TRASHFUTURE - Thurrock Confidential ft. Gareth Davies

Episode Date: September 24, 2023

The Bureau of Investigative Journalism's very own Gareth Davies joins the gang to talk about a smooth businessman who decided to create generational wealth by transferring the entire budget for social and community services of Thurrock Council into his own bank account. And, of course, the one man who helped him by being too stupid to realise what was going on. If you want access to our Patreon bonus episodes, early releases of free episodes, and powerful Discord server, sign up here: https://www.patreon.com/trashfuture  *STREAM ALERT* Check out our Twitch stream, which airs 9-11 pm UK time every Monday and Thursday, at the following link: https://www.twitch.tv/trashfuturepodcast *WEB DESIGN ALERT* Tom Allen is a friend of the show (and the designer behind our website). If you need web design help, reach out to him here: https://www.tomallen.media/ *MILO ALERT* Check out Milo’s upcoming live shows here: https://www.miloedwards.co.uk/live-shows Trashfuture are: Riley (@raaleh), Milo (@Milo_Edwards), Hussein (@HKesvani), Nate (@inthesedeserts), and Alice (@AliceAvizandum)

Hello everyone and welcome to this free episode of TF. It's the free one. There we go, I paused room to say it, being recorded from the past. May they all record recorded in the past. This relative to the listener. God's to explain how linear time works. Yeah, once again, we are explaining how linear time works. Because when you're listening to this,

if you're listening to it in the day, it comes out. Allison Milo are both away because somebody didn't update the holiday tracker that we have because we are a legitimate business that happened sort of by accident. It's a what? It's a what? We are also very happy to welcome our guest, it's Gareth Davis from the Bureau of Investigative Journalism, who I think might be the most hated person of one guy. Gareth, welcome to the show. I mean, not maybe not one guy.

There's probably others, right? I'm gonna say so, sure. Yeah, no, thanks for having me on. Yeah. So we've also got him. He's the answer. We've got Liam Cavittal also calling in from an undisclosed location.

Yeah. He's gonna be providing valuable balance. Where WinGarath says that he basically absconded with hundreds of millions of pounds in British public money. Mr. Kavanaugh will be here to say, no, I don't. That's right.

So you've for the Bureau of Investigative Journalism, written a series of articles, and I'm going to lead us into it, actually, by reading a press release, not one of yours, from 2016. UK investor, Rockfire Capital, has acquired the 60.9 megawatts, Swindon Solar Park in England from developer WeLink Energy. The plant, one of the largest in the UK, was built by British solar renewables in a site near Swindon and Wiltshire.

It will provide a UK bank with renewable energy at a fixed price for at least a decade thanks to a 15-year power purchase agreement. Rockfire said the main investors in the solar park include warring to new him and Thorick Barrow councils. They are among the first UK authorities to invest in clean tech bonds. It said, without giving any financial details of the deal. Rockfire Chief Executive Liam Kavanaugh said, we are delighted to have completed the successful purchase of the solar farm.

And we have long been advocates of renewable energy and offer a range of ways, both institutions and individuals to invest in the sector, which has included the UK's largest renewables, many bonds that offer 6% returns. Now, Yarroth, how amazing is this investment and how can we and our listeners get involved? I mean, if you read it like that, it sounds, it sounds an incredible opportunity, right? Too good to be true almost. It is so incredible that, you know, Thorick Council at the time didn't tell anyone that you're doing it until about three or

four months after it was signed off. And that's always the sign of a good deal, right? Oh, yeah. I mean, if you're going to, you know, make a load of money as a local authority and invest it and back in the services, It's all good news. You should not tell anyone. Yeah, well, that's because the, you know, the voters in Thurick, they're very focused. You'll, Farrak, stick to fucking lakeside, stick to what you do best. We've got the in two shopping center. We've got, we've got, we've not got John Lewis. We've got a Debanum's RIP. We've got an Asafrazer. What else do you need? There's a Lakeland. So, So, if you're doing microtargeted Essex, we do have all those things.

Farrak is a big part of my, and probably your life, Milo, growing up. Yeah, it was a place of the future. I will be reminiscing a bit during this episode. There's a big Costco. And that might be a place of no future, unfortunately. Shame. So we're doing sort of like origin stories, right?

So like we did a bromly focused one with Captain Gatsso. Yeah. And now we're going into Essex. And we're doing Tharic. The investment sort of prospectus press release I talked about this, as you sort of procedurally say, seems too good to be true. And such a good investment that you would invest in it, and then frantically try to cover losses from that investments with other investment, which I hear is an amazing strategy for Roulette.

Yeah. And I assume it applies. If you throw good money after bad, what happens is that the good money sticks to that bad money and it kind of glums together and a bit heat, but then you can just like pull back out with your hands. It's like the old trick where you tie a coin around your finger and put it into a vending machine. That's what you can do with throwing good money after bad So so why I read that press release

um is that recently I think a lot of this stuff has come to a head Where I'll sort of try and summarize this and garret you can tell me what I've missed um this firm rock fire capital owned by uh Liam Kavanaugh uh this fellow, has now gone out of business, and it has now come to light that a number of UK councils have lost hundreds of millions of pounds that has essentially gone into the pockets of this one guy. And all around this idea of councils investing in clean tech bonds, quote unquote,

related to these solar farms that were actually not amazing. Is that kind of a fair summary? You've probably been slightly unfair to the solar farms, actually. In itself, it wasn't a Ponzi scheme. These things existed. And while all things are good, they actually made a bit of money for the council. I think it's also really a story about how in local authority, it's one guy, it's council officer, kind of got into fire over his head, you know, so for a few years,

I mean, there was always an issue of not telling people what they were doing with these vast sums of their money. But it not really being qualified to know, you know, how it's qualified to invest all of this stuff, but it really came to the real problem is when they started investing beyond simply giving this guy loads of money to buy soda farms when there weren't any new soda farms involved and he just simply came back and asked for more money and they inexplicably handed it over. Well, because that's the solar farms guy. We assume he's got more of them somewhere, you know. He's growing the sun. That's the guy who turns the sun on in the morning and turns it off in the evening, I'm pretty sure.

Yeah. So just like inadvertently reinventing like a sun cult in Essex just on the back of like one council office. Well the thing is in Ferret we follow sort of pre-secretic philosophical methodology we can't believe in the work of a raclottist that you know the sun and moon exist in a kind of dichotomy one bids the other good evening and and sinks below the earth's horizon and then the other appears and they you know they live in the same house and they do opposite shifts. Yeah this guy goes to Thara counsellors like hailed as a polo or ra. Yeah yeah yeah. Liam Kavanaugh is building himself a great pyramid in the middle. Oh, he's built a pyramid or I. Yeah, it has a depenemps in that. Yeah. The depenemps prize shops pyramid. So what happened as we sort of alluded to is that the is councils mainly

thorac but then thorac bought a number of other ones in was going to find you know, a fund the construct, the sort of operation of this solar farm outside of Swindon. And then, as you alluded to, Gareth Kavanaugh from Rockfair Capital went back to Theric to then buy like 50, 55 sites across the UK, paying out a total of 655 million pounds, 138 million pounds of which is now missing. And Theric led a kind of investment consortium, almost like a avon situation of investment in these sites. I think it's even worse than that, because initially it was Thoric and a few other councils,

but over time it was only Thorick left in the game. They took over all the other council's investments. Up to a point, it was about half a billion pounds. And then it was this stage where it's managed to convince Thorick to give him all this money to buy these solar farms. And he wants to know how to make even more money. It knows that he's talking to someone who is open to it, susceptible, gullible, goes back to him and says, look, there's no new solar farms here, but you put more money in

to these bonds, you get more money out, so give us 50 million. So if you're another account of, you're saying, I don't know, Warrenton Council on your end on this. You don't have to be sort of like less gullible than him. You just have to be less gullible than Thurick Council. And so long as you can do that, they will pick up the tab for everybody. That's what they did. I think it's a certain point. It's amazing. Warrenton decided to get out, you know, to sell up basically.

And Thurick was more than willing to take their shit. So I want to talk a little bit about, um, some of the people involved in the mechanics of what actually went on before talk getting sort of deeper into Kavanaugh, what he did, what he did with the money and so on and so on. So she money, good things. Oh, yeah, of course. Um, you actually invested it in services and Thorek more effectively than good things. Oh yeah, of course. You actually invested it in services and thoric more effectively than the direct with itself, whatever. Yeah, we just we privatized all of Thoric Council and created a kind of like appalonian God king over there. I'll tell

you what you should see. The way he's renovated the footlocker. I've never seen it so good. So so before we get to Liam Kavanaugh, and this is actually, long-term listeners of this show will know that wild financial schemes like this often just depend on one guy. Sometimes an Australian man. If you recall Green Sill, we talked about Green Sill for years, and then almost for sort of amazed towards the end of the saga, but it turned out that how much of what Green Seal managed to do really just depended on one Australian insurer being like, yeah, okay, I'll write that risk. And then when he was fired, Green Seal collapsed.

Yeah, I'm out of sight of quite a disseying. Oh no. But in this case, our one man, our one man is Sean Clark from Thurick Council So tell me a little bit about Mr. Clark. How did he come to know Kavanaugh? How did he how was he put in this position where he's managing a like hedge fund amount of money, but like as just a guy? I mean, he's Sean Clark. He's a chief financial officer of the REC Council, which is a kind of each local authority has to have someone in his position, they call it, you know, if you're

on board, we're in council to all the Section 151 officers, a statutory position. He's the guy who kind of manages the council's finances, not an elected person, a council official member of staff, a senior member of staff at council. He gets put in touch with Liam by Warrington council, they've done a bit of business with Rockfire and Liam and noted that Thorek had a director of finance who was wanting to bring in probably new ways of bringing extra money

and the kind of recall we were, we still kind of are in the, completely in the mirror of austerity, local authorities budgets being cut, their ability to raise money in, in kind of non-riskly ways, sort of stand ways, quite restricted, council tax increase caps, you know, business rates are variable. So, just looking to bring it extra money. This guy's, you know, he's got some qualifications, as he's not expect, but nowhere on his CV has he managed an investment portfolio excess of 500 million pounds,

as you'd be not surprised to hear. And he wouldn't be for long as it turned out. But it's not just that. You know, he also comes across this genius idea of, you know, it's not just having wanting to do the investments. You've obviously got to find the money from somewhere. And I think most listeners who wonder where an earth or local authority, a cash trap local authority,

managed to find half a billion pounds. In fact, far more than that. You know, he's actually an incredible situation where he borrowed it from other councils. Oh my God. Sorry, this just isn't even a country anymore. This is just like a hundred something councils handing around the same money. Yeah, and they didn't matter to them where the money was going, because he was paying them back by borrowing from other councils. So there's a perpetual state of, you know, borrowing from Peter to repay poor. We're talking like tens of millions of pounds on month long loans. It's an insane situation. Absolutely bonkers.

This is soprano stuff. All the councils are sitting around in the back of the pork store. They're like, you need money, talk to Polish rap shit. Yeah, I'll give it to you, 4% big. But I want those bags full on Friday nights. So this works, I guess, so long as the money never stops moving. And the money can then stop moving by the expedient of what anyone asking any questions about this.

Well, you think, but we write but we wrote about this for four years. A lot of questions have asked. It took a lot of those questions for someone to start actually paying proper attention. Yeah, once the house of cards starts, once one card is taken away, it all starts to fall. And that is ultimately the collapse of the council because when we write these stories about the ridiculous ways in which this none is being used by Mr Cabinett, council's finally caught on and have warned to stop lending money to Thurick and the business model that he's a degenerate fucking gambler. the Sean Carc has created. This turned him, or briefly turned him into what was heralded is or he heralded himself as the savior of Thurak Council.

It collapses and you find a self in a situation and find it now, which is one of the biggest scandals in local government history. Local services on its knees, people facing decades of tax increases. And yeah, because of the risks and the achievements of this one individual, of course, and the money to business with. They're busting out, Starrick Council, they're going into the schools, they're selling off all the chairs. All the make up to that. If they're having to, these sort of like austerity matches, the sort of like local government bankruptcies, which are Birmingham's about to enter, these, they're not nice, you know? It's, I think it's also worth asking now, even before we sort of go into the character

of Kavanaugh, tearing people, the chairs out of the schools and the school just collapses because it's made of really weak concrete. Actually a load bearing chair. The schools all burn down under mysterious circumstances. Just like, oh, get to that. Yeah. These schools seem to have a lot of ignition points in their fire. I could absolutely believe the Tory government setting fire to Britain for the insurance money. That is a pull. That is a pull, it's a whole way out for them. So, I think that's before we go into Kavanaugh as well, I think it sort of fits what we're talking about. Clark is, well, why do councils, it's worth asking.

Like, no other, as far as I'm aware, there's no other country that has its local government engaged in gambling to fund schools and then collection. Okay, well, yeah, maybe Monica. Monica doesn't put it on black. It is. Yeah, they are the house like if you're going to if you're going to fun, they tried to do the thing of funding government from gambling revenue, but like as a gambler. Yeah, yeah, come on. Just one more roll. We've gotten a guy who plays 40 games of poker stars online at once

to be our new finance officer. But this is true. There is no, as I'm aware, like Canadian municipalities don't fucking do this. You know, they, in Canada in the States, it's more ordinary for municipalities to sell bonds, right, and then pay them back with tax revenue or with central government money. And then if, and to invest in things, maybe investing in things that are inside the boundaries of the

local area in order to say own their own facilities. But the idea of that's again, this is not just thoric. This is lots and lots of councils right before COVID went on a huge shopping spree purchasing office and retail properties. Yeah. Like just, you know, you want to know who the exit liquidity was for like, I don't know, Brookfield owning some dead mall and Croydon, it was most likely a British council, which is great. Yeah, because it does sort of raise the question. If you, if you've got 500 million quid to spend of other people's money and, and you

want to own a soda farm to get the returns. Why are you paying some guy to build, you could just go and buy a solar farm? Yep, that's a good point. That's what Warrington eventually decided they were going to do. Don't give him money too many more and get in the business of their own. I mean, trying to get your head around the rationale behind this stuff is pretty impossible. You're doing it for several years and not help by the fact that the guy himself with people involved, they don't want to talk, they don't explain this. How surprising.

There's no document in the public domain as you would expect when a local authority spends you know, 600 million pounds explaining the rationale and the risks involved. It was, you know, they wouldn't even release this stuff and the freedom of information. And what I was saying is that, you know, who falls for like too good to be true deals is desperate people. Is this is not the first and will not be the last tale of a council that gets into a situation like this because they need to start gambling to cover their bills. So I did a little more just sort of just for context. You know, this is ever since like the late teens 2020-ish,

Parliament has been sort of concerned about council, local council's investment activities. This is from the Collins Public Accounts Committee. They say that there's concerns that councils have exposed themselves to commercial investments, which risk cuts in local services and a big bill of taxpayers for no return. For financial pressure on local authorities' budget, combined with long-standing encouragement to invest in commercial enterprises to bring in income. So this is basically the Tory answer to austerity, which is...

I was going to say, like, encouraging from whom. This is like sort of a serial killer taunting the police. Yeah. It's going to say, Tory MPs being concerned about the investment practices of local councils in the UK is quite a lot like Pablo Askebar being concerned about concoque and consumption in Miami in the 1980s. It's like, it's sort of like, hmmm. They say, that new debt taken on by councils has ballooned commercial and risky investments in commercial property by 14 times between 2017 and 2020.

It risk investments in commercial properties from 2017 before COVID when these things were highly overvalued. It multiplied by 14. This time bomb I think is just beginning to explode as well. This is just an example with an extremely flamboyant and weird character at the center in the form of Liam County. That type of doesn't go off near any schools

because they'll fall right down. Yeah. So they say that this, and this is because redocked between 2010 and 2020, central government grants to local councils have reduced by 40% but demand is only increased. So of course you're going to gamble because your income is fixed, you can't find any other money. Demand for your service is increasing and across the political spectrum, everyone just looks at it and

says, I don't know, have you considered automating something reforming or bringing in the private sector? They've, of course, they're desperate and of course it's not like a real box. Yeah, at the same time, they've got to look after the most vulnerable people in society. They can't turn around and explain why they can't provide special educational needs, provision, or why they can't look after adult's of learning disabilities. They've got, that's a statutory duty, those people can't go without. And so, yeah, when they don't have any other option, it's inevitable that, you know, some local authorities are going to say that risk. I mean, I put forward that, that Thoric doesn't perfectly fit

this, you know, kind of explanation because of local councils, they were not as far, anywhere near as far down the line as this, I think this is as much an exercise in wanting to appear to be clever and to come across a solution that others hadn't. I think if you look through the way in which the Tory Council there, Councillors, responded as concerns were raised about what they were doing, this wasn't a, you're right, we need to look into this, but we had good intentions. We really need to make sure these services are well provided. This was we're going to laugh in your face and you don't know what you're talking about and the only thing we're worried about is someone's going to come and poach our brilliant director of finance.

Fun. I'm kind of curious to about what the oversight for this is. Is it a meant to look like and be in this case, as you kind of hinted at, like, actually shook out? It basically, you know, Councils basically police themselves these days. Oh, cool. So, okay. The very, sorry, the kind of,

they used to be an audit commission, it wasn't perfect. It was, you know, touched in their bonfire, the crimeos back then by, you know, by Cameron. And, and, you know, the local audit system isn't worth the paper. It's written on there, you know, they've overworked, underpaid, don't really give a shit. And so it's left down to local councillors. And, you know, there are some exceptions but largely they are you know

at best underqualified at worst utterly and totally useless and as they were in in Thuruk their jobs were to scrutinize what Sean Clark as director of finance was doing and you had these individuals standing up in council meetings and actually stating it's not our job to check how Council offices spend our money. So that system that was supposed to be in place, those checks and balances utterly failed. And if you go to, if you push a bit further

and you go to the government, what did you do? And they'll say, well, I've something that me accountability at a local level is about the ballot box. You know, if people don't like one, you know, their council is doing, they'll, you know, they'll vote them out. But of course, if people don't have the foggiest, what their council is doing, because, you know, a council doesn't, you know, abide by any sort of transparency rules. They hide everything it's going on. I wonder if they're supposed to vote them out. Well, I'm very helpful to vote them out

after they've robbed the place either. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's also kind of a producer's situation because local councils benefit from being in possibly the most unsexy arm of government to the extent where no one is interested in what they're up to. You rely on paid professionals being interested because people in the public sphere are not going to be interested. No one was interested in this story for the two years that I was writing

until Kevin has started buying his jets and his mansions and his crystals, and the leaves. Yeah, because I was going to say that there's a lot of council, as you sort of alluded to, like lots of councils are kind of in this position. And one of the things that was one of the interesting bits of, I was thinking about while I was reading your investigation, is really this like broader political context of like council sort of being told during your austerity years, but like you know, you just got to think, you've got to think of innovative ways in order

to kind of run and to function and to provide services. Like, Credence is a really good example of like, wherever real impacts of this are being spread out. So the point you made about the council's not being transparent because their understanding is that voters, if they don't like what the council's doing, they'll vote them out. But that runs contradictory to how councils are supposed to be perceived. By which I mean, like isn't it's their sort of like broader political impetus for like a good council is one that doesn't quote and quote like waste your money, right? And so if a council is being seen as like

saving money by making efficiencies by investing like externally, then actually, like they can use that to politic. And I wondered what your thoughts were on how, whether like incidents like this can happen because you have a much broader political, like the political system post austerity has been one, which measures the effectiveness of councils not on the types of services or how many of these services they produce and how many people benefit from that, but whether or not they are sort of quote unquote like value for money. Yeah, whether they're keeping the lives on. Right. I think while this seemed to be working, there wasn't a great clamor from the public or from

opposition councillors to really scrutinise what was going on. And for the local people, I don't blame them. You see, they would have been seeing stories across the country of, you know, really key services being cut. Building's being delivered, it's being closed. Children's centres, you know, disappearing. And, you know, it's not happening in Thorek. It just seems pretty good. Yeah, so I was going to say that's the other thing too, like as it sort of trickles down.

So like, there are people, you know, where sort of austerity begins, like, you know, it's really hard to sort of notice, especially in places like Farrak, where I can imagine, you know, there are lots of people who are homeowners, who are like Tory voters, and so those issues don't really sort of kind of become

present until really just around about now, when you notice that the roads are not in good condition and things just don't function. These things that were always issues before, now they've degraded so much and now the council are saying that we can't actually afford to do these very basic things. In this situation, because a guy has swindled them out of all the money that they've got left. So I want to go on just to one more sort of thing before we get to sort of Kavanaugh and how the actual deal work, which is what we've been talking about, councils,

council officers, these are people who are frequently paid, I don't know, 30, maybe 80, like 80k at the top, 80k is a lot of money. but the people who are paid to actually manage investments tend to be paid millions of pounds a year to manage investments. They tend to have large teams, they tend to have Bloomberg terminals. And so what essentially has happened is the central government created a need and an incentive

for councils to start investing like they are asset management firms. Yeah, run your own private hedge fund on the cheap. Yeah, use people from the town. Yeah, well, the capital is a business degree. They trim a lot of hedges, so why not become a hedge? But the actual people, like the people who, if you want to run a successful asset management firm, you need to pay a large group of people gigantic amounts of money as a part of some kind of

like extravagant, Tory sex criminal. Like that kind of thing isn't available to like most people. And even a lot of them turn out to be Ponzi's games in the end. Yeah. a lot of them turn out to be Ponzi's games in the end. But essentially what you're doing is you're expecting, you know, Bob from the council to be able to smell the kinds of things that like sharks at hedge funds are supposed to. So of course, if you want to go after big easy money, then of course you're going to go to councils because they're staffed by people who aren't paid enough To see through the any obfuscations that you might put up in front of it You're not going to get fucking like I know the hedge fund from the big short to invest in Liam Kavanaugh's solar farms

Basically, you know what I mean? Yeah, the good news is there's tons of councils who have a ton of assets because they run all the stuff And you know, they're all right for the picking. So, um, yeah. So if anyone's listening to any of those councils, consider the trash use your Patreon. Right, right. Every time we have, we can save you for five pounds a month with this, you know, piece of financial advice, we can save you upwards of like hundreds of

millions of millions of years. Yeah, we're kind of like the scam checker. Well, if you listen to us regularly, you'll know about the flim flams that are going on in your area. Yeah, we could have gotten you out, we could have gotten the government out of Green still early. So let's talk a little more about that. That's the thing though, that's why they had to do it in secret and that's why they

had to have this sort of cloak of obscurity and boringness to it is because like, there's a lot of people who I think would be able to look at this and go, hold on a second, why though? Like, I have some sort of, some hesitancy about this. I want to talk a little bit more about Kavanaugh himself, like where did he come from? What was he like? How did he sort of come into this business? What does he like as a character? And I'm also interested because we keep seeing this again and again and again. I think Lex Greencil is the same type of person. This economic agent, this class of persons, or been an economic sense. Tell me a little bit about sort of Kavanaugh, and how he came to get into this business. Well, you know, he prior to doing, he just sold a farm deals with the council,

he had no previous experience of doing, you know, renewable energy deals at all. Something you had in common with his investors. Pretty much. You know, he was, I mean, kind of, there's a recording of him again, driven by his PA to his privately funded private jet, and it was leaked to us. And you can kind of tell the man where he's come from from this conversation that he's having with us. He doesn't believe his luck.

He's saying like, you know, 10 years ago we were sitting in a fucking car park, smoking a fag. You know, you've basically averaged Joe kind of stuff. And in the forest, all that time, he's suddenly, he's got this, you know, palatial mansion in Hampshire, used to be one of Jane Austen's favorite haunts. He's got a place in Dubai, he's got a private jet, you got two yachts. So before, before Thorick, you know, he'd been, he'd been involved in a few

investment schemes and gone particularly well, sort of shrouded in a bit of mystery. People who spoke into about it weren't particularly keen to talk about him. I think he takes an advertisement now in the FT, looking for public funding for his, you know, to create a solar farm empire, the Rides bonds that have got good returns. First time he would appear in the FT, but not the last. Not the last. Aerya Man seeks robes. I doubt he even thought, you know, in his wildest dreams that that initial deal that he did with with Warrenton and later on With Thorough and a couple of other London boroughs would eventually see him, you know, mass this this empire solar farms or all petapina bought and paid for by the taxpayer

So is a is a is a pre Is I'm fairly unremarkable story really up until the point he gets involved with the third? It's in that we talk about this guy as like an economic agent, what they all have, like Lex Greensell had the same thing, is an understanding that in order in nowadays, the written especially, the way to get rich here, what we do is middleman things. We own them, we buy them, we sell them, we cut them up into tranches, we securitize them and so on. Crucially, short cons. You do this for a while, you do this for a few years, and then maybe it goes wrong,

maybe it doesn't, if it doesn't, you keep going, and if it does, you just fuck off to do buy. Or like screensill, you retire to your sort of country estate where you you know, played the most dangerous game. And even then, like, it's not necessarily even accurate to say cons, because what's remarkable is that even if sort of the values of some of the solar prime properties may have been overstated, you know, that very lit, like, it doesn't seem like Liam Kavanaugh actually broke the law. Like, he did something, in fact, the kind of thing that he did is implicitly,

or indeed explicitly, in terms of these local governments being encouraged to essentially gamble with the school budget, you know, this is he just stepped up and filled a quite legitimate role that only happens to be ruinous for everyone involved except him. You do sound a bit like his lawyer. Yeah. That is the point. That is the point that they put across, you know, and there, you know, in some cases I can see an argument for it.

I would put forward that, you know, deliberately inflating the value of something that you're wanting 50 million, 130 million pounds for is in some interpretations for it. So I do think there's a very strong possibility that this isn't all awful. But certainly there is enough uncertainty or enough of a gray area where he feels like he's been able to do this and get away with it.

And look, you know, so far, the authorities aided and abetted by my thought council that it's spent, it's spent years denying that anything was wrong. And then the preceding period, you know, doing everything it can not to say that it's been a victim of anything. There's certainly that that has helped, you know, strengthen this idea that, you know, actually, you know, it's pretty legitimate. But he didn't really do anything wrong. He played fast and loose, but ultimately the errors, the mistakes are Sean Clark, the director of finance and Thuricks, and there's definitely a kind of it's definitely true. But I would I'd come back on the point where I do I do think that there's there's strong very strong evidence to just that there is some you know something unlawful and allegedly I should put it allegedly. I mean we as a you know is it it's probably difficult to

to recognize this without knowing kind knowing what goes on behind the scenes when it comes to producing journalism like this. With that intro that we put for the last story and I'll just read it out for Parrot's point. A rogue businessman appears to have cheated a council in Essex out of as much as £130 million and spent the money on a life of luxury and potentially the largest fraud ever committed against the UK local authority. The level of work and evidence that goes but it goes into getting a statement like that in print is colossal. It proves that

we have a lot of team of very kind of, you know, diligence, lawyers and fact checkers, we wouldn't be, you know, publishing that without a very, very strong evidence belief that the law has been broken. But I do think you're right in the sense that there is a kind of wider point about individuals like this. And it goes, you know, the creation of the circumstances where people like this can individuals can take advantage of the situation and there can be enough of a gray area to think that they can get away of it. So, and what I was also referring to as well is him saying, look, I bought all this, these

private jets, I bought this collection of guns, I bought this dinner plate-sized jewel hue blow. And all of that was fine because the council is not responsible. I'm not responsible for the council's due diligence on how I spend the money. And it's things like that as well. If he'd taken the piss, 5% less, right? The situation could be entirely different. I'd tell you what would make a difference from his behavior.

Yes, taking the piss definitely. I think the key being that led to this for him is not being an artist shit to every single person you work with. Right? Yeah. You started the program, I say, I'm hated more than what I won, particular individual, I tell you what everyone I've ever spoken to who worked for him said the same thing about him. You know, it got off the phone with someone who I spoke to a source, and the first thing he said to me was, I don't hate anyone in the world other than Liam Cabinna. And that was a response. You know, kind of everyone I spoke

to said the same, had the same stories. He's someone who, if he had just treated the people he worked with, a little bit better, phone him, not, you know, showed him some of the kind of, you know, they said at the time they didn't know that what he was doing was unlawful. He didn't really, he wasn't clear about his business, but he, you know, he splashed the cash for himself. He would sack people at, you know, the slightest, you know, slightest provocation, scream and shout out to people if you didn't get the right sandwich on his jet or whatever it was. All of these things out up over the years to create,

you know, these people who are willing, eventually, despite being under, you know, non-disclosure agreements, to speak, to journalists, and just a little bit of respect, a little bit of politeness, and a lot of this stuff doesn't come to light. I don't have to deal with it. It's just I'm going to go work for Jimmy Kimmel. Yeah. It's interesting, though, because we have this idea sometimes of like the catch me if you

can, kind of like Debenair, like fraudster, right? No. In this case, allegedly, it really does seem like, no, no. Instead, he would much rather have lived out this kind of, it's not even a fantasy because he had the things, but this kind of like this lifestyle and then also be a dick about it to ever around him, which is like, that's the kind

of thing that you see replicated all the way up, you know? And that's the thing that I think that you can get him on like emulating people, you know? You know who you see do that is this is just why people keep betraying Donald Trump. Because he would be like, oh, I'm not going to pay my lawyer, of course. Never. Yeah, I expect you to like go to prison for me. Also, I'm not going to pay my lawyer, of course. Never. Yeah, I expect you to go to prison for me. Also, I'm not going to pay you.

He's a bad lawyer. Why would I pay him? No. Have you seen him recently? He's bleeding his own skin. It makes no sense. No sense at all. Can we, I know we've sort of mentioned also

that this is one of the less consequential things about it other than to hit his sort of personal his sort of like personal downfall, if it even can be called a downfall. But can we talk about the Instagram account? Because I think it's like fun at least. You should say that the Instagram account that he denies having an involvement in. So someone's Instagram account that seems to have an unusual level of access to coincident with the activists of the reality. That's my ass.

No, it was created by a tattoo artist he knows. Yeah, okay. Without his knowledge. No further questions. Well, that's how he had access to his ass. So the Instagram account was called secret billionaire 777. And it's so neat when this happens. I have a tattoo, right?

And when I went in the tattoo artist was like, do you want me to create you a secret Instagram account where I document everything about your lifestyle? I was like, no, but like had I not been paying attention in that moment, I could have easily fallen into this situation. I like also that he's not actually a billionaire, so it's kind of aspirational.

Yeah, yeah, that's good. But that's where it is a fantasy. That's genuinely where it is. You take this money and you go to Dubai, you're $135 million, or pounds or whatever, where 135 million pounds is nothing to a lot of the people there. And you just kind of like post, I guess, or hang out in bars, I don't know. What do you do at that point? So I'll tell you some of the, this is all this, you're just from your article here, if you can tell me anymore, I'll just to set us off. But posts on the Instagram account included

a customized Lamborghini Aventador done by a YouTuber. Oh, it goes Abigail Sol. Yeah, that's cussed. The philosophy achieved Lamborghini. A Damien Hurst sculpture, private jets, jeweled huboes, guns, yachts, and a state in Hampshire. Did he have an original Dane Coutins? Well, he's gonna make a new one.

And also, he bought, and this set, I was, my raised and I brought this, that he bought and redecorated a flat in Bucharest, I, this, I was, my raised and I brow at this, that he bought and redecorated a flat in Bucharest, Romania, including a 240,000 pound spend on 25 TVs combined to do a huge screen, and 250,000 pounds in a rotating bed, so large a crane had to install it. I'm sorry. He combined 25 TVs into a huge, but like, you can buy very big TVs. Like, and it's an apartment.

Like, it's a projector even, like, how big, I don't understand how a screen could be so big that it required 25 separate TVs to construct, but also fit inside an apartment. Small TVs, what if they're really small TVs? Yeah, they're like 20 inch TVs. No, but, and also, yeah, buying and renovating a luxury flat in Bucharest with a rotating bed. Yeah.

I don't know where did Andrew and Tristan Tite live again? Just asking questions. Unrelated questions. Yeah. So let's talk a little bit about like the the lifestyle and he sort of, the lifestyle of sort of consumption, but also something he said really got to me, which was I'm going to start a family office and create generational wealth.

Let's talk a little bit. Last mobility, it's real for this one guy. I mean, that was his plan all along, as the email states, as you said, kind of make money, what it was unshines literally, and then I got off and transcend into this, I guess, the first office bear and be untouchable. I think the interesting thing about one of the interesting things about the Instagram

account was that actually at the time, those things that he's photographing, he doesn't own any of those things. This is this lifestyle he's portraying. This is actually before he gets his or not entirely, but when he gets these big injections of cash, not to buy the soda farms, but to like just increase the investment in a particular kind of poor photo of them. And then the council is basically handing him 50 million pounds at a time, basically no questions asked. Then he starts, the creates this, or through his tattoo artist, creates an Instagram account of peers with Coach Garcia of his house, they had nothing to do with, of course. But these objects, you know, that he doesn't actually own me. Yeah, I mean, he kind of goes on to buy a jet for himself.

The jet pitch is a charted one. He goes on to get all this kind of bling. But so much of the stuff there is actually kind of something he's trying to project that he wants. It's a rented hoop load. It's got to go back to the store at the manifesting it. Yeah. Yeah. And this is the, I mean, that's that that's like, we have a whole massive industry in this

country of selling that exact kind of aspiration, right? Like you have people on TikTok doing the same thing. I mean, this was part of Andrew Tate's deal too, was like a posing in front of cars. And before he owned those cars, he was posing in front of like cars that still had the like dealership sticker in the window. So, I mean, it works for some of them. I guess. I'm sure Andrew Tate of the Lamborghini dealership near Luton with a broom. He's in here again. Now, fuck off. I guarantee you, a Lamborghini dealer, like in somewhere around the OmbaGhini has done

that at some point, like in their life. The OmbaGhini's of Luton is a very cursed phrase. Yeah, the biome, I don't know. But we talk about also like this, this lavish lifestyle, his attitude towards people, an extraordinarily anti, seems extraordinarily anti-social, not just because of what he did to Thurick, but just interpersonally also. For the hooplo. Yeah.

Yeah. And it's also we can say, right? It's very, very betrayed of me. This is the kind of economic winner that was created out of, basically the transition to thatcherism, this idea that every, that the only way to win is to be a shark and only suckers do actual things. You, what you need to do is you need to middleman and you need to sell confidence. That are weapons to the Saudis, basically.

We're sort of the two games left in town. He's Britain's answer to you have any pre-goition, you know? Right. Yeah, honestly, yeah. He's turned his custom philosophy to Lamborghini on London and his leading on March and Prophecy developer. Yeah, like this is the British style of oligarch rather than becoming rich trading leave eyes

for Ross Neff chair selling hot dogs to the Russian army or whatever. Yeah, rather than doing that, you just understand that with increasingly cash-strap government is desperate for fixes to its problems and it's just going to turn on the spigot for you if you're charming and convincing enough. Not even charming enough. If you just seem like you will be a shark on their behalf and make someone else lose. That's really what we're left with, and that's that kind of alienation that is required for capitalism in general, but especially financialized capitalism. That is those in whom it lives, if it lives in your heart, right, that sort of emptiness, that emptiness that desires domination of rather than connection with other people, then

yeah, you are going to be the perfect economic actor. We have created that man as a winner Through the transformations in the country of the 19 years. So what you're saying is it really is like hustle mindset all along It's just that the hustle mindset kind of makes you a vampire. It's what essentially yes. I had to You know you could ask right? Wow is Lamborghini you know, you could ask, right? Wow, is Lambo Gini. Oh, Lambo Gini. No, you can ask, right? How was rock fire that different from G4S or Kappa?

I mean, he did move to Romania. Yeah. Yeah. Look at the size of my TV. Yeah, I'm sorry, Gareth, you've come on the wrong podcast. But no, the question really I'm sorry, guys, you've come on the wrong podcast. Yeah. But no, the question really I have is how is rock fire different from something like capita or G4S or churrillion? I get the massive beneficiaries, for example, of PFI contracts, whose executives also probably

live quite lavish lifestyles. They might be a bit more gentile than Liam Cabinot. They might be like, I don't know, better educated, but the difference really is, I think that Liam Kavanaugh takes the piss more, essentially. Yeah, yeah. He lacks the kind of like upper British social classes acumen to kind of like cover his tracks in the deft ways that the people at the top of those days. And I mean, looking to be to fair to Carrillion, you know, Rodin Derty was a tune. So, Gareth, how's that strike? He was an idea. I mean, you put it better in Hollywood.

I've been writing about the guy for so long, not in those, you know, I think as a journalist in those terms, quite often, it's the way you put it. He's a product of, to me, he's always been a product of austerity and the kind of pressure that I placed on local government to make ends meet, to still make sure that, you know, vulnerable kids and adults get the social care that they need while it's also being led drive of reaching whoever option. And there's bound to be, like you said, there's a wider trend towards these individuals who know that they can basically make a huge amount of money through very little work of their own. And those two things when you've got combined with councils are completely underqualified

and unable, in some cases, unwilling to ask the difficult questions. Again, I'm going to be able to call it forward and I enable, in some cases, I'm willing to ask the difficult questions. Yeah, I mean, again, I'm not able to put it quite as important as you are. Well, so let's move on a little bit. Just the last thing about Kavanaugh before we sort of end on Thurick and how they're doing. Where's Kavanaugh now? Is he holed up in his house in Hampshire?

Is he in Dubai? Is he in Bucharest? He's in his castle in Transylvania. Yeah. You've said, right? He sleeps the deathless sleep. You've said, right? Following our first story in 2020,

Calvin, I was caught in a dash cam planning more drastic action. Again, I guess we know how he was caught, right? Because that's how you know he's not a vampire because he shows up on a dash cam. But we know how he was caught because he's such a piece of shit that people can't stop leaking about him.

Yeah, yeah. Well, if you're a local council, you have to invite him in first and the trick is to not do so. It says, it says, well, being driven to an airport in Bournemouth to board his jet, he spoke of the need to document things

in order to protect everyone's interest in the money. Now, a bomb got dropped with this fucking article shit, but I'm not bothered now. I'm never gonna raise a pound from a local authority ever again. And then began to confirm the process of deregistering his companies. It started saying, get that done, get shit transferred over, get rid of fucking rock fire now, get rid of all this other bullshit.

So after he realized that like, you know, the dime was dropped and that people knew what he was doing, like, where did he go? What's he up to now? Where is he? So that's in discussing the process of restructuring his businesses in order to allegedly hide what he'd been doing with Derek's money. Eventually, he leaves basically out of the country

for most of the time he went to live in Dubai. A fast refuge of a scoundrel. When the council, for example, are inclined to finally catch up with him, by that point he sold that property and Dubai. He's already sold the jet, likely, flogged the super yacht as well. So I think that question of where he is, that's been traveling, traveling me for for several months, traveling the council I think as well as they're trying to understand file papers on him, as they should have

done possibly several, several years ago. I think he's certainly not, certainly not trying to sue us, which is something that he's notoriously the tigress he goes after people who speak out about him. We've seen written a very, very strongly worded ask or recently and haven't heard from him since. I think he's keeping his head down probably quite sensibly, trying to avoid any further attention. trying to avoid any further attention. Gareth's just getting BBC newsed by a very cute child. Yeah, I was going to say we're... It's one of the most delightful interruptions we've had actually.

A cute child covered in chocolate ice cream at the time. As they should be. It must also be like tremendously satisfying as a journalist, just on a personal level, to have the sort of target of an investigation on audio going, this guy has ruined me in an entirely justified way. You know? Yeah, it remains one of my favorite things from the story of everything. I think it would be very funny if Liam Cavanaugh

just shows up in my indoor castle with like Gerard Depardieu Edwards no damn Jan Marcelleck in the rain. Yeah, I mean, the thing is this is kind of now like a crime watch appeal. You know, have you seen this map? A crime watch. It's an alleged crime watch.

Have you allegedly seen this alleged map? I'd like to thank Jan Mar Aleku at my darkest moment. Let me come and live in his barrel. There is something quite interesting about media as well, just in the sense that it's taken, and I do wonder whether the lack of a local press, especially in places like Thurak, and whether if it's anything like the neighboring parts of Kent,

where I'm more familiar with, you don't really have much of a local press fat kind of has the capability and resources to look into something like this. And I do wonder whether some of this guys reactions to your investigation, how much of that do you think kind of comes as a result of just not even expecting to be investigated because there isn't really an

infrastructure that's ever really done it. Even papers that are better funded, the amount of time and resources that they have to cover council meetings and to cover what's actually going on in terms of local politics is so diminished that I wonder whether, yeah, I wonder what the relationship is between councils kind of like taking these, like do, or councils like Farrick, like doing this type of stuff on the basis of that, there isn't really like a mechanism of oversight. And this broader kind of result, then the resultantly just like disconnection from local communities in terms of like how their local authorities are even sort of governing the first place. Yeah, I mean, I could wax the vehicle

for probably hours about the decline of local journalism, because that's my background. You've mentioned coin a few times, I've probably about coin, portal on coin for about 10 years. And the same has happened there in, you know, that story's repeated across the country, you know, there are, it's undoubtedly this went on, you know, much longer than it would have done because of the terrible

state of the local press. There's a guy who runs a hyper-local blog there, but there's no journalists in the traditional media in those meetings looking through those reports, checking the accounts, putting the freedom information requests in, asking the tough questions, you know, putting, you know, holding the councils, you know, feet to the fire and saying, look, you know, you're crying about how good these things are, but I've, you know, done, I've looked into this and this rings alarm bells just for my, you know, my cursor, we're understanding about this stuff should work. And that is repeated across the country, you know, there are, of course, you know, my cursory understanding about this stuff should work. And that is repeated across the country.

You know, there are, of course, there are, you know, some very hard working, diligent local journalists out there, but they are, you know, hugely up against it. They work in an industry that's obsessed with, you know, clicks and terrible content, you know, driving outrage and shareable content, you know, driving outrage on social media and desperately chasing Tesco's advertising pounds and not doing the digging, the investment in the time and resources it takes. And it is pretty hard.

I've been working on this for since October 2019 and it was a hard self work from where I work and we do investigative work because you know Council's done 16, people tend to switch off when you talk about them but you know this, the other stuff you've seen in Croydon, you've seen it in Woking, you see it in Slow, stuff is going on Birmingham. All this stuff is, you know, just did not just have the kind of shit financial situation that local authorities in and the risk there,

they're kind of, you know, they're being forced into taking, but the, you know, the lack of transparency and they wanted to hide this stuff and the lack of challenge from the good local press when it happens and it will happen again. Loop holes have been closed but there will be new ones because vulnerable kids, you know, to say all that else, all these things, all these people need, still need help.

But lawfully, they still need to be, all this service is need to be paid for and there doesn't appear to be any political will on both sides, you know, from any side. Yeah. and there doesn't appear to be any political will on both sides, you know, from any side. Yeah, sort of. It's that. The only option is to keep relying on the councils to make the hard decisions because it's easier to push it onto them, that is to recognize this whole system is broken, and it needs proper funding. If you need to fund care for the disabled and you need help and you can find him. Maybe you can hire the Lamborghini vampire. I want to talk before we end. I want to talk a little bit just about the fallout for on Thurick, where we're saying that one local resident was quoted as saying,

we're lucky if our bins are emptied at the moment at all on our road. And my council tax is already 2,000 pounds a year. And they've actually stopped collecting all garden waste bins. Basically the bins. The British politics, it all comes back to bins. Once I come to the bins, that's when the paper are on the fucking streets. I'll tell you that. School's collapsing is one thing, but the bins. But that also includes, they've cut buses, regional buses that now have left lots of, especially

elderly residents who have towns around Thurac with no way to get into the city to go to things like doctor's appointments. Literally just no way. You just can't go now. You have to get a taxi, which you can't afford, or just be like, well, okay, I suppose that's just doctors' office I won't be going to. It now cost more to To get buried or have your ashes in turn to cost more to get married

Yeah, no, that's that's really great Also, the starry cycle of samsara where you're trapped in this life and to you've earned enough money to die Yeah, the the carers and community nurses for NHS now cost 150 pounds a year instead of 120 for hospitals. Temside theater is likely to close, although performance charges are also up. And so basically what has happened is- It gets more expensive, it's also closed. Liam Kavanaugh has essentially had a whip-round thorac and taken a few hundred quid from everybody and that's sort of it and

now he has like a private jet made a few blows. You can consolidate that into one private jet, you know? Yeah, that's essential looks like the picture which is low is we haven't even seen the cut the cuts to the services really truly begin in thorac this is just the beginning. Exactly. That's just the beginning of the service. We're talking decades. What's more likely to happen, I think, is that Theric is a council just won't exist anymore. It'll just have to delete it and reboot and it'll become the district of Essex. At some point down the line, a decision-maker will give the OK to writing this whole thing off. They'll quietly drop the case if there ever will be a case

or an attempt to get something that's money back. Because ultimately, this is all, for a long time, it's been about reputation and about not wanting to prolong the embarrassment of the local authority and by extension the conservative government was this a Tory local authority. So yeah I think it's an incredibly bleak future and you know they say lessons have been learned they're going to tell people but what are you about lying there they've not really been clear about what you've said there either that's kind of piecing together bits and pieces

of stuff this this come out in kind of a obscure government report, a court council report that no one reads. They're still withholding information despite everything that's happened about, you know, how this is actually gonna affect people. And also people are gonna pay the price for Kevin as yet, is, you know, who blow watch, is Crystal Shandlelea as in his rotating bed, you know,

the people of Thoreau, and further, right? We say lessons will be learned, but funding for local authorities is only decreasing relative to the services that they're going to need to provide. Don't worry, I'm sure Kistum was committed to changing that, right? So the gambling is everyone in Thoreau should get to where they hear blow watch for a day, and have a go on the rotating bed. I think that's a fair solution and the right one for the people of Therak. Yeah, the gambling is only going to increase because you're left with no option but to put

it all on red. That's it. You have statutory obligations, so that would have no funding. And you're either going to waste all of that time on magic solutions that you're going to be able to say, we have fulfilled our statutory obligations by, I don't know, replacing classes for disabled kids with a Skype call or a video. You say, oh, yeah, we've done. We've done.

Yeah, we've done. You can do the classic. The most swagged out disabled kids in Southeast England. This is a lot of how British government acts operates as well as by changing the definitions of things to say that they've complied with their requirements, so they can get by another day without spending money. They can keep the plate spinning. So he's either that or gambling.

That's the only way two ways I can see British local authorities coping with the increased pressures put on them. So have lessons been learned from the, from the Theructebuckle? The only real lesson to learn from the Theructebuckle is that if you are someone who is willing to, I don't know, inflate the value of a solar farm or whatever, you can probably make generational wealth in the next 10 years before they just run out of money.

I, I joked, it's one of the few ways left to doing that. I mean, I joke about him being a vampire, but he has just like destroyed an entire town. So, but you know, no one is patrician as a count Dracula would ever buy something as ghosts as a cublo. So on some level, perhaps he's not also difficult for a vampire to get into the solar farm business. That's a tough one. I'll be expecting it tonight. Yeah, that's very true. So I think that's probably the place to leave it. Gareth, any final views on the long, I'd say, Cobra and Mongoose battle that you've been waging with Liam Cavill.

I guess he's a cobra with tens of thousands of mongooses because everyone fucking hates him. But what any, any words on the sort of your ongoing, uh, eternal combat with this man. Sorry. I did. You were torturing that metaphor as CIA black site. Morning. You're pulling out itsinganale's pouring water over its face. Sorry.

What next for sort of your eternal combat with Liam Cabinock, Erick? I'd like to think after, you know, almost four years of working on this story and investigating this, it might be time for the authorities to take over and actually do something. It might be nice. Well, in Britain, yeah, I don't have a whole much faith. I've probably written about, if I could, in a journey of about 15 years,

I can probably count on one hand the number of times the authorities have done something. But it would be nice if someone, whether that was, you know, the police, serious fraud office, HMRC, God forbid, direct council, you know, actually try and get some of this money back, you know. I'm not making a comment about guilty otherwise, responsible or not. I just think that, oh to people, or to me, because I've taken so much of my life doing this, to actually try. And actually maybe set an example that, you know, people might say that you can't get away with doing stuff like this, and it

kind of counters some of the stuff. I think you quite fairly pointed out. I just, I just don't know, I went, went home my breath. No, you'd well. Garrett, I want to thank you so much for taking the time to come and talk to us today. It's been a very interesting if depressing conversation. A bit of a formative. I've learned a lot about a new type of guy. Yeah, the Lamborghini vampire or if they were called him in Australia, the Lambo vampire. And I want to thank you, the listener for listening.

If you like this show, as you know, there is a Patreon $5 a month. We get you a farm you can buy. We're crossing out the big oil warehouse, NFT, bargain bin last resort, tax laws harvesting center. We're now putting solar farm on the big list of businesses that we're also considering being. But I want to thank you for listening. You can subscribe to the Patreon if we're still doing that and not becoming a solar farm. It would be a second episode a month, second episode a week, every week for $5 a month. It's very hot and I'm

real stupid because of it. There are other episodes. There's left on red. There $5 a month. It's very hot and I'm real stupid because of it. There are other episodes. There's left on red. There's Britainology. There's the stream. You know it. You've been there. I don't think we have any other live stuff coming up to plug. You're the keeper of that kind of knowledge. I'll probably be a live show later in Baltimore. I only went to I suspect. Maybe like we could do a Christmas one. What about that? Yeah, they're okay. A very TF Christmas. Yeah, the festive Lamborghini. and order more early winter, I suspect. Maybe like we could do a Christmas one. What about that? Oh yeah, there you go. A very TF Christmas. Yeah, the festive Lamborghini.

Yeah, we'll all pull up in our festive Lamborghini and be like, please you all need to upgrade to your page. You've heard about the Turkish Ferrari now here about the festive Lamborghini. All right, anyway, we've wasted enough of this actual legitimate journalists' time. So thank you very much again, Garrett. Thank you very much to listeners. And we will see you on the bonus episode in just a few short days.

Bye. Bye. Thank you.