Triforce! - Triforce! #115: No Heaven For Old Men

Episode Date: February 19, 2020

Triforce! Episode 115! We're finding our perfect heaven in today's Triforce! Support your favourite podcast on Patreon: https://bit.ly/2SMnzk6 Music courtesy of Epidemic Sound. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Please play responsibly. Hello, everybody, and welcome back to the most offensive podcast on the planet. Very polarizing. Very polarizing. Where three idiots talk about stuff they don't know about, speculate wildly, don't take positions and flip-flop either side of the line. Yeah, just based on very much no knowledge on any of the topics discussed so if you're looking if you if you were looking for a podcast where three people who don't know what they're talking about try to talk about stuff you found it we're we're over 100 episodes in

so yeah yeah yeah so something's working so strap on and strap in and we're enjoying it enjoy the ride you know just yeah enjoy it by all means just imagine you've gone for some kind of uh family dinner and you have three uncles that's myself sips and lewis yeah and they sit at one end of the table and the other people in the family say don't don't listen to any of the crap they come up with honestly yes you can have a laugh and listen in and everything but don't believe a word they say. They're idiots. That's us. We're the three uncles at the end of the table that nobody really wants to talk to.

No. We're so loud and obnoxious and we're fucking talking over everybody that they just end up having to do it and they just give up. They give up. They let it wash over them like a tide of shit from one of Sips' favorite things,

the giant London sewage pipe. A shit tsunami, yeah. A shit nami. So what have you guys done this week? Wait a second. Poo nami. Yeah. P tsunami, yeah. A shit nami. So what have you guys done this week? Wait a second. Poonami. Yeah. Poonami.

Poonami. Yeah, that just came to me. That's a different thing. That's poonani. Poonani. Yeah, it's close. What did I do this week? Listen, I got one for you guys.

I've been thinking about this one. Right. You've died, okay? You're overweight overweight a little bit overweight okay turns out maybe you didn't lead the best life that you could have right you you thought you were but you weren't okay you just didn't so you you you wake up and you find yourself in a corridor not an overly tight corridor but it's a court you are overweight it's a little tight because I'm overweight so yeah um you, you turn around and there is a wall.

So there's only one way for you to go. And that's to follow the corridor. Okay. It's just like an industrial kind of like awfully lit corridor. It's not creepy in any way or anything. It's just it's just it is what it is. It's a corridor. You're walking down it because you have no other choice.

You can either just stand there and do nothing or start walking. So you start walking. And as you start walking, you notice that the walls are starting to close in a little bit, right? So the corridor is narrowing, right? Okay. But you can smell fresh air, like a hint of fresh air. And you can kind of hear nice sounds in the distance, like some birds chirping and just, it sounds nice, right? You keep walking, you keep walking, the corridor narrows

and narrows and narrows and narrows and narrows and narrows. And at this point, you can actually see, you're like, oh shit, there is an end to the corridor. There's something out there. It's not giving you much, but you can see that it's like beautifully outside. You know, there's like some trees and you can hear nature and you can hear some people laughing in the distance, probably having a picnic or something. You get to the edge of the corridor and it's too narrow for you to squeeze through, right? And you're stuck there forever just looking at what could have been like if only i'd lived a better life and wasn't so overweight i could squeeze myself through that little gap but you

could just run up and down the corridor and lose weight paradise no no you can't because you're it it doesn't work like there's no weight loss in the afterlife or so because i'm slightly overweight in your personal god is gonna punish me forever yes Yes. Or the afterlife is going to like. Well, and probably other stuff too. Probably other stuff too. But you've done. But it just so happens that it feels like you're being punished for being overweight. Okay. But that's just part of it.

That's just a small part of it. Is there any follow up or is this just. No, that's it. That's the rest of your eternity. Just like, oh shit, I wish I could fit through this gap. Which circle of hell is this that we're trapped in here? I'd say it's a pretty mild one like uh it's rectangle of all of all the possible hells you could be stuck in it's an annoying one for sure you know it's probably you're not in agonizing

pain but it's mental but your mental pain is like you're filled with anguish the whole time do you feel like hungry and thirsty after a while those things don't really matter i mean maybe actually maybe let's back down the corridor maybe just to spite just that wall there's the wall that Do you feel like hungry and thirsty after a while? Nah, those things don't really matter. I mean, maybe actually. What's back down the corridor? Maybe just that wall. The wall that was behind you when you spawned in. So you're trapped in there. That would be terrible.

Yeah. For potentially trillions of years or whatever. Yeah. These have been my shower thoughts most of the week. I spend a lot of time, I don't know if it's getting older, but I spend a lot of time thinking about hell. And I read a book a good few years ago now called inferno right about a guy who's a sci-fi writer and he dies at a party and wakes up and he's in um i think i mean he followed the dante

it's dante's inferno description of what hell is like right he wrote this story you know as if he'd been there sort of thing and you start off in a little sort of urn and until, you know, you're stuck in there until for some thousands of years or, you know, the time isn't really a thing in hell. That's like the whole point is that you can't count the days or the minutes. It's just endless, interminable, like a bus ride where you don't really know where you're meant to get off. you're just going through industrial estates right i think we can all relate to that you're just thinking yeah when is this miserable ride going to end there's nothing to look at there's no one to talk to i don't i didn't bring anything with me to do i'm just stuck here and i don't know when we're going to get where we're going that's time you know you're just basically stuck there

so you're in this urn and eventually he cries out, God help me. And the urn breaks open. He's in this giant field surrounded by urns. It's just like a sandy desert and all these other urns there. And he just starts walking and he's walking towards stuff and it's not getting any closer. And eventually this guy comes over to chat to him and he sort of tries to tell him, look, you're in hell. And he's like, don't't be ridiculous i must be in some i must have had my brain frozen and i've woken up in the future and this is some weird alien theme park like he's trying to figure it out because he's an atheist he's trying to figure out in his mind this can't be real yeah and it's his adventures in hell if you like right um and it's good i recommend it's very old-fashioned it's very 70s sci-fi

oh i like that yeah yeah but it's uh it's got some silly stuff like he bumps into quite a few famous people there's no billy the kid it bumps into him and there's all kinds of weird rules that scare me about hell because um in this version anyway in order to get from this field of urns or whatever you'd call it to the judgment area you have to cross the river sticks right and you have to pay the toll to the guy uh the what's the name of the boatman anyone remember is it charon it could be charon and you give him the coin and he takes you over if you fall in the water or jump in the water you're stuck there forever there's no chance of redemption right i was like well that fucking sucks i mean

nobody knows the rules which kind of sucks but as he goes into hell all the people getting punished in different ways um and the main reason they're being punished is because they're they haven't changed as people no so if they're they're they're still doing the same bad stuff so he sees these these two groups of people well he sees these two groups of people who are pushing a boulder and one team is trying to push it up the other team's hill, and the other team is trying to push it up the other team's hill, and they're sort of doing battle over this stupid boulder, and it's never going anywhere. Because, of course, in this version of hell,

if you die or are injured, a little while later you'll be healed, so that you can't just kill yourself and get out of it that way. You can't take injury and you don't age, so you're just stuck forever. And even though you can suffer horrible injuries and pain, you'll heal again. I actually stole it for the Bodega book as I did everything. But it's sort of I just thought it was a really interesting idea because it's important that in hell there is no escape. Right. There's no time. There's no escape.

Your body is not it can be horribly deconstructed, but it'll automatically reconstruct itself so you can be tortured again. So he sees these two groups of people fighting and he's like, why are you doing this? And they're just like, we've got to. Those bastards over there are trying to push it up our hill. And it's like they're stuck there torturing themselves with something that they have brought with them. Right. It's not a punishment that they can't escape from. All they have to do.

So what are they, just competitive dad? No, yeah. They're like these kind of competitive assholes that never give up and nobody beats me. They can't see past the competition. They can't see the bigger picture sort of thing. Their ego won't let them or whatever. Right.

Is there an equal hill across the road where there's the lazy people? Do you know what I mean? And they're just sitting on their boulders forever, like smoking weed. And they're doomed to do that because they can't be arsed to push the boulder and they're never going to change

there's honestly if you read the book it's not a very big tome I think it's out of print I bought it in a second hand book honestly like these things you can be done for anything like you can be done

for being like paying too much attention to your dick and not paying enough attention to your dick but that's the point is that he finds all these people

one of them is this old lady who was his neighbor who was a sweet old lady but she was a bit of a gossip and she's got this hideous punishment she has to like carry this super heated piece of metal that covers her it's like a cage that she's stuck in and everything and he's like this is so out of line with what she did like this punishment is so awful and what she did was just not that bad how can this be and he comes to realize that in fact they're all they could all just escape these horrible punishments if they work together or if they would listen or if they would change a little bit right um which i thought was interesting so the whole point of it was to make you face what it is about you that was bad and by doing that to to beat it um but he actually... You'd think that would happen pretty fast.

People would learn pretty fast. You would think because you're there for thousands and thousands of years. I think it's like... I'm learning in an afternoon. Like, yeah, all right, maybe I shouldn't be gossiping. All right, I'm going to definitely... This burning cage is pretty awful. Yeah, but I don't think people realize

because I don't think people... There's people out there, lots of people out there who don't have any insight into what they're doing and how it could be wrong they just assume that what they're doing is is right sort of thing and that will never be able to to accept any like any blame or or any responsibility for like for for you know potentially inflicting misery upon another person sort of thing you know what i mean it's like it's like it's like it's it's sort of like really basic human nature isn't it's why people can do horrible things to each other you're right and like some and where's the line and where's who's the moral where's the book that explains what you should

and shouldn't do i like that that's interesting You smiled at a gay man that million years in hell. It's like, what? Yes, it says that in the Bible that you shouldn't be nice to gays. You should tag them. It's like, okay. Well, sorry. Yeah.

Whoops. Guess I'm going to hell then. Do you know what I mean? Who's the authority of this shit? And it's so out of date so quickly. Well, who's the authority is God, obviously, I think. But I don't think if there is a hell um i don't think it would be judged in quite that way i i really don't know because it would be too arbitrary and it doesn't it wouldn't

make sense it's it's so it's so it's so flaky of and loose like what's scary is that we just don't know and and even uh and if you if you try and follow these 2000 year old texts, you know, all you're going to do is scare yourself. Silly. I'm assuming you're doing everything wrong. I don't know. It's all bollocks.

I'm not scared of a fucking book, you pussy. It takes more to scare me. It's weird, isn't it? It's really, it's really interesting to think about because there's so many depictions of hell and you see it in like loads of movies

loads of movies depict it differently i like i like the concept though and i like um it's a very interesting thought i really like what flax is saying about the uh the old old lady who's whose only crime is being a gossip which in itself is is is kind of shitty right you don't really want to be gossiping too much because it can be harmful you know it can't it can ruin people's lives or but the alternative is keeping secrets no yeah but i love the uh i love that she's got like this fucking hideous like cage made of lava that she's stuck in that she could get out of but she can't figure out how like i i would totally watch a tv show series she's whispering through the bars oh did you hear about sharon she's got a new handbag i saw her queued up for food stamps last week

it's gucci can you believe that how could she exactly gucci do you know what i mean it's like shut up woman if you just stop gossiping get this cage off you get back in your lava cage all right so here's here's the one of the sillier parts in the book is that he meets this guy early on his sort of guide benny who seems to have some kind of powers if you like like he's he's he understands hell better than than alan who's the alan carpentia who is the main guy. And he seems to know how to get around certain things and everything. And later on in the story, Benny falls into this pit with all these really bad people.

And I think Alan has to rescue him somehow. I can't remember the details. Is there no lifeguard for this in hell? There's a lot of tumbling into things. I feel like you shouldn't be just... I mean, first of all, health and safety is... It feels like that should be in the Bible for a start.

Or Hell and safety, I guess. Oh! But do you know what I mean? Like, you can't have someone who's done, like, you know, you can't have, like, someone who's done something really small, like, I don't know, accidentally...

That was my point. Someone is a gossip. Accidentally spilled, like spilled a coffee on someone but didn't need to do it deliberately. They trip over a straight urn and fall in the river Styx. That's it. That's your ass forever.

You can't... You can't just put clumsy people in hell. You know? It's not... You know? They're not... It's not fair. It's filled with Mr. Magoos.

Oh, shit. Whoops. But get this. It gets a little silly. So Benny, his guide, turns out to be Benito Mussolini. Oh, nice. He reveals that he's Benito Mussolini all this time. Oh, this is my friend Addy. Addy Hitley.

Nice moustache. This is Pol Pot. He's a nice guy. A little clumsy. No masking of the name if you like i introduce you to stalin yeah this is stalin but we got a little gang going here you know don't worry yeah but i just thought it was uh it was funny so at the end they have to climb up this big statue of the devil and at the top it turns into heaven but you've got to climb up it

and they get there and Alan realizes that Benito has been here before because he's like, you've been here before and you didn't go up. And he's like, well, yeah, but you know, I had to come back and help other people. Like it's not fair for me to just fucking leg it. And Alan realizes that that's his redemption is that Alan turns around and goes back to help other people get out. And that that in a way, even though it's going to be more suffering, he knows the escape now. He's going to bring other people there.

I thought it was actually a really interesting story. Yeah. I like that idea that that, in a way, is how you've earned it, is by saying, no, I could have redemption right now, but actually I don't deserve it yet. I'm going to go back and help some other people so what you're saying is that they're deliberately not putting any kind of systems in place in hell to redeem anyone they just want other people who are who are trying to redeem themselves to help other people redeem joe it's like it's like someone automating a system like steam or whatever

it's like valve have like three employees like three employees. And all the rest is just everyone else does it themselves. They're relying on the community. The user base and the game devs and the reviewing system and everything like that is all done by them. We make a lot of rules for hell, right?

There's never rules for heaven because I don't think that the way that we talk about hell and what types of hell there are and stuff like that would means that like heaven would be different to what we think right like it would have to be what's your ideal heaven your ideal heaven is you um having a fun time sinning pretty much right and i think that goes for most people. And obviously that can't be.

So like, say, say we're talking about hell and say hell is just like, my idea of heaven is it's really hot. You know, no, no, no,

but like, maybe like there's a barbecue going on. Yeah, no, but the thing is, you know, I want to be slaying pussy and snorting coke 24 seven. This is it.

But there's like a rock music going on humans can't exist in heaven because they just don't have the capacity to we are describing hell yeah are there other people there i don't think there can be okay so so then equally you can't live with them and you can't live without them like we're social creatures i can't live without people in the same way hell is like an eternity of like anguish or something like how i was talking about that corridor and that's you for eternity right you're just like fuck i can't get through this ah you know you're just like frustrated you're filled with anguish there's there's no getting better there's no way around it that's that's it right that's it so heaven has

to be the same thing it has to be like think of something think of something nice like you're laying on a on a on a beach okay boring i can't do that forever but you but you have no concept of anything else so it's just nice you're just relaxed forever you know what i mean right but i'll get bored you wouldn't though you wouldn't have the same mind you have now because if you have the same mind that you have now you can't be in heaven because you want to do things that aren't heavenly but then de facto that's not heaven no but i mean like that's being seen hell we accept that hell should be some sort of like punishment where like you you have like some anguish so you'd have to have your mind right because you'd have to be able to to say fuck this sucks you know what

i mean but in heaven i'm lying around in a kind of blissed out non-thinking yeah unconscious you're you're just like on drugs forever that sounds terrible but that's how it would have to be no i disagree you couldn't have a you couldn't have a place where you could just like fuck bitches all the time and do drugs and stuff like that. Because it's all sinful. You can't sin in heaven. Right, but the point is I just spent my whole life not sinning. You got to let me sin. But having a really relaxing, torture-free eternity is the payoff, right?

But it means nothing. Okay, well, I would rather be bored. I'd rather be bored laying on a beach and be relaxed than fucking stuck in some anguishing hell. But that's the point, is that you have to have something to compare it to. Otherwise, it's not heaven.

We learned this from the Matrix people and entire crops were lost. I know, but... Do you not remember? But the thing is, though, I don't think a heaven exists that would be ideal for you, Flax though I don't think a heaven exists that would be ideal for you Flax I don't think I don't think it can exist I think it can it absolutely can

exist right so what so so so describe me a heaven I'll tell you what it is a legit heaven that has no no sin or anything in it all right I'll tell you what that you would enjoy for the rest they just put you back again it's just earth again right but this time everything works out for you right so you you see the same shit everything like that but everything seems to work out for you end up fucking jeff bezos jeff bezos reincarnation here he's already died in some previous life this is jeff bezos 2.0 maybe 12.0 i don't know right and if you if you have a lousy life you come back as another person and have a shit time and one of those people that just nothing goes right for them right you know

what i mean you had a good life you come back as another person and everything works out but even people like that can can can find happiness though like it's not it's it's not that black and white right like some people have really miserable lives but the happiest people but they go on to to carve out happiness within that somehow right but then that's that's an aspect where you're in the middle that's a new one they've spent they've lived their the best life right because that's a new soul figured it out so we got some new souls and so on because obviously there have to be more souls now because there are more people right well maybe i don't know i mean so there are more people isn't it

that there are more people alive today they didn't have ever lived or some shit like that yeah so there must be new souls coming along so that's their first run the middling ones the only concept that we have on the population of this planet is based on where we're at right now we don't know it's been around a long time i mean there could have been like other races that have just been you know don't you think there'd be some evidence well look at like well look at look at dinosaurs and that's like. We know about them. I know but I'm saying like what about way before them like there could have been anything.

We know about that. We have fossils. Maybe not. The earth could have been much more different. No. Yeah it could have been made up of like jelly men. Yeah. That have all dissolved and all the evidence is gone. You don't know. Or ghosts. Oh my goodness. Ghosts, P-Flex. No, honestly, like, so you guys are right.

Like the idea, the traditional idea. No, no, no. We are not right. Sips is definitively wrong. He's claiming that before the dinosaurs, there were some other jelly people. I'm not saying that there was. I'm saying that there could have been. You don't know for sure.

Hey, that's a very scientific outlook. We just don't know, P-Flex. You're telling me that before, like, we've got the very earliest a lot of the very very early life forms we have fossil records for that you're saying that before that an entire race lived evolved was on the earth in its very early stages it's possible we haven't even been to the bottom of the ocean yet. Who knows what's down there? Sand. Yeah, only James Cameron went down there. Sand and dead fish.

Right, okay. Well, I'm just saying anything is possible. I don't think you can discount it. You never know. Maybe in 100 years you'll look back on this because you'll be a head in a jar or something on a spaceship. You'll be like, holy fuck, Sips was right. Not on your bloody spaceship. I wish i had

expanded my mind a little bit instead of being so fucking sure of myself this whole time because 100 years on look at this guy was actually this is a really interesting thing the classic idea of hell is this kind of fiery pit of physical torture instead it's this podcast is very like it's very dated in the idea that it's supposed to whip people into line and get them to believe in God and be good and virtuous, or else it's a punishment. It's a very naive, low-level, something you'd have for a five-year-old. You know, eat your dinner, or you're going to have to go to the room

and get slapped. Yeah, you might get a smack. Behave yourself before you get a smack. It's weird, right? I like thinking about it, because there's a lot to think about, but I'm not, I wouldn't like, it's not something I'm interested in like practicing or reading any facts about. We just like to think about it, right? It's just an interesting thing. It's like a mental like puzzle or something, you know, like I just like to sort of think about it.

I don't know. But I do understand what you're saying about you couldn't have heaven because sinning is fun. Yeah. And sinning by definition could not exist in heaven but i i think the whole idea is that you get to heaven you get a free pass i mean you know what i mean it's like it's like you've got the ticket at the theme park that lets you skip all the queues god's like do you know what you've had a great life you've done really well fuck as many prostitutes and snort as much yeah go what yeah i'm gonna look the other way but but here's the thing.

All of that stuff doesn't make any sense, right? None of it does because people are dynamically changing and constantly evolving. Unless you somehow, when you die, you're locked in a specific sense of mind. For example,

even with physical torture, if you're being flame grilled on a fucking barbecue on a spit roast every day and rotated around like a roast pig like after a few days your brain is going to have adapted to that and you know and even if you're continually healed or through magic or some bullshit you know it's stupid the point is that there's there's other tortures that are necessary i used to think mental torture

but also the same thing with heaven like you know you do smoke and blow and cook as one day you're not going to want to do that

every day forever you're going to want to mix it up and so you know that's the thing like it's got to be it's got to be

constantly dynamically changing and someone has to craft that or it just comes out of control because you would then start

if you start sinning and doing coke and stuff and then heroin and you get addicted to it what is it some special heroin that you don't get addicted to yeah you don't get addicted to it doesn't give you any poisoning or anything like nothing i mean here you go like it's all but yeah who's establishing these rules and how are they fucking yeah but who's because he's god i know it's stupid i can't just say that though listen i i i thought at one point I was like,

you know what would be really cool? A really cool heaven would be you live like a decent life and you have lots of happy memories or whatever. You arrive in heaven and it's just like a control room where you have like your brain has been modified so that you can like very quickly identify a point in time and travel back to it and relive like a happy time, right? Yeah.

So I would like to be able to explore the universe. a point in time and travel back to it and relive like a happy time right yeah so like so i'd like to be i would like to be able to explore the universe you could just randomly go back and just be like oh fuck i really want to just have dinner with like my small kids and my and my wife again or something a happy memory right yeah well i want to go and i would love to if i could like go throughout human history sure and watch some of the battles in the Punic Wars or go and see the dinosaurs or travel to a distant planet where there's also life. Actually, that would be so fucking miserable and you would just feel like shit all the time. Why? Because you're traveling in the past in places that you can't make any changes.

There's nothing for you to progress. There's no way for you to change. How about you can make changes? How about there is things you should progress?'s no way you can make changes as a person you can't make changes in history we're just allowing anything though so you go back to these times and you relive these memories but that's all they are they're just memories and and you get nothing from them except for misery right because you're just like oh fuck as much as i enjoyed that i missed that and at the time i didn't fully appreciate it

yeah but and now here i am again filled with sorrow and sadness because now you're describing hell this is hell yeah exactly exactly but you're gonna see them again in heaven yeah but you might not though it depends on what that's very sad yeah i know so maybe maybe you can uh go into hell and pull them out like uh like benito mussolini did it right yeah in the book inferno send me in boss i like thinking about it but every time i think about it i realize how uh improbable the whole thing has to be like it's impossible because i don't think that anybody can can be truly happy in in any capacity other than in the exact moment they're in, right? Like that's the only way to be happy.

That's a beautiful sense. Every minute to just think, what am I doing right now? Am I happy doing this? I'm happy, right? You can't like retrospectively be like, I was happy because you don't know for sure, right? Or I will be happy when I lose weight. Or you can't be like, I'll be happy when I lose weight. And you can't look to the future and be like, I'll be happy because I'll have X amount of money or whatever.

Because that's the thing. You take yourself with you everywhere, right? If you're a miserable person, you will just be miserable. It doesn't matter what happens, right? Like it doesn't matter what happened in the past. Well, maybe it does a little bit matter what happened in the past. It doesn't matter what will happen in the future. Everything good could happen to you in the future,

but you're a fucking total wet ass. You know, you're just like- A wet ass. You're just like just a fucking streak of piss, right? I do think one thing was funny is you said that you'd be watching, like if I said you could travel to any period in time and watch it,

you were like, yeah, but you wouldn't be able to change anything. That's television, isn't it? Like you just watch stuff happening. Yeah, kind of. It's interesting. But like if that was your whole existence all of a sudden. No, no, it's just one aspect of it.

It would be interesting for a while and then you'd just be like, fuck me. I mean, think about this. Can you imagine if you could travel to an alien world and watch their civilization develop? Watch their TV shows. How fucked up is their Game of Thrones going to be? Oh, fuck, it would be so tedious though.

Alien Game of Thrones. It'd be great. It would be so fucking tedious. Like'd be great. It would be so fucking tedious. It would suck. It would be fascinating. I think you two have to understand that you're confused about, you're arguing about something that isn't going to ever exist. Have you ever watched...

Have you watched... Have you watched... All right, Mr. Fun. On one hand, you're saying that you can do anything, but it would be bad. Let's argue about Lewis's sex life now on the topic of... It's like I could do something that's... I'm in heaven.

I could do something incredibly bullshit, supernatural, magical, but it would suck. No, it would, though. Realistically, everything would... It's just a funny conversation. It would suck after a while. We're just having a chat. Have you seen The Good Place the TV show no I haven't seen it

it's good it's about it's the idea is that you know that these people are sent to heaven but it's not their heaven really

and it doesn't feel like heaven to them you know it's clever yeah you should watch it it's funny and it's good and it plays with that heaven hell

kind of concept you know there's this idea that they're in the good place and it's got jamila jamilan and she is fine oh my gosh well there you go it's fine glowing accolade for that holy crap there you go so one thing i i saw this week um on twitter was this this post that was going around and it was basically this thing about aphantasia um which is that way you can't imagine things when you close your eyes you got no mind's eye is that

right yeah it's where you can't visualize um images or is it the apple holy crap that would suck was it the the think of an apple it's a curse and a blessing at the same time really yeah uh being the opposite of that well it's something i'd sort of never heard of really and it was something that we've never really even acknowledged you know when when we were kids or when we're at school people are like oh yeah this guy's dyslexic or you know this guy's autistic or this guy's you know but aphantasia is this thing where you you don't have um it's not like you don't have an imagination necessarily but it's like you don't you can't visualize images and you know i think it is this for a second you know i was like because the way the sort of the scale was presented was it was presented as like you can visualize a

beautiful red crisp vivid apple okay so if i were to tell you like can you imagine an apple in your mind right now what does that look like and it sort of had this scale and it was like the next one was a little bit kind of fuzzy the next one was like black and white the next one was like kind of just a blur it was like looking at graphics through the ages i would say yeah and and and talking to certain people about it afterwards and reading some stuff about it it feels like it's something to do it's it's not people aren't always the same on the scale but it doesn't actually matter you can improve on the scale but some people obviously don't have a mind's eye and that is a sort of a thing with their brain um but it's not sort of it's not necessarily like crippling what does it do to

them like what what what are they not as good at imagination stuff or like like you remember that test you do in maths where you had to transpose shapes it's like if i flip this triangle through 80 degrees which of these would it most resemble you know and you have to sort of you know which shape fits into this is that the kind of thing they can't do or is that because that's visual on a page that's no problem but if they had to imagine something are they like the worst inventors ever because they can't imagine stuff how does it manifest itself i'm not sure like i i'm not sure if it's if it's like one of those things which actually helps you in some ways or you know in some things and hurts you in others you know but and it doesn't seem to be that big of a deal um but it wasn't it was strange because neil gaiman um who's the famous, you know, writer and guy who mostly, honestly, Neil Gaiman.

I used to really enjoy his writing, but it's sort of recently sort of become a bit more. Oh, I went outside into my garden and at the bottom was the fairy cottage. And I spoke to the fairy queen and she told me to go climb the beanstalk into the wizard's tower. Oh man, my daughter would love all that. All that. wizard's tower. Oh man, my daughter would love all that. All that. She's four. I couldn't, honestly, recently, he's written a lot of amazing stuff.

Anyway, he responded with a tweet, oh, the apple I imagine isn't just a red apple, it's a coveted Jew on a tree and you can see the sunrise and all this stuff, right? And someone responded to him saying, we get it, Neil, you have like an amazing imagination, you know, and he sort of responded saying, Oh, I didn't realize anyone didn't. I thought everyone was number one like me, you know, I thought we were just gonna post, you know, what we imagine without our imagination, but

a lot of people have trouble apparently, seeing things in their mind's eye, or when they close their eyes or when their eyes are open. And was wondering if if what what for for you to what it was like because for me um it's not easy to imagine things in my mind and i certainly can't it certainly doesn't seem to me to be a vivid or like like real seeing it certainly is is is blurrier um so for example test i can like one of the tests that it sort of says is imagine someone that you know okay um not well that maybe you haven't or quite well but maybe you haven't seen them for a little while so maybe like if we imagine each other can you see my face like floating in your mind's eye as i'm talking i don't see it floating i can see you like within the context of like a situation though like like if in my mind I can like picture you like, you know, at a restaurant or something like that, you know, looking deep into my own eyes.

It's not like I close my eye and your face is floating in my vision. No. It's like I know it's in there. It's not like my lovely horse from Father Ted. Exactly. Yeah. my lovely horse from father ted exactly yeah it's more like you know when you're daydreaming and your your eyes almost stop seeing the world yeah you stare through the world sort of yeah and the world is kind of gone and your eyes are just like ignoring what they're seeing and instead it's

almost like a dream yeah in the daytime i guess they could call it a daydream yeah it's sort of it's just like float it's almost like you're seeing it and dreaming. And I can, I can picture stuff like that. So when I'm, when I'm trying to picture something in my mind, my, my, if I can do it, if I'm in the mood to do it, my, I'll kind of go blank and I'll just go away and I'll just sort of be, it's almost like a lucid dream. Yeah. So, so pick, so, so, so picture me in your mind. Yeah. Put your clothes on, put your clothes on. If you want me to picture your head floating around, I can do that as well.

Okay, your head is now floating around in my mind. I can see it. Okay, so do I have a body? Can you picture my body as well? Yeah, a little skinny body. If you want a body, I can add one to you. Sure. Can you make me walk around and stuff?

You're wearing a blue jumper. You're moonwalking now in place for me. Yeah, I can see you moonwalking too. Good job. Oh my God. Okay, can you like pick out the details on like the clothes I'm wearing and stuff? You got white shoes on.

Yeah, you got those white sneakers on. You got black pair of jeans. And like a red woolly sweater. I'll go for blue. I had blue, but red could work too. What's the expression on my face? Goofy grin. Yeah, you just look just like normal.

Like no expression for me really so is this something that you have seen before or like is it like is it like a photo now i'm now you're doing the russian dance for me you know the one does it look like a memory or like a computer generated image of me or something you just conjure it up it's like i'm imagining it's a mix of things that i've seen before but all i've done is I've transplanted your face onto it. So is this very, very vivid to you? It's like a complex mix of imagery that I have seen before. It's not like a photo.

It's not like a photo. You know in a dream when if you're focusing on one thing in the dream, your mind fills in the background. Nobody's just floating in darkness unless that's the dream your mind fills in the background nobody's just floating in darkness unless that's the dream but like if i'm imagining someone in a room i have a sense of the place that they are but i couldn't peer at the detail without that becoming the dream do you always it's like having a very narrow lens when you picture somebody in a room is it always like a very similar room like my go-to room is like like uh like a grandma's nursing home room for some reason. It's weird, isn't it?

No, I tend to think of a place that I associate them with. So when I pictured Lewis- It's just like a bit beige with some floral accents. But I can change the room. Right. But like my default, like if somebody says, I'm in a room, I'm just like, oh. That's your starter level. That's my starter level.

That's my first room. Yeah, every time. I tend to picture people in places that I either last associate them with. So I pictured a friend of mine who I hadn't seen in a few years, but the last time I saw him, we went to the pub near me. And so when I was picturing him, when you said picture a person that you haven't seen in a while, I thought of him. I remembered us in the pub garden and drink a pint and have a laugh. Yeah. And then when you said Lewis, I was picturing him in the Oxcast office with all this bookshelf behind him with all the miniatures and stuff

that was the background yeah but it wasn't it wasn't like a vague understanding of that background i knew what it was but i wasn't picking out every miniature in that fucking another place that i like to imagine people in is the is the queen vic pub in east for some reason no i'm being deadly serious like it just i like the i like the aesthetic of it yeah it's just like time for laughing now son i can smell that place you know every time i see it i can like smell it it's weird it's just like it just seems so familiar somehow but like not even no not really just something about the interest the look of it yeah so that's the other thing isn't it that you can smell and hear and sort of taste things like imagine if you imagine like right now a

lovely soft piece of bread you know can you like taste that a little bit i can smell it yeah i can taste it as well yeah i have a very very very bad sense of smell uh most flowers i can't smell them like mrs f will be like smell this flower and it's like so when i find a flower that i can actually smell i'm like huffing it like crazy oh man it's it's amazing but it's yeah it's for whatever reason my sense of smell is very bad always has been i think mine's average i wouldn't say that i'm like sensitive as humans we don't use our sense of smell that much do we really apart from the smell of puke will make me puke like i can't i i hate this i hate puke smell even and and strong shit as well will make me but it is designed to yeah i know the smell of puke is designed to make you puke because it is but it's if someone else has puked the whole point of a

tribe is that they'll save the tribe leave them for the wall no because if they've eaten something which is making them sick you you should also be sick. Well, some people are really sensitive to certain smells. Like I know those ones are like the typical ones. Yeah, yeah. But like some people, it's almost like they have an allergy to a smell or something, right? They're like overly sensitive to it. And some people are like that with certain lighting, like lights.

And some people like they can't stand the feel of cotton wool like yeah that kind of stuff yeah it's weird yeah it's strange i don't know where all that comes from but yeah i mean so so this a fantasy thing i just may be interested i think the reality is that people are on different sides of the scale um definitely and it is something that you shouldn't be worried about if it's harder for you to visualize things and certainly well because i was concerned about because I find it much harder to visualize things or to manipulate images in my mind and some people just it's very easy it's very real it's very vivid well most people I think actually and so apparently you can improve it by practice and it doesn't impact your life too much but But if you can't see anything, so there was this guy, Ed,

who was the head of Pixar, Ed Catmull. And he was doing some Tibetan meditation or whatever, which part of that is a visualization. And he was told as part of the practice to picture a sphere floating in front of him. And he just couldn't do it for like a week. And so he found out that lots of people were able to form mental images so strong

they could open their eyes and the image would still be there, so they could practically draw around the thing that they could see in front of them. But other people couldn't see anything at all. And in fact, unusually, quite a lot of very famous animators and artists, like the guy who created the little mermaid originally right hasn't has a fantasia lots of people do all right um so from hand-drawn to digital um and it and it's and it's apparently not like even like a problem like do you suppose

that the desire from a young age especially because most people that are brilliant like a drawing or painting always draw and i wonder if part of it is a desire to picture things even subconsciously the rest of us can picture stuff in our mind and that's fair enough they want to draw stuff down because that's the only way oh my gosh maybe maybe so martin mentioned that he was martin littlewood said he was like a five on the scale or whatever, like a sort of whatever it is, whatever the one where not able to sort of visualize things is. And that's unusual. Never trusted him.

Never trusted him. Now I know why. Never trust a five. He's quite artistic, you know, and obviously got started sort of building things in Minecraft. And I don't know, like maybe that, that desire to build and create and show things in that thing comes out from there i don't know he's a creative guy though and it's certainly like not i think there's different ways of being creative like visual like you can be

visually creative but like there you can be sort of there's other ways of of being creative like you might not be able to picture something in your mind but like you said you might be able to go off and and and build something or design something really really amazing or whatever yeah that's how you picture stuff is your imagination goes onto the page yeah and some people's minds just work differently they can invent something very complex that you know other people might not have been able to come up with they said uh was it mozart or beethoven could he could hear the whole symphony in his in his uh in his mind most people when you're thinking of music yeah and you're trying to

imagine a tune you you're actually only really thinking of one track oh man i would write some really boring music like all of my music is just like but like i wouldn't know like where to put the bass lines or anything like it would just be garbage you know what i mean we're not musicians props to him for being able to fucking compose in his mind i'm gonna do it i know you don't like it but shout out to beethoven slash mozart whichever one it was fucking let's do it guys let's do a shout out to shout out people we'll fucking shout out the greats fucking beethoven and mozart job, guys. It is impressive. You think like, you know, that's a while ago too. Those guys came up with that shit.

It is impressive how music and things like this do cause sometimes a reaction. Emotional reaction. I can cry to music easy. Like I have done many times. Last week I was in Sips' kitchen right and we were playing i play i said alexa played toto by africa and lewis started to cry africa by toto you were all sorry we we were all um bopping out you know just fine but sips's daughter was not having it no she wasn't she was not enjoying it at all well it's not it wasn't the the choice of music um she's actually fairly

agreeable the problem with my daughter is that she's very stubborn right she gets it from me um so if she has an idea in her mind that we're going to be listening to i like to move it and we don't listen to i like to move it she'll just sulk no one's having a good time she'll just be fucking miserable about it um and and you know about it too she's got she's she's got that type of personality which i think she gets from me as well where like um you could just tell you know like when she's annoyed about something and like the whole atmosphere of the room is brought down by it as well i don't think i've ever seen you uh annoyed i mean i've seen you when you're playing a game you get pissed yeah but i've never when i'm hanging out with you i've never thought man sips is in a bad mood like no i don't really

get into into bad moods as such like uh like i've seen you get angry but it's always slightly funny yeah well it's always frustration with myself at a game or something like that right it's never like or the game like i think probably like since I stopped working in an office and probably since I stopped having to be like a responsible adult for the most part, I've, I've been the happiest I've ever been. So like, I'm very seldomly like in a bad mood. Right.

Would you say you're in heaven? Would you say this could be heaven? This could be heaven on earth. Yeah. Or is this hell? No, I think I'm a fairly content guy actually it must be some form of heaven yeah like it's it's it's pretty good but um i used to be amazing i

used to get nice when i used to work and stuff like sometimes i go into work and i'd just be fucking so mad like i'd just be like i don't want to be here i don't want to do any of this stuff i hate all these people and stuff you know i mean mean like uh like like i get that i can get you down for sure but i'm lucky i'm lucky that i have a life that doesn't get me down so much now you know guess what i've been playing for the last few days uh hungry hungry hippos nope um connect four nope don't break break the ice break it's a video game it's a video game total by africa um a video game oh i know you've been playing daisy daisy uh cinny came into my chat the other day i was like come play daisy and i was like daisy let me tell you something somehow still worse than overwatch which is

quite super scuffed quite an act but for some reason i've been having fun playing it i have some i have some complaints. Obviously, I'm not going to go into them here because it's a little boring for everybody. But that game is still full price on Steam. Oh, man. I like the idea of DayZ. I like the theme of DayZ. I just don't like DayZ.

Oh, you'd hate it. It's weird. I've had very few experiences with it, and all of them have been bad. You would hate it. I've had very few experiences with it, and all of them have been bad. You would hate it. Yesterday, I spent the whole morning stream running in the woods, getting attacked by wolves, fending off zombies.

I didn't see another player for like four hours. And then I'm walking. I'm in the middle of nowhere. I'm walking towards this industrial site to go loot it. I got my night vision goggles out. I'm peering around. There's no lads. I'm checking. I walk around.

There's a dude on a rock. And he just goes and just guns me down yeah hours of work gone oh my whole survival story for that character gone but i immediately went back in and started again i don't know why i'm hooked on it at the moment but i am i'm like that with overwatch now like and have been for like two months i don't know why you hate yourself i don't hate myself do you want do you like torture because i found a game that you might like. It's a game called Stone Shard. Oh, isn't that new?

Yeah, no, I saw this. It came out a week ago, yeah. Well, it's been on Early Access for a little bit before that, but now it's like a single player Battle Brothers, only you can only save at the inn. Right. And so you have your mercenary. And so I started the game i created

my character i went to shoot this tour but i did it all it was fine and then got got into the game created a character walked out of town there were two wolves there they just savaged me to death and i was like the fuck is this i can't find anything i want to play like like there's nothing new out that is overly appealing to me like I nothing that I've seen that's been like oh fuck you know that looks good I'm gonna try it out or whatever and I'm kind of like I know I'm like I'm playing a lot of Overwatch right now which I have played a lot of in the past but I just I'm at the point now where I'm just like I don't really want to play City Skylines again like I played it yeah I know I played that you know what I mean like

Prison Architect I played tons I don't want to play it again like rim world i played tons of i don't want to play you know what i mean like i need like something new and exciting it's just like it's such a rough there are just there are games in the works that i'm like yeah that looks interesting that looks cool but the thing is you do you guys ever play um game dev tycoon yeah so do you remember in that that i've've got it on my iPad now? Oh, it's such a great game. It's really good. Yeah, it is. So you do you know, the way as you as you get bigger as a developer, your game development time ends up taking forever, like it's almost a whole year to develop a game because they're all AAA titles. And you've got to get all these bubbles and

everything like that for your guys. Do you suppose that the games now are so complicated that there's just not as many of them like the decent games take time and there's only so many developers making decent games so we're like there's nothing out at the moment i want to play it's like it takes a long fucking time people's expectations are so high yeah you can't just knock a game out in a few months boshosh, done. It's got to have all these different layers and all the rest of it, just like in Game Dev Tycoon. It's complicated because games are weird, and they try and do weird stuff too. Sometimes they're like a movie.

They've got a full story, and it feels like just a bad movie, and it's like a bad slow movie. And sometimes it's like a bad slow movie you know and sometimes it's like a puzzle thing and it's like it's like a complicated sudoku or like i mean sometimes it's a mix of those things sometimes it's like just a mindless shooty or a clicky thing i played a little bit of like um walchen which is like a new kind of diablo type game and it felt like it was like the new evolution of Diablo and I enjoyed it but like at the same time

it was like just a little bit like do I care? It's like I get it like I think you have to hunt around but there are

hundreds of games coming out every week like so many and some of them are really quirky and cool and fun and chill and give you good

vibes good healthy new stuff going on in your brain. There's loads of good recommendations out there. So I would, if you're looking for a new game, just look at some best of 2019 lists and best of the decade because there's been some really interesting games

and you probably would have missed one. And I'm doing the same with books and stuff. So how come, right? Civilization is one of the biggest sort of franchises of all time. Why aren't there more companies making Civilization-style games? Why is there only one football management game? Okay, you know, listen, hear me out on this one, okay? It's a huge seller.

You know Farming Simulator? Right. I think their model is junk, okay? Like, I get it, okay? You make one every year and you call it whatever the year it is and you sell all those copies or whatever. But honestly, I think Farming Simulator would be a fucking awesome game if it was a bit more like WoW or something. Like, instead of buying a new game every year, just have like a small subscription or maybe just like a one-time payment to just help them like add new features to farming simulator and just make one farming

simulator really good instead of just releasing the same game year after year after year right you should you should go on the podcast alex and the game devs in the office have made a new podcast i think it's called like pitch perfect they're bringing people in to pitch their games and the game devs talk about whether the game would be possible or not to make and what the downsides would be if you're interested in that they go we just plug in another people another podcast that's unbelievable sorry i didn't want to do that no no that's cross pollination they have to pimp us now and yeah you've got to make sure that they they shout us out now yeah okay no tom h is in it he's good he's funny he's he edits this podcast shout out to Tom's a good lad cut that Tom

So by the way Oscars happened Parasite one great movie in Paris right now. I haven't seen it people keep telling me I should see it It's come out the cinema this week And I watched it and I thought it was pretty weird oh it's weird but it's very very good i still haven't seen the most recent star wars but like i think i'm done don't worry about that i think i'm out i think so you know what i watched last night i watched the towering inferno you heard of this movie oh my god it's a people watch do you watch your like it's itv no no it was on tcm turn Classic Movies and about

5 o'clock because the kids come home from school we were having it at like 3.30 and I let them chill and play their games then about 5 o'clock I go downstairs and I watch some telly so I watched The Towering Inferno and for the first half hour it's quite famous it is a very famous movie kicked off a lot of those big

disaster movies in the 70s like Earthquake and stuff like that and the whole point of it is like you know someone's cut some corners somewhere and now they've got this fucking inferno in the tower and um there's always like certain trope characters that you've got in the 70s that always popped up that's quite funny to see there's always uh a slightly chubby rich older woman who ends up getting stuck in something now it always makes me laugh because in the poseidon adventure they have the same thing and i just it's just funny these characters that pop up the same exact cars if there's kids in the movie they're always the archetypal american kid with the rosy cheeks and the freckles gee mister are we going up in the tower today you know that

kind of stuff and they're always called like little timmy or whatever those are real things that happened in those movies feels so stereotypical yeah like hokey kind of stuff but that was you know that was the thing back then it was like put a bunch of kids on there and uh put them in a inferno or whatever steve mcqueen paul newman uh they don't make a fortune like that that was it there wasn't the same that was like pre-hollywood auteur movement when it was all taken over by the directors. It was much more simple and straightforward. Just bums on seats. Asses in seats. That's what we're looking for.

Gene Siskel of the Chicago Tribune gave it two and a half stars, calling it a stunt and not a story. A technical achievement more concerned with special effects than with actual people. Our attitude towards the film's cardboard characters is, let them burn i mean the funny thing is like the big action sequences in those movies when you compare them

like if you watch um what is it called deep water horizon that's a disaster movie more recent disaster movie about the deep water disaster like the oil rig that explodes everything like that and the actual sequence where it all fucking falls apart is incredible. It's very dramatic and very well done and very well shot. And it's genuinely sort of terrifying. Modern disaster movies, the disaster is so much more dramatic and amazing. Whereas in this, it's like they're in a corridor and the fire goes, and then you cut to the outside, very distant shot of some poor special effects of fire on a building. And it's just just sort of it feels so basic and claustrophobic because of course they couldn't shoot things in the in the same way back then so it is it is quite funny when you watch poseidon adventure which is a great

movie um the whole boat there on turns upside down and the ballroom is everyone's like sliding like that but it feels quite simple by by modern sort of uh standards but these are fun movies i recommend them tcm chucks them out all the time. Yeah, there was a bunch of these. I mean, that sounds like Titanic was inspired by some of that luxury line of flipping over. I'm pretty sure the Titanic

happened before that, Lewis. Yeah, but in the same way, I feel like I've seen these things about a building on fire and airport is like you know like die hard happening or speed you know these disaster movies you feel like i feel like over my lifetime i've seen a movie set in an airport in a building in a plane in a boat something that exists in the world i know but know, but they're part of...

It's good, though. I feel like I'm looking for new ones, though. I've seen a hospital and I don't know. I'm looking for a new setting. Have you seen The Abyss? Yes, underwater. We're then breathing in the... That's a good James Cameron movie.

It's a very good movie. I mean, if you read into the story of how the Abyss got made, we might have even talked about it on this podcast, but it was like a fucking... It was a disaster. It was a disaster for people involved. So read that. They all end up getting stained skin from the water.

The actors put themselves through hell for the Abyss. Pardon me. Bless you. Fuck. Anyway, there you go. That's a bit of Triforce podcast. That snuck up on me. Sorry.

That's all right, Sips. Sorry. You're allergic to... What, do you want to talk more? What have you got? I'm looking. I'm just going through Steam queues and I found Winter Resort Simulator.

Oh, my God. Oh, it's crap. Don't bother. I won't. No, I played it. It's garbage. And on that bombshell. I'll hook you up.

I'll hook you up. And on that bombshell. Yeah, yeah. I'll hook you up with some tips after the podcast. All right. Thanks, everybody. Much love. All right.

See you next time. Peace, everybody. Love you. Bye. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Bye. yeah yeah I'm hooking up with some tips after the podcast alright thanks everybody much love alright peace everybody love you bye bye bye bye bye bye bye