TRASHFUTURE - Topping History from Below feat. Dr Eleanor Janega

Episode Date: August 13, 2019

A broad swath of modern reactionary and xenopobic sentiment tries to employ fake medieval history to create a fantasy version of Europe. Whether it’s Middle Earth or some bullshit about Agincourt, the British right can’t stop making stuff up. So, to dispel this, Riley (@raaleh), Milo (@Milo_Edwards), Nate (@inthesedeserts), and Alice (@AliceAvizandum ) spoke with academic Dr Eleanor Janega (@goingmedieval) about actual medieval history. And guess what, folks? We used it as an excuse to make jokes. Read Dr Janega’s blog here, you swine! https://going-medieval.com If you like this show, sign up to the Patreon and get a second free episode each week! You’ll also get access to our Discord server, where good opinions abound. https://www.patreon.com/trashfuture *COME SEE MILO* If you're in Edinburgh for the Fringe, come see our boy perform his show: https://tickets.edfringe.com/whats-on/pindos *LIVE SHOW ALERT* Guess who’s going to play live at The World Transformed in Brighton this September? That’s right, your favourite podcast lads. Buy a ticket here: http://theworldtransformed.org If you want to buy one of our recent special-edition phone-cops shirt, shoot us an email at trashfuturepodcast[at]gmail[dot]com and we can post it to you. (£20 for non-patrons, £15 for patrons) Do you want a mug to hold your soup? Perhaps you want one with the Trashfuture logo, which is available here: https://teespring.com/what-if-phone-cops#pid=659&cid=102968&sid=front

Um, some, some small housekeeping to start, uh, this episode is going to be the free episode, not this Tuesday, but the following Tuesday, because I don't think medieval history is going to change that much in the next week. How dare you? This is cutting-edge stuff. Thank you. Shut the fuck up, Riley. How dare you?

Within 40 seconds of stuff. We've got to wind up the podcast now for fuck's sake. Hello, and welcome to your TF for this week. Uh, that cold open was a little peek behind the curtain. And also, if anyone wants to replace Milo, uh, do please send me a DM now. Milo is leaving from the office in 15 separate diplomatic bags. Um, footage will be released of me leaving the trashy just studio. There's actually just reverse footage of me walking in.

Um, uh, yeah, no, but actually don't send Riley a DM because that would have been two weeks ago. So now we will have forgotten that because Riley presses a button on the back of his head after every episode that makes him forget everything. Oh, yeah, shit. No. Okay. Don't send me a DM.

Milo's right. I will have forgotten. Um, so I am here in studio with boards master Nate, the silver surfer. Yes, it's me. I don't know if I like boards master Nate. That sounds like it could venture into the, uh, inappropriate very quickly, but I grow master flash, but just way more boring. It's literally more of a Terminator X vibe anyway.

Yeah. Well, no, I just love this. Like, if you didn't know that this, the mixing deck is called the boards, then it could just be like, I have a lot of plywood. Yeah. And you're fucking the master of it. I mean, why not both? True.

Yeah. I do like, I do have a lot of wood furniture and I'm like wood. So I mean, wait, I said that out loud. Want to get it? Want to get into podcasting? Build your own mixer at a press board. Wood future. We also have wood future.

We also have podcasting after the apocalypse, just with equipment from like sticks and a string. Um, we also have the sound quality is better. We also have Milo calling in from the Edinburgh fringe, where he's doing his show, Pindos. Uh, we also have Alice. Hello. Yes.

Already sounding worse from Glasgow than Milo is in Edinburgh, because he has the posh internet. Um, and joining us, joining us in studio today is Eleanor Yonega. Eleanor, how are you doing? I'm pretty good. Thanks for having me, Eleanor. Eleanor, if you don't already know, and if you don't already know, that's goofy.

Eleanor is an academic at LSE who specializes in medieval history and who also runs the blog, Going Medieval. Um, and we have brought her here today to talk about a few of the, uh, ways in which the history of medieval Europe is used and abused to facilitate, to build a white nationalist fantasy world. Oh God, I'm fucking weary. Yes. Never ends.

Never ends. Oh, don't worry. We've brought in a white nationalist to debate. I'm actually super excited for this because we've got, we've rift so many times about the pics or whatever, like in on this show. Or about, uh, Knute flailing the sea or things along those lines. So now we get to ask all the questions. We get to determine, are we right in our citations?

Or if we have, we read the Wikipedia page wrong. I'm still so proud of my recurring joke about trash future where we're serfs and we're just making a podcast called Midden's Advent. Oh, that is. A company of thievish Flanders men has to have disrupted by plague wagon. Um, mischievous Saracen, Hussein Kesvani, again, because this is a big recording day before we're traveling for the Birmingham transformed in the Edinburgh fringe, which have already happened and we're great.

Hussein is unfortunately not able to join us today, but the mischievous Saracen will be back in force after we are back from those, uh, those events, which have already happened, which have already happened, which is now, so, so shut up, stop. Don't talk to us. Welcome to basically inception. Yeah. You're saving to rethink Edinburgh for christen. An elastic circle.

It is. It is. It is. So let's start with, um, with an easy one, an easy myth of the medieval era or how about this? Can you give us a brief outline of what the cartoon version of the medieval era is? Yeah. That people like Ben Shapiro like to think of when they do their wig history, which draws a direct line from Rome to today with a big stupid dip of dum-dums in the medieval era.

Yeah, it's, it's a really interesting one because, um, medieval people are sort of like a Schrodinger's medieval people. They are simultaneously like just rolling around in the mud and filth and, um, incredibly stupid. I mean, usually there's some. World's first podcasters. I mean, I know, just really, um, and in a lot of ways, my biggest inspirations. But at the same time, they are like a glorious white saviors who went to liberate the Middle East and something about how Vikings are quite good.

And you can combine those two. And it's, it's very confusing. Yeah. So it's Richard Tricky Dick, the Lionheart. It is extreme. Oh my God. And Richard the Lionheart. And so, and then there's like the buzzwords, right?

There is, uh, Magna Carta. There is the Norman invasion. There's Richard the Lionheart. There are the Crusades. And, you know, Deis Volt, all that. And all of this. Um, and that's all kind of like, you know, a question mark timeline.

Who knows? And then, you know, that's all kind of wrapped up in the concept of the Dark Ages, which is like, you know, as we all know, a very bad time. And so this is a really interesting thing because we are really easy nonchalant about like kind of throwing around the term Dark Ages and being like, oh, this, what a bunch of idiots. Am I right? Oh man, Rome was great. And then the next day, everything was terrible and we were in the Dark Ages.

They didn't even have an AI-powered toothbrush. Can you imagine? I mean, if I was medieval people, I would simply invent germ theory. Extremely like this, you know. And what is actually the case is that it's a thousand years and you have no idea what the fuck you're talking about. And, but the reason that we do this and the reason that no one knows we're talking about is that no one's taught it.

And so it's like, well, how are you supposed to know? I mean, most people, when they're taught history at school, it's like, yeah, it's like, oh, Rome was glorious, something, something. And don't you like, oh, gladiator. I'd rather fancy Russell Crow's calves than everything burnt down. I'm not sure what happened. Something about the Crusades and bam, the Renaissance. And like, that's basically how they do it.

Yeah. It was Rome, dirt farming, and then Da Vinci. Exactly. And you know, and so it's very much like that in and of itself. There was Elon Musk and then dirt farming again. Oh, sorry. I've gone into the future again. I've used my powers for evil.

It's, uh, it's extremely like on that way. And like, it's kind of scary, like the Elon Musk version of the world. I mean, he is really working on, he's working towards that surf thing. You know, oh God. Oh Jesus. Just drilling a big underground mitten tube under Los Angeles. For the listener, I just pointed to the large standing of Elon Musk that has accumulated yet more stickers and Eleanor has reacted to it.

I extremely did not, you know, I try to just like banish Elon Musk from my life generally, unless I'm attempting to dunk on him on Twitter or something like that. And so, you know, I try not to see him and, you know, it got me. There he is. He got your girl again. We got you. I got once more, you know. Owned yet again by cardboard.

I know. If it's not ruining grimes, it's, you know, frightening me to your cardboard cutouts. But, uh. Siam, we are sorry to report that Lord Elon DeMuz's tunnel has unfortunately become a conduit for Navy Bozeman. Like, I mean, the whole, the whole, you know, the Elon Musk is very much like ignoring medieval history because he's extremely the type of dude who would ignore it because there is the tendency now

that anytime anyone believes in religion, we just go, oh, what a fucking moron. How could they ever have believed anything? And because medieval Europeans are largely Christian. Has he not heard of Neil deGrasse Tyson? I know. Oh my God, Neil deGrasse Tyson. The bane of every medieval historian's existence.

It's just. It's only they fucking loved science. I mean. Remember when we invented being smart? I know. They're just like, these fucking idiots, you know. Romans knew how to do it. It was forgotten.

Yeah, it's like, and the thing is, everyone loves the Romans. Everyone's constantly just dryjacking about the Romans. And like the fact that they were like a slave state that is completely predicated on subjugating anyone nearby you, and then like killing the entire population of bears in Europe for sport. Like that's chill. We love that because like mosaics. Yeah, it all looks like bears.

We're an anti bear podcast. Pro twink podcast only. And so, but we seem it seems that to be like there is this. The medieval history serves a dual purpose to Wiggish liberal Wiggish liberal techno fetishists. Not a techno fetishist like me who likes techno music, but a tech fetishist who thinks that we have to uberize everything. It's for them.

It serves the purpose of this is what happened when we didn't have everyone doing STEM and then for for white nationalists. It's like, yeah, this is what this is that our humble beginnings from which we rose up to just really start murdering every brown person. So this is like the great divergence theory, right? Where in 14 in the 15th century, Europe stops being medieval and then starts being orders of magnitude better than everywhere else. Yeah.

And it's like a really what just happens around, you know, the 15th century is that white people figured out how to get in a boat and kill other people other than just each other and like a congrats. Well done. Jared Diamond says it's because there are lots of rivers and mountains in Europe. I mean, what's the real middle ages where the friends who made along the way? Well, I keep thinking about this too is the extent to which Europe being kind of hypothesized as completely white and free of immigrants and completely homogenous

is this mythology that gets bandied about by white nationalists because the idea that, you know, this is this is the natural state of beings and that, you know, the what we should strive for is an original ethno state or something like that. When as far as I understand it, obviously my reading, I was pretty limited. I've read a Barbara Tuckman book here and there, but that's about it. Hey, well done. Is that it never was homogenous. No.

Not at all. And it was constant migration. Basically, there's never been a period where there wasn't migration. Oh yeah. And it's like you have series upon series of migration. I mean, even if you're just going to talk about England, which I try not to, because I mean, you know, the European peninsula, it's a backwater in the medieval period anyway. So like why I am obsessed with it.

In the medieval period. Yeah. And then and then like the island of Britain is a backwater within medieval Europe. Like this is extremely not where things are going on. But because of colonialism and the ability of Britain to take over the world in the modern period, we pay a lot of attention to English medieval history. And so like again, I try not to, but it's also a good case in point because it's like, you know, you've got, you know, your pics and your jutes and your angles and your

Celts and everyone, there's, you know, these layers upon layers of migration. Then you have the Anglo-Saxons come over from Geatland. Then you have the Vikings come over. Then you have the Danes who are like just Danes, not Vikings this time. It's like Danes to less Viking, less furious. Yeah. And then like. They're bugging bikes and their meatballs coming over to Almedieville, England.

And then, and then like, so for a while England is like under the Dane law. And then you have the Normans come in and then, you know, they are kind of Viking kind of French. I say let's take our own laws back. Exactly. And then they like subjugate everyone. And then, you know, for the most part, I mean, really, if you think about it, England is kind of like a backwater state of like the Normans. It's like, you know, they'll always sign everything that they write.

It's always like, oh, I'm the king of England and I'm the Duke of Normandy. And the two things are kind of like as important as each other. That's how you get the Hundred Years War. It's because French people ruled England, not because like English people had like some kind of claim to French. I thought it was because we summoned the World War Two spirit in the 11th century. Oh, yeah. It was just extremely like the Blitz spirit.

And we all planted a victory garden and something. Absolutely. It was Winston Churchill's prequel. Well, the French were triggered by us being too damn logical. What's the plan? My bit of medieval trivia is about what they call the free companies in the Hundred Years War that were basically a bunch of rage vets who just were like, I missed you. And they just they just plundered anyone.

They're like, if no one is hiring us to do plunder, we'll just do plunder on our own. And just all of you let out a france made us do plunder. Exactly. It's like a freelance plunderer now. There was one of them who had enameled on his breastplate. The means of plunder production. Enemy of God, enemy of piety, enemy of pity. I mean, that's the rules.

But, you know, like, damn, try that grunt style. They were the first rappers. Yeah. Okay. So I've got I've I've spent a little while digging up a little a few bits of very fun writing about the medieval era from a combination of quote unquote, capital M medievalists who are the bane of the discipline, apparently. And also some popular journalists like James Dillingpool adopted medieval studies.

I was born in them. Well, I was born in the let's say I was born in the world that white men built because our first our first myth is going to be the easy one. White men built the modern world by building Europe. Yeah. So this is an interesting one. Yeah. And or or was it aliens because it's not like brown people can build things.

It was the Irish for the Irish were the aliens. It was Irish people from inside the moon. Sorry. So yeah, I mean, so the concept of white doesn't exist in the medieval period is like the first and important thing to get across there. Like that's sort of it. It's not as though, you know, they couldn't be what we would call racist on occasion because like, watch them, they'll try if you come across things.

But their major thing is like, you're either a Christian or you're not. So you're a Christian or you're a Muslim or you are Jewish and or you're pagan. And that's kind of how they see the world. And it's sort of this or that there is no kind of idea that they are building a world. They are they kind of see themselves as on the edge of the world. If you look at any of their little maps of the world, Jerusalem's the center of the world, they're way out on the edge. There's Africa.

They know there's something going on in Asia. Good question. Did I don't actually know this? Did they know that there was a large population of Christians in Africa? They do know that. And they they're really interested in it too. There's this guy. Prestor John.

Prestor John. Yeah. Prestor John. And they're like, I think, yeah, that it's the second crusade there. They are really sure he's going to come from Ethiopia and back them up to take everything back again. And then spoiler alert, it doesn't happen. So yeah, it's yeah, shame for them.

I know. I'm really looking forward to seeing the film. I know. I'm sorry. Like, I mean, huge spoiler alerts throughout all of this. We're going to have to put it out of the beginning. No one here does the second crusade as a film, do they? It's always like the first crusade or no, it's always just the first crusade.

I wanted them to make a film about the children's crusade where they're led by by Sir Jeffrey of Epstein. Oh, God, mate. You cowards. Yeah, so it's like they're real clear on the fact that other people exist, but it's like the concept of those people being like another like, well, those people are, you know, quote unquote, black or brown or something. Not so much. That's not like what their concern is.

Their concern is people's religion. And they don't really build the world, do they? They like, you know, have got their own stuff going on, you know, they've got like, hey, I'm a huge fan of medieval things, obviously, in that I chose to ruin my life by studying them all the time. But, you know, what's going on in the medieval period definitely affects our society. And it's like set us up for a lot of the social things that are going on for us now. But I mean, what was going on in China is a lot more complex than what is going on in,

you know, the European middle. I mean, like the Middle East, come on, the Middle East is like where it's at. I mean, if, you know, for my money, if you're going to put a gun to my head and you're going to make me go and live in the medieval world of using this terrible time machine of ours, I'm choosing Spain, because that's an actual like real multicultural society where women are allowed to do stuff. And, you know, there's a lot of good food going on and they got olive oil and stuff. Like that's where you want to go in terms of Europe.

But otherwise, like you really want to live in the Middle East or China or something like that, because that's like where the good standard of living is. And, you know, like that women founding universities. Oh my God, yeah. And so, and that's where you spend a lot of time getting education and knowledge and stuff from the East into the West, usually via Spain. And then it gets into Spain. Interesting.

So here's a counterpoint from what you said from Rachel Fulton Brown. Oh God. From her, from her essay, three cheers for white men. One, when white women see Marie de France and Eleanor of Aquitaine invented chivalry and courtly love, white men agreed it was better for knights to spend their time protecting women. The original women protectors. So the fun thing about these, this is everything about that is wrong. So like, it's really interesting.

Welcome to tragedy, Tralina. I know, right? Like, here's my deal is that a courtly love, like the concept of courtly love is actually what we mistake for chivalry all the time. Chivalry is famously nothing to do with women at all whatsoever. It's a code of conduct for like, for knights fighting. Yeah. And it's like, it's not the other knights, right?

You burn down a village and be like mad chivalrous. Yeah. It's like, and it's only, all it does is chivalrous to the other knights. You are respecting a dude. It's like, yeah, because that's the thing is it's all about like how you respect dudes and only knightly dudes. Like, you know, fuck that village. You know, there's 12 more where it came from.

And like, why would I even go to war if I couldn't burn a village or two? And that's all it's about. It's like that and respecting God who famously loves a good village burning. And also like your fealty to your lord. Nothing to do with women. Not a damn thing to do with women. Courtly love has a lot to do with women. And it has absolutely nothing to do with like protecting them or having romantic

feelings for them. It's basically was invented because knights who are sitting around in their lord's household, they got a lot of time on their hands and they make eyes at like the ladies in the house and like they write each other poetry about how they want a bone. And like, that's what courtly love is. So it's dick pics. It's completely dick pics. And it's like it is it's saucy stuff.

Like they're a hundred percent like writing. They're like, hey, girl, I want a bone. You really? Oh, man. Like if your husband stops watching us for five minutes, we'll get down to it. Hope God forgives me. Like, you know, hate when I get a parchment that just says you up. It's like that's extremely what's going on.

Like all of courtly love pretty much is about women who are married and unmarried guys. It's like there and then none of this has to do blocked by King Mark. Exactly. It's just like if you're saying they're even even in the medieval period, there was a wife, boyfriend of sorts. I just realized that means that all of the like deus vault nights, these guys idolize literal cucks. Oh, yeah.

Oh, yeah. It's like there's so much cucking going on. Like it's like and they love it. They love it. They for them that is also like champagne humor. Like if you ever sit down and read the Canterbury tales, which you should, because they're basically a bunch of sex stories, like every single story is about how a wife is going to manage to cook her husband.

Like that's what they're about. And they're like, oh, girl, I'm going to climb up this pear tree and bone you while your blind husband sits below. And they're like. Sucker. Ribald, you know. So here's, I'd like to actually take this. I haven't seen that video.

I'd like to take this as an opportunity to segue on to the next myth we're going to explode. Let's try this one on for size. LGBT people were invented in the 1960s. And the medieval era was a time when men were men and women were pregnant. Is that you're triggered by hollering about the Roman emperor, like Gabolos card here? Oh, he's tapped it. And for mana, it's she's going in. She's going in.

Yeah. I don't know. Yeah. Famously, the Greeks also never did any homosexuals. Certainly no dressing as women. That never happened. Only Epstein shit, which was not gay. 100% the whole, the whole thing.

Like, so like, is there, there isn't a concept of being gay like we have one now. Because medieval people are not like, oh, well, there you're kind of got a fixed or immutable sexuality. Well, they're like, is if you do things, then you're a sodomite. Now, the fun thing about that is like a sodomy, which shout out to a real one. Get on Twitter and smash that sodomy button. Like follow and sodomy. It's just, I mean,

on my keyboard for this. For respects. I mean, that literally my entire Twitter feed is just being like me literally once a day being like, sodomy is not just butt stuff, guys. Guys, is anyone listening? Hello. So basically, sodomy is any kind of sex that doesn't result in pregnancy or can't result in pregnancy.

So interfemoral, hand stuff, mouths, definitely shout out to butts. But having said that, it's just like all the good stuff. Well, the butt stuff is like a later Victorian and earlier English legal tradition of where the standard for criminal sodomy was raised so high that it had to involve penetration and ejaculation. And there had to be witnesses, which sounds hot. You had to be involved in a live stage. And you had to be able to fire up a daguerreotype in time.

Essentially. I mean, like, call me. I called up a witness to the stand. Brazzers.com. Sorry. Brazzers was a pamphlet at the time. So, so yeah. So basically, you could be a sodomite if you if you're two like cis married people and you

decide to give your husband a blowjob, bang, you're both sodomites. Okay. There and there are like degrees in that they do get a bit weirder about like gay people doing gay stuff. But they're also like, it's not like one of those things where they're like, oh, this doesn't happen. They definitely know what happens. And usually what happens is if you get in trouble for doing gay shit, they like warn you.

And so like, for example, you'll have laws from Italian city-states that'll be like, look, the seventh time you get caught doing sodomy. That's what it's like. There's like a fine that goes up. It's like, what? It's like, oh, five Florence, 10 Florence, 12 Florence, 15. But look, you have to like want to get caught. Yeah, it's like more and more charges.

Yo, is it is it gay if you fuck your home is more than six times? And I mean, the issue with this is too that it can be confusing, especially if you don't, you know, spend all of your time thinking about medieval sex, which apparently other people don't. I don't know. I've been informed that's an option, but I chose not to go down that road. But you so you can be confused because also you'll use sodomite to mean like, for example, pedophiles.

So if we will have records that'll say, oh, and we killed the sodomite because he was doing sodomy and it makes it look like, oh, they're really hard on gay people. But if you actually look further into that, it's like, yeah, he was raping eight year old boys. And they were like, no, we're not having that. And so it makes it really easy to say, oh, yeah, it's this world where they don't tolerate the gay stuff. And it's like, nah, there's extremely like nuns writing each other hot letters about like each other's tits.

Yeah, it's like, I mean, it's hot. Like such a Froy of Epstein with his like, you know, hotshot medieval lawyer who's successfully pleading the technicality that he'd only sort of buy six children. Yeah, absolutely. Famously, of course, a monk, Brother Stephen Pinker, was noted to have written on his chariot. Brother Stephen Pinker notes, this is Jeff Froy's official royal train has only but six seats. Writing on John Jeff Froy Epstein's Palin, Clint.

Oh my. Okay. So here's another thing I want to ask, though. Um, is also about gender. Because as you know, male and female associated with the man and woman gender roles, that's basically been around forever. And we invented diverting from that very recently. Oh, Lord.

Of course. There were all tradwifes back then, even the men. Everyone was a tradwife, obviously. And there was a game ago. They're all, um, you know, they were like parchment girls. I can't believe the Holy Royal Emperor fell headfirst into a stream of game ago, water and died. Okay.

Fellas, is it gay to vape game or what? I don't know. It's the, but the, like, I think that is interesting in the medieval period is like, definitely gender roles exist. But there is like a kind of concepts of transness that a lot of my colleagues are doing like a cool work on now. And it's especially like, I mean, it's in not a way where you want to go, though, because it's usually women becoming men.

And it's usually like that you want to go woo now. It's like, it's extremely, you know, like how in some of the Buddhist sutras, like women can gain, can gain enlightenment if they first turn into men. It's the same thing, but for saints. So it'll be like women who just, they want to be holy real bad. And then someone wants to marry them usually, there's usually some pagan who wants to marry them, right? And then they like pray real hard to God and God is like,

bam, you got a beard now, bitch. You're a man. And they're like, oh, it's a miracle. It's holy as hell. And so there's like a whole lot of women becoming men in the medieval period. And that's like, well done. You did it, girl. Now you aren't polluted by the sin of Eve or you're so holy now.

Yeah. Damn, talk about glow up. I know. And like, I mean, it's one of these things too, where that's actually what they got John of Archon. They didn't get her on like, you know, It's like a poem. They got her on tax evasion.

Yeah, exactly. It's like my girl's tax evasion was she was dressing like a man. And so they got her on that, not on, you know, speaking to God or whatever it was she did. So they were like, yeah, she's going around dressed like a man. He can't do that. So they do some of these, maybe some of these modern women today, instead of constantly going on about feminism, you know, just did what women in the past did and sucked it up and became men.

Then we wouldn't have some of these problems. I mean, we have we not consider, you know, if I was a medieval woman, I would simply become a man one more time. You know, it's like, that was an option. That was freely available. That's the thing. Ben Shapiro in saying there are only two genders is not actually going far enough. There is only one gender and it's the fellas.

And that is kind of in some ways their grasp of things, because it is, you know, I mean, no one really thought the Bible was literally real. They were they were down with allegory. And Martin Luther has got a lot to answer for for this whole like the Bible is literally real thing. But there is this idea that like the a priori, everything is a man, which goes back to Aristotle and that like women are kind of like, not men, essentially what is this?

Like they're like inverted men or deformed men or like something like that. But also it's like the idea if we want to be like, oh, and then medieval gender roles are what is what forms everything. It's like the way that we thought about gender roles is totally different. Then where it's like, don't get me wrong. Women should stay home and shut up. I mean, am I right? Am I right?

Man, am I right? But part of the reason they have to stay home and shut up is because they are the sexually aggressive ones. Oh, yes. This comes from something that we spoke about recently, actually, which is that there and I think this is going to as the episode goes on, this is going to come out a little bit more, which is that they were considered sexually aggressive and that the idea of women being

sort of sexually prudish is sort of actually extremely comparatively recent. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Because basically if you look at the way that women are treated over time, it's like, what's the bad thing? Yeah, that's the ladies are like that. And for medieval people, since they were trying real hard to be Christian and everything, being horny was not the thing.

Yeah. So therefore, women are the horny ones. Much like podcasts now. When you know, but she keeps up with us. Damn it. But she keeps atomizing. And this is the thing, right? It is seen that women in particular are really into sodomy, right?

Because it's like, well, yes, please, if you can do anything other than stick a penis in a vagina, it's like you're doing that sodomy. So it's like women are the ones who are really pushing for sodomy a lot and in a most unholy way. And I mean, in this... Women be pushing. I mean, women be pushing. They push for sodomy.

I mean, again, call me. The antiquity version of this I like is that being too horny is effeminate, because it's like being governed by your passions. Exactly. And it's like men, of course, are famously rational. So haven't you listened to TriggerPod? Fellas, is it gay to be horny too often? And be like, yes, it literally is.

It distracts you from your stem. I mean, otherwise, ideally, men would have been spending all their time debating Ben Shapiro, really. Who in many ways was the Aristotle of our time. I mean, a horrible about women and constantly in my face, yeah. Story checks out. But what's happened really is I think a combination of Victorian fables about morality have then informed 1970s, 80s, and 90s sitcom writers like on King of Queens.

And now what we have is, again, an idea that stretches back into eternity about women being prudish and men being horny and chasing after them, that is actually a relatively recent invention, but that is cast as something that is eternally and fundamentally true and that in modernity, we have diverged from these eternal fundamental truths and that we need to go back to what is natural. Yeah, that's the natural state and that we're being wanton and somehow straying from that. Like, it's a weirdly fundamentalist sort of concept, but instead of ascribing it to

a fundamentalist doctrine based on like a religious document, instead, it's just sort of like, oh, but you know, this is how naturally how it all is. And it's kind of appealing to this almost even more sinister sort of essentialism. Yeah, and there's this idea that there's kind of an immutable way that things were and that somehow the Victorians figured it out. It's very interesting. Yeah, they had all kinds of clever calipers that could figure out a lot about a person. The Victorians were just an intensely normal group of guys who believed in the fellas and

tried not to get too horny about your table legs. So I wanted to say let's jump topics a little bit because I've got another one for us that I really enjoy and that's portraying the medieval world as containing the nations that make up the world now. So Englishness, Frenchness or whatever as meaningful concepts. And I have a reading for us. This is one you sent me actually. America, of course.

Yes, obviously. America, the who actually did the best. They're the best swords, but the problem is their swords were automatic. So Jacob Rees-Mogg and seeking to make a positive case for Brexit has told that problem is not swords, it's mental health. Jacob Rees-Mogg and seeking to... This is very different from a battlefield sword, okay? Completely different.

The handle is different shape, folks. It's Pete Buttigieg going, I did not carry a spyander around. Medieval Trump voice contains so many opportunities. So it wouldn't be medieval Pete Buttigieg. It would be Pete Buttigieg, the sheriff. Sheriff Pete Buttigieg, who is now trying to be made Holy Roman Emperor. He's just like a pictured holding the sword blade side and he'll point it outwards. I did not bring war to the Saracen lands for the same war to be visited upon mine.

Jacob Rees-Mogg and seeking to make a positive case for Brexit told the cheering crowd, quote, we need to be reiterating the benefits of Brexit because this is so important in the history of our country, quote, this is the Magna Carta. It's the Burgesses coming to parliament. It's the great reform bill. It's the bill of rights, Waterloo, Agincourt, and Cressy. We win all of these things. Someone in the crowd then yelled Trafalgar, prompting Mr. Rees-Mogg to add,

yes, and Trafalgar too, absolutely. We win Magna Carta? Yeah, we won the Magna Carta. It was a scratch off ticket. To be fair, the Rees-Mogg's might have won at Magna Carta because all it had to do was, like, I just, Magna Carta. Because Magna Carta has absolutely nothing to do with anything other than like getting rights for no reason.

It gets constitutional lawyers excited today. That's it. The Magna Carta is actually what allows people to say slurs online. It's about freedom. It's really beautiful. Tell us about the Magna Carta. What was it really? I assume, because from this, I just assume it's when England decided it was going to be the

most rational free country. King John just unveiling this big parchment that says Triggered March. King John just like, guys, it's totally cool to say it if that race uses it too. The Magna Carta is just the text. King John is like, it's fine, as long as you're reading along with the Saracen pamphlets. Milo, do the lag you got there before me. I feel, so yeah, Magna Carta, fun times for- I get it before you due to lag.

Because you were- You just freaking game over my excuses. It's not the opposite of what lag does. Yeah. Yeah, it's actually this podcasting mouse that I have. Doesn't have the DPI. Damn. My ping.

My ping is too slow. Okay. Sorry. Please carry on. And this is much like Magna Carta in that it also is something that no one would understand and only appeals to about five people. So Magna Carta, basically, the nobles were kind of pissed off that the king was lording it over them pretty good.

And they were like, we're going to fight you, bro. And he was like, nah, brah. And they were like, actually, yeah, we are brah, unless you sign this document that says that we get to keep our shit and you don't get to take it. And he was like, seems legit. So the king was like, I have stomach ache. I'm bored. I couldn't fight you.

My friends were holding me back. Dude, you are lucky I'm on parole and my kids hit. Right? Exactly. Why don't you find me next month, et cetera, et cetera. I was fighting all night last night. So basically, and it doesn't do anything except secure land rights for the nobility. And that's all it does.

And it has like, no, there is much like trickle down economics doesn't work. Trickle down rights for the nobility doesn't work. I mean, like I hate to break you. See people were still surfs. So it's like, you know, 85. It does get touted as like this, this item of the genius of European civilization. And that it's somehow singular. And that it's, you know, that lawyers fucking love habeas corpus from that.

And it was a fiction then and it is now. But basically, you know, you can find similar things like, for example, in like, you know, Chinese culture or with the Russia Kutras in India, things like that. Like usually the nobility do have rights usually. And in fact, the fact that they were getting trodden kind of over here in England is just more proof that England is a backwater. And it's like that shit would not fly on the continent. In reality, the Magna Carta was a peace treaty between two armed camps that sort of prevented

or stopped a war. It was, it was not a universal recognition of inherent rights. It was a concession made to prevent a war. No, it was literally a big letter. They did it on a huge piece of paper, like a Donald Trump signing a charity check. Yeah. Then they hugged it. And they hugged the Magna Carta. Now rights to carry a Mason in public.

That's why we protect our rights. So let's also talk about Agincourt as well. Because Brexit, Brexit's not like this thing where we just signed it to prevent a war between a few like landed people who had land disputes. What about Agincourt? Surely that's a lot like Brexit. I just, I just, I just literally think about... My favorite Agincourt thing is the speed of institutional learning within the French

nobility of having the Battle of Cressy, having a bunch of Welsh dudes with long bows kill everyone of any rank in France just effortlessly. And then decades later, they do the exact same thing again. And nobody is even like... Because of chivalry, yo. Like it's just like, that's not chivalrous, bro. Like, and they're like, nah, nah, because I mean, like basically war for rich people. Like not to nerd out, but like you find yourself sympathizing with the longbowmen,

because on the one hand, you have all of these fancy lads deciding, oh, we just line up and we charge over this. Fight uphill in the mud. And then some shit covered wealth would be like, actually, I prefer to just kill these people. I mean, it's like, in very many ways, it is the proletariat rising up, man. It's just like... It was the original quickscoping.

I just love the idea of just like getting, getting slaughtered by longbowmen and trying to charge up a hill in full armor in the mud. It's like, actually, doesn't this make you the true fascist? Your inability to engage in the form of ideas. Yeah, classic longbow fallacy. Yeah, the, the inability to fight in hand-to-hand combat in the battlefield. I was just happy when you brought up Agincourt, I was so happy, because in the back of my head, when you briefly mentioned it before,

I thought of Donald Trump trying to make fun of the French nobility about, you know, fighting in armor against longbowmen. Imagine medieval Trump voice, but complaining about like, oh, they're very weak. They're not strong at all. They can't even move in that armor. They're drowning in that armor, folks. You hate to see it.

They're so weak. Yeah. It's, it's just... This Trump voice coming in a big suit of mail. It's like, it's like way too large for him. That's like, for some reason, it's got a tie. No one, no one understands what's happening. Oh yeah.

That's, that's something I'd like to see. The French nobility, very bad Christmas party. There was not a single playboy playmate at that Christmas party. I went there, folks. Saturnalia celebration. Very bad, very bad. Can one of our, this is a listener mission, which again, by the time this episode comes out, I will forget.

But can one of the, one of the many artists and illustrators who follows us, please draw Donald Trump in an oversized suit of medieval armor charging up a hill in Agincourt. I think Ben Garrison has already done this. I think Ben Garrison has already done this. I mean, you know, I do sleep sometimes. I can't just be writing down Donald Trump, Wank fantasies, you know.

Please, please someone do that. I want to know what he looks like in armor because- Donald Trump is King John of Bohemia being tight to his horse, blind and charged into the castle. I mean, shout out to real one. Yeah, that's like one of my favorite stories, because his son, Charles IV, is like extremely, extremely my boy. And it was like, and he was so stoked pretty much that his dad was finally dead

because he was just a famous asshole who just like went around, like basically participating in jousts and like getting involved in wars just because that was his deal. And it was like, finally, you're dead. Well, you know, like, yeah, tie your horse onto another horse, you blind idiot. Bye. And it's like very fine.

But I mean, yeah, all those things like Agincourt and Chrissy, it's like, you know, oh, well, this is what we do. We win. It's like, again, I mean, I guess it maybe is the metaphor for Brexit because yeah, it's like some rich guys who are going to benefit while a bunch of poor people die. Yeah, yeah. Story checks out.

Story checks out. But it's like, you know, it's one of these things where I mean, fundamentally, this is a rich guy property dispute. That's the only thing that's going on in the Hundred Years War. Chrissy and Agincourt are cool because Welsh Longbowmen got to kill some rich people and I'm extremely pro that. But I mean, at the end of the day, what the complaint there and what the innovation is, is they kind of like suspend chivalry.

So you need to decide if you're like, oh, chivalry, white man built the modern world, which I'm extremely sure Rhys Mox would tell you is true. Or Agincourt and Chrissy are these great, you know, things that we overcame things because it's suspending the rules of chivalry because chivalry just meant that only poor people died during wars while the rich guys play rich guy tag. And you're just like, aha, got you.

You're coming home with me. There's a slap right over a timeshare. And then having a timeshare in the Kingdom of France. But also I laughed too because the idea that Jacob Rhys Mogg is going to invoke the Battle of Agincourt about talking about British ingenuity and winning. And it's like, hmm, you were unprepared for what you're going to face and you went up getting slaughtered and mass. That doesn't sound anything like the three British invasions of Afghanistan to me at all.

So it's like the idea that this is somehow this, you know, innate concept that we just, we win all the time. It's like, there are a lot of losing too. Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't the Welsh longbowmen incredibly physically fucked up by being longbowmen? Oh yeah. One giant arm. Yeah, it's like enormous ribcage, like a deformed huge ribcage. The chair's arm, just incredibly jacked skeletons still.

And it's like. The Welsh longbowmen just jizzing on the French army from a great eye. One incredibly jacked up. If you see some of the reconstructions of the Welsh longbowmen or English longbowmen, like the way that they would look like when they've rebuilt them from skeletons, they look like the Chad meme. Like the Virgin. The French night versus the Chad longbowmen.

Oh God. And he fucking your wife, which is, yeah. That's what I mean. I imagine they must get really frustrating though to see that invoked. Oh yeah. It's like, it's always him and Boris. They're always saying something really ridiculous about history. And also people let them write history books. It's, I don't know.

We're going to talk about Jacob Rees-Mogg's book on the Victorians as soon as we can find a copy. It's not easy to find. We don't want to pay for a copy. Jacob Rees-Mogg is such a fascinating nerd because like he grew up in the 80s, but like he just like loves like stuff. He like acts like a fucking like steam ill owner. Like it's like, like naturally he should be a Gerand Gerand fan,

but for some reason he's just like obsessed with like cosplay and the corn laws. Like none of it makes any sense. It's kind of like he got stuck in larping somewhere along the way. And I think that that's maybe what wealth allows you to do. You never have to like get beyond that. Yeah. Cause I mean he was, he was 13 in 1981 when he appeared in that dumb photo of him in like a double-breasted suit with a monocle. And it's like.

That is child abuse in a very real sense, isn't it? I mean, a lot of people that's just their theater face and they grow out of it. But you know. He's a thesp. He's just a thesp. He shouldn't have been given a capital fund or a position of power. He should have been given a one man show. So I've got another one.

And this is more cultural. Portraying the medieval world is anything other than white male, violent and atavistic is just, quote, forced diversity. Take this piece from very sexually normal man, James Dellingpole, in a spectator article entitled forget the BBC only channel five does popper documentaries these days. I love, by the way. No.

These days. An interjection. Am I right? An interjection. If anyone, here's a little trash future secret. A great way to find articles is just to search in, quotes the phrase these days on Google news for the headlines. I like so called experts.

It's always gold. So the BBC doesn't do bread and butter documentaries anymore. Almost invariably, Dellingpole writes. Almost invariably, the agenda overwhelms the content. So for example, if it's history, it has to be presented by a woman or an ethnic minority and skewed to the politically correct message. I saw David Olazoga on TV twice and now I'm black pilled. A classic example was King Arthur's Britain, the truth unearthed on BBC to the other week.

It lined up the early medieval experts to explain to us how our glorious past national identity was much more fluid than it is now. And everyone was much more comfortable absorbing vibrant different cultures. Gosh, what could the subtext possibly have been? And it's like, I'm just so upset to learn that history exists. So that's like basically what the complaint is here. Why isn't it like the story books? He's a cannon nerd.

He's going to like the sci-fi convention. And he's asking factual style questions of William Shatner. It's just like I only watch documentaries where we go around a medieval village and there's a small worm in a hat and glasses that explains to me what you use in different surfs do. No, I mean, really, I mean, it's like it's like somewhere between watching the first the first season of Blackadder or reading like a Just William book. And they decided that's what it was like. That's all it was.

Get out of here with your facts. My feelings need protecting. And it's like, I mean, it is one of these things where- Wait, every brick here, Blackpill data. Every time Baldrick comes up with a plan, he's like, there's no point. We're all dead. Someone make that. I feel like the thing is with, you know, imaginary medieval history is it's a bunch

of white dudes sitting around and I don't. Occasionally there's a woman, right? There's like made Marion, right? It's all Robin Hood and it's a bunch of dudes and like a woman pops up, you know, in these people's heads. Tolkien's got a lot to take for this, but you know, those are all like war stories theoretically. So the idea is that history is only something that is done by great men to other people.

And that's the only thing that's worth talking about. Whereas the truth is, you know, 85% of people are peasants, right? In the medieval period. That's so like everybody. I hate to break it to everyone. Women were always half the people. It's like, what? Well, I thought you guys were invented by feminism.

I thought that's what feminism looks like. I don't want to read history when there's chicks. I only want to read about big strong men, manly men, men with horses and big muscles. And it's like, is it gay to do history to other dudes? Yo, I only do history from below. Wait, you study history. That's kind of sucks. Read a great man theory.

Sorry. Sorry. Sorry. Um, topping from history from below. Uh, episode title. Jesus. It's just also like the complaint that, oh, a minority or a woman is always presenting it. It's like, yeah, bro, the majority of people who take history degrees are women now.

Sorry. Like, remember how you're like constantly telling us to learn to code and that we wasted our life because we did a history degree? Well, we did a history degree, man. Yeah. Like, sorry about it. It's almost as though, it's almost as though the goal posts change because it was never about the, no, that's sorry.

That couldn't be it. They said they were rational and logical and that they liked that. I forgot. Sorry. The other thing is to, to bring up here, I guess, is that also, I mean, the concept of like some, like one pure bunch of white people doesn't exist either because people were moving around a lot and people did move around a lot because that's how you got goods from one place to another.

People had to go with it. It wasn't like, you couldn't stick a box on a plane and, you know, it didn't show up. The Joffrey of Bezos. Yeah, exactly. Like, it's not like my man hadn't gotten there yet. So, you know, if, if stuff moved, people had to move with it and people did move around. So you would always have like a lot of people kind of going back and forth. And it's like, we have-

Joffrey's peasants are once again revolting about the temperature of the work and his pigstice. I mean, I think about this too because I, you talk about this stuff and people will, will posit this idea of homogenous white Europe all the way up until basically like post-World War II. Whereas I've been recently doing a little bit of research about the history of migration in the south of France, in the border area of Italy. Because I recently was in that area and I just found it interesting that it's a super mixed area, right?

And there were like race riots against the Italians in like the 1890s. It's like- Swiss people love doing that shit, by the way. Oh. It's literally Marseille. Marseille, it was like, hey, there's too many fucking Italians. Like it, it literally got like, so the idea that it was ever homogenous, it just seems like it's, it's the goalpost, like you said, Riley.

The goalposts are always moving because it's always in service of this weird myth that no one can even find the founding text for, because that doesn't even exist. I found the founding text for it. The most fresh feature thing is the Swiss confederation having a race riot against different kinds of Italians at the same time. I thought, I always thought that the race riot was a mass scale of that episode of The Sopranos, where Meadow starts dating a mixed race guy. And Tony is like, look, we should do it on our own.

Yeah, mixed race except he's just a Savoyard. So here's the thing, we actually do know what the foundational text for this is. And I'll give you a hint. It's not a history text and it comes from the 20th century. And this is... Your dimension is spoken, so... Yeah, yeah. Oh, Alice, you've guessed it.

Oh, yeah, yeah, good point. Like he was actually a medieval historian, so he's got a lot to answer for. So here is the one pit of an article I'm reading from this, in this episode that is from a good article. And it's by Shiloh Carroll and it's called Race in a Song of Ice and Fire, Medievalism Posing as Authenticity. And I think this really hits the nail on the head. At Shiloh begins.

Tolkien's portrayal of the pseudo medieval world of Middle Earth strongly influenced subsequent fantasy literature, which by proxy has had a significant impact on the broader public understanding of the Middle Ages as they actually occurred. This is the beginning of what has in studies of fantasy fandoms been described as a feedback loop. In the feedback loop, readers are exposed to a medievalist, so white, like the white male nationalist,

version of the Middle Ages through fantasy writing. They then come to believe that this medievalist version is the accurate portrayal of the Middle Ages because it feels true, but only because it's familiar. Having done that, people then insist that this version of the Middle Ages in future literature because it's accurate. Round and round it goes and eventually all fantasy versions of the Middle Ages more or less look the same,

even if they're set in the real world. Yep. I mean, and this is absolutely the case. And it's how I somehow get sucked into arguments with extremely online people. Not that I'm not extremely online, but- The elves were white! Yeah, I know, and you know,

I will literally get in arguments with people about these things, and it's like these people will argue with me in honest to God, medieval historian, where I'm like, that it's not actually the case, and they'll go, nah, and I'm like, but where are you getting your facts, bro? And they will, they don't actually have an answer. It's just that they're really big Tolkien nerds, or they read The Lion, the Rich, and the Wardrobe,

or, you know, any number of things. I mean, you could really kind of like, and just throw a dart at any collection of fantasy books, and it's got this kind of white, homogenous, boring kind of medieval period, and- It comes to gaming. It's like- The medieval Britain had no brown people.

It only had white people, centaurs, and occasional lions, who were also Jesus somehow. Well, so it was great! My wife used to complain about this, because people will try to defend, especially in the early seasons of Game of Thrones, having zero non-white characters. And they'll try to argue, like,

oh, it's supposed to be like medieval England. And the response is, yes, but there's fucking dragons in the show. You're saying like, dragons are within the realm of the past, but black people aren't. Well, also, even if you go that far, like, there were, there were brown people! I know! There were!

They existed! And this kind of like feeds into the narrative and the idea that, you know, medieval people are really stupid. They don't know how to move around. They don't know how to do all these things. It's like, well, sure, brown people existed, but everyone was so dumb.

They couldn't figure out how to walk and, you know, like, end up different places. And that, so it's this feedback loop of like, well, of course it's only white people. Now what was, like, smart enough to do anything? I hate it when I get kicked out of my council village because they're trying to house Mansa Musa. You've been playing too much civilization.

They, yeah, no, it's like playing a game of civilization. And then being like, well, that's history! Yeah, exactly. Like, let's go to Nemo and explain this to me. Video game reference, per video game that one of us plays. So we're briefly a civilization podcast, and then Riley plays The Witcher, and we're a Witcher podcast.

I just was thinking of the idea of like a civilization sort of version. This podcast is just stuff Riley likes. That's what you need to accept. Yeah. Medieval Brexit, where they forced themselves out of the Hanseatic League so they can have chlorinated guinea fowl.

But I think one of the things, right, that I kind of bring, bringing this all together, because if we want to look at where this version of our history came from, whether, and that's the history of Europe, European peoples, whatever. Where this history came from, it's not the actual study of history.

It's not any kind of archaeological evidence. It's not any kind of textual evidence. It is a Victorian fantasy about unique English and to a lesser extent, European greatness that was there to justify colonialism. Well, fucking Churchill got in on it with a history of the English speaking peoples. And then that jumped over in the 1960s

to the conservative movement, which was there to more or less react against social opening, the civil rights movement, and the feminist movement. And then it just became set in stone, and then it became rift on in fantasy and taught in class. And all of a sudden, historical accuracy

is about comfortable stories rather than anything complex, because it has to be simple. It's, I don't know if you're familiar with this, but the, famously the French education system up until relatively recently made children, basically regardless of where you were in the French Empire,

read about our Gallic ancestors, like nose ancestors, they go a lot. Like it was basically, you could be in French Guiana, and they were like, yes, your Gallic ancestors who, you know, fought the Romans, because it was this idea that the only part of the country's history that mattered from that era were asterisks and obelisks,

which is about as historically accurate as the shit they were fucking teaching them. And so everything else is just regarding. Our Gallic ancestors, we say, in this incredibly Latinate language, were definitely completely descended from the Gauls. Yeah, I mean, it's, the thing is about all of this, is fundamentally what it is.

It's a belief system. And the reason that you have to argue with people, and the reason that it is so deeply ingrained in our society is it's a belief system, and it feels right. So, you know, if I say, oh, that's not right, I hate to break it to you, we didn't invent black people in the modern period,

you know, something like that, then people are like, well, no, but I don't believe that. So you're actually arguing with them on a faith-based level, which makes it really, really difficult. It's not something that you can actually really refute in a number of ways, because they don't want to read the long paper,

they're too busy coding, and they just don't want, like, you know, in, like, what's this lady doing, trying to tell them, you know, that, whatever. You should be a trend one. Got my AI to read the evidence. I was wondering. I got my AI to read the evidence, and it told me that actually,

black people were invented in 1967 by Sir Arthur Black People, the Kellogg Research Institute. I trained my AI to read 1,000 hours of fantasy books. This is the medieval history it came up with. There's no, there's no cogent analysis of race. It's just really horny all the time. I was wondering if you've encountered...

I think you've been reading my blog. Have you encountered people within academia, within, like, the discipline of history who've tried to, I don't know, push back, like, the sort of, like, alt-right historian shit? Has there been any sort of even, like, entry into that? Yeah, I mean, so there are some, unfortunately. There are some people who are racist.

Hey, I mean, of course there are, because our whole society is racist. The good news about this is that they are perishingly few, and the majority of us are kind of, like, lined up to fight this. But it's, especially medieval history, has been really radicalized lately. And, I mean, the good news is,

I think that there's more people on the correct side of things, which is kind of pushing for a real, medieval history, where we admit that women and black people existed, and that gays are a thing. As opposed to the other one, which is like, no, la, la, la, I can't hear you. I can't hear you over all of my charging nights.

Exactly. And, unfortunately, you know, a lot of it's coming out of the University of Chicago, at the minute. We have some bad things, and you know, there are- University of Chicago, you do have bad things. I know. It never reduced a harmful research paradigm.

And, I mean, there are- This new University of Chicago paper, the nights weren't gay, they were just really good friends. And, it's like, I mean, a lot of it is extremely- I was just sitting around being like, retire, bitch, at people, and it is sort of helping. But, um- The wizard Milton of Friedman has gone to the-

I don't know, guys. It sounds kind of sus calling yourselves the Chicago boys. I'm gonna say, the wizard Sir Milton of Friedman has descended to a kingdom far away of its deep south, where he shall learn, he shall, by invoking magic numbers, could bring unparalleled prosperity to the land. But, we do human sacrifices out of flying chariots of Communards. I mean, I feel like the issue is like,

and of course, we're this weird flashpoint, and it's really strange to be this weird flashpoint, because on one hand, five years ago, no one cared about us, and you'd say, oh, I'm a medieval historian, and people would just go, oh, okay, just, you know, and that would be it. And now, it's sort of like, people are like, well, what about all those Nazis?

And I'm like, a great, great question. I mean, but I guess that we're just kind of like, you can't move for Nazis anymore, so it's no surprise that it's happening to us. But, I think- Medieval Nazis, I hate medieval Nazis. You know, we're- So, like, since you mentioned radicalizing the field,

I just pictured, like, Hildegard von Bingen with the Antifa mask. Yeah, my bitch would extremely throw down, she's on the right side, you know, and she would, like, come up with them, she'd like, write a weird, like, space opera about it, and like, give you a face mask as well, because self-care is important.

Like, you know, my girl had it all. So, she was an original Instagram influencer. She was the Caroline Calloway of the medieval period. It's hot girl summer, but it's the summer of, like, I don't know, 1180. I mean, the bitch was hot. I mean, and quite gay. Lady Caroline of Calloway is inviting many serfs

to our hundreds courts to enjoy an afternoon of the creative inspiration for making illuminated manuscripts. She promised to make each of them a hearty gruel, but has discovered that producing such a vast quantity of gruel is too challenging. I'm now asked to bring that up.

Sorry, Eleanor. I've discussed it that I know what you're talking about. That's what's really sad. I'm just over here trying to connect Marianne Williamson and Julian of Norwich. Okay, wait. You know, well, Julian of Norwich was famously on a kind of God-based diet, you know?

So, it's like, if you just give it all up to the Lord and just simply be walled into a closet and have all your meals through it, the weight gain. Which is absolutely my shit. Like, yeah. I mean, so, Eleanor, I'm going to omit something to you now. Having you on was largely an excuse for us

to engage in our favorite bit, describing modern stuff in medieval language, such as Sir Jeff Roy of Epstein. So, this has been a transparent front for that. I mean, act like I don't listen, you know? I know what this is. I knew what this was. And I did it anyway because I'm that desperate

for people to pay attention to medieval history. However, I think as part of our grand scheme to do Lady Caroline of Calloway bits and so on, we also may have taught a few people a few fun things about a history most medieval. So, and I think it also about does it on time for us today. So, that it only leaves me to Eleanor. Thank you very much for coming in.

Thank you for having me. And to all of our listeners, sorry if a major news event happened, and you're wondering why we're not talking about it. This look, this was recorded on the same day as last week's free episode. So, if medieval history substantively changed last week, sorry.

And if you're expecting us to cover something, we'll probably do it on the bonus. I hate it when we jinx the world and discovering the Ark of the Covenant. We've found Richard the Third's body again. It's a little trouble. I wonder what it would be like with two kings. Oh, yeah.

So, also, we've already done the Birmingham Transform to Edinburgh live shows by the time this has come out. Yes, and they were wonderful. And also, however, we still have a live show coming up. It is going to be at the World Transform in Brighton, which is the big, big, big lefty event in the country. So, do please get your tickets to that

because it will be an exciting cavalcade of fun and enjoyment and occasional podcasts, at least one, which is us. So, do come to that in conclusion. Libya is a land of contrast. I'm at the Edinburgh Fringe every day until the 25th of August. That's my last day, except the 12th.

So, don't come on the 12th. That will be before this episode comes out. Actually, so don't worry about it. If you came on the 12th, sorry. Sorry if you came on the 12th. My apologies. But yeah, my show is going to print us. It's on a two o'clock every day at Justice Atonic

at the Charterist Centre, which is on Pleasants near the Pleasants Courtyard. It's been really fun so far, but I do need more people to come. Thank you to all the trash boys who've been in so far. You haven't gone unnoticed this. It's a diverse array of japs and comedy. Also, at the time of recording,

we have shirts left in size M and L. So, if you're in ML, then buy one of our ML shirts. I'm looking at you, Durham. Otherwise, is there anything left to plug? I think we've covered it, man. There ain't? Okay, follow Eleanor online. Check out her blog, Going Medieval.

It's very fun if a little bit horny. Yeah, there's a lot of dicks. There's a lot. The rave reviews are in, people. There's a lot of dicks. Anyway, until next week.