Trading Secrets - Macklemore shares his secrets about the music industry, keys to his success, and the $$$ behind it! From making $2 racks a month to investing $2M+ into new album “Ben”

Episode Date: July 3, 2023

This week, Jason is joined by multi-platinum and Grammy Award winning rapper, songwriter, and entrepreneur Ben Haggerty, known to the world as Macklemore! In March of 2023, he released his first new album in over five years titled Ben, which covers a portrayal of his life including topics such as his struggles with mental health. On top of his tour and new album, he is launching a collaboration with Adidas on his vintage inspired golf clothing brand called Bogey Boys which he started back in 2021. Entrepreneur, music, fashion icon, touring Europe, the United Stated and on top of it all, he is taking stakes in Seattle’s MLS and NHL teams, the Sounders and the Kraken.  Macklemore gives insight to his philosophy that has gotten him to where he is at, how priorities have shifted, his love of  the puzzle that comes along with being an artist and creative, where he finds meaning, how getting sober and his parents helped him get out of his own way, and how divine timing and an underground strategy resulted in the success of “The Heist.” Macklemore also reveals what his original goal was at the start of his music career, how some of his diamond records were written in his parents basement, how he has never signed with a record label, the drastic difference between an independent contract versus signing with a label, how the numbers and money are just a small portion of the pie, and the importance of being rooted in the present.  How much did he think “The Heist” was going to do the first week? What is a 360 deal? How does he measure success? Macklemore reveals all that and so much more in another episode you can’t afford to miss!  Be sure to follow the Trading Secrets Podcast on Instagram & join the Facebook Trading Secrets Steals and Deal Whoop:  To make it easier than ever to start, Trading Secrets has partnered with WHOOP to announced a new 30-day FREE trial. Go to join.whoop.com/tartick today to take advantage.

Welcome back to another episode of Trading Secrets. I'm your host, Jason Tartick, and welcome to the free market trading segment, where we talk a little bit about what you can expect on this episode and at least one takeaway that you can use going into your week. So this week, we have the internationally known the Grammy Award-winning multi-billion streaming artist Ben Haggerty on. Now, if you might say to yourself, wait, who's Ben Haggerty? You might know him as MacLamore. And for some reason, if you don't know, MacLamore, you've been living under a rock the last 20 years, maybe you will be one of the two billion humans that streamed this song, Can't Hold Us.

Hey, let's go! Spreaded across the country. God, I can listen to him all day. Come on now. Like the city can hold us. Like the city can hold us. God, I can listen to him all day. But we get into so much, it gets really deep.

Trust me. We talk numbers, right? He's been working at this craft from 14 to 29 and didn't hit it big until 29. We talk about some of the struggles, the trials, the tribulations in that time period. We talk about how much he was making early on in his career, how much he's making now, what it costs to actually create an album, what it costs to make a music video. And he, unlike almost any big-time artists you know, is independent.

He has a structure that is different than almost every musician that you know and you get to learn what that means for his bottom line. With that comes some risk, so you learn the dollar amount he spent on one music video that they didn't even release. But more than the money, more than the career talk, more than the trials and tribulations, there are some really powerful messages that come in hot from Ben.

The things that he talks about are so meaningful and so much bigger than dollars, sense, billboard charts, etc. Now, I want to give you a little background here, right? So we go to LA and we're there for a bogey boys event. Now bogey boys is his apparel company. Ben is a big golfer. I actually got to golf with him. You'll hear some stories. I got to golf with him and Sergio Garcia at the BMW and a pro app. Now, I always like to share some of my business stuff behind the scenes because I asked for numbers for my guests. I had a sponsorship from a car company and what I had to do was do some posting, but I got to play at the Rider Cup the day after, and I got to play in this group with

McLemore and Sergio. And then I do some social media stuff, and I got paid for it. I got paid. It was the coolest deal I've ever done. And I think the payment total was like 10K. But it was the coolest thing I'd ever done to get paid for that was a dream. And that's some of the stuff that you'll hear Ben talk about. Now, Bogie Boys is an apparel company that has a very vintage style feel to it. We talk more about it in the recap. but he just did a massive collection with Adidas, so that's why he's in L.A. Also, I want to tell you this. We bought an exclusive Bogey Boys hat.

We actually bought four of them, but one's for me, one's for Evan, one's for David, and we're giving one to the Money Mafia. All you got to do is give us five stars and let us know what your biggest takeaway is from all of McLemore's words this episode. And what we do is we take all the names that write a review. We put it in this online wheel that we hit spin. It picks the winner, and that's how we announce our winner. So give us five stars. Let us know your biggest takeaway from this episode. And you can win that one

bogey boy hat we have to give away. But I want to give you a little background. Now, we had him scheduled in the morning. Okay. And then what we ended up finding out is that, oh man, there is some, there is some confusion and communication. Let's just leave it at that. But we were at the wrong hotel. So Ben was still so kind enough to let us come to the new hotel hours later. And we were able to get this interview in and we were only supposed to have like 15, 20 minutes before his event, but the conversation got so good. We got about 35, 40 minutes. So that's just a little insider trading secret on how this episode went. But as you listen to it, you'll recognize there is no fluff, there is no small talk. I only had so much time with Mack Lamar. So I went in. Now, for the giveaway, week's winner, I will go to that

influencer closet. It could be a value of $500. It could be a value of $5.00. It just depends. what's in there. But we are giving it away to at random Megan Braz. You left an awesome, awesome review. Just email me, trading secrets at jason tardick.com. Send us your address and we will send you something from the influencer closet. I'll just read a little bit of it, but it says it just gets better and better. I can't believe it's my first time writing a review. Every single episode gets better and better with their guests. I love how Jason weaves in Bachelor Nation, other reality star guests, and the normal people. There's a little bit more in that review, but I'm going to wrap it with that. And Megan Braz, thank you so much for that review.

For the takeaway. Something you got to know. There's a lot of trip delays. If you are traveling this summer, you should be pretty diligent with how you're planning it. Because the FAA predicted 45% increase in delays this year, and they have lived up to that. What's happening now is they suggested that airlines should have less flights, but that, of course isn't going to be the case because airlines are publicly trading, they've got to make that profit. But now you are seeing delays and cancellations everywhere this summer at a level that is

greater than they anticipated, and that was a pretty high level. So just be aware of that when you're traveling, and especially in New York. New York right now is only at 54% of the staff they should have, while the rest of the country is roughly around 80%. So there's short staff, there is some weather conditions, but the short staff and the weather conditions aligned with the prediction of a 45% increase of delays, which has been more than that, just buckle up and know that it's likely you're going to get delayed. If you have a layover, have a plan B. The second thing I'll tell you, which is more of a finance hack, go to your credit card right now. Call them and ask them what kind of insurances they offer. I learned through my MX Platinum that there is a trip cancellation

or interruption insurance. So it's up to $10,000 per trip, up to $20,000 per year that they will cover if there's a cancellation. If I get sick and I have to cancel my trip, I'm covered if I booked it through them. The second insurance is the trip delay insurance. So if my trip is delayed up to six hours. I can get a reimbursement up to $500 of incurred expenses with two claims per year. So it's a little hack that I tell you because your credit card, I guarantee has some benefits or insurances tied to it that you need to know. Write them down. I have them in my notepad on my phone so I can always refer to them. I'm looking at another one. There's a lost damage or stolen luggage. So I get $1, $1,250 for a carry-on that gets lost or up to $500 for check baggage.

I mean, the list is endless with this card, but with your card, I'm sure there are insurances and protections. Make sure you know them inside and out. So in this pre-trading market segment, I told you a little bit about Ben. I gave you a tip on traveling, gave you a credit card tip, told you a little bit about how much I made on a brand deal. But without further a deal, let's get to the main show, the one, the only. Ben Haggerty, a.k a.k.a. McLemore. Welcome back to another episode of Trading Secrets. Today, I am

joined by multi-platinum and Grammy Award winning rapper, songwriter and entrepreneur. Ben Haggerty, known to the world, is McLemore. In March of this year, he released his first new album in over five years titled Ben, which covers a portrayal of his life, including topics such as his struggles with mental health and addiction. On top of his tour and new album, he is launching a collaboration with Adidas on his vintage-inspired golf clothing brand called Bogey Boys, which he started back in 2021. Entrepreneur, music, fashion icon, touring Europe, then United States, and on top of it, he's taking stakes in Seattle's MLS and NHL teams, the Sounders and the Cracken.

Ben, what haven't you done? Man, I've done a bit. I've done a bit. It's good to have you on training secrets. It's good to be here. Thank you so much for being here. Yeah, thank you for having me. I'm never going to forget this story.

You and I, I'm on the left. Sergio's on the right. You're in the middle. We're walking down the golf course. And I say to Sergio, I go, Sergio, how many rounds do you play a year? And he goes, you guys guess. But do you remember what you guessed? No, I don't.

Okay, you said, I think around 200. Yeah. I said, I don't know, he's got a family. He's killing. I'm thinking 150. Yeah. He said, 325 plus every year. That's crazy.

That was our reaction. We're just like, what? Well, then I'll never forget what he said to you. He said, well, Ben, you're in music. Imagine if you took a day off. How could you be the best in the world? Right. Since then, I've been thinking about that,

especially because you took five years off. Do you subscribe to that philosophy and that career advice, that to be the best in the world at what you're doing, you have to be doing it? Oh, that's a great question out the gate, Jason. In a way, yes. And in a way, no. I think that my reps came from the age of, you know, starting at 15.

And I think that it took years and years and years of that philosophy to get me to where I am. I'm also not trying to be the best musician in the world right now. I'm trying to be the best version of myself. And I think that there is a big difference. I think that we are motivated by ego, social hierarchy, money, fame, prestige, the accolades, being called the best more than in our society more than we are in terms of how we're doing inside. And there came a point where I'm like, yeah, I could spend, I see the platform. I see the path. I see the trajectory of how that happens. You know, you lock yourself in the

studio and that's all that you do. And yes, you do get better at your craft. 100%. I agree with Sergio on that. But I have three kids. I have other endeavors. I fell in love with golf. I want to get good at all of it. And I want to just be the best version to me. And I think that's kind of cliche, but I think that that's true. I think that there is a point in which you get where you're like, I could get really good at rapping. But if I'm not centered, if I can't control my mind, if I'm spiritually unfit, then what do I have to actually offer the people that are listening to my music?

And it sounds like you're saying that from a place of experience, that maybe at one point you were chasing the ego. Maybe you weren't chasing the money. maybe you didn't feel as though you were doing those things. Yeah, I think that that's always the competition, right, against yourself. And it's not that I'm not, you know, that I've removed the ego or anything like that. Like, I'm in a three-piece suit. I didn't even wear the vest. You look damn good.

It's not that the ego's gone, bro. It's just that the priorities have shifted. And they had to shift because you watch these artists that are massive at the top of the world. and they're still waking up each day thinking about themselves. They want to do what they want to achieve. It's never enough. What next record they want to break. And it's miserable.

It's this rat race that does not stop. And I've been in that rat race before. And the fulfillment does not necessarily come along with the accolades. It's like, when is enough enough? And when I listen to your first solo in your new album chant, I mean, the opening lines are so powerful. I'm going to just repeat the lyrics here. They told me that I vanished.

They told me that I had it. They told me that I am gone. I told them, don't panic. When you have done it is long and you have seen magic. You know it won't kill you when the whole world doubts it. They can't take my stripes. They can't erase my hours. To me, that just hit so hard.

With five years plus of not releasing an album, from your standpoint, was there any concern of some of the things that you mentioned here was there some concern it wouldn't be picked up at the rate it would that when you wouldn't see the payoff of all the time invested that you put into this yeah absolutely I mean I wish I could be like nope don't care about public perception at all like absolutely that's a part of the whole thing because more than anything though it comes from people wanting to I want people to hear the music that's what it always comes to and not only hear the music but I want people to come to the show and I think five years happened partially because of COVID you know that the album I wouldn't

have taken five years and it's not like I wasn't making music in those five like that was the time that the album came out but we were done with the album way before like chant we made that years before I actually rewrote that first verse right before the album I turned the album in no way yeah that first verse like I went back and was like now this is the beginning of the album I need to set the tone differently And I wrote that. And I think that I was in the midst of like, yo, we have, we have TikTok now.

We have, you know, I mean, you and I were talking about you. You were one of the first people that put me on today. I was like, bro, you got to get your ass on there.

You got to do it. And I'm like, really? Like, you were one of the first people that like turned me. They'll be like, all right,

fine. And I think that there is like, there was so much fear and not so much, but there was fear around like, yo, I don't even know how this music industry works right now. And one of the main things that I love about

being an artist and the creative is the puzzle right like i love designing that shirt that you're wearing and figuring out where the the leopard goes and the collar and the right shade of pink so it's not too it's not too you know baby girl pink and it's not too sam and it fits right like that's a puzzle you know what i'm saying like a song opening lyrics that's a puzzle how do we put this together how do we make this the best version that it can be and with with all the new ways of music I'm like, yo, I don't know how to crack TikTok without spending like hours a day talking into my phone like this, direct to camera and spiritually feeling like sick. I don't want to do that.

I just don't want to do it. And I've done it. And I put time and energy into things that like it all is this like metric based system that damn, this performed well, this didn't. Why did it? You're constantly analyzing like why something work, why something didn't. terms of like these numbers and these you know yeah numbers bro life is like we don't get that much time here right we really don't we don't know we it's so fine that we don't know how much time we have

and am i going to look back at the end and be like man remember in 2023 when that when that ticot popped off no no i'm going to look back and be like i got to spend quality time with the people that i loved. I got to be fulfilled doing the things that actually brought meaning to my life. And no shade of TikTok, I think it's a great vehicle to get music out. And now people are picking, you know, the people decide. And you can't crack that code. Like there is no, there is no shortcut to that. Like you can't create a challenge. Like they're even past that. Like, people see through it. And the people decide what goes and what doesn't. It's the wild west. The dice are rolled. But the thing that with those lyrics, it's like, I, I, I,

still want people to come to the show because that is where I find meeting. I find meeting in connecting. And at a certain point with this album cycle, we put it out and like the album got great reviews. The tour literally sold out. Like we're in massive rooms and arena and all that. And I'm like, and nothing really went in terms of like a single. It didn't go. But the people are still there. And I'm like, oh yeah, don't get confused with the hearts that you have touched, with the lies that you have shifted, with the words that you have written, and the numbers on DSPs and TikTok. It is not reflect who's coming out, and that's where you find meaning.

I love that. And I love when you stay connected to your true self and don't worry about the numbers, whether you know it or not through the numbers, you're connecting with people. Yes. Life's a puzzle. Life has always been a puzzle for you, though. I want to quickly take a trip down memory lane. your career from 17 to 29, that was a bit of a grind, right?

17, you debuted as Professor McLemore, 2000, Open Your Eyes, EP. 22, you debut your first album, The Language of My World. That, from what I read, gave you a pretty strong local following. But it really wasn't until 29, you hit it big with the heist. But that's a 12-year career of working a puzzle. We talk a lot about career management and money management. What was your relationship with both of those in a 12-year grind of wondering if this is for you, will you get to where you are today?

Yeah. My ceiling, what I saw for myself, was like, yo, if I can play in like 500 capacity rooms in like major metropolitan cities in America, that's the ultimate goal. That was like, that would be it and be able to support myself off of music. Which around like the age of 23, I was, you know, making just enough doing local shows and selling merch to pay for like my, how much rent were we paying? Three-hundo? When you say just enough, give me an idea.

What does that mean? I don't know. $5,000. Hell no. Hell no. Hell no. No, no, no. I'm like broke underground rapper money.

Like, can I smoke some weed and can I pay some rent? And, you know, it just wasn't, I don't even, you know. How much money was I'm making a month? Two racks? Two racks a month, $2,500, maybe on a good one, three. Yeah, you know, and I was recording people in my house, in our house, in my closet, and this tiny, like, this room was not, this room was bigger than what my room was for sure. And like, so, yeah, it was years of that.

And I thought I was popping. I was like, yo, I don't have to work a nine to five right now. I didn't, you know, I didn't. I was a 23-year-old, like, I had nothing, but I loved the stage, and I loved getting in front of people, and that's always been my oxygen. There is no other choice, but the thing that got in the way was, like, I feel like I see the path if I can just get sober, because this is the thing that's like my Achilles heel. This is what's holding me back.

This is where I, like, I can't, it's a veil. I can't connect. I can't write music. and I've I'm dying so once I got sober at 26 I went to rehab and got clean I moved back into my parents basement I had no money I'm fresh out of rehab at 26 I'm like I blew my career like straight up like okay my my shelf life is it's over it's expired I'm 26 now I felt like I was a dinosaur which it's all relative right right and I went back into my parents basement I was like dude you've never like fully given this 100% because you've always turned to drugs and alcohol

to numb yourself to escape and I went back home I got in the basement and I wrote other side I wrote wings I wrote 10,000 hours I started writing thrift shop Ryan had this beat called you know I don't even know what the name of it was but it sounded like some soccer anthem and he kept being like bro you got a right to this and I was like uh that would turn into can't hold us Those are diamond record. Crazy. Those are diamond. Both of those are diamond.

And I wrote those in my parents' basement. And, you know, and then we moved into a small paint studio by Home Depot on Aurora. It's slowly built from that place of like, you know what? Let me remove everything that's been holding me back and pour it all into this music because I've always gotten distracted from the spirit by these drugs that I keep turning to. Unbelievable. And so in that period, though, at no point are your eyes off the passion of pursuing this direction, other than the distraction of numbing. No. No, I always, I had a mom that was just like, you're amazing. I would do anything and she'd be like, oh my God, look at what band did.

Look at that you are so creative. Like how, and from this very real place, and I naively believed her. and I think that that creates its own like, you know, maybe dependency issues or wanting public approval or whatever, but like I needed to believe in myself and I knew that I had a gift with words. I knew that I could rap. I knew that I could perform. I knew that I could perform. And it was that self-belief. And also the love of being like, you know what, I am going to make a song today. I'm going to take something, this magic. This thing that comes from nothing. I don't even know where it comes from.

And by the end of the night, I'm going to burn it on a CD. And I'm going to go to my two-door Honda Civic, and I'm going to play this. It's so good. So for me, right, I'm such a business mind. I'm so practical. I'm so logical. I see the things that you've done. I've seen the numbers that you've accomplished.

I'm blown away. We talk about can't hold us almost two billion streams. Thrift shop, over a billion streams. You're getting 29 million streams monthly. It's absolutely insane. And then I also see that in your first big album that pops off, the heist, you did everything strategically from a business perspective that was different, right? You approached ADA helps you push your music on the radio,

but no one in the industry had done it like you had done it. And so for me to think, oh, he wasn't focused on the numbers and he wasn't driven by money, but he still had all this business strategy and was one of the first independent artists that pulled off a structure like this with Warner Music Group. It's like hard to comprehend. Am I missing this when I say that? No, you're not. You're not. It is crazy. And it was a byproduct of divine timing of the cosmos lining up and just being, we had, we built it from the ground. We had, this was an underground strategy. Underground.

straight up underground and you know our manager at the time zach was just like we just played it right and finally we came out no one knew what we were going to do first week for the heist like no one had any any idea i was like we might do 20k first week this is a very different time period people 20k these days is like that's a solid first week 20k in my mind i'm like i bet we do like 20k and i remember i still owe a steak dinner ryan's assistant our assistant set McDonald's. Shout out Seth. Seth was like, I bet you do 80K. And I was like, bro, there's no way. He's like, bet me a steak dinner. I'm like, yes. I will bet you a steak dinner. And we did like 79 and some change. And Price is right rules. I technically won. But still, I'll give it to Seth. He was right.

And the industry was like, yo, what just happened? Like L.A. Reed, we had like a small like 500 person or like 1,000. person show in like bozeman montana and la reid and his entire staff came to this like grimy show to try to then like court us and like get us to sign with whatever label he was at at the time i forget but the industry then was like yo and we were like we got you i talked to some people in the industry prepping for this and they said no one could believe what you did because what happens is when people come out with an album they'll have 30 to 50 publicists behind They'll have a team of 100 plus. And the exact quote I got from one of my friends was,

these underground West Coast rappers come out with this album and do something that no one has ever done before. No one could figure out how. And it's just the magic of what you guys did. Can I ask you a question about the business? From an arrangement of being compensated, how drastically does it change when it's an independent contract versus signing with a label?

Oh my God. it's drastically different now again we have never signed a record label we have distribution through a DA and if we want to work a song to radio because ADA is under Warner records then we pay in Warner works we pay Warner we hire them and their team and then they work that song now that has never been done before it's still not I don't know who else does that that that was that was because we had the leverage and it was just perfect timing like it still blows in my mind that this is how it all panned out but like I don't know what's like a classic deal for one I mean you have 360 deals which are horrible which a lot of new artists take can you just explain

yeah so like a 360 deal would be like you're an artist I'm taking let's just say a third of your merch I'm taking a third of your touring and I'm taking you know more of your masters and you're publishing. Okay. So basically, like, I'm seeing revenue from 360 degrees of your career. Now, I have never paid a record label for anything that comes out of my merch, my, my touring. Like, that is all us. It's all coming to you. That's all. Yeah. We have, you know, our booking agent at William Morris and management. And everyone else that you see in the industry, like, is splitting for their most part, they're masters and they're publishing with their label, and a good deal would be like 50-50, a good deal. This is wild. So in the structure that you have,

you could make more in a five-year period with this structure than the same exact numbers, the same thing that you have done probably over like a 15, 20-year period. It's absolutely remarkable. One thing I want to ask you about is heist. I also had learned that it's very unheard of for producers to be listed with an artist on the track, Ryan Lewis and McElmore, well, specific order, McElmore and Ryan Lewis, was that something pre-negotiated too? Because that's another unconventional thing for the business side of the industry. Yeah, I think Ryan negotiated that at Jimmy Johns. I was like word. Yep. I'm down. And, you know, Ryan, it was a partnership. And it was an interesting partnership because we weren't like a band. You know, if we were just like, whatever, insert

band name, then it would have been normal. Yeah. But we were still wanting to keep our individual names, but it was, that was the, that was a squad. I love it. New album Ben drops. It's six on top US rap albums, 18 on Billboard, top 200. This is something I've always been curious about.

What does it cost to create an album? Like, what do you think the all in prices to actually create it? That's a great question. He probably knows the right answer. Let me see if I can kind of get around. And you got an idea? He knows. An approximation.

He knows more. But I'll say this. I would say like, because again, we're funding it, right? It's all funded for you. Yeah. But you're getting 100% return. But, but, you know, if I win, I win. If I lose, I lose, but it's on me.

And I'm not playing with house money. And I think that that's the pro of the major label system, kind of the only pro. They take the risk off the table. They take the risk off the table. and you know we've taken ls we've done dumb shit with our money for sure like we spent like a million dollars on a song that you've never heard of for like another artist like you know Aero's music video was like I don't know 800,000 dollars or something that like that was a mistake but it's not none of these are mistakes though I can't even say it's all part of the process and you have

to do that in order to be like yeah we probably shouldn't blow damn near a million dollars in a music video that's really someone else's song can I can I take a guess And you say over under? Can we try that? Yeah, yeah. $5 million for an album. Under. I'm going to say, okay, all right.

That's all I do. I won't pry anymore. Under. I would say between two and three. Okay, let me ask you this. When you guys put all this money into an album, do you have a time period in which you're trying to recuperate 100% of that back? I don't.

I don't care. I could care less. The motivation is the music. The music is already, the music is the magic. Like, that is what is going to bring the people to the show, which is if we're talking just about, like commerce that's what actually makes money the touring is what makes money so yeah you say those numbers about like the billboard or whatever and i'm like yeah it's not that high like whatever bro

and i'm like blown away no like whatever it is what makes money is getting people out of their houses and into an arena that's what makes money but again that's not what motivates me if i was motivated by that the music would be different it's funny like someone played me i was golfing yesterday and someone was like yo if you heard of this dude and i was like no and he was like you've heard this song before i was like no i don't i probably haven't i bought my own shit and like little wayne like i he he says the name of the artist and he starts playing the song and he's like this producer sent this record to you and i was like oh i have heard this song and i remember liking it and he's like bro this is about to hit a billion streams you should have done this and I was like oh man and it's a

good song too like it's not even like I would have compromised my artistic integrity like I liked it but I have to come back to like you know what you need those moments too to be like if something speaks to you try it you know if something doesn't speak to you don't try it but I want to connect with the people not for any other reason because that is what gives me purpose for people that are out there that are chasing the dollars that are getting lost by the numbers that are posting on TikTok and Instagram and only putting value to either the content or message based on how many people are watching. You've done it completely different and had all the results. What advice would you give them back home? I think we all need to go through whatever stage it is.

and there's people that will die unfulfilled searching for an imaginary number that they think is going to bring them happiness. And I've made a lot of money. I know that that's not, it has nothing to do with where I'm at spiritually today. It has nothing to do with my connection to my family. It has nothing to do with really like the spirit and what excites me to wake up in the morning. And again, money is a piece of the puzzle because it's how we measure our success, right? But I think that if you're only focused on that slice of the pie and the older I get,

the smaller that pie piece is. And I get that, like, you know, you get set for life and you're like, oh, yeah, sure, you don't care about money. Like word, like, I have to feed my fucking family, bro. And I'm like, I get that. So I'm not saying that money is like the root of all evil and that like capitalism needs to get torn down, like any of that. I am motivated by money.

it's just like smaller and smaller and the rest of it grows. And I think that whatever gets you up in the morning and makes you want to grind, like that hustle is beautiful. But I also know that the physical, the spiritual, the mental all play a factor into creating financial success. So like if we just focus on those numbers, if we just focus on the TikTok or just what's in the bank account, then we're missing out on what we can actually achieve by learning to,

to train our minds, to be more centered, to be more grounded, to have more meaningful experiences and conversations. That those are the things that actually bring true heart happiness and not just like, yeah, look at what I got. Look at this whip. Like, look at this. Look at this girl I got. You know, like look at what the wrist, you know, all that. And I trust me, I get caught up in it too. Yeah. I absolutely do. There's, there's a Rolex on under this suit. But I also know that this is fleeting and these other things are sustainable. And that's the priority right. there. The big things you've said to in previous interviews that I researched that really landed with me are what we've been taught in the Western world of what we need and what we are actually

taught doesn't lead to happiness. Yeah. Right? We're chasing the wrong things. And I think one thing that's really landed in some of the interviews you've done is he said, without the balance of service, you're still only thinking about me, me, me. Yes. Right? Yes. You can have it all and still show up for other people. And that could be as simple as taking a phone call you didn't have to take. Yeah. And for me, that landed so hard just even you didn't have to show up here you didn't have to do this podcast but the impact that your insight could have on just one person and me indefinitely saying i had the opportunity to interview you um that's powerful yeah you know i think i appreciate that and i appreciate the platform it goes both ways right i've been going through some transformation era that we

don't have time to get into the last six months and some really intense dark pain the last couple weeks. But what it's led me to is this entire new way of thinking of true surrender, of relinquishing control, of watching the mine go to like the bogey boys collab tomorrow and like I hope that it sells out in the first two weeks and what a zoo. Back to the present. What can you control right now? This is it. Future hasn't happened. We can't go back and shift the past. I'm right here. And all the sudden I'm like, oh, all of this pain has led me to this surrender, this control, this like, I just want that. It's like Varuka Salt from Willy Wonka. It's like, I want, you know, Daddy, Daddy, I want that. Yeah. I want to be present, bro. I want to control the mind to bring it back

here. And if you look at all the greats throughout society, one of the through lines is that they meditated, that they had a practice that brought them back to the breath, that brought them back to here because this is the only moment that exists and i think about the true surrender all the pain that i went through has brought me here and i'm like my heart feels fucking open for the first time in a really long time maybe ever and i'm like going to r a i the other day and i'm like buying a meditation like thing for the woods and like i'm like and i haven't bought anything all week and i'm like I buy shit all the time. Like I'm like on eBay every night.

Like vintage golf like 1997, you know. And all of a sudden I'm like, no Band-Aids right now. This is not the Band-Aid season. This is not the escape season. And so I'm checking out in this, and this woman was like really low-key, nonchalant. Hey, just so you know, your music's changed my life. Now, I have heard that a lot of times in the last 12 years. And you're like, oh, thank you so much.

I appreciate it. Like, you know, it becomes something that you just hear. And all of a sudden, in this era of transformation, she said those words and it almost brought me to tears. And I'm like, oh, I can feel now. That's awesome. I can feel this pain has opened this up, has created this, this reminder that if I can't control this, I'll never be able to reach here. Because this is where the true magic lies. This is where the music comes from.

It comes from the heart. you open this up you become a conduit if you stay up here the numbers won't make you happy and i could hear her words in a way that literally i'm walking out of ria i like damn bro i get in my car and i'm like that's what i want that is success that right there you can have nothing you look at like the monks you look at what they actually had they had nothing they had a sheet they're under a tree like let me get enlightened, let me find peace of the mind. That's greater than at all. It's absolutely brilliant. It's such great advice. We think so much with our head. We think about numbers. We think about logic. We think about practical thought processes. But those at the

end of the day just create a lot of securities and checking the boxes where when you open your heart, it creates connection. It creates impact, fulfillment. And I think more than anything, it creates legacy. It creates something bigger, right? Bigger. than everything. And it lasts more than any dollar amount will. It'll mean more than any number or build board chart wherever you're right. I think that's so powerful. Ben, I know you have a big, big event tonight with Bogey Boys and Adidas. There is a huge collab dropping. I'm going to give all the details in the recap. Stay tuned where you guys can get it. And we are going to be picking up some of those pieces and giving them away. So that is all coming. But I have to wrap with your trading secret.

You gave us a lot of secrets already. But you can't learn it from a professor. You can't Google it. You can't find it on a little TikTok tutorial. You can only hear it from Ben Hagerty, aka MacLamore, from the career that you've gone through or the financial decisions you've made. One trading secret that our listeners can take and apply to their lives financially or as a result of navigating their careers. I'll say this. And it's the most simple advice, but it has stuck with me my entire life. And it came from my pops. And he said, if you're going to do a job, do it right. And I always come back to that. And I'm like, you know, I'm up editing like a hype golf real last night.

Like I should have been sleeping, but I'm like, yo, is this the best version that you got? Can you make it a little bit better under the parameters that you have? I always come back to that. If you're going to do a job, do it right. And that applies to anything that you do. Do it right. Do it from here. Do it for the right reasons.

You can go really deep with it or just surface level. I don't ever want to give it 80%. I don't want to give anything 80%. I don't want to give anything 90%. I don't want to look back and be like, you know what, I didn't really try. Most people go through their life too afraid to fail than to actually try,

then to show up, to risk. What? This is not like, we're not in practice. Like this is not the preseason. This is our life. What do we want to do with it? And I want to be able to look back and you talk about legacy, I want to be like, and it doesn't have to be on a grand platform or

whatever. It's just like, yo, who's, who did I show up for? You know, where my friend's someone that they felt like they could call on, did I lead with integrity? Did I, did I show up even when I didn't want to? Did I give it 100%? You're going to do a job, do it right. It all comes back to what you said without balance of service. It just becomes you. These messages are some of the most powerful messages we've ever had on this podcast. They are greater than any dollar amounts or career stories. Someone could share negotiation tips. So, Ben, thank you so much for being on trading secrets. Thank you for sharing everything happening between your head, heart, and your voice. It's absolutely incredible. What you've done, we'll keep watching from afar.

Thank you, and where can people find everything that you have going on? Buggyboys.com, maclmore.com, maclmore, Instagram, whatever that is. And I'm on TikTok every day. and you're coming to the U.S. for a tour this fall, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, U.S. Most of it, most of it sold out, which is beautiful. Oh, yeah. And I think, like, you know, in the COVID era, you're like, you come out of that, you're like, I don't know what, who's going to come out to the shows, and in the U.S. came, came and bought tickets really quickly. So that's, that's a beautiful thing. And I appreciate what you're doing. And I think that, I think just the overall gift to give people a platform to share their stories is really powerful. And I appreciate the opportunity

to share mine. And just to go back and forth, it's always a great conversation. I'll never forget when we were golfing. And I bet on an up and down. You like gave me the opportunity. And Sergio made the putt. He went up and down. And he got up and down. He eagled it. I gave you. You were pissed, bro. I was like, oh, my guy's a gambler. My guy, I saw a different. The eyes got different. And then it was like, no, we're betting. No, double or nothing. What? And I gave you some impossible bed. He was like, you know, from like 200 out or something like, and I was like, all right. You gave me a handout, but I too will never forget that moment that Sergio from 260

out goes up and down all the odds in my favor. And that's the magic of McLemore and Sergio on one team. Jason Tardick will never be able to compete with those two. So thanks for coming on. Guys, bogey, well, bogey boys apparel, we're giving it away. Stay tuned to the recap. Thank you for being on trade secrets. Thank you, brother.

Ding, ding, ding! We are ringing in the bell to the Ben Haggerty episode, MacLamore, the one, the only. I am so excited about this episode, and David, I cannot wait to hear your take. But before we do that, bogey boys, it is an unbelievable golf brand with a very cool vintage style. We had bought four hats, but I'll tell you honestly, David's getting one, I'm getting one, Evan's getting one, that means we have one left for the money mafia. Just make sure you put a review for this episode, five stars, what you think, your biggest takeaway from MacLamore, or a guest you'd like us to have on moving forward.

And in next week's episode, in the intro, I will announce who the winner is. You will send us the address and we will ship it. And like I said earlier today in this intro, I just shipped something from the influencer closet. So I'm keeping my word. David, Macklemore, Ben Haggardie, what do you thinking? Where's the curious Canadian going? I just loved how you got right out of the gates. into the weeds with this guy. And his first response was, first question was, I'm not trying to be

the best musician. I'm just trying to be the best version of himself. I think overall, Jay, that kind of set this whole episode up on a tee. And where you guys took the episode and ran with it, I was captivated the entire time. I love that you were captivated. The energy in that room was pretty solid. And you know what? I'll tell you, the time was really limited because he had to go to this bogey boy's event. I technically only had 20 minutes. But, I could see his manager. And sometimes you hear him like kind of referring to his manager. Like how much was that? He was back there. But I could see his manager. I was reading him that he was kind of giving me the thumbs up to keep going. And then I talked to him later at the

party. And I said, sorry for going late. He's like, man, listen, I've seen Ben do a million of these. I know when he's vibing. He was vibing. I was like, we could be late. I let him go. So it was interesting. But that also caused me to be very direct, very in the weeds, which can be intimidating at times because a couple times I edited it out but he's like damn dude these are some questions man like some people need to be warmed up and you gave it to them right out of the gates but no I was going to allude to that some people when they see the episode doesn't know what's cut the 10 seconds before and 10 seconds after you apologize right out of the gates because it hit 37 minutes and he kind of gave a sigh of relief and he said man I wish we could have kept going and what

What I think is really cool is he made sure how many times in a 30 minute episode did he talk about making sure that he's in the present and not worrying about the future, what he can't control, and here he is in a 30 minute window that you have in his life where you caught him in his most present where he's now wishing he could stay in that present with you. I thought it was really cool, obviously a really well done job by you. And I think that you guys have a pretty awesome rapport and a relationship in a short period of time and short interactions that you guys have had with each other. So I just, you know, I guess my question is, how does it feel to be able to have that impact on someone who is

so centered in the moment in the present talking about all these things? I'll be honest with you. I think until I listened to it back when I was editing, it didn't totally click. But to hear those words were pretty powerful. And I think it was very clear. I was so appreciative of his time and his effort in him giving his service to us. But like just hearing his response saying like, you're doing really good things. And then full circle moment to the present when he talked about the REI and he opened up about that lady that said he changed his life. And Money Mafia, we talked money in this episode, right? We talked about the 800K from the music video that went away. We talked about his new album costing him about two, three million. We talked about

the independent artistry. We talked about what he made early on in his career. We could capture that in this recap. But I don't know, man. For me, this was deeper than the money. And he made that very clear. That's not what he's motivated by. And it has me rethinking a lot, right? Because when he talked just a little bit about getting aligned spiritually, getting aligned in the present, the greats of this world meditate and are so good at understanding the people in front of them, to me, that clicks, it clicks at a new level. And I have one quick story and I want your take on it, David, just this whole idea of how this episode was so much greater than money. But I was at an event this past Sunday. There's a gentleman there named Brett Wilson. Brett Wilson's a billionaire Canadian. He owned

part of the Predators. And he hosted a dinner for good people to talk. At the dinner, there were musicians after he said, if you guys could play just one song, there's no mic, there's no pressure, there's no performance, no videoing, just like play a song. And all these artists who are pretty well known went up and played a song. And my buddy I brought John Gurney, he played a song. And John went up to Brett after it and just said, hey man, thank you for having me. I can't tell you how much this little event really filled my soul. And Brett Wilson, the billionaire, who's running this party with all these actors, actresses, and musicians there, he said to John, and he had never met him. He's like, John, I really loved line four of your song. And he repeated the song back to John,

the line. John didn't even know if he was going to go talk to him. This guy's a billionaire. He's so successful. And he's still that present in every fucking word. Each person went up there and he could remember it and spit it back to him? I don't know. I was blown away by it and it connected me back to Ben's words. I think, too, what can be said for that situation and McElmore is I think sometimes people have so much perspective that gets them to that place. You know, was he that attentive to the music and the things around him while he was on his way to make his billions? Maybe not. But as you get those billions and you start realizing the bigger purpose and McElmore has a quote, you can have it all and still show up for others, right?

McElmore didn't have that perspective before he's in his mom's basement when he's addicted to drug use, when he's addicted to alcohol use, when he's just happy making $2,000 a month so that he doesn't have to get a regular nine to five. But all of a sudden, he goes through the success. He has the billions of streams. He's making millions of dollars in the industry. But now he's able to have the perspective of bringing back to home base,

do his meditation, to be able to be in the present. And sometimes I think our journeys are just differently where you have to go through those things on your journey as we get so hyper-focused about the tasks in front of us and the money that needs to be made to have the perspective at the end. I think it's a gift to be able to do it full circle while you're in those moments. But I think a lot of these people and these examples and the people that we end up getting so much gratification by that, hey, they noticed me. Hey, they took time. It's these people who have been really successful, but now have the perspective where maybe on our journey, we just haven't gotten there yet. But we will and we do when we try to acknowledge it when it's in front of it. of our faces. Totally. And that brings me back to the line he said, what can you control right now? And

Money Mafia, think about this back home. What can you control right now? This is it. Like, that's all we have is right now because the future hasn't happened and we can't go back and shift in the past. These are his words. And he said, and this one just stuck with me, I'm right here. And all of a sudden, the pain has led me to surrender this control. And he just talked about when he's able to surrender the impact that's making on all things in his life. And this is also just another reminder. When you get to that place mentally and you grow as a human and you're this self-aware and humble to recognize some of your weaknesses, the money and success comes because when you can speak these words and then act on them, everything in your life changes. The way

you can connect with people, the way that you can build yourself. I think the money and the success all comes as a result of these things. And it's pretty intense and it's pretty special. David, what else do you have regarding the episode? I'm actually going to piggyback off what you just said. The success comes when you get to this place. I personally think since he's able to be in this mindset and have this experience and now talk about it, I believe him when he says he's not motivated by money. He's motivated by the music. But I don't know. If you're listening, to this episode as a listener to trading secrets and then the next macamore song that you hear how much more connected are you going to be to that song oh i mean i've i've been listening to his music

like nonstop literally since this episode yes exactly so if he comes on this podcast and just toast this next album and da da da da da da yeah we're hoping to get billboard top 100 he doesn't give a shit about that he cares about connecting through the music because of that people are when they listen now that they know what he's about they're going to connect more they're going to support more They're going to download more. And the words mean so much more. And he said, they're going to show up to listen and use their time to listen to him. All the money's made on tours anyways.

So I think just being his true authentic self is going to make people connect more. I kind of like, too, David, how he took some ownership of the fact. He's like, I have a Rolex under the suit. Like the things I'm preaching are still things I'm working on. And I even caught him when he heard those numbers, 18 top billboard in the world and six in the top rap US. And he was like, man, those numbers suck. So clearly they're right.

already still this inherent, subconscious expectation regarding numbers built in his head. Obviously, that's something he's working on. David, I want to play just the intro to chant because I obviously said the words in the interview when I quoted them, but I think if you hear the song, it's a little better and this is powerful. So I just want to put it up there. They told me that I vanished. They told me that I had it. They told me that I'm gone. I told them don't panic when you've done it this long and you've seen magic and you know it won't kill you even when the whole world doubts it this is my moment they can't take my talent they can't take my stripes they can't erase my hours I'm from the underground anything above ground is a mountain

I'm done trying to impress anybody but the heavens where I'm headed you don't get to hold on to your flowers I am in my zone eyes. It's just so powerful when you start to hear the guy talk before you hear these words to know what he's gone through. And then I think it's so cool how he had that song written for years and then just added that in. But special stuff, really special stuff. I have to say, I have written down my notes, his voice is beautiful. And the way that he talks and the perspective that he has, how is he not a judge on a singing show? You tell me that he wouldn't have perspective for people's life stories and what they've gone through in the root of where their self-made singles come from and their journeys and their

stories. Like, I would watch TV and see that guy lean back in a chair and give his philosophy on why this person's the next star for what they've been through. I would love it. Let's put it out there. Speak things into truth. Get him on. America's got a talent, the voice, American Idol. The only thing I think about, like, this guy is so fucking real, David. He's so pure in his intention with everything. I could also see him being like, nah, I'm not doing. That's like, that's like pop culture. I want attention shit. You know, like I could see him like not even wanting to. do it. I agree with that. Do you know any other artists that are independent artists? Because there's only

one that I can think of at this level and chance the rapper. Do you know any others? And if so, what are the biggest kind of factors between an independent artist and someone who signs at the label in terms of risk reward as you go through the process of trying to make a career and a living out of those two things? What's interesting about that question, David, especially living in Nashville, is it's most people that are independent artists are the ones that can't get signed to a label and they're trying to get signed to a label. That's what I've learned. It's extremely rare to be a big artist and almost unheard of like McLemore and to then have the success as an independent artist. One of the reasons is because you need the power of corporate America, even if you're McLemore behind you. You need the

people in PR pressing you to get on the radio. You need the big executives who have connections at the top and all the big institutions to make sure your song is played and hitting the charts is being played. Those people get paid when you're signed to a label and they get paid a shit ton of money so their incentive to push is much stronger. To hear him go independent and then hire Warner Brothers for just assistance and paying them, it is absolutely unheard of. But the thing I'll never forget about it is that when I said in five years of success based on your current model, that may have taken 15 to 20 plus years when it comes to the dollars and cents. And he acknowledged it and said, yes, the money that he has made as a result of going independent is literally a minimum,

four, five, six, probably eight, probably eight to ten times any other artists that's with a label. His downside is he's probably not getting the push, especially with Ben, that all the other artists will get to make sure they're on the radio and make sure their voices out there. But what an unbelievable unique model. But you also, David, heard the downside of it. You're taking on risk. You put 800K into a music video and it flops. We're covering it. It's almost like a bare bones basic example is what we've talked about with the book, self-publishing or having a publisher. I have Harper Collins. They give me an advance a couple hundred grand, right? I know I'm going to get that couple hundred grand grand. For me to

get more than that, I have to sell enough books where the profitability per book is greater than that couple hundred grand. So if you hit a grand slam, you're getting screwed. If you don't, you're getting paid okay. So he's hit a grand slam and it's an unbelievable model. And John Gurney was my buddy on this one. And he was like, yeah, man, it was unheard of to see what he did, a West Coast underground rapper to get that much attention, to go that viral, not only nationally, but internationally, is unheard of and to sustain it is pretty much impossible. Ben Haggerty did it. I think that the music industry is probably the one where, when I say in air quotes, people, whoever they want to be a star will be a star. People who control the radios,

people control the PR, the advertisement, the marketing, putting the people in the events on the stages. So to echo what you said, someone to do it as an independent artist is just crazy. I have to bring this up. I know we're running a little long here, but you said two billion streams for can't hold us, one billion streams for thrift shop. He's averaging 29 million streams a month just making cake right now. Do you know what that translates to into dollars right now for our boy, McElmore, who doesn't care about money, who probably makes a lot of money? I mean, to think about where he came from at how his quote, two stacks a month and 23, but never looking back and always pushing for two racks. Two racks. That was it. Two racks. I knew you were

like, this is out of Jason's terms. Oh, this is way out. I had to like Google it after. Like, what are two racks? But two racks a month to see where he is now. And to think through all that, even barely being able to afford his weed, like he said, the only thing that put him back was drugs and distractions. And when he quit that, everything came to life was mind blowing. But when I looked up at labelgrid.com, David, what they said is that an artist gets a about 0.004 cents per stream. So if you do 0.004 cents per stream and he's getting 29 million streams monthly, that is 106K reoccurring revenue per month. And then when you look at the song that has two billion streams when you do the math, that's about $8 million just in Spotify stream money

he has made. So it's a crazy industry. He seems to have cracked it, but more than the money, the dollars, the sense and the numbers, just the stack ranking of the record, I think we learned from him a much deeper, more powerful meeting to life and career. Anything you want to leave us with David? No, I'm just going to end it with a quote he said. He goes, there are people that will die unfulfilled, searching for the imaginary number that they'll think will make them happy. I think what's really cool about McElmore is I think he's already seen that number come and I'm not going to say go, but he's on the next search of his life, which is just personal happiness, best version of himself, staying present.

You know, we talk a lot about some guests that we have, like, oh, I'd like to get a beer with that person after, get a drink with that person. I'd like to go golfing with Macomore and take a gummy and then get in the weeds about some stuff after the round. So I thought it was an awesome episode. Anytime I'm around him, I want more of them because he's such an intriguing, artistic, creative human.

And I love what he says. Four Grammy Awards, four American Music Awards, two Billboard Awards. The guy is an absolute legend. And if you go to the comments and give us five stars, Let us know what you thought about the episode and then also put in your biggest takeaway and or a guest we should have.

One of you will get a bogey boys hat. It's fresh off the collection. They retail with shipping and everything around 45, 50 bucks. They're unbelievable quality. So give us five stars. Put in the reviews. Follow us on Instagram.

Please go subscribe to our YouTube Trading Secrets podcast. And thank you for being here for another episode of Trading Secrets One. Hopefully you couldn't afford to miss. Money, money, money, living that money and money, living that dream. Making that money, money, money, pay on me. Making that money, money. Living that dream.