Trading Secrets - 50: The Truth Behind Molly Bloom’s High-Stakes Underground Poker Games for Hollywood's Elites and Wall Street’s Billionaires

Episode Date: May 2, 2022

Check out The Restart Roadmap: Rewire and Reset Your Career now!   In this week’s episode, Jason is joined by Molly Bloom as they dive into the mysterious world of poker and the massive dollars associated with it. Molly reveals untold details of her fascinating story that was made into an Oscar-nominated movie called “Molly’s Game” and later a best-selling book. At the height of her poker career, Molly was hosting underground poker games for the entertainment industry’s elite in luxurious hotel suites at the Beverly Hills Hotel, the Peninsula, and the Four Seasons. How does the 3rd best skier in North America get cut off financially by her parents and end up becoming the point connection of the Russian mafia and Hollywood celebrities in one of the largest and most publicized Ponzi schemes of all time? Dealing with some of the biggest names in Hollywood and professional sports — including A-Rod, Leonardo DiCaprio, and Tobey Maguire — you might be wondering how generously these celebrities tipped. In the episode, Molly shares the most she has ever earned in tips from a game and other exciting details in another episode that you cannot afford to miss.   Host: Jason Tartick Voice of Viewer: David Arduin Executive Producer: Evan Sahr   Sponsors: TheFarmersDog.com/secrets for 50% off and free shipping   Produced by Dear Media.

The following podcast is a dear media production. Welcome back to another episode of Trading Secrets. Today you're diving into the mysterious world of poker with someone who has one of the most fascinating stories of all time, the personal favorite. In fact, so fascinating that her life, Life was produced into a big-time film featuring some Hollywood's most famous A-listers, including Jess.

Oh, wow, we got some big names in here. Kevin Costner, Jeremy Strong. There's some big ones, Ms. Elba. And her name is Molly Blue, and her movie is called Molly's Game. Her plan growing up wasn't to run poker games, though she actually was a very talented athlete, third in the nation, for ski and training to compete at the Olympics, and she unfortunately crashed on her qualifying run. So how did she go from skiing to poker?

Well, luckily, she's here to tell us the story. And of course, we're here to get into all the details about money and the whole poker industry, which I am wildly obsessed with. So Molly, thank you so much for being with us today. Yeah, I'm so happy to be here. Thanks for having me. Absolutely. And Molly and I were just talking a little bit before we got going.

Molly just had her first baby. So what a huge congratulations to you. That is so exciting. Thank you. What was more time-consuming? managing a baby as your first or dealing with underground poker games and all the craziness that went with it. Because both of them, I'm sure, were late nights and crazy times. That's right. They're pretty similar in terms of the hours that you keep. It's kind of a 24-7 thing

without a lot of sleep. So, you know, I had some early life training to prepare me for taking care of an infant. I love it. That is good stuff. And one of the things, Molly, I've heard you on so many different interviews. And a lot of people talk about, you know, your big ski accident, you knew you were going to be a skier, you wanted to be a skier, you had an accident during qualifying for the Olympics and it changed your course. I don't want to get too much into detail. But what I want to know is what were some things that you did to get out of rock bottom when you thought your entire life was going in one direction and one mishap on one qualifying run completely changed a direction? Like how did you actually propel yourself out of that rock bottom scenario?

I think if you want the simple answer and sort of the most profound thing I can speak to, it's starting to exert some management over your mindset because, you know, I've been up, I've been down, I've had a sort of like million doovers. And the thing that got me to the finish line each time was this ability to reframe, recalibrate, you know, let the past go, get into it. to the present moment and restart. And I think it has to do with how agile your mind is and what how much agency you have over your thoughts, your actions, and kind of turning that around. Interesting. And so when you did turn it around, so no longer skiing anymore,

it's my understanding you go to L.A. You talk about the fact, you know what, it's great weather there, maybe some opportunity. But your parents didn't support that decision, did they? No. And so did they cut you off completely before like when you made that move yeah and my family the kind of deal was we'll support you for your if you're in school if you're not in school then you're on your own i decided to take a year off in between undergrad and law school and so my parents said you're on your own wow okay so that's a big thing about restarting not only are you restarting in a direction that's different than what you anticipated but you're restarting in a direction that maybe mom and dad and family aren't, like, completely approving of.

So what was your trajectory? What did it look like for you? What was your plan when you went to L.A.? So I literally went to L.A. for a year, and my intention was to be warm for a year because I had been, you know, chasing winter my whole life. I was a professional skier. And I guess I just wanted to be warm. And I also kind of wanted to be a kid because I had had this very regimented life.

And so I went to L.A. for those two reasons. That's it. And then I was going to head to law school. And that was the plan. And, you know, I got a million jobs in L.A. as you have to do when you're broke. And one of the jobs was working for this guy. And he had a lot of, he had a big network. And he wanted to throw a poker game. And he wanted me to serve drinks at it. And I knew nothing about poker. And I knew nothing about this world. And this game ended up being a game that was attended by some, of the people that you see on CNBC, that you see attending the Oscars, that you see, you know, like having started the most prolific tech companies in the world, it was just people that had major influence and power in the world. And so it was, you know, when I was in my early 20s, and I recognized that there was a massive opportunity there, not only to sort of have access to people with money and power, but also information and to build a network. And so I was very fascinated by this world, but also by the opportunity. And that's the crazy thing about poker is in one table, you could have some of the most elite

in the educational world, in like leadership world, in celebrity world, in mafia world. I mean, it brings all the circles together, which is wild. And I want to get into some of those details, and we will, because the dollars and cents guys behind the things that Molly got into is wild. and I can't wait to explore it. I want to go back just one step before because I think it's a lot more relatable in the fact that you move to L.A., you're taking a bunch of jobs. And it's my understanding.

I heard in one interview you described that you only had $1,700 in your savings account. So if for you was a plan like I'm going to find someone in some capacity and build something, or were you just thinking, I'll do it for a year? And if I run out of money, I'm going to go home. Because I think that's such a relatable thing, right? now that people have a little bit of savings and they're just kind of taking a shot at a city and I'm curious what your plan was if the poker route or the introduction to that didn't work out. So I never, I was very intent on going to law school. I studied for really hard for the LSATs.

You know, I had done well on the LSATs. I had a really high GPA. You know, I was, I was all in on that. And then, you know, I came into this, I stumbled down this rabbit hole, if you will. And, and, and, and, had this opportunity as I sought to make a lot of money, save a lot of money, build an incredible network, and then go to law school. And with each year that went by, I became less and less interested in going to law school. Makes sense. All right. So take me back to that moment where your boss does say, hey, we need you to run a poker game because it's my understanding you didn't really know much about it. And you said in a couple interviews, you're like, I put my cutest self it on and I was just like, we'll give it a shot. What were your expectations like? And how did the

night end up, your first night? Did you make some big money, big relationships? What was it like after the first night that you were hosting or part of hosting an underground poker game? So that first night, my role was to serve drinks. Okay. He was like, try not to embarrass yourself and just serve drinks, you know? And so yeah, you're right. I went home and I, I was very curious about what I was going to do and how to sort of show up and not look like a complete novice. So I was Googling things about poker. And I, you know, I was, it was pretty innocent. I was like, what kind of music to poker players like to listen to you? And what do they eat? Because I wanted to, you know, sort of like go above and beyond if I could in places that I could.

So I made this really embarrassing playlist with songs like the gambler on it. And like moves, you know. I'm like a little kid from Loveland, Colorado. I don't know anything, you know? And I go to Gelson's and I get this like very run-of-the-mill non-fancy cheese plate and yeah, put on my like my nicest dress, which was like not that nice and showed up to this game. And then, you know, as these players start to show up and I start to realize who they are and where I am, you know, you have this like very self-conscious moment of, oh my God, I've made a playlist with the gambler on. Did you put crazy game of poker on that playlist or no. Oh, God, no. I was like Googling. And it was like, you know, the cheesiest most

cliche songs and in walks like the head of one of the biggest investment banks in the world and Ben Affleck and, you know, like a politician that everyone knows. And it was, you know, you have this very self-conscious moment of I am so small and they are so big, you know, but then that's where the shift comes in, right? Where you can go, who care? Who care? Who cares. Like, this is an opportunity. And then at the end of the end, something else for talking about dollars and cents, people were tipping me in chips. And I realized at the end of the night and real quick, how much I love the economics when someone is using a token to signify money, you know, so I made like $3,000 at the end of the night for refilling diet coax. And plus for the six hours,

I was there, got to be a fly on the wall in this kind of secret clandestine underground club for Masters of the Universe, you know? So I was, I was in. I was so, I found it so intriguing and compelling and promising. And how long was this game going on before your boss said, like, I'd wanted to rope you and like, is this something that he had going for a long, long time? Or was this a new venture? No, this was a new, this was a new game. This, you know, they were playing at each other's houses always. That had always existed. And then he wanted to throw the game on a weekly basis in the same location. And I served drinks for that game for eight months until I started my own game. Okay. I love that and I want to get into that. One thing I

got to ask you is your first night when you see the people like Ben Affleck and all them gambling and stuff. Did he preface you by telling you, like, there's going to be monster celebrities and the elite of the elite there? Did you just walk in and were like, holy shit? So he, the first night, I didn't, he was just like, there's going to be a lot of, like, you know, I think he said that there's just going to be a lot of big people there or something, something that wasn't totally clear. And then, you know, like a month in, he would give me the names and numbers of these people to invite. But I wasn't, you know, I wasn't given access to them in the beginning. Got it. And paint a picture for me. If someone's listening at home, so they're thinking,

okay, Molly was an assistant. The assistant says we're going to get this poker game. She's dressed up, serving drinks. And then Ben Affleck and all these people are here. What does an underground game look like? Because I think a lot of people might have a couple ideas. Someone might be thinking like this extreme beautiful mansion. Some people might be thinking like you go into a dungeon. you knock three times. Like, what is there security? Are there cameras or their pass codes to get in? Tell me the like setup.

Okay. So when the game first started, it was in the basement of a very famous rock and roll club on Sunset Boulevard. Okay. Totally infamous place. There was this big security guard outside the door. The whole place is like painted black. You know, you have to go through this like back door. Yeah.

And it's kind of, you know, it's, it was like rock and roll. It wasn't glamorous or beautiful. It was grungy and, you know, seedy, even though the people that were sitting at the table were worth the GDP of a small country. But when I took over the game, I moved it. I want, you know, I changed the aesthetic a lot. And I wanted it to feel like you were in a James Bond movie. Okay. So we're going to transition from the game that you were part of to your game. one second. But the game that you were just the assistant at for a minute, when those people would come in, were they just bringing cash? And what were the limits on just the game when you were not, when it wasn't Molly's game when you were working at the other game? What did those limits look like? And was it cash only? Cash only. And it was a $10,000 buy-in. And I think the blinds were 2550, but I can't remember. And are they playing no limit? Is it no one to hold them? Is that what they're playing?

playing no limit hold them for sure okay all right guys stay tuned for the recap if you don't know the game in the recap i'm going to tell you about the game i'm also going to tell you about my experiences i've played in a couple underground games nothing like this but we'll talk about it okay so in that eight months molly how much do you think you made for that eight months did your role change or were you just serving drinks the entire time i was just serving drinks but i was you know i was trying to figure out how to become important to these people so you know i would hear somebody say, I need a reservation at this restaurant. And I knew how to, you know, from working for a very difficult boss who was like, I don't care if you can't get a reservation at that

restaurant, just get it anyway if you want to keep your job. You know, so I had to become like creative and resourceful. So I would hear someone say that at the table, I get them a reservation. I, you know, I memorized everyone's favorite drink order, their food order, so I would just have it for them. I tried to like become important in their lives. or I tried to solve their problems when I wasn't asked to. I was trying to, you know, forge relationships. And so, you know, and then I started inviting the, you know, reaching out to the players. And then when they were owed money or I needed to, I would collect money or I would pay the

winners. And so my role became, started to become a bit more expanded. Okay. Which allowed me to really cultivate these relationships and to start to understand who these people are and what matters to them. And just in those lessons, guys, there are so many sales and networking techniques about like how you can take a relationship and move it to the next level and make yourself so you are not expensive, right?

So there are so many companies out there, you get hired, you get fired, and you're gone. But if you have those relationships, no one can take those from you. While we are free agents at work, those relationships are sticky. And that even goes for an underground game. So it's a huge takeaway that Molly just gave us. Molly, when you were working in the poker game, how much did you make in the eight months versus how much you were making as like an assistant? I was making in one night what I was making in a month.

Which was around how much? Like between $3,000 to $5,000. And tips you'd be making $3,000 to $5,000? Yeah. Wow. That is unbelievable. All right. So you're doing that for eight months.

And everything I have read or seen is you actually got $1,000. fired from the job. Is that right? And if so, why did you get fired? So my boss, I almost said his name. We could edit it out. We're not live. My boss at the time was under a ton of pressure and had all these different companies. And he felt as though I was more interested in the poker game than I was in showing up and doing a great job being his assistant. And he was absolutely right. Well, no shit. You're You're making one night, what you're making in a month there. Yeah. But the truth is, is that I, so he, about a couple months in, he's like, I'm not going to pay you anymore.

I'm not paying you anymore a salary for being my assistant. You're getting paid by the poker game. So I was having to show up, you know, and work really hard at this office and deal with some, you know, pretty sort of like unreasonable human beings. And it's just crazy, the crazy antics that went down in the office. And I was doing that. And then I was also helping to run this game. And he just got frustrated and he said, you're just, you're not bringing the same, you're not bringing your A game to the office.

So I'm taking the poker game away from you. And you're going to just come back to the office and work there full time. And I was, I thought he was bluffing. And then he had this girl reach out to me for the names and numbers of the players. And I was like, I have to make a move. Wow. Unbelievable. So is that at that point, is that when you took off from that job and started your own game?

Yeah. So the next week, he was going to be out of town. Okay. And so I love it. I set up my game and invited all the players except for him. And I did it in a way that was sort of aligned with this vision I had of how to do these games that I thought, you know, this is the company that I want to create. I want to create this company that produces these events and this is how I see it happening.

You know, you walk into this room and you're like put into flow state, right? Like every, there's beautiful music and flowers. The temperature is perfect. There's scented candles. You're in the penthouse suite at, you know, the four seasons in Beverly Hills. You've got this, you know, Cuban cigars and the best scotch. and there's a whole staff of people there that know who you are and what you care about and what you want to drink and eat.

And, you know, so just like producing this incredible experience. And so that's what I did. And we also raised the stakes. Okay. From 10 to $50,000. So you couldn't walk in the door unless you bought in $50K. Right. And so were the limits the same?

Was it still $25.50? No, it was $50, $500. Okay. 50-100. Guys, if you're confused on what that means, again, I'll break that down in the recap, but stay with us here. So 50-100, 50-K to walk in the door. Did you ever at any point actually give that list of contacts to that woman who's supposed to take your spot? Never. God, Molly is so smart. All right. So you wait until he's gone. You then set up this game

and you're doing it at this, like, unbelievable place. I assume the players that came were blown away given the fact before they're sitting in like the basement of like a grungy area literally underground yeah no that it was it was very well received and then this is a great story that made it into the book but that is it didn't make it into the movie and and i just think it's an awesome story so so i have the game and you know there's people are kind of most people are like love it and they're into it but there's a couple people that were like this feels shady you know what about your boss and and you know I and that's to be expected right I'm going up against the billionaire boys club and asking them to forego one of their own for some you know

young kid from Colorado that doesn't really know what she's doing but most people were just really into it and then the next but you know there are a couple people that got on the phone as soon as they got home and called my boss and we're like this this is what went down and he calls me at five in the morning and the game had just ended you know maybe an hour or two ago and he's like get over here and this guy's scary okay like this is a scary human being like everyone's afraid of him and I go over to his house and he makes me go out and wait in the guest room in the guest house and I'm like he's going to kill me like I can't believe you went if he said come out I'm not going I don't know why I went either

but I was just like maybe there's a way to sort of like make peace but He's also, I mean, also I went because I was terrified. I'm scared of them. Yeah. And so I went and he made me way out there for a long time, long enough that my, my, I start to get in my head and I'm like, I'm freaking scared, you know? And he comes into the, into the room and he looks at me with like this scary look and he's like, I'm proud of you, player.

It was like, I had graduated because when I was working for him, when I started working for him, I was, and I still, I'm glad that I am this person. person, but I was bleeding heart, you know, I was just so concerned about being kind and people pleasing and, and, you know, like, I would never imagine standing up for myself, you know, and he was like, he was like, the world's going to eat you up. And so he would constantly try to pound this lesson into my head. And, and so in his mind, what I had done showed him that I had kind of like graduated, you know, that I had, that I had arrived. And I think there's a version. I think I kept a lot of myself, but it, you know, I learned how to stand up for myself. And I learned

how to, to kind of, you know, be assertive and, and not be so concerned about, does everyone like me? Oh, I love that. And so once he said, once you felt like you graduated that, I mean, you just showing up you got you got more jobs than I do but you show up and he says that does he try and like cut a deal like I want 10% we're going to work this together he's literally like congratulations take the game like I'll come play the next week wow all right friends ever since so unbelievable that's amazing okay so then you get the game going you get rolling how many people from the original game did you retain did you retain pretty much everyone and grow it or was it pretty consistent with what was before you know i lost a couple of people just because of the stakes i mean

you know you're considerably bigger yeah 50k yeah wild okay so you get most of the people coming back how many tables are you operating in the new yeah sorry the the smaller game was 2550 did i say yeah you said 2550 the new game was 50 100 right yeah yeah yeah and how many tables do you have in the setup just one just one how so how 10 players can play that's it? Yeah, except for people, 10 players is kind of packed, packs the table. So I think nine, nine was the, was the ideal number. Okay. And when you have a penthouse at four season, all of a sudden, Ben Affleck had, you know, anyway, Matt, Dan, any of these guys come in, people got to start being like, what the hell's going on up there, right? Like, well, did anybody,

like, try and crash these games or get suspicious of what was going on? Well, that's why I always loved doing them at the hotels because you sort of absorb their whole infrastructure. You have people that are bringing food, you know, can run errands. You have security. I mean, it would be really, it would be hard to hold up a game in one of those hotels and get away without, you know, you got to kind of, you got to walk through the door. Like, there's cameras everywhere. So that's what I liked about. It was kind of like so, it was out in the open, but also helmed by housekeepers and

people that are bringing you know can go run errands for you and get anything you want and and as a built in security so I and it was fun you could you could kind of hotel hop

so one week it could be at the four seasons one week it could be at the Beverly Hills Hotel wherever you know and you get you change up the environment and then also people don't always know

where it's going to be the element of surprise and change I think is always really valuable when you're talking about the customer experience. Yeah, that's a good takeaway too. When you're texting this, when these group of these high profile people, are they on like a group text or are you calling them individual? What is the communication look like with these people that are untouchable and like no one can get a hold of them to tell them like where the next place will be?

Certainly not a group text. Yeah, I was going to say, right? You don't have all these stars on a group text. Is it like individual calls? Is it like Snapchat's where the messages go away? How does that work? Yeah, this was before Snapchat or signal, which, you know, would have been a lot better for me, particularly in the end. Individual, individual communication.

You know, there's one thing I learned from running a business, from being in the world, it's like, try to make people feel special. Don't make you feel like, you know, you're trying to like be efficient with your time or your money at their expense. And so, like, I think, you know, the name of the game is make people feel seeing heard, remember, make them feel special, learn how to become an excellent listener, an excellent observer of every detail. I love that. And did you ever have with that type of money, obviously you're doing all the things to have every detail to continue to retain and excite people. But you're talking big, big dollars. Are people playing on credit at this rate? Or do people actually bring the stacks in to the game? So the regular players started to play on credit. Okay. And who was the bank? In the early days, the bank was essentially the game. Okay, so it was just like a no, like a promissary note, like a note, like I owe you this. Yeah.

Just a handshake agreement. I mean, at the, you know, at the end of the night, you'd have winners and losers. And ideally, you collect the money the next day and pay the winners the next day. Now, when you're playing every week for large amounts, that doesn't always work so well. Did you ever have positions where people were getting stiff or you weren't getting paid? The L.A. game got stiffed. I think one or two times in like six years. In New York City, when I became the bank, I was running multiple games and I got, you know, I got stiffed a couple times pretty big. And like at that rate,

are you, what do you do? You just have to write it. You just have to write it off. You got to write the check, yeah. Wow. And so when you had your first year, eight months, you're making money off tips. How are you making money when it became Molly's game? So for seven and a half years of running these games, I made money on tips. But let me elaborate on that a little bit. So everyone wanted to play in these games. There were nine seats available. I was in charge of who got to play.

And I was also in charge of how much credit I was extending. So winners tipped. And they tipped well because, you know, I'm sort of the gatekeeper. I'm also the bank. And, you know, like I said, I've said this before. I mean, I was making $4 million a year. Wow. And that was off all the tips.

Yeah. So on an average night of nine players with the 50K buy-in, you're making, what, $10,000-ish? Oh, at least. 10,000 and tips, at least? At least, yeah. Wow. Unbelievable.

And at what point, because I had seen one of your interviews, and when you had an actual buy-in of $250,000. So at what rate did you end up moving the buy-in stakes higher? So when I moved the game to New York City, there was this very famous game that everyone always talked about. And it was these Wall Street billionaires and like foreign billionaires that would play together, and the buy-in was $250,000, And they would play not only no limit hold them, they would play PLO, five-card stud, no limit, which if you know anything about that is just an insane game. And so I kind of tracked those people down and took over and created a game around those economics, which grew bigger and bigger. And then we talk about, you know, we can talk about the $100 million loss. And that's where that game went, essentially, is to become a billionaire's.

game and people winning and losing, you know, sometimes $100 million, the guy that lost $100 million went down over a billion. So is a, oh my God. So $100 million is that the largest loss you've ever seen at one table one time? Yes. And how much did he lose in total? $100 million. And then you said he went down to a billion?

So then I heard, because unfortunately, or fortunately, soon after that, I got taken out. of running these games, they kept playing. And about a year after that, I heard that that guy had lost a billion dollars total in the games. But then more recently, I heard that he was up. Wow, the roller coaster up and down. Was there ever a concern of cheating? I mean, you're talking massive, massive dollars.

And sleight of hand in cheating and collusion is a big thing in these games. Did you guys ever catch anyone cheating? Yeah, absolutely. And how does that work? You kicked out? Yeah. And try to get them to pay the money back, try to come up with a dollar value.

How is the safety and security of these situations? Is it almost policed by the fact that it's not Molly running it? It's the fact you're sitting across from the table of some of the most powerful humans in the world? Yeah, absolutely. So stiffing this game would be both, social and career suicide. And that was what kept me safe.

Also, another thing that kept me safe, safe-ish, in terms of not getting stiffed or having recourse to collect, was that, especially by the time I got to New York and I was, I had become the bank and I was guaranteeing these games. And my, like an MDB ink check was as good as cash in the poker world in New York City. There weren't any other games like the one that I was, that I was. throwing. There weren't any games where you could sit next to somebody and walk out having started a hedge fund together or done a movie together where there were no pros and all action and you could walk in with nothing and leave with a $5 million check. It didn't exist. And so people wanted to play

and they wanted to come back and they knew even if they had lost a lot of money that there wasn't really any other games around town in which they would be able to to win that money back in such a setting. They'd have to play with pros or they'd have to deal with rakes or they'd have to deal with the game runner also playing with them at the table and being shady. And, you know, like it was just a totally different environment. It was like, it was like a Vegas. It was like a win casino in the middle of New York City. Unbelievable. At the highest rate of this game, do you have any recollection of like the largest tip you ever received where you're just like no way this just happened you know the money all became like so i went from making nothing to a lot

and and it kept escalating going up and up and so i mean i you know there there were many nights where it was like 150 000 now in this lifestyle this is more of like theory but and motivational help or just like how you stay grounded when you're seeing all this and you're making all this money and you're working these late hours, how are you like not starting to get enticed with the lifestyle you've seen from them? How are you staying grounded and still sticking to the business and the economics and not getting caught up in all this wild freaking world that you're getting exposure to? That's an excellent question. And so for my time in L.A., I stayed very grounded, very disciplined. And for the first

half a year in New York City but then something changed something flipped and I you know it's not an overnight thing it never is you start to drink a little bit more here take some pills or do some drugs

to stay up so that you can stay up for the games maybe start betting on some football games you know lack of sleep a little more drugs a couple more games you know, and it gets, it gets, and then you find yourself, or I found myself waking up and just

kind of not knowing who I am anymore and making some really bad, reckless decisions. Wow. And so in that, like, what are things that you did? Because I know you've opened up about prior drug addiction when you were at those points. What are some things you did to like get yourself back to the Molly you knew? Well, it really took my whole. entire world falling apart. That was this sort of slow catastrophic burn of getting assaulted by someone from the mob because I didn't want to go into business with them and having a gun in my mouth and getting beaten up and having that person tell me, like, we know where your family lives.

And then the feds raiding one of my game and the government seizing all of my assets, like logging into my account and seeing that my account balance was negative $9,99,99. And then two years later, getting arrested in the middle of the night by 17 FBI agents with machine guns and thrown into a really serious indictment. And then finding myself a couple years later, 35 years old, millions of dollars in debt, using drugs and alcohol again, a social pariah, convicted felon. And it was like, in that moment, it was so dire and so dark and so scary that I had to get really damn serious about this putting my life back together and really looking at myself and my choices and my, you know, where I was and doing some real work first on the inside and then, you know, having to make some moves to put myself in a position. where I wasn't going to be broke living with my mom for the rest of my life.

When you look back at that, do you think that there's anything that realistically you would have adjusted, or do you think it would have taken all that happening to break up this unbelievable thing that you've started? It would have taken all of that. And, you know, it's interesting because I've had a lot of time to think about it and talk about it. It wasn't necessarily the money or the power or the adrenaline. And it was growing up in this very high achieving family, my brother, my youngest brother was number one in the world of 18 in mobile skiing, three-time world champ, two-time Olympian, and then went on to play in the NFL and then start and sell a software company.

My middle brother, Harvard educated cardiothoracic surgeon at Massachusetts General, growing up with these two brothers whose skill set were just so defined early on at a young. age and really wanting a seat at that table and wanting to feel like someone and wanting to have this big life like I felt that they had and finding it through this very bizarre set of circumstances but that's what I was holding on to because that game and that position that I was in and what I had built made me feel like somebody. Did they have any idea or inclination? Did your family know at the level of what was going on? You know, I gave them the PG-13 version, and I could be pretty damn convincing,

but they started to see, you know, and I come from really reasonable people, you know, so, and people that it's not just about, can you go out and make, like, millions of dollars? It's like, what are you doing of substance in the world, you know? And what are you doing that creates impact, you know? or that's sustainable or that's reasonable. And so, you know, they certainly weren't, my dad used to write me

handwritten letters every year telling me this, this cannot end well. I think what you had dealt with, especially when you correlate it back to like a competition thing amongst siblings or family members or trying to belong at the table is something that so many people can relate to, knowing what you know now about. your career and everything you did to kind of earn that seat at the table, what advice would you give to someone that also is feeling that rat race and whatever capacity it is that they're feeling it? You know, I was surrounded by some of the most intimately surrounded,

good friends with, some of the most famous, some of the richest, some of the most powerful people in the world. And they didn't have the thing that you think that they would have. they were not content, they were not at peace. Most of them were not happy. I don't know, have you ever read that book? It's the Psychology of Money. I actually haven't, but I can put it on my list.

Is it so good? Okay, Psychology of Money. It's going next on my list. Yeah, and there's this story in it, and I'm going to mess every detail up because I haven't slept for two months because I have an infant, but I'm going to give it your best swing, though. You're going to get the gist of it, okay? I love it.

He tells a story in the book about Joseph Heller, who is the author of catch 22 he's a he's a very prolifer of course yeah and he's at some party with somebody in finance and one of the guy who's hosting the party's friends comes up and says Joseph how do you how does it make you feel that so-and-so just made in one day in the market what you've made your whole life from selling these books and joseph holler said well i have one thing that he'll never have and the guy said what and he said enough I gave me goosebumps. Right?

And so what I found is that success and peace and happiness and fulfillment is first and foremost an inside job. In my experience, it's never obtained by what you accomplish, how many zeros are in your bank account. Most of the time, that creates this need for more. And I'll never stop being ambitious or wanting to make enough money to have a good life or to go for wins or go for big dreams. I think all those things are very important. But I think there's a fundamental work that human beings need to do on themselves before they can even start to enjoy that.

And the people that I've known in my life that I've seen in my life that enjoy their life the most aren't the richest or the most. famous or the most powerful. There are people that know this, that know that, you know that there's a path to happiness and it's, and it's not by like the rat race. It's being good to people. It's starting to like, you know, sort of like, it's making sure that you have integrity or if you're, if you're if you fall from integrity that you try to get it back, you know. And And it's starting to appreciate and live in gratitude for the things you have and not always thinking you need more and more and more. And I don't know if at 25 someone told me what I'm saying right now, if it would have resonated, I probably wouldn't have believed it was the truth. I believed that those people that lived in those mansions and had all that were living the best lives of people on earth.

And now I know it's not true. I know without a doubt it's not true. And in a way, that totally liberates you, you know? Yeah, I mean, that is liberating because you've seen and heard conversations and had really good relationships with people that have achieved what some people couldn't technically on paper achieve over like 20 lifetimes, no matter how fast they were running the rat race, to only know that for most of them got there and it was not nearly as fulfilling and was as very empty as you had just made it out to say it's like that's such a good lesson.

and for all of us to listen to. We are wrapping up here, but one thing I want to make sure I circle back to and we talked through is that you talked about that rock bottom. What was it inevitably that got the FBI storming your apartment? Like what is it that broke the game up? Was it the multiple of some of those small things happening? Or was there one big event that demolished the game?

So the games got really big. and I was running these games obviously without a gambling license and everybody kind of knew about them and the reason that I felt confident running these games and like it wasn't going to end the way it ended is because there's a federal statute

called running an illegal gambling business which is ultimately what I got indicted on and the language in that statute is you aren't allowed to run games for profit and these are games of chance. So blackjack you know, roll the dice, right? Poker is a game of skill,

and that had always been the argument that had kept poker out of this charge and kept poker at worst as a misdemeanor charge. So that changed in New York City, a new precedent was set. Then I let, unbeknownst to me, some guys start playing that had alleged ties to the Russian mob.

At first, when you look at them, would have thought that, I mean, these were like Ivy League educated people. Wow, that's wild. And then the last thing that happened was where it was my fault, I started taking a rake in the last eight months of running these games. I'm very forthcoming about the fact that I was getting sloppy and not doing this as well as I should have. And my debt sheet was getting bigger. And I started taking a rake at games where I was more exposed. And they had thrown a confidential. informant into the game who tracked that and that was that oh and so I don't know if this is public or not and if you can't share it's fine but what did was that end up like what was the price that

you had to pay for this like how much money did they seize and how much money did they find me and stuff yeah like what was the total repercussions like was there jail time was it big fees was it yeah well the the feds kept all my money that they seized wow that's a forfeiture I was find a couple hundred grand restitution. I couldn't collect the $2.5 million that was owed to me on the street. I did not have to go to jail, but everyone thought I was going to. And, you know, I was given an opportunity by the prosecutors. If I was willing to wear a wire and try to get information for the prosecutors about, namely the politicians and the people from Wall Street and the celebrities, they would have given all my money back and they would have given me a

deferred prosecution. I ultimately ended up not taking that deal because it didn't feel right. I had to really look. When I got honest, you know, that moment I told you about that reckoning moment where I looked at my life and I was as rock bottom as rock bottom gets, I knew in that moment that the way back had to be a return to these sort of core values that I was raised with and a real honest look at who I was in the world. And what I had to digest was the position I was in was 100% my fault. And taking that responsibility was like the first step to moving forward. And so when the prosecutors came to me and they're like, if you try to, you know, if you get us info on these people, you can you can be let off the hook. That wasn't aligned with that sort of

reckoning moment I had, you know, because this was my fault. I had, and I had all the opportunities in the world. You know, I grew up privileged and, and with, with parents who would support my dreams and, you know, this is what I chose to do for better or worse. And I think it's really important to accept that responsibility to take to, and to stand up for your consequences, but to find a way to forgive yourself as well. And so, you know, I didn't have to go to prison, but I'm a convicted felon for life, you know, unless one of these presidents wants to pardon me. Maybe one day.

All right, but we got to end with a trading secret, Molly, one that someone couldn't learn in a classroom about financial management or career navigation. Before we do, one question just off the cuff. You just said it. And you even said it with a little smile on your face like it is what it is shit, but like convicted felon, dealing with some of the biggest and brightest and most wealthy in the entire planet to having a gun shut down your throat by people in the mafia. At this point, does like anything faze you? Like, are you, do you get rattled? Like, I'm like, this is like the most badass girl

on the planet. Does anything phase you at this point? Or is there like PTSD that you have to deal with? Or are you just like untouchable now? No, I'm never, of course, you're never untouchable, I don't think. It takes a lot to face me, but this little girl, my daughter, who's eight weeks old, does a good job. She does it. I love it. I don't think I'm afraid of anyone, but I'm a little afraid of her. Yeah, well, she's got some big shoes to fill. I want to know your trading secret before I do. I do also want to give you the opportunity to just tell us a little bit about like what's next for you. So have you done so much.

You've written an unbelievable book. You have a movie about yourself. It sounds like, in telling me financially, it sounds like you kind of had to reset at zero. But what's next? Oh, just I was millions of dollars in debt. So not even at zero you had to actually pay back money to the government, I assume? Legal fees. And legal fees.

Yeah. Have you gotten out of that debt yet? I'm very close. Let's go. We love that. We love that. Yeah. Wow.

What a journey. And what is next for you? Then tell me what is on your radar. Yeah. So I'm doing a couple things. I'm writing my second book. And the second book is really about this cultivation of inner power that I think allows us to stand up and succeed no matter what life throws at us. And I don't think anyone escapes life throwing some more.

some hard stuff at us. So I think being able to cultivate this power and exerted in the world is super important and it's everything I learned about that. I am doing a docu-series with VICE kind of on the story behind Molly's game and also this redemption story of how you pick up from rock bottom and and you know, build, build back. And then I'm doing a really fun podcast and I'm having a great time with right now. It's called Torched. I'm doing it with Stitcher and Sirius XM and Film Nation. And we're telling stories of Olympic scandals and controversies. And, you know, it's just endlessly fascinating to talk to people who have been on those extreme world stages with the stakes so high and find out why they made choices that they did and find out the

backstory and the causes and conditions, you know. And so that is, that's out now. And that's really fun and we're just telling great stories and in a really fascinating world. Amazing. I love it. Well, it's so cool to see where you've gone, where you've been, and where you're going. Really amazing. Mali, if you could leave our listeners with one trading secret, one they can't find a textbook or learn in a classroom about financial management, career navigation that can only come from you. What would your trading secret be? You know, I'm going to have to throw it back to something that I, you know, keep coming back to. And that is the importance of disciplining your own mind. And I don't think that that is a natural state for human beings. I think we are

naturally fear prone, ego prone, very susceptible to greed. And those are the conditions that I've seen results in financial destruction or prevent people from where they want to be with their finances and a great, incredible tool for starting to discipline your mind and find that, you know, that calm place in the chaos is meditation. And there's real science to back it up. There's real psychology to back it up. And it's, it's my secret, you know, because if you can teach yourself to be the, you know, the most rational and fearless person in the room who's not being, whose mind is not being polluted by fear or even. ego or greed or what is everyone else thinking of me, I think you're downright dangerous in business

and finance and in life. So that's what I would have to say. I love it. Mental discipline and meditation. Molly, I can literally talk to you for four days straight, but I got to cut it off because I know you have a daughter and other big things to achieve. But thank you so much for your time. If you guys check out Molly's podcast, check out, when will the book be out? Do you know yet? I would say probably 12 months, probably here. So keep an eye on that, 2023. And then, if people want to come follow you on social media and stuff, what's your handle? It's I'm Molly Bloom.

I am Molly Blune. Awesome. Well, Molly, thank you so much for your time, telling us sides of your story. We haven't heard and trading all the secrets from a world full of secrets. We appreciate you coming on today. Ding, ding, ding, ding. We are closing in the bell to the Molly Bloom episode, one of my favorite episodes that I've ever had the opportunity to interview. I mean, that was just unbelievable. I was so intrigued. Could have talked to her for three hours. Here's something I got

for you guys. I'm curious. Do you have any interest in me either doing a tutorial with video or over the podcast of stuff on gambling? And so my question is like learning how to play poker, learning how to play blackjack, learning how to make sports bets. It's very relevant today with it being legalized in many states. My question for you is, do you have any interest in that? If you do, please go give us five stars and just let us know in the comments that you have interest. I saw Jacqueline Snow. She just gave us a great review. Oh, La La Lane gave us a great review. 19 Annie has given us some really good feedback too. So if you have feedback, give it to us. Let us know if you want a gambling tutorial, but remember to give us five stars. That being said, I got

the Curious Canadian with me and David, as you know, I was in Tulum that I just landed in New York City for this ranch water event. And as I'm walking to the ranch water event, which by the way, Ryan Bingham from Yellowstone was playing, what a legend. We're going to get him on the podcast. I come across this booth, David. And I don't know if you remember, but it was almost four years ago to the day. I stopped. I stared at the booth. I took a video at the booth. And this was a booth you and I were in. Right after I got off the Bachelorette, we're in this booth with Colton, with, who else, Dean, yourself, some of my other buddies. Actually, a girl was there that later met one of my buddies at the next bar we went to and they're now engaged. I was just having the

ultimate throwback session walking by this. Do you remember that, David? How could I not? It's the standard bingo at the standard hotel in New York City in the meatpacking area. area. And my God was that a time. Probably one of, to be honest, the most unforgettable days that I think we'll ever have together because it was action-packed. And if you haven't been to standard bingo, go and get the big long straws and drink out of the fish bowl drink and you won't regret it. Do they still do that? I think so, right? It's like a thing on Sundays. I think it's like a Sunday thing. Okay, Evan is with me right now. Our big producer and Talent Booker, and he just gave me the thumbs up that they'd do it.

We need to roll it back. I'm going to play you a clip, David. This was from the night four years ago of us. You might have to play the booth dancing. We were booth dancing. Everyone who's listening has booth dancing. before. We were at like a bar or restaurant and you're in the booth and a song comes on. You're just like booth dancing. We were booth dancing hard that night.

By the way, this is summer of 2018 and we're saying Christmas songs just absolutely blitz. All right. Enough of that. I just had that memory. I had to get it out. That's the beauty of these recaps. Sometimes we get off course. But David, kick it to me. You listen to the episode. I'm curious, where you was blown away as I was? What's your takeaway? Where do you want to start the recap? Yeah. I got to say it was probably the first part. podcast that we've done that about the 20 to 45 minute mark, it felt as if I was like listening to a movie. It was like an edge of your seat thriller. It was absolutely incredible. Can't imagine some of the life experiences that she had and obviously that she touched on. I thought it was an action

thriller-esque podcast with some really important takeaways from entrepreneurship and do's and some industries. Yeah, when I think about, when people ask me about the podcast, like suppose a happy hour or something, I'll always tell them what we do, and then I'll list off a bunch of episodes. I'll think like girl no job, Arod, Kevin O'Leary, Gary Vaynerchuk, I think Lindsay Arnold from Dancing with the Stars. I think of like some of these people that we've had on that like really stick with me, I might start leading off with this one. That's how impressionable Molly, her story, and everything she brought to the table was to me. Like this was unbelievable. in my opinion. I couldn't agree more. It definitely is one to remember as her Netflix movie is

Molly's game. But speaking of Molly's game, it's a poker game. You said every time you mentioned in episodes that we'll touch it on the recap, it's my duty to make sure that we do touch it on the recap. So we know you're a big poker player. I've played some poker myself. So we're going to touch on some 101 poker things, just like we would investing or anything else that comes in an episode. So I want you to tell the people, we're going to go four items here. The first item is a buy-in. You talked about a 10-K buying in the first games that she was a bartender at. And then when she started her own games, it went up to a 50K buy-in.

Tell the people what a buy-in means. Okay, so the buy-in is how much cash you are giving the either casino or host, which was Molly. And that is what you are putting on your table and in return getting in chips. And so there's two ways of buy-ins. there's a cash buy-in or a tournament buy-in. If it's a tournament buy-in, and let's say it's 50K, you spend 50K, you get chips, and every single person buys in 50K, and the winnings are given to, like, the top places based on how much money's in the pot.

Now, what she was playing was cash games. So you start at the table with 50K, and throughout the night, you can continue to reload. Reload means buy back in. So I could buy in to sit at the table, 50K in cash, I could lose it in the first 10 minutes, re-buy another 50K, re-buy another 100K. Now, what they'll do with these games too is when there's more money on the table. Suppose there's a million dollars on the poker table and it's two hours into the night and I lose my 50K. I'm not going to buy in 50K anymore because everyone has me outstacked, right? So that means each player has much more than 50K, so therefore they have

a big advantage. So therefore, usually they'll make rules at the house. You can re-buy in for even more. And so that's how if you have a 50K buy-in with eight seats, that's $400,000, you know that after like three hours, there's going to be well over a million dollars on that table with rebis. That's how shit gets out of hand quick. Quick poker unwritten rule. If I buy in for 50K and let's say I win a 250K hand in the first hand, can I just get up and leave? Or is there like, no, you've got to sit there for 45? Or like, is it bad poker etiquette to get up and leave after winning a monster hand? A hit and run is terrible poker etiquette. If someone chooses to do it, I'm sure she would never invite them back. And what they usually do is I'm sure she has this, is there's some type of rule that you have to put in place with a time limit of how long you'll stay.

I would assume at this dollar amount, you would have to call one hour. So one hour would mean, I win a big pot. Molly one hour. And in one hour from what I call it, I can then leave and no one at the table can say no. but it's very, very bad etiquette to hit and run. Okay, moving on to the blinds. She said her first game was 2550. She moved up to 50, 100.

What does a blind mean? I think this is probably the most confusing part for people to understand when they first start playing poker. Yeah, so the biggest breakdown with blind is it is kind of what it says. So blind, you can't see. So you're putting in money before the hand without seeing what your cards are. So if you have eight people at a table in Texas, hold them, two people, only two of the eight,

have to actually put money in before they get their cards. There's a small blind and a big blind. Small blind, it looked like she would toss at 2550 or 50, 100. So that means before player one sees his cards, he's got to put in $50. The guy to the right, or girl to the right, has to put in $100.

So that's the big blind, small blind, big blind. Cards are dealt. It will then go to the next player. So the person sitting next to the big blind, So the $100 is in, the person sitting next to that person has put no money in, they have their cards, they now have the option to match the $100 to stay in, fold, or go above the $100. So you know before cards are even dealt, there's 150. Every single person folds on the table. And no one wants to play. There's still $150 at the table. So it sets the minimum for what will be in the pot. The pot is the total money that's being played for that hand. And $150 as a starting point, it's very, very high. Like these, I want you to say 2550 stakes are stakes you likely can rarely find

at a casino anywhere. And if you can find it, you know, they'll have one table. $5,100 stakes are almost impossible. So when she says these games are unheard of, it's almost impossible, even if you're a pro to find limits like this. And I think if you, not to get into it too much, but blind position. and seats and position strategy is probably one of the most important things

in terms of being a successful poker player in knowing how to navigate those positions. Yes. Two quick things, because I want to get to more of the episode, No Limit and Rake. I think No Limit is fairly self-explanatory, so hit that. And then she made a comment that you said

she didn't take a rake, which is rare because that's usually how people make money off their poker games, like an establishment. So touch on No Limit and Rake really quick. Okay, so there's games that are limit games and no limit games. A limit games means you can only bet up to how much is in that pot for that hand. So if there's $150 in that pot, my bet can only be

$150. A no limit game means that my bet can be any amount up to how much I have in front of me. So it would be pretty stupid to do it. But if there's $200 in the pot and I have $200,000 in chips in front of me, I could say all in. So you can bet any amount up to the amount that you have in front of you. That's no limit. The rake. We've already we talked about the pot is. So the rake is where the dealer, or the house, will take a small percentage of what the total pot is for every hand played. So if there's, the pot is $15,000, people are betting, right? This is one hand. At the end of the rake, based on what the rake is, Molly would take, I'm making this up, because I don't know the exact number, but Molly would

take $500 of that, and it would go in her little kitty, and then whoever won that hand gets the $14,000,000. And she's doing that every single hand. So she's now making money on every single pot. She's taking a small percentage, putting in her kitty, and she's getting tipped out. And she was making money as a banker. So once she had her own game, she was bringing in tons of sources of revenue. And the fact, like, she is the most badass chick ever. When she said that she kind of like used her leverage to force people to tip her, like, you want to get invited back, you're going to tip me.

So on top of it, she's making monster tips because people know they want to come back, probably just to sit next. to freaking Ben Affleck. You know, it's just, I mean, genius. I love her attitude, man. She is amazing. Well, to hear that, you say that, and then flashback to the start of the episode when she said she was Googling poker songs

to put on a playlist and trying to like find an edge and then here she is a couple years later running her own massive games in New York City changing the game and using her leverage to get people to tip them. It's just, and you mentioned Ben Affleck's name, I want to put it out there.

I did my own research on some of this. It wasn't just Ben Affleck. Here's some names that were participating in these games. Leo DiCaprio, ever heard of them. McCauley Calkin, Matt Damon, our boy and Trading Secrets guest, Arod, which we knew that. Nelly, Mary Kate and Ashley Olson.

What? Not so innocent anymore. And then pro poker players such as Phil Ivy. I'm surprised they let Phil Ivy play, because for anyone that doesn't know, they call him the Tiger Woods of Poker, because literally him and him and tiger look almost identical it's crazy but i'm surprised they would let the pro play because that's what you was saying the pros couldn't play but i bet you some of those guys

just for ego wanted one night for the pro to play to see if they can beat him just to say they beat one of the best pros yeah it's like if i could golf with tiger woods and bet him money i would just to see how bad i get my ass kick yeah maybe one stroke or one putt you beat him and you can tell everyone for the rest of life you out putted tiger woods at one hole um the one thing i don't want to overlook and I think it's a crazy parallel to draw, but you're right. She just went in blind to this, not knowing shit about it, didn't know anything, was putting crazy game of poker on playlist. And obviously was a sponge, learned it, loved it, implemented herself. And I only takeaway to that to anyone listening is give things a shot. Like literally within two, three years,

she has the most, you know, I'm not saying go do illegal shit, but it's just another example of someone taking a shot at something they don't know anything about in becoming so big with it. They you know, 100 FBI agents taking them down. So, like, you can master anything at any point. I'm saying do it legally, but just another wild takeaway. Well, I think just the beauty of this podcast is anything, any guess we have, there's tangible takeaways. Just her going in and be like, hey, I'm going to research poker things before I bartending

the event. And she said, make people feel special. Don't make your time or money be efficient at their expense. Make them feel seen, heard, and remembered. I thought that was like a huge, huge takeaway. Yeah. I love your attitude. I think super smart. I mean, super, super brilliant thing. The other thing, too, David, I do remember, let's see if you did your research. What is one thing I said I got to talk about in the recap during the show? Probably I'm going to say, well, I mean, you're poker guy and you've played poker games before. So I'm going to take a stab and say a little bit of your poker experiences in the underground CDC and the basement in probably Seattle. So I've played in, the basement all over. I've played in New York. I've played in Rochester. Dude, I've played in Rochester. There's a game in Rochester. There's two, two, three games in Rochester. And it's the

craziest thing because what happens is you first have to be able, like they have to do background checks on you. How they'll do background checks usually is your Facebook or Instagram just to make sure you're like legit. And then you'll, you got to bring cash and you'll knock on one door. Then you, they close that door and you'll go in a little hallway. And there's another lock door. So it's a double locked door to reduce like crime. Then they bring in, there's cameras. never a second door, then they lock that door, then you get in. And once you're in, you're in. And what's interesting is, like I said, at this table, dude, obviously when I was playing, these stakes weren't that. I think we were playing either two, five, or five, ten to give

people an idea. And the thing is, is that at that table, it's the wildest thing. I remember there was partner from law, there's a partner from a couple law firms there, partner from a couple CPA firms there. There were two or three drug dealers there. I was like a banker. It was the most, dude, it was the most wild group of people I've ever sat at one table with in my life. And that's kind of the beauty of poker. And so it was just a wild, wild experience playing in underground games. I loved it. I love, dude, I would sit there. This is when I was getting my MBA. So I'd work all day. Get my MBA. I would go to the game at like 11 p.m. and I would take some of my textbooks because you're supposed to be patient with the game. I would be doing recent.

on like MBA stuff studying while playing the game and just listening to all these conversations. Crazy. That's wild. What so what if I have you over for like a hundred dollars buy in a one two blind poker game is that like what where do we draw the line with like illegal where the feds are going to come after you and illegal like oh I'm just playing poker with my buddies in the basement. Oh dude one to 100 they're not coming after anything. It's kind of like the Doug podcast where Doug was like yeah they don't really want the guy buying the joint. They don't even want the guy selling the joint. They want the guy that's supplying all the big the weed. So I think if you have a consistent game, you're hosting a game, you're hosting a game

three, four days a week, unless you have cops in your back pocket, which a lot of them do. I think the game I played at did, you're not going to, you're not going to get busted, I don't think. But if you're doing, like, think about what she's doing, man. Of course she's going to get busted. It's huge dollars. It's, I don't know, I didn't even ask about the tax situation with the most powerful humans in the world. And didn't you, isn't this interesting? Even when they caught her running the biggest game probably the United States. They still didn't even really care too much about her.

They were more interested in getting her wired so they can get the biggest people in the world that played at the games. I found that fascinating. There's always a bigger fish. And the fact she... What is your take I know we're running lane in this recap? But what is your take on the fact that she didn't get wired? Like, what's your

opinion on that? Because she's still still, still to this day, she's done the book. She's done the Netflix show. She's working. She's sold an unbelievable story. She's everywhere, and she still said she's in debt to the government for what she owes back. What's your take on the fact she could have been wired, got some people in trouble, and therefore been debt-free? I just think she's almost like an OG hustler in that sense. I think that the only reason she got to the place that she did is for that same mindset that she refused to wear a wire.

like I just think she was always about providing the service and she knows that she couldn't have done it without people trusting her and I just think that I don't know maybe at the end of it when it was time to like you know take care of herself and maybe throw some other people into the bus like at the end of the day she knows what she knows what she did and she couldn't have done it without the people and at the end of the day she was providing the service and they were taking advantage of it so there's it's it was her fault for providing the service so why All right. Let me cut you off here. Let me cut you off here. Right here. Yeah. You're in the same situation. Yeah. You're $3 million in debt. Yeah. They tell you you wear a wire, your reduction of sentences lower and you don't have any money owed. Are you doing it? I mean, I'm not going to sound like a snitcher, but yeah, probably. Yeah, I'm doing it too. Yeah. I give it. It's another reason why I give this. Because I also don't owe anything to any of those people. That's what I provided them a service. You're the one who's not getting tapped and getting a gun in your mouth.

And I'm sorry. But like, I'm complied. I've had some pretty, I've had some pretty bad like hangover anxieties in my day. The anxiety that I got when she said she logged on her bank account and she had negative $9,99,999,000. I was like, my hands started sweating. I was thinking about that too, the scariest. Like the smallest things I get the scariest, right? Like, just like, oh, my God, I can't, you know.

How, she, she's just like, not phased by anything. That's why I said to her. I think after the, I don't know if I said this during recording or after. I think it was during. Like, are you phased by anything? Like, does any... You did? Yeah, you said that. Oh, she's like my kid.

I'm like, okay, I think the answer. Okay, that's great. Yeah, it really makes me and you really looking forward to being a parent one day. She's a better woman and better person than you and not because we both would have snitched. Oh, well, I just, I, to have like a live stream of her life in between, you know, like she's very open about her drug and alcohol use and getting shaken down by the mob and her family threatened. and, you know, the government sees in control of their assets.

It's just crazy. Dude, there's gun in the mouth? From the mom with no protection? I can't wait. I can't wait for the sizzle clip that we'll put on social of you, your facial reaction, which you just said, I got a gun in my mouth. I thought your jaw actually hit before. I need to have, like, a drink with her and talk to her

because I want to be like, okay, you definitely worked with the mob. Like, you had to have protection. You had to. Okay, David, just like the episode, I could have talked to her for another four hours. Just like the recap, I could talk to you about this for another eight hours, but I know that's not what all of our listeners want. So it's about the listeners. Guys, we appreciate all your feedback. Please, five stars, five stars, five stars. Put your IG handle,

your name. Should we do more of this? Should we not do more of this? Do we need, do you want, interested in actual video footage of doing these tutorials on gambling? Give us feedback. David, before I close out, anything else from your head? No, it was such a good, I haven't even seen Molly's game on Netflix. And so that's what I'm doing tonight. I'm going on. watching Molly's Game on Netflix. If you have not watched Molly's game, I'm telling you, it's an hour and a half well spent, and it's perfect for anyone. Like, it's a great go-couple and grab a popcorn and watch a movie. You'll all enjoy it. David, great recap, great research. Love the breakdown. Thank you for being here with me today. It's good to be back in New York,

New York. I miss those days of Bengal. Bingo, we'll have to roll them back. And, yes, we have some really, really good guests coming. So continue to share the pot. Continue to subscribe. to the pod. Please make sure to give us five stars and thank you for tuning into another episode of Trading Secrets. One, you can't afford to miss. Or at least hopefully you can't afford to miss.

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