Trading Secrets - 35: The Number$ No one tells you about “Bachelor Nation” with Bachelor Data!

Episode Date: January 10, 2022

In today’s episode of ‘Trading Secrets’ Jason sits down with Suzana Somers, who is the force behind @bachelordata, the Instagram account that analyzes everything and anything “Bachelor Nation”. This account has gone from nothing to taking Bachelor nation by storm! Jason and Suzanna talk all about who, how, and why some cast members gain an immense following, while others can even lose their existing following.  The drama on the show equates to many things; are followers part of that equitation? We analyze storylines, post-show social media success, who has done it best, how break-ups contribute to the growth or decline of followers, predictions about Clayton’s season, and much more. It’s another episode you can’t afford to mi$$.   For All Access Content - join our networking group for less than 30 cents a day, here!    Sign up for our newsletter here!   Sponsors: Babbel.com code TRADINGSECRETS for 3 free months Audible.com/tradingsecrets or text “tradingsecrets” to 500-500 Host: Jason Tartick Voice of Viewer: David Arduin Executive Producer: Evan Sahr Produced by Dear Media.

The following podcast is a dear media production. Welcome back to another episode of Trading Secrets. I've got a question for all you Bachelor fans out there. Have you ever wondered whether the first impression rose determines would contestants go home or how and why the show's villains end up losing, or gaining followers after the show. Maybe whether screen time impacts social media engagement or followers, if so, you're in the right place

because we are joined with Susanna Summers, who you might all know by IG Handel Bachelor Data. And if you don't, go check it out. Susanna originally started Bachelor Data is a way to teach herself the art of Excel and to do it while having fun. What's really cool about this project is that she was a Bachelor fan before she even started it, and it was her love for the show that launched this successful

business. She tracks everything from followers to screen time, villains, breakups, fireworks, first impression roses. I've seen her track literally the words that are said per episode. It's colors of dresses. I've seen it all. It's unbelievable. We're lucky to have Susanna here today to spill all the tea about the work she does and tell us about the interesting insights she has found from all Bachelor, Bachelorette, Bachelor in Paradise analysis. Susanna, thank you so much for coming on the show today. We appreciate it. Thanks for hiring me. I'm excited to talk all things data. All things, data and analytics. That is music to my ears. And trust me, guys, we're going to get

into some of the dirt of the findings here, right? We're going to talk about Michelle's season and Katie's season and Bachelor in Paradise, Matt, Tatius, Colton, Hannah, Claire, all of those analytics. But before we do that, I know a lot of people have you even sent these questions in, like, how does a fan create such momentum in this space? So much momentum that you're actually able to leave your job. So it's my understanding. It was about a year and a half ago during COVID is when you really started to get involved with this. So my question to you, is it true that this was just done as like a passion project? Yeah, a thousand percent. So this project actually predates my Instagram account.

I started this in December of 2018 when I was first promoted to a technology director position. And I put on my resume that I was proficient with Excel when I wasn't. I love that. Found out I actually needed to know how to use it for my job. And I was finding YouTube was just so boring as a way to learn how to use Excel. So I started tracking Colton season as a way to start. tinkering with Excel in a more fun way. That is such a great.

I mean, there are lessons from that, though, for like any type of industry you're in, is if you could take something that is boring, like Excel, and then you can find some sort of passion behind it, you might be able to get the wheel spinning. And that actually goes the same for like people who are like talking about, how do I start trading stocks? Some of the biggest advice will say is like, why don't you just look into a company that, like, you wear every day or that you enjoy looking at? But for you, Susanna, this was a means of learning Excel.

but then all sudden your account blows up. So at what point was it that your account really started to grow significantly, especially for people that are listening that might have a small business account or a small account and want to grow their Instagram? What was it for you that really moved your account in the right direction? I think honestly the biggest thing was the content that I was creating was content that the niche that I was establishing myself in was interested in. And what really helped my account grow early on was spending time interacting with accounts that

would benefit from sharing my work. So I started interacting with meme accounts, with Bachelor News accounts. And they saw value in my content and shared it on their feed. And that's how people started to find it. And then after that, then podcast started to find me. And when I went on a podcast, that would skyrocket my growth, a thousand followers in a day. And then fast forward to now, it's now that I've established my brand and my data in the Bachelor world, people are now citing me when Brendan and Piper are talking about data on Bachelor in Paradise or if race comes up in the news, people are citing my data. I love that. And the thing, again, I want to draw some parallels here because there are a lot of people that I'll go on to their podcast, right? And

they will send me clips to post. And unlike probably most of their guests, I'm like, Wait, you just sent me a clip that literally, I'm not even talking in it. It brings no value to if I want to post it. And you took that perspective with what you were doing from a growth with your Instagram, is you were creating analytics and resources and content that actually benefited other accounts from posting. Same similar thought processes. Like if you're trying to grow or you're trying to move any direction, when you can put

content out there that's going to benefit the mission of those companies or those people, there is such significant impact. And that's pretty cool that you did it. And you did it at such a speed that is my understanding from our last conversation and from what I've read, you were a technology director for the public school system. And you no longer now work in that position. Is that correct? I have a few more days left in the job. But yes, I'll be leaving my job. That's huge. Congrats. Yeah, it's, I mean, the content creator industry, it's really one that I think a lot of people dismiss, right? They, they see these people as influencers. They just talk about the clothing that they wear or they share videos of their family. But when you can create something of value and establish yourself as an expert in a brand, it's amazing how fast your account can grow. I mean, I started my Instagram account a few weeks before the pandemic. I got, I think, nine or 16 posts in to Peter's season. And obviously, as technology director, and just education in general, I lost my life for like a solid nine months. But when Claire's season started, I started to use my account again. I think I was at like 400 followers.

And I'm now a year later at over 100,000 followers. Wow. Have you done any of the analysis to think through how long it might take or are you already there where you'll be able to supplement the income made as a technology director in the public school system from your bachelor data account? Yeah, I've definitely surpassed it, but I think there's a lot that goes into that type of calculation because when you leave a nine to five job where you have a steady income, you have a pension, especially in Massachusetts within education, you get that awesome idea of a pension. If you stick around for 50 something years, there's a lot of forecasting that also goes into taxes and the people that you need to hire and how that all works, that there's a lot of forecasting that needs

to be done. But I think what it really came down to was when I looked at the income I was making from my course, the time that I spent creating for Bachelor data and then creating for my course was maybe 10% of the hours that I was spending every week working. So when I looked at the money that I was making with my after work energy, when I'm exhausted, I had a rough day at work and I'm coming home and I'm recording content, editing content, I'm posting stuff on Instagram and that was coming in from 10 person in my effort. It just made sense to leave my day job. Right. If you can go 10x that, the upside is huge, right? Especially with the way that in general, content creation is growing and your platform is growing. That is,

it's just, it's fascinating to hear a story like that. I love to hear a story like that. We're going to get into some of the details of the analysis that you've done on season to season and what we, if there's any thesis is that we can drive from the information you've done of of villains and couples and breakups and how that analysis actually impacts the business of the Bachelor. But before we do that, I do want to touch on something that you just hit on. You have an Excel course. Is that your main way of monetizing at this point? And can you also tell everyone that's listening that might be intrigued? Like, oh, this is pretty cool. Tell them about the course that you did create. Yeah, it's the sole way that we are moving for generating revenue

for this platform. And I say we because I am not a team of one anymore. I have somebody who helps me. But I essentially took my own experience of learning how to use Excel and created an entire course that takes you from here's what Excel is and just how it works all the way up to advanced skills like pivot tables, V look up, X look up. And it's a course that teaches you all of those essential skills, but the data that you use is the bachelor. So it's all the Instagram follower growth on the contestants, screen time. And then throughout the course, I relate that to how you can use in your day job if you're a teacher or if you work with selling things online or even if you work a nine to five job. So I feel like probably naturally those that are following obviously have

interest in it. It's cool that you're doing it. Have you taken any revenue or are you open to taking revenue from ad deals at this point? I've been really picky with the ones that I've been doing. So I've done mainly partnerships with media companies where I will, for the premiere, I'll sell doing these posts just on their Instagram page. But what I found and what a lot of people don't realize that whenever you do these types of ad partnerships or partnerships, there's a lot of contractual negotiation that has to happen. And then especially in my world, I need to be very careful with signing contracts to make sure I'm not signing away the rights to my original data. So it is really complicated, but I am in conversations with some bigger brands that make sense for my brand.

Amazing. Yes. Another good takeaway there. Read every damn letter in every single contract you sign people. That is huge. All right. Now I want to get into, Susanna, the meat of what you're doing and how you're doing it because it drives my analytical mindset crazy every time I see what you're doing. And in the detail, in the analytics that you're doing and the speed that you're doing it is just fascinating. If you guys go see the bachelor data account, you'll probably see majority of my comments like, holy shit. you turn this data around fast. But let's get into it a little bit. So every Monday or Tuesday at this point, we know that there's been drama-filled seasons, right? We just finished Michelle's season. We had Katie season. We had Tasha season, Claire's season,

that split season. We had Matt. We had Bachelor in Paradise. We've had new hosts come along. We now have Clayton coming up. So I want to draw some conclusions from some of the analysis you've done. And I first want to start with drama.

It seems as though, and as someone who's been on the show, too, The people that are sparking the drama are taking up majority of the screen time for a large portion of the show. So before I even get into like the villains and the drama, I first want to talk about this. When you're analyzing screen time, is that a pretty consistent theme you're seeing that over the course of a season, those who are sparking drama and creating drama are taking up majority of the screen time when it comes to the cast? A thousand percent. And we'll like shake our heads and suddenly we're at the finale and we're like, wait, we hardly saw some of these people in the final four until now we're at the end. And you look at the overall screen time for the season and you see people like Jamie or even Ryan who went home episode one, the guy who wrote the playbook on how to go on the show. Somehow they're in the top most screen time for the season. It's baffling. It is backwards. And I think that impacts significantly the success. that some of the people have like in the bubble, well, like the fours, fourth spot, fifth spot,

six spot. Like I think about a Justin on Katie season. I actually saw your post the other day in that Justin came in second. And I was like, what, wait, what? Justin came in second on Katie season. I felt like he wasn't even on the show. Great guy. I feel like he wasn't even on the show. Yeah. And I think that it all comes down to storytelling. And I think there's also been a very big change in how stories are being told lately, especially when it comes to villains. So if you look at villains in the past, like Demi, they gained a ton of followers. But if you're looking now at Victoria, like Queen Victoria, or even if you look at like Anna, who was on Matt's season, they pale in comparison to their female counterparts from years ago. And I think it comes down

to the villains now and the storylines that are being told. It's accusing women of being an escort. Or if you look at Queen Victoria, people were saying, this girl's reminding me of back when I was in middle school being bullied by other girls. And I don't, I think it's very different than from what we saw with Demi when she was like the playful villain on her season. Yeah, she was like the kind of like the cool, funny, playful villain. Like there are times that people didn't like her. And the times you're like, oh my God, I want to go get a drink with that person.

I actually also feel the same with Jordan on our season, who people would consider a villain. He was like, I thought he was free great. And then also I just think like he's funny. So I think he also caught a pretty good following, too, because he's got this like-lacability factor. So are you saying that in general, you can't create the conclusion that villains don't do well on the show as it relates to a following? They're not anymore. They used to do really well, especially when they would go on Paradise. But nowadays, we're seeing that they're just not getting the followers that they used to.

I would think that if someone was going on the show, they would say to themselves, yes, I could steal the show a screen. time, but that's not going to translate into success after the show. Two questions for you. One, do you find that the villains that do do well, like the Demies and stuff, are having continued success after the show with followings? And two, have you ever been approached by someone that's either on the show or going on the show that's like asking you for insight as to what they should do to grow their following? You know, I think on the second question, no, I've never had anybody before they go on the show, reach out to be like, how can I get the most Instagram followers?

I'm going to make a bet that does happen, though. That will happen. Trust. Mark my words. I mean, it wouldn't be difficult. If they just listen to any podcasts that I've been on, they can get that answer. I think it's, when it comes down to the show, you have to be final four. You have to either have a really good storyline like Abigail did that gets you on to paradise, but it's not even just getting onto paradise. It's a leaving paradise in a relationship

or you have to become the lead. Those are the ways that you gain a lot of Instagram followers. Yeah. And I think especially, we've had two back-to-back bachelor seasons or bachelorette seasons. And having two back-to-back bachelorette seasons gave us a ton of male contestants. And what we've seen in the past in this franchise is that every single year, the contestants who go on the bachelor get way more followers because they're women. So women get more followers on the show than men. And it's typically because this is a female focused show. So I know for me, for example, when Hannah Godwin went on her season, I was like, man, her makeup's great. I'd love to follow her to see what highlighter she used. And you bet you,

I bought the highlighter. I don't do the same with men. And I think it's also something I'm really interested is not only to see if, okay, are we going to see an uptick now, now that we're back at the Bachelor, where we have a ton of women. They're back at the mansion. They're going to be traveling. Are we going to see an uptick? But I'm also really curious to see what these contestants do to shift the franchise in what contestants are doing after this show. And we're already seeing it with some of the contestants in how they brand themselves and how they're going to create their brand after this show. So they aren't just The Bachelor. And to circle back to your first question, I think a big problem that people have when they go on the show is they go on The Bachelor and

they gain a ton of followers, and then they lose followers after the show. And that's, that's looked at as a negative thing, but you need to meet yourself like you're doing. People don't follow Jason now just because he went on the bachelor, or the bachelorette. That was years ago. You are so far removed from the franchise. And while you still are connected in a lot of ways, you have to brand yourself, which is going to make you lose some followers that aren't for your brand, but that's not a bad thing. You want followers that will engage with your content of the brand that you're creating after the show. Yeah, I mean, it's so funny

because I just got a DM yesterday that was from a girl who had listened to the podcast. She's like, I love the podcast. I love what you're doing with the business stuff. That's why I follow you. And I found it funny when I sent it to my friends. The response was, oh, we followed him after Caitlin and him got engaged,

but we wanted all wedding planning content, and we didn't see any of that. So we actually unfollowed him. So it's like, do you want to try and appeal to the masses do gain that big following and like keep them around or do you want to stick to your brand? One thing you just mentioned about what people are doing now or what they will do after the show to maintain brand is interesting because it correlates to a comment you had made from the Bachelor Data TikTok on Nick Vial podcast that I had him on Trading Secrets.

I asked him who he had thought has done a successful job of branching out of the brand and creating a specific nichey brand. and you had mentioned you missed a long list here, and I think you put Jamie Otis. And so I did want to give you the opportunity to take some time to maybe give some attention or even themes to people that you've seen, someone that's tracking it regularly from people that just got off the show or have gotten off the show significantly ago that have done a good job and what your take is on that based on your analytics. Yeah, a thousand percent.

I think Nick and Caitlin, for example, they're from the time that you, you could create a podcast where you talk about The Bachelor and it becomes super successful. So we saw Caitlin do that. We saw Nick do that. We saw Becca from with the Kay. You know, she has a really successful podcast. Becca Tilly does too, right? Exactly.

Exactly. Ben and Ashley. Yeah. But what we're seeing now are that people who are trying to create podcasts now about The Bachelor, even if they try to spin it off in any other type of way, they're not finding the success that these other people had unless it's vastly different. I think people who have really created an identity that doesn't revolve around the Bachelor are people like Jillian Harris. If you look at Gillian Harris, she doesn't acknowledge The Bachelor anymore.

She has a whole brand that is so different. And then even Jamie Otis, I mean, she went pretty far in her season. Everybody was talking about how awkward that kiss was with Ben Flashnik. But everyone knows her now from the other reality TV show that she went on. So I think it's really a matter of how you're going to spin that and really niche down. I mean, If you look at Maddie Pruitt, she's one of my favorites to look at because she almost hit two million followers after her season. I think she was at 1,000,970-something thousand followers. Okay.

And she has changed her brand to become a religious influencer. And she's lost hundreds of thousands of followers, but she is thriving in her brand where she's being asked to be a speaker at different churches. She just launched a book about her faith. She's really niched down and it has nothing to do with The Bachelor and really pivoted her identity that now people are finding her through Sadie Robinson, who wrote the preface of her book, who has completely, is completely unaffiliated with The Bachelor. Right. Great examples that we have not visited on this podcast yet. So I'm glad that you brought those up and I think it is worth mentioning. I do want to quickly, because I have a ton of questions about Paradise and some of the other shows, but I don't want to get away. at all from Michelle's season as it's just wrapped. So as you've seen people that have come into Michelle's season and you're analyzing what their following was when the show started, reverse

the show wrapping up now, are there any big takeaways that you have concluded from the analysis you've done? And I'm going to assume, I don't know, but I would assume the two biggest followings are going to be Michelle's and Nate's as they've ended up together. Is that correct? Yeah. Every season, you'll see the final person and the lead are the people who gain the most followers. And it really comes down to the finale. Every single season, you'll see their numbers almost double. So it really comes down to Nate, Michelle. And then we also saw Brandon and Clayton grow a lot. Clayton, when he was first announced as going on to this show before they even started filming, I think he had like a thousand followers. But the spoilers around him being chosen as a bachelor, made him all season stand out with his follower growth. Now, what about a scenario like, so you just explained the brand and Nate, you do have a scenario, and it's happened before too, like a Jed and Tyler, where Jed actually won, but Tyler was like the hero, or there's been times where like, you know, Nick Vial, like, he took

off because people have sympathy for the broken heart, Blake Horseman. In my instance, it even happened a little bit. So I'm wondering, why do you think that happens or what takeaways do you have from those examples? I think people want to root for the people who get the hero storyline. I think it's a no-brainer. When our people go on the show, they want to see these people succeed afterwards if they like them and if the edit made you like them. So when Brandon comes off the show, he has 175,000 followers now. I bet people are going to be rallying for him to go to on Bachelor in Paradise next summer so he can find love again. But I do think it is a risky move to really focus on waiting this long. Because for Brandon, it's six months that he

has to bet on if he'll go on the show and if he'll find a relationship. But I think it's really just that hero storyline that people want to see of rooting for somebody. Yeah. And so you said the word Brandon, and I know we're talking about Brandon from a shell season. And then we talked about Paradise. So that also makes me think about Brandon and Piper. So Brandon and Piper is a great example of how now the show is talking about the right reasons, but exposing people that are truly going on to generate a following or having a tactic to do it. That impacted their following significantly, right? So they decreased heavily after that was announced. Have they rebounded since then, or has the continued momentum not been in their favor? Not at all. They have continued to decrease. And they're actually

one of the ones that stand out. So when you go on this show, if you get into a new relationship after the show, you gain a ton of followers. So we see that especially on Bachelor in Paradise. But if you see people after the show, not necessarily even on Bachelor in Paradise, great example, you and Caitlin, people go and follow because they're excited to see this new relationship start. Brendan and Piper were two that nobody followed even once they did finally announce that they actually stayed together, even though they were broken up and then they got back together. Yeah, interesting. Okay, so when you are exposed like that, you're going to get beat down pretty good. Unfortunately, that's what happened to Brandon and Piper, or fortunately, because their cause was brought to light. Let me ask you about this. I remember analyzing this when I was thinking about going on Paradise. It seemed as though most people that had a good run on the show, The Bachelor of the Bachelorette, would go on Paradise and their edit completely. flipped. I could think of people like Luke Pell, right? Completely flipped. Blake Horsman. You could think

about maybe even Ivan to a certain degree. Like I think there are people that finish while on the show and go on Paradise and completely bomb. Is there any type of correlation you've seen from people that finish, like in let's say the top four or their fan favorites and go on Paradise in their success track? We haven't really analyzed in that depth, but I do think that there are other storylines. You have Michelle, she was from Brad 2.0, who had a horrible edit. And then when she went on Bachelor in Paradise, she now got a great edit, left in a relationship. They ended up breaking up, but actually changed her edit for the positive. So I think it's a matter of honestly knowing what you're doing before you go on the show and not getting yourself involved in the drama too much and just being aware

of your surroundings. I think Blake didn't know what he was going into, Blake Horsman. I do think maybe knowing who possibly could have been there and what storylines could have been drawn, I think might have been important. But I think somebody like Abigail, it was a great, it was great for her because she got a good edit on her show that she could go on and have a good edit again, that there was really no baggage there. But I do think it is interesting to see who they choose because every season, you know, some people that were fan favorites and you know some people that were eliminated night one, you're like, why are you on Paradise? We don't know who you are. Yeah. Who they choose is interesting. What also is totally just a wild moving part to your analytics is the impact that things that happen off air can create with following. So when Blake went on, he was getting crushed in paradise. Like he was losing followers by the minute, wasn't gaining anything. And then he took it upon himself. And I don't want to get in debate of right versus wrong, but he took upon himself to release text messages from Kalin. That was,

opposing precisely what she was saying on the show and created controversy. He talks about it. That was a 24-hour period. He gained over 100,000 followers. He had like a 25% growth from exposing those text messages. Have you seen any type of impact of outside things that are being exposed through social media, not the show that's impacting for their good or following engagement and things like that? Yeah, a thousand percent. I think controversies drive numbers very quickly. So it can be anything from, like, when Demi, it was a photo resurfaced of her wearing a jacket with a Confederate flag on it, all the way to something positive, like announcing that you're pregnant, those types of events can surge you in either way. So like when somebody announced that they're

pregnant, be it like Raven, they're going to start to see Instagram growth because, again, comes back to brand. People want to follow mommy influencers so that they can see her process around her pregnancy, what products did she use once she has the baby, what helps. But I think on the flip side, if you have a controversy like even Rachel on Matt's season, you do see some positive or negatives depending on the situation of that controversy. So Rachel Kirkconnell, there was a spoiler that she had won early on. And I think that's why the news story gained so much traction is She won on the season with the first Black Bachelor, and these photos were resurfaced from her past, and people were following her because they wanted to see what she was going to say, what she was going to do. But then I think once you're off the show, like Demi, and this photo resurfaces of you wearing Confederate flag jacket, it's going to hurt you because people don't necessarily want to follow you to see what's next. Right. Those are great examples. Another good one is just recently we saw, and I don't do analytics like you, but this is just from my brain remembering it. is we saw Michael A was just tagged in a photo with Amanda Clutes because they're from the same

area. And I'm almost 100% sure they're just friends, but people are speculating. His following has gone up 10,000 followers since that photo came out. I was like, oh my God, that's crazy. And I think that comes back to storyline. The storyline for Amanda is that her husband died during the pandemic and people have been grasping at seeing what she's going to do next. Is she going to be happy. Everybody wants her to be happy because he died from COVID. She was probably like they had a child. But when she spotted with somebody from The Bachelor who's attractive and they look really great in that picture together, suddenly people are going to start following them to start tracking their whereabouts to see are they still together? Are they just hanging out? What's happening next?

Wow. Imagine if she was a Bachelorette and then he was on the season. Oh my God, I'd be watching nonstop. That's unbelievable. I would do. Or vice versa. Who knows? That's not our decision. we'll watch either way. You talked about analyzing trends and storylines. Here's one I would task you to analyze if you haven't already. I noticed the correlation. I might get yelled that for this one. I have noticed a correlation that on the Bachelor Nation podcast network,

those hosts have done exceptionally well when they took a break and went on the show. So it would be interesting to see people that are talking. to the show how their success is. For example, Becca was part of their business, the Bachelor and Asian, the tour and everything. Paradise worked out great for her. Following worked out great. Natasha is another example. Joe is another example. That would be a fascinating project for if you haven't done it already. Yeah, I do, I do find that interesting. I also find it interesting the different edits that they got on Paradise also, especially because they were criticizing people who went on a show for followers when they were also benefiting follower-wise off of the show.

So I do think it's interesting. I don't, again, I don't necessarily think it's a bad thing that people go on this show for Instagram followers or for fame or to try to pivot their brands. I think a lot of people look badly on this career of content creator. And I've even gotten DMs where people are like, oh, but you're different. You're different because you're not showing us your family or you're not selling us clothing. Like, well, I'm creating content and you're following me because you like my content. Just because they're a mommy influencer or if they are an influencer that shows their lifestyle,

it doesn't make them bad people. It's just people wanting a different industry and hoping that along the way, they might find love. And if you look at Becca Kufrin, she went on Bachelor in Paradise for another shot at love. She had a ton of followers. She was making money already from The Bachelor podcast. And she found love. She's with Thomas. They're still together.

They're doing great. I don't think it makes them bad people, but I do find it really interesting, the storylines and how they get edited. Fascinating. It's a project. I want to see your workings on it. And it comes back to storyline. And I agree with you. There is not one person that's going on this show. Not one that isn't in their head in some capacity thinking about what their following will be and what the impact of that will have on their careers, their lives and their financial status at this point. Not one. Now, I do think people have different magnitudes and people have different levels. I really didn't. For me, I was like, I'm miserable. in my life right now, I'm just going to go and let's see what happens. And if something like cool thing, project comes from it or I'm asked to do this. Fuck yeah. And if I like like the girl, great. Like so who knows? But I remember there was a guy in our season who is telling me, this was 2018, all about Instagram and how the colors you wear could impact your engagement and the times you post and all this stuff. I'm like, dude, what are you talking about? I'm almost convinced

they probably heard his audio and we're like, we got to get this guy out of here. But I do think in every capacity. People are thinking about that. Now, I want to ask you a question, though. I want to transition to men tell all because I noticed this season, a Michelle season of men tell all, there were some guys speaking literally the entire time. I'd ask myself five times, who is this dude? Like, I kind of like what he's saying. Who is this guy? And it seems like every single men tell all or women tell all, there's someone who steps up for screen time. And they're talking and they're chirping and they're bringing it on. Have you seen success with screen time? in like the after the final rows or the Mentel All and these people that are generating

this controversy and their followings and Instagram success? There's definitely a correlation to increase screen time. They're the ones who come on and they just stir the pot the whole episode and they say the questions that people are having or they call them out, but they don't necessarily correlate to followers. I mean, just this season, the whole Mentel All episode, I was like, who's Casey? And I'm the person who analyzes the show. I watch this every week down to the second analyzing who you.

featured on the screen. So I should know everybody. And I literally have to look back to be like, who was this guy? And he's the one who's calling everybody out and stirring the pot. But I do think it is, it's a good way to get yourself on Paradise that will hopefully propel you later on. But I mean, Casey, this season, he went on Mantella and got a thousand followers out of it, which is nothing. Yeah. And that, that is a one thing that is just so critical. I think is that the people try to get on Paradise. I remember when our show is rapping. And our little group chat of everyone. Everyone was like, yo, did you get asked? Did you get asked? Like, that is a thing that people are trying to do, try out for Paradise to get picked.

So that is a real, real thing that happens. Where the opposite was in my scenario, I'm like, I don't know if I'm going to go. And so you get some of these people are like, I need to be on Paradise. And some people are like, ah, I don't think I should. So that's, and there's that one dude. What's his saying again? Caitlin and Tasha were wrecking him. He was a biotech CEO talking in circles and not answering anything. They put them on the hot seat. And all the guys are like, dude, just admit you're wrong. And all I'm thinking is like, bro, why are you doing this? Like you're spinning circles. You got everyone trashing you for being manipulative. And you're not answering or taking accountability. And you're a CEO of a biotech company. Like, why are you in

this seat? What are you doing? Yeah, I always find it so fascinating, the decisions that people make going on the show, but I also wonder how long the actual mental all was, like how much is edited out, especially once you get to the point where you're analyzing screen time and your first off, you have headphones on, which makes a little bit more obvious. But hearing the differences in the audio and how a sentence can be cut from three different conversations, I wonder how much it's editing and how much was actually answered in person that could have possibly answered the questions that we weren't seeing. Yeah, just wild. All right. Now, what about overall? Has there been like one contestant in your mind or are there any takeaways from contestants

your mind that have like had the greatest growth or the greatest success from the show that you can think of? Tyler Cameron, hands down. There's nobody like Tyler Cameron. He went on the show. I think he had like 5,000 followers before his season started. And by the end of his season, he had over 2 million followers. And there's a very, I can count on one hand the number of people who have hit the 2 million club. And we've never seen somebody do it as quickly as Tyler Cameron did. And what do you think? Why has Tyler Cameron differentiated himself as far as growth than any of the other 500 plus people that have ever been on this show? I think his season was the perfect storm. So Hannah Brown, the original spoiler was that she and Tyler were together. So people

are already excited about him. And then halfway through the season, the spoiler changed that it was actually Jed. And then I think it was a week later, there was a podcast that had Jed's ex-girlfriend come on and said, we were actually together when we left. This was the plan all along. And then Hannah and Jed broke up.

We saw it at the finale. And the finale was edited like Chef's Kiss. It was this storyline building up Jed, as this villain, like they really used Jed as this scapegoat and built up this Hannah storyline because they really wanted her to find love. And then when it ended that she asked Tyler out at the end of the episode to go out for drinks, then, I mean, finale is we already see people gain hundreds of thousands of followers, but they skyrocketed because everybody wanted to follow them. And then they were seen leaving their apartment together first thing in the morning. And then two days later,

he spotted with G.G. Hadid, one of the most famous supermodels in the world. It was, it was the season that didn't stop giving in terms of any type of news story. And everybody wanted to follow along. It was just fascinating. And the quarantine crew happened. People were wondering if they were back together. And it was just a blast to just watch in the moment, but also to analyze with Instagram followers. And then you got Matt James who becomes a bachelor. He goes on dance with a star. And then we get some news article the other day that apparently Hannah Brown's brother is now engaged to Jed's ex-girlfriend. Like, this story doesn't stop. I mean, even Hannah's season, I remember, I'm pulling up the data right now. I was tracking Tyler Cameron. And on Tyler

season, we saw Tyler was constantly with this guy named Matt James in New York City and they were doing stuff with kids. So I actually started tracking. His name in my spreadsheet was Matt Tyler C's friend. So I started tracking him a few weeks into the season and he had 11,000 followers. And then by the end of the season, he had 41,000 followers, which is more than most contestants this season on Michelle's season. Crazy. Absolutely crazy. That was the perfect storm. And that's a great example of someone who's had the most success as far as growth and everything they're seeing. What would you say has been the, would you say that's the most shocking data moments for like Tyler Cameron's growth? Is that the most shocking moment you've seen?

I honestly, I think Brennan and Piper's moment was the most shocking to see because it got to the point during that episode. First off, when the episode happened, my boyfriend was in the other room and he was like, are they talking about you on the show? And then suddenly everybody started tagging me on social media. I mean, that day I saw four. 14,000 new followers on my account, which is the biggest growth day that I've ever had by far. So the biggest growth that you've ever had is a result of measuring Brandon Piper's Instagram bomb correlated to their strategy? And I think that that makes sense, though, because if you look at news media outlets today,

the big conversation is now post the election is how they're all struggling with viewer ratings. And nobody's watching the news like they were back when Donald Trump was president. And I think it's one of those things that my account sees the biggest growth when there's controversy on the show, which adds a layer of reporting ethics for me is I need to make sure that I'm covering the news without bias to make sure I'm not doomsday reporting. So it is a balance, but I think that day when people started tag me being like, oh my God, their Instagram followers are changing. And I'd literally refresh it and see hundreds of people unfollow. following Brendan in seconds, it was the biggest reaction that I've seen from anything on this franchise. Wow. Fascinating to hear from your perspective. And speaking of Doomsday, I got to ask you about Dooms Day in Bachelor Nation breakups. We've seen a lot of them lately, right? You've

seen Zach and Tasia, who are so beloved. You've seen Katie and Blake, now Katie in another relationship. You see Peter and Kelly. You've seen Claire and Dale. Have you analyzed the impact of engagement and in social media following from these breakups and these Bachelor nation doomsday challenges that we're seeing over and over? A thousand percent. I mean, when breakups happen off the show, not on the show, but off the show, people lose followers. Claire and Dale, each time they broke up, they were losing followers.

Katie, she lost followers after her and Blake broke up. But then when a new relationship forms, when Katie started to date John, John Spicey. tens of thousands of followers. And I think that also comes from people just to know who he was since he was eliminated so early. But there's definitely a correlation. But in general, when people break up, they lose followers. Fascinating conclusion from the Bachelor Nation couples. All right, what about TikTok? We're talking a lot about Instagram today. But what type of growth have we seen from TikTok? And is the way that TikTok is growing as a forum growing in the same way for contestants that get off the show? So I think when it comes to TikTok for contestants on this show,

if they had a big following, they also have a big following on TikTok. So if you look at Hannah Brown, Maddie, they're great examples that they have millions of followers over there as well. I do see that there's a struggle right now for contestants to really make it on TikTok. But if you think about it, TikTok blew up during the pandemic. And since the pandemic started, we've had we had Bachelorette, Bachelor, and then we had two Bachelorette seasons. So since the pandemic started and TikTok blew up, we've had three seasons of male contestants come through and only one season of female contestants come through. So what I'm really interested in is looking at Clayton's women, which we already seeing, they're sharing their TikToks on their stories. I'm really interested

to see how this cast is really going to utilize TikTok and how they're going to start building brands and changing how people monetized from the show. Interesting. And so you're starting to see a difference in the platforms, especially with Clayton Season. Something I've also noticed, and probably from your account, is it looks as though they did pick a lot of people with big followings for Clayton's season. Do you have any information on that?

Yeah. So we have on his season, I actually pulled their numbers here for us to take a look at, four people with over 10,000 followers on Instagram. And normally what a lot of people ask is do spoilers play an impact on how many followers these people have? Now, if we look at the top four most followed people from Clayton's season, there's only one person who's gained 2,000 more followers than they were announced before they started filming. And the people with the most number of followers have hardly moved. So for the most part, from the seasons that I've analyzed, about half of them, spoilers have played an impact. And then the other ones, spoilers haven't played an

impact. So Zach and Tasha is my favorite example. Zach was like the fourth or fifth most followed person. And it was not obvious from the data that Tasha had picked him, even though the spoilers were out there. So I want to throw that out there. Spoilers don't always show in the data, but sometimes they do. Like the season, Nate, the spoiler was out early. You could see all season that he was the winner with the followers. So it really depends on the season. But the four most followed women are Genevier, Gene, Malina, and Sarah. But what I find really interesting about them is that they all have four very different brands. So we have two that are kind of model influencer type of people, but then we have

one that is a social media director, fascinated to see what she'll do. And then another, that's a fitness focused kind of influencer. So really interested to see how they're going to do. But the one thing that we will see, whoever makes it to Final Four, they're going to have a ton of followers compared to other people on this show. Why? And because we see them more. And there's more of a storyline built up for them. Right.

Every season, Final Four, they're going to have more than 100,000 followers. And I think, especially now that we're finally getting another women-filled season, I think we're going to start seeing people break 100,000 followers much faster. All right. I cannot wait to see the analysis from Clayton's season. That is going to be awesome. The last question I have is we see a lot of people do big things after they're on the show. They become hosts.

We just saw Colton have a Netflix series called Coming Out Colton. Saw Hannah just had a New York Times bestseller. Have you done any analysis to see the impact that these events that have no correlation whatsoever to the show but are still very involved in the public I have on their Instagram following and social media engagement? I have in small amounts. So Maddie is one that fascinates me because she does have a very different niche that we don't see with a lot of contestants from this show. But I think it's more interesting to see how are they doing it. So Hannah Brown, for example, she just launched a book. And she had been up and down most days before she launched her book.

And now she's gaining like 200 followers a day. But when you're over 2 million followers, how much is that? But think about Maddie. if she goes to speak at a church, let's say out in Houston, I think she did that recently. That was one of the ones that I analyzed. If she goes to speak to a church, there's going to be what,

two, three hundred people there, maybe a thousand. Sure. If she gets maybe half of those people who now follow her on Instagram, it doesn't so much matter that she gained a couple hundred followers when she has, what, 1.7 million followers,

but now she has people who will potentially buy her book when she talks about her book. So I think it's really interesting to see more about how are they using their brand to make income. And even if it's 100 people that follow her, well, if 100 people buy her book, how much money is she going to make from that? And this is precisely why someone with a following of $2 million could do less gross revenue than someone like yourself with over $100,000 because it's about the engaged follower, how willing they are to spend on what you're putting out. And if you can, you think about to the, to the follower, like Facebook does, right? So what Facebook will do in their quarterly meetings is they're analyzing how much they're making per user. And that's very similar in this world.

And if you have a smaller audience, but it's very niche and focused on what you're doing, like Maddie, religious speaking and inspiration stuff, they may spend more because they're engaged, even though you have less following than you used to. So that's something that is immeasurable in this world, correlating followers to actually. revenue. I think one of my favorite examples in this conversation is Tyler Cameron, the most false mail from this show. Now, I don't have any confirmation on this. I do need to say that, but I would argue that Tyler Cameron probably makes less off of his social media than somebody like Ali Fedatowski does. Ali has half of his followers. And she even teetheers around whether or not she has a million or not. She dropped for a while and now she's around it. I would argue that she makes more money than Tyler Cameron, even though she has half the follower account, because

she has a lot of engaged followers around her lifestyle as a mother. Totally. I would agree with that. And I think the other thing, too, is output, right? When you're constantly putting out stories in posts and blogs, there's so much more opportunity to mix in ads in which viewers, whether organic or not, when viewers might not even recognize it. So that is also a big one.

Fascinating stuff, though, Susanna. The work you're doing is really, really cool. No one else is doing it, which makes it so special. before we leave, we got to get a trading secret. It could be anything. It'll be about analysis that you have found, something you can leave us with. It could be about the track you've taken from being in the public education system to now an entrepreneur. What would your trading secret be a lesson that someone couldn't find in a classroom, reading the textbook or Google based on your career navigation? What do you got for us, Susanna? I would say the biggest secret right now is that digital courses is the next big thing that no one's tapping. into. There's so much potential there, and the best part is, is that it's passive income once you make it. That digital courses, there it is. I've heard this over and over and over again, and it's not just coming from you, Susanna. It's coming from many people. So find your niche, guys, see what it is, build a course around it. And then once you do that, I mean, you could do live sessions, books.

It's really endless. So, Susanna, congratulations on all your success. It's been so fun to get to know you and learn more about the trends that you're finding and also to hear about your career past story. Anybody that's not following you or is interested in your Excel program or anything else you have going on. Susanna, where can they find all of it? Bachelor data on Instagram, TikTok, and my course is under Thinkific, under the name Bachelor Data. That is awesome. Thank you so much for being on here. Congratulations on everything you have going on. All this information is so, so interesting, especially as we're going into a new season of Patrick with Clayton.

So we will stay tuned for that. We look forward to your analysis. And thank you so much for being with us today. Thanks for having me. Ding, ding, ding. We are ringing in the bell with the one and only, the voice of the viewer, the curious Canadian himself, David Ardoin.

Man, we have a lot to cover. We talked about screen time, the impact of screen time, top 10 websites, villains. Talked about Tyler Cameron and Ali Fedatowski, who makes more money. Maddie Pruitt strategy, the Bachelor Nation podcast, niching down,

I mean, we literally covered a ton. And I always like when we cover a ton because the voice of the viewer gives us a direction of really what stuck out to him. So I'm turning over to you. David Ardwin, the one and only. You listen to the podcast. What are your thoughts?

Well, I always love having guests on that are relatable. And she was really relatable for two reasons. One, she has lied about being proficient in Excel. And I just feel like that's a very human being early 20s, mid-20s, early 30s trait. We've all done it. You've done it. I've done it. 100%. Number two is, and you know this, but I don't know in the depth that you may remember it, but I was bachelor data before she was batched data. What are you talking about? I feel like

this is, by the way, the most David thing ever, like claiming you were something before someone but not doing it. So let me, like, tell me what, justify that comment. I was excited for her to come on the pod because I have something, as you know, I should be an Excel guy, but I'm a notes guy. You're not an Excel. I have a category in my notes called Bachelor Instagrams from November of 2018 that I tracked during your season on the show. And I have some names on here tracking their Instagram growth that you probably wouldn't even remember we're on your season.

All right. Just for evidence. I know people listening can't see this evidence. I need evidence. Put it up to the screen. Let me see what you're even talking about. So this is the notes section. Give me the date.

Oh, wow. my God. Okay, guys, what I'm looking at is it's a notepad. And it has all the names of people from the season I was on with Becca in season 17. And it has following with a slash. Then it has another following with kickoff. And then it has slash another following finale. Wow, you were bachelor data, except you didn't know how to use Excel either. No. So I had them all before they went on the show. Wait, and am I on that list? You are not because I just know you're just ingrained in my brain. So what was my, wait, well, I don't know mine. What was my following? before the show during and then finale.

You're following before the show was 700. Okay. Oh my God, really? That's wild. When you got kicked off the show, it was roughly around the like 300 mark, 250 to 300 mark. That's what I remember. And you went on this meteoric, as she talked about,

this meteoric top four after the final rose. You weren't at the Mentel All, were you? I was at Mentel All, not after Final Rose. okay you went on all these shows and had a really great showing and you went up like a hundred you went up a hundred thousand in one day i remember in twenty wow i see i remember that that like it was like yeah the three i remember being kicked off of like the three range and ending around like the four something range yeah and then i think you were right around the mid fives and then obviously when you started dating kb like you talked about that just rallied bachelor nation and that kind

got you over the seven and then you've just been plugging away wild all right well those are my numbers. What about the numbers? So people from my season I think are still really in the game. You got Colton, you got Blake Horsman, you got grocery store Joe. Do you have any of their numbers? Yeah, Joe started low. He was in the thousand range as well. He ended after one night being on the show at the end of the season, he ended with 152,000 followers.

Okay. He then was at 500 or 495, his first go around to Paradise. And then he now was 1.1 million. Yeah, that's crazy because Joe had, if you think about Joe's run, he went, he was kicked off night one, she should do a whole investigation on grocery store Joe, kicked off night one, then goes on Paradise, ends up in a bachelor relationship with two very beloved people, Kendall, then ends up on dancing with the stars, then ends up back on Paradise and ends up, he's the King of Paradise and has another huge, amazing edit.

He's having these huge edits, by the way, he's a great guy, and now he's with Serena. Yeah, so he has had a crazy run, $1.1.1 million. How about Colton? What was he at before the show? I actually don't have his before the show here, but I remember him being around. Like, I think he was like five figures, like $10K because he was dating the old relationship with Allie Raisman.

Yeah, and where is he now? Or where was he then? He was $680,000 after he got kicked off the show. He was $823,000 after the finale, and now he's at $2 million. Wild. All right. You were Bachelor-Data before she was.

Those are interesting facts. now give me some of your top takeaways from the episode yeah i think my top takeaways i'm going to start with just like overall we're talking instagram we're talking growth like you've talked so many times about how everyone who goes on the show it's it's part of the reason they go on is for just growth so i want i want to get your opinion on like maybe your specific or your opinion on strategy whether it's a villain strategy to go on the show strategy to gain followers but your personal strategy is now like and then i got a couple i got an opinion on this too if someone told me i'm going on the show and I want to gain followers. I would say the worst thing you could humanly do,

the worst thing you could do is try and be the loudmouth or the villain. Do not be the loud mouth. Do not be the villain because it's the people that are successful on this show is exactly what she said. It's the storyline. What is your storyline? Are you likable? Is your story endearing? Do you have more to provide than just starting and drawing up drama of bullshit? Like what is your family history? Like what has brought you to who you are to? today. People want that relatable content, and that's what they want to do to follow. And it does seem like the underdog story is always more advantageous for following. So don't be a villain, be yourself, don't be an asshole, and bring something thoughtful and relatable to who you are

and be vulnerable with it. And that's how, if you want a following, I think you'll get a following by being yourself and staying true to those things. Do you think that being a villain as a strategy is almost like a 15 minutes of fame? It's just really, there's just no. Maybe when you're walking in the airport or something, you're more recognizable because you have more screen time. But there's, I would say it's not 15 minutes of fame. It's like a two minutes of fame. Would you put any, and this is my opinion here, would you put insight or what can you tell me about this opinion that I have? So in terms of increasing your following, maybe post show.

Okay. Tatia, not a host, becomes the host of the Boucher podcast. Now she's a host of the show and she's like front girl number one. Joe was lost in outer space for a little bit there and between his Paradise stints all of a sudden he's now host on the Bachelor podcast

he's now on Paradise he gets a great edit ever he's with Serena he's over a million followers Joe's crushing it Natasha she's awesome but she got the cream of the crop edit

in Paradise host Bachelor podcast she went from 100,000 followers to half a million followers Becca had a great run on the show she was kind of out of the spotlight for a bit they bring her back to host a podcast now she's back in the game. She's on Paradise.

She got the great edit, great girls with a great guy. Now she's crushing it. She's back on, you know, she's at the finale. She's kissing Thomas in the background while B. Mac Jones and Michelle are getting grilled in the after the final rows.

These people are all back and relevant. Do you think that there's any connection to, and I'm curious because I don't know the answer, people who host Bachelor podcast that show the show in a good light. And is there any like ownership control? There has to be. I mean, listen, I'm going to watch what I say here because I don't want to get in trouble. But those are interesting observations you made.

And there is no way based on those observations that you made that you can't draw a parallel, period. Right. I mean, that is just the name of the game. I mean, I don't think, I think Tisha, when she started hosting on that podcast, I don't think she was the Bachelorette at that point. She was the host, then called the Bachelorette, and she did a wonderful job, and she's done a wonderful job hosting. But there's, and this isn't discredit to any of those people. I love Joe. I think Tasha is unbelievable at what she's doing with her branding and on the show.

Becca is fucking awesome. But we're not taking away from them. I'm just saying based on those observations, both of those things you just said, there's an absolute direct correlation that if you're in with that group, before you go on the next show, you are going to get an unbelievable edit. And it makes sense because if you're relevant and you get an unbelievable,

edit and your followers are up, what are you doing? You're promoting the podcast. People want to hear you. You're getting more downloads and therefore making that show more successful. So, you know, interesting observation and there's no way you can present what you just presented to anyone and them say, no, there's no tie to it. Does ABC own those podcasts? I don't know exactly the ownership model. I would say in general with most of this stuff, NZK is a production company. They've produced the Bachelor. Bachelorette, Bachelor, all the series since day one, and then they will sell the final product to ABC, or they have some type of agreement with ABC. So I would assume probably NZK, ABC's the end user.

This is how it works with every show, right? Like Netflix, there's a production company. They produce it, and then they try and sell it, right? So this isn't like anything breaking news, but yeah. All right, let's turn the page on the past and look at the present. Talked a little bit about Clayton's season. Did you watch the first episode in the theme of Bachelor data? You know, with the girls that you see and Clayton, do you think we're going to get back to this meteoric rise in followers? And do you have any like premier numbers, anything?

I know your numbers, guys. I'm sure you got some locked and loaded there. Here's my take on The Bachelor. I think followings will go up significantly here. I think they're going to go up significantly in accordance to previous seasons. I don't think they will touch the Colton Hannah season. That's just my guess.

Why am I saying that? Because of exactly what Bachelor data said. TikTok is now the number one website that people in the world are going to. So even if the following was going to go up at the same rate of Hannah and Colton, people aren't using Instagram at the same rate they were before. So I don't think they will, but I think they'll go up much higher than Matt season and Katie season and Tasha and Claire's season. We will see. That's my prediction.

Because of what she said, though, it's a female-based audience watching the show. And it's a female-based cast. It's not like The Bachelorette. But let's just go to ratings real quick. Now, as for usual with The Bachelor, they stole Monday night. They are the highest rated show on television Monday night. But it does look like if you look at year over year from when Matt James was The Bachelor, they earned a 0.9 rating. And they were in the demographic, because this is how they analyze it, demographic of 18 to 49 age bracket.

They got in around 3.75 million viewers, which was down about 1.5 million from the year prior. So the year prior, there were over 5 million viewers in that demo. This year, it was 3.75. So while they stole Monday night, the total viewing audience was down significantly, which again tells me this following will not be at the same level of Hanna's season, Colton season, Peter's season. You said TikTok is the goat. Does that make you, and just finding out if the number one visited website in the world last year,

does that make you even more excited for our Heidi D'Amelio episode coming up? It sure does. I can't wait for that. And it also makes me say, like, I got to put more attention to TikTok. And you'll see any celebrity, any influencer, any familiar face. Their TikTok presence is growing by the minute and their following is growing by the minute. Now, I did fact-checked her. And she is right.

The top 10 most popular domains, 2021, I'll read the list. Number one's TikTok. Two is Google. Three, Facebook, four Microsoft, five Apple, six Amazon, seven Netflix, eight YouTube, nine Twitter, 10, what's at? That's wild. So, Facebook number three. Top 10 most popular domain, domain.

So that was most popular domains in late 2021. This is late 2020. Google, Facebook, Microsoft, Apple, Netflix, Amazon, TikTok, YouTube, Instagram, Twitter. So Instagram's not even on the list in 2021. And TikTok was number seven. Now, number one. Just really interesting stuff. All right.

I know we're running out of time, but I got some questions that I need your opinion on. Fire away. Give me an old David Ardoin rapid fire. She said Tyler Cameron, Ali Fedatowski, okay? She said, Allie makes more money on her Instagram than Tyler, despite having half the following. Agree or disagree? On social media, I probably agree. But I would say that the deals that Tyler is getting thrown at him right now as far as like the brands and the dollar amounts and just like the relevancy of it and getting placed in the movies, like he's getting unbelievable opportunity.

But I bet if you'd look at the dollars and cents, she's probably making as a. much, if not more. He's like Hansel from Zuland. Tyler, so hot right now. She talked a lot about niching yourself. We've talked a lot about people who have branded Gillian Harris, KB, yourself, people in the, you know, Nick Vial

who have niched themselves in a good way. Do you have any examples of people who have niche themselves in a bad way who go on the show and try niche themselves or off the show trying niche themselves in a bad way and it hurts their following and kind of diminishes what they can do as an influencer? Yeah, I mean, that's a good question, David.

I think the big thing there is The two things I personally would, and she proved me wrong here, Batchita, I would stay away from politics and religion unless you are an expert in the field, right? If you studied political science and you've been in politics and you know the game and you know how it works and you know the history, go for it. But unless you're an expert in the field, I'd stay away from it. The other one with religion is you better know religion like the back of your hand and you better not be a hypocritical asshole. Maddie clearly is not that. She knows the, she knows religion, she knows the Bible, she speaks it every day. So I give her credit for doing it and doing

it successfully. But those are two that I think are tough to niche down in. And if you think that you're a niche by going on there and promoting your music career, your fitness career, you're not niche. That's usually the recipe for disaster, right? Keep the ukuleleys at home, people. Keep the ukuleleys at home. Here's one, and this is kind of my last question that I have for you, and I'm really interested on it. Why don't you think ABC promotes contestants' Instagram handles on their promotions when they put them on their ABC Bachelet official pages, unlike shows like Love is Blind, basically too hot to handle any other Netflix shows, MTV shows. Why do you think ABC does not promote the contestants' Instagram handles? I have been trying to figure that out for so long.

And I don't know if it's a control thing. Like, why would they give their, I mean, they're already giving the platform. I think it's probably that there's so much negative connotation, with people that go on the show and get these followings and become overnight familiar-faced celebrity-type people and that everyone says it's the only reason they go on is for following and they probably just don't want to support that cause but you would think about it like if people had large followings they'll be able to promote the show more you think it would be an overall more impactful thing like if if your people from your show have greater following they can make greater impressions, which all eventually probably leads back to the source of where this came from,

the show. I want to say that Mike Fleiss is a guy that has a lot of show integrity in terms of people come to the show to find love, but I'd also like to think Mike Fleiss cares about ratings more than everything. And I just think we're seeing with the Joe Gallier's episode and all this influencer marketing, why, if you could have and promote these people to build your brand for more eyeballs to see it and attach these characters to your show, you're going to get better ratings. ratings, I would love to see one experimental season where they just promote the contestants

and the quote unquote talent on the show like they never have before and see ratings-wise on the TV how much it helps and then Instagram follower-wise as well. I don't know if it will ever happen, but... Here's how I could get hired by ABC. This could be it, right? I think what they need to do is test it for one year. They promote the shit out of every single person on the show. They put their Instagram handles everywhere. Then they start an agency. So when you sign on that contract, you have to take 10%, 5%, 20% of your Instagram following, and you have to write it back to the production because they're the ones that give it to you. Within this agreement, you create an agency yourself. You then

teach these people how to deal with Instagram, what to do, what not to do, how to grow social media. Therefore, you're making money in your pocket. You're helping them grow their audience the right way. you're avoiding them doing dumb shit or at least giving them the tools to not do dumb shit and you're probably making a ton of money all while ratings are increasing because more faces

and more people are paying attention to the franchise. That would be my strategy. Try it for a year, guarantee it works. You know how I could get hired by ABC? Let's hear it. I think I should be the play-by-play as an option when you watch The Bachelor. It's like you watch The Bachelor

and just like sports, how like you're watching sports but there's a play-by-play guy. Like, I want to be live play-by-play commenting, live re-react. Eli and Peyton on Monday Night Football. Is that what you're thinking? 100%.

Just sitting there kind of commenting what I'm seeing. Like, oh, no, that's not really going to happen. Oh, my gosh, you just did that. What is this girl wearing? That's the worst limo, actually, I've seen. This girl's top three. I'll take money off it. Here's my odds.

Like, I want to be play-by-play like for the people. All right. Well, you know what? Maybe we'll do either the finale or the next episode one. We'll go play-by-play live on Instagram. I love it. Okay. Good stuff.

Anything else, David? No. Great episode. Beautiful. David, love the breakdown. Love the Amel. I had no idea your bachelor data before bachelor data became bachelor data. That being said, guys, if you enjoyed this episode, please remember to give us a five-star review. Add any feedback.

We see your comments. I'm reading them all the time. We got a lot of really, really good feedback. We got guest ideas. People have emailed us, like, go get this guest, and instantly I respond, and then we go asks for that guest. So we got one feedback in the reviews. Like, stop swearing so much. I listen to my kids. We're listening. We're watching. Give us reviews. Please, we want to continue to make this. show the best show for you. But thank you for tuning into another episode of Trading Secrets 1. We hope that you can't afford to miss. Thank you.

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