Trading Secrets - Negotiate like an FBI agent! Former FBI international hostage and kidnapping negotiator Chris Voss reveals the $ecrets YOU need to know when navigating relationships, business, and more!

Episode Date: June 19, 2023

This week, Jason is joined by author, entrepreneur, professor, and most notably former member of the FBI, known as the master negotiator, Chris Voss! Chris earned that title throughout his time serving as the lead crisis negotiator for the New York City division of the FBI, then as the FBI’s Chief International hostage and kidnapping negotiator.  In 2008, after spending 24 years working 150+ international hostage cases for the FBI, Chris founded the Black Swan group which serves as a consulting and training agency for both business and individual negotiating skills.  Chris gives insight to the process of being hired with the FBI, how volunteering at the suicide prevention hotline got him into the net negotiating group, taking advice from those who have been there, his work in the FBI with the World Trade Center bombing, 9/11, and Waco,  how there is always a deal killer on the other side, and the Oprah Rule. Chris also reveals what signs to look out for that indicate the deal is going bad, the last impression is the lasting impression, how curiosity may be the hack to body language, the difference between being likable and needing to be liked, how a playful tone of voice with confrontational words can make an impact, and the power of “no” oriented questions. Which federal agency pays the highest base pay? What was the worst moment of his professional career? When is the best time to fire someone? How can you get someone to actually listen?  Chris reveals all that and so much more in another episode you can’t afford to miss!  Be sure to follow the Trading Secrets Podcast on Instagram & join the Facebook Host: Jason Tartick Co-Host: David Arduin Audio: Declan O’Connell Trading Secrets Steals and Deal Whoop: To make it easier than ever to start, Trading Secrets has partnered with WHOOP to announced a new 30-day FREE trial. Go to join.whoop.com/tartick today to take advantage. Athletic Greens: Get a FREE 1-year supply of Vitamin D AND 5 Free Athletic Green Travel Packs with your first purchase at  drinkAG1.com/TRADINGSECRETS Better Help: Start today and get 10% off your first month https://betterhelp.com/tradingsecrets

Welcome back to another episode of Trading Secrets. I'm your host, Jason Tartick, and this is the pre-market trading segment where we do the intro. We talk a little bit about the guests. I give you a little context, a little bit what's going on in the market. and some things that are going in my life before we ringing the bell. And when we ring in the bell, we are bringing our guest on. But before we get to that, I think my energy is so high. I'm feeling so electric because it is summer, baby. Vitamin D is out. Gemini season is here. It was just my mom's birthday. Shout out to Mama Kaluch, June 16th. Caitlin's birthday is today. The day this

episode came out. June 16th, we just had Father's Day, and I just got home from a lot of traveling, was in L.A. interviewing MacL. Moore for Trading Secrets, interviewing the creator of the show entourage. He talks about what it was like to pitch HBO, how much they got paid per episode, per season, what the movie was like, all the details, what the actors got paid. That was nuts. And then we drove up to Vegas, had some work in Vegas and also interviewed Caratop. Now, Caratop has been a comedian for four decades. He is at a residency 18 years at the Luxor in Vegas, and we talk all about the money. So those are three great episodes. They're coming to you soon. Life has been crazy. And today, today at noon, I submitted my manuscript for book number two,

50,000 plus words, 200 plus pages. That is a huge weight off my chest into the hands of the Harper Collins editors. And so let me tell you, I can't wait to bring that to you. But before we get to that book or anything going on, we got to talk about the next hour and a half because this is a guest. Ladies and gentlemen, Money Mafia, this is a guest I've been working on for over a year to bring to you. Over a year. Why? Because with his work experience, I felt that he could literally change your life. I felt like he could change my life.

And he did. In the recap, you're going to hear David and I talk about the five biggest takeaways we had that we are going to effectively immediately implement into our lives. Now, what I need from you guys, go to Apple, give us five stars. At the end of this episode, tell us what your biggest takeaway is. Tell us what your biggest takeaway is. That's what we need from you. Make sure to put your name because in the recaps, after the guest comes on,

what we do is we give away something from the influencer closet. The influencer closet is we get brands, PR companies, agencies, sending us shit all the time. In Caitlin and I's house, we take it, for the most part, throw it in a closet when we have guests come over. we give it away, but now the money mafia's involved. So when you give me a review, I'm reading off a couple names in each recap, you're going to send me your address and I'm going to send you something from the influencer closet. Of all different values, you never know what it's going to be. That's the surprise. But today, who's the guest? It's Chris Voss. He is a former FBI hostage negotiator. So, in my eyes, this is the best negotiator that's currently living on the planet.

This is someone who had to negotiate in situations like the 93 World Trade Center bombing. This is someone who is tied to the Waco negotiations. This is someone who is in charge of getting prisoners of war released from the Middle East with his negotiation tactics, in which 93% of the time it worked. 7% of the time it didn't, and the hostages were killed. This is someone who had to negotiate with some of the most hostile, aggressive bank robbers who held these innocent people hostage,

and he was in charge of getting them out of that bank safely. So you can imagine through his FBI experience, through his hostage negotiation experience, the different tactics, strategies, and takeaways that he is able to provide all of us, things we could put into practice in our personal and professional world. And I'm not kidding when I tell you, he has forever changed my life with this episode.

There are things I will forever do because of Chris. Now, before we get into this episode, I think it's important. If you don't know about Waco, you should know about Waco. So Waco was a 51-day standoff between the branch Davidians and then federal agents. So the DEA was there, the FBI was there. The branch of Davidians is a religious cult group led by this guy that we talk about David Koresh. He was the cult leader. He was the one negotiating with the FBI. And unfortunately, with 51-day, of standoff. It ended in over 80 people getting killed. That's a negotiation that went wrong. We also talk about the 93 World Trade Center bombing, which I'm sure you know about, right?

Terrorist attack that was carried out February 26, 1993 when a van bomb detonated below the North Tower. This was an awful, awful terrorist attack, but they were unsuccessful in actually bringing the entire World Trade Center down. And you hear how this event actually led to the entire organization and hierarchy getting wiped out which gave bin Laden the opportunity to rise to power and we know what happened in 9-11 just absolutely tragic but you get to hear the perspective of someone in the FBI dealing with this so get ready you might even want to pad a paper for this one and if you don't just go to the recap where you'll get our takeaways but this is an episode you can't afford to miss there's one big event in the market last week that I want to make sure everyone is aware of

a previous episode I talked about how there was a 75% likelihood that the central bank would not raise interest rates. And we were right. The central bank did not raise interest rates in their two-day policy meeting last week. Now, this is the first time since March 22 that we haven't seen a hike. We as a country have been dealing with 10 straight interest rate hikes. We all feel it. We feel it in every way, shape, and form at the grocery start, at the restaurant, utility bills, the price of everything has gotten absolutely crazy. And now our interest rates are up to 6, 7% on a 30-year mortgage. But this is the first time there wasn't a hike.

We had 10 straight hikes since March 22 and the fastest pace tightening that we have seen since the early 1980s. So as a country, we haven't seen this type of tightening since 9,000. 1980s. And I feel like we're all feeling a little bit. Now, what does this mean? Interest rates are going to come down. Likely not. Most economists say that interest rates will certainly, certainly go up and will continue to go up over the long run. But the idea behind increasing interest rates is actually a tactic to fight inflation. So even though inflation rates will subside, it's very likely we'll see inflation go down. As consumers, there's one big thing I want you to be aware of. It's called

greedy inflation. It's the whole idea that prices will stay the same. Because if you're the restaurant, you're already raised your prices and there's already sticker shock to your consumers and they already feel it and they've already paid it now. Why are they going to go back? They're not. So now as consumers, we have to be that much better. We got to be that much better with our spending because while prices should be going down, they should be going down, they're going to remain high. So please watch what you're spending. Watch what you're spending. Watch what you're spending. spend less than you earn and let's go let's bring in the one the only chris voss let's ring in the bell this is an episode that will forever change your life give us five stars in the apple reviews tell us your

takeaway and get ready to go the one and only the best negotiator in the world let's ring in the bell with chris voss welcome back to another episode of trading secrets today i am joined by author entrepreneur, professor, and most notably former member of the FBI, known as the master negotiator Chris Voss. Chris earned that title throughout his time, serving as the lead crisis negotiator for the New York City Division of the FBI, and then is FBI's chief international hostage and kidnapping negotiator. After spending 24 years working 150-plus international hostage cases for the FBI, Chris founded the Black Swan Group, which serves as a consulting and training agency for both business and individual negotiating skills. Chris, we are so excited to have you. New York Times

bestseller, never split the difference, masterclass expert, the full fee agent, how to stack odds in your favor as a real estate professional. You have done it all. Thank you for you been on trading secrets. Yeah, man. I'm happy to be here. Thanks for having me in. Chris, we're going to get into negotiation tactics strategies. If you guys are out there looking to better negotiate with your partner, with your boss, just anywhere in life, we're going to get to that. Before we do, though, I want to get to your career track. FBI, we've covered almost every industry out there on trading secrets. FBI is one we haven't touched. What is the process to becoming an FBI agent? How do you get into the FBI, and how many steps does it take?

The stat that I was told at the time was for about every 10,000 applicants, one gets in. Wow. I put in the application. They run a background. They want to run an of a background on you to know you're going to clear it for security clearance as high as it gets above top secret ultimately and then if you clear the background they do an interview process and then at the time you didn't have to clear the physical before you got to Quantico they don't do that anymore you have to meet all the physical minimums before you even get there but the interview process is really the most important thing they want to see if you know who you are matches your resume and then if you clear the interview then you're there I heard rumors that they do a lie detector to And there are questions like if you have smoked weed more than like seven times or something, you're out. But if it's under seven times, you're eligible. Are there weird rules like that? Are those all rules?

Well, I don't know that that's all that weird. You know, it's hard to put an arbitrary number on a number of times you smoked weed, especially in today's day and age when it's been decriminalized. I grew up in Iowa, a small-town Iowa boy with Iowa Department of Public Safety. And at the time, they told me that you can smoke weed a few times you want to be in law enforcement. Everybody experiments with it at some point of time. It's silly to think that you didn't. Don't ever touch cocaine or anything worse.

And I thought like, all right, tell me what the rules are. Tell me what the parameters are. And I'm good with that. So did you smoke weed or did you lie about it? They're more interested in whether or not you're going to lie about something. Do you lie about it is really the biggest issue. Okay. So that one in 10,000, they want to know if you lie about these things.

they want to know all about your background, you get in. Then when you get in, we talk a lot about pay transparency. I read on the internet, you started around 50,000. Is that a fair number from a starting salary in the FBI? Oh, it's probably higher than that. Okay. That was ballpark where it was at the time when I came in last century. The FBI starts on it is higher than Secret Service, DEA, any of the other federal agencies.

So the base for FBI agents starts higher. Understood, understood. All right, Chief International Hostage and Kidnapping Negotiator. I want to back up before you got into the negotiating group. You're with the FBI. I heard you do an interview about a story where you're knocking on a woman's door to get into this group. She said no, she said no, she said no. And then she said, and you said, well, what can I do to increase my likelihood of getting in the negotiating group?

And she said, go volunteer at the suicide prevention hotline. Right. Go spend some time there. And you did it and you came back to her. And my understanding from your story is that she said, all right, you're in. You're only one of two people that had done that, which got you in. In that story, I'm curious, do you think it was the experience of actually being and volunteering for suicide prevention groups? Or do you think it was the actual action of doing something that she had requested and so many people not following through?

Yeah, it's both. Initiative and instruction. Do you take initiative? Do you take instruction? Ask somebody, you should ask. Never take advice from somebody who you wouldn't trade places with or hasn't been where you're going. Don't take advice from anybody else. But if you would trade places with them or they've been where you're going, they know what they're talking about. So ask them for advice, but then also follow it. A ton of people ask for advice. And if the advice doesn't fit their game plan, they're like, I don't want to do this. You know, I asked her what to do. It's initiative and instruction.

But find out if they know what they're talking about. Otherwise, the fact that somebody might be, right, is not worth risking your career over. But if they've been where you're going, you better pay attention. Because if you don't, they're going to notice. And then they are going to talk about you as someone who doesn't listen. And that's going to kill you. And we're going to get to listening and the power of listening in negotiation. I think that's a great piece of advice, though. Listen to those who have been there. You got into the negotiation group. You worked your way up and you've been bald in over 150 really, really wild hostage situations. Now, I want to ask you about a specific one. So you were involved in monitoring the New York City landmark bomb plot after, and it was three

years of investigating the 1993 World Trade bombing. So you're one of 500 agents involved in this task. When you go back to those days and you think about the work you're doing, and after that event, were there suspicions that something like 9-11 could happen after what you had already investigated and spent time on? No, not for me at the time. You know, the New York office, was working bin Laden hard when 9-11 hit. It was actually, there was a wrestling match. 9-11 happens. We got a brand-new director of the FBI,

Robert Mueller, who, by the way, was a very good director of the FBI. You know, the Trump investigation answered the fact, the Mueller report. You could take whatever point of view you you want on that. But he did a good job for the FBI. Anyway, dude's brand new. Like, he has been on the job six months.

And bang, 9-11 happens. So, first of all, I was talking about splitting the FBI. Homeland Security got created as a result. Compromises are always bad. Homeland Security was this mismash that they threw together. They were still trying to straighten out. But Mueller's on a job, and the New York office is on top of bin Laden as much as possible through the African embassy bombings and getting pushed back from everybody. Agency is not cooperating. Agency is keeping the information to themselves. And they haven't hit here, and the U.S. government at the time, is only really interesting.

interested in terrorist events that have happened here. So there's tons of obstruction. Mueller's in charge. It gets pointed at Ben Laden really early on. And the New York office is on the case and they're running it and they're ready to go after him. And Mueller's like, but headquarters are supposed to be in charge. So he's like, okay, I'll just transfer in New York to Washington, D.C.

And he brings, just transfers the leadership and the agents and he all come down. And then they get on top of it. and, you know, the obstruction in intergovernment obstruction turf battles. So, you know, there were indicators within the U.S. government that this plot might be happening, but that the interagency idiocy is obstructing the government's ability to get on top of it. And I remember shortly after First World Trade Center bombing, there were a lot of people that were predicting this going to happen. We've got to be ready if something like this happens again.

And I remember the first year or two thinking, look, we wiped these guys out. I mean, we took out their leadership. We took out their operators. In point of fact, the fact that we took out their leadership opened a room for bin Laden to move into power. The guy that we locked up that was in a leadership role was a competitor for the leadership to bin Laden. Interesting. And by us throwing him in jail, the blind shake, it cleared the way for bin Laden to move into a leadership position. Those two guys were effectively rivals.

And so we took him and his people out and a vacuum got created and it was overseas and Afghanistan. The U.S. didn't care about Afghanistan at the time. You know, it was, and so it gave him a place to flourish and run things. And they got our attention when they hit us again here. Interesting. So wiping out essentially his biggest enemy and then some obstruction within our own internal system potentially led to what happened. That is wild information. I got to ask you about 150 plus hostage situations.

When you look back at your career, what was the worst case scenario of those situations and what was your biggest negotiating learning lesson? Al-Qaeda in 2004-ish time frame was murdering people on camera. And turning the tide on that took months. And we knew that we were turning the tide, but not quickly enough to save some people's lives. And from the beginning on several of those cases, like every indicator was that they were going to kill them. And it's very hard to work a case, no one is going bad. I'm working a case in the Philippines, and Burnham-Sabarrow case. Martin and Graysian-Burnum, Guillermo Sabarro, three Americans that got grabbed with a bunch of other Filipinos.

And that thing was a train wreck from the beginning. And there were times, though, that we thought that we were going to get them out. Just for it went really bad at the end. It lasted 13 months. About three months in advance of that, not only did we think we're going to get them out, Some of the bad guys that family members' reps were talking to were coaching family member representatives, coaching behind the scenes. Even the bad guys, some of the bad guys thought they were coming out, thought we had a deal and they had an internal double cross. Internally, that went bad.

Gierma Cibarro was murdered about three weeks into the beginning of the case, and then at the very end of it, after a number of Filipinos had both been murdered and released, there was a botched rescue attempt where Martin Burnham was shot and killed by friendly fire, and Gratian Burnham was well. wounded and that that was the worst moment of my professional career for a while I used to I felt sorry for myself and I thought it was the worst moment of my career and then I thought to me this was a job this wasn't my father that got killed yeah and I and I felt I was a little ashamed to myself but we thought that case was going to turn and we learned a lot from it yeah you know that that that went bad unexpectedly and then we had to get better when you look at it of course so many uncontrollables What would you say the number one takeaway is from the learning lessons from a negotiation standpoint within that case?

The phrase that we came out of it with, there's always a team on the other side. There's always a deal killer on the other side. Everybody's way into talking to the decision maker. When a point of fact, the deal killer, the obstructionist who's not coming to the table, will kill at least 50% of the deals. The deal killer is as important, if not more important than the decision maker. And the deal killer killed us in that deal because they were unsatisfied. they weren't involved in the negotiations directly, and this person consequently had an interest in making his internal competitor look bad. And he was offended that he wasn't involved in

negotiations. So what he did was he set back and when a deal had apparently been struck, then on his side of the table, he torpedoed the deal. I just have a few more questions that relates to the FBI stuff, especially with negotiation, because from these experiences that we don't here. We can learn so much. But you talked about deal killers and how that hostage situation was one of the worst moments in your professional career. That's not as highly publicized. Those are stories we don't hear, but one we always hear about. Documentaries, series is Waco. Right. 82 people killed. We've seen it on every single streaming service over and over. And David Koresh, right, he was the deal maker. He was the decision maker. When you analyze that as a

professional negotiator, top negotiator for the FBI. What would you have done differently that wasn't done there? See, while Waco was going on, we were up to our eyeballs in New York City with First World Trade Center bombing. First, I think Waco initiated with the ATF on February 24th. First World Trade Center bomb when it was February 26th. Like, they were almost simultaneously. Interesting. And it didn't turn into an FBI siege until after the First World Trade Center bombing. And so I, Otherwise, I'd have been at Waco because I was a hostage negotiator. And my former boss was running the operation. Wow.

And the real problem there, the documentary that I've seen, the only one I've seen on it, that my boss was in, Gary Nessner, a Netflix American Apocalypse, which is fair. It's a very fair documentary. And to watch it, if you understand the holes that have been left out, it's fair. So first of all, Koresh was never coming out, ever, period. No matter what. No matter what, because he was 33 years old. complete sociopath, in my opinion, did not believe he was the son of God, but portrayed

everybody that he was. And when Christ was crucified, Christ was 33. So Koresh cannot come out. If he comes out, he's a fraud. He's by definition, Jesus Christ didn't live to be 34. Koresh got to die at age 33 if he's cornered in that position. As a matter of fact, I think it was probably always his intention to die at that age because the myth that he created required him to die at age 33. So then the real issue is, was the way that the Bureau brought it to an end stupid? Yes, it was. Could they have gotten more people out than they did? There was a tremendous internal disagreement as to the approach.

And my former boss, Gary, who wanted to continue with a negotiation strategy that was not heavy-handed, got kicked out. of Waco because he was so adamant about we do not need to crank up the pressure on these people some people would say yeah you know well you're kissing their ass well if people are coming out by kissing their ass i'll kiss their ass continue to kiss their ass we're still getting people out just because we're never going to get caress out and you never were and a number of other things happened behind the scenes a hostage negotiator who's since deceased biren sage who was also a friend of mine was principally the one that spoke to him and there was a point in time for example that Byron connected with Quresh's number two guy.

And I know that's because Byron has told me about it, plus they were overhears on the inside. So Byron meets, I can't remember the dude's name, but he meets him face-to-face outside. They do a face-to-face. Byron goes forward, H.R.T.'s covering him. And they meet face-to-face. And this guy goes back inside,

and he literally says to Koresh, Byron Sage is an honest man. We can trust him. Koresh never allows his number two guy to speak to Byron again. And that tells you every day. at any given point in time when Koresh felt the government was gaining the upper hand

then Koresh blocked it, obstructed it. He did a number of things to stop the internal bleeding. Another thing that was not in the documentary, but that I know happened. Because in the documentary they showed that the Bureau was filming the hostage people that came out to prove that they were

good, treating them with respect. Right. The kids. They're filming the kids. They're filming the adults and they're sending the films back inside. And Koresh is telling his people, oh, when you get out, they're going to handcuff you, they're going to beat you, they're going to abuse you, they're going to do all these horrible things to you. They're going to abuse you. And so Gary says, all right, you know what? We'll film the people. We'll show you a video of them being treated with respect. Like, even if we put them in handcuffs, we'll do it

respectfully. We'll prove to you that David is lying to you. So the last person that came out, this particular individual comes out and he says, I refuse to be videotaped. Coresh sends this dude out with the explicit instructions to refuse to be videotaped so that then he could say hey you know what happened to Bobby you know we ain't got no video of Bobby they must be lying to you about how they're trying Bobby's the last guy to come out and there's no proof that he's being treated with so there were a lot of things like that that were going back a fourth gamesmanship that Koresh was doing to keep people from coming out and he was 33 when a thing went down. If you're Jesus, you got to die at age 33.

Just disgusting manipulation in its highest form. And to see the result of it, 82 people killed. Is it fair to say that some situations, especially like that one, you just can't negotiate? A thousand percent. And Gary had been telling me for years, best chance of success. And then I realized like, oh, by definition that means there's no guarantee of success. Just what we're doing works better than anything else does. And when I'm teaching business negotiation now, I tell people like, if you got some negotiation guru out there that's guaranteeing your success, walk away. Nothing works all the time. What you need is what works more than anything else does. Also, there are alternatives ways of success. Just because it's good doesn't mean it's the best. Just because you succeed some of the time doesn't mean

your batting average is as high as it should be. As a general rule, hostage negotiators are successful 93% of the time. Domestic or international, that's a pretty good number. Which means 7% of the time things going bad. Another thing that Gary taught us that I'm grateful for, which I've applied to the business world, he said, all right, so if it's going to go bad, they're probably earmarks, clusters of behavior. Behaviors probably fits a pattern. Pattern might be recognizable.

And he came up with a block of instruction, high risk indicators. Look for these nine signs. You got any one of these nine signs, you better be prepared for the fact this could be one of the 7%. And we teach people that in business. Like there's some people you're never going to make the deal with. It's not a sin to not get the deal. It's a sin to take a long time to not get the deal. And then when you look for the patterns of behavior, they start jumping out at you. You can pick it up very early on and recognize that this is never going to happen. What are those nine signs? The biggest one in business is when the other side is over focused on one single term. They are shopping you. We have a phrase, the favorite and the fool, or proof of life in hostage negotiation, do the bad guys have the hostage?

And are they going to give them to you? Is the hostage alive? Are they going to make a deal with you? It's two very distinctive concepts. Hostage could be alive. They might not have any intention to give them to you. They might not have the hostage.

They're criminal gangs and several parts of the world that are famous for finding out if somebody's been kidnapped and then calling the victim's family claiming to have the hostage. So do they have the hostage? Is a hostage alive? Are they going to give them to you? Business, there's due diligence.

There's low bid. You know, if you don't know who the fool in the game is, it's probably you. They got somebody that want to do business with. They've been told from a boss to get competing bids. You know, don't go with this company, but find out what they have to say because they might tell you something. That's the fool in the game. They're overly fixed on price. they're overly fixated on one specific aspect of the entire package they're most likely shopping you

and they have a favorite and you are not it pick a business everywhere there's always somebody that there is their favorite that's human nature they've picked out a short list they've done a lot of research they've focused in on one particular provider and they would like that provider to cut their price, but for other reasons, they don't have to have it done because that provider has won a beauty contest already in advance for other reasons. So if they're talking to you, they really, really, really just want your price. Or they really, really want to know how you're going to deliver. Then you're being shopped. But if you're talented enough to identify that, that you're in the 7%, that you are being shopped, that you do have a David Koresh, who you know

wasn't coming out or you have someone that is just shopping you and they know they're not going to buy from you if you're good enough to identify it or if you're in a conversation like a relationship and you know you're just not going to win the argument you've identified that 7% the big question is what do you do because in waco they went into destroyed and some situations it blows up what do you do in that 7% yeah all right so we'll separate the waco issue what you know what might have been done differently in waco separated out from business scenario but in business we live by what we like to call the Oprah rule. The Oprah rule.

And that is the only non-hostage negotiation term that we use. I learned that first at the Chase Bank, under the guidance of then NYPD hostage negotiation commander, Lieutenant Hugh McGowan, very talented dude. They go to put me on a phone in the Chase Bank. It's been stuck. It's not going anywhere. We're about five hours in, complete stalemate.

McGowan goes to put me on the phone. He says, now I want you to control how every conversation ends. And the Oprah rule is the last impression is a lasting impression. The most important impression, how you take over any conversation is how it ends. Because how the last conversation ends sets up the next conversation. First impression is almost a complete throwaway. Wow. I've never heard that. Yeah. It's the first time I've ever heard that. Last impression is lasting impression. And I'm talking us through a couple of years ago with Cindy Mori, who was Oprah's Booker at the time.

we're kicking stuff around her and I have both spoken on a panel in Chicago and she's like yeah she's that's Oprah's rule forever like in the entertainment business it's usually in a limo out in a taxi you know they treat you great up front all this fan for hey happy to have you see you know you show up on a show you do whatever you think and then they say goodbye and you go out and they they took you there in a limo but they you got to go out on the street and hailed down a taxi to get out of there and she says at Oprah it's in a limo on a limo she said when Oprah has made sure that no matter What happens, no matter how it's gone. Even if there's an argument, people will feel loved and valued, especially when they walk out the door.

And I have had some conversations relate to me in very specific terms, some very reliable sources, of Oprah taking people to the woodshed over their behavior. And at the end, she always finished with, like, you know, I will always love you. I will always be supportive of you. the decision of what you do here is completely up to you if you decide not to do the show you have my undying love devotion and support for the rest of your life wow the last impression is the lasting impression and so if you end positively you know your original question you got a seven percenter somebody's never going to make the deal with yeah most people would finish that conversation with a cheap shot of course the last impression is lasting impression or ghost are just like i'm done with you or whatever We counsel people to figure it out early on and then say, and I have said this to clients. I've said, when you're ready to make a mutual commitment, we will be there for you for the next 20 years. I would love for today to be the day you look back on 20 years from now and say, that was the beginning of an amazing relationship. And when you're ready to make a mutual commitment, we will be there for you.

And we'll talk to you when that day comes. It's interesting just how my body and brain responds to you giving that example. I'm like feeling warm just thinking about that. So if you use that example in a real negotiation in real life, think about the impact they'll have or the Oprah scenario. Just you explaining it. Wow, that makes a lot of sense. Okay, it's a perfect transition.

We're going to put FBI behind us. Everyone's been waiting for this moment because they're like, okay, this is the stuff I could take to my life. I want to talk about negotiation in two ways. I want to talk about the words that we can use and the tactics. And then I'll talk about everything else. Right. Let's start with everything else.

Let's start with body language. In a meeting, in an interview, in a sales pitch, in anything, a date. What are some things to be aware of? I'm sitting here thinking, I've never thought about my body language, but because I'm with you, I'm thinking, am I sitting back to what? Am I sitting? How do I act? What is your take on overall body language when entering a discussion of negotiation?

Your inner voice betrays your outer voice, your inner mindset betrays your body language. You know, just be curious and attentive. And your body language will take care of itself. You know, there's this nonsense about mirroring the other person's body language. You don't take the same pose they do. The manipulators do that. Now, your body language may fall into place with the other person and you may end up physically mimicking each other some. I actually try not to do that

because the manipulators do it. Now, I'll find myself falling in line with somebody because I'm really attentive. And if you're actually attentive, your body language often will intend to start to line up. But if you're just really genuinely curious, that'll take care of everything because then you're going to contemplate what people say.

You know, how often should you lock eyes? How often should you look away? Well, when you're thinking about what somebody says, you're going to break eye contact. Yeah. And then whatever your natural thinking pose is, looking up to the left, looking up to the right, looking down, everybody's got their own contemplative look.

So just be genuinely curious. Now, curiosity might be the hack. The mechanism. A guy who's read a lot of his stuff, seen Nicholas Tyler wrote the Black Swan, He also wrote, which inspired the name of my company, by the way. His example of what a black swan was the impact of the highly improbable. He borrowed it from European phrase.

It was a great example for my company. He also wrote a book called Anti-Fragile, which is fascinating. He coined the term. He says, being curious is an anti-fragile characteristic. And my company, we've always talked about curiosity. It is a superpower. You can't be angry and curious at the same time. It's impossible.

You're in a positive frame of mind. You're 31% smarter in a positive frame of mind, which means you hear more. You're more mentally agile. You see patterns quickly. You have more mental endurance in a positive frame of mind. The mindset of flow is a human performance at its highest ability is highly positive.

So when you're genuinely curious, you're listening, you're contemplating, you're thinking about what the other side's saying. Your body language is ridiculously encouraging. You'll take your head slightly to the side. You'll raise eyebrows at different times. The other side will see that you're actually listening. So short answer is if you're genuinely curious, almost everything else is going to fall into line naturally.

If you're genuinely curious, the rest will come. Knowing that, how do you get someone to start thinking positive about you if that's going to positively influence the outcome? All right, so being genuinely curious, emotions have contagion for neuroscience reasons, not for psychology reasons. So if you're in a positive, if you have a positive demeanor, that's going to be contagious. If I smile at you, if you hear my smile, there will be a neurochemical change in your brain, which means it's involuntary, which is going to lean you in a positive direction. When somebody smiles at us and we smile back, we don't choose to smile. The smile actually got triggered inside of us. Your tone of voice is going to impact somebody's velocity of thought.

So when you're positive, when you're likable, that's going to be contagious. And there's a real fine line there that's tremendous to understand. You don't have to be liked. Like a lot of people, like, I might be determined that you've got to like me. I've taken myself hostage. If I'm likable, if I'm charming, if I'm trying to win you over, I might not win you over. That could throw me off my game. There's some very predatory people that understand if I just act like I don't like you,

you're going to start giving in. So there's a difference between being likable and needing to be liked. To be curious in what somebody says makes you highly likable. There's an emotional contagion of positivity back and forth. So if you maintain a positive demeanor, it's going to seep into the other side. If you're relentlessly positive, you can even win over somebody who's trying really hard to be negative. They can't help themselves because it's a neurochemical reaction.

Interesting. You said tone. Tell me a little bit about tone and inflection and how people should think about it when they're negotiated. Yeah, you know, we think that tone has five times the impact of the actual words. And if you open your mind to recognizing the data in the world, it's pretty clear. A lot of people put a number of different ratios on how much is tone, how much is body language, how much is the word choice. And I get people arguing with me all the time over this. And they're usually people who put a lot of effort into their words.

and they love their words to be precise if they're an academic and they write for a living, then their word choice, they're like, well, my word choice is far more important than tone. And I can say, all right, so here's an example. I can say,

wow, that was an insightful remark. And you're going to feel my regard and respect for you and a genuine consideration of the remark. And I could go, wow, that was an insightful remark. And that was derogatory. Totally.

I got a 180-degree return in the meaning using the exact same words. So tone is, tone's a game changer. How do you calm yourself down in situations where your tone naturally wants to take over? I want to yell, but in my head I have to calm down. What are tricks you use? You can think of a couple of different ways. I think of it as prime and a pump. Like if I've got myself already in like a playful, enjoyable, likable demeanor,

and I'm sort of in that game for the day. That'll carry me through because I get triggered by some people. And I'm a naturally aggressive person, but a third of us are. And so if my natural tone of voice is I sound like I'm either angry with you or I think you're stupid.

You know, my son Brian again, you know, he had a funny imitation of me. He says, all right, this is Chris Voss. This is what Chris Voss would say. I'm not that smart, but I'm smarter than you, and that makes you an idiot. I'm like, okay, yeah.

Nailed it. I do that with my tone of voice. So the other day, for whatever reason, I'm in a pretty playful mood. I'm in a good mood. Like, playful, like you can get away with good stuff, playful. So one of my pet peeves, I was sit on the aisle in the plane.

Oh, business class, as a general rule, business class people I found to be ruder than people in coach and an economy. I think that's fair. I coach an economy, you know, they're kind of, we're all in this together, You know, we've got to be nice to each other. Like, I've almost never had anybody be openly rude to me in economy,

and it happens in business class all the time. Somebody in business class are like, you know, I'm a success. I want my space. So the window seat typically, the middle area between the two seats for the leg room, that's my space. And the window seat guys, since they can't get up and get to the overhead, they'll knock themselves out to get on a plane ahead of you

so they can throw their bag in your leg room. and expect you to say, to complain. I do. But, you know, I'm not thinking about it the other day, and I jump on a plane, a dude's already in there. He's got his bag in my leg room. And I don't notice it until I put my leg down, and I got a bad right knee, so it automatically sort of hits my knee wrong.

I hit them. And I go, oh, wow, I guess that's in my leg room. And I say it like that. And my natural tone of voice would have been, that's in my leg room, which would have been like confrontational would cause a problem. But since I said it jokingly, you know, this guy just, I didn't even ask him to move it.

My tone of voice hits him right, and I see him physically shift and sort of wake up, because he knows what he's done to me. And he just leans down, he picks up the bag, and he moves it. So the tone can get you what you want. Playful tone of voice, confrontational words, but a playful tone of voice, with somebody who knows he's intruding and he just leans down and he moves it back.

Interesting. And another tactic you will use to kind of bring people down is you'll say your name, right? If there's confrontation or aggression, one of the things you recommend is instantly can diffuse a situation by just saying your name so that they have a personal connection to you. And that's what people get wrong in business all the time too, because they're like they want to learn your name, and they want to batter you with your name. Hey, Chris, Chris, Chris, Chris, Chris. Yeah, yeah, over and over.

The manipulative types do that. If I give you my name, then I allow you to choose or not to give me your name. And a mere fact that it's your choice, I don't ask you for your name. I go like, hey, I'm Chris. And I let you fill a space. If you don't give me your name further on down, I might ask, but I let it be very, voluntary as to whether or not because your name is very precious to you and I don't want you to feel like I pride it out of you now if you've given it to me I'm going to appreciate it I'm going to

work hard to remember what it is I'm going to love to find out what's unique about it you know somebody in your family that name your parents pick that name for a reason and you know what it is and I'm going to appreciate it if you give me the opportunity so you're not going to ask for it you're going to just put your name out I'm Chris, and then you'll give them the opportunity to give it to you. And if they give it to you, it's a sign of somewhat of peace or whatever. Right, right. But even if they don't give it to me, I become a human being.

Like, I've confronted people in some volatile confrontations, either with me or near me. Yeah. And I'll, I give my name and let it go. And then I go from being some nameless person they could have a confrontation with to be in Chris. and it's harder to hurt Chris. What about this one? Time a day. I just had a friend tell me that he was consulted

by this big, famous, expensive HR consultant that he had to fire someone that had to be at 4 p.m. on Friday. And I'm just curious of psychology of time of day with anything, saying yes, saying no, asking for something, firing someone. Are there any stats or theories on time of day? So, all right, so he's asking for good reasons

the HR person, that's horrible advice. Another misconception, debunked. Four o'clock on a Friday is a cowards firing. I mean, a lot of people do something where they say, well, I'm trying to do it, be nice to you. Point of fact, you're trying to save yourself. Interesting. Now, I fired people, and we've had these conversations.

And somebody who really cared about people said, look you fire somebody on a Friday you have ruined their whole weekend what are they supposed to do other than go in a tank and feel horrible because they can't they can't do anything on four o'clock on a Friday how they're going to salvage their life yeah he said you know you think that you're doing them a favor you're saving yourself by finding them on a Friday fire them on Monday you think it's a horrible way to start the weekend point of fact it's their best advantage to get back up on their feet it's the beginning of the week they're gonna nobody likes to get fired anyway give him fire when they got a chance to pick

their life back up immediately first thing on a monday morning to you it sounds like a horrible way to start the week to them how we're difficult it is they get back on her feet as soon as they're ready you fire somebody on a friday they got to they got to live with that for two days they can't do anything about that don't fire somebody on a friday fire him on a monday interesting but who you're really trying to save with that you're trying to save yourself it's a coward move i love that That's good advice, but there is something with the Black Swan Group that also says, if you're looking for a yes, you want to ask it, rephrasing a question because people are most comfortable saying no.

Yeah, we're out of the yes business. We don't ask people to say yes, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever. And why is that? Because yes is typically, first of all, there's three kind of yeses, commitment, confirmation, and counterfeit. Now, the vast majority of yeses are counterfeit because someone is trying to manipulate them with confirmation yes. So it's a bullshit yes. It's fake.

Yeah, because like, would you like to make it? more money yeah okay would you like to have a better life would you like to travel the world for free and stay in five-star hotels yeah you're going someplace with this you're trying to trap me with this it's called yes momentum momentum selling now there are a lot of people that'll say yeah i make deals all the time with yes yeah just not as many as you could you're playing at the 10% wind table in vegas and i can move you to the 80% wind table if you get out of yes you can't tell me I can never tell you that you don't win some of the time it's this best chance of success thing that I was talking about before just because it works doesn't mean it's best what's the

best chance of success since everybody's been flim flammed and bamboozled with yes then everybody gets immediately suspicious when you start getting them to say yes there isn't a single group that I've ever been in front of when I've been trying to get you to get him to grasp I said you're on the other end of the phone the voice says have you got a few minutes to talk what's your instant gut reaction everybody goes like no

what do you want to talk about what is it what do you want how much time you know what do you want for me it's instant defense instant instant defensiveness and I go like all right so that's your reaction when you call somebody on a phone what do you say and I go like oh yeah

I hate picking up phone calls by the way for that reason yeah so what do I do I do So what we all ask is now a bad time to talk. You get one or two answers. The act of saying no makes people feel safe and secure, which consequently clears their head. The act of saying yes makes people concerned about what kind of hidden commitment is there, what hook is there, and instantly creates anxiety.

All you're going to do is now a bad time to talk, and you get one or two answers. Having felt safe and secure, they'll go like, no, no, no, I got 15 minutes. or yeah it is a bad time but I can talk to it too I've never had anybody not give me an alternative time I need their focus okay I don't I don't need you taking my call when you're on a Zoom call right which is why I send a text message is now a bad time to talk or on the phone or what I ask people what have I caught you in the middle of

okay because people you know they're usually in the middle of something and so they can navigate it. I want to know what's going on in your world. What have I caught you in the middle of is an appreciation for your time also that you might be in the middle of something and so I need to know what that is. So it's now a bad time to talk.

What have I caught you in the middle of? But I'm triggering no constantly. And then no across a board. Do you disagree? No. Is this a bad idea? No. Interesting.

Do you just gravitate to say no. All of the questions. The good and bad of this is, is switching from yes to know creates such an instantaneous improvement of people's production performance closing ability everything across the board that sometimes that's the only thing they learn which is a shame because you don't have it's about triggering a decision versus actually listening okay and on the first thing everybody that comes into my company almost everybody learns no oriented questions right away

because once they catch on and then they get an instantaneous improvement in everything they do, then they're addicted to it. And they don't really understand. It's a decision-making trigger that's highly effective, which is separate from actually listening.

And that's a secondary move. And typically when they've been in the company for two, three months, then I will forbid them from asking me a no-oriented question. We're on a Zoom call with some people in a company probably about three weeks ago.

One of our logistics people asked me a no-winter question. And I go, I'd change that to a label. To a what? A label, which is a label is a sentence that starts with, it seems like. Okay. It's a form of contemplation.

It's reflection. It's thinking. It begins to create critical thinking. And she says, would it be a ridiculous idea for you to do X? And I said, okay, now make that a label. And she wasn't good at labeling yet. And I said, start with, it seems like. And I make her say the words.

And she goes, it's. seems like it wouldn't be ridiculous for you to send that email and the act of making her say that made her think about it she says wait a minute no she says no i think it's probably easier if i'd do it and then the fact that another person on our logistics team was also on a zoom call it triggered her thinking and she contributed a suggestion and between the two of them they thought it through very quickly which then they realized they needed to take it off my plate

they needed to execute themselves and how they needed to do it so with the act of labeling triggers thinking it triggers listening and it triggers reflection

which is what you want everybody in your company to do which is why then I move everybody in the company I'm like no more no oriented questions because I need you thinking more. So then ultimately they get into a combination of the two. And that's the power.

Now you're executing. Now you're thinking things through and you're triggering decisions. Okay. And those are two different parts of the brain, but they're kind of complementary, but you've got to learn one and then you've got to learn the other. All right, listeners, take that to the bank. I just have a couple more for you, Chris,

because this one really resonates with me. say, do not back people into a corner. They'll disagree when they don't even want to disagree. If I'm being self-reflective, this is my biggest issue and I want your opinion on it. Here's why. If I feel that I'm misunderstood, what I typically do is I over-explain. And I put the PowerPoint up. Well, well, this is why. And this is why. And don't you see this perspective and this and this. And then I use the F word, which you always say, don't use fair. Wouldn't it be fair? So this is where I mess up. I over-explain when I'm misunderstood, that put them back into a wall when people are put back at the wall you say they'll say no even when they

want to possibly say yes right right what are some tips that i could use or anybody else at home could use when they're doing this well yeah i mean and so your description of that is is is a beautiful illustration dynamic because you misunderstood means they're not listening to you and you will not even have gone there if they've actually listened i mean actually listening talking to an extremely successful business person, Salt Lake City area, a couple of months ago. Randy Garn, great guy, hosted a screening of a documentary around my company. And Randy's at the point where he's got a lot more people doing deals on his behalf. And he says he and some of his business colleagues are watching their representatives do deals. And he says, we're watching

these deals fall apart over miscommunication when the deal should be made. And most people, when you say miscommunication, will say, oh, people are not articulating themselves properly. They're not being clear. That's what I feel. That's the big mistake. I said, is it miscommunication or a lack of listening? He says, yeah, it's a lack of listening. So the onus is not for you to state it more clearly.

The problem in that communication was the other side wasn't listening to you. And they weren't confirming what they heard. And since they weren't confirming what they heard, your gut instinct is picking up the fact that they are not listening. Yeah. And you're finding that highly frustrating. Yes. And it's diminishing your desire to make the deal. Yes.

Because you're not being listened to. So the problem there wasn't your lack of communication. The problem was good, God knows what they were thinking about where you were talking, because they weren't paying attention to you. So what do I do to get them to listen? You hear them out first. Okay. You know, it's kind of who goes first?

Let me hear you out first. Because then the tremendous frustration that you were just describing, you got the complete opposite effect having felt heard. It actually, there's a neuroscience again, if you feel heard, here's what's going to happen. You feel heard, you feel bonded to me. You're honest, more honest with me. Yes. And some or all of your needs have been satisfied. You want less.

so what happens when you hear somebody out they're more honest with you they bond with you and are and are less greedy they want less what more do you want from a negotiation you want the other side to bond to you be honest with you and to want less and so the act it's so counterintuitive and so powerful the act of hearing somebody out if i hear you out and you feel hurt out if the deal doesn't make itself on the spot, it moves so much closer to me that it's an easy thing to make if it was ever there. Got it. There's that 7% caveat. That's a 7%. But if we're in the 93%, I don't want to work any harder and I have to. And I don't want to concede anything I don't have to concede or trade off anything I don't have to trade off. So if I can make the deal by hearing you out, I'm going to

hear you out. Brilliant advice. The last one I got for you before you're trading secret, especially with the audience, 21 to 45-year-old females, 85% base. Nice. A lot of feedback I get. This goes to relationships and business or interviews. I get ghosted. I don't hear anything back. I don't know how to ask for things I continue to give.

In those scenarios, what tips do you have for the money mafia? Those are the listeners. That'll be the last, because I could sit here for another 24 hours and ask more tips. I know we can't do that. So this will be the last one I get from a negotiation. perspective. What can they do? What can we do? Okay, well, I mean, it's kind of some people who ghost you on purpose because you start conceding. You know, the cuts words do that. Most of the time, actually, ghosting is talking to you is doing no good. And if it's doing no good, it's doing no good

for one or two reasons. You're not listening or they've lost power and influence. And it's usually a combination of the two. But them losing power and influence on their side of the table is usually the biggest one. If you're not listening to them, why should they talk to you? People communicate as long as it's productive. People will never stop communicating if the communication is productive.

What stops it from being productive? You're not listening, or they can't do anything on their side. So if you're being ghosted, it might be one of seven percent through no fault of your own. They can no longer make the deal. So there's no point conceding.

because they can't make the deal. Some real estate agents will do this. They'll continue to cut their fees to the other side. It's like, look, they're going to do this for me for free, which is a really stupid move. By the way, real estate agents have never cut their fee. That's the reason why we put the book out the full fee agent.

Real estate agents had full fee or a bargain. The best ones we've had on, the Jason Oppenheims, the biggest out there that have come on this show, every single one of them say, I won't negotiate my fees, every one of them. If you can't stand up for yourself, how could you stand up for your client? Yeah. It's just silly.

But if they're ghosting you, how to diagnose the ghosting. Send a one line text, one line email, one line, one line only. Nothing more than this. Have you given up on X and name whatever it is? You're going to get an answer within three to five minutes of seeing the message. Don't put anything else in. I was counseling a close friend one time I said send a text I'd be given up on

and this person said to me I sent that I got no answer really show me the text person showed me the text and the text was hey Bob how are you today I hope you're doing fine hey have you given up on if not please reach out for me and I said no no no no no no

And the person said, well, you didn't tell me I couldn't put the other stuff in. I'm like, when I said one line only, because you just obscured the whole darn thing. One line, one line only. That seems abrupt to you, not to them. It's not about you. It's how it lands with them. They're saying no. No makes people feel safe and protected.

Don't smoke screen it with all this other extra stuff. Have you given up on? They're going to get back to you. three to five minutes. Not kidding. This is got the highest success rate across the board. Now, if they don't get back to you at all,

the answer is yes. Ah. So no matter what you'll get your answer. An absence of a response is a yes. People hate to say yes. Silence to that is a yes. Move on. If they get back to you, now there's a further diagnosis.

This person I was talking to Been ghosted for Three and a half weeks Since the previous Obscured have you given up on Sent that out person gets right back With a reason Now the reason was

Tragedy Personal problems, tragedy I'm like Okay so this is either a lie or it's true. So if you express empathy for the tragedy, and it's true, you're going to get an immediate response. Okay.

If you express empathy for the tragedy, not sympathy, but empathy. So the response is that's got to be really difficult. You're really going through a difficult time. Send that. If they're lying, they won't respond. if they're telling you the truth, they will appreciate your recognition for the difficulty and will respond immediately.

No response to the second text. So I'm like, all right, so now you know what you got. You got somebody who's being deceptive, who's lying to you, a lack of a response to actual empathy, not sympathy, there's a big difference, is the diagnosis. Now it's time to move on

because they're not going to make the deal. There's an extreme red flag, right? Right. Lack of response to empathy is a pretty crazy. To actual empathy. Lack of response to it is that the emotional situation that they're portraying is a falsehood. Ladies and gentlemen listening, that last five minutes will change your life. Go write that down.

It will change your dating life, your professional life, you're negotiating life, everything. Chris, this has been unbelievable. One of the world's most powerful negotiators is right here, right now, just drop in bombs with us. We so appreciate having you on, but we can't let you leave without a trading secret. You've given us a lot of secrets. You've given us a lot of trading secrets, but we need one more. Chris Voss trading secret. Can't find a textbook.

Can't learn from a professor, even though you are a professor. One trading secret with Chris Voss, what can you leave us with? Wow. You know, just practicing this thing that I referred to as labels. Seems like sounds like look like. Make a genuine observation. the more you do it, the more emotional insight you're going to have. Emotional intelligence is like unlimited.

There's like no limit to the novelty and interesting insights that you can gain once you start to practice it. It's kind of an unlimited skill. And you start getting good and reading people's emotions and then expressing your read, and you're going to get to the point where people are going to say I'm telling you stuff that I haven't told anybody 20 years those are cool conversations to have labels it seems like it sounds like it looks like Chris thank you so much for being on trading secrets

guys that is one of the most powerful negotiators that has ever touched the planet Chris Voss thank you for being with us my pleasure thanks for I mean Where can everyone find you and everything you have going on, Chris? Yeah, Black SwanltD.com, B-L-A-C-S-W-A-N-L-T-D.com. Our website, we got a lot of free tools there. The best free tool is really to subscribe to our newsletter, which comes out on Tuesday mornings, wherever you are in the world,

whether you're in Baghdad or Bogota or Brooklyn. You get the email at 7.30 in the morning. you give us your email address concise actionable 700 word article you can digest that baby on a Tuesday morning plus the newsletter is a gateway to everything

new products the website new ideas new concepts new stuff that we have going on and it's free and you're going to get a long way taking the free stuff that we give you build a great foundation and we got advanced training when you're ready for it.

If you don't build a foundation off the free stuff, you're not going to be ready for the advanced stuff. I like that. And Chris also has two books. One, never split the difference in negotiation, as if your life depended on it. And another one that you just co-wrote in 2023, the full fee agent.

You referred to it in this podcast. How to stack the odds in your favor is a real estate professional. And if you need more, Chris, go follow him on social media. And his master class, Chris, thank you for being on trick. secrets. My pleasure. Ding, ding, ding! We are closing the bell to the Chris Voss episode. I have the one and only, the curious Canadian with me. And you know what? Before we even get in Chris Voss, before we get into negotiation, David, this was your first Father's Day. Congratulations. How are it feel to be a Father on Father's Day? Give me the whole breakdown of Father's Day before we get into the weeds on

the negotiation stuff. Pretty surreal. You know, I'm six weeks into this thing. So getting after it early on the old Father's Day front, but, you know, made Ashley come golfing with me. That was the plan. So I've been waiting five years to have an excuse to make her do that, and Father's Day is the first excuse that I was able to have to do it. So we did that. It was great, spending time with Carter, but I could get used to the whole Father's Day thing for sure. Yeah, a whole day just for you, and you know what? Maybe this is the start of something new. Carter becomes a professional golfer. Ashley gets into the golfing game. You guys have the best state nights golfing. This could change the game for you, David.

Let's talk about changing the game. Chris Voss, the guy's Electric, his stories from Waco to, you know, the 9-11 bombings to everything in between of what it takes to be an FBI agent and then the things that he has learned in these crazy crisis negotiations that we can use in our day-to-day lives with our partners, with our bosses, our colleagues, and interviews. So I think what I want to do in this recap is there's so much to hold on to from this interview. I want to go into top takeaways, your top takeaways, my top takeaways. I think we go one for one back and forth and just put out there to everyone that stay tuned

to this recap, everything that we are going to implement to our lives. What do you think? I mean, I love it because in my notes here, I was actually going to publish this as a book because I had so many takeaways. I was like, I'm just going to take these takeaways, put them in a book, publish it. We're all going to be making money here. So I'm all good for that. Before we get into it, I got to say you started the episode saying in the recap, I'm going

tell you about how his team used a negotiation tactic to get you booked. So tell us that story and maybe that's a takeaway you can take. We'll start from there. Yes. So my first takeaway is actually the power of no. Just the whole idea that as humans, it is so challenging for us to say yes now because of the way this system's worked against us. The people knocking on our door, the people cold calling, the people always wanting something. We have been taught to not say yes. So what actually happened is when we first tried to get Chris on, we had to fill out, David, a 10-page packet of everything about us. We then had to show the questions we'd be interviewing about. We then had to go through a booking process. It took over a year and we still couldn't get a commitment. Weirdly enough,

once we started gotten bigger, bigger, they actually reached back out to us to book. And Evan missed the email from them. And they responded saying, have you given up on me? Have you given up on us. And the answer was immediately no. Evan said when he saw that message, he had this rush of like chemicals and emotions in his body. Like he let them down. He can't believe you let the email. He dropped everything, made it a priority. And I think that is a question if you're being ghosted, if you're stuck in a sales process, if you're interviewing and wondering what's next, have you given up on me? And what did he say there, David? If you don't get an answer because it's tough for people to say yes, you've got your answer.

Ask questions. So the answer will be no, and you'll be very surprised at the information you seek. The takeaway I'm given, right now, David, you want to go to sushi tonight? You want to ask Ashley, do you want to go to sushi tonight? The likelihood of her saying yes goes down. You rephrase it. Ash, are you against getting sushi tonight? The likelihood of her saying no goes up, and the likelihood you're eating sushi is there.

That's my takeaway one. I'm using that. I know Father's Day was an easy one, but I'm using that. Now I got to ask, was it worth it? All the paperwork, all the questions, all the pre-up, was it worth it, getting them on? I mean, for me it was, you guys tell us in the reviews. Go give us five stars. Let us know if you think it was worth it.

For me, it was because there are lessons from this episode, I'll use the rest of my life, without a doubt. I love it. One thing, one takeaway that I had that I think can be related is he said, making sure that how you interview matches what you put on paper. So he used the example of people get so worried about what they put on. on a resume and then they get in the interview and the personalities don't match and it confuses people and it and you and it's not engaging and I think this is just for resumes but think about our everyday life think about our dating app think about ways that we curate things to put on

writing for people to see and we get so worried about what people think they want to see or they want to hear or they want to read about us but then you go we've all been on a date this person is nothing like I thought their their energy doesn't match what I read. Those types of things, I think, finding a way when you're putting who you are on a paper to then be able to match it in person, I'll use an example of my personal life when I was going through my work visa process. The border agent would always say, the government improves the paper, we approve the people.

Think about it that way. If they don't match, it's going to get crossed off along the way somewhere. I like that. And not matching also aligns to a big piece of advice that he gave about taking advice from others we'll get into that my second one is going to be labels it really resonated with me when i said when i'm in a conversation and i'm over explaining i feel like i do it often in many times what does that mean well it means you're not being heard and if you feel as though you're backed into a corner in conversation with anyone take a beat and use labels what are labels labels are it sounds like

It seems like, it looks like, and the whole purpose of this is that they are now hearing that you have heard them. And when you ask someone, well, it sounds like this, or it seems like this, or it looks like this, you are eventually or inevitably, you're taking out all the emotion in the conversation and you're asking the person that you're talking to. to use critical thinking. When you use a label, what you're doing is you're making the other person think, hear you, and explain with practicality as opposed to emotion. And that's one, again, I will use the rest of my life, labels, labels. You sure will, because when I was watching the interview back, I think that one struck a chord.

And I think you just leaned into that one. You were like, all right, I thought you were going to whip out a notepad right there during the interview process for him. I think I did, David. Yeah, I think you did. And mental note. I could see it in the camera, but I was fucking ripping notes the whole time.

You're right. That's awesome. No, I'm going to, I got to quickly touch on the one you said about the advice. He said, never take advice from someone who you wouldn't want to either switch places with or has been where you're trying to go.

I think just that the essence of that is so relatable, such a good takeaway. But then I want to also bring up the point under it that he said, He says, take the advice, because if you don't, those people who gave you the advice, they'll notice. So this is the whole, like, take the lesson and then put into action. And if you don't, you're doing double damage. Now you've made someone who you should be looking up to take time to give you the advice,

but you're almost slapping them in the face if you then don't take the advice. So a really, really good indicator of who to take the advice from. And then plan of action, do it. It's going to say you offer success because you're going to really impress those people that are, worthy of giving the advice. And you think about David, in a world we live in with so much hate and so much bullshit and so many people trying to bring each other down because they're envious of what you have. I think I'll always go back to this question when it comes to the noise. Are these people that have been where I've been and these people that have done what I've done?

And if they're not, I'm out. I'm not going to take that stuff to heart. That's a good one. It's another one, David. Why, when you say to me, was this? episode worth it. It was because these are things. As long as I'm living, I'll remember. And another one I'll always remember is you are 31% smarter in a positive frame of mind. And he talked a lot about this idea of mirroring conversation. And here's the thing. I love when he calls out like old school bullshit manipulating stuff. An old school bullshit manipulating thing is mirroring body language. So David, you cross your arms. I call it. cross my arms, David, you put your, you know, your hand on your chin. I put my hand on your chin.

I love when he says, watch out for people like that because those are, those are manipulation tactics. This idea of mirroring in conversation is a little bit different. And when he talks with the whole positive mind frame, what he was saying is that there are mirror neurons that are responsible for reciprocation gestures. So even if you're smiling, even if you're nodding, the individual will very, very likely smile back. It's a reflex. It can't, it can't, it can be replicated with words, too. Now, how could it be replicated with words? And I used it actually in this interview.

But there might be a question, like, David, you're telling me a story. You're saying yesterday was a mess. It was just a mess for me. But that's all you gave me. I would then respond by saying, a mess. And then it gives you the ability to know I'm listening and allow you to continue telling me. So go in with a positive mind frame. when you're smiling and you're putting positivity out there, you're smarter and you'll have more

success. And when you think about mirroring in conversation, just repeat those last two to three words that are said to you to get the individual that you're talking to to talk more. Yeah, I mean, that whole neuron stuff with the smiling almost broke my brain when I was listening to it because I was like thinking that I was already reacting and smiling just by hearing him talk about it, let alone the actual visual of someone smiling. You're kind of taking. and a little bit of tips on his tone thing and the nice little slow down delivery a little bit. Well, don't steal my next one.

Tone is one of them, unless was that one of yours? No, I'm going to fire off quickly. You said 31% smarter in his positive state of mind. This is where I was gleaming. I was the best version of myself listening to this because he said that because he said when you are curious, Jason, you cannot be angry and curious at the same time. That's when he alluded to the 31.

percent. Here I am the curious Canadian. Two plus years of doing this. A nickname that you gave me. You came up with Jason because that is a personality trait. But he said, and I just got to quote this, feeling good about myself, feeling myself right now. He says, be curious and attentive. Body language will take care of yourself. He said, curiosity is the hack. It's an anti-fragile characteristic. Curiosity is a superpower. He said, I'm fired up. David, it justifies your whole brand. It justifies everything we're doing here. And the quote, I'll never forget that I don't want you to ever forget to anyone out there.

You can't be angry and curious at the same time. And you think about the positivity that comes from being a curious person and the negativity that can come from anger. You can't be angry and curious at the same time. That's a good one. I think you mentioned that I was going to have to write a book and the title of book was going to be. something like something about curious i don't know you said it when we were talking on the sidelines about

it oh yeah that was going to hit me in the face we'll think about it if you guys have good titles for curious for david's book you guys give us five stars in the recap we did talk about it i'm only one coffee deep right now so once i get too well i'll remember but that reminds me about when he says it's how you say it and tone matters i loved when he was chirping all the people that are big on their words, right? They have to use these long-winded, eloquent words. And he's like, words don't mean shit. It's delivery that means everything. And just with the tone, this is one thing I've tried. When emotions are high in a conversation or people are getting upset, the idea behind just slowing the conversation down is really game-changing.

And so for tone in delivery, those are things I'll definitely use moving forward, David. You know how I know that works. I'm like three coffees deep and I was rocking in my chair the whole time. And then when you started that, I actually stopped rocking. See, it's crazy. And then if you do that and Voss does his, then you're going to have to listen to the next podcast of you two and two and a half X speed because that was just. Yeah. And it's just even small things.

Like when he said, you know, if you use downward inflection in a stern statement, it will just signal that you won't budge, right? So like, you're asking me for something, David. I'm just like, David, it's not possible. It's just not possible. You now are picking up so much for my tone and delivery. Downward inflection, upward inflection, tone, that's one for me. David, what else you got?

I'm ending with this. The deal killer and the decision maker. I thought that whole topic that he talked about was interesting where we're going to talk about takeaways for our sake. Everyone's so worried about the decision maker, right? You're going for a job. You are trying to date this person. You are trying to, you know, network with this person.

There's always five people attached to that person that are always going to be the deal killer if it doesn't happen because along the way you didn't value them. So if you're trying to get a job and you're going for the boss, you better not forget his assistant. you better not forget the front office people or the first point of contact who might be a recruiter. If you're trying to date someone or take someone on a date, you better be friendly to their friends. You better be friendly to their families.

If you're trying to network with a big boss of a corporation, they always have a right-hand man, a set of the team. Make sure that someone in their team isn't being a deal killer, even though they're not the decision maker. That's a takeaway. And because I know I don't have the mic very much longer, I got to end with this. The Oprah rule. the most important part is the last impression. The last impression is the lasting impression in a limo, out in a taxi. Let's get in a limo out in a limo.

Take Oprah, the queen for her word. The last impression, Jason, is the lasting impression. And David, in the media and entertainment world, I can't tell you how many times we are taken in a fancy car and kicked out the door in a taxi. For me, that's someone that's always focused on first impressions. That's another one I'll never forget, especially even when he says like he'll have and Oprah did super candid very very tough conversations

but always wrap it up with true honesty but like just love like I can't tell you how much I love you how much you mean to me that is one I'll take forever and it also when you deliver that it has to do with the tone which was another takeaway and one of the quotes I forgot to mention David tone has five times the impact of words that is something that Chris lives by Here is the last one, and this is one I'm implementing immediately. I'm always, David, curious like you sometimes, especially when I'm misunderstood in business or personal situations. And what do I do?

I ask why. Why is how, like, if I can't understand it all the way you're putting something together, I need to know, because if I know, I then can adjust things. But the whole idea about why, why creates these triggers, defensive trick, And what we learn from Chris is when you put someone in defensive position, even if they agree with you, they are more reluctant to disagree with you. So that is why Chris suggests you take why completely out of your vocabulary. And what you do is you implement the how because how is an open-ended question. It encourages discussion.

It encourages me listening to you. It encourages collaboration. So instead of why would I do that, try how am I supposed to? to do that you think about the difference why would i do that david david how am i supposed to do that it's unbelievable it's everything that against sometimes what we were taught first impression most important no last impression uh what's the why no what's the how got to mimic the body language no you don't like there's just so many things this is again i say it too much but it is who we are the essence of trading secrets bring guests on from a bunch of backgrounds

have some takeaways be a better person be a more successful person and uh keep tuning in because these are electric electric electric guests that we're getting and we'll end with one more quote that i want you to never forget because it will always live in me if you don't know who the fool in the game is it's probably you we'll end on that note david happy father's day all of our listeners please go give us five stars let us know who else you want to see. Give us feedback. We are reading all of it. David, do you think we should do a little giveaway here? Give someone who's given us a review, something from the influencer closet. What do you think? If you think that I'm ever going to turn down a giveaway opportunity for the money

mafia, you don't have the right curious Canadian. I mean, I'm, as you know, I'm an impulsive mindset. Giveaways make me happy. Daniel J21, just shoot us an email, trading secrets at jasontarduk.com with your address. We are going to send you a gift from the influencer closet found jason through the bachelor franchise one of my favorite it's neat to see it's so neat to see his journey providing his expertise and insight to the money mafia it's for anyone who wants to learn about money in business he makes it an informing accessible always has great guests on love the barbara corkron episode jason is a great host and isn't afraid to ask all the money mafia questions so daniel jay just keep uh keep send us your address we'll get it in another one

from sierra ellis send us your address we'll send you something from the Influencer Closet, Welp is a religious trading secrets listener, and Geneseo, New York Native. I am inclined to leave a glowing review. I have learned so much from Jason and David. In these podcasts, I look forward to every Monday to hear who they have on next. And what amazing takeaways I can use to inspire my week. Thank you for being a bright light, in an interesting world right now.

You guys rock Sierra Ellis. Sierra, please make sure to give us your address. We're going to send you something for the influencer closet. And we hope this episode of Chris Foss, one, we've been trying to secure for over a year. was one that you couldn't afford to miss.