Trading Secrets - From Hayley Paige to Cheval. Sued for the rights to your own name? Say Yes to the Dress star shares secrets to navigating the lawsuit that almost erased her identity

Episode Date: June 5, 2023

This week, Jason is joined by entrepreneur, fashion designer, and America’s favorite bridal expert on TLC’s Say Yes to the Dress, Cheval! Cheval’s advanced and diverse experience in the bridal industry made her one of the most sought after luxury bridal designers in the world, earning her opportunities to dress female icons such as Carrie Underwood, Chrissy Teagan, and Dove Cameron. After a decade of working her way up in the industry, Cheval found herself in the legal hot seat after being sued by her employer to gain control of what she believed was her own brand and social media accounts, forcing her to give up much of her hard work she had put in throughout her career. She made the ultimate boss pivot and decided to utilize her entrepreneurial skills to create her own brand under the name Cheval, a powerhouse advocate for artists and creatives.  Cheval gives insight to how much she identified as a wedding dress designer and looking at “former” wedding dress designer as a new chapter, how having your name with the signature line behind a design in bridal makes it a lot more special, why reputation is important, and why the secret sauce is the human connection. Cheval also reveals that Say Yes to the Dress and her former employer are separate from each other, the behind the scenes of her lawsuit, how she is able to utilize her talents in the shoe industry, and the non-profit organization she started, A Girl You Might Know Foundation, that supports young females & creatives during the formative times in their careers. Which element was the hardest to overcome? What does being head of design entail? Which shoes are the most successful? How much has gone into her legal battle?  Cheval reveals all that and so much more in another episode you can’t afford to miss!  Be sure to follow the Trading Secrets Podcast on Instagram & join the Facebook Host: Jason Tartick Co-Host: David Arduin Audio: Declan O’Connell Trading Secrets Steals and Deal Whoop: To make it easier than ever to start, Trading Secrets has partnered with WHOOP to announced a new 30-day FREE trial. Go to join.whoop.com/tartick today to take advantage. Athletic Greens: Get a FREE 1-year supply of Vitamin D AND 5 Free Athletic Green Travel Packs with your first purchase at  drinkAG1.com/TRADINGSECRETS Better Help: Start today and get 10% off your first month https://betterhelp.com/tradingsecrets

Welcome back to another episode of Trading Secrets. I am your host, Jason Tartick, and I am trying a new segment out here, guys. We're going to call it the pre-market trading segment, right? We ring in the bell. That is the market session. That's Trading Secrets Trading Time, where we have our main guest. and then, of course, we do the recap with the Curious Canadian. But here's what I'm thinking for the pre-market trading segment.

I'm thinking I'll give you a quick synopsis of what you can expect from our guest in this episode. I'm thinking I'll give you maybe one or two things that you need to know about what's happening in the investing world or the economy. And then if you want, I mean, I ask for numbers from, I guess, why don't I come on and every week give you some numbers? Maybe the best deal I did. Maybe some money I lost in the market. maybe a trade that went really well. I don't know. Maybe something I'm working on. I'm thinking about

doing that. What I need from you guys is to go into Apple, give me five stars, and let me know if you want me to, A, keep the pre-market trading segment around, and B, specific numbers I can give you from the week prior you might want to hear about my business life. But for starters, let's talk about what you can expect in the show today. You may have heard of the show say yes to the dress. Yes, We have someone on from the show, and you'll get the information and how they pick people, what they're paid, and some behind-the-scenes stuff. That's coming. But I have an internationally renowned, extremely, extremely successful wedding dress designer, Haley Pageon.

Now, if you know Haley, you might know the story. If you don't, Haley's story is that she became such a massive designer that the brand she created, the wedding, dress, designing brand she created was her name, Haley Page, the same name on her birth certificate. What Haley didn't know is in 2011, when she signed this new big promotion, head of designer with her employer, that she signed the rights to her name and her brand away. Now, what you're going to hear is that Haley could have fought this. She could have negotiated this, but the principle and character of what her employer did to her had her fighting like no other. In this episode, we get into the process, we get into what she missed in the contract,

we get into what she would have done differently, the repercussions of the contract, how much she spent, how much she, this pains me like I want to cry, how much she spent fighting for what she believed in. and where she is today and so many more things. Now, if you have a contract you've ever wanted to have an attorney look over and you didn't because you couldn't afford it or you didn't have access to it, like Haley didn't in 2011. In this episode, you're going to hear how you can get free attorney work for a contract you might be signing.

So in this episode, you are going to love everything Chival has to say. You're probably like, wait, wait, wait a second, who the hell is Chival? Haley still can't use the name on her birth certificate. Fuck, it fires me up. So she has transitioned her brand and her name to Cheval. Legally, she can't even say her own name. All those details are coming soon. It gets me like emotional.

It gets me mad. It gets me sad. All the things. Now let's talk about a few things that I just want you to know going into this week. A recent survey came out that says over 50% of American. say they are financially worse off now. This is the highest point since 2011. Over 50% of Americans feel that they are financially worse off.

We haven't seen 50% or more since 2009. So I'm curious, go in the recap, go in the notes, go in the reviews, give me five stars, and let me know if you feel financially worse off, and specifically where you feel it, and I'll make sure that I talk about it. A couple other things you got to know is that the U.S. debt ceiling was just passed in the Senate to raise it. Here's what you've got to know. We've never defaulted as a country. We've never defaulted. Now, let's go to basic terms. What does that mean? Maybe you have, maybe you haven't missed a payment. Maybe you defaulted on your credit card. Maybe you missed two or three payments

on a personal loan or student loan. That's considerably really that's you're in default, right? that's what you are. And so, but the United States goes in the default, that has some massive repercussions. People that are expecting Social Security checks wouldn't receive them. They wouldn't be able to make their payments. The U.S. economy would turn upside down. We didn't have a choice. This had to get passed. Now, there's some rumblings out there that the Republican Party actually did not want to pass this because imagine the damage it would have done to the leader of the free world, Mr. Joe Biden, if U.S. had their first ever default, it would have absolutely crippled the perception that the world had on the United States and him. And our whole country would

have turned upside down. But even in a battle where politics can really angle, the betterment of the entire country mattered. And that's a beautiful thing that this got passed in the House in the Senate, because left, right, center, wherever you stand, we needed this to be passed. We could not default. It would have been an economic nightmare. The other thing I want you to know is that U.S. mortgage rates have climbed to their highest level since November. The 30-year fixed-rate mortgage averaged 6.79% in the week ending June 1st up from 6.57% the week before. So this is the highest U.S. mortgage rate that we have seen since November. And a couple things in my world, apparently a lot of companies now, they're doing something called UGC. It's called

user generated content. So while influencing companies are still paying individuals directly to actually post on their channels, what they're doing now is they're saying, hey, if these people have a brand in a certain space, let's just have them film content and then we'll pay them to be able to use it, but they don't have to post it on their page, which is someone like me that's like music to my ears. Like, I just go and film something and then I don't have to post it and my followers don't even have to see it. Like, that's awesome. So there was a user generating content deal that came through actually through cameo. Now, usually when I do cameos, I don't know, like a hundred bucks. Camio feels like they take 50% of it. I get 50 bucks. It's whatever, you know. But a came

in and it was five grand to do a 30 second little commercial. And I just had to read it. the script was right there and it was done it took me two minutes i was like that was cool that was awesome so that was a fun deal i got this week and something else i'm working on right now is getting pre-approval like i've learned a little bit about tax strategy and if i am to buy a house that i use for office space or that i use for residential investment there's something called bonus depreciation and other than the land i can't depreciate the land but everything on it i can't depreciate the land but everything on it. I can depreciate up to 80% in one year and reduce that amount from my taxes. So right now I'm just going through the pre-approval process. So that means all my tax returns,

credit score, all that stuff. And I just pulled my credit score. I think it was 796. So I was happy with that. It's not in the eights, probably because I don't have a mortgage. I don't have a good mix of debt. But yeah, that's a little bit about me. So that's my week. That's what to expect this episode. There are some things you should know about what's happening in the economy in the investing world. And that's a few numbers from my end. Enough of the pre-market trading segment. You guys let me know if you want to keep this around. Let's ring in the opening bell with the one and only Haley Page, aka Cheval. Welcome back to another episode of Trading Secrets. Today I am joined by entrepreneur, fashion designer, and America's favorite bridal expert on TLCs, say yes to the

dress Chival. Chival's advanced and diverse experience in the bridal industry made her one of the most sought-afted luxury bridal designers in the world, earning her opportunities to dress female icons such as Carrie Underword, Chrissy Teigen, and Dove Cameron. After a decade of working her way up in the industry, Chival found herself in the legal hot seat after being sued by her employee to gain control of what she believed was her own brand and social media accounts, forcing her to give up much of the hard work she had put in throughout her career. She made the ultimate boss pivot and decided to utilize her entrepreneurial skills to create her own brand under the name Cheval, a powerhouse advocate for artists and creatives.

Today we are going to learn all about the blessing and the curse of contracts, what it's like to be in a legal battle with your employer and how entrepreneurial spirit helped her rise to the top once again in the fashion industry. Chival, thank you so much for being here today. Oh, pleasure to be here. Thanks for having me. I got to say, I've always known you as your former name, which I think freedom of speech, I can say it, right? Haley Page, you don't even have to acknowledge it. So even saying Chival, it's like foreign to me, but let me ask you this. Professionally, personally, is it Chival across the board now? I'm pretty committed to it.

And of course, my closest friends and family have a really hard time with it, even though they like the name. You know, it's just by habit. And people tie you to your name. You know, it's not something you really think about. Of course, when I run into people sometimes at, like, the airport, it's so funny because they're, they mouth it. They're like, are you? And then they say it, you know, because they're like almost afraid. I can say it.

Haley page. So naughty. Yeah, but I can't give permission for people to use it, obviously. and I cannot use it in any business or commerce or even to publicly identify because there is this new, you know, overview of social media and how most of social media is in promotion of something. So it's like a taboo area. It's the ultimate predicament. It's one of the reasons I had when I created trading secrets, I always had you on my radar

because I'm like there's so much from your story entrepreneurial-wise and learning lessons of what you're going through that anyone can learn from today that could help them tomorrow. So your birth certificate. Yes. I know you can't say certain things, but I can say whatever the hell I want. You're not, you told me not to. So I'm breaking your rules. Is Haley Page?

What name is on your birth certificate? Oh, that's the first one. The OG. That one I just said. Is there ever a potential of changing the birth certificate? You know, I'm open to anything. I feel like this whole process has really made me focus on putting one step in front of the other, fun intended.

But, you know, I just want to move. forward with my life. And however, I can do that while still creating and utilizing some of the skill set that I've dedicated my life to, you know, I think that's where the focus goes for me and all my energy. Well, you have moved forward. We're going to talk about all how you have moved forward and how you guys can help support Chival. Before we do that, I'm doing all this research on you, Chival. It's going to take me so much, so much work, though. I just, I'm going to keep saying Chaval, Chival, Chival, Chival, Chival, because I look at you and I just want to say it the other name, but Shabal, Shabal, Shabal. The first thing I see is a former bridal dress designer.

And even as a friend of yours, like that, it hurts me to read that. Former bridal dress designer, it doesn't click. When you hear those words, what are you thinking? I kind of go to a place of, oh, it's a new chapter. But I will say in everything that I've gone through from the name usage to losing what I always thought were my personal social media accounts, which involved relationships, to basically being withheld from practicing my trade set. You know, and this is something I spent my whole life dedicated to and my industry experience and my education. That was where my sense of self struggled the most because I didn't realize how much I

identified as a wedding dress designer. Like, it was so much of my purpose. And I felt like it was my gift. And for how self-conscious you can be in life, that was one thing I felt pretty good about. and that like, I'm really good at this. And that's hard to admit to yourself, especially if you're, you know, you're an artist because, or you're a creator. You need the validation. You need other people to tell you that you're good at it a lot.

But I felt it internally. So that was the hardest of the three to overcome. And that's where I actually experienced the most grief because it was sad, you know. What actually put you in this contractual predicament was when you were offer the job as a major head of design, right? So before we get into the contract, being offered head of design, like, what does that mean in this industry? And how big of a job is that? It's a big job. And it's, I would say if you want to be a designer, you know, getting to be the head of a collection and harness everything with a creative vision, it's the big dream.

You know, so when I was offered that, I just felt like I've got to grab this opportunity, you know. And it was something I'd want my whole life. So I didn't want to compromise anything. I just, and I wanted to get started so fast, you know. So it's interesting when you look at all these different industries and like what's the top, you know. Yeah, the pinnacle. A head designer for me is that maybe creative director could also be, but I was offered a head designer position and it was an employment contract. It was not, you know, right on the.

contract, it's employment. So it's not like it was a partnership or there was any kind of, you know, anything beyond that. But how many people that are ahead of design also have the signature line under their name? Is that pretty normal or is that an outlier? No, I think it's it's definitely a goal for all designers. And in this, not all designers, I shouldn't say that, but it's for a lot of people, the idea that you, it's your name and it's your vision. especially I think in the bridal industry because it's not like you get these big heritage brands typically in bridle. It's not like Chanel or Bahman, like all these brands where, you know, they bring in new designers and freshen up with creative directors and all that stuff because

it's been around and, you know, the original designer is no longer there, you know, for other reasons than why I'm not there. But, you know, it's just a different animal. And I think with With bridle, there's such an emotional attachment and it's a different purchasing process. So I think when the name is behind it, it makes it a lot more special. It makes it more from a place of just like love and sentiment. Okay. Yeah, so it depends. But I would say actually coming from Priscilla Boston, I mean, I knew some of the salaries

went up to, you know, almost seven figures. Okay. You know, so that can happen. Because that's what I'm trying to back into, right? So if you're 150 to 250 at Head of Design. But then they're using potentially your name to create a signature line. Is it possibly comparable to, let's say, I'm going to say Michael Jordan. Michael Jordan works for Chicago Bulls.

Chicago Bulls pay him a really good salary. But every day Michael Jordan was playing, he was building that personal brand. And that personal brand became much, much, much, much more valuable than the contract that he had as an employee for the Chicago Bulls. Right. Is that similar that when you're building equity within this line in your name, The value of that individual in the industry becomes much greater than the potential 150 to 250k salary of the job. I think that is an amazing paradox to look at because when you think about, like, you know, Michael Jordan, what I think is interesting is that he is such an outlier because he spoke to a generation outside of basketball.

I mean, obviously basketball really helped with it. But he really did command himself as like a champion outside of the court. And so that allowed for this goodwill and these relationships and these other opportunities. And that's where I feel like the benefit is. So while I felt very restricted once this lawsuit hit and I realized I can't literally do anything outside of, you know, with my name and all this stuff, I was like, well, bare bones, I still have a sense of goodwill with the people that I've met along the way, the real interactions in person. even the stuff on social media that, you know, those people that used to follow me can now follow me somewhere else. So the reputation was so important. Interesting. And I'm grateful for that because ultimately, bare bones, that's what I have. I have my reputation still. I have these good

relationships with people. And that's something no one is entitled to. What was the year that you signed that contract? 2011. 2011. Okay. And then when did you, what was the, because most people know you from say yes to the dress. A lot of people do at least. What was the year you started with say yes to the dress? I try to remember this exact date. I would say it was like early 2014, potentially, and then I was married once before, dress rehearsal in 2015. And that wedding is, yeah, it's still, you know, rerun on say yes, beautiful wedding. But, you know, didn't work out. Sure. It all happens. But yeah, say yes was totally separate, actually, from my former employer. So I love making that distinction because, you know, for me, that experience was so wonderful and is not tarnished for me, you know.

And I try to make sure people know that because it was tied to Kleinfeld as well. And I just, I love, I always love Kleinfeld. Today, could you still do say yes to the dress? You know, I don't know that question or the answer to that question. I don't. I don't know. Interesting. Okay.

Probably not. Probably not. I mean, maybe if it was, I was not using my name, but then it would be really weird. And then it wasn't anything to do with, you know, wedding dresses. So you couldn't use your name and you couldn't deal with the dresses. I don't think so. And you couldn't design it. Yeah.

Oh, definitely not. And you still can't design. Yeah, no, I'm under a five-year provision in which I can't identify to the trade as a designer in the categories that my former employer manufactures and sells. Okay. That's the provision. 2011, you signed the contract. You don't really totally understand what you're entering into. 2014, you're on Say Yes, the dress. What was the year this all came to ahead when you learned the reality of what you executed on? So in 2019, the contract was actually coming to an end. And then I actually went into a very large period of negotiating on the contract. So there was a big period of time in which, you know, I really felt like there were things, circumstances that did.

not exist at the time of signing the contract that needed to be properly, you know, clarified and written in and all this stuff. I mean, there's no mention of social media in my contract, not one mention of it. And at the time, Instagram was a photo editing app, you know, Valencia, borders, all this stuff. You know, I'm, and I was single in the city. So I was like late night, fun cocktails. I mean, there's so much content. I took off of Instagram that I now wish I would have kept up. But, you know, it was just interesting. And I remember feeling very frightened. And, you know, obviously that's a very uncomfortable thing in a work environment.

But I did not have a lot of negotiating skills. You know, I went to a great school. I always felt like I had a good skill set, good educational brain. But I'm a people pleaser. And, you know, it's really tough for me to ask for what I want. I have the same issues. You do? I learn that in therapy.

I need to go more. I remember we were doing this, not to get too off on a tangent, but storyboarding. You're supposed to put like a square of a memory you had as a child. And you do 20 boxes. You fill it out throughout a month. Then you bring it to therapists and you go through what these messages mean and they derive like what you've took from it and how it derives to where you are today. Yeah. And so a lot of people come in with like a board this big. They come up with like a big wall. I came in a little piece of paper. Here's a post-it note. And my boxes were this big. And she starts laughing before I even go. She's like, I mean, I already knew that taking up space was an issue years and asking

for help and asking for things. This defines it. Like not taking up space. So we share that together. Yeah, it can be really tough. And then so we started this negotiation process. I finally, you know, kind of brought in a legal team. And it felt very contentious and very, very like the Delta was so enormous, which I really had a hard time understanding because, you know, I felt like this was a long time coming. And I felt like I was working up to this moment to be kind of seen and respected as a businesswoman. And I don't feel like I was seen that way. Quick question there. So 2011, you get the head of design. You're now renegotiating in 2019. It was a long-term contract. But are you renegotiating because you just find that it's not with the times? Or was it only an eight-year

contract. No, so it was, yeah. It was a, I think it was either a seven or an eight year contract, and then there was a three-year option, an extension. Okay. So we were negotiating within that window, the extension period. And obviously, I can't speak too much on the actual negotiation side of things during that time, but I was obviously still working at the company.

And then COVID hit. And I felt like the goalpost kind of kept moving. So it was like, it was terrifying, to be honest. For me, the experience was not good. And then I kind of came to a head when I served a lawsuit while I was still working at the company. And it was in a federal court, which meant this had been planned for a long period of time. Because you can't just be like, okay, I'm going to sue someone. And the next day you have a lawsuit.

Like, it was built up. What did the lawsuit read? Well, it was like 100 pages. The synopsis of it was. Yeah, it was basically, they sued me for the rights to my name, among other things. My social media was included. There was infringement. It was really comprehensive.

And you had no idea this is coming. Not really. No indication like, hey, this just so you know, we could do this. This could happen. If I'm being as, I don't want to be disingenuous. I will say that, like, I was having moments of physical manifestation. Like, I was shaking on the daily. Like, I felt very unsafe in my.

Interesting. Very unsettled. You felt a comic. And I kind of felt like, oh my gosh, like, is this going to happen? Like, could this happen? You know, and so when it did, it still felt like a, you know, a punch to the gut in the sense of I was like, are you kidding me? Yeah. You know, so like it felt very much like a tactic, like a strategy of some sort.

A scare move. Yeah, something like that. And, you know, I can't speak for them. But when that happened, it was actually kind of freeing. because in that moment and then in the days that followed, because we got granted like an emergency TRO hearing. And this wasn't COVID. I'm like, of all cases,

my case is getting granted like this emergency status. And like we had really no time to prepare for it. And like, so it was kind of like, oh my gosh, like what is going on? And then in the TRO hearing, literally everything was kind of just granted to my former employer. And in that 24 hour period, I had to turn over my passwords. I couldn't use my name. Like, all these things happened right away. And I was in Tahoe with my, with Conrad.

And I, as crazy as it was, I felt free because I knew in that moment that for me, morally, I would never be able to do business like that. I would never be able to operate that way. And so I knew that the only decision I could make was resigning. Like, I physically knew I could not work this. So I resigned like two days later. So they take your name, they take your social media, they take pretty much your life's work right from your hands. And there's still no part of you that's thinking maybe I should find a happy medium or negotiate with them.

Right. So you like this is a very common sense approach, right? And because there was this lengthy period of negotiating before that and it felt increasingly uncomfortable. and contentious, this, it almost felt like, okay, this is a long time coming. And that had already been tried, in my opinion. You know, like, there had been attempts. So, um, I think for me, my constitution, like, I do consider myself a very moral, honest person to a fault sometimes, because I think in a lawsuit, there is a strategy, there is arguments. There are things that are interpreted way beyond what you can possibly imagine. And when, there are arguments made that do not reflect my actual experience, I have a very hard time with that. And so for me, it was like, I felt like it was dead to me. You know, so like, there's no coming back from this. And like, I've been through a divorce, you know, like, I know how to cut, cut, you know, in my life. I can cut it and run. So I, so I knew that.

I was like, okay, I'm, you know, this is it. This is the decision I'm making and I had conviction with it. So do you sign it in 2011? 2019 are when all these negotiations go through. You serve the papers in 2020. 2020, yes. Looking back on it, if you had not negotiated, the contract renews and you get, I don't know, your basic bumps in salary and all the things that you'd imagine, do you think they would have pursued this or do you think this would have come to fruition? Do you think you would have recognized what you had signed off on or would you still be working there? I don't know. Um, because it, in my experience, it got so bad so quickly that it made me feel like the actual tenure there was extremely delicate. it. And I didn't really feel that way for a lot of my time. But when this happened, I was like,

whoa, that unraveled like a bad sweater. You know, so it must have been a bad sweater. That's kind of how I think of it. That's a good point. But I also feel like, you know, when a brand starts to grow and you go back to the Michael Jordan reference, you know, when it feels like somebody is trying to exert a level of control and entitlement over that, I think as a human being, we all take a beat in a moment to just say, like, you know, are these the partnerships I want? Or is this the kind of business that I want to conduct? You know, and so you get time to think about that. And I think regardless, there would have been some other opportunities that were coming that were outside of what I considered, you know, a head designer position outside of my contract. So it would have had to be

discussed at some point, I think. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. Everything I hear about this makes me want to like point the finger and scream and yell at this company and be like, what the fuck's wrong with you guys? So I try to like explore curiosities of like where their head could be and what it was. And there's nothing I can justify. I'm curious though like, was the renegotiation just so astronomical that it was like hard to comprehend? Like I'm trying to understand why they would strip someone's name. Why they would strip your identity? Why they'd pursue it so hard. And then I go back to again, another sports reference. You hear some of these quarterbacks like they hold out because they want a billion-dollar contract.

And you're like, what do you do it? Come on, be realistic. Not my protection. I don't know if you could speak to this or not, but were you holding out for like requests that were just completely arbitrary or were they like standard renewal requests that you wanted? I think because there was a contract

that clearly felt one-sided, everything kind of comes back to that. And when people talk about it, they're like, the name, how can, you know, all this stuff. And it's like, well, the way that the contract is written and how it can be argued, how it can be interpreted, you know, it's not within the four quarters. It should be, but it's really not. And so there is a legal right there. I think where the real discussion is, is it, does that make it right though? You know, and like in terms of like

the ethics of it and all that stuff, that's where the conversation is. But unfortunately, in a court of law, a lot of what is happening, you know, they're in the legal right to do that. And I'll never understand the human motivation behind it. I will not. And I've stopped, you know, dwelling on that because I tried to understand it. But I, you know, I'm not a very religious person, but I do have faith. And I just was like, this is God at work for me. And there's a reason for this that's happening. And it is my duty to step forward and take accountability at this point because I don't want to become a professional victim. And I also don't want this to feel like the adversity Olympics. Because when you go through something like

this, it's like you really like have to go through these exercises and explain it to yourself at least. But then when you're having, you know, interviews and all that stuff and people are like, how does this happen. And I don't know if you've seen the meme with the cow and it says, I am cringe, but I am free. Yeah, yeah. That's my life. Literally, that defines your entire life. All right. And that's a good segue too. We also will talk about it, but you create a non-for-profit to help people going through similar battles. Let's just talk a little bit about the battle more. If you had to just guess, you had to put a dollar amount of the value of what your brand was with your name, which I can say was Haley Page. I know you can't. But if you took the Instagram and just the value of the

and everything. What would you value that at before? Like if a professional company came inside, I think the name, image likeness of this is around X amount of dollars. What do you think it was? I don't know if I can legally answer this question, but I'm going to just because it's so exciting to me. What I will say is I actually think the value is $0 if I am not the person behind it. That's my opinion. You took my next question. You just stripped my next question. I think it is $0.00. I was curious. I was think here's where I was going with the question. You just read my book before I even could write it. My question was going to be like, what do you think it was before the contract? What do you think it is today? And then I'm

just trying to justify like, why would they do it? So if you valued it at, let's say it was like valued around $3 million. And then today, you can't even associate your name. It has to decrease, especially the way you've gotten your message out there in some capacity. I'm like, why would they spend the money on the attorneys, the effort, all that if the value of the brand is decreasing by the second without you attached to it? Maybe. Maybe. there is a different perspective, you know, that they're coming from. And obviously, like, when you run a company, and now that I do run a company, you know, run a company, you think about things probably a little more sales oriented, like, well, we can still sell this product or whatever.

Sure. And then there's value in that without potentially the person behind it or whatever. I mean, this is just me totally from my opinion and thinking about it. But I honestly kick myself because while I was there, I felt like I was never really privy to financial details of that nature. And now I am like such a numbers person. And I'm grateful because I before was just like, oh, money. You know, like, oh, that's so stupid. But like now I'm like, oh, my gosh, money.

You know, like, how do I survive? And so now I look at it from a different perspective. but I still think with branding and valuations and all that kind of stuff, because there's dilution in every single industry and market now, the secret sauce is the human. It's the human connection. It's the human behind the brand. And it's becoming more of that every single day. And I think the valuation is only as good as the energy and authenticity and effort of that human.

That's so true. Like I believe that hardcore. And I believe it for like influencing. I believe it for, you know, of course. athletes, you know, their heart and soul is in the game. Of course. And I love that because it becomes this synonymous, synonymous energy in which no one else is entitled to your labor, your work, your creativity. And I think that's wonderful for everyone to have their own accountability and ownership

of self. Yeah. Well, it's so true because even if you look at some of the biggest companies in the world that operate just automatically based on products that don't align with their leaders. You look at Amazon. You look at Tesla. You look at Apple, Elon Musk, Steve Jobs, all these big leaders. They have to have massive key man insurance policies. We'll explain that in the recap. But essentially, if they were to pass or something was to happen to them, the value the company would get would be exorbitant because that one person, even though it's not their brand, even though it's not,

you know, tens of thousands of people working for them, they have that much influence. And it goes back to like exactly what you said about your energy. A question I have for you is in most lawsuits, well, especially like personal injury firms and stuff like this, we'll talk more about this in the recap. They never go to court. They never go to court because they have to be settled. They have to be settled because the cost of going to court is way too exorbitant. You decided to fight this. That had to be pretty expensive. Did you have to hire your own attorneys? Did the company pay for your attorney? What did you? What was your legal bill? Yeah, I don't even know where to begin with this, but I love,

I was just like an instant sign of defeat. I know, I'm like, my name and my energy, you know, completely devoid. I literally love my legal team. I was very lucky to get them when I did. And I did not feel like I had a choice, but to defend myself, again, because the experience and the arguments and the things were just not alighting for me. So when you feel misrepresented, especially in a federal court, there is a certain level of, like, swallowing that, like, you just, it's so hard to be the person I am and to be, like, portrayed this way. It's so hard to deal with that.

Financially, it's devastating. It is absolutely devastating. I've spent all the money I ever made in my life, you know, to define. offend myself, but I am up against a corporation. You know, it's an individual against a corporation. And it feels like so much effort and money has gone into basically controlling me, kind of. You know, that's how I feel. And like, and suppressing talent, too, because, and again, this is my opinion, but it's,

it's like when you have an industry where there really isn't trade secrets, I mean, in my opinion, it's, it's, it's designed. That's your brain. It's your brain, like, there isn't like this thing that really feels like it needs to be protected. Instead, I think it needs to be set free, you know, because every industry needs the best players on the field. And, you know, not to say I'm the best wedding dresses I was or anything like that, but I feel like it was my gift and I could do a pretty good job at it. And the fact that I'm not allowed to do it, I feel like it is the casualty is the industry and the women that wanted an authentic dress, you know? The tens of thousands of people plus that you've helped and maybe the tens of thousands that

would have been helped by you. Yeah. And it's confusing financially. I mean, as a financial person that you are, I mean, you look at it and it's like, why is all this money being spent to do this? But then there's a contract, you know, that is set up to protect. But it feels like it's now being weaponized, you know, in a way. And so, again, it comes back to like, I just have a really hard time understanding it.

Yeah. But I'm still in it. I am very much unable to afford my life right now in any way, shape, or form and think the lucky stars for Conrad, because I wouldn't be where I am without him. And he just, like, has been my North Star. He's been the one thing that's constant in my life, but he has been financially stable. And so for me to have the ability to move forward because of him, you know, it does make it extra special.

I'm so, like, I'm so grateful for that. And a lot of people don't have that, you know, I don't know. I don't know what you would do. You just go bankrupt, you know? And then I don't know what happens in a legal case. All these things, you know. Is that something you, first of all, Conrad. Shout out to you, Conrad.

He is the man. Such a good guy. You're in his presence. Your energy is lifted. Just electric guy, electric. So shout out to Conrad. But did you ever think of it? Like, is that something across your mind?

Do you just bankrupt your former name and just refresh everything? Well, in a way, the moving forward. and changing my name felt like I am opening the page of a new book you know and totally um but you know for me bankruptcy if that is something

it's out of necessity like I don't have a choice and I don't really fully know what that looks like but I am just hoping that I can defend myself as long as I can because I think it's the right thing to do and while I'm definitely climbing an uphill battle and in the

legal world, like, you know, I'm appealing the non-compete and all, like, all this stuff, you're only in it as long as your resources last, you know, that's the truth. So it's, it's a... Can you give me a true or false? I'm project. I'm going to guess. True or false, this has cost you over 150 grand. Oh my gosh, yes.

Significantly more. I don't know if I can even say it. I'm going to say it for now. We can edit it later. But like 10x that. 10x that. I feel like I'm one at paltrow or like I'm like I feel like I'm like in a Johnny Depp. I'm in a trial or like we're not even in trial yet but I feel like publicity on trial.

This is insane. Yeah, it's insane. If in case we have done it. True or false, I'm going to take a shot. You've spent over seven figures. Yes. Or close to on that. True.

I have no words. That's just. I mean, that's. Am I wrong to say this is wiping out majority of your wealth? Yes. True. I mean, I've had to make major decisions in life, you know, in terms of like selling things off. And, you know, I mean, it is bare bones here. And it's been extremely hard to not be able to work in where I know my talent and skill is. And so having to start a new brand, you know, I've had to invest in educating myself on shoemaking, you know. And so. even with that, it's been really tricky. And it's also been really hard because when I'm in this situation where it's like, wow, I can't even use my name.

Like, what kind of contracts can I even sign with my name? Right? So, like, even influencing and doing all this other stuff. Can you even put your name? Do you have to have an agent put the name on it? Like all the details you have to think about. And then the legal bills it takes to say, can you read this? Can I sign this?

Can I, let me see if this is approved. Let me, let me, you know, it's like you're spending all this extra money to, to try to find a way forward, you know, and I've lost. out on television hosting gigs. I've lost out on other like illustration and design offers. I mean, I have lost so many opportunities because of my situation. And I think a lot of people, too, you know, when you talk about a lawsuit, it's very, it seems very negative, you know? And like, do people want to invite that energy in? Of course. You know, so everyone's so PR conscious these days. It's like, do they want their host to then have, they don't know the predictability of what's

next? It becomes stuff. It makes me disgusting. It makes me want to just like a throw. grow up, it's grotesque, it's just, the whole thing is disguised. Like, it's wiped your wealth. Like you said, it's taken you away from what you know. So even if your wealth is wiped, then how do you go earn what you know? But you have pivoted, which is amazing. We're going to talk about the pivot and how you guys can support Chival, but I want to get to quick learning lessons people could take away. Did you have an attorney look over the first contract? And knowing what you know now, what would you have done different before you signed the first contract that got you stuck here? I did not have counsel or a lawyer.

Hindsight. So 2020. Definitely would have. But I also have to say this. Given the experience and the trauma, I really don't know if it would have mattered in the sense of the only thing that would have probably changed is if I just didn't sign it. Like I don't feel like I would have had negotiating power even back then, you know, when I really think about it. It's a really good point.

It's kind of like I don't want to compare it like in the situation of The Bachelor, but it's the same thing. Like, I remember when I gave my attorney the bachelor contract, he just, like, laughed at me. He's like, anything in my life I've been taught to negotiate, take the opposite of it, that's the entire contract. What I said to him is like, well, if I don't sign it, I'm one of a million. Like, I'm not going to go. So I would have had to say, no matter what, you had to send. And that's how you felt.

That's devastating. And that's the truth is it's, if I don't, somebody else will and I'll lose my opportunity. And so for me, the real solution would have been to, go with someone else, a different company. That would have been what I would have done. There wouldn't have been like, oh, I would have brought in a big old team and got in there. And I think that, too, goes back to our nonprofit. And what we do want to do is when you are young and you're hungry for those opportunities.

And there is a chance that you might be vulnerable. And it's not just ignorance. It is vulnerability. And it's being in a room potentially with somebody that assures you of something, you know, or like whatever it may be to kind of get. you to sign it or say it's a boilerplate everyone signs it there's all these red flags now but i think to have advocacy and to have a place to go to say like you know what is what are my chances here like you're really not just signing contract you're also investing in a relationship and a business relationship

and that's something you have to kind of think about is like do you have you done your due diligence on the company you know like i know you want the job but let's make sure it's that's right for you yeah you know and there are other there are so many companies out there and while you you might think like, oh, this is it, you know, it could maybe not be. So that's what we want to do with a Girl You Might Know Foundation is, you know, help young artists and creators and people that are people, pleasers that don't want to, you know, be combative and want to be a team player, but it can end up, you know, I'm so authority driven, like I really respect authority. And that can sometimes hurt me if I don't have an opinion, you know, or stand up for myself. So.

I want to try and take this situation and give the listeners that we call them the Money Mafia back at home one piece of advice because they might not be having a head of design contract, but they might have a contract with a friend to buy into a company. They might have a pre-num. They might have an employment contract that's different than yours. What is like one overall piece of advice you'd give someone, whether it's a personal or professional contract knowing what you know now? I feel like a lawyer. You know, like you've got to go with a lawyer. That's the that would be the one piece of advice if it's just narrowed down to one not be quick to compromise too much of yourself in a contract and I think too if somebody is pressuring you with time

because that can always be a weapon in that we ought to get this done because of X, Y, Z or whatever and we don't have time for lawyers you know and we'll figure it out all that kind of stuff is for me now

like that's a big red flag and if anyone whenever says, like, you know, you don't need a lawyer or whatever. It's like that you've got to get a lawyer. You've got to take a minute to protect yourself. It's worth the investment. And for those that don't have the money, you know, hopefully a girl you might know foundation can come in and help provide pro bono, you know, resources or legal counsel that, you know, is more affordable. So people that have a contract, they can't afford an attorney. They want to connect with a girl you might know a foundation, which you started. Where do they go? Yeah. So they just go to a girl you might know foundation.org. And they can just email out. and we will get the conversation moving. And it's all pro bono on our end as well. It's a not-for-profit. So, yeah, we just launched on International Women's Day. And, you know, we really want to have a foundation set up so that it's resources,

it's connecting people to these pro bono or affordable services because so many law firms actually have to do a certain number of pro bono work every year. Did not know. That's a trading secret right there. It is. It's amazing. And then you have all of these lawyers and attorneys that literally, have been following the case, you know, and that are like, I want to help. Like, because I've seen

this happen or this happen or whatever. Yeah. And so we've had, we've had an amazing rolodex of people already willing to help that are nuanced, too, because it's IP, it's, you know, trade secrets, it's contract law, it's employment laws. There's so many things. Um, and yeah, I think that is, unfortunately, it's an unsexy answer, but. Yeah. It's the reality of the situation. It's the reality. Lawyer up and also identify the red flags. And then I'll tell you is go talk to Chival. Go look at a girl you might know foundation because that is huge. These attorneys can cost up to 350 to $1,000. I've seen it. Some attorneys have an hourly rate of $2,000. An hour, an hour. Yeah. I see that look. It's like I feel it. I know it. But your non-for-profit is going to

help people that can't afford that. Let's talk about your brand. So you pivot your brand into designing shoes in the midst of all this. First, tell us a little bit about the the brand. The brand was really inspired by resilience and running against the wind and just not letting circumstances define you. And while, you know, it can feel very limiting to be in my situation, it allowed me to kind of look over here now and say, okay, actually I can reach more women with shoes. I can still be creative. I'm obviously injuring an industry that is so competitive and so diluted. And there are so many experts already there. And so the TURRENT was really me overcoming my own sense of insecurity and, like, starting something new.

So I did take some time to really educate myself. You know, I tried to reach out to as many people that already were in that industry, like, give me your fast facts of, like, where I should start, what I should do. I had so many people saying, do not go into shoes if you want to make money. And I'm like, I'm doing it anyway. You know, like, so it's been an exciting journey, but most of all, it has allowed me to tap into a skill set that I've, dedicated my life to, you know, in some kind of way. But it is so different than dress design. I am sure it's night and day. But here's the one piece of inspiration I think that is a blanket piece of inspiration. So many people have the idea. They don't start it. They have millions of

excuses why they don't start the business. Capital, timing, industry expertise, all the things. You wipe out your wealth. You're spending seven figures on freaking attorneys. You can't be in the industry. You know best, but you still do it. What's your piece of a device for someone? that doesn't have the capital, that doesn't have the expertise, what do you do? How do you start it? What do you do? What do you do? What's the biggest piece of advice you can give? Invest in self. When you don't have resources, you just have to be resourceful, right? And it seems easier to say, obviously it's easier to say than it is to do. But take a minute to really look at your contributions and like, where's your skill? Where are your fine-tuned talents, you know? And how can they transfer? How can they be applied? How much time do you have in the day to? spend on it, you know, and really thoughtfully think about time management, because there is a lot of time wasted these days. I mean, if you really think about, like, how long you scroll, you know, or like, late nights watching TV, like, you could be doing something else during that time, you know, and not to say you have to, like, be working 24-7, but I think

when you do have, um, a goal, you've got to put the effort and you owe it to yourself to do it. Um, and I would say the one common denominator in every entrepreneur, every small business starter I know is that they're just not lazy. You know, I mean, that, that, If you are just not lazy and you work at it every single day, I do think it's the baby steps are not for babies and you'll find you're making the progress, you know, long term. Chaval's just dropping truth bombs out here. One big takeaway I just had to was companies spend billions of dollars to distract us. Don't fall for the trap.

Oh, that's so true. If you don't fall for the Netflix trap, if you don't fall for those traps that they are built and designed to trap us, you'll have the time to do this. Let's give a quick pitch, though. Someone right now is listening. They want to support you. they want to buy shoes with with your brand where do they go and then give me like minimum price points and why they should buy the shoe we are available mainly online so she is chival

com and then we have a pop-up shop in new york city at the seaport which is our little jewel box of a shoe parlor um and then we're doing pop-ups kind of around the states now uh which are slow and steady but you know we're trying to find these little nooks that we can uh you can see the shoes and try them on in person. So that's obviously a very important part of the process. Yeah, I mean, I've learned so much about visual imagery and, like, website photography. And, like, because it doesn't always translate with a physical product, especially shoes and sparkle.

But, yeah, so you can, you can shop there and we're specialty. I was not afraid to be really specific. Love that. Because that's always how I've operated as a designer in general. Wait, wait, wait. What is, like, for someone like me who does know, specialty means what? Specialty is just, like, it's novelty? no it's not custom but it's like not your average shoe you know like that's rare i mean there's

like real flowers and one of the heels set in resin you know it's like a preserved heel with floral in it you know there's like draped rhinestone and pearl and like you know it's obviously kind of set up for like big day vibes and things that are make you feel special um event wise like if you're going to a party or something or a taylor swift concert you know all this stuff like we have the shoe for you. I love that. Okay. And then I wanted a really wide assortment because I didn't know what I was doing.

But I was like, you know, let's just put it all out there and see what people gravitate toward and then we'll find our way. So I've got a lot of, I've had a lot of success with the sneakers and the boots as well. So like chunky block heel boots and there's like a cowboy, you know, vinyl boot. So now I'm kind of getting the rhythm of, okay, what's the next collection going to look like? Now that we know a little more about our identity, you know, with. in the shoe space. And I would just say, you know, in terms of shopping for product, a lot of times it just

feels like people are pushing things on you. But for us, like we will believe in carrying out our mission, not just stating it. And I think it comes with a sense of purpose and pride that a lot of women can relate to and want to step into. And that's why it's she is Chival. Like she is fierce. She is ongoing. She is a work in progress.

You know, all these things that kind of help you identify with your own story. Because what I went through obviously is very unique. But I think a lot of people can relate to having a sense of set back, you know, and how do you move forward and take those fresh steps. So, yeah, there's a lot of fun stuff that's, like, hidden throughout the branding. Like our signature print actually tells the journey of my creative story. And there's, like, hidden nostalgic nuances in it. Love Lamp and Pac-Man's ghosts and, like, crazy stuff. But it's like a twill print, so it looks very glamorous.

If you look close, you're like, is that a troll, though? Like, yes, it is. I love that. All right, go follow that Instagram handle. Go check out Cheval, all that glitters on the gram. All right, I have one last subject we got to touch on because the listeners had asked me. Say yes to the dress. We just got some quick rapid fire questions here.

Say yes to the dress. Does the dress that the individuals select, do they have to pay full retail on it? Do they get a discount? You know, I actually was never privy to that, so I don't know. Okay. I would assume they'd have to pay for the dress, but I don't know. Do you have any idea, like, what the casting process was to get the people on the show? I'm almost positive that, like, you can submit just like an application to go on the show and they review it and then they decide.

Gotcha. I'm pretty sure. Gotcha. Were you compensated better as a head of design or better being on say yes, the dress? Oh, I don't know. Oh, no. I think my employment role more than my. Employment paid more than say yes to the dress. Okay. And what is one thing that we don't know about say yes to the dress, watching it on TV that you might know behind the scenes? It could be business. It could be how things are seen, maybe bloopers or mistakes, things that get screwed up. That's what they wanted to know. One thing we wouldn't be able to see through our screen on say yes to the dress. I would say Randy Finoli is as amazing as he seems. Okay, that's a good one. That's like one of the number one questions I get asked.

It's also safe, and I appreciate a safe answer given what you've gone through. You're like, what say yes to the contract that I signed? I know. I've had to look at that too, you know. Oh, my God. Unbelievable. All right, Chival, we've got to end with one trading secret. You've given us a lot, but one trading secret regarding your career path, your journey,

your ups, downs, leaps, and rights. People couldn't Google. They couldn't learn from a professor. They could only learn from you. What could you leave us with? Going after your biggest dream. should not come at the expense of your morals, your ethics, your creativity, or your name. I love that.

So don't do what I did. Yeah. I also, one of my, the big training secrets I take is like, time is finite and you really got to fight for what you believe in. Because if you don't fight, this system is set up to really not allow you to fight. But at the end of the day, we only get so many years. You are only, or you come, we go, there's next generation. and your story will live much longer than your life, right?

And the impact it'll have will live longer. And to me, it's like, it's easy. It's supposed to be easy to just be like, all right, we'll settle. Let's figure it out. But fighting and really like standing for where you believe in is like a life legacy. So I think you should be so proud of it. Oh, that's so sweet. Thank you.

I love it. All right. Well, let's end with this. Where can people find everything? Your Instagram's, your new business. You already mentioned your not-for-profit. I want the full pitch because you deserve the pitch and we need to go foul, Sheval, so give it all to us.

Okay, so she ischival.com, and then that's the Instagram handle for shoes. And then I still run all the glitters on the gram. Ironically, it was started as Conrad at my podcast account. Oh, my God. Oh, that's right. I remember that. I remember that. Which you and Caitlin Ron, I'm going to have to go re-listen to that episode.

Yes, I might have to listen to that. Yeah. And then, yeah, we're on. I had to start a new Pinterest account, so I have that. And I'm trying with TikTok. I'm not great, but I'm trying. yeah, a girl you might know foundation.org, a girl you might know foundation is the handle name. Yeah, I mean, that's pretty much the whole shebang.

That's the whole shebang. Go follow her. Go support her. Thank you so much for being entering secrets. Oh, thanks for having me. Ding, ding, ding. We are closing in the bell with the one and only, the curious Canadian on the Haley page, Haley page, Haley page, Haley page episode. I could finally say it.

Go follow her. Go support her name change. Chival is it. But, David, it was so. heart. All I know her as is Haley. That's how I met her. That's how I've known her. That's how just everything. And the whole time ahead, I'm like, I had to like do meditations to try and not say her name. And now for the recap, I can. She's great. She's amazing. She's an inspiration. Curious Canadian. What do you got? I mean, nuts. That in a lot of ways is one of the most nuts

episodes we've ever had because it seems so preposterous that it's real life. It was almost Jason as if I was watching a true crime documentary. it literally is true crime without being criminal. Imagine today I make you sign an employment contract with trading secrets. I take your name. I take everything. Dude, imagine it's like I even take like your son's name. You just had Carter, right?

And then you have no idea. And then 10 years later, Carter becomes, you know, an NHL prospect. I'm like, sorry, buddy, you signed away. Like, it's how this is legal to me is just banana. It makes no sense. If, like you said, flip the table. if the TV show that you were on took your name and I couldn't call you Jason anymore. It just wouldn't make sense.

It still doesn't even make a lot of sense to me. And to hear, I mean, her resilience is incredible. Her moral high ground is phenomenal, but you can't help but feel she soaked every penny that she's made into fighting this. and it's just so sad. And to see her, you know, pivot and start a new brand, which I think she's going to be super successful because that just seems like what she is, it was just all around nuts, man.

I couldn't, I knew kind of what I was getting myself into to the episode, but Jay, I don't think I could have prepared myself for the, really the details and the severity of it all. The resilience is amazing, but to your point, like your entire life's work gone, gone, your name is gone, your money's gone, you're now in debt, gone. And that's why I wanted to have her on so badly. Because the power, and this was something my grandfather always told me,

said there's nothing in the world more valuable than your signature. And it just reminds me of this episode. He's right. Like if you're not looking at what you're signing and why you're signing it, who knows what's in there. And to think, man, just to think all those years, like seven or eight years, she didn't have ownership to her name, to her life, to her work. And she didn't even know.

It's what's fucking nuts, man. And when you asked her if she soaked seven figures into this, she said yes so fast that you know it's not like 1.1. It's like defaunt. No, it's deep. It's deep. So quick question for you. Monetarily, how much do you think she's like losing from this rebrand?

Let's say what happened. Let's say her, I don't we hate to say net worth on this. podcast because it's never we're never right but what if things if this never happened if she never got served in 2020 this lawsuit and it was 2023 and she's able to grow her let's say your instagram is uh it's haley page is at one point you know X amount followers compared to where she's at now with chavelle and the shoe company and the pivot and the rebrand how much do you think that's costing her on an annual basis let alone take the seven figures out of it i think she's let's just go business a to business b i mean i think this is like kind of the question i was

trying to ask her when I said, what do you think the value of this brand is? She's like zero without me behind it. But I think like before this had all blown up, this is a, man, if you look at like a company trying to buy Haley Page, I'm thinking $5 to $10 million. This is an estimate, but $5 to $10 million at least. And I think without her name on the brand, she's right, zero. And then I think when you look at now where she is versus where she is then, she's still, if I had to like value it, like she's grinding and she's hustling. She'll, get back to where she is, but maybe she's at 10 to 20% of where

she was with Haley Page. That's my estimation based on what I've seen. It's so, I have in caps. I hope I'm wrong. I hope I'm wrong. I have in caps in my notes. I mean, over a million followers, we already know that's going to be at least a million dollars in the influencer space. She isn't just an influencer with no talent.

She has such a talent. She's one of the best wedding dress designers in the industry. The fact she can't even say her name, she can't even use her name. She can't even come on here and say her name. That stuff just absolutely boggles my mind. I hope one day it can turn around. Jay, do you think there's any hope, but one day she can say her name in terms of, you know, anything other than introducing it to a random person on the street? I mean, if her lawyers can

come through, yes. There are expirations to her non-compete from a time period. So that, you know, that within time, she mentioned, will expire. I don't know the ownership structure of this company, but let's suppose it's a single-owned company by one individual. If the company dissolves or the company goes bankrupt or this individual were to pass, I guess the legality behind these contract terms would be gone. So the only thing I think she could hope for is legal success or business failure. Do you think, and I've heard this before, is the United States the only country in the world that's like so pro like suing each other contracts up the wazoo like is it is this something

that is really like better read the fine print get it better get someone to look over every contract better not say this better not do that so you're going to sue sued sued is this is this like a i see it as do you see it as a problem or do you see it as like a united states issue or something that i've just heard that that they were just so trigger happy to sue people or hold these things over their head. I mean, this conversation goes so deep. And I think it goes so deep because we are built on, like the United States is built on capitalism. And with that comes so many discussion points, right? Lawsuits is a discussion point. Work life balance is a discussion point. Monoplies is a discussion point. Different socioeconomic status in which you kind of are set up to not be able to get

out of the socioeconomic status. You are built unless you are, you're built born into unless you're wild outlier. Like this can go so, so, so deep. But, you know, with just the system of economics and capitalism we haven't placed, there's a market behind suing people and therefore it's a big place people live. And this is actually a good transition, David, to the personal injury stuff I was talking about in the show. Like personal injury stuff, it's pretty simple. It's like the basics of it. And of course it gets more in the weeds. But, you know, the basics of it is, how about badly were you hurt, and who was responsible for that that has the biggest pocketbook and the best insurance? And if they don't have big pocketbooks and they don't have insurance

to go after, the attorneys won't waste their time, right? If you got a guy on the side of the road who's worth, I don't know, $30,000 and he has no personal insurance, no car insurance, nothing, and this guy does something to hurt someone, an attorney won't take on the case because there's nowhere for them to make money unless maybe that person is on a big business property in a parking lot that does something so then they can go after the business. And they're not even going to go after the business, David. The first line of defense they're going to go out, they're going to ask the business, who's your personal insurance through, and what is, you know, or any insurance you have,

and what are the type of coverages you have? And that's who they're going to go after. So when the money's there in this country, the behavior follow. And that creates many discussion. Well, I think one of the big, we was talking about trading secrets, one of the best trading secrets I think all of our listeners can take away is, first off, we haven't done a definition in a while pro bono. I think I know what it means, but I don't know if I know what it means.

I definitely don't know how to spell it. To take a pro bono, it's kind of what it sounds like, PRO, space, B, O, I know. I threw a you in there. What do you think it means? I think it means like free trade, like free work, like free legal. advice. Like I am offering pro bono legal advice, which is free legal advice. I'll tell you what, if we go on the recaps in the last like 40 recaps, there's not a definition. You didn't think you knew that you didn't know. David, you know what it is. I might even just said that wrong, but you're

exactly right. It's free work. And where it's derived from is legal, it's like free legal work for low income clients. So they're getting the work without charge. And then it's just a, it's been kind of used in all terms now in all vernaculars. Like someone could joke around. and be like, I'm buying dinner for you two, and be like, all right, it's pro bono. Or we're all going out. Be like, there's no pro bono here, you know, like, let's all, let's all chop this bill up stuff like that. Yeah, stuff you have to deal with the Rochester guys all the time and you come visit.

Well, you, to hear you say that you didn't know that law firms have to do a certain amount of pro bono hours, too, like really, really interesting stuff that I learned from that. One thing you did mention that I want to ask about again is key man insurance. You said some pretty big hitters in there, Steve Jobs, Elon Musk, as it relates to their companies, touch on key men insurance. really quick. Yeah, I think it's so cool, the pro bono thing with the attorneys, too. I just want to touch on that. Like, I had no idea law firms are required to do certain work. So knock on your law

firm's doors. Go look at Chevelle's non-for-profit. It's incredible. Keyman insurance, it's a, we already talked about insurance policies, but it's a business life insurance policy. It's taken out by the company to protect against financial loss for like one individual, a top owner, a top partner, a top executive. It is saying that this business is, so dependent on this one person that this business has to take out a big life insurance policy for this one person because God forbid this one person dies, the company could be in shambles. So companies will take out like a million, two million dollars, three million, ten million dollar policy on this one executive. If that executive dies, the insurance policy then has

to pay the company $10 million, right? And the reason is, is because the value of that person is so significant to the company, the company will need that money to continue to survive. It's kind of a wild policy. And like she's the definition of a key man policy. If Haley Page is not there, the company does not operate without her. And like she said,

the value goes to zero. So that's a person who would need key man policy. And that exactly her value would go to zero. So that makes perfect sense. I just got to say from where she's coming from, for where she's been. It just makes it sad when she said that the original contract that she signed was,

feel like it was weaponized instead of protecting her. You know, the fact that she says no one looked over the contract, but she doesn't think at the end of the day it would have mattered. And the last thing that I'll say a quote from her, I didn't want to become a professional victim that's, you know, helped her moved on.

And she didn't want to be involved in the adversity Olympics. So I got all, I got all the respect in the world for her. I just can't believe what I listen to. is factually, like, able to happen in our country, in our society with someone as successful as her. So everybody, if you're listening, go support. Go support Chival. Go support her. And all that she's been through. So like I said, at the start, man, an absolutely nuts episode. Absolutely nuts. This is what it is all about. So make sure that, you know,

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It was so bad I could not take it, at least 214. She still gave us five stars, though. Please do more educational podcasts. It was very interesting. We are going to add a Thursday second episode, probably in July, all on education-based podcasts, and then we're going to have actually Money Mafia. You guys come on and tell us your money stories.

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