TRASHFUTURE - A QALY For Your Thoughts feat. Andy and Sean

Episode Date: April 7, 2020

It's a Trash-a-Fada crossover extravaganza! We had a delightful discussion with Andy and Sean about labour organising at the end of the world, and then we venture back into the mind of Toby Young as he weighs the lives of the British public against a feather and decides if they live or die to appease the great and powerful Economy. If you want access to our Patreon bonus episodes and powerful Discord server, sign up here: https://www.patreon.com/trashfuture If you want one of our *fine* new shirts, designed by Matt Lubchansky, then e-mail trashfuturepodcast [at] gmail [dot] com. £15 for patrons, £20 for non-patrons, plus shipping. *WEB DESIGN ALERT* Tom Allen is a friend of the show (and the designer behind GYDS.com). If you need web design help, reach out to him here:  https://www.tomallen.media/ 

So I'm currently living at my mums at the moment and my mum being a mum listens to Mum Radio, right? Which if you're not familiar with BBC Radio 2, it's Mum Radio. They play old songs and they play like new songs which are deemed sanitary enough for mums, like country music or whatever. Now there's a radio show on in the afternoons called Jeremy Vine, which is a British talk radio show hosted by the eponymous Jeremy Vine, where he just has like, I've encountered this before but I've never been exposed to it on such a like, long timeline. And he just has like, absolutely deranged phonins, which of course at the moment are even more deranged than normal. Like he was inviting joggers and dog walkers to phone in his show and argue with each other over

who should give who more space on the pavement as part of social distancing. Dog walkers were phoning in to complain that they had been breathed heavily on by joggers who were running past. It's all like, deeply normal. But then yesterday or the day before, he had some expert on and they were talking about basically how we're running out of ventilators and at some point doctors might have to start deciding whose lives to save, right? And so then he goes like, well, one method that has been put forward is that we should save the lives of the people who are the most useful. Like if you know, if someone's a doctor, we should save their life first. And he's like, but now we're getting to the point where a hospital cleaner is looking more useful

than a chief executive. And then there was just this really long pause as I imagined all the suburban mums slowly becoming Maoists. Suburban mums hold up half the sky. Yeah, exactly. And I did a viral tweet about it and Jeremy started replying to me. And you know what? Maybe you'll come on the podcast. Who knows? Inshallah. Maybe. Hey, you know what? Jeremy Vine, come on the podcast and tell everyone they need to build pig iron smelters in their gardens. Why not? Hello and welcome back to this episode of TF. It's the free one. You know what it is. We're here with Sean and Andy from the Antifa to podcast. It's me, Milo and Alice. How are you guys doing?

Excellent. We're doing great. We are corona casting from the Q zone. Nothing bad happening over here. The Q zone is all activated when you smoke those really special cigarettes. Just entirely protected against captain trips. Just podcasting. The Q zone or the cigarettes that you buy from Bill Mitchell's special business that I'm pretty sure he's about to start. I found the best way if you want to farm likes and get some dopamine is to post a Steely Dan song and Bill Mitchell's mentions and a bunch of like fascist boomers who love gentle, like gentle adult contemporary will all just be like, yeah, Steely Dan, Hillary for prison, Steely Dan for my for my boom box. Thank you very much.

I forgot Riley that you have the gland that like makes you die when you don't get likes or attention. Riley is a golden retriever. That's why he understands Matt Hancock so well. The pineal gland is supposed to open up your consciousness to the world. Whatever gland it is that makes you into like a Twitter hungry fame psychopath is like the opposite of the pineal gland. Maybe the gonads or something. Yeah. So I was telling that bitch, my pineal gland opens up my consciousness to the world. Yeah. I was basically just like stimulating the ballsack that exists in my brain by posting Steely Dan songs under Bill Mitchell tweets. It rules as one does. Anyway, I'm glad to hear

that you guys are doing well in Brooklyn, the epicenter of coronavirus and ethical coronavirus landlords of Brooklyn. No, but I am. I'm once again glad to be hosting you guys. If you have not, if you're listening to this and you haven't heard the Antifada great podcast, we've been on there as a while ago. You should check it out. We were making jokes about the Lib Dems. Yeah. It was a more innocent time. As opposed to the Dem Libs, they're American cousins. Yes, of course. But so before we get into what we're going to be talking about, which is talking about some strike action, talking about doing a little bit of a reading series, which you haven't done in a while,

I just want to like applaud UK journalism as an institution for finally being willing to criticize the conservative government for its many catastrophic and manifold failures around testing anyone for coronavirus. All it took was thousands of preventable deaths. That's it. And all it took was thousands of preventable deaths that could also apply to journalists. Like the moment it was something that you can also die of when you're on the Guardian masthead, it's there on like that. As soon as it turned out that you could get it from licking boots, they were fucking on the case. You have to really really thoroughly disinfect the boot first. So even the Murdoch press, even the Murdoch press, the Times, the the day and the Daily Mail and

stuff, like they've actually like come out against the government for its failure to test. The only news institution still defending the government by cutting away to a rather report when Matt Hancock was about to be grilled by a journalist on why he hasn't tested anyone is the BBC. They're the only government loyalists left. And you know what? We salute them. That's neutrality. No, actually, I hear there's I hear there's one magazine left. Oh, we will get to it. Come too later. So yeah, Sean and Andy, just for your identification, literally every single columnist who has defended like this government's failure to like institute proper testing

to stand up enough enough ventilators quickly enough to voluntarily opt out of a European wide ventilator purchasing scheme because we missed this email. Yeah, who has also been all of these journalists who have just like defended the government from scrutiny by the public. Wouldn't you know it? They're the same people who said going to war in Iraq was necessary. What are the odds? That's interesting because in the United States, all the journalists and pundits and political figures who are responsible for, you know, tens of thousands of American deaths and millions of Iraqi deaths, they're completely out of the picture now that we just wiped them out with the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, and they have no influence whatsoever anymore.

Okay, but to play devil's advocate here, if they had said and pushed for more testing or for there to not be an Iraq war and then those and then there was no Iraq war and then we had tested people and we had prevented the coronavirus from spreading, no one would ever know and people would just be mad at them for preventing the Iraq war, which we all thought was going to be fun and having a stay inside when the coronavirus hadn't spread yet. So it's better for a journalist to support the bad thing and then retract later than to prevent the bad thing from happening. Yeah, that's gross. What about an alternate reality where we're really owned because like Iraq is now like incredibly fascist and rules the entire world and we're like, damn, should have

done that Iraq war. Maybe Saddam was the new Hitler. The past party trash future is such a strong bit. It's exactly the same, but we all have massive moustaches. We're wearing a lot of medals. Yeah, it's like, if Saddam nuked us, we wouldn't be in quarantine right now. So yeah about that. It's it's what you're talking about is the man in the high tacky marble mansion, but also the interesting thing is like this doesn't track with like whether or not they were like an anti-corban centrist because like regardless of what you think of Marina Hyde, she's been on the right side of both these issues. So it's a different related mania that like they're just people who are addicted to being wrong with a huge fucking body count

and it's a real privilege to be able to interact with them on a daily basis and just have to stomach their thin skinned unwillingness to accept criticism. It's just the eternal sticky note of always do opposite of what Aronovich says, isn't it? It's been a really sad day for them though because it's Jeremy Corbyn's last day in office and they because they were too busy criticizing the government, they didn't have time for one last Jeremy Corbyn. It's true. It kind of like passed without without note. It's very funny. It's like, oh, this, this, this like Maoist threat to the free world is just like gone. They're just like, oh, okay. What if Jeremy Corbyn wanted to nationalize the virus? You joke, but there were a lot of people who were saying, oh,

I bet Jeremy Corbyn would want to hear both sides of the coronavirus. It's like, why the fuck are you paid to money to think and write? I wouldn't trust you with a pencil coronavirus on trial. Hey, Jeremy Corbyn probably wants the coronavirus to be prime minister in my opinion. Jeremy Corbyn RIP. You know what? Give it a chance. I want to talk about this. Mostly I want to talk about how the coronavirus has resulted in or at least been the precipitating incident of a wave of different kinds of strike action in the UK. We've had cleaners doing a strike action in Lewisham in Lewisham hospital because they're just not being paid like at all. Like they were just payment was being held strike territory there.

I mean, it's pretty fucked up that the entire British bourgeoisie just signed on to. Yes, we will clap for the NHS and doctors and nurses, but not contract cleaners. This clap is not for you. They had to like say that aloud into a megaphone before the clap. Exactly. You actually clap in a morse code which tells you who it excludes. Yeah, we've been clapping to like applaud the health system, not raising their wages or anything, but because we're cops and we're like a nation of cops, like your local area Facebook is now like someone is keeping a tally on which streets have like done well on clapping. That sucks so bad. Good thing you're out from under the thumb of that tyrannical EU, huh? Yeah, thank goodness. Oh God, Britain is like the

worst kind of hell. Like small town Britain where like there's like a local busy body who's like the fucking gal lighter of the neighborhood who goes around deciding if you're patriotic enough. Oh man, it's intense. I would live in a Muslim no-go zone any day of the week over those motherfuckers. Over the fucking like Eastbourne local Facebook thing that's like looks like this street hasn't been clapping very much. I bet they voted for Jeremy Corbyn. Let's all go out on the street at 11am and do aerobics. No, thank you. But yeah, so that's what's been going on. There have been waves and waves of people clapping for the NHS who probably voted to destroy it. So thank you very much for your vibes because that's all that counts politically, evidently. And this is more,

Sean and Andy, this is more your turf. There has been revolts around the tech industry as well. I'm looking at specifically at people who are in like precarious contracts with companies like Instacart who are now on strike indefinitely until they get more physical and financial protection from the grocery delivery platform. And at Amazon where employees in like 10 Amazon warehouses across the country have tested positive for COVID. And so workers in New York are now walking out to demand the company do more to protect them, which is very cool. You know you're in a period of heightened militancy when at the Amazon warehouse on Staten Island, some guy named like Bobby Two Eyes Vafangul decided to like come together with his coworkers to be like, you know what, we got no

mass fucking, we're going on strike. It's a beautiful thing. I'm having a whack up a ghoul as a mass. I was struck very much by the video of the one Amazon guy on strike who was arguing entirely correctly, but very funnily also that packages of dildos are not essential items. He got this, I got this mask from a guy. He said he was an interior decorator, but his house looked like shit. For the first time in American history, the Italian Americans won't be breaking the strike. Yes. Reconnecting with those sopranos roots, but that's not all. I want to talk mostly about Amazon, but also it looks like the Northeastern Regional Council of Carpenters have announced a strike

against nonessential construction work sites starting on Monday as well. So like this is not just isolated to a couple of companies. It's not just isolated to high demand industries. It's not general yet, but there are multiple epicenters of not just labor strikes, but rent strikes also. And as you guys talk about this all the time, I kind of wonder if you could unpack that for us. Well, I want to address the District Council of Carpenters situation because I am a union construction worker myself. And of all of the unions out there to start what could potentially be a general strike in the Boston metropolitan area based on COVID preparedness and PPE and protection. The United Brotherhood of Carpenters, that is such an incredible, incredible momentous

thing because the Carpenters are known not just in Boston, but across the United States to be maybe the most conservative of all the business unions out there. But there's this really interesting dynamic because they come out of this AFL, Samuel Gompers type right wing syndicalism, which usually is like absolutely horrible. You just explained that for our listeners. Oh, sure. I didn't want to drone on with my usual history as a weapon, but now come on, hit us, hit us. All right. Part of the reason why, and this is really kind of this is a long history, but I'll try to make it short, one of the reasons why unionism is so different and weird and often backwards in the United States is because for the majority, you know,

starting in the 1870s, 1880s, the majority of workers here who were organized tended to be very skilled workers like Carpenters, machine, you know, machinists, this and the other. And this particular very American ideology arose that was a form of syndicalism. It said that workers need to use militant direct action and self organization in order to gain what they can against the capitalist class specifically, right? It's a class struggle ideology. However, that pertains only to the people within our particular trade, within our particular industry. They didn't care about immigrant workers, if they weren't part of the union, they didn't care about migrant workers, they didn't care about semi skilled workers. This was of course, most prominent coming from Samuel

Gompers who created the American Federation of Labor. It's a very, very like sort of privatized welfare system within these particular very powerful and militant unions that is not a social unionism, it's a business unionism. So oftentimes, you know, when it comes to a minimum wage struggle, the district council of Carpenters in say New York City, we're fighting against a living wage in the city, because other workers winning a higher wage like $15 an hour was bad for the Carpenters because they couldn't give as many benefits then to potential workers coming in. It's a very backwards looking unionism, but that same tradition, yeah, that's that same tradition of right wing syndicalism means that in Boston now, when the city and the state refuse to shut

down non essential job sites, which is, you know, luxury high rises, hotels, things that absolutely aren't essential to be building right now. When they're faced with a COVID outbreak, we're going on those job sites to build shift for rich people might literally kill them and those around them. It's these sort of old old craft unions with this long tradition of militancy that can stand up and have the power to stand up and say shut it the fuck down because they've been striking for 150 years. So in this weird way, like the conservative business union is actually on the forefront now of saying, as an official union, not even as a Wildcat thing, like we will shut unsafe jobs down. Very interesting dynamic. So it's a both both mumsnets like radio listeners

in the in the UK and old old unions in the US inexplicably now Maoists. I mean, if you that was a real Chinese virus all along. No, it's just we we have to like trust the process, right? All of these people just playing the long game your mum listening to radio to playing the long game to become a Maoist now. If you want to be a materialist about it, right? If you're if you think about like what when people embrace radical politics in a lot of cases, it's because they see that they have no current way out within the confines of what's acceptable. Like I think that the one of the major reasons like this is probably not controversial that like millennial socialism is a concept

even is the fact that we're all we the defining events of our lives, the things that structured what we consider common sense are as we're essentially the Iraq war and the financial crisis. And so I think it's it's unsurprising that these like people who are relatively traditionally conservative but who've been made precarious who've been put in danger by the the world we live in and by the circumstances we live in that, of course, it's natural for them to turn towards a more radical politics, which is, you know, good. Yeah. Well, people people find themselves take it. Yeah. Asking things like what is to be done, you know, things of that nature. Like when every when every landlord gets a rent holiday and it gets a mortgage holiday rather

and every tenant is is being told they still have to pay up unless they meet like 17 different means testing criteria, you begin to ask yourself, well, what's my landlord really doing for me? The freedom that's always given to the working class is either to work or to starve. And it's been very easy to kind of paper over that. Because, you know, if you if your job really sucks and like, like if you work for Whole Foods, for instance, which also has this potential strike wave coming and Amazon buys it and lays off like a bunch of people and make your job way harder. You just have to do it because they'll just say, if you don't like it, quit go work somewhere else. Um, but now there is no somewhere else. It's like, you have to keep working and you have to risk

getting sick to do it. And you have to potentially make other people sick to do it. Or you starve. And that's just the only option being given to all these now essential workers. Like, we were just so used to making their lives harder and harder and harder. Like, and that's that's true for every essential worker job, like truckers now have to work way more hours, like a dangerous number of hours longer. And there's just no option to stop doing it because they're essential workers. And even when they're talking about striking online, the comments are all people saying, how dare you not work anymore? Even though they're saying we want to keep working, but we want hazard pay, we want sick pay. So now it's becoming so obvious to everybody that

your choice is to work or to starve to everybody who's still working, that is. And if I play devil's advocate, if there's any group of people that I want at the wheel of vehicles, which, you know, weigh 10 tons or more and like are vital to the continuance of our civilization, I want those people to be really, really sleepy. I think that's an important thing. It should be as tired as possible. We got to legalize speed for truckers. That's the only way. I keep thinking about the text messages people have been like sharing with their landlord and stuff. And it really is true. There is no hiding place for this stuff anymore. There's no more superstructure. And like you can tell because just to circle back to the media for a second,

like the only people still trying to do the superstructure stuff are the most feckless of all, the fucking BBC, everybody else. And the Democrats and labor and like Starmer's labor. Yeah, exactly. Useless, useless, peripheral people we can ignore. The Democrats, their strategy being live, laugh, love now with these blozies. Joe Biden's coronavirus strategy is like, I'm gonna, we're gonna defeat the virus together by togetherness with together by defeating the virus by coming together in order to defeat the virus. And I'm like, yeah, that's cool. That's all right. Right. It's gonna change the virus to a fight with flick knives.

No, I've been thinking, look, you know, I've been talking about this for a while. I've been, I've been thinking like intrusive thoughts hourly about the Budweiser was up commercials. We're all handling quarantine very differently. And we're all, you know, I think we that's essentially the strategy is we're all gonna say was up to one another on the phone. And that's how we're gonna beat the virus by coming together. It's the same thing with labor where they're just like, oh, when Starmer's leader, we're gonna finger wag at all of your all of your reckless spending. It's like, yeah, the only reason they're still supporting the neoliberal consensus is that they're all losers. Losers. Very nasty people, very nasty guys.

Do you have the trend in England of politicians telling us to do mutual aid? Very little. Like someone Scotland, Nicola Sturgeon did a bit of that and was like, go sign up and volunteer and stuff. But like by and large, no. And do mutual clap. Yeah. The clap is as close as it's as we've gotten to mutual aid. And even then that's mostly because we can like call the cops and ourselves for not clapping enough. Well, it's, it's, it's all the hospitals are overburdened. It's about sniffy bourgeois social, social performance like the like the coming out of your house to clap thing, right? It's about showing how because we're all in it together.

The Blitz spirit, it's really just everyone's suffering and no one's groaning about it. The queen is going to like address the nation. Yeah, it's pure. The queen is going to tell all everybody in Britain to stay hydrated. Wash your hands. She's just going to go out there and be like, I've COVID for Zynga. I want to talk a little more about Amazon because there is a lot has come out about this that Amazon has fired the lead organizer, a guy called Chris Smalls or at least one of the organizers who's now been painted as the lead in the media was fired on the basis that he was quote flouting rules around self isolation and it just so happens that he was a leading figure of

the Amazon union movement. Huh? What are the chances to be fair? Amazon have been really ahead of the curve on self isolation because each of their workers works in a little individual cage, which is a really good safety feature. So basically to start this story, the Amazon is keeping people working in tight conditions with insufficient safety gear. The same story exactly what you'd expect Amazon to be doing and it's all being defended by a bunch of former Obama administration, fucking freaks and vampires, honey. The Obama secretary is now Amazon's, I think, like SVP of public relations and doing straight union busting. Yes. And of course, they're not even good at it because they can't keep a fucking

secret. And so immediately within five minutes of Jay Carney replying to Bernie with actually he was violating the coronavirus protocols, someone who was in that meeting. And I'm not picturing a mysterious Jay Carney shaped informant here leaked to fucking everybody the minutes in which Amazon's head of legal was just like, Hey, this guy, this guy, he's not so smart. He's not so articulate. Let's smear him. And that's almost verbatim. Yes, let's let's do a, let's union bust. Anyone want to union bust? Union, union busting is when I masturbate on company time. Here is his side. He wrote this and published it in the Guardian. I think American Guardian, because the British Guardian would probably be on Jay Carney's side.

That'd be too busy with checking his genitals. I decided to start spreading awareness among the workers in the building. This is Chris Small's side, not Jay Carney's. Chris Small's. Meetings in the common areas and dozens of workers joined us to talk about their concerns. People were afraid. We went to the general manager's office to demand that the building be closed down so it could be sanitized. We wanted to be paid during the duration of that time. Another demand of ours was that people who can't go to work because of underlying health conditions be paid. Number one, Bezos has done so much for us. How dare they? So this guy who is like not that smart, not that articulate apparently just has a fairly reasonable

set of grievances here, right? He does not have a communications degree. Oh, yeah. He should have got one of those before he started talking about like, yeah. He needed the Pod Save Johns to like workshop the can you sanitize the the fucking distribution center? Can we do some bets on which one of the Pod Johns is going to end up being like a union busting CEO in the next five years? I mean, I think they all they all are going to. I'm surprised that like Pod Save America hasn't like had Jay Carney on to talk about the abuse he's received from Chris Smalls and Bernie Sanders. Let's go some credit though. They're not the young Turks. So, Alice, you mentioned this call. Here is what the lawyer actually said. We should spend the

first part of our response. Remember, this is the response to someone who's saying, hey, we don't want to die. Yeah, continue working so we don't starve, right during a global pandemic where we have been marked as essential workers. Here is what the what their response was. We should spend the first part of our response strongly laying out the case for why the organizers conduct was immoral, unacceptable and arguably illegal in detail and only then follow with the usual talking points about worker safety. Yeah, the trouble was when you organize the strike, fail to believe women. I mean, if you get a law degree and you use it to say a sentence like we should spend the first part of our response strongly laying out the case for why the organizers

conduct was immoral, unacceptable and arguably illegal in detail, then you should be absolutely disbarred by like struggling to find a way to phrase this. Also, surely they're just doing the PR person's job. So the the the Amazon, the Amazon people continue make him the most interesting part of our story and if possible make him the entire face of the entire union organizing movement. Well, you know what Amazon? Congratulations. You did it. You've made this this organizer who you have basically like publicly decided to do a smear campaign of union busting against the face of the organizing movement because everyone's seen how much you basically don't care if your workers live or die when you put them to the when you put the choice

to them to either, you know, work and don't starve but also probably die from coronavirus. I love the idea of them just making him the most interesting part of the story by just making him sound really interesting. Like, oh, did you hear these? He was the third man ever to climb Everest and he's actually read every single German published book in existence. Usually crucifying someone just makes them go away forever. Did this meeting fucking take place in the Republican National Convention castle from the Simpsons? Oh, hit me with that thunder, please. So obviously, obviously the Amazon guy did some damage control here, right?

Of course. He the lawyer said his comments were quote personal and emotional. He had a heated gaming moments. Small lawyer, small bean lawyer. Just like taking off the gaming headset and like throwing it at my mounted law degree. He's like, he's the Logan Paul apology video after the infamous Japanese hanging in. Yes, yeah. Sean and Andy, I want to throw to you guys again. What do you make of this as a union

busting tactic saying, I'm sorry, I busted a union. I've been under a lot of pressure right now at home. Yeah, it's an emotional time for all of us. Who's among us has not wanted to bust a union in this on these difficult days? Yeah, like kind of branching off what Andy was talking about before with workers now deemed essential directly facing their conditions. What's happening at Amazon and Instacart and all and Uber and all these other quote unquote gig economy jobs is the culmination of 30, 40 years of the undermining and the hollowing out of American labor law. Because remember, these workers are in these precarious positions, not just for like economic reasons, but because corporations have tried for decades and succeeded in doing things like undermine the power of the

National Labor Relations Board, which is supposed to rule on things like Jay Carney firing a guy for alleged safety violations when it's really just a union busting thing that NLRA is supposed to come in and say like, no, actually, that's illegal. You have to reinstate him. You're blocking union activity. The NLRB doesn't really do that much anymore. So Jay Carney and people like that at Amazon and elsewhere have been able to get away for so long with doing things like they did to Chris Smalls union busting in various ways that they're shocked now that the because this is in the headlines and because these workers are so needed that all of a sudden they can't get away with it like they used to. I mean, of course, Carney is like, was particularly stupid. In the minutes of

this meeting, he should have said at the end, don't don't leak the minutes of this meeting. If you say that, they can't leak it. It's like, are you a cop? You get to ask every I just do the Facebook thing. You're like, under the treaty of Rome, I do not give permission for any of my content to be shared by those like World Health Organization. I love I love that fucking like some Obama administration just fucking scumbag trying to get a DMCA takedown because he said it's actually a song that he was writing.

Whoever leaked this meeting is the third the third instance in this episode of like just somebody just turning Maoist of going Maoist mode. So a member of the board of directors. Yeah, it's kind of surprising some Amazon like a fucking attorney or something just wearing the Mao hat in the meeting. It's kind of surprising that Jay Carney is taking the heat for this because I remember maybe with this time last year, they had this like army of fake Amazon picker employees. Oh, yeah, the ambassadors. They would just respond to every comment saying, oh, that's not true. I'm a woman of color with five children and I love Amazon.

Every day I love Amazon. It's just like very fake, but I guess. But that was their strategy for everything is just like automate everything, robotize everything. If we still have to use humans in some way, just try to like gamify it as much as possible. So they stopped like thinking and acting like humans until eventually we can replace them. But now they've reached a point where it's like, well, they ran out of time, they weren't able to replace these essential workers with robots. So they have no other option than just work them to death. Because if they make things better for these workers, then they're just going to have to like stay better and they won't be able to have an excuse to place them with robots whenever

they have the chance. So they're in this awkward situation where they do like, oh, I guess you guys do have to die to work here. I don't know what else to tell you. I don't have to die to work here, but it helps. I for one think it's extremely good PR when I have employees lined up saying, I really like my job at Amazon. I do not understand the grievances of the other workers. I would also like to clarify that my family are not being held against their will. Well, also, it's like what in terms of one of the greatest assets the American labor movement has in this time of its precarity is that its enemies are like the Jay Carney's of the world. Yeah, they are so dumb.

Just massive simpletons who've been tricked into thinking that they're smart by Ivy League schools and rules. Well, the tech industry in particular has been a way to either arbitrage labor or to undermine labor protections. Like you saw that with the move from cab drivers to Uber drivers, right? And they're so fucking stupid. These people are so dense and dumb and full of stupid fucking degrees that like all these libs out in Silicon Valley like Carney, who are their spokespeople, don't even realize what they've done. They think they're being efficient and innovating. They don't even realize they're not even smart enough to realize that they've fucked over millions and millions of American workers and they should probably keep

that quiet. They're proud of it. They're proud of it. Of course. They've gotten cookies for this thus far, right? Like everything that they've done in their entire lives has led them to the belief that this is a success. This is what success looks like. You should brag about that success and everyone will be very pleased with you. Listen, you people are all dinosaurs. You probably eat pizza that wasn't made in the back of the delivery van. Oh, god. Ambulance is a fucking growth. It's like this is going to be doing so well out of this. I'm going to close this section by saying one more thing that this Amazon doofus has said as their general counsel. I let my emotions draft my words and got the better of me.

That's right. It was an emotion involved union busting. No, that's literal. There's an app that translates your emotions into business actions. There's a really important underlying and historical dynamic to understand in this moment because it's not just that the contradictions as a war are becoming heightened. It's not just that tens of millions of people who are basically said that they were detritus are now considered to be essential to the working of the economy. It's not just that it's all hands on deck for those people and they're working egregious crazy hours just to keep society running. It's also a real coming to terms with the kind of labor market, the kind of economy that the United States has created over

the last 40 years or so. These precarious workers in these independent contractor or gig type jobs have been on their way to complete pennery for years and years and years and it's been getting worse. One thing, however, that gives me some hope is that and this is going to be very controversial, right? But if you look at the dynamic with these like semi or unskilled workers who are highly replaceable, who are highly mobile across the economy and geographically, it is a very, very, very similar situation to what you saw in the late 19th and early 20th century with militant social industrial unions arising similar to the industrial workers of the world. Bringing the wobblies back. It's wobbly time. So people think that the wobblies were good just

because they were militant. They think that the wobblies arrive sweet generous, you know, deus ex machina with this kind of militant communist unionism. But what the IWW reflected and why they became so popular and so powerful after 1905 was they represented workers who were similar to gig workers disposable and replaceable and highly precarious. We're talking about lumberjacks, you know, who have to move around from place to place and get a job wherever the work was possible. Most of them immigrants minors, you know, which was a very, very dangerous stay around with butter on their feet on a gigantic skillet. You're talking about long shoremen who before the growth of those unions was a very dangerous, precarious, low paying industry.

The thing that made the IWW, the IWW was that these workers who are on the margins, who are on the edges of the capitalist economy, became super central to that. And they started to realize their strength and their power. And a mobile militant industrial unionism was the way that you could take your red card from being a lumberjack in the wintertime to go pick tomatoes in the summertime and go be a longshoreman in the fall time while keeping your rights as a working class person. So I don't see any reason why except for ideology and the power of the ruling class that coming out of this gig workers could not create something that looked like a very agile and a very militant and potentially very powerful new kind of wobbly type movement right now.

We're already seeing traces of that, like groups like the IWGB. I was going to say the IWGB. Even like the IWW, the IWW itself still is like a thing and they're still trying to organize exactly those kind of precarious workers. So yeah, who can say we don't know? But that would be, yeah, I think we can see some kind of like stirrings of that. And the thing is that this is one of those weeks where decades are happening. So by the time this comes out, this will be all completely woefully out of date. And yeah. Oh, yeah. All of the unions will have like been taken in by like Enoch Powell from the moon. It'll suck. We're just going straight now. I've had a realization recently about I think why all the jobs are so shit because

so some like real heads of the show will know this. I went to business school kind of as a joke. And what I realized was the real joke was on me because business school is nonsense. But why did I spend 700 pounds on this Joker face makeup? They didn't give me anything of that high a dollar value. No, the really, the really like useful thing I learned at business school is like how insane all of the principles like the modern economy are founded on. And one of the things we were like, one of our lecturers was like a jumped up former management consultant. And she was really into like all of this like Japanese management consultancy bullshit where like, you take like a basic concept like not

wasting shit and then give it a Japanese name and charge people like $400 an hour to explain it to them. Anyway, and so but what's happened with all these kind of companies have been introducing all this like Japanese don't waste anything shit that kind of works in Japan because the Japanese are really organized. But in the West just makes everything shitty. They're just like, oh, well, having loads of workers is waste. So we're just going to fire like 40% of the workers and make the rest of the workers do all the jobs. And also having any inventory is waste. So we're not going to keep any inventory. And then if there's any spikes in demand, I guess we're in a crisis. And like you just lessen your workforce, get the coronavirus is exactly like that Japanese thing

where you break the cup and then you solder it back together. Well, I think the great analog to that is we're seeing the results of the United States healthcare system where we're doing we've been doing just in time medicine for the last 20 years with no reserves of ventilators or doctors or nurses or like creeping privatization in the UK where we have like 30 ventilators that we just built and the BBC Newsreader kind of had a panic attack live on the air when she realized it said 30 and not 30,000. That was so funny. Yeah, she's like, hang on, sorry, am I am my eyes deceiving me? And then she's like, oh, wait a minute. No, of course, the government said 30. The BBC rules so much. If you wanted to know what it's like to sit through like a state

broadcasting and a really shit dictatorship, that's exactly what it is right now. She did the BBC Newsreader just going, wait, does that say 30 and then just Swam Lake comes on the TV? Here's the thing. I want to, with the time we have left, I'd like to move on to doing something we haven't done in a while. We are about to do a reading of an article by Toby Young. Everybody's favorite, everybody's favorite free school moron. The guy who, if you'll remember, got fired from his like university industry sinecure because he couldn't stop like tweeting about like wanting to fuck people in the ass. And like secret eugenics meetings, which sounds much cooler, but not cooler, but like more

aesthetically evil than it probably was, where it was just a bunch of like sad, bold nerds in a room together being like, actually, I think my brain pattern's quite good. I would describe Toby Young, if you're not familiar with him, as a samurai of the mind. He truly has one of the most powerful brains to ever be created. There is nothing he won't think there is no, like the one thing I'll always say about Toby Young, which is amazing, is that whenever he's in the news for any reason and they contact his friends for like comment, they all go on the record, but only to say I am not friends with Toby Young. You know what Toby Young is? You know those memes where there's like the guy with the like

giant brain that's like drawn into a shape? The shape there is like the samurai helmet with the horns. I don't know what Toby Young sounds like, but he looks like a Mark Prok's character. Oh, I can do Toby Young. Well, the thing that you've got to bear in mind with this kind of measure is that how big will it make your dick? So he has written this article in a new like apolitical commentary magazine that has run called The Critic. Yeah, the ISIS to unheard al-Qaeda. It has run columns recently, including the title, Twitter trolls disprove the myth of intrinsic goodness. A masterful tube stone for a true tutor, bruiser, and men beware women.

So the creators of this magazine saw Quillette and were like, wait, hold my beer. Yes. Yes. Well, they've only just discovered the women be shopping and they need to warn you. What if we did Quillette, but with like just less mask offness and more of just every answer every problem being community. Yeah, it's it's simp Quillette. So of course, Toby Young has written an article entitled has the government overreacted to the coronavirus crisis. Yeah, sure. Why not? Why cool? You could say have the police overreacted to the coronavirus crisis by just inventing new laws by which to detain people. Sure, has the Home Office overreacted to the coronavirus crisis by putting immigrants in

detention centers where they're almost certain to get coronavirus? Absolutely. But has the government overreacted to the coronavirus crisis by like stopping the economy for a little while and giving people free money? Toby Young is going to say yes. It's been very bad with the police because previously I used to get away with saying I was English by coughing, as I said it, but now that only makes things worse. So let's let's begin the article. Like a growing number of people, I'm beginning to suspect the government has overreacted to the coronavirus crisis. How much growing growing number of divorced people? So here's the thing. That's good writing. If you pose a question in the headline,

you should answer it in the first line. Has the government overreacted to the coronavirus crisis? Yes. Well, not even not even yes, but many people are saying it's being talked about more and more. I think I think it's empirically a shrinking number because for like for months, people thought it wasn't a big deal. And now people are beginning to realize it is. So how can that be changing? Listen, a lot of people are saying it, beautiful people, very smooth heads. Coronavirus response no longer hot. Toby Young experiences the world purely in relation to Toby Young. So he has his brain resets every morning. The number of voices in his head are growing by

the day. And they all have the same irritating voice. Okay. He surveyed one person Toby Young and it returned a result of one hundred percent. So if even if we accept the statistical modeling of the team at Imperial College spending three hundred and fifty billion pounds to prolong the lives of just a few hundred thousand mostly old people is an irresponsible use of taxpayer money. There is are a demon right at the top. You hundred thousand a few hundred thousand mostly elderly. Only a few hundred thousand. That mostly does a lot of work and a few hundred thousand like three or a mere. He has a deeply hermangering at his Nuremberg trial vibe. No, you know what it is? It's Dr. Strangelove. I'm not saying that we won't get our hair

must but I'm talking 10, 20 million tops. It's funny because we're going to start measuring coronavirus deaths literally in mega deaths. What mega death was created for which is a million deaths. We haven't started using that sort of quantitative shit since the Cold War. But now we're going to be starting talking about Corona mega deaths. We're back baby. I thought we were going to use the banned mega deaths. I don't know how many people are in that but I figured it might not be as convenient a unit. So let's get into the article where Toby Young basically says using taxpayers money to preserve the lives of taxpayers shocking. That may sound cold hearted. No, it sounds gum as hell. But this isn't a straightforward trade

off between public health and economic health because people are killed by economic downturns just as surely as they are by pandemics. What are we going to do about that Toby? Must preserve line. It's the downturn that does it. No, no, none of the relationships that exist around the context of the downturn. Nope. When GDP goes down, people just drop dead for no reason. Wait, is Toby Young free market libertarian just advocating for a planned economy here because economic downturns kill people? The only way as we know to keep economic crisis from happening is abolishing capitalism. So he's clearly, he's clearly on it.

Once the Maoist count up to four. Toby Young just thinks that under normal circumstances, the main deaths are when the economy crashes and just like stock brokers jump out of their windows. That's it. Those guys were my friends. There's only two ways to die in the Toby Young Mind Palace. It's stockbroker jumping out of window or regrettable old person. Toby can only say that dead people are his friends, otherwise it's liable. I also like the thing he's doing here as well, which is like, yeah, that's it. You couldn't possibly have done anything else about it. Everything had to happen the way that it did. No other choices could have been made.

He's basically a Calvinist without being too dumb to realize it. Anyway, he goes into some like two pages worth of calculations, which is basically just scholasticism, angels dancing on the head of a pin shit. Yeah, wheeling out my actuarial tables here to look at exactly how many thousands of old people will die. Yeah. If there's one thing we associate Toby Young with, it's mathematical and statistical mastery. So he says, at the simplest, the government has valued every human life at one million five hundred and twenty one thousand seven hundred and forty pounds, which is three hundred and fifty billion divided by two hundred and thirty thousand,

the amount of people that we're trying to save by locking down. Showing you're walking very good, Toby. Yeah, I also love it. Yeah, it's you. It doesn't seem ridiculous to like have that forty in there. Like what it's like the fact that it is as precise to the pound as seven hundred and forty should show you that measuring human life with a currency is just not a concept that works. Just knock off the forty and then you have like a human life plus you can get FIFA. This this is already it has to turn like millions of people into Chris Arthur value form theorists with how perverted and twisted it is that this commodity logic is inserted into the worth of a human life. This article has to create thousands or the hundreds of thousands of left

goms. Just the armchair growing around me as I read by this logic, there is a certain monetary value that would be worth the obliteration of all life on earth. Otherwise, at some point, you have to decide that no value of money is going to be worth this particular action. It contains that contradiction there at the end of it people. So seven billion multiplied by and what did he say one million five hundred twenty one thousand seven hundred forty. Yeah. So for merely one point zero six five two two E one five dollars or pounds by that point, it doesn't matter. We could just fucking just obliterate all human life. Oh, and also this is one more reason this is one more reason to make the money machine go burr

because if we can inflate the cost of a human life, these ruling class ghouls might might not be as likely to fucking get us killed. That's true. Yeah. Just just walking around the warehouse, like you have to sanitize it because if I die, you owe somebody like the universe in the abstract about a billion dollars. Literally the gods of the market. That's why Bezos was yeah. It's basically like tossing people into a volcano so the market doesn't get mad at you. Like this is one of the reasons that the movie apocalypto is probably one of the most prophetic ever made. I just love the idea of the invisible hand of the market just reaching down, but it's doing the like rubbing its fingers together to indicate money. I mean, you guys are saying you guys are

saying this is ridiculous, but the next time you're planning like a vacation to the Portuguese coast and you're trying to decide between a three and four star hotel and you're checking your bank account and be like, I kind of wish we rubbed off some more pensioners. Yeah, I could have an extra million in that easily. Harold Shipman must have been so fucking rich. So basically here's how here's the methodology he's doing. This literally is just the Venn diagram circle of Toby Young and Harold Shipman. They're old. We're going to save the health service some money. Here is the logic by which Toby Young is sort of making this calculation. He basically says, look, that each life actually ought to be valued at about half a million pounds. So about one third

of what the government currently is doing that math. I did forget about it. You're worth less than that. He does say here, now, reader, I think you're worth more than that, Winky Emoji. Yeah, the go reading this. Here's the logic that he uses. He says the National Institute for Clinical Excellence are nice places of value of up to 30,000 pounds on each quality-adjusted life year or quality. So how many qualities will the government be adding to those people whose lives would otherwise be lost to coronavirus if the lockdown hadn't been imposed? Corley was a much darker Pixar film about a little robot that has to decide who lives and who dies. Love to imagine a Logan's run future where somebody's going to off me when I get too many

qualities. But that's what it, qualities is like a common concept when you're doing economic analysis of social policy. It's regret, it's like regrettable it exists, but it's not something Toby Young has invented. It's the thing that Sarah Palin called death panels, right? If you have to ration how much you're spending on care, then eventually you have to be like, this thing costs too much for too little benefit. It's not inherently sociopathic, he's just making it so. Well, basically, it's like battlefield medicine and triage is not inherently sociopathic. What's inherently sociopathic is doing it when it's not necessary to do so. Just because you have to maintain the which is Toby's favorite thing, because you

have to maintain the illusion that literally everything is currency fungible. And like this is why the concept of qualities like just gets the eugenics set so stiffed up is because it's like, well, we can decide when the state should off you because your life is you're no longer worth keeping alive. Like the fact that it's a crisis doesn't really bear on the logic of are you worth keeping alive or not? And it goes back to like at what point is it profitable to just like obliterate the earth? Yeah, and that's exactly it, right? Like they love to pretend that this is objective. The doctors, the people at Nice who'd like come up with this stuff know for a fact that it isn't. That's why you have arguments about medical, medical ethics, medical

ethics. Changing the group PM chat now. It's just a bunch of toothless guys. Just like, yo, I'm not sure this math is very ethical. But all I'm saying is that this stuff is is is mutable. It is it is not considered to be objective by any practitioner in any of the related fields. It own only a big fucking brain samurai like this could be like, oh, well, that's if that's what a human life is worth, then I simply plug that into my big calculator and there's how many old people should die. I just like to point out how I thought I I I intuited the overlap between this magazine and Quillette when we see now that qualities are a eugenicist methodology.

Oh, yeah, I was going to say you knocked it out the fucking park there. But actually, I wanted to I wanted to throw back to you guys as well just to like, again, if you if you just unpack this a little more kind of from the anti-fata labor standpoint as well. Not not necessarily from the from the labor standpoint, but I'd say from more like a sociological standpoint. What Toby Young is trying here in the UK was tried several weeks ago in the United States by pundits on like the conservative right, many libertarians, people like reason magazine, and even some liberals and many, many CEOs talking about how it's not worth the economic damage, it's not worth the quote unquote deaths that would come from an economic

downturn in order to shut the economy down. What these people are facing for the first time in their stupid fucking lives is a situation that there is no technical fix for. This isn't either or a thing because you either socially isolate people now socially distance people now. So you flatten the curve and make less step less deaths happen now, or you let the thing run its course, either which way the economy is going to shit. Do you think the US or UK or Chinese or any economy is going to be thriving? It's going to go back to quote unquote normal. If you've just got 100,000 people dropping dead every fucking day in workplaces on the streets all over the country. These people can't understand it that it's not there's no option. There's no option here between

saving the economy and saving people's lives from coronavirus. I think some of these people are also kind of prescience that the economy has thrived for forever, but especially for the last few decades on making death and the devaluation of human life very normal. Just with the creeping up of the retirement age, for example, it's normalizing more the idea that once you retire, your life no longer has any value. Or if you can't work, you're on welfare, like you're a parasite on the economy. And basically the economy, the vitality of the economy is becomes what's most important. So when people are thinking about ventilators, they're thinking about it in terms of ventilating the economy, keeping the economy breathing.

And keeping people breathing is only useful if we're talking about workers, we're talking about like who will work at a continued rate of exploitation. Because also when you're talking about keeping the economy going so people don't die, what you're actually talking about is making the continued existence of workers as like living people still profitable for the uber-wealthy. That's actually what you're talking about because when the economy contracts- How many lives are saved by us maintaining the divine rise of kings? If we lose that, then how many people might die of hopelessness that there isn't a king ordained by God? Slave owners have a direct material incentive for keeping the slaves alive

by feeding them enough and housing them and giving them clothes. Whereas capitalists, they don't care. They let the social reproduction be outsourced to outside of the workplace. Slave owners actually care about slaves because they're their property, which is literally what slave ideologists were saying in the south in the 1850s and 1860s. I'm just imagining the tweet now, like the kind of like the moral landlord, like the moral slave owner, like, well, I actually feed my slaves pretty well and I'd like to see them feed themselves that well. But you don't have to imagine that. That's literally what the argument was. That's a real guy. That's a lot of guys. That's a real guy. That was a real person. He now owns a jet ski dealership. And the analog here

about the idea that just the economy contracting is fatal for people because imagines that the economy is just some kind of God and we can appease him by throwing qualities into a fucking volcano until we get enough tokens back that say, yes, fine, you've killed enough retirees, have a wider TV. Ironically, they are killing off their own voter base. So I would I'll carry on here. Well, that's the thing. Also, Milo, they're not killing off their own voter base because their voter base is not just old people. It's wealthy older people. But it's also because like voting is done, like whatever you think of it, voting is not a thing that matters anymore. But like, I think also we can talk about,

like, I know I keep bringing this back to the press, but journalists are the stupidest people on earth. And so it's been very funny watching them be the slowest on the uptake of this. And so I forget which BBC journalist it was, but one of them said, oh, well, of course, the Conservative Party wouldn't want to like endanger elderly people because that's that's really their that's their base. It would be immensely unpopular with them. And I just I remember reading that and thinking, oh, you sweet summer child. No one will murder me because that would be illegal. So some people reading this will think, I bet Toby Young changes his tune if he gets the virus.

But in fact, I did get the virus. I became checkmate lips. I became symptomatic seven days ago. I've been bedridden ever since, and now anxiously waiting to see if the disease spreads to my lungs. But I'm 56. Now feels like a 19th century gothic novel. I anxiously wait to see if the pestilence will spread onto my lungs. The most the most Toby Young thing would be to get coronavirus in order to win a theoretical argument with lips. He says his odds are good because he has no underlying health conditions. And he's 56. So prayers up for Toby. But if the government followed my advice,

and it turns out by the time I require urgent care that the NHS Canada accommodate me, I won't regret writing this. Yeah, you will. Yes, you absolutely fucking will. No, you're right. You're right. He won't regret writing it because no one will have read it anyway. He knows that him writing this has no influence on the situation. The only people that read this is us. You know what it reminds me of is Christopher Hitchens' atheism when he was dying of being like, well, yeah, you say that you're not scared, but nobody can fucking prove you wrong once you die, right? So who gives a shit? You just been like, yeah, you just left this behind of being like,

no, actually, I was right. And then get owned immediately. Yes, I probably have at least 20 years of healthy living ahead of me. So my life is worth more than 500,000 pounds. I don't know about that. Actually, actually, you're owned because I am worthwhile. So they would have to save me because of logic. If I got the coronavirus, I would simply survive. You know, there's always like the obverse to the bourgeois ideology. And in this case, I think we need a people's quality or like a proletarian quality, which rates how much people are worth based on their class position. And in that case, Toby Young's life is worth way less than half a million. Yeah, we adjust for like number of columns written.

I love to think that Toby Young wrote this whole article and got to the bottom and then worked out and it was alarmed that his life was only worth 500,000 pounds and then went back to the bit where it said 1.5 million and just added in, but let's call it 500,000. Who's counting? What's the quality between friends? Yeah, I love to like get the coronavirus and have a doctor like judge whether or not I get a ventilator by like how many columns I might possibly produce in the future. Like, no, the risk is too high. She might get a guardian column. So doctor, we have to save him. He's achieved the rank of brain samurai.

It isn't worth spending 185 billion to save people who might only have a few years left, nor is it worth a 15% drop in GDP, which results in even a greater loss of life. Just attempting to balance perfectly the like stock brokers going out of windows and the people dying for lack of ventilators. Because it's all, all of that has to happen. All of history is just one damn thing after another. It's as if to say because, you know, there's going to have to be these triages of who gets a ventilator and who doesn't. It's as if he's saying like, why didn't we always have this? Why are we just starting this triage system now? This is great.

You know what you Genesis do? You know what you Genesis is doing? It is tying the people to the tracks in front of the trolley. You can then be like, oh, it's so regressible that you have to make this decision, but you fucking put them there. Right. Yeah. If we'd invested money in getting ventilators at an appropriate time, how many people would have been killed because the government spent too much money on ventilators and they could go to their job at the Amazon web services factory? I was just standing there going like, well, this state run trolley isn't coming on time,

but a privatize it. Sorry, you're saying. Yeah. So like if we were to have a 3% mortality rate in the United States from COVID, if we just let the thing go, you're talking about the deaths of about 10 million Americans, which is what Toby's arguing, right? He's saying, just open it all up, let it run its course. 10 million people die, but it'll be worse if we shut the economy down and see a 15% drop in GDP, which will result in a greater loss of life. That is literally not true. And we're seeing why it's not true right now because you've got this core of essential workers right now doing the trucking, doing the logistics, making the food, making the supplies,

doing sanitation, all the important things it takes to let society continue and survive. Those people are working and everybody else isn't. The reason why people die in an economic downturn is because like Andy was saying earlier, our lives and not starving are tied directly to a wage, tied to the wage relation. All that's up in smoke now. It's gone. Nobody can work anymore. So actually, why do tons of people have to die if there's an economic collapse, if we continue to feed them, right? If we give them a UBI, if we take care of people in a way that we haven't before. I think the idea that 10 million people would die in a downturn is completely absurd at this moment when we need to be taking, we should be taking heroic measures with

like a $2 trillion fucking bailout of the economy. Then I would disincentivize them to take horrible slave jobs later. Yeah. Why are you untying people from these trolley tracks? That takes away from my beautiful moral choice that I've created for you here. You're untying people from this trolley tracks, but what if the trolley tracks fly away when you don't have people tied to them? Yeah. It's Toby Young with the NPC mask over the really angry Wojak underneath with the lever in his hand. I just stood on a platform waiting hours for a Southern train that's delayed because Toby Young's doing one of his moral thought experiments again. Just derailing it into like siding after siding after siding. All right. I think that's as good a point as

as any to end. But before we do, I want to say number one, thank you so much, Sean and Andy, for coming on and to everyone listening. You should check out the Antifada. Check about where you find podcasts and Andy, you had a book coming out. Yes. Buy my book. It's out April 20th. It's called I Want to Believe UFOs, Posadas, Apocalypse Communism, or something like that. It's buy it in all the bookstores that are open. Buy multiple copies of it. Yeah. Buy multiple copies and build yourself a two meter radius of the book. No, you can get it on. You can get it at PlutoBooks.com and use code Posadas20 for a 20% discount. Build a big target for the aliens to shoot nuclear weapons at us with.

We need a man more than ever. Real quick plug also. I have started to do what trash future our comrades have done before us, which is to Twitch stream. I just taught Andy how to use OBS and to Twitch stream himself. You can find our podcasts wherever podcasts are sold and where they're free, but you can find our Twitch at twitch.com slash the Antifada. We'll be doing about one or two a week. Oh yeah. Okay. Let's get on each other's streams. Play some fucking games. Let's cross streams. Hell yeah, baby. So we have t-shirts. If you would like a hot trash future t-shirt, very hot. It's very now. Yeah, they've been designed by Matt Lubchanski, friend of the show, actual friend of the show, unlike Toby Young. And they're very cool. There's

a link in the description with pictures and details of how to order one. Yeah, we ship internationally. So if you're in Venezuela, order a shirt. I was on the cover of a local newspaper today wearing one of those shirts. Oh yeah. Oh hell yeah. That's sick. Can we make that picture the episode cover art? It is not a good picture of me. Okay. We'll just use that's not the shirt's fault. The shirt's great. Yeah. We'll photoshop Toby Young's face over your face. That's fine. We'll just send Toby Young his shirt and wait for a couple of weeks. I'm sure he'll wait. He'll still take a picture like Winnie the Pooh, no pants, no underwear, just the shirt. Oh no. What have I summoned into being? All right. We've done enough nattering. So from

our family to your family, thank you very much for listening. Check us out on the Patreon on Thursday. You know, you know what it is. It's theme song. Here we go by Jen saying more than ever. Listen to it early. Listen to it often. Later. Bye.