TRASHFUTURE - Shah-stile Environment ft. Ahir Shah

Episode Date: April 23, 2018

We're back on our BS and talking hostile environment. Ahir Shah (@AhirShah) returns to talk about racism in Britain and the hostile environment, Alex Hern (@AlexHern) talks about cyber prejudice in the North, subbing in for Hussein (@HKesvani), who will be back in a couple weeks from visiting family, and definitely not an Evangeion Pilot Training Camp, in Tokyo-3, and Milo (@Milo_Edwards) calls in from Russia to deliver more of the hits. Riley (@Raaleh) is also there. Produced ably by Nate (@inthesedeserts). Commodify your dissent w/ a shirt http://www.lilcomrade.com/ Vote for TF to win a dumb award https://www.britishpodcastawards.com/vote love riley xoxo

The the policy of the US towards the Middle East has always been get the oil It's just it used to be cloaked in we're gonna integrate Iraq into the international system of commerce and Trump's like what no just get the oil and he's like We had a thing going oil It was that thing this week where we had the he had fucking Shinzo Arbe there and he said Japan or is it's also known the land of the rising Sun and he kind of like looks Conspiratorily at him and it's like you are literally like an embarrassing dad on holiday Going like can I have a brat forced a German who speaks perfect English?

He's cold open take he's gonna kill us all but it's good because we've stopped him through the power of this Aren't we so powerful? Don't you feel so much better that all of these things aren't like macro political things entirely outside the realms of our control Thank God we're resisting Trump through snarky podcasting We're gonna wait once he's listening to this he'll resign for sure. You know, we're gonna do guys. We're gonna stop Brexit This is this is literally the beginning to like a guest star of the podcast. What's that? It's Poochie's not on the audience should be asking where's Poochie Milo you you you had something that happened with Russia being all

Weird, right? Yeah speaking speaking of things that this podcast has influence over and can definitely stop Vladimir Putin So yeah in in Russia this week Like Roscombe Nadzor, which is like the Russian version of off-combe has decided to ban popular What's app like messaging app called telegram which was invented by a Russian guy who's like a notable opposition person Hold on. I just want to take a moment to address the fact that Riley like deliberately opened his beer as near as possible To the microphone so that everyone listening would know that he was drinking precisely one bit. Yeah, I want to know that I'm cool

Time to drink precisely one beer and own the Russians Yeah, they have like that's oh God, okay preview to the listeners I just got an email because I have we have to read a telegraph article because of a Of a curse that was put on me by a witch I just a plant by the right I just got an email saying make the most of your telegraph subscription Right he is literally subscribed to the telegraph to own the Tories Exclusive for telegraph subscribers get 30% off this pith helmet

Sorry Milo, what are you saying about Russia? We got sidetracked Secure encrypted messaging app, which is owned by this guy called Pavel Durov Who's like a famous Russian kind of opposition? It's like an opposition billionaire The good kind of billionaire, but actually because it's Russia. This is like as good as it He's genuinely like the best person in Russian politics at this point But yeah, he he founded he's like Russian muck Zuckerberg basically he like founded Kentucky, which is like Russian Facebook, which was then stolen from him by some wiggle bust wings He now lives in exile in I want to say Switzerland possibly America good place living exile

Sorry, I mean Switzerland's a classic place to go live in exile I mean, it's the the the original, you know, for those for the for the purist for the exile purist I mean, technically the original was like Different parts of Greece when too many people wrote your name on an Ostrakhan in Athens I think the original was actually whatever is just outside of Eden Like when you've when you've when you've slightly offended the sensibilities of Augustus by raking romantic overtures to his daughter So you go and live in you know, Bithynia or the shores of Pontus and complain about the locals who speak Greek Once you get again like we get again going after the Roman epic poets trash future takes no prisoners

We do we do do that pretty frequently more of an eligist really, but yeah, it's fine. Um, anyway Nerd we will I literally Latin literature. Uh, the only the only thing I really care about in life. Anyway, Pavel Jurov So he owns this messaging app telegram. It's really popular in Russia It's like at least as popular as WhatsApp if not more And anyway, the fsb has been trying to shut it down for ages basically Because they want it to allow them to spy on opposition activists, but they're doing this under the cloak of terrorism

And telegram refused to give them the encryption keys and the fsb has been suing them in the russian court and eventually got this court order To have them banned But of course, uh, the russian ross komnadzor this like offcom type body are really bad at actually doing their job So they're like they're like basically playing this like really dumb game of whack-a-mole Where like the villain in a disney film They are attempting to block all of telegram's ip addresses and telegram just keeps switching to new ip addresses and so everyone's version of telegram still works, but um ross komnadzor has now bought spent 40 million dollars Blocking millions of ip addresses, which were not even ever owned by telegram in the first place

So most of them are owned by like google and amazon and other big online companies Which like sell server space and so they've just blocked like hundreds of websites that they never intended to block Meanwhile telegram still works and you get updates on how like how it's going for telegram in telegram as the telegram official channel sends you gifts of like Men chasing each other around a lamppost and stuff with captions ross komnadzor tries to block telegram once again I think they managed to block about 65 million ip addresses Own used for google cloud platform and amazon web services like i've heard reports You'll you'll obviously know this more that they've brought down a shit load of quite critical russian infrastructure like credit card terminals

Not working payments infrastructure not working Meanwhile telegram's like hey and these are the people that suborned american democracy It is but like it is Notably inept right like but it's really interesting There is it is a thing about authoritarian control of the internet because basically the same thing happened in china About three years ago um great fire, which is the the charity that tries to Bring news uh into china around the the great firewall Uh deliberately did what telegram did accidentally it plowed

Uh mirrors of like new york times articles through github through the the online code sharing database um And china went well you can't do this so we will block github it blocked github and promptly every single chinese tech company when You fucking idiots you've broken our company and there is no tech sector in china until you unblock this and china went And unblocked it about 18 hours later, but like it was it was a liano. It was an incredible cell phone I love this. It's like all that's what it is It's like the relationship between these countries and the states at this point

Is that these countries are all like different versions of the three stuges? but The united states is the wealthy dowager for whom they're putting up a chandelier Uh, anyway, shall we uh shall we get into the show? Yeah. Oh, yeah lads lasses ladettes lad This is a noticeably old male one and everyone sitting here going see this gendering us. Is this problematic? I mean in as in as much as as trash future the podcast about how the future if we do not institute fully automated luxury gay space communism Has traditionally had a little bit of a too many oxbridge

males problem This is shut up Shut up nerd We look we're we're gonna work on it. We're gonna we're gonna get better, but in the meantime listen to our dumb opinions Um, I'm not white if that makes you feel better about I didn't say white males Um, yeah, no, so welcome to trash future of the podcast about how if we do an implement luxury gay Space communism fully automated. I'm gonna get this right one day in a fully automated manner

One day someone has to automate me I Can save the world as a system of government. He can't even say Okay, that's totally a conservative gunfucking argument where they're like, oh, yeah Well, what's in this if you want to ban an assault weapon so much? Why don't you know the ins and outs of exactly what ar-15 stands for? I mean, it's it's not though, is it? It's not the same argument. We're just mocking you Let's be very clear on this first you have to think like an ar-15

No, everyone knows that ar-15 stands for armand ripon classic winemaker Obviously, and it's a 15 year old bottle of his cabernet frang, right? I tell these libs if they don't shut up about my guns I'm gonna have to go into the basement and slap that that hog slap slap that david hogs what I meant to say You see this like conservatives online all want to spank david hog who is a minor Like there's no way you get in an argument with a 17 year old and win You don't unless you're another 17 year old you lose that argument. It doesn't matter. You've lost through the attempt of arguing Exactly

Because it's it's it's just tell us and their guns look like a fam and they're like what? I Well, it's the um the similarly Uh, if I let let's introduce ourselves then I'm then I'd like to tell a tale of my interaction with one jack buckby Oh god. Oh god. Yeah. Um So, uh, yeah, welcome to that thing. I said jack buckbeak the hippogriff Well, welcome to that thing. I said, uh, I'm I'm riley still you can find me on twitter at rala if you like bad posts I'm alex hern. I'm a technology writer for the guardian. I am alex hern on twitter

I'm ahir shah. I'm a stand-up comedian and I also exist on the internet And in the bore tell me about the bore Yeah, my name's my name's milo edwards. Uh, you can find me on twitter at milo underscore edwards Uh, you can also hopefully find me in mosco and not in a gulag. So fingers crossed for that Okay So I before we get into our actual content for today I did want to share a recent interaction. I had on the social networking website twitter.com The shit for which I live

Twitter.com live for this shit Uh, I was so I was buying some ear medicine for my sick uncle Who's a model you're not getting eyes um and uh Basically, there's this guy jack buckby who I think is like a student conservative leader, right? I mean, no, no, he's like a At at the risk of sort of

Making stuff up He was either He was either britain first or very closely allied with britain first It's he is far enough right that it is legitimately unfair to the tories to call him a conservative Um, oh, yeah, here it is. It's yeah, so jack buck. Joe. Do you what it is jack buckby? He's one of these like far right chuds who like wears a bow tie and so was given like a soft focus profile A bunch of mainstream media outlets to be britain's richard spencer, but he's not smart enough and he has no supporters So jack buckby, uh, tweeted yesterday, uh, guys, I need your help for a video coming out later today

What's the most appalling thing said by a left wing singer? Um, and because I just like to help, um, I I like, you know, I I want to help people out I'm a people pleaser. I was like, oh, I was like, well Uh, little mix has started to encourage their younger fans, especially tweens to cover up and wear modest clothing out of respect for immigration This is cultural marxism And because jack buckby wants to keep the teens dressing the tweens dressing damn sexy Keep it provocative responded. You are kidding me. I'll have to look this up So I can only assume that jack buckby must have googled, um

Little mix sexy tweens And now he's on a list Sometimes data driven monitoring of our entire actions is good Yeah, sometimes I love how he fell for that even though not only does it is it just not believable at all that little mix But also that what you said didn't even really make sense like out of respect for immigration This is the very right like respect for sensible immigration guys Oh Oh very good, uh, anyway, so that's how I did praxis today. I practice conservative online

As far as i'm concerned, that's the same as organizing Oh, I just got confirmation of my telegraph subscription. Will this torment never end? Just read the cricket coverage. You'll be fine. Just focus on the cricket um, so the uh Commonwealth heads of government circle jerk is in um is in britain today. Oh, no it was in britain yesterday in fact um Which I I think is deeply ironic for a lot of reasons

I mean, I like my favorite thing is just the merit-based appointment of the new head of the commonwealth Which in a shocked decision went to the son of the current head of the commonwealth Well, yeah, it was a merit-based appointment on most chromosomes. Yeah It's true Whoever wins the annual commonwealth heads of state game of soggy biscuit Or soggy soggy flatbread depending on which which particular ethnic group is you know hosting that Yeah, um, no, so this is this is brit- britain's attempted empire 2.0 is uh has kicked off um, because after brexit

The commonwealth is gonna be the main um block of nations With which britain will trade assumedly for its benefit, right? It totally makes sense. That is that is how it will work If there's a group of countries that love britain, it's the commonwealth Boy now time to take a big sip of beer and check the news to find out if we've done anything to piss off that block I mean, you've got a bit about this, right? Well, I just think like there's a very peculiar argument on the Certain sections of the british right at the moment that assumes people they used to own will respond really well to begging after like when The sort of request for trade deals comes around and you go cap in hand, you know, it's like, uh Yeah, it's the discussion of the idea of our friends in the commonwealth with absolutely no interrogation of how those friendships started

Which is an astonishing position to take And then when you get into the actual nitty-gritty of what they actually mean when they talk about canada, australia and new zealand You're like, oh, well, isn't it like a tremendous coincidence that the only commonwealth countries you ever mention are the ones where the genocide of the Indigenous population was conducted thoroughly, right? It's uh Very odd What a coinky dink anyway time to move on without addressing that question It's like it's like rich white americans in the south going you see you see how close we are with the black community Many of us have the same surnames. We must have all got along

Yeah, so that's um That's currently what's going on right now. Um, but as I think many of our well, that's it's weird actually because like I say this Occasionally half our listeners are american Wow, how how are y'all? How are y'all doing? How y'all doing? No, um, this is what you I don't fully understand What just happened? I I'm trying to make them feel at home at peace by uh speaking to them in their language You mean you want to go loud and slow? Do you understand me? We just oh, what's that the stats and I'll say a quarter of your listeners are america

Oh, fifth if you live we haven't even released the episode. They just they just they're unsubscribing in real time I love it so much. They're moving to the uk because of the sense of immigration There are people who have bought like trash future shirts who are walking around american cities, which is fun I had a hugely great uh awkward meeting a friend's house with someone who I learned after arriving to this Meal wearing the trash future fully automated luxury gay space communes and t-shirt She's an employee of the u.s. Department of Defense and there was just like She she did quite a good job of only three or four times Nervously glancing down and reading the slogan on the front of the t-shirt before matching my eyes

And then clearly making a conscious decision not to bring it up I mean did she not look at any of the other words? It's like a listener. She was really impressive because there is clearly a thing that I I assume they must be explicitly trained for of how to partake in sort of a dinner table conversation Without ever expressing a view So sort of the conversation turned to like topics like gun control and donald trump and she was a full and active participant in it And I have no idea what her stance was Like she was surprised at gun control, but did not you know, I can't tell you whether she thought it was good or bad

or you know Completely insane or utterly utterly sensible as we all know guns are naturally occurring. Yeah It's like it's like the uh the theory of spontaneous generation of different kinds of animals as we all know You know a pile of shirts will generate rats A meat left out in the open air will generate maggots and freedom generates guns But like america is a country that Legitimately spent a decade trying to ban the substance that occurs if you leave fruit on the counter too long Okay, well that didn't work. So clearly we can't ban guns either

Done and that's that like their through line is prohibition doesn't work. Look like except on the stuff that if you can make guns in bathtubs Okay, like you need to Poor cordyte and so Peter in a bathtub and you get an a of 15 now. That's a prohibition party. I want to go to That's that's what I do. Like I just make I make guns of the bathtub and then I turn the taps on it's just bullets come out Come out of the tap homebrew guns made by I was really unconfident that you were gonna hit the last note and I Was really pleasantly But I I can do it

um, anyway, so The commonwealth it's a whole thing, right? We're trying to make it a thing. Yeah, and it's sort of everyone else in the world is being like stop trying to make this We're like for half of our listeners. Uh, what is the commonwealth? So All right, all right amazon gift card goes to Milo Thank you. Thank you. I can't use it because all their IP addresses have been blocked but so basically in the past Uh, britain owned most of the world

Uh, and then we're fairly consummately told to fuck off around the middle of the 20th century by people Including mohat magandhi the most passive aggressive man to ever exist Uh Mahatma Gandhi the man who left britain on red Really angsty notes pasted on the salt mills And so left wing man ever to wear flip flops in winter Uh, so as a consequence, they wanted to sort of keep some idea of the club still going And so the commonwealth sprung out of that desire, right? So there's uh notion that

Oh, we're but all in this together and let's gloss over the unpleasantness That originated in the circumstances in which we got together And now let's do things for mutual benefit, which in the 21st century post brexit Generally means please help us We have so consummately we murked ourselves via the medium of bass. So we Desperately need your help We have cheeses and jams And so many railways and in the end what did it for us was a bus

All right, you've already got the you've already got the amazon gift card stuff showing off Uh, but yes, so I think that uh in the portion of time where the heads of various commonwealth governments have managed to stop laughing They have come to london to have a meeting um and They're this meeting like this meeting like commonwealth heads of government meeting like or whatever it's called like takes place like relatively frequently um But this year it has been colored

by something else entirely Which is that britain has been deporting a lot of british citizens Because they just don't have passports and aren't white basically More or less more or less. I don't I think part of the problem is they are not technically british citizens they are uh Their passports will be british overseas territories

It like there you can you can go way back with this, but the essential fuck up began in the 70s when britain just unilaterally went Yeah, if you have a british passport, but you're not from great britain your british passport doesn't let you live in great britain anymore. Sorry, bye Exactly when when when britain when britain started to think of itself Rather as a sort of conquering power that rules the world as sort of a fortress Where we're going to keep all the wealth we took from when we were the first one Yeah, so we've taken all your wealth, but you can't live here anymore essentially Yeah, and so what happened like the the ticking time bomb of all of this is that they

When that policy was made it was an explicit promise and statement and policy that If you were in britain at that time on one of these overseas territories passports or one of these passports that is not from Great britain You were allowed to stay you got indefinitely to remain and you didn't need to do anything You just had it and that was fine. So every everyone involved in this in the scandal has been Is and has been legally in britain Uh since the 70s. This is this is what the wind rush generation is It was sort of people who basically came between between world war world war two ending and well more more than that

They're in in a large wave of migration, which the british government Planned and asked for there was in uh Following sort of in in the 60s reconstruction of britain when when the economy finally started booming after world war two Britain went we need a shitload more labor. We need people to run the nhs We need people to run the railway systems We need people to run the underground and they explicitly advertised in Uh, particularly in caribbean commonwealth countries and countries which were even back then still british colonies

And they said hey come over there, you know, there will be a job for you and they came over legally legitimately Until that door was shut in the 70s And guys you've heard of us building railways for you, but what if you? Well, have we got a proposition here? I'm turning disrupting the railway game. Is it i've built railways in delhi Cairo and boy did it put them on the back of the paverbrook North cairo, what was it? Yeah, well my uh, my grandfather was invited over in order to work on the buses Little did he know that a short 50 years later

The very bus itself would be the mechanism by which this country destroyed itself, which was actually his long-term plan I like to make that is that is a fantastic example of chekov's gun And it will get driven around the country with racist slogans in the final act The dramatic composition of your grandfather's life is second to none Who wrote your grandfather? I don't know, but I wish that uh, whoever did didn't decide for him to die 14 years before he could have seen the bus come to its logical fruition so basically what we have is

there was a massive campaign throughout britain's former territories in the caribbean to bring over labor build the country back up again and A lot of the and not one person said thank you By the way, it was very hostile from what i've heard from my grandparents At the time and you could have well it is it is so difficult to say thank you to people who you've asked for help And it's much easier to kick them I heard there were there were there were rivers occasionally bloody

Yeah, which like I mean, I've got to say Disappointed in like people talk about the immigrant work ethic But my grandparents did not contribute towards even a tributary of blood Which I find deeply disappointing my grandfather did have leukemia So it's sort of like fair enough, but with my grand you've got to put it down to laziness But So um, so what we have essentially is we have families that were coming over right and Because like the parents the families would have been in sort of

Cajold to come over and and work etc. And they would break kids with them And so the kids Who just their status just sort of changed without them really having to do anything? Yeah, and So then what's happened is the kids have The full right to be in the country again Erase all borders everyone should have the right to be anywhere But regardless even under the rules of the state especially in my dm. We're talking explicitly and deliberately about people who

Are legally in britain and legally about people who played by the rules essentially But because they came over here as kids and it wasn't necessary for them to get documentation If they had never bothered to apply for a passport before just because they hadn't needed one They can't prove it because yeah, this is fundamentally the problem. You have you have an issue where in 1973 uh, if you had a passport from uh, jamaica and what in britain you could stay in britain for your entire life that same passport that same paperwork but you being in jamaica you couldn't and

That that has been a state of affairs that has been relatively stable for 40 years And what happened was in 2012 and 2014 a pair of immigration acts were passed which introduced this hostile environment policy Which basically extended the responsibility for checking immigration status from the home office to lay people to to landlords to doctors and nurses to employers and suddenly The distinction between the distinction of when you actually arrived being hugely important not only to Getting a passport but to having health care or having a flat or having a job when that suddenly mattered You had

Thousands people who couldn't prove it who if you can't prove that you were in britain pre 1973 You can't prove that you are in britain legally now and And obviously pre 1973 you couldn't like check in on four square exactly It becomes the equivalent of your like uncle china claim that he saw pink floyd live once I don't know what else to be checking on. I'm the only four square user left in london like I still check into places and it's incredibly lonely. Are you the mayor of everywhere? I'm the mayor of fucking everywhere I remained the mayor of my university law library for eight years after I left because who the fuck else checks into a university law library I didn't even study law

You wanted to get called to the bar because you were the mayor of the law library I did philosophy of law for eight weeks and that was enough to become the mayor of the library for eight years That's how they pick the chairman of the commonwealth Prince jones has checked into every commonwealth country on four square And no one else had the foresight to do that Consequently here he has earned it through sheer tenacity Hey guys just checking out yuganda I'm the mayor of yuganda now

I mean that's just colonialism. You go to a country you check in on four square and then you build a railway and then nothing else happens It's all good You check in and make other people build the railway. I think is Yeah, that yeah fair enough That that actually that does remind me though. Do you see that tweet from brian cox like The the the dumb person smart person Come on. Come on. There are better people It was jordan peterson the dumb person smart person. Well with neil the grass tyson

I don't think brian cox is the dumb person smart person brian cox is a dumb person brian cox is the smart person for someone who looks down on neil the grass tyson as the dumb person smart person There we go. Wow. That really fucking threaded that needle In in in this needs to be next to a galactic brain meme for me to understand it Sorry, our hero only speaks online. It was a big brain brian cox is actually good. Um, no it's that um brian cox recently tweeted that he wanted um He he because he thinks that all of our political problems now are just caused by our politicians being stupid and undereducated He was saying we should implement an eight-week course in the history of all human knowledge

For all politicians to take before they take up any post to which i don't see vangelion I well, I think that's a good idea. I think they should study politics, obviously I think they should study philosophy so they know the difference between right and wrong And they should study economics so they know how to do it I think if maybe we could educate our politics our politicians in those three subjects, we would see real change Why limit it to eight weeks? Riley, why not nine times as many say three eight week terms a year for three years If only we could if only we could find an elite university to deliver this then finally our politicians wouldn't be dumb

Dumbs and we wouldn't have problems like this anymore But to make sure they don't lose their sense of fun every now and again, they should meet up in tailcoats and go out drinking One of my favorite things about this tweet was just like in a in muffry's law It had a fucking typo in it Which just you you're not allowed to go around going oh these dumb dumb shouldn't rule us and not spell right in 240 characters. It's quite easy. Come on you fucker. I love dums I love like I love like when smart people really try to perform their intelligence So just to end up sort of really putting their face in a pie. It's you've just described my entire career

That's a really deep Well trying to look smart Sorry liberals e equals mc cube and I think you'll find So Anyway, thinking of this sort of what what so what's happened as a result of all of this is that a lot of people Have been deported back to countries. They have no memory of they have no memory of and the you know again Distinguishing perhaps have never even lived in at all. I don't know some people who are literally born here But because they weren't born to british citizens, they didn't get british citizenship

Uh, what what we just what what the wind rush generation is is people who were born outside of great britain but but came over here like the problem with the hostile environment policy is yeah sort of A shitload of people have been wrongly deported for a shitload of reasons But what's become really emblematic about this is these people are migrants like fundamentally they are migrants but they are legal migrants who Have an absolute right to stay in britain for their entire life with no need for any extra paperwork like they they have They were granted indefinitely to remain the day that became a concept in british law

But they can't prove it and they've never had to prove it before now and that's that's the the distinction here That's what's fucked it up and the key they're the re one of the reasons they can't one of the reasons And the reason they have to prove it is as you were saying this hostile environment to illegal immigration Where if you can't prove your british or have the right to be here then you get deported and you appeal later Yeah, the port first appeal later is an explicit policy of the uk government, which is like Ridiculously evil. Oh, yeah Just just it's one of those things that you just go. What that's that's fucked right? That's completely Fucked therese may is definitely like dr. Colossus in disguise like she's a cartoon super villain

Then again, though this being like preposterously evil is not surprising given that they've literally called the policy hostile environment Like sounds evil It's like it's like the first draft it was called the final solution and then one in turn was like maybe not that Yeah, I think that this has been so but we were speaking about this before Recording but so my father has indefinite right to remain in the uk through marriage to my mother who is a british citizen But he's always kept his indian passport and since brexit I've just been like look how much do you think that this is going to matter when he's 68 now in a year? He'll be nice and in 10 years. He'll be ill

So He's gonna have to start dealing more with public services and with the nhs than he has done in the past in touch wood Like he's been in good health His whole life and hopefully that continues for as long as possible But the worry is just like You know, how much do you think this is worth because you know when you go into the hospital? or whatever like You know to have to prove that

You're in need of something that might actually be quite urgent and any delays in care will be really really bad and damaging Uh, those are the things that my sister and I are very worried about and he's like not being You know, he's very reticent to go down the british citizenship A because like it's a personal thing of having a bit emotional tie to the indian citizenship And also it's sort of an acknowledgement of impending mortality to be like Oh, yeah, i'm gonna have to deal with the health service a bit more in the coming years because i'll be in my 70s So it totally makes sense Uh from his perspective why he would be reticent, but it's just been yeah a real worry for the family like

Ah shit with the way that things are going with the government and what they're doing to migrants You might really feel the harsh end of this when you can least afford to feel the harsh end of this Trouble is that here you're never gonna fit that on a bus It'd have to be like a bendy bus Small fault don't forget like 16 point. This is just sensible concerns about immigration This is this is sensible immigration policy now. Hey, uh, there's a The two ways you can get into an hs hospital are either with a british passport or by Conforming to a sort of you must be this high to ride but with a goot do you lux color chart?

Yeah, my father tragically cocoa blush I'm not okay So i've got i've got an article here for the telegraph, which is what we've been foreshadowing by former twitter user nick timothy Who has i think for for this article been laughed off of twitter? He he he deleted his account because he was owned so hard like He is he's actually laughing though. So it's all fine nick timothy has been bodied off the internet He got a ratio of 1.3 k to 46 likes before he left

But this is the thing about the hostile environment policy is By its nature it is impossible to have a policy which Uh enforces hostility on migrants There can only be a policy which enforces hostility on people who look like migrants Which is a hugely different group of people and we discussed this before we came around the Came around the table and started recording like of riley and i The person who an immigration officer would pick as someone who looks like a migrant

Is not the white canadian migrant around the table. Yeah, it's the brown guy who admittedly sounds as though He's been colonized by his own voice Yeah, i was gonna say until they open their mouths Yeah, but that's like, you know if i If i go to a hospital or something and i'm be able to talk then i'll be oh no He's a brit put him out of there and then if i just go to a hospital But i've been like hit by a bus or something and i can't actually speak those but i put him with the other package That's gonna be the i genuinely wonder though. I just like i actually don't think given how this has been enforced in practice

I don't even think that would help I think the odds of one of you having to show like the assumption would be that Not that riley isn't a migrant when you both started speaking but riley was almost certainly here legally and you know because he Isn't Stop listening now I have no idea if that's true I am i'm here legally riley is here legally here Shouldn't be

Zero out of ten If we're discussing sensible migration controls. Well, one of the uncensible ones let this fuck her in Did you all just want to hear a little bit about about sensible migration controls from uh internet genius nick timothy I mean you've paid the telegraph to tell us that we have to now Of course nick timothy as we all know is short for nicolas timethus Um The homo and this is his this is his article entitled the windrush scandal is heartbreaking But it should not be used as an excuse to stop sensible migration controls

It's heartbreaking if you care which i don't it's a tautology What what you've got there is like yes sensible migration controls are by by definition sensible It would be really nice if we had any like sensible migration controls are oh, yeah If you've got like a mass murderer pedophile genocidal maniac who's trying to apply for citizenship don't don't allow that That's a sensible welcome. Mr. President I'm actually only in favor of nonsensible migration controls like you can only get into the country if you're wearing a stove pipe hat Only clowns only clowns Can you juggle a flaming torch? No get the fuck out of here the home office nick timothy writes is a dangerous place for ministers

Because it is an operational department as much as a policy department So this is his basically his article is please don't be mad at teresa may for that thing she did It's a dangerous place for the ministers in this government because they're all like the fucking villains from home alone Like constantly like slipping on spills and hitting their face on paint cans. There's a bunch of fucking idiots who could be like fucking Yeah, my life only there was some eight week course If only they weren't dumb dumps and could actually go to like, I don't know maybe like some kind of elite university paying for like a flying green alien to pop into their sort of subconscious and be like hey dumb dumb Maybe don't deport a load of british residents

Okay, it is responsible for devising laws and rules as many government departments are But also taking hundreds of thousands of decisions again as many Of huge importance to the people involved as many government departments are Apart from dexie you Dexie doing jackal except sitting there and gradually panicking as they were more and more as they required judgment and discretion mistakes are sometimes made In the case of the windrush generation the people who came to britain between 48 and 71 on their parents passport mistakes are always made The department has been slow to realize there was a systemic problem

I mean that much it that that much is true They were slow to realize like hey picking up my employer because maybe one of them will listen Like we we've been reporting on this for six months just and at the beginning Amelia gentlemen the the reporter who essentially has broken the story was calling around Basically everyone who has any oversight policy and going hey, this is this has happened Someone's been deported who has every right to stay here and it looks like Uh, actually there's there's nothing in the policy that was applied wrongly here that this is just An outcome of the policy as it should be applied, but the outcome has been illegal

And it was like, huh, well that doesn't sound like something we do Can't be much of a problem and then just like it happened another 80 times And eventually no couldn't be us. Yeah, you must be thinking of another home office Oh, no, you mean the Homer office Oh the home office So timothy continues, um It is describing this this issue a tragic tale the people of the windrush generation are here legally They are british their experience is intolerable the home office must fix this problem

And quickly some ministers must change some some say ministers must change their approach to illegal immigration And here is where nick timothy swerves into the unreal into the stupid This is wrong We have hundreds of thousands of people slides off the carriageway and down the verge With limited budgets time consuming legal processes and often a lack of co-operation from other countries It will never be possible for the authorities to arrest and deport their way to success again true True This is true. I want to host seminars called deport your way to success

So ministers jetty book So deport means deport and success I mean So ministers are right To make britain a harder country to live in for people who are here illegally But it's it's as you were saying alex. It's like That may be the case. It's like I'll make it difficult for people who are here illegally But as you were saying the assumption is just going to be oh, you are non-white

So i'm going to assume that you are here illegally. That's what's happened like the the two options for that policy are one is Mandate proof of right to reside for everyone for everything Unsurprisingly, I do not get asked for my passport in my daily life all that often. The other one is trying to do And you're jetting off to monica No, I mean look who doesn't commute from montecarlo to king's cross. It's the the quality of life is so much better Hammeraging money I'm sorry, sir, but to register on the eight week politician brain genius course you need to show your proof of right of residency

But like this is the thing right there The only way you can do the hostile environment policy in a non-racist way Is to enforce the hostile environment policy on 70 million british citizens in their daily life Unsurprisingly That would also be a political vote loser because the first time someone lost a job because they didn't have their passport on them They'd be a bit miffed. You probably hear about that in the press because it would happen to a white person And it would be news white people are the only people who get miffed I am no one in my family have ever been miffed. I mean, I think I'm the only person who's been miffed since 1964

Miffed is the emotion you get when you want to speak to someone's manager The partition of india people were miffed Dandy demanded to speak to the manager An ancient Sanskrit word meaning torn limb from limb because of Fucking short-sighted idiocy of what was done to them. We want to speak to the manager So Nick timothy says I've got a prediction here Which is that obviously a Lib billionaire possibly Elon Musk is going to come in and like disrupt the immigration system

And be like there's a solution to this We just implant chips in everyone that tell you whether they're illegal immigrants or not They just have to put it on a reader every time you do anything and that solved the problem They'll just make the first am a capital so it'll be i migration I mean peter teal's disruption of immigration is fucking seasteading so We've already hit the nadir there. Let's put all the migrants on a boat outside san francisco So that they can work in the tech sector without the right to reside. What could go wrong? What a genius industry. That's that's a legitimate plan of a company backed by peter teal

Jeffrey Epstein volunteers to deport all of the immigrants on his private plane Legit that is a genuine thing. So alcatraz. They want to do a reverse rock What if we had to break onto the island? It's an elegant anal beads configuration Is that another one takes off the bingo lens? No, that's just a reference to the rock a film that i'm going to reference along with crank and crank to high voltage A lot more as the podcast goes on. It's actually my tumblr url elegant anal beads configuration dot tumblr.com

okay so Nick timothy continues i'm going to make this telegraph subscription worthwhile Welcome to trash future the only communist podcast where we read unabridged telegraph articles directly into your ears What are the benefits of telegraph subscription like opera tickets that you actually have to pay more for? You get Okay, so ministers are right Nick timothy says to make britain a harder country to live in for people who are here illegally

In recent years They have made it more difficult for illegal immigrants to rent property get a job claim benefits obtain bank accounts and driving licenses And even skeptical studies shows that this increases the number of people leaving the country voluntarily Ministers should not reverse the policy because of the wind because of the windrush scandal. I'm just adding that for clarity Um, but extend it to include other services What if the problem with the hostile environment policy is it's not hostile enough? But what I get what I love with this is that this is where nick timothy is just showing his complete inability to have a thought

That's total like i genuinely i don't i don't think nick timothy recognized himself in mirrors I think i think when nick timothy looks in a mirror. He thinks it's another dog and starts biking parking at it I mean, does he have tool use like basic? Can he can he bend a twig and get something out of a marmite jar? I think when you leave the room, you can't prove it's here legally I think I think when nick tip when you leave a room nick timothy thinks you don't exist anymore Um, because he then says the most terrifying thing about object permanence is that i'm convinced there are people out there Who don't think it's a problem at all

Okay, so is that then after saying the environment needs to get more hostile Uh than it's ever been he says he tries to exonerate teresa may when she was uh home secretary from ever putting off those go home or face arrest vans Uh that circulated britain probably the second most racist form of automotive transport that have ever by this country's roads Um Legitimately like you you have a good rule of thumb for the past 20 years of british policy in that if politics and tarmac have intersected It's shit I want this is a forward-looking podcast. I want a racist hyperloop I want to be told to go home

By a cheer being shot through a vacuum at 700 miles an hour That's all I want to I want to be sent to india in that cheer Where's a suit faster than ever nick timothy says that actually the go-home or face arrest vans that drove around primarily immigrant neighborhoods That plan was approved when she was on holiday and she never understood what was going on in her own department And so it's not actually her fault So the environment has to get more hostile, but times when it was more hostile wasn't the fault of the current prime minister It was incompetence not malice How do you ever say that and think you're helping your boss?

Oh I love the idea of a bunch of like malicious civil servants being like right tereza's on holiday while the cat's away the mice will be really racist Super racist in her name Um, I mean it's gonna mess up her eventual career as prime minister Is this the point where we note that it took less than 24 hours for that statement to be proved false? Like which statement that the statement that it all happened when she was on holiday and she had nothing to do with it Less than 24 hours after that, uh, I think it was the huffington post

Um had an interview with a senior home office, uh, civil servant. I ran a cave foiled because of the stamps in her passport But she was she was on holiday But from holiday had intervened to toughen up the language on the racist vans on the vans Like what was it before like consider going home? Have you thought about maybe leaving the country? But like, you know, you can't see so tereza want to go home you slags Is less racist and less loaded than go home or face arrest like it's that particular language Has an incredibly loaded history to it and it doesn't feel like a coincidence that they picked it

She really doesn't go home or face a river of blood To be fair that would work on me like I'll hear where's mainly white shirts like a river of blood would be horrible for you The dry cleaning bills alone The amount of how much vanish do you think I have in the house? I can't be dealing with that one of the one of the one of the one of the things we're talking about here also are that, um The decision was taken to destroy the landing cards of the of the windrush generation But the windrush kids so you couldn't prove that they were british

Also, what really disappoints me about the destruction of the landing cards aside from the fact that firstly they're historic artifacts And should have been saved for like archival purposes or put in a museum or something like that This is a big part of british history also like if you had a single non-white person working in the department They would have raised their hands and be like maybe this is the dumbest thing you could possibly do So clearly it was just a bunch of white people On in charge of this and who didn't think that it would be an issue But also just like nothing really shows the decline of the power of the british state that we've moved from 50 years ago operation legacy chucking crates of documents out the side of boats, which is very dramatic

Just moving to just basic shredding It's like really disappointing, you know, it's like if you're gonna be a supervillain have some fucking flag Throw it in a volcano Or maybe or maybe like have like a pulley system and then like some hero has to save landing cards Could be a whole thing a laser just slowly inching towards them So one of these things where it's just like did you think about any of this before you did it? Like at the point where you're like shall we destroy all of the records you have to think like How would this look in a hollywood film of this event? This is very much like we're in the bunker

It's the end of the film. There's a lot of artillery going on around and we're about to shoot ourselves in the face But the last thing we do is destroy all the documents. Yeah, has there ever been a film where the good guys have shredded the documents? You've literally just described the end of the british empire, Milo. You do realize that? That is what was being done with the boats This is actually a political tactic that they've used which is that the previous labor government Took the decision to destroy lots of old documents that were considered no longer relevant including the landing cards But even they took they took the decision to do it They didn't do it

And then and this is some ammunition that's that that has been used by Nick timothy and the tories to try and say actually this is all labor's fault Even though the tories took the decision to destroy the landing cards and then to create the conditions in which the landing cards were very Important. Yeah, like you don't story's argument is that they're good because they very effectively carried out labor policy But second and this is interesting which is that Nick timothy says that all of the campaigning against the tories because of this is saying oh You want to you want to blame labor? You want to blame the tories because of this? Oh, yeah Well labor in 2007 said that living and working here illegally should become even more uncomfortable and constrained

Okay, so they agreed with you back then Why are so are you do you think this policy is good or bad because you keep saying that? Oh, well enforcing this policy is good and we have to do it more but that time therisa may did it more It wasn't her fault. Well, so stop insulting us for doing it But actually the people who did it are the people that you like so we're owning you also, not sure if you've noticed nick timothy, but kind of uk politics has uh changed quite a lot since 2007 and i'm Pretty sure most of the people you argue against literally defined themselves by arguing against that particular labor government

Right, so there hasn't been a good home secretary like ever It's a job that takes good people and spits out racism And that includes labor or it's a job that takes therisa may and then spits out therisa It spits out therisa june The next level with me if you want to go home Right and so then nick timothy ends the argument doing the basic like a nick powell rivers a blood thing Which is that he does which is that labor wants to maintain high immigration and keep like britain from maintaining its status as an ethno state Because they want easy votes from brown people et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera

And that essentially these policies are good Nick timothy has been very perspicacious in noting that i will be more amenable to vote for political parties who don't openly threaten my family As someone whose grandmother was deported by the conservative government of john major i took that pretty personally to be honest So that's essentially the rank hypocrisy Of the hostile environment the wind rush generation and the new scandal that's consuming the tori party that unfortunately won't do anything about it Like like this is gonna have this is just what's happening like the tori party. It's it's not going anywhere Until the next election at which point i think it might be wiped into non-existence except maybe in maidenhead

Where they think they only think that white people exist I think i think maidenhead thinks of politics like the game space invaders Where are you just i've kicked in maidenhead Uh, uh, there's a lot of browns in maidenhead, but like it may just be that all of them come to my shows Like we thought we were the only ones left Yeah, that's where therese mays constituency is right. Yeah. Okay. Cool. So where the mobile phone network three is based for a second I was i confused it with maidstone in kent also extremely tori What i oh maidstone in kent is terrible

I'll be there in july You're letting maidstone listeners I think i think you're great That maidstone you're unnoticed the maidstone defender has locked on Um, but after that conversation about You almost you can't say latent just overt, uh, british racism Um, I kind of wanted to move to a topic of conversation about, um Layton but just overt british racism. That's more within the bailey wick of this podcast. Um, techno cynicism

I mean in the bailey wick of this podcast. Technology bad is my opinion. Very on brand. That's new merch right there I mean, idae, listening idae, can you please print that t-shirt? What's currently going on, uh in north east england The canadian dust geography Is dorham in northeast? Yes. Yes. No, you did it. Well done. Awesome. Sick. Amazing. I'm so good at england Within the bailey wick of dorham. So no, this this this article is a closer look at experience big data and artificial intelligence in dorham police are more, uh, sweet god

Some of our listeners may already expect that this is going to get racist Because when the police use artificial intelligence, that's a that was the tagline for the current season of british history Empire 2.0 this is going to get racist So essentially what's going on and i'm i'm There are several there are several sort of news outlets reporting it. I think big brother watch of all of them covered it Yeah, big brother watch uncovered it and has done the best reporting all all the other sources are reporting on what big brother watch uncovered So is that like the the magazine show they have after regular big brother? Big brother's little brother

So Basically, what's happened is that the police in dorham have used commercially available data sources This one provided by xperian a credit rating a credit rating agency um called mosaic mosaic provides approximately 50 000 pieces of information about every british adult so It's also like I didn't know that there were 50 000 things about me

Seems like a lot of things 50 000 things i deport about you Whereas riley has 50 000 just on his masturbation habits alone so uh The dorham police has developed a machine learning algorithm called the harm assessment risk tool heart To evaluate the recidivism risk of offenders The algorithm scores offenders to place them in one of three categories of low moderate or high risk And those deemed to be of moderate risk of reoffending or below

Are offered the chance to go into a rehabilitation process as an alternative to prosecution However The ways The ways in which people are sorted into these categories is the paint chart is once again The paint chart coco blush or lower. Yeah To jail with these So the ai tool uses 34 data categories including the offenders criminal history Their age gender and two types of residential postcode

Two types I only have only one type how many but like yeah, what the police have access to a second secret postcode system So stone cutters postcodes So the um ultimately the um The mosaic system categorizes people by a lot of different um a lot of different sort of uh metrics Experience mosaic code includes the demographic characteristics of each Stereotype of person where they pull thousands thousands of data of different data points who try to predict the reoffending history

Characterizing asian heritage as extended families living in inexpensive clothes packed victorian terraces Adding that when people do have jobs. They are generally in low-paid routine occupations in food transport or stand-up comedy You're the worst type man in the world Disconnected youth Culture here's the weird thing like this is why I think like all all algorithmic methods of governance are inherently conservative That is to say the artificial intelligence is the intelligence of an old person Because disconnected youth in this profile

Are characterized as avid textures whose wages are often low with names like liam and chelsea Oh my god because avid textures, they're all over bebo my space, you know all that stuff Some of them have Nokia 3310 some of them have Nokia 3330s you kids are charged with looking at your damn phones So experience mosaic links these names to stereotypes for example people call links like it looks at first names To like infer ethnic origin and stuff Um, so people who are called stacey are likely to fall under the families with needs Stereotype who receive a range of benefits really hot mom category Here's the mom has it going on

whereas Whereas you're charged with having a mom who is an absolute fox Whereas abdi and asha are crowded kaleidoscopes Proud and kaleidos what does the what? Describe the last bands of the 80s crowded kaleidoscope described as multicultural families likely to live in cramped and overcrowded flats Whilst terrence and denise are low-income workers who watch too much tv. Also. What does like Multicultural under this definition like are my family multicultural because You're a family monoculture. It's a lovely thing the same way someone goes. We want to hire a diverse candidate. It's like

No, you don't what does that mean somebody wears fucking polka dance like They're both a goth and an emo Wow They're doing like one of those half and half duet acts where like one half is dressed as a woman and one half is dressed as a man Um, but they also will look at things that are more like either art art sort of they're the look at ethnic issues They'll look at all this but they'll also look at stuff Like are you from a postcode where they're where the ratio of gardens to flats is negative? Yes, right like so are you from an affluent area or not?

And yes, the two genders gardens and And so what what the police are then doing is they are using this system Where they're they're basically what they've done is they've created a massive regression analysis. I think I suspect Where regression in more ways than one It might be a neural network That's just more regression analyses um

I mean, it's a bunch of them tied together. This is not the podcast where I go Actually, I'm a nerd. Anyway, here's my lunch money Josh future is actually a podcast where all of the guests compete to hand their lunch money to the other people I'm more nerdy take mine. No, I'm more nerdy take my Why he did actually make alex go and buy him beer earlier We're not a million miles away from something that's actually getting us swirly before this podcast is out Oh, man said pain come to my house Anyway inch by inch. Anyway, um

So what we have is all of these they they're saying look we're going to take this historical data Where we have all this information about people and whether they reoffended And then we're going to use that to predict their risk of reoffending in the future to either of you guys know why that's fucking pants on head stupid Could it be because america already did it and it was super racist? I'm going to go with that one. Do you do you have it? No, I think that I'm going to be on team alex here as well

Yeah, it's just well It's the assumption that like the algorithm itself cannot be biased because it doesn't have an agenda and therefore You ignore the fact that what's being fed into it has its own history and biases And that will continue to impact the thing that gets channed out and I think that's why sort of the unwillingness particularly in the tech sector to regard the input as being loaded And not really come to terms with that and think about what that means for the ethics of what people are doing going forward Is very very troubling because you'll get to a situation where you're like Well, how could the output be biased because this was made by a computer that doesn't have any of these biases and

Just ignoring the fact that we were feeding into it My favorite thing about this is that the the american example Um, this was a company called north point in america which built a very similar system which was widely used amongst american police departments and uh tied into american sentencing guidelines to Just like here, uh Suggest whether or not someone should receive rehab probation or go to jail The american example was found by the

investigative journalism organization pro publica to be systematically recommending jail terms More to african-americans than to white americans Uh, I don't I don't want to knock the job of any investigative journalist I think that they do very great and important work I'm going to suggest that the layperson would also have been capable with coming up with that conclusion I don't care Like in the most surprising news of all time The justice system in the united states was systematically raised

What is nice about the north point one though is the north point one did not use a data set that contained the race of the offender uh, it effectively the the data set worked out the race Through all of the other characteristics. So it did know proxies like income where you live exactly Proxies like income location. It worked that out and despite not knowing the race It still managed to systematically suggest harsher sentences against black americans the white americans and so durham an experience saw this and we're like What have we been on a system that goes people call that her a brown? What have we that fit that might fix it cool

Cool, this will work This'll be fine, but it's it's to me like this This beast speaks I think of a fundamental problem and I think Not no, I'm known. I don't say progressives, but Progress minded and that is say people who put a lot of their faith In this idea that we can outsource our own decision making and elements of our social organization to sort of machines And that will make it somehow more ethical and balanced cyber utopians Yeah, I think this gives the lie to a lot of that cyber utopian thinking because

I think a lot of that's predicated on this idea that there is this totem of the data And that if we can get the data and we can have the algorithm Then we can have the right outcome and it's utterly a historical and it completely forgets that Historically people may have been pushed to do things by power structures They might rather not do it might forget that kind of criminality isn't The only people in which criminality is inherent are of course italians who have an extra lobe in their brain That gives them a certain low criminal deviousness. Of course Obviously as we all know

But that's the problem. It's in just a new kind. That's the thing. It's a new kind of phrenology Where we're just thinking like Oh, yeah, well, we're not saying black people commit more crime But everyone with every characteristic of a black person will commit more crime and it's not our fault So but actually it like it's even worse than that the people who who support this kind of tool mosaic north points tool Do explicitly go they they are the the Charles Murray bell curve types who go no, no, no

What what's happening here is that big data has proven that black people do commit more crimes And that these these tools are just building that proof that fact that you can't argue with just building that into the system And so they you know, if you show them if you go, hey This this algorithm is systematically recommending harsher sentences for one race than another the response isn't like Ah, but we thought we'd engineered that out of the system. The response is good. Cool. That's clearly right The ai has successfully determined that black people have a low criminal nature and need to go to jail more It's well, it's trying to sort of cloak prejudices and stuff in the language and

systems of objectivity Like well, it's the algorithm did it. So I got and I do think like The I'm not like some cyber utopian guy. In fact, yeah cyber dystopian Guy player here. Yeah But I think like the the trouble with that what what the sort of person that you were describing earlier Is principally focused on the fact that they will do lots of thinking about where this goes in the future And entirely ignore the reality of the past, right? And it's I think that the important thing is working out a position where we can get to where we can marry

A realization of the systems and structures that were in the past that have contributed towards data being what it is now And then at least having an awareness of how that impacts things Going forward it requires I think it requires two things it requires a really really robust and self critical analysis of history And it requires a very very strong class analysis in my opinion That you have to understand the ways in which In which economic pressure is what's often go unacknowledged because their thought of is natural by many people Work on influencing behavior

And the ways in which our decisions about who counts as human and who doesn't Have also influenced behavior and if you don't have those two things Then you will think that society is just natural and everything is natural and we can't do anything and we can't get any better And there are people who misbehave because that's just in their nature And we have to control punish or mold them And that there is this idea of there is the us who are the full humans and the them who aren't And I do quite like the idea of There being like something inherent because it makes me feel like I might have magical powers

Like I like the idea that for summary like my grandfather in the 1960s had the superhuman ability to negatively affect house prices No, like dude, that's so impressive. Like it's just like what you just what you exuded some sort of pheromone or something amazing But see I'm like I am trolling people by like viewing houses He could run such a good protection racket if I will not come to view your house Like I am I I think there is literally that sort of thing did literally exist to prevent people from ethnic minorities moving into areas Oh, yeah redlining in the states. They call it redlining. It's crazy They uh nice neighborhood you got here. Be ashamed if someone like me would have moved into it

I like I I think then you need to have a bit more attention though on the the technological Ground structure of all of this because what what what there is what this is is it's not a lack of understanding of the uh racist past of respectively Durham and the entirety of America uh Especially Durham in America in America. Fuck you've got it bad. Um

Sorry, North Carolina. Love to North Carolina except the racist So I love to like about a quarter of North Carolina. Um what you've got is uh You've got you've got a technology which is fundamentally built on large data scales And my my favorite example the one I always come back to with this is uh translation Um specifically a translation example of Turkish to English because Turkish unlike English Has far fewer and there's going to be a Turkish listener listening to this and sorry I'm going to butcher the grammar of your language. Uh

Turkish doesn't have a gendered third person pronoun English has he she they Turkish just has they or he or she Or it or um Similarly, you don't have like gendered endings to words all of which means that the Turkish uh, or be a hams here is That axon was almost certainly fucked but that is the the praising of it. Um

Literally translates to he or she is a doctor Or he or she or he or she is a nurse uh In every single machine learning translation between English And Turkish or be a hams here will be translated as she is a nurse Because the examples of over here say being translated to she is a nurse over the corpus of joint English Turkish texts Are far far far higher than the examples of it being translated to he is a nurse because historically

Nurse has been a gendered occupation and translators have translated it in a gendered way But there is a ground truth for that. This is the difference between translation and Criminal history is there is a ground truth. It is incorrect to translate that in a gendered way You are just wrong But nonetheless the way these translations algorithms work is you can't reach in And tweak it and go oh by the way actually This shouldn't be translated. It has to be done based on the historical data And so you end up with this system that it's not as simple as knowing that you've got a problem

Anyone you speak to who works in machine translation will know this is an issue But they just have they put their hands up and they go, ah We've got a basic on the past data and if you can find us an unbiased data source fine But otherwise we're going to do the best we can and that's the problem that we've got That's the future we're building towards is one where people know That they're training on on biased on racist on sexist data sets and they go What are you on you don't want the future? No

The weirdest thing is then when you translate he a phrase like he is a curd back into turkish It comes back as he or she is a grave danger to regional stability Well, this sounds like a trash future Also, it sounds like we've been going for a full hour and a half And Nate thinks it's a crime against humanity to do a podcast that's over an hour. Oh, I agree. He is correct So I think it might be time For me to say thank you to jin sang for our theme song. Here we go You can find it on spotify. I strongly suggest you listen to it

also to remind you that Our shirts are available on lil comrad.com You can order anything any text you want. We do ship internationally And I strongly recommend that you purchase one and also to say thanks to Alex and ahir for being here today one last go around with uh star spangled banner And uh, thank you to mylo for being in the ball not even acknowledged And now

I did it All right, uh, so sure. No, anyway, fine. Um, also, uh, can people still vote for us for the british podcast? Oh, yeah, there's the british podcasting awards. We totally forgot to plug that Yeah, vote for us for the british podcasting awards you have until the 12th of may I'm gonna put the link in the description, you know the podcast with the canadian and the guy in russia All right, um judging on when people listen Judging by when people listen to our environment against trash future Judging by when people most often listen to this enjoy your commute everybody

Bye You