TRASHFUTURE - Wot Do U Call It? ft. Ash Sarkar

Episode Date: February 6, 2018

Riley (@raaleh), Hussein (@HKesvani), and Milo (@Milo_Edwards) calling from inside a car in Utah, sit down with Ash Sarkar (@AyoCaesar), senior editor at Novara and Wiley biographer to talk about the history of and political bent of Grime off the back of Ash's run in with Piers Morgan on Good Morning Britain. Then, in an uncharacteristic move, the second half explores some more sincere topics rather than piss stained irony, with Ash turning it around and asking us about being a Muslim on the left (well, mainly Hussein) and the broader political purpose of irony, and the role of persuasive language. It was a really interesting, and often reflexive conversation I enjoyed having. Anyway, follow us on Twitter - @trashfuturepod Thanks to Jinsang for our theme song, Herewego, available on Spotify If you want to bump Afrobashment like Ash, check out the link here to Yo Darlin by NSG feat. Geko: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YaLkgoWXrrQ xoxo Riley

Trapanning was actually fairly successful as a form of surgery. So, Trapanning where like they just drew the hole in your brain and you know it was actually quite good at doing things like relieving pressure or fluid on the problem was infection. So it wasn't the brain drilling that would kill you. It was the germs. That's true CEO mindset. We have Twitter for that. That's true CEO mindset, right? I imagine that's going to be like a 2018 trend. Oh, absolutely. Started by the teens. Drill a hole in your cerebellum and fill it with raw water. What we think is when we bring back Trapanning as a way to like, you know, have business intelligence, it's not going to be teens doing it like with

tide pods. It's going to be like the director of marketing at Uber or something who wants to like, you know, very naturally and traditionally get an edge on the competition. I mean, it's going to launch the career of teen YouTuber Trapanning. That was terrible. Miss. Correct. I really, I really hate I think I'm on like the wrong podcast because I actually have very little engagement or interest in technology. What I do have is a very healthy fear and respect for the supernatural. So really, if you want to talk about like the sense of futurism, I'm like, yeah, sure, but I'm first going to have to like consult the orgery like spooky Logan Paul holding a seance in the suicide. Ash has told me that as a Gemini man, I basically just will suck for my

entire life. I really cannot be fucked with Gemini's anymore. Like they really have an inflated sense of their own social capacity and elegance. Oh, God. Oh, my God. What about what about cancer? Oh, God. I mean, fine. We get it. You're a tough cookie. And I know that because you've been sobbing into your meal for the last 20 minutes telling us how resilient you are. She really knows that shit. Like just leave and like cry on the bus and reassess my life. I'm so sorry. It's fine. It's fine. I knew like at some point this was gonna happen. Anyway, I go to America for two weeks and the other trash boys are already being domed by a dominant woman. We're already being domed by Dominic Toretto from Fast and Furious. But hey, we all have our clothes on. So you were

also recently on an episode of Good Morning Britain. I was for my sins. I was brought on because there's this MP for Romford called Andrew Rosendell. And he comes out like every six months or so with just some completely intellectually impoverished poorly thought out policy like tattoo all babies with the Union Jack and MP. No, Tory MP who's just completely devoid of ideas who to thank it. And basically he's managed to hold onto Romford by being a far right candidate without making people vote for a far right party. Like that's who he is. So we debated each other roughly a year ago about the Union Jack and its

cultural meaning. And then I get a call from Good Morning Britain being like, Hey, do you want to come on? There's this MP who wants to force schools to make all the kids stand up once a week and sing the national anthem. And so I did the pre interview and I was like, well, look, it's not actually about the national anthem itself. I think this is a really dumb policy. This is the first education policy we've heard since Damien Hines came in in the in the cabinet reshuffle. And this guy I happened to know hasn't raised a question in Parliament on education since 2010. So he's a complete fucking joke. Anyway, so I get in there. And there's like, Susanna Reed, like, you know, blinking twice in the hope that someone will come to her rescue.

Like waving semaphore to hope that someone will blast through the window and I do actually think she's like D lower comrade. I've got no evidence for this, but I just I've got righteous vibes from her. And Piers Morgan, who's just like the angriest slab of ham, like on the Morrison's like daily counter. And then there's me and Andrew Rosendale. God, when he had that massive argument with Tommy Robinson, it was like alien versus predator. It's like, who am I, who am I rooting for here? Whoever wins, we lose. Also predator, like, that's not a question. Like, we're a pro predator podcast.

Like, that wasn't even a quite, you know, why would you ask something as dumb as that? Only in the alien verse. So we're a pro predator and peeing with your shirt pulled up above your nose, which is also the only way it's appropriate to sing the national anthem. Otherwise, it's it's zero respect. This is like the opposite of Babe station. Trash Future, the podcast that is the opposite of Babe station. Cool. Now. Okay, so you're in your in GMB, low key comrade, Susanna Reed is like, they turned to me with the

first question, which I thought was bizarre, because I was like, it's his fucking policy. And they're just like, Ash, why do you think the national anthem is dangerous? And I was like, well, I was like, I don't think it's dangerous. And so I was trying to make the point that Romford, which is his constituency has got the second worst educational performance in London, that this is a really bizarre set of political priorities, da, da, da, da, da. And then, you know, coked up walrus, Piers Morgan, like barrels in, when I've said like, this is an embarrassing policy is like, why is singing the national anthem embarrassing? And it just turned into like this eight minutes slanging match, or about four minutes in, I just got really bored.

And I was like, and they also tried to back me in a bit of a corner, they're like, do you have a problem with it? Because it's got a Christian God. And I'm like, you know, I mean, you can't tell this on a podcast, but I'm a brown woman. So I was like, okay, well, rather than like falling into that trap, I'm just going to be like, well, it's not like national anthem. Actually, it actually doesn't specify what denomination the God is. That's just assumed. It says God saved the Queen. But I mean, it could be like, you know, Thulu. She's the head of the Church of England fan. This is the thing about white people, man, is that they're really belligerent about their history, but they actually know shit all about it.

This is what the future is going to look like. We're going to upload our love ones on to like MacBooks, right? And then we're just going to be like, just don them. We're going to don them other national park program. You're, you were there sort of there. They say it's a Christian song. And I got, I got bored. And I was like, well, look, it's a bit shit. It doesn't even bang. And I would prefer why these were in my Rolex to be the national anthem. And no one can deny that it is a banger, that it is representative of a particular mood and moment in UK pop crime. And then it just kind of all went to shit. And then people started chatting to me about what do I think about the monarchy. And so I said that Princess Michael

of Kent could do one, which is weirdly something that I got away with. And Andrew Rosenthal turned to me and was like, is there any part of British tradition that you don't want to denigrate? And I was like, crisp sandwiches, because you don't find them in any other culture. And they're excellent. So I thought that that was kind of this morning's work done with. I went off to a meeting and next thing I know, like the Daily Mail have got ahold of it, like the sun are running with it. And like, you know, I was just like, did you get the Breitbart treatment as well? I didn't check, but maybe I don't know. There are just some corners in the internet that I don't look at. I don't look at the alt-right and I don't look at porn because I'm Muslim. So both of those

things. Ash, what I want to know is how will your career recover from being rubbish by incredibly reputable paper, the sun? My family was actually incredibly disappointed in me that it hadn't happened earlier. They were just really like, what kind of communists are you? A shit one, apparently. It's the whole, you know, it's the doctor thing. You come home with an A, there. Why wasn't an A plus? You get dragged in the sun. They were like, why have you been arrested? Yeah, they really are like, so what do you mean you've not like been incarcerated in H block? Like, what are you doing with your life? God. What was like the standard profile of the I was going to say, well, before we before we sort of carry on too much further without just

saying who we are and what we're doing. Oh, do we have? Okay, yeah, we do. We do kind of sort of have to a little bit. Right. I will take this this moment to from here in cell block H in the Muslim no go zone of Tower Hamlets. I will say welcome to trash future the podcast about how the future if we do not implement fully automated luxury gay space communism will be trash. I am joined by whom from my right. My name is Ashlaka. I'm senior editor at Navar media. I'm a lecturer in film graphics and propaganda at the Sandburg and politics at Angiorescan University. I'm also going to steal your man. It's your boy, the caliph of Roman road, Hussein Kisvani. I'm not allowed in airports or on planes. Not because of anything terrorist related, but just because I keep insisting

on bringing my whole anime collection on the plane. Hey, tired love love actually wired love Hina. It's a joke for like 2% of our audience and one of my co hosts so niche. Hey, welcome to trash. Welcome to trash future a podcast that I'm continually surprised has less errors and joining us from the ball from sunny America. Yeah, and it's and it's me. Milo Edwards. Milo Unopolis is I am the I'm the Voldemort to Milo Unopolis is gay fascist Harry Potter. I'm currently located in Utah, a state where the Mormons live who worship Cthulhu and drink beer, which has the strengths of the piss of a sort of not even very drunk Trump coming at us from the land of Evan McMullen, the man who will save the Republican Party of the United States is Milo Edwards.

And I am Riley. You can follow me on Twitter at Rala. I wouldn't recommend it. No, that's out of the way on the subject of Grime and hip hop. Did anyone see that tweet yesterday where some guy had like written an article for some American magazine being like hip hop is not even music. It's just noise. And then they found a picture of the author and he literally looked like William Gladstone is like this super old white dude with like massive white mutton time travel time travel here from the 19th century via the early 1990s to get that take. So that's like an old take of the old takes like right now guys in the mutton chops are like, Oh, well, it's not real rap like, you know, public enemy. Like that's what I thought old dudes were on like this is like crusades era.

That's vintage retro. Like it really is just quality, quality, antique take. But wearing my Rolex is officially a banger. I have spent a lot of time on rowing machines while it was playing and normal, normal urban person Riley Quinn spent a lot of time rowing to the song, wearing my Rolex. I'm sure I'm sure that's exactly what he had in mind. He was just like, this is the perfect like, you know, 140 bpm like tempo for rowing. Sure. That's what he was thinking. Really? The core audience of like modern grime music, I like students at Oxford on rowing teams, right? Oh, absolutely. Oh my God, it is now. It truly is now after a bashment drill. Yeah, it's 140 p.m. Time to listen to exactly one grime. So between sort of your your great

passions for astrology and communist literature, we also talk a great deal about grime. UK hip hop did exist before grime, right? And there are also artists like Reg Pre two who sit right on that boundary. But grime's origins are not New York. That is not the sound that is not the beats. Those are not the samples that are being used. It's jungle and it's raga and it's football chanting. And that's all kind of coming through like underground garage as the garage scene is kind of starting to break up a bit. So Wiley who so I signed an NDA and now I don't have to adhere by the NDA anymore because he kept tweeting about it like, you know, thanks, IOCs for writing my book. I go straight to his autobiography and it was just the most fun I've had in my life.

He came up through the jungle scene. And so that's why he's got that really distinctive like jungle inflicted flow. And then when he was making Nicole's groove, champagne dance with pay as you go, that was all kind of like, you know, underground garage. And then that develops into grime, which took from that underground garage scene, like that kind of like glitchiness, like really like frenetic, electronic angle and the emceeing culture is completely different from US emceeing culture. It's coming from really dancehall and raga, like, you know, testing on the mic. It's not wrapping like the way that, you know, the US had shaped it. This is why the guy with the mutton chops was so upset because he went to see the jungle scene

with his grandson and they didn't sing bare necessities once. It seems like grime has played kind of a big role politically in the last in Britain in the last. I mean, it's quite interesting, like the grime for Corbin phenomenon is interesting because it's not something that was sought out or deliberately nurtured by the Corbin team. And it's also not something that was necessarily that coordinated at first, although later on a kind of infrastructure developed. It was finally you had a candidate who was able to address the material needs, which affected predominantly black working class young people. And there was a tremendous kind of, you know, organic upswell in political engagement. And it was, for me, a turning point in how I viewed

politics because I'd made the classic error of thinking that alienation was apathy, whereas people weren't apathetic, they were just alienated from the politics of the day. And so when you look at, you know, the range of figures who came out, like, you know, it wasn't just the kind of like self appointed like custodians of the scene. It was also like up and coming new talent, AJ Tracy, novelist. You know, Jamie was probably the least surprising of the bunch who came out for Corbin. But it's, yeah, for me, it was like, it was a really interesting phenomenon, like culturally interesting moment. And also just sort of seeing Corbin's comms team being like, right, we've just got an endorsement from Stormzy. Like, what,

what do we do with this? Like, how do we, how do we message this? Like, you know, what, this is not what we thought. Like, this is not the target demographic we had in mind. But cool. You know, it's just like this gift that they didn't know what to do with. So what, what was it you think that has caused this musical movement to become sort of politicized to the left? It always was politicized to the left. So even before you had Grime for Corbin, you had outright and explicit criticism of successive Tory governments. I remember when Lethal Bizzle came out and called David Cameron a donor. That was a very big moment for me. Um, you know, Dizzy Rascal was going on with Paxo. And it's not about the music becoming

politicized because there's always been political, you know, people live politicized lives. It's finally you had a moment in mainstream politics, which was speaking to that experience. Like, for me, it's quite simple. And it sort of feels like it's the fear was the first time, like it was taken seriously by a mainstream, right? Because as Ash was saying, like, Grime or like, whatever you were like wanting to call it, like in the early and mid 2000s, it has like had a political slant and, you know, its origins come from like a specific place, which lend itself to a type of like progress, or, you know, type of like progressive politics. But in the past kind of couple of years, it feels as if like it's just been taken much more

seriously. And what I wanted to ask you as someone who doesn't really know a huge amount about, you know, the kind of internal workings of this, is this kind of why it's been taken so seriously at this moment? Like, is it because of like institutions kind of recognizing its monetary value? So I'm thinking about like Stormzy here and just like how he like really rose up in a very quick amount of time. Yeah, I mean, so one of the things that's interesting is that Stormzy is definitely the leading light of that second wave of Grime, because there were some real wilderness years. And what's interesting about that is Wiley was literally pumping his own money into the scene, buying people studio time during that time where Grime was no longer lucrative,

or the thing that people wanted to listen to, and people were talking about, you know, Grime instead. But it wasn't Stormzy or even Skepta who brought that energy back. It was Meridian Dan. Meridian Dan, who I think has like twice one best newcomer at the Robo, the only man who's, you know, he's the oldest fresh face on the block. And it was with German Whip. German Whip was, you know, the song, which suddenly was just everywhere, like, you know, one extra. I listened to that in Canada. Oh my God. I can't even imagine, like, I can't get my head around that. It's like so closely tied to a particular kind of like architecture. But yeah, Meridian Dan was, you know, the guy who brought it back. And, you know, immediately after that, you've got Jamie

coming out with his 2015 album, Integrity. And the whole point is that it's returning to Eski. It's going back to those, you know, 2003, 2004, 2005 glitchy beats. Like that's not me, it's basically Wiley's pies, just like, you know, reconfigured. So I think that there was an insistence on going back to the start and going back to a very self-reliant road ethos, which also was a way of containing money within the scene and putting money back into the scene. Because, you know, when Dizzy was making pop tunes and Wiley was making pop tunes, money was flooding in, but it didn't necessarily stay there. Smashmouth, if you're listening to this, pivot to the ground. It's the way forward.

But yeah, just like a culture of reinvestment and nurturing young talent. Because I was really thinking about like Chip, well his name's like Chip, right? But like back in like the early mids, he was like Chipmunk and how he really got fucked over by like record labels because he was like doing pop songs for a really long time. You've seen Dizzy. Yeah. And there was another one as well, which like I remember on the way here, but I can't, I don't know what the title is, but like, well, after he quit Alvin, the money just kind of dried up.

That's the single whitest thing I've heard all week. We're keeping it back in now. Yeah, we're keeping that. There was this guy I knew who, because I went to like a suburban grammar school in Kent. So, um... Where in Kent? Where in Kent? In Dartford. Do you know it?

I'm familiar with the concept. I have heard of the game of darts. I have driven a Ford. It's got a lovely tunnel. It's got a lovely bridge. And only, I'm assuming only like maybe 35% of his residents are like possibly members of like the English defense league. You know, don't, don't, you know, fact-check me on that. You know, and I remember this guy like said about his favorite rapper, was like the rapper from Lincoln Park.

He's just reminding me of like one of my life. I'm actually having trouble reacting to that. So that was like the extent of like, well, you know, people did listen, like there were some kids who like listened to crime when I was like, when I was over. They listened to like all the kind of old like boy better know stuff. Which is really cool. And they, there were a couple of other things too. Actually, do you want to know something really sick? Of course I do.

So, um... Make this show exciting, please. So, when Skepta started out, he was first a DJ and he didn't emcee until basically widely got him to emcee and Jamie was the first one to start emceeing. And for me, when Jamie and Skepta first started coming out, I was still at school. You know, I was like listening to Grime on the back of the bus, braces on, wondering why boys didn't like me. And then when Grime came to North London and it felt like, wow, it's now in North London.

That was like a really big fucking deal. Yeah. And the summer just gone like, and I just completely lost my shit. Like, got to meet Jamie Skepta and their sister Julie and also their parents. Yeah. Their dad is like this hardcore pan-Africanist, like super rad, politically astute, like, you know, so there's this whole kind of, I don't know, there's this like kind of, I don't know how you'd explain it, like this undercurrent of, you know, when we were talking

about like, you know, the politicization of Grime and I'm saying, well, there's something that's always been there, is that through the experience of migration and how stories are told, in a diaspora context, like across generations, there's something that's like intact, that is passed down. And I think that it was a real emphasis on like self-worth, on carrying yourself, being proud, standing tall, being able to adapt to your circumstances, but not be absorbed by them. And you can see that in Skepta, you can definitely see that in Jamie and Julie in three very different ways.

What's interesting about Wiley's like throughout the book, I wasn't asking him like, what do you think about politics? Because that's a really boring question. But automatically he was connecting his own experience, his sense of rootlessness to like black diaspora and forced displacement and, you know, economic dispossession and political disenfranchisement, you know, so that understanding and that black radical consciousness is something that's there, like in the art and it's really shaped how it's developed. I'm just, yeah, I get so excited by that. Because one thing I sort of seized on here is you sort of talk quite a bit about like

reinvestment, how sort of this sort of money sort of stays in these scenes or sort of a sense of mutuality. Do you think that that sort of, I guess that sense of connection with one another, you know, is kind of based on almost this sort of solidarity you seem to be describing? I'm not sure if I'd go as far as to say solidarity, there's certain affection, there's certainly affection, there's definitely loyalty, but there's still competition, there's still beef, there's still, you know, like p-money.rotten. Maybe the distinction would be, I suppose the distinction I'm trying to draw is between what you're describing, which is, which just feels sort of, even if I'm not saying it's

sort of always lovely all the time, I mean, you were telling us earlier about how on this very road, you know, Dizzy was stabbed. No, he wasn't stabbed in this road. No, he was stabbed in Anapa and came back to this road. Thank you. Thank you. But rather that it's, if nothing else, it seems like it's, it has sort of, it seems that certain elements of it have escaped the logic of kind of endless alienation. But you know what, I think what it is is more that everyone learnt Dizzy's lesson, which is you can't have a scene make you who you are, take the money and run, expect to come back and still be loved. And I think the turning point for him really was when he was stabbed in Anapa. And it's something which when you watch interviews with him with like DJ

Vlad or whatever, there's this cautiousness and this guardedness, which I don't think has ever left him. And, you know, people know him as the guy who was like, you know, the mini got a whiff of like Calvin Harris money, like, you know, took it with both hands and ran with it. And now when he's come back, and it doesn't matter that, you know, Rasket is a very, very good album, it's never going to have that same hold over people the way, you know, Boy in the Corner did, because, you know, really after maths and English, he booted, he didn't want to be part of this environment or architecture or scene anymore. And it's what's interesting is that he never, I mean, he went to Miami, he's now like based in Kent. And even though Wiley lives in...

I know, I know, I know where his house is like a proper like nice house in Chisellhurst, which is like one of the leafiest whitest areas. Are we are we about to straight up dox Dizzy on this? We're not going to dox him completely. Because he will still fuck you up. He boxes. Well, Hussein, Hussein watches anime and trains that way. I've spent a long time learning the blockchain. So come at me. There is actually like a secret grime history of Kent. Can you tell me more about that? So Wiley's uncle, Junior, who says mum's younger brother was murdered, not actually that far away from here in Bow. And that kind of precipitated a family breakdown. So Wiley and his sister, Jenea, who is just the most incredible woman I've met in my life, moved with their mum

to their nan's house in Jillingham. And he fucking hated it there. So this is all in the book. I'm not spinning. Don't blame him. He hated it there. He was just like, everyone's racist. It's slow. I just don't feel like I'm around my people. I miss my dad who's still in East London. And about that experience, he writes the song Nan, I am London. It's about this whole sense of displacement. But when he was living in Jillingham, one, he was just like, it was so fucked up, like even the other ethnic minorities there were racist. And I was like, what was going on? Yeah. Yeah. No, I'd still, that hasn't changed. And he liked it, placed on football for like Jillingham FC and felt furious that it wasn't as good as a London team. Yeah.

He's probably not got a list as a show, but I went to school with the son of the manager of Jillingham FC. So that's my crime connection. This is a business networking podcast. Well, look, I'm learning from the Jay Shetty mindset, which is don't sleep and connect with everyone, even if they ask, why are you in my house? Oh my God. Oh my God. Oh my God. You know what? I know his sister from school. There you go, Ash. You are now also connected. You've got a bright future. And we also, we always used to, because, you know, surname Shetty, we used to be like, go and then go and then draw for the Shetty, make your belly look like a bowl of spaghetti, like at her. And he went to school next door,

if I recall correctly. Well, isn't that a weird coincidence? If anyone else wants to join the track future leadership scheme, please DM me. Oh my God. I am so happy. No, well he, everyone in North London knows each other, right? So he was also the only person who liked my joke tweet about going to learn like business mindset from Jay Shetty, because I found this building called media monks and took a picture of it, which just shows what he uses his like important business time to do. It's like a kind of like the offspring of like Narendra Modi's it. Do you know what I mean? Like super neoliberal, like super turbocharged neoliberalism, like also kind of combined with like Hindutva. It's politically interesting if also a bit frightening.

I mean, I mean, Harro is like really hot for Modi, right? He's like, he's like, he's from Harro, but like he leaves like live there for a bit. They're like, they're really hot for me. Last, last time I went, they were like posters and shit of him, like on the high street, because I'm an idiot and American and, you know, you're American, you're Canadian, Canadian. I forget sometimes even he admits that there's no fucking difference. Yeah, I'm a Canadian as well that we both have Canadian passports. Sorry. So I sort of I show my own ass sort of on my on my sort of ignorance of the subject, despite interest. And as it seems as though it's just it's I never really grasped kind of just

how different it was grime versus American hip hop. It's beyond stylistic choices. I mean, for me, the key difference here is that you're looking at two different histories of coloniality, right? So hip hop is the result of an internally colonized black population, which has been there from America's very conception as, you know, a nation state or a set of states. Whereas grime, you are locating it in a post Windrush story of migration and you hear that in the music. I was chatting to a friend of mine, Kojo Karam, amazing academic based at University of Essex. And one of the things we were talking about is that it occupies a very subversive relationship to Englishness. And I think that's partly because of its birthplace in East London,

which is like so English, so cockney, like, you know, to be truly in London, you have to be born within hearing distance of Bose bells. Well, so was grime. And it's always had that kind of, you know, use of cockney rhyming slang, football chanting, stuff like that. It's always inflected it. And when you look at this new generation, which is contained within grime as a scene, but not the stylistic requirements of grime as a genre, Afro-bashman, I think that's really interesting in terms of telling the story of not just black anymore, but, you know, black, North African, Asian being in this country is that it's almost like what Glissant says in Poetics of Relation of culture that is formed at the periphery at the margins. And you have this

wonderful hybrid Afro-bashman, which is this, you know, melding of two musical traditions, right? Afro-beat and bashman. And I'm really interested to see where it goes from there. And I think that's the difference between grime the first time around, grime the second time around. It's grime the second time around is a cradle for multiple genres. It truly is a scene and a culture industry in its own right now. And thinking about what the third wave might look like, like who knows, but it's going to be really fucking exciting. Any recommendations for a song to put on the outro? At the moment, I keep bumping NSG, Yo, darling.

Okay. Well, we will be right back with you for the second half in just a moment. So are we allowed to do that? Destination is the closest place we can buy that drink. J.D. is the whole share, but it's inclusive. Now I'm picturing the craziest thing. I'm coming saying you say no. My shit rise up, I face my belly button. We're going to get transformers for Corbin. I've only seen the ones with Shia LaBeouf in them. Because of my role, I will watch any film with Shia LaBeouf. I've been saying his name wrong all this time. How have you been saying that? Shia LaBeouf. That's the conspiracy right there. That could be out because it's like a Hebrew name.

But the thing is, I've actually noticed in a lot of his interviews that he changes the pronunciation. And I don't know whether he does it on purpose. I want to ask this because there's like two Muslims on the left and you're the other one. J.D. I'm sure there's a few more, but let's just say for argument's sake. C.D. For the sake of humor. Do you find it difficult when you come up against like fucking, you know, and they always quote the same line from Marx and it's a misprevention of what Marx meant anyway, is explaining the confluence between faith and politics or do you just say that I can't be fucked with this? J.D. To be honest, I haven't really heard it. I haven't really kind of been

confronted with it in any sort of significant way. And partially that's because I think my activity in leftist politics kind of is this show, which as you know from being here for about an hour, it's really just about body fluids. C.D. I mean, ideologically, it's a complete wasteland. J.D. Yeah. Yeah, like it has no value whatsoever. Hey, investors, if you'll listen. C.D. Much like your Bitcoin world soon. J.D. I mean, it's really just woke bourgeois decadence. C.D. I think I come from this weird space where like I'm part of a immigrant community that sort of did like quite well. So like the Gujarati, like Indian community who are famously like

famously targets for like Tory politics. J.D. But also famously Islamophobic. C.D. Yeah. Yeah. And like also coming from like a back, like a Shia background as well. Like you can really, you really see that sort of weaponized, right? So you really see the anti-Sunni stuff weaponized. And what I'm really fascinated by and like part of like what my book is really looking at is how like class sort of changes the way that you see your religious identity as well. J.D. You know, so coming from like, you know, bourgeois here communities and like, well, in my case, like South London, but the majority of them live in North London,

you know, a lot of the kind of anti-Sunni stuff is also can also be projected as being like, you know, attacks on kind of poor Bengalis living in like East London, or more often than not like Pakistanis, right? So like this is the line that you hear like more often than like I would like to hear it is that, oh, you know, these Pakistanis are the ones like are giving Muslims bad names, right? They're the ones who are going to go join ISIS and everything. We're the good guys because like we protect Christians and, you know, all that stuff like that stuff has actually been said in the mosque that like my family attend. So I feel like that's the more problematic element of kind of my religious

identity when in its confluence of politics. But I understand that that's like a very minor like I don't think it's minor at all. I think like, sorry, just this is the smartest our show has ever been. I mean, I guess I'm interested in asking these questions because I'm navigating these spaces and trying to think about how I make this this particular subject position legible to other people and to get people to engage with this political content and not just sort of read or project political political content onto it. So, you know, my family is Bengali and we're kind of from like this triangle, including like Chittagong, Dhaka and Kolkata. Yeah. And, you know, everyone's kind of partitioned up and then came here and all the rest of it. What's really striking

is like that, you know, very real antagonism between Bengal and Pakistan. Yeah, there was a whole big brouhaha in 1971, not sure if you've heard about it, is how quickly homogenized we are in this country, not because of any sense of political ideological affinity, but purely because of class status and kind of, you know, temporal confluence in terms of waves of migration. And one of the things that I find really unsettling is how uncritical people are when engaging with that class content, right? So they look at working class Pakistanis and Bangladeshis in particular and go, oh, you're just backwards. Yeah, yeah. And that's also inflected by Islamophobia. It's also inflected by like a particular kind of like imperialist feminism. Yeah. I find it just like such a complete

frat to even begin to unpack. Yeah, I mean, it's, you know, I find it difficult like trying to unpack this and like trying to like make it coherent for what is largely going to be like, you know, a white, you know, middle like upper middle class like audience. But I think one of the things that you were kind of saying that I sort of picked up on a lot is how those like internalized, like those demeaning terms that like can become really internalized. So like the terms like backwards, how that actually affects like migrant communities through a class structure, I think is like really fascinating. Because then like even, you know, again, so back in my case, like, you know, you know, my Muslim kind of family will use the term backward to differentiate

themselves from like the other ones, right? The other ones being very universal. So I was like, oh, you know, because we, you know, we don't wear headscarfs and stuff. So we're kind of progressive and we're open. And it's like, no, you guys have like, have like the same sort of problematic and it's even internal, right? So like, you know, you just want to hide it in like suburban houses and stuff, especially like my family from like Dhaka and Kolkata, they're like, oh, well, you know, we're not Siletti. And like they're all the, you know, it's these kind of quite, they might seem to an external gaze, like niche antagonisms, but they're not. It's like encoding like class, like sometimes caste and also ethnic, ethno linguistic conflicts as well.

And it's just impossible to speak with that level of specificity sometimes and you want, you wonder how to do it or if it's possible to do it. There's a lot of like background, a lot of like the unpacking that as you mentioned, like needs to be done before you can even have those conversations. And like, I guess in like general Marxist theory, but like just general, like leftist discourse, I find that like faith in general is not really talked about a huge amount. So like even or it's disparaging. Yeah. And because like, we have the absence of conversation, like even the first principles are absent. So like, how do you take a conversation? But it's really, really complicated that encompasses everything from like class

consciousness to intersectionality to like, you know, discourses around sexuality. So like, how do you begin that if you don't even know where your origin point is? I mean, I did this interview with Nick Cohen this week about friend of the show. Oh my God. Like, you know, Islam, progressive politics, feminism, the left because Nick Cohen unfollowed me on Twitter. I just want to like make before we continue, like he, he was following me for ages. And then he unfollowed me and I only found out two weeks going. I'm really mad. Bitch.

Nick Cohen, I challenge you to a duel. That's loyalty. But the duels we engage in on trash feature are all like Yu-Gi-Oh. So I did this interview in some ways that was, it was exactly what I expected it would be, because he's making this documentary and it's kind of consolidating his two favorite things, which is hating on Islam and hating on Corbin. Oh, really? So what he's trying to do is argue that liberal Muslims feel betrayed by Corbin because I didn't really understand. And so I was like, I don't think that's the case. Like, I think that,

you know, most Muslims in this country feel that like, you know, his critical stance on foreign policy really speaks to them. And then I realized that he kept including me in this like bracket of liberal Muslim, like, you know, liberal Muslim, liberal, because you don't wear a hijab. And then I had to be like, bro, you know, I'm not a liberal. I'm a fucking communist. You know, just he went slack, Jordan. He was like, but how can you be a communist and a Muslim at the same time? Doesn't Marx say religion is the opiate of the people? And I was like, okay, now I'm in a weird position where you who have abandoned the left and all premise, like all illusions of Marxist analysis, now quoting Marx back at me. It's bizarre.

It's also like such a dumb kind of like thing that you kind of say in your GCSE year when you like read Christopher Hitchens once. And also they think that opiate of the people just means like it's a narcotic of the people. No, it's a painkiller. That's the fucking point. Yeah, comfort. That's why he used the word opiate. And I was going to say that like that sort of feeds into so you did this thread was it this week about the Darren Osborne case and how like Islamophobia and anti Corbyn sentiment are like sort of hand in hand. And no one's really and I thought it was a really, really good thread because it was something that I'd been thinking about for a while and I wasn't necessarily sure how to articulate it.

So I mean, Aaron Kanani is excellent on this in the Muslims are coming, which is which as a book to understand Islamophobia is the one which I keep returning to. And what it's looking at is Islamophobia as a way of containing dissent. So you don't have to be Muslim to be racialized as Muslim and therefore subject to a certain form of state violence. The example I always use is Jean Charles de Menezes, right? He was murdered because he looked Muslim enough. And that's it. And when you come to, you know, the role of in particular, the prevent agenda in terms of policing dissent around foreign policy, even policing the study of security studies, if you're Muslim. And that goes very, you know, quite neatly with this

wider project to discredit left politics, whether those politics are a leftist critique of political economy or a leftist critique of foreign policy. So you have this kind of, you know, triangle going on where Corbyn represents two of those nodes. And the third one is just the very presence of Muslims within his constituency. Finsbury Park Mosque, which was, which as long as I've known it has been demonized as being particularly illiberal. And these three things work together perfectly and had a murderous outcome. You see all that stuff in the spectator, like during the Corbyn run, but also just like the early years when I guess they were sort of convinced that Corbyn was going to like be pushed out

by Liz Kendall in a tank. I remember all that. Four percent of the vote. Oh my God. Those are the good days. Well, the right thing. Well, it's speaking of the spectator. There's one actually, because I sort of remember from this. Because you have a subscription. Yeah, of course. I love the spectator because every time Brendan O'Neill writes not in spiked, I need to catch his pieces in the spectator. We get this narrative also where sort of after Darren Osborne, the far right papers all say, we have no idea how this happened.

And it's like, well, I've got a hypothesis, but also they do something that's very, very snaky. And this is the one I got slated by the Daily Mail recently. And this also happened to like three of my best friends this week as well. Like, you know, pretty gang is the squad that just keeps pissing off the Daily Mail, like rep hard is that they republish a ton of the racist tweets that you get. Like approvingly as, you know, they've got enough plausible deniability of like, well, we're covering the controversy, but they're republishing all those tweets being like, you know, go home, you'd like those he can't, you know.

The weird thing is that those are some of the least racist things in that edition of the Daily Mail. I mean, they often they decide like people on Twitter were outraged by Ash Saka's statements on why this so-called grime music should replace our national anthem. Various men's who avatars are sort of like white pointy sheet hats, which I can only assume means that they're druids. You know, in, in like American far right stuff, like all the like racist avis or anime, but in the British far right space, like they're all like really weird things, or even like dogs, or they're like bits of tablecloth. They're also sort of 50 year old.

Haram though. Just Haram. Yes. Well, announcing themselves on one side of the godly divide. I remember like this one guy, like he, he was outraged by this piece. I wrote for Vice about all the shit you have to deal with as a Muslim during Christmas. And it was all just like really dumb stuff. It was just like, you know, your idiot, like religious cousin. And I remember this guy, I just every time he tweeted, I just responded by telling him, I found a picture of him online and just putting in a picture of Dan Ninen. Oh, no, there was this other guy. There was this other guy who like, and his avi was like,

of a Gammon Ham. It's like racists have started embodying the impression that we do have them behind their backs. It's like, yeah, you know, you just give them so, you know, it's like, they're not even trying to like not be owned. Like, you know, it's, it's, they're, they're bane it, right? It's like, it's like, I was born as a half. Only Milo gets to that impression. So, but okay, but then like, so I was born in the racism. Not should buy it. Literally, literally, yes, though. I was just like, yeah, as a critique of like, you know, Britishness, you are correct. But I mean, I don't know, I don't know. Maybe this is where I would say then think about like,

well, what is the political efficacy of irony? Because I'm, this is something which I kind of come back to, which is the performance of antagonism, right? On Twitter. So it's like, oh, they're not even trying not to be owned. But it's like, okay, well, I'm my, you know, dunk on a racist five times a day. But as the government recommends, as the government recommends, as Mufti Mank would recommend. Mufti Mank famously did say the dunk on, yeah. No, I've lost it. Sorry. You used up all your brain on that, like again, very uncharacteristically clever conversation. 2.5% of your income must go on dunking on racist. I can't remember which pillar that is, but it's definitely one of them. And one of the things is that does this,

is this politically effective? Or is it even emotionally effective, right? As a form of catharsis? Or is this a way of evading a more concrete antagonism? Yeah, I mean, I've been, I've been thinking about this a bit. Because as, as we said, like off stuff, like just a year ago, like, I think my posts were like sort of sincere in terms of like, whenever something racist would happen, then like, you'd want to like fight back and you'd want to, you know, I wouldn't necessarily like, let's say explain to the racist, but to kind of try to rubbish their ideas. And I always would have found it like quite exhausting in the end, right? And it felt as if it was like going nowhere. So for me, like, as on a personal level, like, dumb ironic jokes about body fluids,

it's not only a way to kind of like stop people from kind of feeling powerful, like, oh, they've got, you know, they've really got under your skin and so on. But that's what like a lot of these like fucking Gammon Hammer avis like one, right? They want to get under your skin. They want to make you really angry. And on the other hand, like, and we've kind of sort of done this before, you know, with like the trash future pylons and stuff, not a sex move. I wouldn't even know where to begin. It's specifically not it's a not sex move. It's a move to keep yourself from having sex. We're an anti sex podcast. Good. So I normally like just talk about the grindry.

But we, you know, on, you know, whenever you've got like some guy who's trying to like, you know, get under your skin and what you end up doing is like showing them for like how like ridiculous they are. So like this week, we had a guy who like got mad at something we said about Churchill. And then he ended up going on this massive rant about like computers and like the in like the birth of the internet and stuff like it was this really bizarre rant, which has showed him up to be like ridiculous. Being mad online is the opiate of the masses. So like on a very personal level, I feel that it works. But then I don't know like how that affects like overall discourse, how that affects like resistance, especially because so much resistance and so much of like

engaging in like the so-called culture wars happens on social media platforms. I mean, I've been thinking a lot about this. I'm so sorry. I realize that sincerity isn't the brand here, but I'm a very deeply sincere person. And so I just can't escape. You're making the show better. Don't worry. I'm really, really. Our last show was like all about piss. So I'm so the one that we did with MAG Maggie. Yeah. It was like 80% of that was piss. I'm so uncomfortable about having to have a physical form. So if we can just avoid that. We can all be like Milo and just be in the bowl. I'm like, that's so great. That's like really speaking to this, you know, deeply neurotic and

repressed none that lives inside of me. It's like, you know, techno none. But like, I've been thinking a lot about this. And I really do agree with you that like that sincere engagement is so exhausting. And, you know, Bell Hooks talks about racism as being this, you know, there's always one more thing. They say you've got no history. So you spend 20 years showing that you do. And then it's another thing. That's another thing, which like, you just say, okay, racism primarily in many ways operates through just longing you out, just like, yeah, being like longers. And then there's, well, how do you build resistance? And, you know, talking about like cultural wars, playing out online. And this is something which I think

those of us on the left do have to take responsibility for is that we're very good at creating moments and flashpoints with terrible at building movements. And I wonder if that's because there's an instantaneous gratification to these conflicts, and then they melt away, right? You're not generally having a constructive set of antagonisms with the same person, which both of you grow. Neither are you building a community which you are seeing around you in your neighborhood or yours, you know, you're seeing in your workplace. I think that speaks to not just technology, the role of technology, the atomizing effects of technology. I think it speaks to, I mean, we were talking about this, I think, before we went live,

something about the postmodern condition, where we believe that naming anything is possible, all manner of conversation is possible. But this course, as the shaper of our realities, we do not believe, we do not believe it's possible to politically change the conditions that we inhabit. Yeah. But this is this is something we talked about earlier that you mentioned was sort of off the back of some research at the NEF, correct? I'd love to sort of go into this a little more. Cool. So this is the steer into the sincerity. So it was a report called Framing the Economy. It was conducted over two years by the New Economics Foundation, and it was conducted in one, two, three, four primary stages. And basically it was trying to get to grips with

how do people understand the economy? And how do they feel about the economy? And rather than trying to, you know, normally bits of research try and draw out antagonisms and difference, it was trying to draw out what some common threads were. So through two hours of interview with 40 participants initially, they drew out some common threads, which is that people think the economy is rigged, it's unequal, but they're fatalistic, it can't change. They think about the economy as like a container, right? So as boundaries are fixed, things go out, things go at the bottom, people are, you know, takers or their, you know, givers. So there's a kind of like underlying fascism almost to it, like, you know, producers and eaters. And they have a sense of, you know, it's being

controlled by someone and it's almost like an Illuminati sense of conspiracy. And when, but also there's this cognitive black hole, right, where people are just like, well, how does the economy work? And it's like, and then they would maybe extrapolate from a couple of phrases that felt familiar. And then it was focus grouped and, you know, it was talked about in more depth. And then through this research, they tried to come up with, well, what are two framings that can help people change their minds and feel a sense of control over what they're talking about? And there were two main narratives that they found effective. One was people versus the elites and the metaphor that really works in stock with people, even though I think it's a terrible

fucking metaphor, but it just worked was the idea of a computer program. So the economy has been programmed one way, it can be reprogrammed another way. And so what you're saying is that when this is the kind of metaphor that could, that allows people to understand the economy and could potentially change their minds. Yes. And it would change their minds about how it could work. Cause it was like, well, you know, one group of people have got the passwords and we're locked out of it, but that can change. So it insists. Wait, so everyone is a gamer? Essentially. In late capitalism, we are all gamers. And then the second framing was ready player one. We're gonna have to review that. Yeah. What is, what was the second way? The second framing is

the meeting our needs narratives that the economy is no longer meeting our needs the way it ought to be. And the metaphor that people really liked that was train tracks, right? But laying down train tracks and it gets you somewhere and that destination can be shared or it needs to be more pluralistic or whatever. So what was interesting about this, and you know, Neff is essentially a liberal organization. So when it talks about these things, they are also to a certain extent presented as a non ideological or a political, which is kind of strange when you're thinking explicitly about politics and ideology. But I thought, you know, when we're having these conversations about engagement, when we're thinking about emotional work, when we're

thinking about how do you achieve change through trying to construct a sense of social majority. I came out of this meeting, you know, I'd missed watching Spurs Wallop Man United to be at this like, you know, research feedback. And I was like, wow, hang on, it is possible. We can message in a way that's ultimately productive. And, you know, we can think about conversations as something which we build on, it's not just like a moment of conflict. And then you move on. Well, this is, I think also goes back to something you were saying earlier about sort of questioning the value of, if you like, dunking on fascists, which is very fun. But when I think this, I think sort of taking taking these two things together, I think gives a sense, or at least of what I consider to be

sort of a valuable way of communicating, which is that you have to understand that the fascists, as you say, will always have the one more thing. So they're going to not be easy to convince, but you can excite people by and you can you can excite people by giving them these these notions of the of the computer program and the train track. And you can also even use the kind of you can't convince the fascists, but you can beat them at you. You can use you can use this kind of shared almost like this shared fun language that you get through sort of fun irony posting and dunking on fascist and stupid podcasts like this to kind of create almost a sense of I think it's a sense of fun, almost like a fun groupness. And then I think group identity is really important, like,

you know, beefo, right, beefo and all of his works on like, you know, kind of Italian autonomism is using words like fun is using ones like desire is, you know, intensely playful and is put in his political articulations, which you wouldn't guess from how I'm describing it. But you know, he's got a tremendous sense of fun. And I do think that that kind of energy needs to come back. But I think one of the things that's worth pointing out is a culture wall can only benefit the right. And that's what they want, because they have lost what was once a solid ideological heart of conservatism, that's completely had the soul and the energy ripped out of it. We've won every economic argument. The only hope that they've got now is opening up

a cultural front to play on deeply embedded senses of, you know, racial superiority of nationalism, white agreement, these battles which don't have an end, because actually there isn't end in sight for neoliberalism. Well, that's why I think we sort of anytime you you end up sort of interacting with these people online, and you sort of point out that they've said something racist, they say, oh, you're just shouting me down as racist because you disagree with what I say isn't whiteness and agreement synonymous. I think isn't the issue more like whiteness being repackaged. So like, in the sense of like all the arguments and all the principles and stuff are still there. And I don't think it's really ever going to go away. Like the things that we hear about, you know,

you know, whites being the most persecuted people in like London and like, you know, all this like, all this like propaganda bush. I mean, as hard as we try, we've still not gone that far. I'm still I'm still able to walk through the caliphate of Tower Hamlets freely for now. You haven't left. Bear in mind that like the Gucci gang is out there. There's no one left in this office. And you're currently outnumbered, mate. Oh, shit. But no, like the things that I the things that I sort of worry about when it comes to building like a movement like this is the fact that like whiteness to a certain extent has been like sort of repackaged for an audience who may not necessarily like have gravitated to like the old arguments. But if you look at like,

you know, YouTube shows, for example, by I don't know what they're called, but like, I guess the one that we've spoken about on the show is like Dave Rubin, right? And the Rubin report and how he's quite shamelessly brought in people who have like, literally quite as Edward Eugenics isn't bad. And actually they have brought back scientific racism. Yeah. Yeah. And like, you know, he's got all the aesthetics of like a like a downtown LA studio and like, you know, he's a former Hollywood guy. So like, he knows how to play this game. Gavin McKinnis is a former vice guy. Like it's all there's there's a sense of hipsterism and turning towards Gavin like Gavin McKinnis, finally a high profile phrenologist. I mean,

I mean, Gavin McKinnis, I don't really see I don't I don't see Gavin as like a huge threat in the sense of like, he's just in my opinion, like he's too stupid to really like, he's too, he's too like cuffed up to like think strategically. I've been on that level of wave too. But like people like Dave Rubin, like for all their like idiotic, like lack of intellect, sort of know how to package things like that. So the point where like, you'll have people who kind of had the same sort of agreements as like many on the left in terms of like, you know, inequality and not being able to kind of like afford houses or being able to like afford families and stuff. And I feel like the choices that they can make, it's very it's much easier from like gravitate to the right. And we've

thought we've spoken about this on previous shows, like the whole Jordan Peterson thing, right? Like he's written a book which basically like says nothing, but it's really easy to kind of gravitate to that rather than kind of real material solutions. But that's why I've changed tack in in particular in the last year in terms of how I talk about racism. Because before I was coming from this kind of you know, decolonize everything and go and I still deeply hold to that critique. But in terms of political utility, yeah, I've changed how I frame things because that's culture war. I know is the only thing they've got left. And now when I talk about racism, yeah, I don't talk about feelings. I don't talk about dispositions. I don't talk about sentiments. I don't talk about even

unconscious bias. Would you call yourself the Ben Shapiro of the left? I don't know who that is. I love having someone who like on this show, whose brain isn't like complete completely much. Your brain is so good. There's just so much of it. Can we like mold it? Can I measure your skull before you like all of our brains have been totally broken by the internet. But so we know you're not doing you're not you've abandoned the old strategies. What's the new one? The inside of my head is like a vodka watermelon. What I try and do is talk about money. I talk about employment. I talk about average household assets. I talk about wage gaps. And then what I do is I say your agreements about what you think the problem of racist discourse is isn't a problem of anti-racism.

It's a problem of state sponsored multiculturalism, post SCARM and report, which said that the only justice could be representative rather than redistributive justice. That's something which fucked the anti-racist movement in this country. It fucked Black and Asian trade union organizing. And it also fucked not the white working class, which isn't actually a distinct demographic, but white working class people over because then it meant that multiculturalism in which class is just a set of accents, habits, signifiers of authenticity rather than material conditions is that it fucks white working class people because they could only articulate a need for justice through the lens of state sponsored multiculturalism. That's my tactic. Well, I think this is where

we kind of get back to the Jay Shetty thing and the sort of the role. We always L roads lead to Jay Shetty because he got up at 4am and built them himself. You can see that you can see that at that attitude being carried out and out of how he talks because he is the ultimate sort of is the ultimate sort of multi argument for the multicultural representation as justice, which is which is it's all you. It's all about you. You have you have no excuses. Wake up early and work very hard and you could be a success guy on Twitter who actually did a really good thread about this. So he he grew up in like Newham and he went to a school in like, you know, one of the poorer districts of East London. And he was kind of saying that like every few months

the school would like wheeling like some kind of like entrepreneur guy to like give inspirational talks and like how this is becoming like this really widespread thing in a lot of kind of, you know, inner city schools, right? Because you've got young people who are really into, you know, I guess it's like, you know, YouTube, Instagram. It's you could just call it like formless, directionless, contentless success. And they all like sort of say the same thing, which is like, oh, if you just like, you know, buckle down, don't go, you know, don't go out clubbing, don't go out like drinking with your mates. Focus all your energies into suing the NHS. You know, then you can like then you too can

like start your own like businesses and stuff like that. And you can like make the material, you know, you can kind of make it so your mom doesn't have to like work in the hospital, like they tap into very real things, but their solutions are very like limp and they're very, I guess, superficial and they feed into like, I think Jay Shetty like packages it really well like the migrant work ethic is completely determinist within the logic of neoliberalism. Shayne is a dying ideology lads, but you know, I'm the best way out of poverty is to make fun and vibrant shirts are perfect for the boardroom or the yacht. Do you know? Do you know who why? Do you know who why a cake is

the coke? The coke brothers, billionaire, son, large son, who took his billions to make a gaudy shirt company, but that like it's just the shirts literally has money bags for drawings of money. But there's shirts for fat guys. You know what? I mean, I'm not sure if the podcast is the best place for this. I am looking for a rich, stupid man with low self esteem. I'm sure we could. I'm sure we have one. DM me boo. Jay Shetty, if you listen, I think he might be. Yeah, he does. He does slide away. Like if his family are very Hindu. Ah, yeah, shit. I'm the other one. Shit. Yeah.

Wouldn't work. Well, according to Darren, I was born. It's no different. Yeah. What do you what do you think about the whole? So I've sort of been thinking about this as well, like how my migrant communities like the ones in like East like the ones who like in a city, East London, who could really like who on the, you know, some of them really rallied behind Corbin and they really rallied behind the Corbin message and like all the stuff that came out of it. But there's also like a really kind of sizable number of them kind of buying into the whole like neoliberal inspiration bullshit. And I sort of wonder like because it's a very different dynamic from like, you know, I guess like white university students who

like sell 50 and then go join like, you know, PricewaterhouseCoopers. I mean, you know, because class exists, brown and bougie exists. I don't think that there's necessarily it's necessarily that deep, right? You've got one party that serves the interest of capital. You had one party which was serving the interest of capital and is now trying to do something different. And that takes time to message effectively. And you have one party, which may be crumbling, but does stand for your right to have platonic and possibly more deep relationships of gorillas. Oh yeah, yeah, that that is UKIP. UKIP counsellor in Glasgow said she wanted to fuck a gorilla

run by Hussain's brother, Raheem Kassam. You know what? I really wanted him to run again. I really, really wanted him to run again. He's, I mean, he's a fun boy. I was doing this guy thing with Andre Walker. He worked for Whitebar and you know, he's really just like, he's the guy who got the sword and was like, challenging ISIS to fight him on the morning bridge. It was, it was really like, I mean, oh, that was so good. The fact he's still got a column for like the New York observer. I'm just like, how bitch? How? Well, it's that he's, he's the, he's the opposite end of that guy who tried to, of the guy from Saviltown, who was arrested for trying to bring a sword onto a plane. Oh my

God. But he was like, the reason why I had to, he was like, oh, the reason why I had to leave Brightbar was Raheem Kassam. And I was like, oh, so there weren't any problems with Brightbar before the Brown guy moved in. Interesting. Like the far right all fucking hate each other. It just happens they hate us more. Yeah. For now. For now. For now. I feel like they hate, they hate, they hate us more, but they can inflict more damage on their own. And they're so like, sort of like psychopathic that like they would rather do that. That day, weirdly, Stephen Wolfe, the MEP got sparked out by what's the name? Mike Hooker. What a day. Wait, he got, he got knocked out. What? I didn't hear the story. What? Oh my God. So it was at the European

Parliament in Brussels. There was some kind of brew. I kind of remember what it was, but that was just this beautiful picture of a UKIP MEP Stephen Wolfe splayed out like a starfish who had been recently born. This whole king, belligerent ham of white guy standing over him who turns out his name is Mike Hooker. He knocked him out, spark out. But I'd like when I was doing the sky thing, like Stephen Wolfe came in and Andrew Walker was there and they were just, they've got no sense of like what you do or don't say in front of a left-wing journalist. So it was just all coming out. Andrew Walker, like going on about Rahim Qassam, how much everyone hates him, the fact that Nigel Farage had called for a second referendum specifically because he'd lost the

backing of Steve Bannon. He thought they was no longer relevant. Now he wasn't Mr. Brexit. So that was like a real story. He just makes microwave meals. All I'm saying is that like once again, Rahim Qassam wears boot cut jeans. You know who else wears boot cut jeans? John McDonald's tour, otherwise this she, this he son. I've seen it happen because I look straight like, soon as I saw the picture, I was like, he's tall and he's brown. Let me just check. Is he a snack? And then I looked down and I was like, no. Is he a snack but just needs like fashion, fashion, like advice? I'm not looking for a project. Okay.

All right. So if you are a billionaire fail son who is seems as large as a truck and you're a billionaire despite your fat guy shirt company, DMS will set you up with Ash. And you would want a girl to call you out. I just thought I could make you very unhappy one day. It's what all the right wing chants really want, right? They're all expecting like a wife that they're going to hate. So hell yeah. Let's just let's let's let's get that's add a little more of an anarchist flavor to that particular particular union. We're launching a matchmaking service now. Yeah. The trash future dating service where if you are, yeah, if you are a weird doughy fail son who wants to be

domed from the left, then send us a DM and we will set you up with the woman of your nightmare. You don't even have to send a pic. Just screenshot of your bank balance. Match future where we rebrand redistributive taxation. You know what? I always wanted to get into it, except I'm just really bad at like sex talks. So I didn't think it would really work. I don't really understand how things. Also, it's like massively prohibited on this show. So yeah, no, no. So there's another one to get into like fin doming, but I just, I don't know how and I think I lack the kind of nomenclature to do. I mean, a lot of people do it on like Amazon wish list, don't they?

I mean, I would say I think we've been, we've been, you know, we haven't been mean to Wyatt Coke in a while. I think this is a good intro into fin doming. Also, we've just had 40 minutes of extremely reasonable and very like articulate content that wasn't very broken brand. Right. So I've got something dumb to say. Talking about people, talking about people who are really bad at sex talk, it reminded me of Tiger Woods. Remember when Tiger Woods got in trouble for having all those affairs and then they released all of those sets that Tiger Woods was sending to whatever that woman was called. And no one really bothered to read them. But if you do, they're like amazing because they're just like really, really weird. And there's

those like Tiger Woods texts here saying like, yeah, I want to do a sex with you. Oh my God. You know what? The best. I had Tinder for like five minutes. Because I didn't really know how dating works. And I was like, oh my God, I should get to this. How many matches did you get in five minutes? This face. I mean, not that you can see on a podcast. This voice, not that you can hear on Tinder. I went on like one day and it lasted 20 minutes because I really hate dates. So I just left. I was just like a fake to phone call and left couldn't deal with it. And then it was just me and my best mate in his gaff drinking up. He shared like the nicest rum. And so I gave my friend my phone and he just like swiped right on everyone. And then we developed what turned out to be the

ultimate Tinder filter question. Yeah, which is Mandela or Mugabe. Oh, sure. That is the filter question. And I've now like I've deleted Tinder, but I've transferred this filter question into real life, which is the minute I hold a man's gaze for more than say two and a half seconds, just lean in. And very seriously looking deep into his eyes, you go Mandela or Mugabe. And this, my friends, is why musty Manx said, lower your gaze. Right. So the right answer is, of course, both. So if you want to come on, if you want to come on the show, we now have a competition send us your answer Mandela or Mugabe. We could just set it up as a Twitter quiz. Yeah, let's set it up as a Twitter quiz. Sounds like a game show that could be hosted by Keith.

Shall we? Shall we put the mics down and go about our normal lives? I'm fucking starving. Yeah, you're never getting out of there. Oh, shit. Can I have a last meal? No. So you see there's like a camera, right? Go in front of it. Um, there's some Arabic words, but I put some like English. Is this completely an octopus Arabic phrase just to face east? She after us, fine. All right. How much of the Hushada can you remember? I actually do know what to say on the show. On behalf of all of us here at Trash Future, like I'm so long goodbye from me and all my wives in the Mormon waste of the Utah desert.