Trash Taste Podcast - Sitting Down with a Japanese Anime Producer | Trash Taste #152

Episode Date: May 19, 2023

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All everyone, welcome back to another episode of the Trash Taste Podcast. I'm your host for today, Joey, and as always, I am with The Boys and rejoice anime fans because this is an anime episode because of the gentleman sitting next to me, introduce yourself. Hi, I'm Yoshihiro Watanabe. I'm one of the producer for Trigand Stampy.

Hell yeah, it's so hype. It's been a while since we had like an anime industry kind of guest on. Oh, really? Yeah, I think the last one was like Kevin Penkin, right? Yeah. He's amazing. Yeah, so we've had an animator on, we've had a composer on, and now we have like an anime producer on as well.

I hope I'm not missing anyone. Have I missed any other industries? No, I think that's about it, yeah. Voice actor. Oh, voice actor, yeah. We're like Thanos collecting. Yeah, collecting all the industry people in it. The reason why you might be wondering,

Trashakes, why did it take so long for you guys to finally get a producer on the show? Well, it's because a lot of them don't speak English. Yes, yes. It's kind of an English show. But luckily Watanoi, you were, were you born in LA? Or you just raised in LA? I was born in Tokyo, but I grew up in LA.

Okay, okay, okay. And you know, you mentioned that you produced the new Chygun, anime, Trigon Stampy, but you've done a lot more than that. You're also the producer for B-Stars, right? Yes. So high-go- So how many shows have you worked on? Just like, lay out your resume. Like, spit, yeah, I'm listed.

List it down, listen down. I'm genuinely curious. I mean, as a producer, well, I book for a studio, Orange. Orange, it's a CG-based company. But from there, it's my producer career started sort of. Right, right. So, B-Stars, I worked on the Godzilla-Single Point. Oh, okay, okay.

Tragone Stampede. I worked on some shorts. Before Orange, I worked on some League of Legend commercials. Oh, really? Yeah, let's go. Connor's like, now you're talking. Yeah. With like the really, like, intense 3D animated ones?

Yeah. Oh, there's one that really great, the hand-drawn animated ones. Oh, okay. Okay. Those were so sick and they just stopped doing them. Yeah, before Arcane, that was like one of the best parts of legal legends, I think. It was really fun working on it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, so how long have you been in the industry? Industry, that's been 2006 when I graduated from college, I ever since then, yeah. Oh, damn. So I actually started from like US studio of US branch of Madhouse. Okay, okay.

They're working with Hollywood to adapt into live action at the time. I didn't even know there was a US branch in bad house. Yeah, I'm learning that now as well. Oh, wow. So I, okay, so like, I've always been curious, right? You know, even as someone who, you know, talks about a lot of anime, I've never truly understood what exactly the role of an anime producer is.

So especially for our audience, do you wanna explain what an anime producer does? Okay, so it gets really extensive, so I'm gonna make it simple. It's, anime producer is, if you don't have anyone, you're the only one to do everything. Yeah, that's kinda, that's kind of, It's kind of what I figured because it was like that,

it would like, you know, the producer is the kind of the guy who just ends up having to do, fill in all the gaps, right? Yeah, the director obviously has his role and the actors of theirs and produces like kind of everything in between, you gotta fall under doing. Okay. So if I don't have a production assistant, I'm the one who's clean after everyone else's food trash and stuff. Oh, okay, wow, okay.

So, but yeah, my part of the job is finding the budget to hire people to do that, so. Right, basically a green team, yeah. Finding the budget? Yes. What is that? What is that? That sounds like ominous.

I'm finding the budget. I'm finding the budget. Yeah. I mean, every two people to work. Right, right, right, right. So like you work with, you know, Studio Orange right now, which, you know, I will say, I think it's like the premiere studio for 3D,

like 3D animation. I mean, you, Studio Orange has made shows like, you know, B stars, Trigone, Hosecunukuni as well, I believe, as well. And I feel like Studio Orange is, is leading the charge to like make sure that 3D animation gets a good rep, especially from anime. Definitely.

How much exposure do you get from the fan base in terms of their preconceptions with 3D anime? I know, I mean, it's a very great honor that a lot of fans consider us that. Yeah. From our perspective, we actually feel a little bit more different. We're just using it as a tool. Right. to because all our CEO's animator right and he wants to just fully express

whatever he wants to so he's just we're just using that as a tool okay okay so there wasn't was there ever like a conscious choice of like this is why we're using 3d or was it just kind of like it just kind of made sense so to be um as a studio was found about one animator yeah he was working for a jump among our artists as assistant that then he found Pixar he found toy story and he's really Got this, what do you call, clarity that it's CG animation from now. Right, right. Oh, that's interesting because I know like a lot of, well, a lot of Japanese anime in the animation industry

is based around 2D anime. So I think it's cool that, you know, there's a lot, there's been a lot of experimentation done with 3D animation in the past industry. And I feel like Studio Orange just ends up doing things a little bit differently. Yeah, you guys kind of just like figure it out, I guess, is like the best way to put it. Like, because, you know, there's been like,

even if you go back to like early 2000s, right, there were not full 3D anime, but, you know, definitely like a lot of 3D artists working on like backgrounds or like, you know, action sequences and stuff like that. But there were so many shows, in my opinion, where it's just, it was very obvious. Yeah.

That there was, this is 3D and then everything else is in 2D, right? But there's something about the Worker Studio Orange where it almost blow, that line to the point where sometimes I'm watching it and I almost forget that it's actually 3D. Yeah, if that makes sense. So it's like, do you think there's like some kind of a... What's your secret?

Yeah, what's the secret? That's what we're doing. Like what makes Studio Orange just like stand out so much in the field of 3D animation. Actually to any business partner, what I explain is that we're actually the hentai of anime industry. So, hentai.

I need you to elaborate. Wait, wait, wait, wait. So hentai as in sense of Japanese term hentai. So not the adult hentai anime. Like the weirdos, right, yeah. Okay. So we're the psychopath, we're the maniacs. Yeah.

Right. So like what, okay, that's, there's so much I want to ask, but in terms of like, can you like elaborate on that? What do you do differently in terms of like everyone else right now in the industry in your minds that makes studio orange work stand out? I mean, nowadays, there's so many actually CDs to do that's actually starting to rise.

Right. I mean, Dragon Ball super amazing. Yeah. Slam dunk, that's a blow my mind. Yeah, yeah. I haven't seen that. Have you seen that? Yeah.

I saw bits and pieces of it, but I haven't actually seen the full movie. It looks, yeah, I've only heard amazing things about it. Okay. Because yeah, every time I see like 3D, like anime, I'm not gonna lie, part of my brain is like, oh no. Bro, I had that exact same reaction when I saw that.

that B-Stars was getting an anime, right? Because like compared to the manga, which is like, It'saaki-Patish style is very sketchy and like very rough, like clearly, just like, you know, rough around the edges, but in the best way possible. And then when I heard that, oh, B-Stars is getting anime, and as a manga fan, I was like,

this is great, I fucking love B-stars. And then the moment I saw the trailer, I was like, there was a part of me that was like, oh no, it's in 3D. But then when I saw the studio Orange name, I was like, okay. Yeah. You know what?

There's a chance that'll be good. And thankfully, fucking amazing. Thank you. Yeah. Absolutely incredible. I think it is really focused on what is the essence of that. Right. So B-Stars, the drawing is really fantastic.

But to recreate that in the C-G, it's possible. But C-G, there's a lot of tools that you need. So it's going to cost a lot of money to recreate that. Yeah. So what is the essence? What can we pick out to the essence and whatever that's possible within our realm right now to adapt it? I think that's what we're really great at.

I'm curious, do you think, in your opinion, is 3D animation harder than 2D animation, or is it just that they have different strengths rather than one being harder than the other? They definitely have different strength. Hand-drawn, I mean, if you have a pencil and paper, you just start with whatever skill you have in imagination. 3D, you have to have a tool.

So it's all based on formulas and numbers and stuff. Right. Because I feel like a lot of the best of the best of the best of, preconception, especially with a lot of, you know, people who watch anime is that, you know, we've seen, I guess, the evolution of the use of 3D in anime, and a lot of the times, they always felt like 3D was used. Maybe it's as like a tool that meant, you know, you had to put less work in, uh, rather than cost, yeah, to cut costs and to cut production time and stuff like that. But I think one thing that really sets to your orange apart is that instead of using it as

like, kind of like a cost cutting technique, you kind of like use the tool to its, fullest potential, which we see with a lot of your work. And I was wondering, did that philosophy like come right at the get-go? Or was it just, you know, your CEO being like, I want to do 3D. This is the way forward. I mean, it's started out with that I want to do 3D. So his professional work, I don't know a lot of people

who watches this, but there's a show called Zoids. Oh, I remember about. Bang a show. Oh my God. Bang a show. Yeah. I've never seen Zoids. It's awesome.

It's one of the first commercial. So basically, It's reboot of Japan. Japanese anime. You know the reboot show? No, it was on British TV at a point, like ITV. Oh, with that one? Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. No, no, no. I mean, in US cartoon, we had reboot as a distance. In Japan, Zoids was equivalent to a reboot. Oh, okay. Yeah. So what, like, I'm curious,

what is your opinion of the evolution of, like, the use of 3D in anime from, like, the past, like, decade or so? because we see it quite a lot more often now. Evolution. That's a hard question. I think really what Japan needed was the budget time to really grow.

I mean, Hollywood had twice, not twice, I mean, digits different budget and time to invest on. And everything was English, so CG software was all primarily English. Right, right. Oh, yeah. Japan needed to adapt to that.

So we started, off later than the- You gotta learn the English first before you can even start modeling, right? Yeah, I mean, our CEO bought this 30K software back then. Right, and the manual was all English, so he's like doing dictionary and stuff. Oh shit.

Oh my God. Okay, yeah, that'll take a while. Yeah, because I remember like growing back, going back to like growing up in anime in like the mid-2000s. I remember like, was it like Studio Gonzo or something that used a lot of 3D? Also Go-Hands as well. Oh, go hands as well.

Gonso did like Gantz. They did Gantzuo as well. And they had like the 3D back then was, let's say, very different from what it like, what it looks like now. And just seeing the progression of 3D, people were still always complain about 3D, but I feel like now is getting to the point where it's becoming a lot less noticeable.

Yeah, which I think is the big thing. Would you say a lot of that is just the industry kind of like, kind of like learning the software properly and seeing how it's like, knowing how to use it properly. Yeah, I think overall and throughout the entire industry, it's starting to reach that point, the breaking point,

right, everything is starting to evolve. Right. What do you think is like the secret, like to making something that, to integrating 3D into anime? Because I feel like Studio Orange do it the best. Yeah, like again, it was that, like, as I was saying with B-Stars,

it's like, it's almost, it's, you know, 3D, but there's a feeling and I don't know if it's like the movement or the coloring, the shading, whatever it might be that just makes it, it makes you forget it's 3D. And I think that's the best 3D in anime where it's like it doesn't, there isn't this like weird thought in the back of your head of I'm watching a 3D anime. Yeah. I'm just watching a good anime, right? 60 fbs, isn't it? 60 fs anime. Who would have thought? I better get it bro, Yeah, right.

I'm curious, how did you, because you mentioned the madhouse thing, but how did you even get started in, in, oh, yeah, getting to, yeah. Like, because I, you know, we're coming out of here talking about 3D, but I don't even, like, know anything about, I guess, your background or how. Yeah, how do you get started in the anime industry to the point where you can rise to a produce a little? Actually, I started in the weird position, so I was just fooling around in LA and I actually volunteered for an ex plus interpreter. Oh, wow. Seriously. Okay. I met the producer, Mario,

I'm the founder of Matt House then. And he's like, I was actually supposed to, after college, go to Sega. Yeah. But he's like, we're starting a studio here. You should join us. I'm like, wait, wait, how did that? Yeah.

Wait, hold on. I feel like, I feel like you're glossing over still, a lot of, no, no one just like, hey man. Yeah, we, we, we get people, we get people at conventions being like, yeah, I really wanna work for trash taste. We're not just gonna be like, well, come on in.

Like, you know, it's not that easy. Right? So it's like, or was it that easy? No, no, I mean, he, he, Mariyama has a really keen eye on like looking at people. Right. Like he, he grew up his entire career after, his go samu. And that level mastery creates a lot of crazy people. And they really, really have keen eye. Yeah. How long did you live in L.A.?

I mean, I grew up in L.A., so from six to, yeah, after college. Oh, down. Oh, wow. Okay. So he's like, hey, come. work for me, move to Tokyo, and you're just like, all right. Well, it was actually the first come to the LA office. Oh, right, of course.

So I started working at the LA office. A month later, he calls me up, you should move to Tokyo. I'm like, okay, that sounds really exciting. When do I do this? Next week, I'm like, no. He gave you one week? Oh my God. Why was there like a project that desperately needed?

No, no, no, no. He's just like, I'm just going to fuck with this kid right now. He won't do it. He's testing a determination. The real ones will do it. This only happens in Japan. This is like a Japanese mindset of like, we have to test the determination.

Yeah, test their willingness. He's like Yoda about anime in the shoes. Oh, if you're a Chirovako, Minamara Masato, he's basically Marramaasa. Oh, okay. Oh, that's cool. He founded a studio Mapa as well. Well, Mapa seems to just do everything now.

Yeah, yeah. Mapa seems to be getting, Getting every LIP under the sun. Okay, well, damn, that's, okay, that's pretty good. So what job were you doing at Madhouse? So I started out as a system producer for the live action part of the process. Right, right.

So then there was a project that we're working with Japan. The Wachowski's were actually producers at the time. Matrix? Yeah. Wow. So they were doing, wanted a show with Methouse. So that's what I heard about this. Oh, damn, okay.

I didn't know this. We're not talking about animatrix, right? No, no. There's something else here. After that, yeah. Oh, okay. There's a comic they do, they produce called Shaolin Cowboy. Okay.

And by Jeff Darrow and they want to adapt that into anime. Oh, wow. Then I flew over to Japan. Did I ever get released? No. Yeah. I was like, I feel like I would have heard about this. That would have been amazing.

Yeah. I'm curious then, like, how many, how many projects end up getting canceled then? Because that's obviously like one. What's the ratio to? Yeah. I mean, there wasn't, in the anime industry, there's not too many projects that can get canceled while after it launches. Right, okay, okay.

But, yeah, mine was a rare case. Right, right, right. It was an international production, Hollywood's involved, and a lot of what you're called, the bank wasn't uneasy at the time. Right, right, right. I'm curious, so you said you just turned up in Japan.

Did he tell you what you were going to do a week later in Japan, or was it just like, we'll figure it out? So you just turned up? So he wanted me to be the line, producer for this show. I'm like, how am I going to be a line producer without any kind of experience? What is the line producer of curiosity? So line producer is you manage entire production under a producer to make everything work.

So basically you're the producer. Yeah. Jesus Christ. So the producer tells you what to do and then you guys, you do it. Man, this other guy sounds he's got the way better shows. Yeah. And then, I mean, he says that, but it's not that what he means it. I saw every industry guess we've had on this are like the weirdest journey.

I'm talking about it so nonchalantly as well. That's why I'm confused. So as you get here and he's like, be a line producer, are you like, sure or is it kind of like, oh, I mean, okay. No, no, man, I have no fucking clue how am I. But you still said yes? Yeah, yes.

I mean, I'm giving you a chance. You have to say yes, obviously I know that, but you're like, all right, oh, okay. And then I guess I assume that they must have been happy with your work because they, kept giving you work? No, so actually Oh, God.

My career at Math House was a wreck because I actually didn't know, understand what really, what kind of determination was required to be in anime production. Right, right, right. So I actually call myself as a shit, piece of shit back then, so.

And now look where you are. Started from the bottom, now we're here. I mean, all the team, the friends that made back then, that's actually now at Orange. So my fellow producer is originally from Madhouse. Two of them. So what's the timeline looking like? So you moved to Japan.

How long is it then from being involved at this show and being a line producer to then kind of getting the opportunity to work with Studio Orange? Like, what's that timeline like? So I graduated college 2006. I went into Madhouse then. So 2012, I left Madhouse.

I actually kind of got depressed with the state of the industry. And I kind of left the industry. And I went into venture companies. And that was a whole new mistake. Oh, God. Oh, God. I experienced two venture companies, and it was two of them exploded.

Oh, geez. I'm tired of these crappy businesses. I'm going to go to venture capital. And then you went from venture capital back into anime, I guess. Someone who I knew at PA Works was very kind enough to say that my perspective is very interesting, so why don't you work for us. So I spent a couple days, a couple years there, and then went to Orange. Okay. PA Works.

What have they produced? studio, they've produced, Sherabako, Hanasaki, Encyclopedia, Nogunasgana. Yeah, I'm, sorry, I, yeah, I don't know shit. Studios, that mean anything to me? I'm like bones, I'm more like boneless. I don't know what you're talking about. So I'm curious, what anime did you grow up with?

What are some of your favorite anime that I guess? Yeah, what was the, what was the anime that I guess inspired you to go into that field, right? I mean, definitely Slayers. Oh, wow. Banger. Trigone, definitely. Yeah.

Oh, hell yeah. Hell yeah. Hellsing. Right. Yeah. It was great. Oh, those are some old. That's three bangers, right there?

Yeah. Yeah. So you said you were a fan of Trigon. How was it like getting the job to re-adapt Trigon? So I was actually never expecting to work on Trigon. So it was actually, I came in later into the project. Mm-hmm. So my friend, my partner and friend, producer, Waki was the one who founded founded the project. and started.

But first when I opened the book, I mean, I was like everyone else. I'm like, what the fuck are you guys doing? It's like, don't touch a classic. Please. Yeah, there must have been some kind of trepidation that where you hear like, you're readapting it.

Like, the anime was pretty good. Yeah. It was kind of like a bit of like, I don't know if this is going to work. I mean, when I have, I mean, the more information I knew about the entire picture, I was more comfortable with it. Right, right.

Yeah. I mean, as a, um, as the first project that how it started was that it was the producers went to the original creator of Trigon himself and saying that we want to make Trigon. Yeah. But Naito was like, well, I would love you guys to expand on it, not adapted again. Right. Yeah.

Because he's already been adapted. Yeah. Yeah. What was like the philosophy when it came to re-adapting a show that a lot of people held dear to their hearts? Because there must have been a lot of pressure on you guys to get this right. I mean, we're all from, I mean, even the director himself, we have kind of linked lineage to Trigon. Oh, okay.

So the director's master was the Trigons director. Oh, wow. Okay. Okay. So we all of us have very special feelings to the 98 Trigon. Yeah. It's like, I will overpass you, Master. Look at me.

Yes. As an ambition, we definitely had that. Oh, yeah, for sure. But as a work, we never had intention to rewrite every. everyone's precious memories, but to work along with it. Oh, I mean, it was very different from the original as well in a lot of aspects, I think. So I think it was really good. It was very different, but I feel like it was in a good way because I've seen enough

remakes that just try to redo everything, like step by step in like modern animation. And I really appreciated that you guys went a completely different direction. Well, I think keeping the core of Tragor. You kept the vibe. For sure. I mean, has had a bit more success with remakes and jokes. general than other mediums. I mean like Hunter Hunter and Full Metal Alchemist,

but I mean, when you compare it to like how then recently they announced that they're remaking Moana in live action. Oh yeah. You ever think, man, as a producer or a creator, is there ever gonna be too many remakes or are we gonna be making too many of these? Like I always just wonder about that.

When you're working on a remake, you're like, are we, is this a good idea? I don't know. Yeah, I feel anime doesn't have as much of a problem that like Hollywood remakes have been going through, especially like Disney remakes and stuff like that. Yeah. Just because I think we've learned from the past

that sometimes the remakes aren't really worth it. Yeah. You know, and I feel like the most successful remakes are the ones where, at least in the anime world, are the ones where it took the original vibe and the concept and just gave us something completely different, right? Like the reason why like the fruits basket remake

was so successful is because it did exactly that. It took kind of an incomplete story from the anime and just kind of took all of the parts that were wrong with it and just improved upon it without changing the vibe. And it ended up being an amazing remake. So I feel like full metal brother, full metal brotherhood, full metal.

Full metal, Alchemist. I've watched full metal Alchemist. Yeah, clearly. Full metal brother. I've seen full metal brother. Alchemist. Yeah, I feel like, I feel like, I feel like after that, just like there was a whole wave

of just like, oh, Hunter was like, the remake is so good. Oh yeah, Jojo's technically remake? Yeah, I guess so, I guess so, yeah. Okay, I want to know, without obviously spoiling anything that you're working on now, what goes into the decision making of what gets a season two and what doesn't get a season two?

As an anime producer, you probably have the most perspective about this. I mean, we get a lot of recustom-make season two, of course. Yeah. But, I mean, first, we have to give in the choice to make season two. Okay. I mean, we have clients. Yeah. So is the client going to give us a choice to make season two?

Right, right, right. I mean, so far, once we're given a choice, we always said yes so far. Yeah. Okay. But other projects we haven't done is that we don't have the choice to say it yet. Right. I mean, maybe one day it'll come by. Yeah, because it's always so weird as an anime viewer.

You see some of the things that are on like their fifth season and then some fan favorite shows Never go past like season one. And I'm like, this makes no sense to me. AKA Data Live and No Game No Live. Is that just because the framework of how anime gets made is just so complex with a lot of parties that get us say. And if it does or doesn't happen,

is that the reason why? I mean, the business model is a very similar way, but the people involved are all different. So it's really hard to say what's happening. I mean, it could be the original creator, it could be how the business producers are, or it could be the studio. or there's a complete other reasons.

So, so the anime studio only gets involved after everything else has already been approved or does Studio Orange get to, you know, be at the seat when shows are being pitched for like, not even like a season two, but just to be made in the first place. Yeah, like, do you guys get to like negotiate being like, we personally really want to see a season two of this,

what do you think kind of thing? It depends on project to project. Orange, because we're CG-based, we have a lot of limitations. So, like, shows, involves 100 characters we can't do it because that means equals a lot of budget right right right the business model currently doesn't support that kind of budget so there's no way we get that budget so why does increasing the characters increase the budget so to make one

character involves making a cg model yeah which costs a lot of money so making hundreds of that is equals times that oh okay and that's why you end up with the cg crowds where all the characters just are the same model because it's a lot cheaper right and same movement as well yeah Same movement, yeah, exactly. But by that logic, when we see some 3D and anime in 2D anime, surely it would be more expensive than to produce a model and then animate that model just for like one scene in anime, or is there some kind of cost-cutting method that makes more sense for that?

So in our case, I can't speak for other. But in Orange's case, that's why we use still hand-drawn characters as well. So in V-Stars, if you notice, there's a lot of hand-drawn characters. One-scene-only characters. Okay. That's, yeah, I mean, how much do you put into, like, let's say you're given a series, right? And you still want to, like, hand draw some scenes. How do you choose which scenes you want to, like, hand draw versus which scenes you want to, like,

keep completely in 3D? It totally depends on what can we do in 3D. Right. So if the 3D is going to explode into 3,000 pieces, then in that case, our BFX team is very excellent. So they'll say they could do it. Okay. But if it's going to, let's say, split into 100 characters, then our animation team says that we can't do that.

Oh, okay, okay. So how big is your team in terms of like your, let's say, 2D animation kind of like specialty? We currently have about over 100 employees. So every year we have about 20 employees trying to extend the studio. Right. We think that's the limit of how we could train people. Right.

Okay, okay. And I guess like you, I guess I'd like to know more about, you know, you have your own like journey into the anime industry, but if say someone's watching this right now and they were interested into getting into the anime industry, maybe as like a producer or any other kind of role, what is like now that you've been here for like 10, 10 odd years, what's your like advice to people

who actually want to get into the animation industry? Yeah, totally depends what you want to do in this industry. If you want to be an animator, then just start drawing and then if you haven't drawn, start drawing and just apply to any studio. Right. We have a lot of shortages in this industry. So I don't say, I can't say speak for other studios. So I can't say for their working condition. But I mean, please find a good working condition partner to work. Okay. Okay. I guess I want to bring things back to Trigon because that was, I just finished watching that like to, like three weeks ago.

I finished watching it yesterday. Thank you. So it was fresh in my mind. Oh, it was insane. You mentioned that the author had a big hand in the production of this. Is that normal for like anime

adaptations? Not normally. I mean, normally the author is focused on drawing their manga. So people involved, everyone involved want to have that author to keep on doing that. Yeah, yeah. So they might just review

certain key points of the production. Right. And even in Dragonstampi, actually, Naito didn't review every single details. Right. But he reviewed the core part that really mattered. Right. Right.

What is that core part? So to drink and party hard, to understand each other as much as possible at the start of starting, even before starting anything. Oh, you have you got drinking and eating together? Yeah. So basically talking about what movies do you like,

what kind of designs do you like? Oh, wow. Basically, the whole entire question was, who are you? Yeah. And what did you mean to design this? Was the entire question of having- So kind of getting into the psyche of the author, right?

Yeah, okay. That's a pretty cool method, actually. Rather than like doing a boring business meeting of being like, all right, so can you check to make sure that Vash's character design and everything and the things he says is cool, then rather than just being like, beer? Yeah, that character likes beer as well.

You know, when I was drunk, a shit and I was writing this character. This is how I felt, yeah. I think that's a great way of doing it because it's like obviously you wanna be able to get into the head of the original creator as much as possible to make sure that you don't have to keep like going back and forth

with them, right, to be like, is this correct? Is this correct? So I mean like how long is that process usually? Like when the ball gets rolling, it's like, okay, we're doing new trigon, we wanna make sure it's to the likeness of what the author envisioned. So like how long is that I guess just like incubation process of making sure that everyone's on the same wavelength?

Yeah, Trigon actually took five years too. Holy five years. Okay, I was expecting like a couple of months or you know, a year at most. Wait, wait, wait, can you bring down what those five years? So that first year was definitely the intensive part. Right, yeah. Talking to Naito, how do we understand you?

Drinking. Yeah, drinking. Yeah, drinking. One year of drinks before we're happy, to proceed to my damn. I mean, it's not all drinks. Yeah, yeah. Just hanging out and chatting. Yeah.

But yeah, from there, it started, then how do we create this world? So Naito's world is in the manga frame itself. We can't ask him to just draw the entire what's not in the manga. Yeah. Because he's working on Kekaisensen. I mean, that's precious to him as well.

Yeah, right, right. So then how can we make something precious as equivalent or try to at least match the preciousness of what he created? Okay. So we hired an actual sci-fi author to write down the entire history for 150 years of history from this before the crash to after the crash. Oh, wow. So you just have the entire timeline of the world just laid out.

Oh, wow. Okay. And from there, you kind of like built up from that, like one timeline? So from there, we decided what to keep, what not to keep? What can we describe? What can we not describe? Okay. How much of this timeline was not in the show?

I'm curious in terms of like percentage. Percentage is difficult, but I mean... Was it like the majority or... There's a lot of hundreds of pages before the crash. So a lot of it doesn't include there. I don't know what the crash is. Should I know what that is? So in 98-Trigan, they crash.

It's been so long since I watched it. Yeah. Yeah. So it is... Okay. How do we explain without spoiling? Okay. Don't spoil.

Yeah, okay. Even not, everybody's seen the original Trigar. Yeah. Well, it was in the original Trigand, I forgot. It's been so long. So in the original Trigand, even though it's kind of like a Western, right? It's obviously not set on Earth, right? And so humanity has found a way there.

Yeah. And basically it turns into kind of like a sci-fi aspect. Yeah, remember that part. I remember aliens and I don't remember why. Because I feel it's not until like the last like four or five episodes. I was like, what? I was like, okay, but cool cross go, br-dr. And then Vash goes super scene.

Because I feel like a lot of the sci-fi aspects in the original Trigone, that was almost not like one of the core aspects of the show. It definitely came in like halfway through, but I feel like Trigone Stampede, the first big difference I noticed was, you're like, from episode one, this is a sci-fi show. We are leaning into that right now.

Was it part of, the creative decision to kind of like focus more on the sci-fi aspects and focus on like the world building yeah the director um one of his specialties is his question in designing everything is where are you from where are you going right so in try gun they had to know where these characters are coming from right what their objective is and where they're going to the end oh okay so so so going back to the timeline how much how much didn't or how much didn't you put in the show or how much did you actually show out of everything that you, all this work that you did before

in terms of building this world? Well, my partner says that we could make like five more shows. Oh my God, my God. I feel like you could release that sci-fi book as like an episode zero. Yeah. You know, like a light novel or some kind.

I feel this, because like you could definitely feel, you know, they were definitely in the way that the story was structured at when you get to know more about the crash and the history behind the crash, there's definitely a lot of vital information there that is important. to the present day of whatever episode you're watching,

which obviously is great because it gets him way more invested into the storytelling, but there were also a lot of details where I'm like, okay, but I kinda wanna know a little bit more about this because that would just get me even further invested, but obviously there's a 12 episode time limit, right? So you can't fucking go all out with it. Like, you know, the Dune movie did the exact same thing

where it's like, I'll give you, or sprinkle in some of hints of backstory. Why is it always 12 or 24 episodes? That's how the TV structured broadcasts in Japan. Oh, damn, I was like, damn, there's gonna be a cool reason. There's TV contracts, okay. All right. But some of them would go direct to streaming

and don't even air on TV in Japan, but they still keep that 24 or 12. Netflix doesn't. You think about edge runners, that was 10 episodes. I guess so, yeah, but then even on Netflix, a lot of the anime do still go at 12 or. And then, you know, if you go to like OVA, stuff like that, like Fully Cooley was only six episodes.

Castlevania started off as four episodes, than eight episodes. So I mean, I feel like it's a difference between like, let's say, a Netflix original produced anime and something that Netflix just bought out. Which... That's like a big chunk though to decide in one go.

Like, what if you have like 16 episodes worth? Like, yeah. You just trim it down or do we try and find stuff to fluff out? I mean, that's the entire dilemma every single and you produce a director field. It's either too quick or way too slow. Yeah, so if that's based on manga, it could be, ideally, 16 episodes,

But they can only use 12, so what do they do? Yeah. Okay, so like, I have so many questions, but I guess go into the manga thing. So you have a manga, you have to adapt. Like, let's say, Trigon or B-Stars. How do you position it so that the season ends on like a banger? You know, on like what feels like a season ending?

And what if there's no, what if there's no like natural breaking point? What's the creative process around condensing everything? everything into 12 episodes. So in case of B-Stars, even Tragun, what we do is the same, we actually take everything apart first. Right.

And we look at what is the tempo of the film, what is the tempo of the story, and what's the, how can we keep everything, but still not some part we had to cut it out. Right, right. So basically everything is kind of like, everything has to be planned around like,

kind of like a self-contained story arc is, what I'm what I'm getting. All right. So, you know, going back to Trigon, you have your, you have your timeline. What comes next after the timeline? So timeline, as we're developing timeline, we're developing concept arts. So then it comes into what ideas can emerge from the storyline visually. Okay.

So, I mean, we hired, we were working with Tajima Koji. He's the guy behind, like, who designed the new venom in the live-fashioned venom. Okay, okay. And so he's excellent. And he's amazing. So each day he draws dozens of images. And he drew 400 images for Trayton. Just concept art.

Yeah, concept art. I mean, I've seen a lot of bookstores in Japan where they just sell straight up books filled with these concept arts. And it's literally like big enough for a lot of series to just fill an entire book. And, you know, some of these images you've never seen in the show.

It's just like to get a vibe or a feel of this is what the world and story and characters is going to be like, yeah. Okay. So 400, we used it some of our promotion, but most of the design is entirely different. Right, right. Because the idea is what really matters there.

So at this point, how many years into production are you in? So this is still the first year. Still the first year. Has the script been written yet? No. Okay. Okay, okay.

So you have, okay, so you have your concept art, and then I guess you kind of like narrowed down, what kind of vibe. Yeah, so we made the fact, entire foundation into the year. Right. Then from the foundation, we started writing the script.

Okay, okay, okay. At this point, was character design, like a thing? No. Design is, has a purpose. Right, right, right, right. Like, industrial design, always has a purpose, was the concept for Trident.

Okay, so it's not that I like this style, design, I don't like this design. It's, why are you designed that way? Okay, like, does it work in the wall that it's set in? Right. So, it's like, can you break down? what concept art kind of like is. What is it that is being drawn

and what kind of like thing is being built on? So for example, like create, it's really hard to describe without the concept art in front of a feeling. Yeah, like a feeling. Yeah, like I mean, what inspired, I mean, it's something definitely, that concept art does it,

how much can we inspire the script writer, the director of the designer. Right. To give more of a picture of the world. I suppose, I'm gonna flash it out. Cause I'm, yeah, I mean, I'm fucking stupid. If I don't see a picture of something, I'm like, I can't imagine that.

Like, to me, that doesn't mean anything. I'm a visual liner. Like, I'm just straight up dumb. I'm not like, I don't get a picture. I'm like, what am I reading here? So it sounds like the concept art is like, for more of the better terms, it's like a vibe check, right?

To just be like, here is the general overarching, feel and vibe of the world. And then from there, you kind of start honing into the details as you go into like character design and all that kind of stuff. Is that concept art? Yeah, that's concept art. Oh, okay. So in the original Trigun anime, um, it was designed as Western.

Yeah. So there's, it's Western inspired. So there's what made, things made out wood. Yeah. But if we're taking this sci-fi approach, um, this is a desert planet. There's no plants. There's no kind of plants. So if civilization, human civilization brought in a craft,

ship there's no wood used on the ship. Yeah. So where does this word come would come? So it doesn't come from anywhere. No. I've thought about that. So in this new Trigon Stampede, we don't have any wood architecture unless it's a this one origin called plants. It's not it's not same as plants of the trees but right. I never, I've never thought about that and checkmate Trigon. Oh my God. Because when you when you see like the towns and cities in Trigon, it just I can't explain it. It just feels like, Yeah, that could be real. Sometimes you just watch a show where the world just makes sense

on a subconscious level. Do you know what I mean? Well, sometimes you watch a show or play a game and you're like, I don't know why this world operates this way. And you can't really, you can't really say why it doesn't make sense, just something just feels wrong.

But one thing I got from watching Trigon Stampede is that it feels like a world that just exists. Yeah, like you don't stop to question it. You don't stop to question it, you know. And it's not like every detail it's spelled out, but it feels like your brain just accepts it on a subconscious level, and I guess I'm like kind of figuring out why that is now.

I mean, we figured out, we thought about how is the population ratio of these crashed ship, where did they focus on? So the Asian population focuses on here, other population focus here. How did these people communicate? So the trade route should be focused like that. So those are all things we thought about. That's wild.

How deeply did you go into the, like these little details in the works. Yeah, the macroeconomics. I mean, the book is like this big. Oh my God. Oh my God. Yeah, you're basically like recreating a civilization from scratch.

Yeah, yeah. That's wild. I thought that probably game creators are probably doing like this. Oh yeah. Yeah, you play destiny. You're like, go online to download the 19 page PDF to find out why this rock is a boy.

You're like, what the fuck? I don't wanna do that. It's like some Lord of the Range shit. You guys explain stuff to me. What the hell? So this was all done within like the first year. I mean, that took, I mean, we're starting to go into the later years too as well. Okay.

So everything is going in parallels. Right. So everything is going in parallel. So at which point did like the script start being written and like, let's say the character designs start being like finalized? After the first year, we started going to designs and the script writing. Right. But to finalize that, we took three years.

So, oh shit, okay. Is this, in your experience, is this like normal for an anime production? No, no, no. Okay. I mean, Orange itself is uncommon for an anime production. We take three years. Right.

Where industry standard is like two. Yeah, yeah, that's what I thought is. Isn't that crazy to think? Like, you say three years very casually, but that's the time that trash taste has been around. Isn't that wild to think about? You guys could have a trash tish sammy. If we start of working.

on episode one, it would be done right about now. That's crazy. Oh my God. Yeah, it's interesting that you had so much concept art done because I kind of just assumed that because there was like pre-existing material, like manga, like a manga there, that there wouldn't be, there wouldn't need to be this much work to be done in pre-production. I mean, there's also a previous anime as well, right?

It's anime as well. But I guess, I guess this is like the work that you don't really think about or, you don't really see. I'm curious because you mentioned earlier as you know, do your job to find the money to fuel the anime. Surely when the show takes five years, that's a lot more money that we've got to get a hold of.

How do you kind of, I mean, how do you convince people to be like, it'll make enough money? Trust me, it'll work. What's that whole? Because I'm just so interested

about the financials of it all because it seems like such a kind of an industry that doesn't have a lot of money, but somehow it always just turns up and it's like, we'll figure it out. So a lot of Japan is not really legal culture, so it's a lot about trust. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, we, Orange luckily had track record of making amazing shows.

Yeah, right. Animation at least. So we basically were building on that trust and working on that trust. Right. Constantly just saying that it's going to be okay. But me at home. Let's just take a word for it. No, I don't know.

And so as a, because I'm, I don't know. know how any of this works, you know, as a, as a studio that actually makes the show, how is it the studio actually makes money from these shows? Is it, you know, what kind of revenue, ways of getting revenue is there for the studios? It depends on from, it really depends on, on the show, widely on how each show is. Oh, okay. For Orange, the primary is we're work for hire. So we're hired by a client to do one show. Okay, okay. That makes way more sense. I thought it was like, okay, guys, we gotta sell this many REM figures,

oh, we're going broke this year. All right, crack over the savings account, boys. Like, everyone pitching $1,000. All right, boys, we're making a REM spin-off. You know, we gotta get those figure sales up, guys. Yeah, you know, I always wondered how, you know, because it seemed like it was a lot of different rights holders and a lot of different parties at play,

and it seemed like a really complicated mess of who gets, what money and why there's so many, different things and wait, why is REM on a Pachinko machine? What the hell? It's like a bunch of different things going on. It always seems just kind of like a, yeah, trust me. Yeah, trust me, it'll be fine. That's approach a lot of the time.

So how long does it take to produce a single episode of anime? Let's say like a single 20 minute episode of anime in your experience. How long does that take to make? So a normal production would say like three months, but that's not for Orange normal production. Right. In Orange's case, we actually make about three episodes at once. Right.

And then find what's the quality line. And then based off there, make the rest other episodes. Right. So that first three episodes is a benchmark maker. What do you mean by the quality line? I mean, so like, this is the quality benchmark that we're trying to set. Well, you set yourself a really high benchmark. I've seen that first episode of China.

So you go, you go like a... You should hear me talking to my boss. I get it, I get it. Please don't set it so high. Please don't set it so high. Oh, so you could be like, guys, pop the breaks on this one. Let's make this shittier. We gotta make 50 goddamn episode of this.

We gotta slow down. I just like to think like how many times for every single project I say, we are doing better than any other show. So it's your job to be like, guys, guys, make it worse. Please stop this. I just like to imagine like episode one just like airs for,

everyone in the studio to watch, everyone's just sweating. Being like, oh fuck, we gotta top of this. Yeah, it does feel like when you're, you know, when your older brother is like smart, you're like, fuck sake, man, really? That's not. Stop.

Now I look worse. Be dumb. I remember like, Trigon Stampede episode one. It opens on a scene where it's like, it's like the spaceship is like exploding and you see Vashon eyes like flying out. Oh, just like whizzing. Yeah, like whizzing around.

And I remember watching that, I was like, God damn. Yeah. I suppose you've watched that and you're like, this, we've got 12 episodes of this. That we've got to keep up to. That was okay. That was okay.

When I saw a 12 episode when they were doing it, I'm like, I messaged my, everyone in the company, I'm like, how are you doing this? It's like, we're fucked boys. I've noticed it now because there is so much anime being made, it's like more competitive, like, competitive than ever in terms of like shows that you've got to. compete with. There's a lot more pressure to make like episode one a standout episode to get people's

attention. Do you have that thought mindset going into like producing an anime that you have to make episode one stick or land as soon as possible or is that something that's not already thought about? I mean definitely it's a weekly show so the first episode really matters. Right. Also we in our mind or based on our successful experience with Land Illustrius. Yeah. Is that first three episodes that really, really matter. The three episode are all.

Oh my God. It's damn it. They use it in the industry, boys. Oh my God. The three episode rule. Oh my God. There's actually a reason for that as well. The Dragon Stampede was based on a movie,

the three part movie. I don't know the English. A trilogy. No, no. How it's act one, act two. Oh, yeah. Three acts. three-act roll.

So it's based on three-act roles. So the first three episodes was the first act. Right, right, right. So from there, it changes the tone again. Right. Would you say that Trigon was the hardest production you've been involved with? Yes, every single production is always hard,

but it just updates, whatever. It just gets harder and harder and harder, yeah. How was working on B-Stars compared to Trigon? Say no more. So, B-stars, our animator took one, week to do one shot. Dragon Stampede took three weeks to do one shot. Oh my god damn. Well I mean I guess you know if you have to animate clothes on characters in Trigon versus not many clothes. Oh the face. Yeah because like I noticed I'm not

sure of this was always the case but I definitely noticed in Trigone that you guys lip synced the audio which which I'm like you're not using like the three frames of the mouth like I'm used to you're actually like going frame by frame and animating the facial expressions as well, which I, which is one thing that, like, really stood out to me. Yeah. So how, so going, going to BeStars then, how was that pre-production? Did you, was there as much time put into, let's say, the world building and the vibe going into that production? B-Stars case, we never, I mean, the original intention for our producing is that we love B-Stars. Yeah. And the whole, the producing team was that the first page

let's adapt this as it is to animation. So it wasn't that as hard as that. Okay. So was Itagaki, like, involved as much as, like, Naito-Sense was with B-Stars? In different ways. So in her case,

she wasn't as she used to, and she doesn't, she wasn't really familiar for us about anime. Right. So she was a lot more from experience of film. Oh. So for us,

our challenge was, can we show this as a film to her and it's something possible That explains so much. That's crazy to think that you would just, like the whole way the show is made is like, just to kind of, I guess, please one person, essentially. That's so odd to think.

It's also odd to think that she was never into anime considering she's the daughter of fucking, the creator of Barky. Like, you think you'd be into it, buddy. It wasn't really an anime for a long time, right? I guess so. Oh, I mean, there was the 90s Scrapple Baki anime, but. Yeah.

Well, I think that's part of the big reason why, like, you know, B-star is just, I don't know, something about the vibe just didn't feel like an anime? It's very odd. Yeah. It makes so much sense because I feel unlike a lot of manga stories out there, the flow of B-stars definitely feels more like a live-action film than a standard manga. I'm sure to say it, it's very weird.

Yeah. Is there ever a point where you guys are animating this? You're like, what the fuck is this? You're like, oh my God, what are we animating? It's like, okay, boys, I don't know how you tell you this, but we're gonna have to animate a rabbit having sex with a deer. They're just like, okay. You're like, all right, let's just watch the rabbits.

Or you're like, all right, boys, we're going to the strip club. We're going to research. We're going to go on location now. We did go to a strip club. I knew it. I knew it. Guys, to be accurate, we went to a pool dancing club, not a strip club. Okay.

You guys take notes. You guys will take a notes. It's reference with you. It's the research purposes. It's because there's a pole dancing character. I know, I watched it and I was like, what am I watching? Season one I could get away with saying I wasn't a furry,

but season two, it's just getting harder and harder to argue this. Oh no, I went into the anime already a furry. Like I was already converted. I just need to ask, why did you have to make Juno so hot? Yeah, honestly. Wait, wait, wait, what does that look? Why did you have to make it so hot?

Every single character in that, sure is hot. Oh no, wait, wait, wait, wait, okay. Okay, I will admit, Legacy also hot. But Juno, I don't know what it is about Juno that awoke something in me. Cause she, I think single-handedly turned me into a furry. I think there's something wrong in my brain. I can only envision the deer is called Stanley.

I don't know what. What is his name? It's Louis. Louis, I always think of him as Stanley in my head because of Stanley. He is off, he is a different anime if his name was. Louis is also glasses and, yeah.

I just like, I remember that scene, I think it was like end of season one where- Oh yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah. I'm just like, okay. Why don't these just do that in real life? Tell me you you,

were raised by the man who made back you without telling you. God, it was just that scene where it was like, Juno and Louie together. Oh. Like, she's just on top of him. I'm just like, I could feel neurons just firing at that. This sounds weird that anyone who hasn't seen Beast.

I can only get so wrecked. It could be a lot of less, what we do is that, It's mocapped. Oh, yeah. I was going to go into that, actually. So I assume that most 3D studios don't do mocap? A lot of 3D studios do mocap, but they use it totally different way from us. So how do you guys use it as opposed to other?

So for us, it's only a reference. So for example, you know how Pixar animators, they act on camera and make their scene? Basically, we're just doing that in mocap. So all our animators are doing the motion capture. Oh, okay. Oh, okay. How extensively is that used? Is that like every scene or just?

Every physically doable scene. So it's just regular just talking like this. Right. Our animators do it. But if it's like dancing, fighting martial art and stuff, we have higher professional people to do it. You have to hire like professional martial artists. Oh, wow.

Oh, that's cool. Or professional motion act capture, yeah. Oh, wow. Well, how does that work? So they come into the studio one day and you kind of like, okay, this is, Do you come up with the choreography or do you get them to come up with the fight choreography?

Usually we hire someone to come up with the choreography. Right, right. So how does that read in a script versus how, how, like what? Seeing why this took five years. Yeah, yeah. Adding these steps on more than I. I thought it was just some dude, just playing around with a model.

Just wiggling it around. What the hell is this? We hire people to act it out? Yeah, it's like, I'm super curious. So like, let's say in the script, there's a scene in Trigone, Vash fights a baddie or something. How much detail is in the script that the choreographer has to work with to, I guess,

make the action scene? Action scene actually lies heavily more on storyboard. So in the script, it could be just like one line at times. Okay, okay. I feel, because like, yeah, Vash is kind of, I feel a little bit different because he's, a lot of his movements are just very animated, like, to the point where it's almost like, it's the kind of comedic like animator where it's like

oh that's clearly the movements of a cartoon character or like an anime character right it's like a lot of movements where it's like a human couldn't possibly do that kind of movement but it's believable because it's not a real actor you're looking at kind of thing so I feel that kind of movement would be super hard for like a mocap actor to do

yeah yeah I mean I feel like especially watching Vash's a lot of his character is to do is in his animation especially when he's like pirouetting round bullets and Yeah, all that kind of stuff. So, so in terms of like story, like storyboarding, I guess, going back to the timeline of like an anime being made, so you have the script and then does the storyboard come after that?

And then when the script's finalized, we start doing storyboard. Right, right. So in our case, we do something called prescoring after that. So instead of recording, most animas in Japan record after the, when they start doing animation. But for us, we do recording before we start doing animation because we want to make all the pacing of the film before our animators going.

Okay, I guess that explains the perfect lip syncing then because I was like, that would have been hard as far as to do. Do you make a film to make a film? Yes. It's weird how to get better animation. You should bring more human involvement in the animation. Yeah.

Basically, our concept is that how can we use the experience, but instead of relying solely on people experience, how do we make that as a way? a system. So if we could adapt that experience into a system first, then next project, we could use that system as a foundation to gain more experience. Right, right. Okay. How many, how many shows do you end up working on like simultaneously? Is it only like one at a time? Or do you like have multiple shows that you're being worked on? Depends on time to time, but usually two shows at a time for animation. For planning, as a producer, I'm working like five,

six different shows right now. Oh, wow. How do you like just organize that all? I mean, I have some assistant producers. Right. Or some projects I'm more emotionally involved in. Right, right, right. Invest in it's there.

So I don't give a shit about this show too much. Give it to the assistant. No, every show to Orange Matters. Of course, of course. We can't miss. I mean, we spent. He's done it. That's why they're the goat.

I agree, actually. I agree. I agree. It takes three years for us to develop a show. Have you ever said no to be like, I don't think we could do this or I don't know. No, I mean, there's a lot of times we say that. Okay, okay.

Is it due to like personal reasoning or like more like a technical, like limit or? I mean, it's mostly technical. Right. So I mean, if they were giving this certain manga and there's like 100, as I said, there are 100 characters. Right, right. We simply can't do this. Is there any like dream shows that you want to work on or that you would love?

Is there a show where it's like, If Orange did this show, it would be a banger. I'm working on this so I can't say it. Oh, damn. You can tell us after the show, man. We all know. Damn. No, I'm excited because.

So when is the show ending? I just wanna know right now. A question that is often asked nowadays, is, you know, because you do a little 3D animation and right now there's a massive conversation around like AI and all that stuff. Do you feel that there's any possibility in the future where it somehow helps make anime or helps the production aspect in any form.

Or could it be seen as perhaps a detriment to the current model that 3D studios might have? I mean, there's many issues of revolving AI. There's the moral issue. There's the legal issue. And I can't even specify which issue they have right now. Yeah, it's a lot. There's a lot. There's a lot.

I mean, unless we're able to feel comfortable with that, we're not going to use. utilizes a tool. I mean, everything eventually is a tool for us. Yeah. Yeah. But without that issue solved, we can't really use it. Yeah, because like, what is the general vibe around AI in, like, the Japanese animation industry right now? Because we have a vibe from Twitter. I mean, that's a vibe is always bad. Yeah. That's the only thing I actually know because I don't interact with the rest of the industry anymore. Oh, okay. Because to us, it's about how can we make ourselves better. Yeah. Yeah. Right. I mean, using, other part of the industry is not really a reference.

Don't have enough time to care about the rest of the industry. It's like, we just need to make bangers, damn it. It sounds selfish, but I mean, it's our problems that we're facing right now. Of course, yeah. So how did I solve our problems? Not other people's problems. No, definitely.

Has this conversation cropped up in Studio Orange at all? Like the conversation of AI? We always have the conversation, but right now is not yet. Okay. Yeah. Maybe in the future if things settle, but not yet. Right. I guess because there's always like, you know,

softwares have like smart tools, right? Like there's some things that all, you know, you can tell it, hey, I mean like, in a weird way, I guess like fill on paint, right? Yeah. Fill the whole thing. It's like in between all, it's like, I guess there's always that line

that's kind of difficult with some tools that make doing certain kind of things in animation or whatever easier that would technically be clashes AI, but on, I just morally using the whole take everyone's fucking input and then blow something out. Yeah. It's kind of like getting that balance of tools

that are useful and made ethically between the whole, let's make an anime for me. Yeah, it's like, to what point are you, is it morally right to automate the process? Yeah. Right, where it's like, if it's too automated, then is it even a person making it? It's also like how is that automation being done? Right, right.

What is it learning from? What is it maybe even stealing from, right? Yeah, I guess that's the moral quandary of it all. I mean, right now, I mean, we, debug to our own tools. Oh, wow. Really? Not AI tools,

just tools. Yeah, absolutely. So, I mean, we have experience of 10, then we make them tool, then that will create us an equivalent of experience of three. So we haven't done off to our new grads,

then use that, then they instantly start out from three. So that's our way of thinking. What do you mind? Do you mind elaborating what tools that you have? So, I mean, one would be the automorph face. So one of the thing is that CG and hand drawn,

the most major difference is that CG is three-dimensional hand-drawn is not. Yes. It might look three-dimensional, but the comfort level doesn't have to be three-dimensional to create comfort.

So a lot of manga is actually not three-dimensional. It looks to be realistic, but it's not three-dimensional. Yeah. Because like I guess there's there's always like the challenge of, you know, having a 3D model is great,

but making sure that it looks good, on camera, I guess, which is a two-dimensional thing. And you have to create a specific tool just for that. So we have a tool called Automorph where we point the camera to a character, and that model would just automatic a warp. So it could just this side, just completely warp this way to make sure that on the camera, it looks really natural. So like sideways, manga characters will have two eyes where it's just good,

it's impossible because of 90 degrees. Yeah. But in our auto-moff, it automatically warp it so that looks like that. Oh, shit. Okay, okay. So you're kind of playing around with, so you're morphing the face to play around with perspective. Yes.

To make it look more naturally, like, I guess, two-dimensional, right? You guys develop that in-house. In-house. Oh, wow. That's cool. Because as an experience, we know how to do it by hand, but we're physically changing the model every single shot. That's just like kind of like, almost like presets a little bit.

It's like, okay, if camera here warp the face around. Yeah. Have you seen the behind the scenes of like some of the Jojo openings? I haven't actually, no. Oh, because like there are some shots. Yeah, those are three D. And there are some shots with some like the poses and you,

there's like been some screenshots of like what it looks like out of like the camera perspective. And like I remember seeing one where I think it's like Joseph's hand was like just like warped like ridiculously when it was doing like one of the pose. It looks it looks so ridiculous. when you just change the perspective just a little bit. But on camera, looks really cool.

Yeah, I guess that's one thing I wanted to ask. It's like when you guys wanted to, obviously, you know, the main goal with Orange is to be like, all right, how do we make the 3D animation look as pristine and as comfortable for people who are more used to just watching 2D animation as possible? When it came to that, like, obviously there's been like past and different studios who have done 3D animation

with varying success. Have you ever gone to look at some of the, maybe the older shows that have used maybe a little more like primitive 3D to kind of like get a hint of like, okay, maybe if we work on this, then it won't end up like this show or like do you use it as a reference to be like, okay, this is what not to do?

So let's not do what they did in this show and instead try and fix that in our show. It's the most case that it's actually trial and error on their own thing. Right. So we try it, start making it. start making it and it doesn't work, then we go back to the scratchboard, do it again. So you never look back at like old shows to be like,

that 3D sucks. Not really. Okay. That's good to know. There's actually a lot of things to focus on. I mean, if other people are doing better, then it's more time,

it's more better to use on analyzing that. Right, right. I've found it really interesting you use the word comfort. Uh-huh. When watching animation, that seems, it kind of makes sense why you would say the word comfort. but it seems very unusual to describe animation as being comfortable, right?

But I suppose when we talk about 3D where often the major complaint is that it's, it looks weird. Uncanniness, yeah. Yeah. So what is it that, like, why do some shows just not get that right? Like, what is the main thing that is the common mistake that happens when we're talking about 3D animation? Because it's 3D.

Yeah. Yeah, it's 3D. Well, wait, why is that bad? I don't know. So, I mean, they're trying to make look something that's really not 3D. So that causes it a comfort. Right. So it's kind of like an uncanny valley effect.

So it's a little bit different from the uncanny valley that Pixar and stuff ran into it first. But since we're trying Tune Shade, then we run into a different uncanniness. What's Tune Shade? Tune Shade is basically the cell look, the hand-drawn type of look that we do in 3D. Okay. So do you specifically try to, I guess, emulate the anime style? Do you want your shows to be seen like a 2D show Or kind of like something a bit different from

Like your typical 2D anime We start out I mean When we start doing animation It's just whatever we're able to do at the time Yeah yeah We start out as a work for hire for other hand drawn studios Right so we're required to look something Create something that blends into their art style

So that's where we started out Yeah because you guys worked Like co worked on Black Bullet Right Yeah so like what was the main role of Studio Orange in that show. I can't really remember. Was it like backgrounds and stuff or?

There should be some enemies, I think, that appeared in Black Bullet. Right. That was CG. That was CG. Oh, okay. It was before my time, so sorry. Right. No, no.

Okay. Yeah. Do you do less of that work, that kind of work now in terms of like working on other shows in terms of like 3D, CG elements and now do you mostly focus on your own stuff? Yeah. I mean, focusing on more, our own stuff was our dream. Okay. So we have been in the,

that but I mean sometimes we have some open time so in that times we work for hire for other studios still so okay was Joseki no Kuni your first like fully studio orange produce show okay how did that come about was that so um it was actually how the project started was before any producer existed at orange oh okay um it was the the producer for B stars and trigon who wanted to land illustrious at orange right right and then um my partner waki was called in from Sury-Chizu who did like Horsada, Mamoros movie. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes.

So he's the first producer to exist in Orange. Oh, okay, okay. And it kind of like, it must have been, I guess, daunting to be like, yeah, we're just going to do a 3D-produce anime now. We've never... Especially when, like, Horsick and Okunee came out, and I think it was at, like, the peak of the 3-D anime equals bad stigma, right? And then all of a sudden you have a fully 3-D anime,

Land of Lustrous, which, you know, at the time, had a very dedicated like manga fan base as well, right? Yeah. I'm sure like, did you guys like get any initial backlash when it first came out or were people like pleasantly surprised about it? How did you? I don't think no one really expected anything until it came out. Right.

Came out suddenly. Yeah. How did you convince the producers to be like, yeah, okay. Trust us. Trust us. We haven't got anything to, uh, anything to prove ourselves, but trust us. Our resume is practically empty, but we can do it. Actually, we did some character animation before that industrious,

but not as a non-work for hire. Right. Did you have to like, because I guess like my, the first thing comes to mind is I remember like I saw a documentary of when Jurassic Park was being made. There was a conversation about whether we should do these dinosaurs in, you know, stop motion or in 3D. And the VFX company had to make like just a showcase of what they could do.

Did Studio Orange need to do something? similar as well going into it. No, I mean, the first start was that it was already decided that they wanted to do in 3D. Right. They wanted to land illustrious at Orange. So the producer's job is like, figure out. We have this daunting task for you, figure your shit out.

Like what the fuck? I, compared to, I mean, I guess 2D anime has something kind of similar where I imagine that with technology improving, it makes it easier. Was there like big leaps at all in the past, like since Land of the Lustres that have kind of made it easier or made production smoother? Well, we've done in the past is a lot easier

because we put it into tools. Right. But because of that time now we have, we're challenging new stuff. It's never easy for any shows. Yeah, I've noticed, like, it feels like, to me at least, from every show you guys have produced, you've always stepped up in some,

different ways. So even if you made a bang a show already, you're like, how do we do this better? How do we do this better? Yeah, because like, I didn't think you guys could top B stars and you did. Thank you. It was nuts, like, yeah.

Episode, I don't even wanna know how long episode 12 of Trigone took to produce because- that last fight scene, episode 12, is nuts. Yeah. I'll go watch it. Actually insane. For B-stars, how did you go about animating, like, animal characters and giving them, like, the same animalistic characters that each, I guess, animal has?

So B-Stars, we start out from, I mean, they have human traits as animals. Yeah. So what's the balance between that? So we started looking at what it called the anatomy. Yes. So how does animal muscle facial structure happen? Why do animals not smile? So how can we make these creatures smile?

Right, right. Was the first starting point. So you literally went, you literally had to break down each animal's anatomy. Did that go into like the modeling of all of the characters as well? Oh my God. I mean, like animals don't have this muscle and this muscle. Right.

So they can't make the rich expression as humans. It's impossible for them. Right. Yeah, because I guess that must have been like an uncanny valley that would have been difficult to overcome because it's like if you just added those muscles in to the model, then I'm sure like the first couple of like prototypes must have looked like super janky, right?

Yeah. Yeah. How much research did you have to do in each animal before even like modeling? I mean, that's the why reason three years. We drank at the zoo for three years and I talked to the animals. Broke into the zierre. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Smile, damn it.

We'll have a real challenge. Studio animal too. That was the real challenge. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I was, yeah. Yeah, so you had three years of research. Yeah.

I mean, two years of research. Two years of research. Jesus. Just, I mean, research is just in books or photos or videos, but also research of actually putting it into model. Right. It's working on. Is this three years after like, hey, we've signed a

contract being like, let's make the show. We've been brought in to do this. You know, how do you then explain, I assume to like a client, it's got to be kind of tough to be like, hey, just give them a little while. They're just figuring things out. Like, how does that all conversation go? I mean, that's the conversation we have to have for Trigone. Yeah, you're just like, hey, just trust me.

We're going to figure it out. Oh, I mean, Trigone, we, since a producer for a Trigon on our client's side, is a producer who worked for Nan Lustres. We knew each other. So we had a lot of mutual trust And we're not going to hide stuff We're showing him This is the process we're doing right now

Yeah How much do you kind of like Need to network as an anime producer In terms of meeting other people in the industry As of I used to be a hand drawn side Right But hand drawn side was immensely

Because I had to collect Every single animator myself too Oh geez Not every single But a lot of the key figures Yeah Yeah But for orange production

All our animers are in-house Okay So I don't have to do that on that side. It's to me, who am I going to find for the key staff? So the script writer, director, um, episode director and such. So is that in house as well? Are you, no, those are outside. Okay. So you literally have to like go out to the industry and see who is available to work on this one show for these specific roles. Yes. Why wouldn't you have those people in house? Like what's the benefit to having them, like picking at, uh, writers and stuff outside?

Some people we have in house, but each project is so different. I mean, what's required is so different. Art styles different, storytelling is different. That makes sense. So right. Okay, how accurate is Shirobako? I've always, because like, as an anime viewer, when we talk about anime production, there is a lot more resources out right now,

but to like I say, someone who's not too deep into the field, a lot of people look at Shirobako as being like, this is a documentary basically. Yeah, yeah, I've had so many instances of someone like giving me like a tidbit on like, oh, this is how the anime production works. And I'm like, what's your source? And they're like,

Shirobucka episode 7. And I'm like, okay, but maybe some of it is like dramatized. Yeah. I mean, papers, I mean, he's using as churikins is,

of course, it's a fiction. I hope so. Yeah. I mean, I was never involved in Shiroga Baku itself. Yes. I mean,

it's a lot of it is real. So when we're driving to pick up animation from animators, we see other, rival studios. We do stare at each other like this. and like start revving the end of the I mean, we all make sure that we are not caught. I was just like, I mean, we're doing legal stuff.

When you shoot each other's a strip club, it's like, no, we're working on that, not you. I'm sure you work it on. It's like that Zulanda meme. Yeah. Anna producers, when they're pricking up the animation, they just look past each other. Luigi death stare each other.

Shirovako feels so exciting and real because that is based on a lot of people's experience. Yeah. Is it normal for like an episode to be finished just before it like airs on TV? For our case, I mean, that's not the style we choose anymore. Yeah. But I mean, in my past career, I have had that kind of situation. Oh, my God. Was it like pretty often or was it like kind of like a one-off?

I could call it often. Oh, no. Who's got the good PC to render this. I mean, I had a time where I thought how I comfortably sleep at the studio was an amazing thing, but I'm really glad now that I don't have to sleep at a studio at all.

Jeez. That's good. That's good. Did you have to sleep like, you had your previous roles? Did you have to sleep there? How often did you have to sleep at the studio? Well, I mean, cardboard is comfortable. Oh, no.

Sleeping bag on the cardboard is even more comfortable. sleeping under a meeting desk is really comfortable because there's no light coming on you. Oh no. It's like, get this episode out, I haven't seen my wife in three days. How much like the office would, you know, obviously in the past,

how much of the office like percentage wise would end up just sleeping at the office? Percentage, percentage is difficult because I mean, everyone's doing different shows. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like it must feel like a giant sleeper. If everyone's just kind of, everyone's at the other.

I mean, there's certain, a couple couches that's in the studio. Okay, okay. Sometimes there was a fight to get that cuts to. I recently filmed something at a different anime studio and I turned up at like 3pm to film something and it was people, people were coming in

just from waking up and I was like, what? They just woke up, it's 3 p.m. I mean, that could be, that might not necessarily be overworking, I mean, the whole, just like, just living- Sleep schedule, might just be. I didn't get that impression, but I got the impression of like, oh, it's animators, they work on their own time.

Yeah, yeah. The sleep schedule is, a suggestion. What it gets done, it gets done. Well, you don't have to be awake while everyone else is awake. As long as you get you work done. You get those eight hours and you get those animations done. Who cares? I mean, now there's things are becoming digital. So you'll have assistance going in cars. But back then, cars was a thing. So if there's traffic, that means we have to spend more time outside of studio. So like, I guess you don't have to like, like, name any names or anything like that. But like,

when an anime production does go wrong, you know, when, when you see the final product and it's not like, not necessarily studio, and just in general with the anime industry, what goes into, what mistakes go into, like an anime production that might not have the final products that the people working on it want to have?

Like, because it seems like a lot of it is from the planning stages and I'm curious, just what actually goes wrong in that sense. I mean, there's thousands of array of things that needs to be careful about instant production. Right. So honestly, as a production management, the amount of information that you have to manage is very, very intense.

Right. I think even missing one of them will can be led to that. Can you give some examples of what kind of like information? It's like scheduling or? It's been a while so I tried to remember my memory. Yeah, because it's, I'm like, as an anime producer, I'm sure you have to like manage a lot of different things. So how long has it been since you joined Orange again?

It's been five years for me. Okay, five years. So enough to make one show. I mean, COVID did special thing to me. It kind of like a lot of my memory before. That's, that's humanity. That's just humanity. Symptoms of like long COVID,

you like a memory gets worse. Is it? Is it? Yeah, you can get worse. I met someone who was like, yeah, my memory's been crap since I got COVID. I'm like, wait, is this real? I looked it up, yeah, apparently you can,

some people got memory issues from- Jesus. If you caught it. You got long COVID. Holy fuck. I was just always done. So like it actually just, didn't do anything. Yeah, let me rephrase the question.

And what are some things to avoid to have a success? for anime production, in your opinion. To have a well communication, everything. Everything. I mean, you have to communicate, you can't refuse to communicate. I mean, you constantly have to keep on up on everything.

Right. I feel that applies to just most businesses, right? It's like one miscommunication and just shit goes array. Yeah, yeah. I remember like growing up, it was, I remember growing up like in university or something. like that, yeah, every job would be bigging up the communication skills. Yeah, and I remember always thinking as a teenager, I'm like, what fucking skills is there to do?

Just talk, bro, just talk. Yeah, you all, at every job interviewer, how good are your communication skills? I'm like, I know English, I guess. Yeah, but like, yeah, especially working in like, I worked as like a project management, I realized, oh, communication is definitely a skill and there are some people that suck at it.

And you have no idea how much your projects can go wrong, whether it be an animation or any kind of other project you're managing just because people don't feel like talking about it. People just don't talk about everything. And I can only imagine with how many moving parts there are in the animation industry. Because like on a general project, how many people are involved?

So when I was doing it, production assistant, I was in charge of 20 animators. So I had to look over the progress of 20 different animators for three months to six months. Right, right. And that itself is intensive because they're not necessarily in the studio. They could be working somewhere else. Right. And I had to call them.

They might not pick up. Now I'll call them again. They don't pick up. Yeah. I'll call them again. So if they call and pick up, communicate, that's just the really amazing animator just to me. At the time. All right.

But nowadays, I mean, if you look at the credits, there's like hundreds of animators and things. Right, right. I mean, back then, my, what I experience and things people experience now is totally different. I can't even imagine what people are going through right now because I've been away from that side. Yeah. Because it seems like a lot of the time, especially talking to, you know, Ken Arto, the other animator we had taught is that it's, it becomes common, I guess.

I'm not sure how common it actually is, but it's, seems like it's common for a lot of anime projects to be, let's say, behind schedule, right? And I guess I wonder how, is it because the estimation is wrong or is it a different thing every time that so many anime projects always seem to be behind schedule and there seems to be a lot of crunch in like the animation industry? I think every situation is different, but a lot of times a lot of people are trying to make it better. Right.

Their ambition is very big. Ah, okay. It could be from individual level to a production level. Right. I feel that's, yeah, because especially recently, I feel, there's just been so many more news articles coming out about this anime has been delayed. This anime has been delayed.

And I feel like, I'm sure there's been delays over, you know, the entire history of anime production. But like, it's something about just recently. Have you noticed this as well? So many shows are getting delayed. I mean, I feel like it's one thing. Yeah, maybe. You know, people are, you know,

people are taking more time. I hope so. And I feel like that's just kind of like a symptom with many more anime shows being made. So a lot of them are going to be delayed, I guess. I hope, I just hope that it is because of a quality issue and not say like, oh, the guy creating the schedule just fucked up and overestimated everything, right?

Well, it seems like, it sounds like from you, a lot of people in the anime industry are just perfectionists. Yeah, I mean, I understand. If they wait a day longer, they might get something better before one day. I mean, if I was working on one project for five years, I'd probably be a perfectionist too. I'm not gonna be like, yeah, it's done, it's good enough, whatever.

Orange, it's totally done differently. We actually simulate the entire production because we don't do that, there's gonna be a piece that it's missing. We're gonna be fucked, we can't actually get past that piece. Yeah, right, right. Because if it's hand drawn, I'll just say, it can just draw it.

Yeah, yeah. If it's C. tools can't do that. We can't do that. We can't do that. We can't get over there. We can't say, oh, we need this tool by tomorrow. Yeah.

That doesn't happen. Right, right. Okay. So, sorry. I'm just thinking about how, you know, I guess Japan is kind of notorious having a pretty brutal work-life balance. And anime even is even more so.

Like you mentioned, sometimes you sleep on the floor, you know, but it sounds like Stude Orange is also a lot more forward-thinking and kind of modern when it comes to the approach. when it comes to the approach of that. Just wondering, like, what are you, do you have any thoughts on Crunch or? There's a difference between Crunch and just normal Japanese work-life balance, which it sounds like everyone is in Crunch all the time in Japan.

I think it's because our way of thinking is different is because that we're not technically anime studio. We're a CG studio. And that, first of all, because the workforce comes from workforce that we share with gaming. Right. So, I mean, when people get out of college or whatever, the school or they train themselves,

we're constantly competing with the gaming industry to get people. So their starting point is their expectation in what they look for work is completely different. Right, right, right. You're like, hey, we think you'd be great for this. So, yeah, that's the starting point for us. So that's why it's so different.

What we do is very anime-like, but how people come into the industry is totally different. Right, you kind of set those standards to that more akin to like the gaming industry. than the standard anime industry. So in our case, like, it's 90% employee. So they all are employee instead of hand drawn. It's 90% hand drawn.

Right, freelance, sorry. Yeah, right. And you're in your, like, experience, you know, before Orange, how much, you know, if there's an anime production there, how much would be like in-house workers versus, let's say, freelance animators or, you know, animators outside of the studio? Before Orange. Before Orange was all just industry standard.

So mostly freelancers. Mostly freelancers. I mean, at Orange, I mean, I'm not sure if this is something we intended to go this way, but I mean, now it is so we like to keep it,

it is. Right. I don't want to go into like 90% freelancers. Yeah, because I've noticed even now, like there's a lot, like it didn't used to be this way, but I've noticed there were a lot more people who,

you know, maybe I followed on Twitter, um, just for like, I like the art. artwork or something and then I follow them for like long enough time and they get picked up by an anime studio. They end up working on an anime project. I'm like, what did this start to happen? What did they do before Twitter? Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, I mean, I can only imagine because I'm not

in that side. Yeah. I'm curious. How much do you pay attention to like fan reaction in terms of like Studio Orange's works? In that case, a lot. Oh, really? Yeah. I'm constantly on Twitter to look at responses. Oh, sorry. So sorry you have to do that. But I mean, positive or negative, it's all part of the responses that we need. There's got to be one though.

You're like, shut up. What are you? You don't know shit. I mean, there's always a season. Season two please. I can't say anything because it's not my position to say anything. I'd be like, no, I got you. I got you.

You're a piece of it. I totally understand. Love to have it. I can't see. So, B-star season three wins, shut up. I mean, I would love to talk about it, but now, right, yet. Yeah, right.

What is, what is, like, this is gonna sound so weird because it's Twitter, but what is some useful, like, response to your Twitter? That's the trick question. This is like, I don't really focus on individual responses. It's really the amount of energy. Where is the energy? Where is the expectation as a sort?

I think honestly we do the same thing. Like we, I don't read individual YouTube comments. I'm just like, what's the vibe? Yeah, yeah. Comments, like what people feel, you know, because you can kind of get the general kind of sentiment which I find is more useful than just one guy who's maybe annoyed that you didn't draw Legoshi

with a bigger bulge or something, you know what I mean? That I mean, like it's not helpful. Like getting the general, yeah, like you said, energy is so much more helpful. Yeah, sure. Yeah, do you ever like incorporate that into what you know, what feedback goes into your future works? Or is it more just to Jen get the vibe of,

okay, this show's doing well right now. People like it. I mean, I think I really see anime as something really fantastic. Yeah. When I first discovered Perfect Blue, it was amazing. Bang up. I didn't know anime could do this kind of sensation to me. Yeah, yeah.

So I want to create that sensation to as much people as possible. Oh, fuck yeah. And this means that I want to create people to be communicating via anime. Yeah. So I mean, like you guys invited me for Trit and Stampede. Yeah. Having a conversation, this is what I wanted to do. Oh, hell.

Yeah. So how can I do this with more people? Right. Is what I focus on. So using that and what I learned from how people are reacting, try to implement on the creative and the business side as well. I have to watch it. Because, because, probably you got to maybe watch anime.

Yeah. Because, okay, I'm curious because there is something very, specific about Trigone, because I was almost planning to do a video in it, and I didn't have the time, unfortunately. But it felt like... You can talk about it now? Yeah, yeah, no, no. Because my gauge, as just a viewer, going through comments and everything like that, a big complaint, when the series was airing, at least, not when it was finished, was people just, like, OG fans

of the original Trigone being like, this isn't like the original Trigone, this feels totally different. Vash's design is so different. Like, what are you doing? And it seemed like reading from like some of the, I guess, interviews that the creative team had done before it's released. It was almost like you were maybe expecting it in the way. Because I remember a big message was just like,

hey, this isn't the original trigon. Just leave your judgment until the series ends. Was that something that you expected, that kind of like reaction? I mean, I got the same reaction. As I told you earlier, when I first look at the concept arts and stuff. Oh, okay. So based on that, I knew that, I mean, it's a precious thing to everyone.

So how can we make something precious and create something, another precious thing? Right, right. So it's not to overwrite that preciousness. It's create something even more precious on the side of it. Okay. So we're very closely doing meetings with the promotion team, the marketing, the marketing, team for the trial and for we couldn't do it for global messaging but for whatever we had hands on we tried to be very specific about what language to use what words to use right what tone to use

okay i know some a lot of things were under wide interpretation but we tried to make sure limit that interpretation as much as possible so that you wouldn't like step on the toes of the original in a sense right i was gonna ask a question actually where you kind of just touched on a little bit was which is the messaging between the global and Japanese audience. How do you normally kind of navigate the worldwide audience versus the Japanese market? Is that like what kind of conscious differences or any slight changes do you do depending on the cultures? That's really hard. I never really put it into words myself.

I use my senses to really navigate. Yeah, obviously you're a very unique background being able to speak for in English and Japanese. So you're probably a bit more in terms. tune with both sides, whereas I imagine a lot of Japan, it's kind of like they're very much focused on Japan and worry about the rest of the war. They'll get it when they get it. I don't see race. You mentioned that you would read Twitter. Like, is it English Twitter or Japanese Twitter or both? Both, yeah. Is there a big difference in vibe or response to try a gun? First of all, Twitter culture between languages is different. Yeah, of course, of course. So, I mean, depending on how fans enjoy it,

So are you a cosplayer? Are you a fan artist? I mean, just by that, people, how they enjoy is different. So I really want to be careful about how I face each group of communities. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What do you think is the biggest vibe difference between, let's say, the Japanese Twitter side of the response and the Western international side? I mean, Japan has a culture.

I mean, if you go to movie theaters, people don't clap at the movies. Where in America, where we clap at movies, I mean, though there's not directors or anything. Yeah, yeah. I enjoyed that movie. I want to clap. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

But Japan, they enjoyed it, but they just quietly walk out. So that kind of culture is also reflected on Twitter. So not necessarily people, people like and retweet, but they won't comment. Right. So I really want people to comment because I see how more exact the reaction is instead of just that liking. How did you like it? Yeah. Is what really matters to me.

Yeah. I'm the opposite. I wish they were to comment last. I'm like, I'm like, God. You said that, delete that. I'm kidding, I'm kidding. Be careful what you wish for. I'm kidding, I'm kidding, I'm kidding.

It's like, go back, go back. Fuck around and find out. Yeah, because like, I guess that is another thing I notice as well is that like a very common, like cinema trait in Japan as opposed to the West is that in Japan, they stay until the end of the credits. Oh my God, yeah, I'm always that awkward guy who's like, right, I'm leaving, I'm not saying for this.

I'm watching the red. But I guess that's like, that also shows that like, I guess like in general, maybe this is a stereotype, I don't know, but like, I guess like, the Japanese audience cares about like, the people that like went into like working behind it. They're like, oh, okay, I love this show so much. I wanna know who was responsible for it all.

Whereas maybe in the West, of course there are people who are interested in that, but maybe not, it's not the general consensus, perhaps. There's a higher intensity, I think, from what I've seen. What do you mean? Good end about. Yeah, right, right.

When they love something, they love saying, and when they aren't happy about it, they, especially in the anonymous forums, love to complain. Two chain goes off. Yeah. Because do you do a lot of like Japanese events at all in like terms of promotions? Because I know you go to like a lot of American conventions.

You're at AX last year, right? Yeah. Yeah. Do you do the same kind of like promotion on the Japanese side of things as well? Yes, I'm responsible for all that. For orange side. Okay. So we work with the production committee side to get that done.

I've always wondered when, when anime studios go to like an anime convention. Is it purely just for promotion? Like what do they normally kind of like what is the point? Strip clubs. And strip clubs. Research actually. Thank you very much. Is it like because I'm very curious.

If you're a voice writer so you go to it, you know, you can sign sign. You can make some money. But like I assume for studios it's, there's got to be something else because like, you know, conventions aren't that profitable, I imagine. So for my, my objective is inspiration. Oh, okay. Because so for meeting their fans, there's not, I mean, Japan, there's not too many events that you can meet your fans.

That's true. Right. So, I mean, if you're a director, you might meet it. If your character design, you might meet it. But if you're animator, you don't mind not meet your fans. Right. So I want people to more meet their fans. And who are they?

So where do they come from? Where are they going? Is the question I always asked too. Yeah. So are you from this area? Are you from other? Did you travel here? Right.

Those kind of things really matter to. Then also, the culture. So by going to that location, I mean, feel that culture yeah i mean that really matters where we're m is a global medium so it really matters that you get inspired by so many things do you feel like there's been more of uh spotlight put on like the international audience in the time you've been working in the anime industry yeah i mean the business has heavily skewed to the international oh really so i wish um more more companies will focus a lot more on the global strategy.

Do you feel like that's only gonna grow, like the focus on the international side? I feel like it has to. Well, because I remember you did an interview it Lover, yeah. And the guy was like, I don't even know, we had an international audience. I think he was also jokes.

Oh, was he really? He was like, I don't know. Yeah, in a rare display of Japanese facetiousness. He was actually just being facetious. I've never heard Japanese man be sarcastic. It was funny because, No, it was funny you say that because so many people in the comments of that video said the same thing.

They thought he was being 100% serious, but no, he was just joking. Yeah, like I think they're fully aware that yes, a big majority of their like audience is international. And like, you know, they're not gonna necessarily like pertain to that audience 100% obviously, right? Because, you know, domestic is first priority. But like, I think at this point with how much anime is grown,

I think it's pretty hard to avoid. Well, yeah, there's always that conversation that goes on online about how people are like, no, they only make anime for Japan. They don't care about other countries and when they're making it, but I suppose if it's heavily skewed for an international market,

then I mean, that argument doesn't really hold any water. Yeah, I think there's still like, I don't know, you can confirm on this, but I guess like they still, they do care about the international audience, but I guess it's not like first priority for a lot of studios, right? I mean, I think it's more that a lot of the words,

workforce won't understand. Of course, yeah. I mean, they could say they're understanding. They could look at marketing data and say, oh, we understand it. But they don't understand because they're never from there. Right. I mean, America. I spent decades on both sides.

So I get the feel, but everyone just maybe to have a tour to America for California. Yeah. So I guess that's like a reason why you send these like staff to like L.A. And be more experience, more inspiring. I never thought about it. Yeah. I'm trying to get away from. I feel like I'm in America all the two.

I need to stop listening to America. But I guess from a Japanese perspective, right, you wouldn't inherently get a lot of experience with foreign countries. And I suppose getting more in tune with the global world is, I mean, it's, you know, it's extremely fresh. Traveling, some people might not even travel

on our team. So they just work at home, yeah. They always like, other Japanese staff members always shocked or surprised when they see, like the international fan reaction when they go to a convention like anime Expo or you just went to Sakharicon as well, right? So we just started sending people to, because COVID we couldn't do it.

Yeah. And I joined five years ago, so that's the goal I want to do. But now that we have Trigon Stampede, we're doing the tour. So, I mean, director and my partner and producer was experience. So next month, I'm taking my animators to another con. Right. So I want to keep on doing this to make sure that our team are more rich and experience. Oh, okay.

Yeah. That's such a cool way of looking at it. Yeah, very cool. Other than just get back to animating. What are you doing? I mean, you're gonna see sunlight. It's like, all right, we've taken you to the strip club back to animating, come on.

You're telling me the secret to Studio Orange? If that's what they want, I might consider. I'm not comfortable in there. I'm just, I'm just imagine a team of Japanese animators in like the dingiest, grossest strip club in like Ohio. Okay, so in Vancouver, my director wanted to do go to this street that's very, it looks, I'm like, I can't not walk in that street.

I look like a tourier. I have my jacket by my side, backfast. I'm like, well, like, both my hands are tied up. I can't walk in that street. Okay, give me a moment. I put my back pound and zip it up, zip it up. And like, put my fans. I'm like, okay, I'm ready.

Hands ready. I'm ready. So like, so you're saying the secret to Studio Orange, is your staff members touch grass. That is, holy shit. Going outside is the secret this entire time. God damn. Basement dwellers who were like hoping to join the anime community

you're like, no, not like this. This is not what I wanted. Have I to have a holistic world? No, this is not what I wanted. I have to travel. Where do you take your staff members if you want to show them your like American international culture?

Where'd you take them? Where'd you take them? I mean, every city is different. So I mean, I would love to take every single city. What's your favorite city? My favorite city? Well, I mean, I grew up in L.A., so I was saying L.A., but until I went to Seattle. Oh, Seattle's saying.

I was so amazed that Seattle. Do you want them to have like a quintessential American experience? You're like, let's go to the gun range. Let's go to Denny's, a real Denny's. Let's go to Ihoff. Let's just have like, let's just go full American. Yeah. Oh, my God.

If that is the cultural shock experience for them, they should do that. You just like, see the calories? You're hitting money. I mean, if it creates culture shock, they should go to Yoshinoa in America. Oh, no. It's totally different. That's so bad.

Only time I say no is if they want to say, I want to eat McDonald's. I mean, like, McDonald's is not that much of a culture shot. So go somewhere else. I was, it was a culture shock to my system. I think my body fought back when I had the McDonald's in America. I was like, this can't be it. Wow, how.

I just love to imagine Japanese people going to McDonald's and the US being like, wait, it's gross. Actually, you know the biggest culture shock in terms of like, when I came to Japan? It was that the KFC didn't have gravy. I was like that just doesn't seem right. That feels like a fundamental mess up.

And the courts law is not sweet. Yeah, yeah. It's like lettuce and carrots. And I'm like, what the fuck is this? KFC doesn't have gravy. I feel like that's like everything. That's like McDonald's and I have like buns. You know what I mean?

It's like what? with this the court, sorry, I'm, you know what makes sense. No, no, no, no. I agree. I agree with everything you say. It's wrong, I agree, I agree, which is rare for me in. It's very rare. What is someone like the biggest culture shocks that your staff members have gone through?

I mean, going to that shady place was one thing last weekend. That was last weekend. I mean, they just come back, scars. Yeah, I think one thing that a lot of Japanese people I wrote to when they've been to California is like, the homelessness, they're always like, oh my God. like this is insane.

The Vancouver's part was really more than that. Oh, Vancouver's pretty bad too. Hey, there was a guy with butt naked right there. Wait, where were you? I mean, yesterday he was a bad Monday naked too.

Oh, God. When I was there, it was too cold to do that. Extremities would have been frozen off if he did that. I recognize those cheeks. It's the same guy. It's the same butt naked guy every day.

So when you Since you're from L.A., where'd you normally take, where do you normally take people to show them to show them L.A. Oh. Skidra? No, I can't remember anymore. It's got to be right. I mean, when I used to staff at M Expo,

my radio turned on once and like the one volunteer was Japanese. He wasn't from local. Right. I'm in a place called, uh, what do you got? Compton. No, that's, that's, that's, I'm like, get that's a New York. Right. No, Compton is in California.

Is it? Yeah. Oh my God, really? Why don't think it's a new one? Compton, I mean, back then, I don't know how it is right now because I haven't been there. But don't stop that stop late, it was the thing. Oh, right. Yeah. Can you imagine a Japanese guy in Compton?

Oh my God. It's like, you shouldn't be here. You were in the wrong neighborhood. Wrong neighborhood. Oh, my God. It's a long way from Tokyo. I don't believe that. It's unfortunate that I think now in LA, like,

Skid Row is right next to Tokyo, a little Tokyo. And so it's like, a lot of the time during the convention, people are up around that part. It's like, no, don't go there. Yeah. But right away. And don't walk around too much. And it's nice to the art district as well.

Yeah. Sandwich between. Very sketchy. I mean, Naito loves American toys. So we want to, uh, frankincons. There's a place called Franken sons where all these, um, toy sellers gather in this storage. You know, this is like a small con right there.

Like a flea market type of thing? Oh, okay. I want to see storage wars, Japan version now. That's on my mind. I just thought about that. I mean, they won't happen because no one owns a storage unit.

There's loads of storage units in Japan, but I don't think they auction them off there when they, no, no. People just, they just use them, man. Yeah, or they just demolish everything when they don't pay the bills or something. Repo man comes in, takes everything.

Probably. Yeah. So what's like the, What's like the final goal of CD Orange? What is like, what are you guys working towards in terms of your studio? World domination. Oh, hell yeah, man.

That's what I like to hear. That's what I like to hear. You mentioned how a lot of the animators, you know, initially wanted to get into gaming. Is there a very potential we see Studio Orange game or something along those lines? I mean, for traveling, I definitely want to do some kind of game and talking to a couple companies.

So we'll see what comes through. That'd be so sick. What about video games? adaptations. Um, that's definitely something, I mean, one of the projects that we always talk about too. Oh, hell yeah. Is there like one video game you really want to see

being turned into an anime, regardless of if it's like done by Orange or not? Yeah. That you think would be like- Unless you're working on it now. Unless you're working on it now. I'm not all. It could be like a personal pick as well, but.

It's been so long since I played a lot of video games. Oh, I wish I want, I want to be turned into an anime somehow. No, no, no, no, I don't want to work on doom. Yeah, because you know, I don't want to work on Doom. Because you know that... Doom is great as it is. But I want it to be crazy. God and Bluts every...

I don't know if I... I think like a Dark Souls could work. I mean, it's already inspired from the likes of berserk anyway, right? So it already has that kind of... It passes the vibe check of potential anime. Yeah. I mean, when I always think about adapting anime,

what kind of new values can I bring to that community? Right, right, right. So, like, my recent game, I was really gone into Elder Ring. Oh, spent 300 hours in that world, Just mesmerized by every single these. I'm jumping against the walls. These guys still haven't played it yet.

You believe it? Yeah, I know. You're only the 5,000th person who's told us. Everyone, Elton Ring is amazing. It's such a great. I'm just not prepared to give up two weeks of my life. It's one month. It's one.

Oh, yeah, yeah. It's 300 hours here. That's on the lower-a-thous-Ring. You streamed it, okay? Yeah, I, you know, you got your mileage out of that. I'm probably not gonna stream it. No, like, it's a month out of my life. game has allowed you to have the experience of like hearing operatic music with a giant sword

slamming down on some monster and seeing it buckle. That's so cool. Everything's so cool. Do you think a guilty gear would be a good anime even though that's already kind of like anime S? I mean they make their own anime too. So I mean those are things I never imagine really So you think that because it's so close to anime already that there's no let's say value in getting like a an anime adaptation. I mean, it's more my own imagination. So if I can imagine there's a new value to add. So I just don't have that piece to consider.

So if their team is like, oh, this will be an amazing combination. Yeah. I'm like, I mean, like, I could be amazed by that. So yeah. I'm curious, did you watch, did you watch Arcane? Yes. What did you think of that as an industry, you know, an industry veteran that works in 3D animation? Because watching Arcane, that, that blew my mind.

a way in terms of what they were doing with their own information like like do you do you think do you think studio orange is or could get to that level so i um as of the creativeness of our CEO right we can I believe right but we are not ready to um that could be money or system or the amount of people we have yeah we are not ready but one day i'm going to get to that magnitude is definitely something I swore one that when I saw Arcane because it's such amazing. It's so good. Such a catchy song too.

It's in my head all the time. Get out. And season two, I think, got announced recently. Yeah, season two got announced. In terms of like animation outside of Japanese anime, is there any other shows or movies like Arcane that you guys get inspired by? Because I'm curious because, you know,

aside from Arcane, And there was like into the spider verse recently, which was very, very impressive. And then there's the upcoming Scott Pilgrim anime right? Yeah, yeah. And Puss and Boots too, which I've heard. Which I've heard was incredible. Do you guys ever draw reference from like American animation at all?

As a studio level, we're not really. Individual level, definitely everyone's watching so many things. Right. Like for example, our CEO wants to, if even possible, he wants to do Tom and Jerry one day. So that's something completely different style from what we do right now. Right.

But we see that if he's to do it, we are able to do something amazing. Right, right. Because I think, like, one thing is, like, technology is always evolving as we've, as we've already discussed. I was wondering how much you guys put focus in just the general technology of, like, what other studios are using and doing in terms of just the animation, animation process in general? Or is it all kind of, like, in-house kind of thing? I mean, a lot of the technology we develop It's in-house Whenever the technology is available on the market

We try to test it and see How we can implement as our own Right, right But in the sense, a lot of the advancement Is done outside of Japan So that's why we refer to a lot To the other studios outside Japan Right, okay, okay

Do you guys ever think you're going to do a mecca? I want to see Studio Orange tackle a mega show I mean, we came from a mecca So, and our animators love mecca So look forward to Is there a single animator that doesn't like Mecca? I feel like that's the baseline criteria to be an animator.

It's like, do you like giant robots fighting? You can be an animator. Yeah. Because you guys haven't. So go ahead. Yeah, we haven't had, I mean, Gundams going on right now. But other Mecca's been absent for a while.

So it's amazing to have a. I mean, I feel like Gundams always, Gundam has always been like the strong IP that will go through the end of anime. Yeah, it's kind of like the evergreen mecca, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, period there's always gonna be a fan base for it. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

No, I would love to see Studio Orange tackle war, mecca. Hopefully, hopefully in the future. Plus. Well, I guess, do you have any final words from Studio Orange that you'd like to let the audience know or get them excited for? Okay, I mean, definitely Trigun, Stampede. We're working on the final phase now.

What that entails will be revealed as we move on to more comfortable time to announce. Right. And right now we're working on Idolish 7, which Idol anime, but this actually, even if you don't watch Idol anime, it's going to be something amazing. Okay. I do not watch Adela anime. I do. But if it's made by Orange, I am awake. You guys do something new every time.

I don't think you've tackled the same type of show. No. Yeah. But yeah, thank you very much for coming on. Yeah, thank you very much for having me. A lot more introspective. Yeah, we love so much. More importantly on anime and how it's made.

Yeah, yeah. You guys were my first post podcast, so. Yeah, let's go. Hell yeah. Is there anything you want to shout out? You have social media or anything like that? Yeah, the orange Twitter. Yeah, I mean, Orange has,

Orange and myself have a Twitter account. Orange is CG underscore, uh, orange. Orange underscore E-N, I think. We gotta re-end that name. We gotta, we gotta re-work. Yeah. We'll leave it in the description.

We'll leave it in the description, no worry. But yeah, for myself, I'm, it's Crazy Nave. So. Hell yeah. Yeah, how much for coming on. Pretty appreciate it. Hey, look at all these patrons though. These are all the people who support the show.

Hopefully they're orange supporters as well. And who's your favorite patron? Point to which one? Point somewhere on screen. They're on the screen right now. Oh, really? Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

You see all this guy. Oh, hell yeah. Lucky you. And hey, if you like to support the show, then go over to our Patreon, patreon.com slash trash taste. Also follow us on Twitter, send us some memes on the subredder and if you hate our face, listen to us on Spotify. And now, so thank you once again for coming on show.

Thank you very much. Yeah, thanks guys for watching and we'll see you next week. Bye.