yeah, I thought I was going to, you know, I made it when I made 200K, because he's making millions and millions and millions and millions dollars off this.

Crazy. And that's how you get a podcast studio in your house. So all the congrats to him. And like he said, you know, celebrating the small wins along the way. Like he said they celebrated their first 10,000 downloads, 100,000 downloads. I know Trading Secrets team, like we do the same thing. I'm always still shocked when you send like, hey, we hit 500,000 downloads. We hit 600,000 downloads.

I just, I think it's incredible. And again, something to take away for. our listeners, like in your own personal lives, like always celebrate the small wins, whether it's, you know, a promotion or hitting your numbers or doing a side hustle and making your first dollar, always celebrate those small wins. But I wanted to ask you, Jay, why do you think true crime is taking over the world? And I mean that by like taking over the world. What are some of your favorites that you've seen? Because I know you put me on Dr. Death one a couple years ago. but what are some of your favorites and why I want to get into the weeds a little bit here why do you think true crimes taking over the world okay true crime the whole thing is fascinating it's a wild thing in America because if you think about this I just got to see Chicago the play and they just had their 25th anniversary what Chicago is about in summary is these this woman who murders her husband and all the women in jail murder their husband for other crazy reasons and essentially

what their takeaway is in jail like in America who can be the murderer that gets away with it and also can get the most fame from being the murderer and in jail the women are like competing about how they're going to have the biggest name and when they're they talk about their newspaper and who made the front cover and who's the most relevant in what's wild is that David in the 70s this show flopped because it was such a forward thinking thing in America like what like you're talking about this like quick celebrity fame where these people out of nowhere become these like you know monster names and like people couldn't relate to it but in the 90s right after the OJ case the show took off and they're on their 25th year and they make fun of the fact like

why the fuck is America like this like why is it like the Casey Anthony case do you remember the Casey Anthony case I could tell you everything about that the Kyle written house case it's going on right now. You go turn on any fucking news station. That's where you're going to hear about what is happening with Kyle Rittenhouse. We could talk about Dr. Death. We could talk about Robert Durst documentary.

We could talk about, you know, Gabby Petito, we could talk about all these things. The question is why? What is your answer? Why do you listen to Dr. Death? Why are you curious what will happen with Kyle Rittenhouse and Casey Anthony is still burned into your brain? And remember, like, remember that crazy story?

story in Chicago. I don't know not Chicago, Cleveland, the guy who like had those, it was like two or three women had him like in jail cells in the basement and the way they got free to, she got her fingers out and the neighbors saw it. Like it's just so fucking crazy, but it captivates our attention like nothing else. And what is the psychology about? Because 400 million downloads over a cold case that was gone, right? No one cared about it.

done in the 80s and then he cracked it and it's changed his life and many others what is the behavioral understanding behind that and I think the other thing too when I ask you that is if you're thinking about a business or you're thinking about something that you could do that impact could impact a greater good or make a change in your life I think you do have to understand the psychology and behavior of humans to say why are they moving in this trend and if I do it will they move there too. To be honest, it kind of scares me a little bit. Like, I remember when I listened to Dr. Death, it was like probably three years ago. And, you know, I watched the jinx, you know, when I was in college still, making a murder when I was in college still.

And I didn't really think anything of it. I've just become more of like an observer and critical thinker of like how I'm spending my time. Yeah. And when I say it's taking over the world, like, the world to me is like what we listen to and what we watch. And if you go like true crime is the top what eight of the 10 podcasts in the entire world so it's like what everybody's listening to me and my wife go on Netflix last night to watch a documentary and nine of the first nine we look at are murder death crime than a sports one that's all that's all i that's all i watch it's just even if i don't want to watch it it's like it's like being pushed in my direction to watch it and we watch them then actually can't go to sleep and then she's like triple locket

checking the doors that they're locked. I'm like, what do we, why are we, what are we doing to ourselves? Um, you know, I think that I think there's two parts of it. I think that one, the whole mystique around it like the whole putting yourself on the side of right and wrong, like almost like an escape of like wondering how people do this is just so intriguing to the mass mass, mass 99.99% of humans like trying to put themselves in that psychological state of like understanding. And then the money behind it. Like now we're in, you know, money, fame and all those things that you talked about. Like not just saying people do these acts for that, but everyone's putting in front of people's faces because if they do, they know they're just going to get this automatic audience that people are talking about it.

So I just, I think from a, like you said, human behavior psychological aspect, it's crazy. But Squid Games, like I watched it, you watched it all about death. Like Travis Scott concert, like what happened there? like consumed my 4U page on TikTok for five days and I'm like, you know, conspiracy theories flying left, right, and center. You get the Gabby Petito case like all over TikTok on Dr. Phil.

Like the Travis Scott, what happened there at that concert's on Dr. Phil today? Gabby Petito's parents have on, like, again, it's just all over, all the time, nonstop. It's like still not sure what to think of it. Yeah, it's like the Squid Games is the number one watch show ever, ever

on Netflix, ever. Like hundreds and It's by kids, too. It's like kids. It's like kids on Halloween are dressing up as squid games, which means they've seen it. They're like eight years old playing red light, green light. Like when I'm at the grocery store here

and these like eight-year-olds play it. It's like, um... Is it the intrigue? Is it like the intrigue? Like, you're always trying to... It stimulates the brain to think like, what happens next? Can you figure it out?

How could someone that's so everyday do it? Um, because you brought up so many examples right there. The squid games you brought up. Um, I mean, I mean, there's, dude, there are so many of them you think about the world we live in the Kardashians right where did the Kardashian where did this all come from Robert Kardashian was famously known as oj's attorney like it's it's just as you can break down like everything and then kind of jennar does her little marketing campaign for her Halloween line that's like she's like covered in blood for like uh

instagram post and i'm just like this is tiger king like everything is why is every fucking thing in our world where there's entertainment documentaries, the biggest celebrities? Like, what the fuck? All I got to say, because if we, I know you and I, like, sooner or later, it'll be like, the sun will be setting and we'll be sitting here for 10 hours talking about this.

All I got to say about this is, to be honest, as much as I do consume some of it. I'm more aware, and it scares this living shit out of me. It consumes, it scares me. So one business question, and then I have one hypothetical for you. Let's hear it. He set a line, and this is complete 180. but I feel like, you know, if someone's listening for some money advice, we got to give it to him.

He said a line that kind of resonated with me. So if it resonates with me, hopefully it resonates with the listeners. He says, when you have very little money, it's hard to be good at money. So I wanted to ask you for advice. Now, I don't know if anyone listening to this is on that, you know, $10 in their bank account, but they might be. Sure. But it also might just be like, you know, the daily grind of like, I can't do anything Jay's telling me to do. I don't have any money.

What's your simple advice for that? First of all, I resonate with that because if you don't have a lot of money, it's tough to be good at money. It's a very fair fact. And guess what? I think it proves true in every statistic in America. The issue I have is usually when you don't have money is when you make the biggest and most detrimental decisions to your finances, right?

Because when you don't have money, what do you typically do? You find ways to get that money. So you can buy what you need to buy and continue to do what you want to do and keep up with your friends. And that's why we have 300 million Americans. and over 191 of them, David, have credit cards. The other thing, too, is there's a lot of reasons behind it. And the economy's been flushed with cash right now.

But if you look at spending credit card balances, just in one quarter, one quarter is three months. Okay. So usually when people talk about quarters, quarter one, January to end of March, et cetera. In the, from quarter two to quarter three in 2021, the balances of American credit cards went from $787,000 billion to over $800 billion. We rose over $13 billion. I think it was roughly around $20 billion in credit card debt balances in a month. So to me, yes, if you don't have money, it's hard to be good at thinking about like

strategic investment in what you're doing and how you're doing it. But when you don't have money and when you're making a shot at a new business, it's when you have to be that much more careful with how. you're spending and the tools and resources you're using for debt to get what you need to get. And that's the scary part. Yes, that is the scary part. Here's an analogy that I had. I'm curious your take on it. If you make $50,000 a year, $500,000 a year, $5 million a year, $50 million a year, et cetera, et cetera, so on and so forth, I'm a believer because, you know, I've worked for an employer that was a multi-billionaire. You know, I've been around wealthy people

and I've been around my friends. And everyone seems to be under the exact same. stress. Despite the dollar amount, do you think that everyone's flexible income as a percentage is all the same? I think it was a few years ago. Because you spend more money, you get the nicer car. You get the nicer house. Like you're flexible, like your spending income, your flexible income is like 5%. Whatever it is, right? If it's $50,000, I have $500. But I feel like that stress because the life you build around your income is always the same. Just an analogy. Yeah. I mean, I read a I don't know. I think it's actually the opposite. I find that more money, more problems is what people say, right? I mean, keeping up with everyone else and trying to, you're then letting

your ego drive you instead of your happiness. I think the opposite. I read a stat the other day, if you make over $100,000 income, you don't have to really, really worry about money. So they're not saying you're good for life, right? But if you make over $100K, you're not going to stress out the psychologist did this study, you're not going to overly stress out if you're feeling like I need a sub at Subway where I want to go out for a dinner. Like, yes, of course, you have to manage your finances

and you have to manage student debt and your credit card debt. And so it'd be interesting to review a study on overall wealth and happiness. My guess would not be doing that study or reading anything on the study is that after a certain income threshold, David, like once you have enough to get your home

and be able to pay your bills and get your credit card or any type of debt together, I would think that once you achieve that, the less amount of net wealth you have, which is crazy, probably there's a correlation to increased happiness. Yeah, I believe that. I always use the analogy. You've been around some of the wealthiest people.

You've seen very successful families. I have noticed in those worlds, there is a lot, a lot of more issues that come with it. And there also becomes greater egos that come with it. And which brother or sister is now leading the company? I mean, look at obviously the Robert Durst case, bring it full circle, right? He was the leading son. And the younger son is the one who took over and he went off a spiral.

Like these are things that are real and they happen. Yeah, it's managing a personalities too because now it's not just your family. It's like you're now have a personal staff. You're managing the expectations of those, your drivers, your chefs, you're all that stuff. So anyways, I agree with that. And it's the old analogy when you can be at a restaurant and not think about ordering steak or chicken because you're not worried about the $18 difference. That's when you know you're in a good place. So we've all been there.

All right. Last question I have, since we're on the docu series, true crime, it's exploded. You know, you have pain here who started it on just like a creative idea. If you could make a doc, we could do a whole debate on, is it documentary or documentary? because I'm a documentary guy. You're a documentary guy. The world says documentary. In Buffalo, we say documentary, but fire away.

Okay. If you could make a passion doc on any industry, whether it be exposing or diving deep into it or even maybe trying to debunk a theory that you have, what would it be in? What would it be on? Oh my God. I can have come up with so many.

One right now that Todd, obviously, is just the world of like social media, NFTs. I would want to get in the weeds with the people who do really well, the people who think they do well, the people who have failed miserably. I think the whole influencing space is fascinating right now. The other thing is like the whole corporate America game. It's something I've studied for a while. It's something I've been in for 10 years. Like the key ingredient, the shady shit that happens where people are getting either family or friends or someone they like to the top. Like, you know, there's that old song from Hamilton.

I want to be in the room where it happens, the room where it happens. Because there are those rooms where all, everything is decided, right? And like, who's going to be the next CEO? Who's going to be the next CFO? Who's getting promoted and why? And there's so much shady shit that goes behind those decisions. I mean, I get to my conspiracy hat on and you know that conspiracy hack gets really big. What's here?

I would love to do like a couple. One, a normal one. I would love to just do it. a deep dive on Vegas. Oh my God. Everything about Vegas. Or what about this side? Well, this is a good one.

I would like to know when you do a casino, all the psychology that goes behind every single square inch in that place. Yeah, like you talked about the carpets and the lights and so you don't look down because ugly carpets. Increase oxygen, right? The lighting stays high. There's no clocks. Carpets are ugly so you look up. When you want to go cash out, it's usually in the back so you have to pass all the tables.

But there's probably so much more that we have no idea about it. Oh, I want to do. Everything from, like, sports betting lines to rigged tables to, like, just the person. I want to do everything, a deep dive on Vegas. Dude, I want to do one in jail, too. Like, when you, like, those, these guys, they do go to jail, like, go back to true crime. Like, how, like, are the gangs preexisting?

Are gangs formed? Can money buy you protection? Like, all these things. I think we should take the money aspect of all of them and bring them into trading secrets. What do you think? I love it. I have two more money related than I'm done.

one, I would love to do a deep dive on taxes and interest and just like what, like where does the money go? How does it get used? What is it really funding? Because I just think like taxes and interest are two things that we just accept as human beings without like understanding the true root of them. And then I don't think we even know where the money goes ever. And then two, I have always had this idea since like a little kid. I want to make a movie or a docu-series. And I don't even know if it's true or not. I don't want people coming at me. But how much money does cancer research bring in a year globally, nationally? And I just want to know, like, where it goes. This is a whole episode on non-for-profits we could do. And those that allocate funds towards

the actual research and impact and those who use it as a means of fundraising to do other things. These are all great topics. Let's write them down. And what I'll say, David, is anyone that's listening out there that has more topic for us? Please give us five stars. And in the review section, put a topic that you're intrigued by because that's what we're here to do, to pull the curtain back in these areas of life and these industries we've also and always been curious about. It kind of goes back to the whole true crime thing. They're curiosities. You want to know what happened, how to happen, what's the result. But the second we know the result, once we get the information. We feel satisfied and want the next one. So I think that's what we should do.

I think we should wrap up right here right now. David, any last minute remarks before we close this bell? Put, like Jay said, I can't say it enough. I love reading the reviews that people put. Put, if you can make a docu-series on any industry, passion project, what would it be? Because I want to like, whether we talk about it on here or not, Jay and I will go into deep detail on the side about it. And live Q&A. Love that. Live Q&A's coming next week. Guys, if you ever interest on being on any of these podcasts live or being in our Facebook group or we have a day trader that gives daily advice. Shoot us an email. Restart. Jason at restart. Whoa, restart at Jason Tartick.com. Need more coffee today. Restart at Jason Tardick.com. Shoot us an email. We have a

networking group. It's literally nine bucks a month. We'll give you a full year membership right now for 79 bucks and you can be part of all of it. So David, thank you for being here. Pain, Lindsay. You are the man. Congratulations on all your success. And I hope you guys found this to be another exciting episode of Trading Secrets. As we say, one you can't afford to miss. Tune in next Monday for another wild jaw-dropping episode. me making that money living that dream