TRASHFUTURE - WeWork Presents: The Darkest Yearbook feat. Sarah Manavis

Episode Date: December 18, 2018

Business Joker. You thought it was just a dumb meme, but to your hardo connections on LinkedIn, it’s a way of life. On this week’s Trashfuture, Riley (@raaleh), Milo (@Milo_Edwards), and Nate (@inthesedeserts) spoke with Sarah Manavis (@sarahmanavis) discuss Tumblr’s ban on porn (and how tech companies fundamentally do not understand their users), a WeWork job description for what sounds like the editor of a cult yearbook, why YouTube’s pro-racism user base hated its yearly rewind video, and a lot terrible business success ideas. On this episode, we discussed an article that Sarah wrote about Tumblr. You can read it here: https://www.newstatesman.com/science-tech/social-media/2018/12/tumblr-s-porn-ban-another-case-social-media-sites-misunderstanding Please bear in mind that your favourite moron lads have a Patreon now. You too can support us here: https://www.patreon.com/trashfuture/overview Also: you can commodify your dissent with a t-shirt from http://www.lilcomrade.com/, and what’s more, it’s mandatory if you want to be taken seriously. Do you want a soup mug? Yes, you do, because this dying planet demands more themed trinkets: https://teespring.com/trashfuture-soup-mug#pid=659&cid=102910&sid=front  

Hussain, you've only gone and done it again. I am back on my bullshit, yes. How do I explain this? OK, so as the listeners will know, I'm in New York still for another week, and it was 2 in the morning, and I was very awake. So as normal people do, I went on Twitter, and I just came up with something really stupid.

So I tweeted out, I love to be a doctor. No, I'll find the tweet now, one second. I love being a doctor and whispering the verses of the Qur'an into the ears of white babies, and therefore making them Muslim. The hospital I work for knows that I have been doing this for years, but can't strike me off because they are scared of being called racist. So I tweeted it out, and it kind of got some moderate engagement. So the reason why I wasn't really that bothered by it initially

was because this follows the exact same format as the soup tweet. It's the same tweet. It's a new and exciting character. It's the same tweet. It's like a Spider-Man reboot, right? It's the soup tweet reboot. It's the same thing with a slightly sexier character, and it makes less sense than the original. It's the same of Tommy Robin's soup, it's Saint Tommy's hospital. Right, right, right. So I woke up, and obviously it's 2pm or something

about time in the UK, but it's just sort of blown up. And it's blown up with people who generally know that, okay, it's a joke and it's very funny, but there were obviously people who got extremely mad about it. So with the soup tweet, we got people like David Vance and Paul Joseph Watson and all the kind of conservative dipshits, like mad, right? Entry level. Entry level. Yeah, yeah. This time, the people who were mad are generally more unhinged.

They come from a internet subculture called QAnon. I'm not sure if you've heard of them before. You are going to be in every conspiracy theory from now on. So I'm now on one of QAnon's biggest Instagram pages where they've captured the tweet and they've said, liberalism won't stop here. And then it says in big capital letters, are you angry yet? And then I read the comments underneath

and it's just unhinged, just like people like, oh my God, he's Satan or yeah, I'm going to go find his hospital or I'm going to go find the hospital he works and then show him my gun, love it in bacon grease. Like we should defer to Hussein here because he is a doctor now. Yes, yes, I'm officially a doctor. Hello and welcome back again to your free TF. It's almost time for Christmas.

I can hear those sleigh bells wringling, jing, jing, jingling too. I am Riley. You may remember me from every previous episode. I asked myself the same question. That that is Hussein in New York. This is so off-pract. That was Milo in California. That earlier, that earlier was Nate in studio. Hello. Can we just clarify for a second

that as far as I'm aware, you guys are still in the Caliphate of Tower Hamlets where Christmas was banned several years ago by the Sharia police. And even saying that word can get us shut down, get our building demolished. And more importantly, we'll get all our streetwear stolen again. Well, we have a white noise generator in here. It hasn't yet been banned because I know white people are canceled. The white noise generator just slowly plays articles from Quillette.

And we have as our guest today, Sarah Minovas. Apparently, you say it like you're tipping your fedora at your phone. Exactly. Nobody has ever said that to me. Sarah is the digital culture writer at the New Statesman. How are you doing? You know, I'm just so unhappy to be here. Yeah, that's that's pretty the usual feeling that we. Hey, baby, this is digital culture.

Unfortunately, Milo is right. Look, so if we all want to stop doing podcasts, I was figuring I could find us some other other lines of work. And fortunately, I have come across this a job description from WeWork, which is if listeners don't know, an office space company that tries to make it your home. And I think lets you skateboard inside in some places. WeWork is seeking a deputy editor to work closely with content leadership

to create storytelling about the future of work. WeWork and its members through editorial content that engages, informs, delights and inspires on a global scale. Yikes. Yeah, I would also say that's a Dignitas. I would also say, too, that we got a chance to read some of that delightful content and who, boy, is it well done, extremely good, extremely deserving of the the demands they want to place on this editor.

I don't know if you have any thoughts on that before we go into reading. Well, I'm going to finish up the job description here because who, boy, is it ever a job description for what appears to be an editor for some office space? Through thoughtful and well reported storytelling, WeWork aims to establish itself as a trusted must read resource on the way we work now and will in the future. The deputy editor will generate a sign and edit cover stories,

features, news stories, prospective pieces and franchises for all of WeWork's editorial properties, including the digital magazine creator and the WeWork blog. In case you're one of those people who gets to work in the morning and you're like, wait, but how do I work? And then you quickly check the WeWork magazine so you don't look like an idiot. That's that's it, right? I like to be honest, like I'm sitting here like and I don't really understand

what the service that WeWork provides is. Like I don't understand like who is like, like I get like having a fucking host of office spaces, but I'm not like who's like, oh shit, it's like we need a neon sign provider that says like a motivational quote and like fucking like bright pink. And I don't really understand like how that then generates like a blog that gets more than like 10 views in article. Yeah, I mean, the idea that you need a reporting platform for WeWork, it's

like, what if you're the landlord had a newspaper? It's like, well, he does already. It's called the spectator, but I can read that. I don't need to read this thing. WeWork refused to shop a bank. You know, there's lots of questions about publishing. For example, do shaving companies really need magazines? Do people really need to get paid for them?

Who knows? But it's sort of like this, there's this bigger question about like, what is the value of WeWork and like, this is a question that has come up on our show like several times. Really, what it is, is the value of rework in theory comes from real estate. It's a property company. So, you know, based on like things that, based on things that we've talked about and also just like things that I've been looking into in regards to WeWork.

One of the big issues is that like the culture component of WeWork is kind of separate to what it actually is. If WeWork like completely goes bust, the value is still in the property. But the problem is obviously like that property value isn't distributed to everyone, right? So, you've got like this big infrastructure of people trying to kind of uphold this very weird sort of office, open style office, family culture, of which like they don't actually benefit from if the company goes like, you know,

goes tits up. And I think that's really where the discussion should be. It's like, not, you know, what are we building? But what happens if this company fails? Like who are the people who end up walking away with money and who are the people who end up walking away not only without a job, but just like with a ton of wasted time as well. And like doing this, you know, this whole like magazine or like blog

for like WeWork is really just like an extension of trying to build like a mythos around this place to kind of master the fact that like it doesn't actually contribute anything other than, you know, big venture capital based property acquisition in like large, like major cities. You know what it is? I figured out what WeWork is. It's just the real life instantiation of the movementarians from the Simpsons. That's that's literally what it is.

You might you might want to explain. Yeah, because I don't know. Not quite as schooled up on Simpsons lore as you are. Okay. It's when Homer, Homer joins the cult and he keeps like finding and it has the leader and and everyone and they sort of they sit down around a table. They sing a fun song about how great the leader is and then they get promised that they're going to get taken to this planet called Blistonia,

which is known for its high levels of bliss. At the end of the day, the leader is just a guy with a Rolls Royce who then manages to escape on a on a on a small hovercraft that's way down with a bunch of bags of money. Well, I guess the thing for me is also like if you're trying to start a business, you know, or you're trying to like you want a space where you can't afford like in a major sort of real estate environment, like you might want to rent an office space for a desk and it's like, but you shouldn't have to

be subjected to like vegan lifestyle brand stuff just to sit at a desk and pay rent all day. And I think the thing about it is it that gets me to is, is it like this being yet another way of amplifying that influence? Like, does anybody actually enjoy going to a WeWork space any more than they would enjoy going to a normal office space? I not at all because it's work. And also does anyone really enjoy being in an open office?

Cause I know that all the times I've worked in open offices, it's been really bad. And so I think to myself like, what, what is it about WeWork that would be anyone would want to read this? I think that brought to your point, like, Sarah, what, who's going to read this and how is it really going to be more than like the shareholders or whomever the investors at WeWork? Is this libel or is WeWork literally just like a Ponzi scheme? Yeah.

I mean, I also think too is what we see it because we're here in a space. It's like a Brent by the office kind of like co-work space for startups. You can see how like that myth that was like permeates so much of the startup culture. Yeah. I mean, it's definitely like, it's definitely permeated when we had the acid sink. When we, when we, when we got the acid sink, that's what I thought to myself.

Damn, guys, we made it. Finally, so I'll carry on. The role demands, creativity, big ideas, energy, dynamism, and a positive attitude. Also, he or she must be an excellent writer and editor, highly organized and detail oriented, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Here, what I really, really like, like the responsibilities is, you know, generate assigned features, brainstorm, story formats, blah, blah, blah,

blah, blah. Fine. We don't care about that. The qualifications are where shit gets wild. What do you guys think the, I mean, you guys all know the first qualification, minimum of 10 years experience in an editorial role. I'm just so fucking baffled by that because I'm like, in what other, like, I know we all know this, like what other role would you be in for 10 years where

you'd be like, oh, holy fucking shit, you know, what the next step in my career is, is being like the head of fucking we work magazine or whatever the hell, or the we work blog. But I just like, I'm wondering like who are the actual, like I'm like, what I'd be interested to see is who the actual people that apply for this end up being, like what blogs are they currently running? Like what shit corporate blogs is the pool from which the candidates are coming? I mean, I honestly feel like, oh, should we apply?

Is that for people who are, who are in journalism and are just dealing with the instability of journalism careers, like I could totally see someone being like, well, it's a corporate communications job that, that at least promises a certain degree of stability and also like a relatively low threshold for quality of work output. But the thing about it is that to me, I think that what makes it more alarming is that we works business model, there isn't really ever a point at which it's going to become stable or profitable.

At some point there's either going to be a lack of demand for tenants or there's they're just going to run out of investor money to buy up what I mean, in New York, they run like a health club in one of their properties, like among other things, like it's, and it's not even a bad gym. That's the crazy thing like I've seen the gym. Like it, it's, but money's got to come from somewhere and it's like at some point, like if working in this, like this seems as though they're going to want to attract someone who wants to make the transition into corporate

communications, but it's like, you know, where the money comes from, it comes from the Saudis. The Saudis. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. This is the Saudis are like, it's, this is the thing. It's like the same, the some of the same people who are like funding ISIS are also funding. We work is going to say that what it doesn't say in that job qualification, is that you have to visit the, are you allowed to fucking keep that in? I was going to say, periodically, you have to just make visits to the Saudi consulate. You may not come back from them. You don't know for a fact,

but it's like, it's part of the job. It's like, it's, you have to edit. I'm just having the idea of ISIS having a co-working space. You have to edit, edit. WeWorks creator blog. And also you have to edit Debeak. That's the thing. It's like, it's all of this venture capital money. The reason that we live in such a stupid world is that all of this venture capital money just basically just goes through this fire hose onto some of the dumbest, yet sort of most possessive, titanic self-regard people the world has ever produced. And this is the kind of person who would say, you know what?

My rented co-working office space needs a fucking editor, a glossy magazine. Yeah. And I'm going to say this. It's not like we're in a position to criticize people for having high sense of self-regard, but this does seem like a little bit, a little out there. Well, I mean, what I was going to say is like number one credit where credit to you. ISIS was a very successful startup funded by a lot of capital, venture capital, much of it from anonymous donors, obviously, but it did leave an even though ISIS did fail in a very short amount of time, it did leave an impact on the world.

It failed forward. The new Jihadi startup that's really turning heads. So I wanted to use my platform on this podcast to say, but I'm actually writing a new book, which is all about how ISIS could have succeeded by changing its mindset and maybe adopting more things from the Joe Rogan podcast, if they had better editorial strategies for Dubique, for example, you know, going away from the print model and moving towards a more digitally integrated yellow beanie model way of doing things.

They were very successful at like, you know, pushing away any attempts to unionize. So there's a lot of lessons that we need is good. It's just not good for ISIS. So there's there's there's lots of lessons that we can learn from the caliphate. I've got a I'm just I'm just imagining still the idea of an ISIS we work space where like Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi is playing table tennis with a guy in an orange jumpsuit underneath a massive poster, which says, like, live, laugh, love, be vegan. I

don't think it's the ISIS black flag, but it is just live, laugh, love. Well, there's a sort that's you. There has to be a sword, but it's a it's a happy sort. It's a it's a happy sword. Guys, who wants to we can fall in our happy swords when I actually read some an example of the content that we work puts out. And then we can again, we have to remember this is just like the biggest pot of money in the world is directing all of these resources to these people who are already the richest in history. Let's find out about what we everyone at we work did it. We work summer camp. Oh God, help me. We work summer camp. Eight thousand people

come together with a purpose. Lindsay Ruth and knows it sounds crazy, but her favorite part of we work summer camp 2018 was when a brief, but torrential downpour flooded her tent. Does she does she indeed were all my things soaked says Ruth and a public relations manager at Flatiron School in New York. Yes, but I've never felt more supported by co workers in my life. People were offering me warm clothes and blankets, helping me dry up my tent or simply saying I heard what happened. Are you okay? This is this is like a dark yearbook article. Yeah, really dark yearbook article. Well,

yeah, it's like the like kid getting bullied and it's like, oh, but it was so nice to be a part of the group. People really liked me after they like my colleagues were burning me with matches, but like it felt so great to be part of a team. Also, it's like, oh man, we work summer camp was so awesome. When all my shit when my tent was floated, people didn't just come up and kick me and like try to take the rest of my shit or call me a wet bitch. No, they acted like basic humans. I knew I knew because I thought I recognized that the Flatiron School is sort of like a general assembly style sort of thing where it's like a place where you go to like get a tech career like you pay to take classes to like get a job doing other dumb shit like this. Yeah,

so I think the Ponzi scheme comparison is kind of apt at this point because it's like a person who works in basically a Ponzi scheme digital jobs agency is going to summer camp for WeWork. Like that sounds like Mad Libby. Wait, no, this is totally, this is totally like Jordan Bell. You know what this anecdote actually is? Well, this anecdote actually is the start of a recipe on the New York Times cooking section. It was the summer of 2017 when I was attending a WeWork summer camp and my tent became completely flooded. And somehow it becomes a recipe for gingerbread cookies. I then read this really motivational message from Abu Bakar al-Baghdadi and it all just kind of came together. Yeah, but this is why the cookies have tahini in them.

The worst crime. Just a touch of infidel blood that gives it that kick. So basically that's like a mama used to make. So what I get from what I can tell WeWork summer camp is basically just like a big private festival for all of the WeWork staff. But where they're encouraged, it seems to sort of act like goofy, happy, overgrown children, which is exactly who we want to be. Well, exactly. They're running a Ponzi scheme. It's not like they're running anything important. It's just annoying. There was a commercial years and years ago in America about like how there was like a summer camp, like a summer reunion for Saturn owners, the weird brand of GM cars Saturn. And it's like,

for some reason, people all went to like a big Saturn conference or was like, drive your Saturn, like hang out with their Saturn owners. And they made a commercial about this. And I was like, I remember as a kid watching, it's like, why in the hell would you want to hang out with But that at least seems more normal than this. I'd love to hang out with other Saturn owners. I just know your identity could be so tied up in your fucking Saturn. Also, for British listeners who don't recognize the brand, Saturn sucked. They were terrible cars and they were really ugly. So, dude, come on. I'd love to hang out with other Saturn owners, but they also weren't like ugly enough to be like a thing. I was like, oh, a fucking Saturn,

like, oh, that classic shit car. Well, here's the thing. If you have, if you go hang out with other Saturn owners, you can talk about what it's like to be a mid-level recruiter outside Des Moines. You can talk about like, yeah, the one time you see thought you saw Jimmy Smith's like all these things are identity politics for Saturn owners. You can talk about what it's like to be a mid-sized gas giant being orbited by layers and layers of asteroids. I was really hoping you wouldn't do that horrible. Yeah. Well, I was just thinking too that, you know, they don't have to have the Saturn conference anymore because basically all those people are on LinkedIn now and cheer memes. And they would probably share WeWork branded content as well as being motivational.

I sold my Saturn. I wanted to get a car that really would have some life where the company would survive. So I bought myself a Saab. They went under. Oh, they did? Okay. You know, Saabs are like a cult thing in Russia because people were really into them and then the company went bust and now they're like super expensive in Russia. They're like the boy racer cars and everyone's trying to buy like Saabs on the black market, like off people's dads like, hey, man, I heard you had a Saab. I'm going to hop back into this. This is where we get, this is why I said earlier it was like that cult from the Simpsons. One of the most moving examples of community came when Augusto Contreras, a community manager at Mexico City's WeWork

Reforma Latino, got down on one knee near a dodgeball tournament and proposed to his long-term girlfriend. Dodgeball? Will you marry me? I felt like I was surrounded by my extended family, said Contreras, who has been with WeWork since January. So people, co-workers, he's known for a few months. He's decided to go for a summer camp with and propose to his girlfriend in front of. Nothing reminds me of my own family more than people throwing hard red balls at me. I was going to say, as his fiancé now, wife actually worked at WeWork or was she dragged along as like family and friends? No, she also works at WeWork. Okay. Cause I was going to say, imagine being like an unaffiliated spouse dragged this weird cult thing and like,

and then you don't even die after drinking Kool-Aid at the end. You don't even get the sweet release of death. Intent's been flooded. Here's where, and who's saying, I'm really interested to hear your reaction is to this. Contreras says the universe seemed to be telling him that he had made the right decision. At one point, he ducked into a tent to get out of the rain. Now there's that rain again. And inside is WeWork co-founder Miguel McKelvie giving a talk about the power of love. It felt like a sign. Fucking people are at this WeWork thing. Eight thousand. Oh wait, shit. Okay. I was like, oh, like 120 people are there. It's probably not that fucking weird to walk into a tent and see one of them. So, I mean, could you just imagine how

big of a thing that would have to be in like, I guess I'm just the scale of it. But then also that you reminded that WeWork has offices in basically every city on the planet. Who's saying, I heard you groan when I talked about the power of love. Yeah. Well, because number one, was he giving a talk about the power of love, like the concept or about the Cindy Law Pertune? I think the concept. You know, so bear in mind that like ever since I read the 12 rules of life, I've realized that love is an unnecessary emotion and that you can replace it with unsalted mounds of meat. But more pertently, like, you know, I don't even know how to respond to that. It's kind of just

like, you know, number one, why are you giving a talk about the power of love at a party? I don't understand. I don't understand. Like, you know, a party for an office space company. Right. Right. But like, you know, were people like doing bumps at this party? Like, what the hell was going? Like, why would why? I don't even know. I don't know what to say. Like, what's schlock? Like, the only true emotion is jihad. Well, it's it's what you're right. It's it's you have to be bought into the to the not not explicitly like the cult that you have to be bought into the mentality like this is a good thing that you want to be a part of to be able to look at this and see anything besides like,

yeah, so I think this weird work encroachment, I think this is this is the thing that we were kind of talking about at the beginning, right? Which is that like, the monetary value of we work is based on property and it's based on real estate. So the company in theory can never fail because so long as like the real estate market in like major cities is relatively solid, like, you can't really go wrong, monetarily speaking. But in order to kind of get people to work in most spaces, and in order to kind of keep getting that like sweet VC funding, like you need to build this kind of strange artificial culture where everyone sort of buys into it, right? Or like the people who the people leading of these kind of like, Instagram entrepreneurs who, you know,

set up fucking streetwear brands and we works, like they need to buy into that culture of oh, if I'm in this space, then not only will I be able to do business really well, but I'll be able to kind of like, do you know, develop myself as a person and I'll be able to, you know, operate at like a level that is beyond every all of my peers, which is kind of what we work, advertise themselves as in any way, right? So, you know, so if you if you're in a we work office, for example, I don't know if it's true now, but back in the year before, like you had to sign a contract, you're part of your contract was, but you would have to go to like mandatory, we work like team events and stuff like that. So like, anything from like, you know, inspirational lectures to,

you know, going to like work with like other companies who operate in the space and the idea being that like, it's supposed to be just like one, you know, this one kind of cultural unit where everyone exists and like sink and they're all just motivated by the same drive to, you know, be really, you know, to make their businesses like the best in the world and, you know, have a real big cultural impact, if that makes sense. And I guess, you know, so when you kind of read this, it is really weird, but it also makes sense that the people who would go to this party are people who really believe in the we work message and they're the people who will post endless stuff on LinkedIn about it. Yeah. Oh, guys, I tell you this before we go back,

so I tell you the story about what happened to me on LinkedIn. Oh my God, wait, I fucking saw this. I think you posted about this. Right. It's like the funniest thing. Right. So like, so I realized the other day that you could actually like, you could just do posts to LinkedIn and I've got like over a thousand, I've got like over like a thousand people who follow me. So I was like, okay, I'm going to do something. Who's saying, are you shitposting on LinkedIn? It's not shitposting, it's being inspirational. So I posted this picture of like, of the Joker and like a with a with a watermark which had corporate bites on it. And it's like, it's like, it was made up quote from the Joker

about like, look into it. He says, look into my eyes and like, you can tell that I really want it. Right. So I posted it and I did like a bunch of hashtags like business deals, inspiration, motivation Monday, there's like all of it you could think of. And I didn't check LinkedIn for ages. And then like the other day, I look, I look, I went, I went back on LinkedIn. And like, there's this guy from like an insurance company in Portland who's just like, oh, like, would you be interested in it? Like I saw your post, would you be interested in working here? So I'm so guys, I'm moving to Portland. Portland insurance is an agent of chaos.

I love insurance Joker. That's incredible. As a quick aside, we're constantly getting these things on the slack for this space that we're in about like invites to similar things. And it all makes sense to me now because at first I was like, why in the hell would I want to hang out with these? Let's go. Let's go. Let's go. Let's go. I guess if that's part of the, if that has now become so ingrained in the sort of like startup culture that it's assumed that any space you rent is going to do that. Like I understand why they would in their own weird asset in the sink way would want to do it. Let's go as soon as the guys are back. Let's all go. Insurance insurance Joker is the best kind. It's actually makes so

much sense. Like he's just selling you insurance. He's like, a nice boat you've got there. Be a shame if somebody blew it up. But you know what you'd want would be a hefty payout to replace your boat. I'm going to, I'm going to do one more line from the we work thing. My favorite part is recapping the whole weekend and, and doing so, sorry, I'm going to start that again. My favorite part is recapping the whole weekend and doing so much. You forgot all the things you did, said Khalila branch community manager at we work, DuPont circle in Washington, DC, like when I fell skating. Like when I fell skating, I forgot about that about that one, but laughed all over again remembering. And it was like, damn, when did we skate?

I also took catamine. That's like, it appeals to these daffy idiots who just can't remember what they did for like a week. And then they get back and it's like, oh, it's sweet. My office heck. I can skateboard in here and they have free health food. Awesome. Yeah. I wonder if insurance joker company in Portland would have a similar work culture, or if it would be like a particularly Pacific Northwest, like chilled out version of this, that like you have to go live on, live in the woods on your own wits. These people are all psychotically happy, but desperate to be seen by one another. It fucking rules. These people, these people are the hat. These people are all going to survive climate change because they're

all going to work together and just they're going to sacrifice one another to save Miguel, so he can continue talking about the power of love from on top of a raft made of like humans who are all delighted to be drowning for him. I will fucking lie. Like the amount of Jarrah, this is my we work co-working space in Westchester, Pennsylvania, and we're going to be force feeding, fill vegan raisins. Sorry, I was just going to say that you're a the like level of like not just a vitriol, but the knowledge about we work makes it seem like you guys like tried to get a we work style start up really badly. And so you're just like dedicating your podcast to just fucking dunking on them because you're like our startup would

have been so much better. Yeah, exactly. What most people, what most people don't realize about we work is that it's actually an old Scott's Gallic term, which means small work. All right, I'm ready to leave that section there. It's not our fault though. Like we weren't, couldn't understand the concept of a business podcast, which was basically rooted in looking at how you would distribute vials of cum. Jesus Christ, you're saying. Yeah, by a refrigerated truck, we talked about this. It's a refrigerated truck. Yeah, they actually make the cum in the truck on the way to you. It's a refrigerated truck, which also sells. It's just a truck full of guys jacking it.

No, it's a refrigerated truck, which also sells pizza. Come on, we work. Let us be in your venue. I promise we won't start a cum delivery service. Look, the pizza's okay. All I'm saying is don't order the pizza Bianca because that ain't cheese. All right. All right. All right, everybody. Oh boy. I fucking hate this podcast. I told you we were cursed by a witch. Anyway, where did you guys get this pizza? Hey, it fell off a truck anyway. Okay. So now that we've all been put into a very strange mood by reading about what appears to be a death cult, shall we go on to the other content? Yes, please. That's a rhetorical question because we're going to

Sarah, you've written recently written a piece in the Statesman about Tumblr making some, let's say, changes. I really fucking wish that I could have just kept sitting here and letting you guys destroy your own podcast before my eyes and me just getting to like, occasionally ask questions rather than having to actually talk on this fucking thing that I've come on. Slowly filling out your application for the WeWork editor job. Yeah, no. So if you follow the internet, Tumblr, as of, I think, I don't know when this podcast comes out, but it might be by the time. Tuesday. Okay. Yes. As of yesterday is banning porn, which is a very sad loss. And to be honest, like, I, well, I'm probably going to listen to this,

but like, I don't use Tumblr for porn, but I think a shitload of people do use Tumblr for porn. And like, just artsy titty pics. No, no. What do you know? Nothing. Shut up. So I'm actually going to read from your. I actually use Pinterest for porn. I actually use YouTube for porn, logic porn. So just jacket it to Jordan Peterson. No, so I'm going to read from your article here. I'd like to stop writing the same piece over and over again, but tech companies keep making dreadful choices to alienate their users forcing me, you to beat this drum. It seems like until the day I die. And now here I am again writing

another iteration of his article, but this time about Tumblr, which has now banned porn. So what do you mean that they have, that how has this alienated their users? So I guess like with Tumblr, like a shitload of people on there, like, like the thing about Tumblr is I think that most people who don't really use it think that Tumblr is just like, we're artsy girls, like go and post like sad poems or like pictures of fucking grimes, like with like, you know, funky backgrounds and things like that. But like, Tumblr is like a shitload of like, not just porn, but like artsy, as I said, like titty pics and like nice like ass pictures with roses and stuff like that. And like, I don't even mean

that disparagingly. Despite my tone. Yeah. So like, when Tumblr then comes out and is like, Oh, actually, we're going to just leave it to the sad poems and like artsy girl lyrics and things like that. Then everybody's like, Oh, shit, like I was using this terrible platform that doesn't really like help users do anything other than post poems and porn. And now I'm only going to have poems, which is kind of boring. So yeah. And here we are. So now, yeah, it's not going to be like, I mean, to be fair, maybe it'll be like, Oh, actually, no, we really got into the artsy poems. I don't mean to keep beating that. Yeah. And it's a fine line to tread because I mean, if you go on my Tumblr and you look at the first picture, sure, it may look like a picture of a

man showing you his asshole. But when you look at it very closely, tattooed around his asshole is actually a rupee call pipe about how everything's her ex-boyfriend's fault. That's where the Tumblr world's collide. So was there was there any like stated justification like why they would want to do this? I mean, I think it's like the idea and it's and this is the thing is like, I've been writing a lot about porn and like jizz for the new statesman lately. It's very, very, very, very on brand podcasts that you're on. Yeah. So and like everybody's like, Oh, are you the porn lady now? And I'm like, I fucking guess. But yeah, I guess they're like, Oh, there are a lot of kids on this website. So maybe we shouldn't have like tattooed assholes

on it. But there are a lot of kids on Google. I was going to say that I'm like Twitter, like fucking. Yeah. Like if you followed Ted Cruz a year ago, like you have had like Ted Cruz like this and some fucking like, you know, 9 11, never forget. Exactly. Well, that's the thing. I guess I'm a Christian conservative, which is why my kids are only allowed to follow Ted Cruz. I can't say that's going wrong. So the actual rule, the actual, sorry, no, we were actually in in something good here. I was just thinking about, yeah, about you mentioned Twitter that Twitter, Twitter manages only it seems to like clean up certain things when they've been really publicly shamed for it. But porn never seems to be on their

radar. Even though Twitter, if I remember correctly, Twitter's rules actually expressly prohibit porn, like in people's avatars or being shared on the platform and they just never enforced that. Whereas it seems like Tumblr, that Twitter is also famous for other things like Nazis. Whereas Tumblr, like it really was what you're describing. It's like arguments about stuff that Angela Nagel thinks turns you into a Nazi and gender stuff. And then lots of porn and like porn animated gifts. But to me, I'm just wondering like, did they decide they were going to enforce something or do they actually change the rules and say, no, it's completely. So this is like the other beautiful element of this ban, which is like a classic, like all of them fucking

trying to do this. And then it just goes like horrifically wrong, even beyond the fact that it like, even if we're going to go like, I was a business decision, it's a bad idea, is like, they don't, they obviously have like an algorithm where they like put in a boob and they were like, if you recognize this boob formation, that is a boob, do not let that, like, do you see the areola? Like, please get rid of this content. So like now people are posting like, like the stuff that's been marked as like bad content. And it'll be like a fucking mannequin head or like, you know, like a naked mannequin, it's got like a little bit of a dick bulge. And so they're like, and then tumblers like, Oh, this is porn porn. Yeah. But if Matt McGory comes in

and you put his nipples on the pictures, then it's totally fine. That's not against you. You remember that right? I fucking know this Matt McGory reference. That was a great reference. He was weird. And he was like, he just decided a male feminist guy. The male that really, really, yeah, over like, he's like, I'm an aggressive male feminist. And he was like, well, if you, if your nipples are censored on tumbler or somewhere, he's like, you can just use, you can Photoshop in photos of my nipples from when I was a bodybuilder. Here are all my shirt shirtless pics. And it was just the weirdest sort of like, I suppose your heart's in the right place, but you're insane. No, that's such a great way to carry off that one specific fetish

just like I want my nipples. I want every woman to have my nipples. That's my specific fetish. The tumbler porn ban has given me the perfect avenue to carry this out. If I actually have the text traveling around town in the back of a van, jacking it to pictures of chase with his nipples. So I've got the actual rule change here. It's all images, videos or gifts that show real life human genitals or female presenting nipples. So that's why he was, you can use my genitals. Well, yeah, but that's just, I don't know that the more I learned about tumbler, the more I'm like, you're literally cutting off the one loyal user base you have. He also, the CEO, this means that we can, we can post the Yu-Gi-Oh Dragon Dick guy because that's not a real life

human channel. Oddly enough, yeah, though. Well, that's allowed because those are male presenting because it's artsy. Yeah, that actually, there is an exception for that is artistic, educational newsworthy or political content featuring nudity and Yu-Gi-Oh Dragon Dick is all of those. Yeah, it's probably the content for sure. Some of the rumors being floated were that it was done as a business decision because oath, the new holding company that controls it felt they couldn't sell ad space next to pornography, but you're saying it actually probably wasn't a business decision or if it was, it was a dumb one. Porn sites famously devoid of ads. I can never remember saying an ad on a porn site. Yeah, but that's the thing is like, it like, so not only or at least

like Yahoo, which I think owns tumbler now, they were like, oh, our user base is up 40% and like, oh, like we haven't had any issues, like sales aren't down, sales are only going up. So like, it doesn't, it doesn't seem to be preceded by any, like other than just like, if they were like, oh, we want to sell more. And we think this is like the fucking squeaky wheel and tumbler that needs fixing. Like, yeah, like, I don't think it is preceded by anything. I think that everything seems to be going like just fine for them. And there are plenty of weird things on top or like, at least like on tumbler, there's porn that's like child porn, like we really want to get into it. And like, like really bad shit like that. And that's suitable for children.

But yeah, so it's like sound to what's suitable for kids. So yeah. Sarah, please go ahead. Oh, I was just going to say to fucking just end this. Yes. It doesn't seem to be like, I guess it could be an odd thing, but I mean, it doesn't, they don't have a need for that, at least like it because it would make sense when you think about Twitter, like Twitter had a hard time selling because they were unable to sell to like, I think it was to Disney, wasn't it? Because they have so many problems with basically if they banned all the Nazis and they banned the

people that were trading porn or sharing porn publicly, they would lose such a huge amount of their user base. Oh, this is in their annual report. They call them very important tweeters. And so yeah, the VITs. So basically their key metric for their company's valuation goes down with every high profile Nazi they ban. So they don't ban the high profile Nazis. They avoid it if they can wait. So, but would they're like very important tweeters, then also be things like at squirters vid? Probably gets a lot of traffic. Speaking of squirters vid, the famous segue on the show. So the thing, the thing I kind of also wanted to highlight was the fact that like this

tumblr porn tends to be different for like pornhub porn, right? Like tumblr porn tends to be, no, you can't be universalized on the basis of a platform, but it seems that people are sort of saying this was a place where people could explore alternative sexualities. It was generally considered sort of safer. And if there were some elements of it that were Matt McGarry's nipples on them, some elements of it that were more like female friendly, etc. Is there any credence to that? I mean, I think there is like at least anecdotally, like I do think like a lot of people were upset because they're like, oh, tumblr porn was like, you know, like very sweet, wholesome gifts or it wasn't all just like women just like getting fucking slammed from behind like as hard as

they fucking can like. And so like, and not that that's all fucking pornhub. That's actually like, I mean, I, I, the more tape, I had seen people who are sex workers or people that do like their, I can't remember what the name of the platform is, but basically it's like a way that people, it's like a patreon for porn. Yes, exactly. They were complaining about the fact that tumblr was actually a really good venue for them to share things like as like teaser kind of stuff to get more clients and more subscribers. Like so Avery Edison, who's like a trans woman who is really big on Twitter, she like sells essentially like, like she'll send you for 10 pounds, I think like 10 titty picks essentially. And she was saying like how fucking glad she was that she wasn't

using tumblr for that because so many people were and now it's like your whole business, like literally, yeah, it's like your patreon has just been closed down and like there's no alternative. Yeah, I was just thinking about that. If you, if you, if a platform, if tomorrow patreon comes out and they're like, sorry, no more irony podcasts. Well, so much for so much for our studio. We're back to your living room, Riley. You know, it's like one of those. So you are so dependent on a platform and I mean, it didn't seem, I mean tumblr wouldn't necessarily be monetized, but certainly like if you had a big following, that's how you would get people and get people's attention. And so it's like for that to just go away all of a sudden. It seems

like it reminds me of like Facebook changing its video algorithm and all of a sudden these literal content factories that were formed around sharing Facebook content go bankrupt overnight because all of a sudden they can't share videos. Yeah, exactly. So I think what we've learned is down. Let's be real. We'll move the podcast into a van moving around the city cause we make the podcast for you while you wait. So I think what we can learn here is tech companies should really only ban Nazis, stop banning some Nazis. Well, I mean, I don't even know if you have to like reduce it to a, to a rule, but it does seem like doing that to transition to the next thing. Of course. Yeah. But, but they do seem, I mean, I don't know, Sarah, you, you having reported

on this, do you feel like, do you feel like there was enough of a problem that they had to tamp down on this and solve it? Or was it just like an arbitrary decision? Well, and this is like why I wrote that like opening line that Riley quoted. It's like, they all have these like massive problems. Like Tumblr, I like, I will admit, I'm not as like well-versed on like the niches of why Tumblr, what Tumblr needs fixing and stuff. But like with all of these fucking companies, like even like PayPal, Twitter, Facebook, like they're like, again, they'll like find like the tiniest, niches thing that might like have some elements that are problematic or like in a news headline to like a fucking mom, they'll be like, Oh yeah, that sounds great. No

more porn. Super. My kid loves that shitposting website. And so then they're able to say like, okay, oh, we're doing this good thing. Even though like there's a massive problem they actually have, they'll make their users happy. Like it really doesn't make any fucking sense. It's just like people being cowards if we're going to be like entirely unironic about it. No, I mean, that's a sort of cut your segue. No, I think that's a good place to transition into the YouTube, most hated YouTube video in history, which I think is another excellent example of these tech companies just fundamentally not understanding what their users want and what it is that they do. So for a little background, YouTube released YouTube video in history that

poops the most downvoted ever. Yes, which is then probably dethrones that Rick Perry ads. It's baby by Justin Bieber. Oh, my bad. Baby had accumulated. It's eight million or so downvotes over years. It's like, yeah, it like smashed it. That song is incredible though, because of the ludicrous rap, like in the middle of that song is like one of the best. It's like one of the most amazing things I've ever heard. Just because like, so at the time when this was when Justin Bieber was like a pop singer and not just like, can we like do an episode about Justin Bieber one day? Because I think like I'm just so fascinated by his transformation right now and how like he's gone from, he's gone from this like, you know, this pristine looking like pop star who was

supposed to become like, you know, or who was supposed to be, I guess, what Shawn Mendes is now. And now all he does is just like hang out with Post Malone and he looks like a, he looks like someone who definitely listens to Chapo or like listens to like, or who would listen to us. I'm very excited. I'm very excited for Justin Bieber to like start hanging out with Adam 22. I think that's going to be pretty cool. So the YouTube video was downloaded massively. In effect, this most unpopular YouTube, unpopular YouTube video in history, I think does demonstrate this tech companies don't understand their user base and they don't understand what they want. They don't understand what they do. The YouTube rewind is where they

make a video, they commission it to have all of sort of the year's most popular and influential creators come together and make something to make some review of what was what happened in that year. It's usually a relatively anodyne affair because what people don't realize is that everything on YouTube is actually recorded onto one massive VHS tape. And at the end of each year, they have to rewind it before replacing it with a new one. So what, but what was sort of notable about this, about this video, why it was so relentlessly downvoted? I mean, who's saying you've got some theories about this? I have some fairies. I've got some fairies. Okay, so this was like completely expected. And what it, I think what it ultimately shows is what YouTube would like to

think it is and what it actually is. So the rewind video of 2018 is kind of just showcases some of like the platform's biggest creators, but also like their most kind of milk toast content creators. So like guys like Casey Neistat, who's who I met a few weeks, I think I mentioned this on another show, but yeah, I went to his work, I went to his weird YouTube and actually, no, the weird YouTube party is actually very indicative of like what, you know, this conversation, because for them, like these are people who really believe in the platform as kind of like this way of this kind of like sense of like non political empowerment. So like for YouTube, like they want to just hang out with filmmakers. So they want to hang out with guys like Casey, who just make films about their

everyday lives, which resonate with like, you know, millions of people every day. Or there's like, you know, there was some other guys who are in that video who were also at that party and they like make cooking videos and stuff like that. So these are kind of like the feel good YouTube's, you know, you know, like the YouTube of like, maybe, I don't know, like 2010, right? Where you would go on because like, you know, you just wanted to procrastinate and you wanted to watch like the Rebecca Black Friday video. You know, and everything was just like fun and good. The latest Tai Okras musical release. But now like YouTube is so much bigger, right? Because YouTube encompasses pretty much like everything we know about like streaming services and online

television. And, you know, so the people who were like downloading these videos were a different generation of YouTubers. They were people who, you know, believe that guys like Casey Neistat and like Lilly Singh and stuff are kind of represented with this like social justice warrior class of people on the platform who YouTube will automatically prioritize because they're not problematic, while at the same time they will de-platform, you know, cool new YouTubers like Stefan Molyneux and his race and his race science theories or like, you know, fucking Richard Spencer and all his like all his acolytes. That's that's that's the one that's the one thing, right? This whole YouTube rewind was a group of YouTubers who no one's ever heard of, except for Ninja,

who isn't a YouTuber but does rule, sitting around a campfire talking about how they've been empowered to learn and create and try new things, whatever, all that dumb shit. But really, if they did want to have it be representative of the platform as it is, Stefan Molyneux should have been there with calipers measuring all of their skulls. Well, this is the thing, we've talked about this before, but it's like it's like that time when I fell asleep watching a YouTube video and I woke up and like I woke up to like a fucking Ben Shapiro video. It was a Joe Rogan show, but with Ben Shapiro on. Got irrational.

And when I tweeted this out, I had like a bunch of people message and like, you know, respond by saying, oh, yeah, this has happened to me too, right? Well, like within like five videos on YouTube, like because of this algorithm, I end up like watching Jordan Peterson shit, or I end up watching like Sargon of Akkad and stuff like that, right? These kind of, you know, you know, what you call it, like these classical liberal people who believe that like all of politics is really just about, you know, the right to say the N word, you know, in public. And, you know, you know, stuff like that, right? Like things that we talk about. The real freedom of speech.

Like stuff we talk about here all the time. Yeah, the only freedom of speech that counts for them. And if you think about it, like so much of YouTube culture is revolved around most people. So when we talk about YouTube, for example, these days, we're not really talking about Casey Neistat. We're not really talking about like Lilly Singh and like these kind of vlogger types. What we're really talking about are these dangerous, you know, these dangerous fucking race realists who are using the platform to get kids to kind of, you know, to get kids to kind of think that being racist is actually really, really rational. You know, and so well as I'm not a

race pessimist, I'm a race. And the problem is, is that like YouTube, like lots of other tech platforms are completely like, they don't really want to address this problem. So what they say is that, you know, they give lots of platitudes along the lines of, oh, we're trying to kind of like, you know, stamp out hate speech on the platform, and we'll try to like, you know, demonetise people and stuff like that. But they've never really kind of confronted the fact that they've created this system, which in which like these people can basically gain the algorithm to get like massive amounts of exposure in a way that like the platform was not ready for. So what they would rather do instead is kind of go back to a time when everyone loved YouTube and YouTube was all

about cat videos and, you know, epic mealtime and stuff like that. So it's Zoella's advent calendar, but inside the December 24th cupboard is actually a chute stuff or metal. I think you're forgetting that there were only 12 days in the Zoella advent calendar. Let's see. I think the joke went so far over my head. But I was thinking about this because the cat jumping over the gate video is now having a race science podcast. I was just thinking about this, not as much with YouTube, but with Twitter. The people that have encountered there actually worked at Twitter didn't use Twitter the way that people who are way too online use Twitter. And I could only imagine that the same thing is true with YouTube

that like even if they're a certain degree of like content moderation, they have to perform like the people who are who are who would be in charge or be involved in the decision-making of making a video like the something that's like massive on the corporate communication side for them. Like probably don't realize what how YouTube is delivered, you know, who uses YouTube, why they use it, how they use it, like how that language works. And so in the same way that if Twitter made like the best tweets of the year from like what the people who work at Twitter think people on Twitter want to read, it wouldn't be representative. And but YouTube just seems way more vehement, way more aggressive in terms of like the kind of like anger that its fanbase

is able to materialize. If Twitter did the best tweets of 2018, Riley's stupid tweet, they got like 15k retweets would be on there, but it makes me really angry. Way more than that. Wait, which one was that? I don't want to do a tweet recap on the podcast. I mean, at its core, that's what the show is on the podcast and in real life all the time. It was the the babe station. It was the babe station. Remember, it's day one. Oh, yeah. Yeah. We're the way you call. Oh, I thought it was going to be the Coachella one. I thought that was all that one. Look, I've got a lot of good tweets guys. There's too much good content. We can't recap at all. Sorry. I think, I think we can almost kind

of, we can kind of really synthesize a couple of things here, right? Which is that the same type of people who go to the we work summer camp are the people who are trying to decide what YouTube really means because we work doesn't mean summer camp. We work means people who have like no job security working 16 hours, like producing content for other similar companies along in the same. They went over this. It means small work. But we work is just a way, it's a way for sort of unincreasingly alienated and dispossessed, sort of globally transient working class to just like get continually get fucked, but they have to put a big smile on it. The same thing with this.

Like also, like on like what Hussein was saying as well, like, so I a lot of what I write about is about that kind of like more normie like YouTube culture and stuff. And like, I have like, I know some teens and my like younger sister is like somebody who's like the classic case that she was like watching YouTube when she was like 13, 14. And now she's like 22. Yeah, exactly. And now she's a fascist destroys SJW in debate. But so like she, but she was saying like, I was like, Oh, what did you think of YouTube Rewind? Because she is not like, she is very much the like, watch his beauty bloggers, watch his like normal vloggers, that kind of shit. And she was even like, Oh, I fucking hated this

video because it is like the most sanitized version of even like the most normie of content that YouTube has to offer, like Lisa Kashi or whatever the fuck who like had the crying breakdown was like the only person I think I recognize in that whole thing. But like even then, like even some of like the makeup bloggers that were on that, they're like, Oh, this person is only famous because they were big enough at the beginning. And now because of the YouTube algorithm, when you search fucking like Kim Kardashian makeup tutorial, her video is the one that's at the top. And that's why she looks like she's like this enormous following, even though nobody's actually that committed to her fan wise. Got it. I mean, yeah, that's interesting to me because

it seems like we complain about other social media platforms making tone deaf things. Twitter being an example of just like some of the dumb decisions they make. But they didn't give Laura Lu Rebecca account. But I feel like one thing that's interesting about Twitter or about YouTube is that it does seem like they're doing the real kind of we work pissing us off in front of the Twitter offices. Yeah, but it's like that there's such an extent to which they're just not going to acknowledge that this stuff is like this is what your platform is really popular for. It's Jordan Peters videos. Well, and like, and so, and I was saying this thing before we got on, like, I was like a very early days, like really early, like,

they had maybe like less than 10,000 subscribers, maybe like in like, you know, just in the hundreds, like H three productions subscriber, and they obviously went like off the fucking rails in the last couple of years. But like, they like, Ethan Klein did like a reaction video to YouTube rewind. And he essentially said like, for obviously the wrong reasons, exactly what Hussein said, which he's like, this platform is PewDiePie. This platform is John Tron. Like, why don't we acknowledge like, the amazing innovative work those guys have done this year. And that is true. And like, it's like, this was like the fucking suicide force here. This was like the Logan Paul Jake Paul year. Like before these guys, no one knew that you could film dead bodies in a forest

in Japan, but that the Lisbon blown off. Yeah, exactly. That's the fucking innovation we've seen this year and like teaching new things. All I can say is that I didn't know what the N word was until John Tron until I found out what John Tron was. And now I realize that it's very fundamental to our freedom of speech. And I am willing to travel all the way to international waters with a might with a with a megaphone and save the N word and no one can arrest me. But Hussein, I was thinking about this too, because you talked about this going to Canada at the same time with your cousin, that like you were exposed to the extent to which like gamer YouTube and like this weird politics, like right wing internet politics YouTube had such

currency with kids. His he's like, what 17, right? Yeah. Yeah. So like, I have cousins who are like in their teens and like, they kind of fit the profile of I imagine what a school shooter would probably be like in America. I spent a lot of time like, you know, playing video games. And because of like, and this is also another thing, like video games are such a Is that your only fucking qualification for school? Yeah, school shooter got hold of the most dangerous weapon of all the N word. I was going to say logic, but you beat me. No one died, but a lot of people are very upset. Like a lot of people video games are really important.

Generally, because of how they integrate of how they integrate with like YouTube, YouTube like more widely, right? So when they play video games, they're not just playing video games in the same way, but like, you know, you used to play on PlayStation two or whatever. But like, you know, it's now part of this like integrated online experience. So like, you're streaming onto YouTube or onto Twitch while you're playing games and like, you know, you're having these kind of political conversations while you're playing video games, right? So really for a lot of a lot of people like my cousins, like the times when they can really engage with like social politics is while they're playing video games,

right? That's like the time when they talk about back when you were playing cool borders, there was no way to say the N word to people. You know, so like my video games are really important to understand the mechanics of how to carry out a school shooting. Well, here's an example, right? So like my 17 year old cousin is currently applying for university and he wants to study economics. And he wrote a personal statement that he sent to me and part of his personal statement, it's really bizarre because it goes from just like a standard personal statement. I did this and this in school to this massive rant about why the, why the wage gap doesn't exist and how it's all this feminist propaganda. And I was kind

of saying to him, but there was absolutely no way that you can apply to like Manchester University with like, with, with, with, with, with, with a personal statement about like, you copied and pasted from one website and then you just decided to like rant on a Sargonovac ad video for the other one. And then he replied, he's the response to me by saying, how did you know that I watched Sargonovac ad videos? And I was just like, come on, dude, come on, dude. Right. So then like, as I'm kind of interrogating this more, what I'm finding out is that like, he's been watching this videos in part because whenever he's been playing video games, you know, that's the stuff that they talk about, those are the videos that they share. You know, so just like the fact that

that's his main exposure, like they don't really talk about this stuff at school or like in places where you should have those conversations, because like you have teachers that are just not about equipped to do it. That means that their main source of political conversation comes from like, you know, fucking American incels in their like mid 20s, who like just, you know, who are just, we just like obsess about this shit all the time. Right. That's really important. We need people to be getting there, getting their politics some more reputable sources, like the Joe Rogan experience. I mean, I noticed that I was to check to see how things looked on our show. I was on an Android device used like a pretty, one of the top ranked

podcasting apps. And when I wasn't logged into my account, it just kept trying to make me listen to the Joe Rogan experience over and over again. And so it's just one of those things where it's like everywhere you go, you realize just how game it is basically. So all the algorithms are like, a boy, every girl dates in her early 20s. What? Trying to make you listen to the Joe Rogan experience all the time. Okay. So basically, that's actually what doing DMT is like. You just listen to the Joe Rogan experience over and over again. I mean, I mean, what we're really describing here is dark energy Riley, right? Well, I just wonder because lately bold you mentioned this with your, with your, uh, with your younger sister, Sarah,

and I was wondering like if I were, for example, like if I briefly when I was in school taught, like an English class basically to undergraduates, if I was encountering people in like their late teens or late twenties who were into this, I would have no idea because I wouldn't know the references. Like I'm, I swear there's like an age threshold that either get YouTube or you're don't. And I'm way above it. And I'm wondering like with, with this stuff, do you feel like this is a thing that the only people who can explain it, who can really understand it or people that like have proximity to it? Or do you feel like there's, there's a way to understand like whether or not this stuff is, is being enabled by the companies, um, you know, if you're as a,

as an outsider, basically. Well, like, I, and I'm sure Hussein would be able to talk on this as well, but like, I do feel like with YouTube especially, it's almost like global warming. It's like you can do a kind of amount to like teach people about it, but it's like been going on for so fucking long and it's so fucking layered. Like the amount of effort it takes to explain like, like Jordan Peterson, like, and his like all beef diet and like presumably rock hard shits, like that is so hard to fucking unpack for someone, like why that's like kind of like it's so hard, like, and it's so fucking takes so much work. And, and I only understand because it's bubbled to the surface at this point. Like if Jordan Pearson was only like

a couple million views per video, I wouldn't have any idea who he was. Well, yeah. And it's like, and instead like here he is like fucking like, and he's like, I mean, seriously, like it is so layered and it's been going on for so long. Like I even remember again, like not to keep talking about H3 productions. Um, like they were talking about how bad the YouTube algorithm was, like in like 2011, 2010, where they were showing how like, because they're both like the Ethan and Hila Klein who run that account are both Jewish and they were living in Israel when they started it. Um, and all of the like suggested accounts, like back then, like almost 10 years ago that were coming up were like all like Jews did 9-11

accounts, even back then. So like it really has been going on for so long and only now we're just like, Oh God, the planet is a little bit warmer. Like maybe we should do something about it. And they're like, Oh, we'll die in like 50 years, but like we can kind of delay it. So it's more like 60. And I think that's the like exact same thing with YouTube. No one bothers to fact check these videos, you know, like we all know that you didn't do 9-11. It was George Bush. They don't have the upper body strength. It's kind of rooted in like internet culture generally. So like even in the pre YouTube days, you know, anyone who was like, anyone who spent like time online regularly could kind of fight work, you know, could easily find like anti-Semitic like shit

anywhere they wanted to, right? Or they could easily find like lots of really dark and quite dangerous racist stuff. And really the question would just be like, you know, there would be specific places where you could get them from. So like, you know, back in like the early 2000s, like 4chan was that place, right? Like no one really knew what 4chan was. And it was only if you were like a shit, you know, or an 8chan or whatever, like, it was only if like you were like an internet shithead who spent their life on ebombs world that you would kind of find those places. The issue now is that like, because everyone is sort of like migrated to the same platforms, it becomes like, you know, whereas before you'd have to go and search out that content

with the understanding that like, it's only in both spaces where that kind of like weird and dangerous shit can exist because you understand that like, these are places which have their own rules. Now it's like, okay, well, we're going to take all the really awful shit that you found on like ebombs world and 4chan, like, you know, we're just going to put it all on Twitter or we're going to put it all on YouTube. And at the same time, you've got like big tech companies who want to monopolize the internet, right? So, you know, every social media company has put out reports recently about what they're going to be, what they're doing about hate speech or what they're doing about violence on social media platforms. None of none of which are like particularly

very introspective and all of which are kind of saying but as we continue to grow, or as we continue to kind of like seize up kind of more significant parts of the internet, like we're going to add these, you know, we're going to add a couple more like safety, safety, you know, measures but like nothing really substantial. And in the meantime, we're going to go take like jollies and fucking Myanmar, you know, you know, where we're just not going to bust for like two months and record it all on our Apple phone or Apple watches, right? But you know, I do also think, oh, go ahead. Yeah, I mean, that's really it's kind of like one of the big problems is the fact that like everyone sort of exists on the same platforms. And it is opening up this fundamental

question about like, well, how can everyone exist in the same place and also be safe and you know, stuff like that. So for my feeling is that like, unless you can find a way to kind of go back to old models of how the internet used to work, where everything used to be like a bit more decentralized and decompartmentalized, like, I'm not really sure what the solution is because you're right, like this has been like an ongoing problem for such a such a long time. But in many ways, like a lot of us who spend a lot of time online have just kind of come to accept that this is the world that we're in. And that also like brings up this big gulf between people who, you know, like, you know, fucking boomers who like don't understand how the internet works, right?

And they're the ones who are like most susceptible to this shit. So I don't know. Well, and also like, I think the other thing as well, like for me at least, is that you see these guys and it kind of goes on to the fact that like we're only just now looking at it, even though it's been going on for fucking ever, like they've learned how to package themselves, like they've learned like Jordan Peterson is like the best example. And like, I mean, to be honest, like people like fucking Sam Harris R2, but like you, like they've learned how to make themselves like to stay right on the edge of that line where they're like, you can't say I'm overtly racist. Like I didn't say the N word, like I didn't say anything like about again, shoes doing 9 11,

like, so they've learned how to like use the language and game the system where like then tech companies can like pretend like they have plausible deniability and they're like, well, this like he's just saying like he's just challenging conventional wisdom. Yeah, like he doesn't say you have to have a rock art shit. He just says sometimes they have like it's just like it's that kind of stuff and like it really, it really helps them get away and that's where I'm kind of like there's no hope we're all going to die, but also they make so much money off of it too. I mean, it's so monetized. The thing is like it's like if I'm going to do my I'm going to do that the Marxist thing again, where I say though, here's what he would say about that is that there

is no such thing as an institution that isn't an expression of some power relationship, right? So you could say the courts are not actually neutral arbiters of right and wrong or the law or whatever they exist to protect property relations in the same way. None of these algorithms that are sort of causing people to sort of to fall asleep watching a gaming video and wake up like seeing over a white nationalist. No juicing to work on 9-11 yet. None of that is neutral either. It's not just saying, well, we're going to give people the content that they that we think they like. Like it ultimately does reveal the fact that these companies do tend to have, even if they state that they have a socially liberal bias, they are

fundamentally reactionary entities and by catering to what people want, but just what people want in terms of what gaps captures their attention, right? Like I've said, I've said before many times like fascism is a kind of politics that is attention grabbing because it organizes like people around having their attention grabbed and being excited. And so of course, any platform that aims monopolize people's attention and monetizes itself by monopolizing their attention. And it's the one place you can go for videos. Well, what it's going to do is of course, it's going to direct people towards fascism because that's just the most profitable and it just sort of makes sense. And so the fact that they had a whole video about shit that inspired them to do like a

makeup tutorial for the rest of us or whatever is just make people so furious. Yes. Like because I want my racism. I want my calipers. I want my SJW is getting owned by Ben Shapiro. And it's like this thing they want to go on YouTube for. They wanted that. As Lenin once said, they claim that this milk hotel is neutral, but no milk hotel could really be neutral. It is in fact, counter-revolutionary. Oh my God. So that, but yeah, that's, well, Nate, you think you're sort of half right, which is, yeah, there are a lot of people who are saying, put PewDiePie on the video as though the video matters. It's just kind of, it's again, it's just the WeWork summer camp of videos.

That doesn't really matter. But it's the, then the rest of us are saying, no, be honest about what you are. That's why everyone hated it. The Nazis hated it and everyone else hated it. I think the four people who actually go on YouTube for makeup tutorials probably liked it. I also, if I have a year in YouTube recap, it's that that woman went and shot up the YouTube office because she was furious that they stopped her from monetizing her like insane. If I remember correctly, they're like insane conspiracy theory makeup videos, like they were a combination of like she's it's like get ready with me while I tell you something along those lines, but she was, she was literally, I mean that was they,

they demonetized her video and so she went to their office and basically shot. But mercifully, she, she wounded some people in the office and then killed herself. Well, the other problem is, is a private company that is able to then, that is able to then determine the profitability of a whole bunch of other businesses becomes like a sort of super business. I also think that people who don't work in digital marketing or haven't had any proximity to that don't realize how much people were up until recently making on YouTube, like how much money monetized videos were making and like how much incentive there was to like go with whatever was going to get the most eyeballs. And apparently as we've learned from

the internet, what gets eyeballs is racism and nudes. And basically like they can't do one, but they can definitely do the other. I was just thinking actually it's kind of weird how like different the Nazis are now to how the Nazis, like the Nazis now are all like YouTube bedroom dwelling types. And it just made me think of like, I remember when I was doing GCSE history and there was all this like weird pathologizing of Hitler, like what made Hitler into Hitler? Was it that he got gassed in the war? And then I'm just imagining a version of Ed Sparrow. It's like Hitler would never have done it if he'd have just been able to say the n-word on a game. He would have gotten out of his system.

I guarantee that if you set up a Twitch account and you said that people would probably agree with you. Wait, could that be my side hustle? Could I finally make some money? But that's the other thing. We say also, we said boomers don't understand this and they're the ones who are trying to legislate it. So this is someone who's like, you know, Senator Tech's Avery, he's just getting rootin' and tootin' mad because he thinks that YouTube is sort of shadow banning a diamond and silk or whatever, right? Well, it's like fucking Chuck Astley, who like has been tweeting for like 10 years and still doesn't know how to like fucking like hit sends like seriously.

But so none of these people actually know how it works. Shadow banning, dark Steve banning. Even darker banning? Damn. He was able to steal an antarctic election. Like Steve banning, but like we're wearing Joker makeup. Oh, no, sorry. That's Milo. So that's too twisted for me. I can't be dealing with that. And the thing is, the legislators, like what they have done is they've basically identified the problem as, of course, there's an SJW lib bias. And so the tech companies have essentially all just been pandering more and more to these, again, to these right-wingers who are just demanding

that they get more and more fascist. Well, yeah, because I mean, they don't operate in good faith ever, but Google apparently wants to, it thinks it can be credible by being like, well, we're just listening to both sides when one side is very obviously manipulating. So anyway, I think like Sarah said, it's like climate change. It's bad, it's gonna get worse, and our legislators are just making the problem even worse. Well, there it is. Like we'll have a future where we all live in a wee work, where we're all protected, where we're all protected from like, you know, with every word except for the N word. Perfect. Yeah. And it'll be great. So everything will be fine.

Listeners, you can choose whose ending you preferred. My vision, where we all die, or Hussein's, where we all die inside. All right. All right. Perfect. I think that's that about Terzit. We've been recording for quite a while. Shall we all go home to our families? Yes, please. Cool. All right. Sarah, thank you very much for coming on today. Yeah, it's been, it's actually been horrible. Sweet. Perfect. You can find Sarah on Twitter at Sarah Manavis or Minavis. Good job, Riley. Like fucking seriously. Thank you. English person. I got it. I got it wrong. It's always the

Manavis. Yes. Tip your hat at the phone. It's really not fucking hard guys. In the meantime, we have a Patreon, which you can support $5 a month. You get a second episode. You can also commodify your descent with a t-shirt from a little comrade. Maybe get the entire script of the YouTube Rewind 2018 video printed on it. Give Edie something to do. Please don't do that. And finally, you can find our theme song. Oh, we have merch now as well, apart from the t-shirts. Yeah. We'll link it in the show notes. We've made some festive trash fuchsia themed mugs for soup or other kinds of soup, which you can purchase on our Teespring. So I'll link to

that as well. That's news to me. Yeah. Well, always busy, always motivating. Always motivating. We're all business jokers. And then finally, you can listen to our theme song. It's called Here We Go by Jinsang. You can find it on Spotify. It's very good. I suggest you listen to it early and often. Anyways, that's it everybody. Good night.