Triforce! - Triforce! #51: Lewis Van Gogh

Episode Date: August 23, 2017

Triforce! Episode 51! Pyrion breaks down TI7, Sips murders thousands of snails and Lewis becomes a budding artist!   Music courtesy of Epidemic Sound Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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at Real Canadian Superstore. Well, two dads and one non-dad. Yes. And we're back. After all this time, it's been a while. It's been a good long while since we've done another Triforce podcast. It's been two weeks. Yeah. Two weeks. So this won't go out for another week. Well, that's the thing because it's the summer vacation. So everybody's like away doing stuff.

The kids are off school. So we have to look after our kids. Flax has been at the international, the Dota 2 international tournament for like two weeks. Lewis has been just lost in his dungeon apartment. He just doesn't know how to get out of it most of the time. And me, I've been here ready, waiting. Like every Thursday I'm ready to go

and nobody turns up, so whatever. We didn't do it last Thursday. We did it the Thursday before that, didn't we? Because it was that shitty audio from my laptop we took yeah oh god it was terrible your camera audio

I said you should have just recorded it on your fucking camera and we could have used that audio because Jesus Christ like that's just it was so bad

anyway we're back yeah we always we always apologize right for not doing podcasts or missing

a week but we don't have to because this is part of the understanding of the podcast that we're gonna miss a week we're not even gonna be around next week but we don't have to because this is part of the understanding of the podcast that we're going to miss a week we're not even going to be around next week because I'm in Gamescom well I might be able to remote in from Gamescom

I think we have a responsibility though that we need to take a little bit more seriously because some people depend on this you know as their weekly sort of source of dad news there's loads of other great podcasts out there guys just don't worry don't listen to any of the other podcasts Don't listen to any of the other podcasts. Don't listen to any of the other ones.

This is the only one. I've been reading some books. I've been busy doing stuff, enjoying life, making the most of my time. You've been reading books? You've been reading books? Nice. Yeah, I finally got around to reading a book that someone bought me for a present a few years ago. Can I make a prediction here, please?

Go ahead. someone bought me like for a present can i make a guess can i make a prediction here please go ahead this is going to be one of those books that you read lewis that then becomes mine camp your new your new your new thing and it's going to be something like uh why you shouldn't close doors behind you or something like that and you're going to be like you know the thing is closing doors is actually really bad for the environment and it's going to be like, you know, the thing is, closing doors is actually really bad for the environment. And it's going to be like a new thing. And every time I close a door now, you're going to guilt trip me about it. The noise pollution from slamming doors is causing birds to be very stressed.

It just propagates a lot of unwanted kinetic energy that the universe does not need. Like there's enough of it out there. It doesn't need it. Exactly. It's terrible so no i've read ready player one right which is a classic it's being made into a movie it's not a classic and it shouldn't be made into a movie i'm very disappointed that it's received have you read it i have oh my dad's a massive fan of this book all right and he said to me you'll love it it's great

it's great it is the most forced attempt at a feeling of nostalgia that i think i've ever read and it's it doesn't make any fucking sense it's a it's a bad book right in my opinion and i don't understand why it's received such praise i've heard about it but i haven't actually read it do i feel like maybe i should read it it took me about five hours to read so it's not a particularly long one. It's a quick read. Yeah, it's definitely, you know, I mean, I've lost more hours than that playing Hearthstone today, it feels like.

Wow, God. Do you know what I mean? So, I mean, some of these books I've been putting off, I've realised actually that they're not as long-winded as I thought, especially bearing in mind how long I play some of these games. So, by the way, you know Divinity? We used to play Divinity 2 in that RPG, right? Just as an aside.

The salt mine. Yeah, that almost broke up our flourishing friendship. Well, that's the thing, because Larian put out this RPG player survey where they surveyed like 15,000 people who played Divinity. Now, I guess they sourced the people from, I guess maybe people who visit Divinity website Now, I guess they source the people from, I guess maybe people who visit Divinity website or follow the Divinity Twitter

or that kind of people. And so, the people who responded to this survey are definitely very strange. But one of the things I noticed was that one of the questions was, what do you feel is the ideal length of an RPG? What's your answer to that, guys? Mine is like about

80 hours, think it was oh that's quite long i'm like i'm old school with my opinion on this i'm i'm gonna say between 80 and 90 hours final fantasy style from like the 90s i i thought that was like a good amount of time to play an rpg good like character development decent enough story you can fit into sort of 80 to 90 hours without it like waffling along too much sort of thing sidetracking too much i mean the witcher 3 i felt was very long and that i completed that in 50 hours okay it says i think if you just didn't do all the side quests i mean i'm sort of i i'm i'm i'm guessing about halfway through it right now i'm playing it where are you

in the witcher 3 i've i've pretty much just finished up Novigrad main quest so the next main quest I have is to go to Skellige so but there's absolutely tons of stuff to come but yeah but I've done a lot of I've done a lot of side tracking I've done a lot of secondary quests and like Witcher contracts and stuff which I've enjoyed yeah but I think like I get the feeling that if you just stick to the main quest and you don't bother with a lot of the extra fluff, which you might be missing out on a couple of bits and pieces if you did it, it feels like it would be about maybe 50 to 60 hours

for the main sort of quest. Yeah. Well, I've just looked at a thing, there's a how long to beat thing, and it says The Witcher 3 is 167 hours if you want to do all of it and all the DLC and every single quest in the game. Did you do the DLC? I did a bunch.

I've got about 55 hours in the game. I did the DLC. I did the main story. I did enough side quests that I enjoyed it. I felt like I did the side quests until they got very repetitive which they did. But I really enjoyed it as a game. I thought it was a good length. Yeah, you're right I really enjoyed it as a game. And I thought that it was a good length.

Yeah, you're right, Pfax. So in this survey, 25% of people said their ideal length of an RPG is 100 hours or more. And I mean, that is obviously, to some extent, I think people were just saying, oh, I just want the most possible out of my game. A lot of people are just saying, well, I just want a really, really long game.

I mean, I think I understand that, though. I think with an RPG, it's kind of the same as, like, for me, watching Game of Thrones. Like, you get immersed in it, and you feel like it's something that you'd like to be immersed in for quite some time. You know what I mean? Like, sometimes I'm watching Game of Thrones, and I think to myself, I hope this never ends. Like, I just love, like, the world that's created. I like the characters, all, like, the different factions and stuff. And I could watch this for much longer than it'll probably go on for sort of thing but i guess like anything you know if it goes on too long or if it overstays its welcome then it can start to

become a bit bad or whatever you know what i mean so it's like i don't know it's i i get that people would want a longer experience but i think you can tell a better story in a shorter amount of time and keep it tight and um you know get your points across exactly i think it's harder to tell a story across this because a lot of these games the story is often secondary but rpgs you have to have the story up front and center good and i think that by trying to fill up empty hours or trying to trying to hit an arbitrary, you end up with a lot of crappy story getting in there, and that kind of deflates the whole thing. I think that you're right about, I think something short will be good.

But the other thing that I really noticed, okay, that this is the one thing that really jumps out at the survey is when they start talking about co-op. So the people who respond to this series do not want co-op multiplayer, right? So here, how much do you value these features in an RPG? People who have bought into this series do not want co-op multiplayer, right? Right. So here, how much do you value these features in an RPG? Okay.

So story rich. Yeah. Like basically everyone said very important. Okay. It's like 90% very important. Tactical combat, people didn't care. They were like moderately. They were like in the middle on that one.

Character progression, massively very important to them. Co-op, not important at all. Massively. 90% of people said co-op for them is just not important in an RPG at all. Which is really interesting because we really enjoyed RPGs, but also we did argue a lot. We did kind of fall out in this weird way. I think that when people play role role-playing games like when you play dungeons and dragons or something it's a social experience right yeah but when you play a role-playing game on the pc i think people see it as a chance to

enjoy a world just just on their own without having to worry about someone else wanting to do the same thing and if you think about computer games if you i mean i play a lot of doter as you guys know and you're relying on four other people it gets frustrating when you're relying on other people and you can see what they're doing wrong and they're not doing it and it's the same in rpgs if you're like let's go down this corridor and you're like no guys we should go down this corridor it's like if you're a single player game which a role-playing game generally is you could just get out whichever flipping corridor you want i think think that's it. There's no argument. I think it's very difficult.

The other thing that we found when we were playing together was that we were never reading any story. We were never sort of stopping at our own pace. We were almost always dictated by other people's pace, and their pace usually was more... Sometimes it wasn't. Sometimes you wanted to be slow, and sometimes they wanted to be slow.

But you were never quite in sync because you're're different people when you're interested in slightly different things and different ways in that rpg because that yeah you know it felt like the experience is definitely different isn't it like yeah like you said you don't read the story as much when you play with people but the experience of playing through it with other people you almost don't really need the story you know what i mean you're just coming up against problems that you're trying to solve. Yeah. Yeah. So it's, it, it opens it up for you to have your own story as a team of people working together. Whereas yeah, the single player experience, you are going to just be really invested in the story. It's, it's almost like it's two separate games, like single player and then co-op,

which I think is kind of cool actually. Like, you know't i personally i don't think i would play divinity alone i'd i'd rather play it with you know somebody or or you know like you guys like a group of people because i found that more more fun than just playing through it all by myself like you know as much as i probably would have liked the story i would have skipped a lot of it yeah but it still felt like a single player game that we were playing co-op like i think that was my my issue with it is it it didn't feel like you sometimes you want to do something or try something and the other people don't want to do that and in a single player game obviously you could do whatever you like so like when i play the witcher i i have that freedom and because it's a big open world you can pretty much do whatever you like now

if we were playing the witcher three player but one thing would you guys have followed me around for 20 hours while i went and got every gwent card in the game no and that would be incredibly boring for anybody else so it's like that is a real thing you paid me money i would have maybe geez and the second time through that i played it first time through as far as where i was going to leave for skelliger i went to skelliger and i immediately thought like in fact this was last TI I had to go to TI so I came back and I'd forgotten how to play it and I just it sat on the shelf I just played Dota for three months and then I tried to pick it back up again and it didn't work so I had to start again from scratch and I was glad I did that because I played it through slightly differently and I actually really enjoyed it I

think it's a fabulous game definitely one of the one of the best games I've ever played. And if I'd had to play it with another person, I think it would have been a completely different experience and nowhere near as fun. That's just the way I see it. Yeah, certain games, I think with The Witcher, being that you control one character and it's pretty straightforward,

like the combat is not really strategic apart from parrying and dodging and you know killing a group of guys that get the jump on you or whatever whereas in divinity you know like a fight can last for like an hour oh yeah depending on how you how you cut it and how your guys are built it's much more strategic much more yeah yeah every freaking fight in in bloody divinity was was a strategic battle because you bump into something that seems fairly simple and you get wiped out by it and you're like jesus there's no fighting in this game that's easy i did enjoy a lot playing with you guys i did too like it's a hundred percent different experience

but i think that sometimes i think a lot of the people on the survey right are very single player focused because i think the tradition that's what rpgs have been and and a little bit like reading a book you know you do get into it um and you do you do want that sometimes i want that experience but when i play games these days i try not to play them solo i feel like if i'm gonna do something solo it can be off the computer yeah i mean another thing to consider as well as in my own bedroom where we're coming from. We do this for a living, right? We play these games. We earn a living off of it.

I'm not sure that the three of us would play Divinity together and finish it from start to finish without it being recorded and putting up somewhere. You know what I mean? I don't know, though. Maybe not us, but I think other people do, right? I was looking around. One of Jane in the office was playing through Borderlands 1 and 2

with some of her friends, and they were doing that just offline for fun. It was like a thing, and they really had a good blast going through that. I know, period. People play games for fun. Unbelievable. Anyway, so we're kind of intertwined with the business side. So you're back for TI. What was your verdict compared to previous TIs?

Go on, let's have a rundown of what we'd be doing in our lives. Wow, holy, that was a segue. Jesus Christ. Sorry. Sorry. I was just looking at that survey. It just made me think. That's all.

It made me think a little bit. So TI this year was very mechanical, it felt to me, compared to TI6. TI6, I think, was most people that I've spoken to, that was their favorite. That was the previous TI, obviously. And it felt like it had a bit more charm and a bit more humor, but it also had great games and great storylines. And it was just, it was fantastic. It was a brilliant TI.

It had a great meta as well. Like it was a very, very good version of Dota. It was a very, very good version of Dota. TI7 also had a very good version of Dota. Wonderful games, like some wonderful games. And Liquid winning it was brilliant. It was a brilliant run that they made. And it was like an against all odds thing. All the Chinese teams seemed unbelievably strong, beat everybody else.

And Liquid just did it. And some very clutch games, wonderful performances. And the games were great but they went for this panel this year that was a newcomer to Dota relative newcomer in day nine I know he's been watching TI for years but he's only started playing like a year ago I think if that yeah which is which is fine I mean you can watch football without playing it you can watch Dota without playing it is harder to understand it and a lot of the time I feel like if I didn't play Dota and I was trying to watch it, it would be a hell of a lot harder

to follow what was going on. And I know there are moments when you're watching it with people who don't really know the game. Someone will do something and people who play the game a lot will go, ooh, like it's, oh, you know, you see, yeah, you're like, holy shit.

I understand exactly how hard that was and what a brilliant play it was and all the rest of it. But if you're just watching it as a casual observer, you'd be sort of like just looking for the team fights, basically, and the big spells. You wouldn't see the subtlety to it. Yeah.

Well, I mean, but even team fights, I think, are very hard to follow unless you're a Dota player because they're so quick. Like stuff that's happening, you really have to play the game to learn. Like, okay, this guy's here, this guy's here. These things these things are going to go off you kind of you have to know who's playing and what to what to predict and what to expect and you only really get that from playing the game but you i think it is still possible especially the commentators do a great job of

building up the hype so you can still watch it and feel uh that emotion um but i think yeah i mean sometimes that that's sometimes that's all it is. If you get a charismatic enough commentator, he can get anyone excited about anything. Yeah, exactly. Like, fuck, like, oh my God, this guy's making a sandwich! He's got a two slice of bread! He's doing it! He's putting the butter on!

Oh my God, he's got the ham! He's got the tomato! He's got the mustard! Oh my God! He's done it! He's made a sandwich! Do you know what I mean? That kind of...

Well, every day. Holy shit? That kind of crazy commentary going. You could get someone psyched about fucking anything. I got a lot of respect for Dota 2 commentators, though. Team fights, like you said, are pretty messy. It's hard to know what's going on at the best of times. Even if you play the game, they can be pretty chaotic. Keeping track of all of the abilities that are going off all the spells and synergies and everything and and these and most of these guys cast it pretty flawlessly and it's i think it yeah i always i always think that that

must just be such a hard thing to do and you must be so conscious of yourself doing it as well you know try not to screw up you know and i mean that's i think that the pressure that they feel that's interesting you say that because i mean these guys have been doing it for a long time right um and they're very confident and comfortable doing it um the analyst position is a little harder so you've got your commentator your co-commentator would generally be someone more knowledgeable and they'll be the ones after the action has been called and it's like a huge team fight just like lewis was doing with the sandwich they'll come in and say yeah what changed it there was this spell usage or this item and they'll say didn't manage to get so and so off in time and that was what

turned the fight so they'll spot that one detail that they're meant to do that were that you you could easily miss but their appreciation the game and their ability to spot that stuff is so much higher level but to them it's obvious right so so day nine day nine is more like uh i mean i think he's a commentator like for starcraft 2 right like he knows that game inside yeah he does casting it's really good yeah i'm a huge fan of course he's brilliant i used to watch his stuff um when i was into starcraft 2 this is before dota i would watch his podcasts and his uh youtube videos and him and husky and i would try and learn the videos and him and Husky, and I would try and learn the game and I'd watch replays. I was really, really into StarCraft. And when he knows

his game, I think he's much more confident. And I feel like they put him on a panel with three experts. So three either pro or three current pros or ex-pros. And I think it was a very difficult conversation for him to have because he's coming in from a much lower level of understanding and they're all talking about the game at a vastly higher level of understanding. So I think him being able to mediate that conversation is much more difficult. So I'm not so sure that having three experts on the panel was the way to go for his sake and I think also for the audience's sake it was uh too much you don't need three experts because there's generally one agreed version of what happened why did liquid

win they did this better than anyone else okay end of conversation what you have there though if you have a real expert that's fine but i think that sometimes dota especially even the pros and all the experts uh don't see everything because it all happens so quick. And sometimes they get it wrong. I mean, I imagine that's one of the worst things about being a commentator is that going onto Twitter or Reddit and just seeing things you've missed, it's like, oh, shit, actually, yeah, this is, oh, my God, this guy's right, this guy's right.

And I think that they have to kind of, these guys have to be confident enough and convincing enough that in in their own stuff they can't be they can't be unsure about themselves i think having three people to discuss that and bounce off if if they have a consensus fucking fantastic but i don't know i don't know if you're gonna if there will be as comfortable if there aren't extra voices and also we know what it's like pflax to have extra voices there is very useful because you know it means that someone is always waiting to jump in and give their input you never get dead air if you have four people at the casting desk well but that's the problem it's not about the dead air it's about trying to have a conversation and imagine if i was saying to you guys uh the

triforce podcast is a podcast that involves me lewis and sips we would all agree on that yeah what what do you have to add to that? I mean, if you want to add detail, you can. I mean, I would probably mention as well that I'm good-looking, probably. Right. I think if you were to rate all three of us against each other,

I would probably come out tops, like, considering, you know... So, you're going with that? Yeah, I would add that to the conversation. I would say... I see. That Sips guy... You're the good-looking one.

But see, this is actually more conversation... PFLA more more conversation one with more experience disagreement well then then happened on the panel no i'd say the panel was like much much less opinion and much more i would move to censor those opinions immediately because they they contradict my known opinions i'm just saying opinion is good looking i am opinion opinioninion schmopinion. Let's talk in absolutes. Yeah, but listen, another thing that I thought was great on the panel, like I watched, I didn't watch TI exhaustively. I watched it, you know, bits and pieces and I enjoyed it.

I like the tournament atmosphere. The games are very exciting. You know, the production quality of TI is very nice as well. And it's just a fun tournament to sort of like keep up is very nice as well and it's it's just a fun tournament to to sort of like keep up with for the two weeks that it's on for yeah it's exciting but i i was i was really impressed when they had um they had artesi on the on the panel at one point yeah that's great and that's great guess like you know guest panelists that have been yeah yeah and you think you know this guy's a pro. He's not a caster. He's not like,

you know, he's not a panelist sort of thing, you know, like it'd be interesting to see what he has to say because sometimes, you know, these guys, they get up there, they're not used to like casting or being a panelist. They're not used to really being interviewed that much or whatever, you know, they play the game pretty hardcore and they're

very good at the game, but actually getting his insights into the game that was coming they're very good at the game but actually getting his insights into the game that was coming up to see you know he predicted what like the picks were going to be he predicted what the counter picks were going to be and like that that knowledge of like the patch and the meta is it's crazy you know like you can play the game so much and and and still not really have that really specific insight into those picks and counterpicks. And it was just really interesting to see. That's kind of what TI is.

It's not really just a measure of skill because all the players that play at TI are unbelievably good. Obviously, there are some that are better, but we're talking about the very top 0.01% of Dota players worldwide competing at a tournament. It really is that high level. So the skill gap between the winner and the team that finished last is not that huge. It really isn't.

You couldn't honestly say that the players that finished 10th were way, way, way worse than the guys that won. Because in other tournaments, we've seen like OG, for instance, didn't do well at this TI but they won four majors so one of the things that matters at TI is who understands the game as it is best played right now like what is the best way to play the game right now that is one thing and some teams have a better understanding of others of how to win games of Dota in this patch and the other thing is literally who has the balls and who isn't gonna get scared

that's it like all the players talk about pressure and fear and when they go out there and i mean imagine walking out you're normally playing this game on your own so going back to what you guys were saying about co-op games doter is a basically a team game but you essentially play it on your own you're in your room you're controlling your hero you're watching the other heroes but you're not controlling them all of a sudden you're in a booth next to the other people you're playing with and there's like 12 000 people screaming around you lights and all the rest of it and you know millions of people are watching around the world so that pressure is immense i wonder if it if there's ever a situation where those pro players are like up on stage in the booth playing with each other

you know playing their heroes getting through a game you know and um you know what one of the teammates just turning around like right before a team fight is about to to kick off and calling another teammate a gutless cunt do you think that that's something that doesn't happen in a pro game you were gutless in that play i watched the video i. I felt bad for what I said, but I was 100% right. So Pflax watched back an old Dota video of him calling Sips that. And I think that

when we used to play Dota together, the three of us, that was just par for the course, Pflax. None of us batted an eyelid about that. We and you would have these incredible arguments, but both of us would have this big grin on our face. It's true. Honestly, I've played dota with a lot of people that infuriate me and

i've infuriated a million people when i played it with them still do it like i just i played it this morning it was great i mean i just love it i mean i've reached this point now where i'm kind of philosophical about it and when i when i make a mistake or someone makes a big mistake you can laugh like there's a guy that I play with quite often, and he was Tidehunter, and he double tapped his blink. If you don't play Dota, what that means is you blink back towards your own base. So he was trying to blink in as Tidehunter to Ravage, which is a big spell that stuns everybody in a huge area.

He was going to blink in, he was going to Ravage, we're going to win the fight and win the game, and he double tapped blink and Ravage. So he blinked away from the fight, Ravagedaged and we lost the game now oh geez if i was like your average raging pub player i would never play with that guy again and i would it would be awful but i play them all the time people fuck up it's it's funny yeah i don't mind a big mistake like that no but i hate cowardice sips i won't abide no you don't mind a big mistake so that you can just blame and shame them after the fact and um but you know carry on like nothing happened that's that's cool flex i get it i understand wow yeah i've seen you play game sips and you get ridiculously angry we played dirt the other night you were angry that the

hero in lane was using his abilities on you i know i hate that like you were furious i think if you're gonna fucking stupid games oh i know but he's just casting a spell on you up and play dota against me don't use your fucking abilities, okay? Let me win. I'm a fragile man, okay? I need to have a couple of wins to have a good night, okay? You get into a rut

with Dota, though. You play it a bit, and then you sort of... Especially in games, when you're playing with guys like Shane, Shane is like 5k mmr so like playing a game with him means that automatically you're going to be playing with people who are much better than you yeah it's very difficult it's really soul destroying it sucks playing against people who are very very much so better than you you know what i mean like

i can just about handle a game in solo queue where I'm amongst people that are generally my skill level or whatever, but playing in games where people are just completely miles ahead of you in terms of every game mechanic and whatever is, it can be pretty frustrating. It is, but I tell you what, I veer between playing with people that are way, way worse than me, as good as me or much better than me. And when I play against the as me or much better than me and when i play against the people who are much better than me and then i play against the shitters it is hilarious how much easier the game is like if you play enough against good players you'll spot the stuff you can't get away with and you'll know exactly how far you can push your hero

because they will yeah when you play against the absolute shitters the game is like oh it's like easy mode it's wonderful and you just run all over them we want to get it's like a 20 minute stomp just crushed and these kids had no idea what to do it was brilliant but i guess i guess in terms of if you want to play the game and you want to get better it's probably better to practice against people that are better than you right because then you it yeah yeah it's it's a it's a more meaningful sort of practice you you'll right you'll generally probably improve skill wise playing against people that are better than you as opposed to playing really easy games where you just stomp people yeah but it's not lazy like if you're just having a calm game of dota in the evening and you queue into a 5k stack and you're like two and a half k you're not gonna have a fun

time like you're just not you're gonna have to play the five support you're not gonna get any cool items you're not gonna get many kills you just die a lot and just do the job and win the game it is methodically tediously boring it really can be yeah so let's move on from dota um what have you guys been up to otherwise you got any like real life stories playing dota actually like we've just been playing dota so let's talk about Dota a bit more now that we've... So Kurt, Sips' son, sent me some art that he did. Oh, man. And he sent me art before. Man, he's getting really good at art. I was very impressed with it.

So I was like, can you send me some more? And he sent me a whole pack of like 20 things he's drawn. It's like 20 pages of stuff and so i was like damn this is this is some some serious some serious time has gone into this i feel kind of bad like you know oh yeah i need to i need to return like it's like if someone texts you um like a selfie of himself right or something like this it's almost like automatic that you want to that you you have to reply with at the selfie i don't know maybe that's just me but that you want to that you you have to reply with a selfie i don't know maybe that's just me but if someone does so for you you have to kind of like do stuff back

right it's kind of a this that's how things go so i feel like i need to do some art right to send back to your son okay um so i bought a canvas like a couple of canvases right uh half price and i bought like a starter pack of oil paints. Sure. And so I'm going to paint something for your son. Great. Okay. And send it to him. On a canvas. Do not paint a portrait of my wife.

Okay. That's the only thing that that's that you can't do that. Okay. Because it'll, it'll offend her. I'm sure it will. Like, wow. Because self, you know, when people like do a portrait. She is an oil painting already.

But the thing is, like, you can She is an oil painting already, Sips. But the thing is, like, you can't do an oil painting of somebody and send it to them. Okay. Because like, it's always going to be offensive, isn't it? Because like, it doesn't matter how good you, well, some people are exceptionally good. So maybe not, not so much that. But like, if you have questionable art skills, I don't think you should be doing portraits of people. My art skills are non-existent okay so don't do not do a portrait of anyone in my family and send it to my family okay

why don't you want because they will be pissed why would they because i can't do it anyway i mean how are you kidding me because i could give it a go now i'm up for it right okay but it'll be like some picas you know, crazy surrealist shit. I'm just curious, Sibs. You'd be offended by someone doing a portrait of someone in your family? Not really, no. But I'm just saying, like, you know. I'm just curious.

I'm just curious. Don't do an oil painting of me and give me, like, a bigger nose than I already have or something like that. It's not going to be like looking into a mirror. I'm not fucking some sort of renaissance dutch artist who's been commissioned to sort of get a photo realistic picture do you mean she's gonna be she'll be lucky to have a fucking no well i'm not sure what the expectation with you're like i got canvas i got some oil paintings and i got some charcoal and stuff i thought you were a really like hot shot artist that's no i can't do to me sips i'm garbage like you know but but your son is so so open to like just doing anything it

made me think damn you know he's willing to give it a go so i should be winning in the pictures that he sent to you did he send you pictures of ghostbusters uh yeah there were like some some it's like there's probably a lot of of Five Nights at Freddy's characters. There's a bunch of really cool modern art stuff, which is just colors squashed all over the place. I really, I was inspired by that. I just thought, man. Yeah. Some of those might have been my daughter's as well.

Okay. Because she, like when, when my son is like drawing and coloring and stuff, she, she doesn't even know what she's doing, but she, she needs to join in. Like she has to do whatever he's doing right and oftentimes like has to use the the crayon that he's using at that time as well which is kind of annoying because they fight about it and stuff right but so he'll be sitting there drawing something like like you know the stay puff marshmallow man or you know these five nights at freddy's characters or whatever and he's got like all this lore behind them he's talking about them he likes to draw like Pokemons and stuff as well.

Nice. He started inventing his own Pokemons, which is pretty cute too. Okay. So, you know, he's sitting there doing that and he's like talking about what he's drawing and he's saying like, oh, look at this and stuff. And my daughter's just trying to mimic everything that he's doing. So she'll be like, she's got the pen and she'll be like, pen? And I'm like, yeah, yeah, you're holding a pen.

She's like, pen. It's like, yeah, yeah, you're holding a pen. She's like, pen. It's like, yeah, yeah, you're holding a pen. And she's like looking at you so that you tell her what to draw. So you're like, um, all right, well, draw a picture of a car. Okay. And then she just like does like a little mark on the page and looks up like for that approval. And you're like, whoa, that's amazing.

And then she starts laughing and stuff. And then she sort of looks at you again and you're like, uh, okay, uh, draw a ball. Okay. Just like a little mark. Hey,

start clapping and stuff. I mean, I feel like that's me and art though. I'm going to be exactly like that, you know? So I don't know what the fuck I can help you. I got a question. Go on.

My question is this. If another man delivered a beautiful painting of your wife to your house. Yeah. You'd kill him, wouldn't you? You'd kill him. It depends, though. Like, I don't think I would. If he was the hunchback of Notre Dame, no, I wouldn't kill him, actually.

I'd fucking kill him. I wouldn't feel threatened at all. That's a death sentence. That's a death sentence in the Flax household. You'd have to learn more, right? With a fucking painting of my wife that you've done? What are you doing? No, no.

That's an attempted cucking right there. I tell you what. Let's get right in the bonfire, and the artist is next. If Don Draper turned up to my house, okay, rang the doorbell, and was holding a portrait that he'd painted of my wife, I'd be like, Don, you better step the fuck off. You know, get out of here, okay? Don't let my wife see you, okay?

You're a handsome man. And I don't want her to think that you're fucking artistic and in love with her and stuff either. Go away, please, Don Draper. But, like, man, if it was like, you know, fucking Napoleon Dynamite's brother that turned up with a painting, I'd be like, whatever, you nerd.

Get out of here, Todd. Get out of here. I'll fucking give her the painting and stuff. I wouldn't feel threatened at all in that case. Maybe that's just me but then you're making a decision there that is like

is this person a threat but it's not just the threat it's the intention it's not just whether they're an actual threat they're intending to you'd have a painting

of your wife painted by another man hanging on the wall it's like permanent reminder that some other dude is coveting your wife well she's seen it

it's too late did she pose for this she's coveting your wife. Well, she's seen it. It's too late, Sip. Did she pose for this? She's like, this is beautiful. And she, no, he's done it from memory, which is even creepier. Was she naked in it? Yeah, she's naked and it's clearly painted from a photo taken with a long lens. Okay, but listen. Oh my God.

This is beautiful. This is such a lovely painting. I'm going to hang this in the bedroom, Sip. What do you think of that? And every time we're making love, you can look up see todd it's todd's painting staring down here i know but the thing is if you're too heavy-handed about it she might start to think like if you were like no i'm not having that painting up there i'm really close to like this this this open discussion and stuff she might be like oh maybe maybe i can maybe I can find a confidant in Todd in his loving embrace.

You know, you might push her away. You don't want to be heavy handed when you're doing that. No, yeah. I am permanently heavy handed. I can't help it. You don't want to be can-candid with it. So I would smash it up in front of him right there on the doorstep. I'd say, can you just wait here for two seconds?

And I'd come back with a claw hammer and just smash it to bits. I'd say, there you go. Come back with a blowtorch. How would you smash it? It's not a fucking sculpture. It's a piece of art on a canvas. Yeah. What does a canvas have around it, though?

Well, it's got like a wooden sort of backing. What do you think a core hammer will do to that? Short work. It'll make short work of that piece of so-called art. He's put like a lot of hours into that. Listen, what if it was incredibly unflattering? And you thought, oh, God. The hammer goes in him, right in his dome.

Wow. This is all pretty extreme. I don't know. What do you think the ramifications of these actions? I think your wife would think that you're a fucking psycho, for starters. Yeah. She knows what I am. I think it's causing too much trouble.

Not only claw hammer a portrait, but then claw hammer a man in his dome. I wouldn't actually hurt another human being so no of course not the threat of it is lingering i think you've got this all wrong guys look if he comes in right and he's like oh you're like oh you've done a painting good for you come and come and see and what and you watch the awkward interaction as he presents it to your wife you just let him dig his own grave. He's not going to suddenly sweep her off her feet and she'll go, Oh, Todd, you've come back after

all these years. I've been thinking about you every night. I have to wake up and look at that bald head. I've been thinking about your long Amazonian hair. A hairy man, a hair having man comes to my house with a portrait. Take me away from this hellhole.

You know what I'd do? I wouldn't stand for it. You know what my play on this would be? As soon as I heard the doorbell ring and I had any sort of inkling that a man was standing out there with a portrait that he'd done of my wife, okay? I would immediately rush into the kitchen and start doing the dishes, okay? So that I could be doing the dishes. And while I was doing the dishes, I'd also put the dinner on as well. I would start the dinner cooking. So then after my wife answers the door and she's like, Oh my God, this man's just turned up to our house

and giving me a portrait that he's painted of me. I would be like, Oh, that's great, honey. Hang on. I'm just, just getting through these dishes and the, and the dinner's on too. So like, just give me, just give me a second. But like, that's great. I'm so happy that he's done that. And then I think that you cover yourself perfectly in that case. Cause then she's like, oh, you know what?

This guy's done a portrait, but oh, my husband's doing the dishes and like fucking cooking the dinner and stuff. And like, you know, I got a lot of respect for that. So I'm just going to bust this portrait over my knee and chase this guy down with a claw hammer while he's doing that and then i think that would be really good i think that's the best way to play it i'm not saying that you have to do the dishes and do the dinner like all

the time just in that one i do that all the time anyway so i didn't think there'd be no difference do you guys ever drawn anything or been artistic in any way or ever i'm not bad at art i'm okay okay i can hold my own what kind of things have you done lately or ever oh lately nothing i mean i'm i'm i'm horribly lazy like i just play video games so yeah at school i i was like fairly artistic like i did pretty good in like art class and stuff when i was when i was a kid i used to like drawing a lot and painting coloring and stuff. And I was like, I was all right at it. Like all things considered, like that's okay.

I can help my son with stuff. Like he's like, oh, you know, can you draw me the Ecto-1 or whatever? Like you can give me a picture of the Ecto-1 and I can copy it and it looks okay and stuff. So that's about it. Like I'm not like an actual artist though. Like I don't sit down and fucking just draw stuff for fun or whatever but like i i'm all right i'm like i'm proficient i think i i got techniques shading techniques i i know some you know when you just like smudge the pencil to make some shading and stuff and like thatching and nice crap like that i was thinking much more in terms of like for me it's it's all about like, just, just thinking

up dumb ideas. Like, like you go to, I've been to a lot of modern art galleries. Okay. Right. Because I've had, I don't know, I've just ended up doing it. And I feel like I've been to them all over the place. Um, and a lot of them are consistently eye rolly, right? You go in there and you're like, you roll your eyes at this thing.

And you move to the next room and you're like, oh, for God's sake. And you roll your eyes and then you move on to the next thing. And it's just like, that's basically me. My eyes are just goggling all out. How many of these places have you been to? Because like, I'd only have to go to a place once and do that to know that I'd never want to go again. But I kind of, like, I was thinking about this, okay? Like, so I was listening to this podcast.

I was listening to Russell Brand's podcast. What's wrong? I know. God damn it. And he interviewed this guy who was like a, who's an Anglican, like not preacher, Anglican. Preacher? Just like a clergyman, a priest, a priestman in English.

A preacher man. And he used to be a sort of molecular biologist. And the reason he went back to, he had this story about the reason after being a scientist he went back to religion was because there were certain things that science couldn't explain. And one of them was

the beauty of a flower. It's like, how do you explain the beauty of a flower? And I was kind of, I don't know, there's something about that and I kind of felt that same way like when i went around these monarch galleries although i definitely was i my eyes were just all over the floor rolling down the corridors it was some things were like actually actually i i quite like that and i don't know why i and that i find that beautiful or interesting or pleasurable to look at. And I don't know why.

So I sort of, I feel like I have, I've always enjoyed going around these modern art galleries just as an experience. And I've, I don't know, it's just, I hate portraits. I hate portrait galleries. I hate like some of these realistic things and landscapes. And I hate a lot of the tat where it's like my unmade bed or, you know, some of that gibberish or like half a cow stored in a piece of plexiglass. Like, I'm not a big fan of all that crap. I think a lot of that art is made for other artists rather than regular people.

Or made for shock value. But sometimes you see something... I have an unmade bed and I'm going to display that. Like, that's a talking point. I mean, we tracy emmons unmade bed right which i can't know what the name of it is but it's basically the bed that she slept in and like it's it tells all this story you look around it there's like cigarette ends and underwear and stuff and it's like you know she had sex in this bed it's like it was her bed so there's a story to the bed and it is interesting to say a bed here you you go, what do you think of this?

It's at least thought-provoking, and everybody talks about it. The cow and formaldehyde, we may complain, but everybody knows about it. So art should start people talking, even if the only conversation is, is that art, is at least a conversation about art. I'd rather people were talking about it than just going, oh, don't care, no, don't know anything. Like, it is interesting. Yeah, exactly. I get to a lot of galleries as well and i also roll my eyes at a lot of the shit they put in there my worst ones are the ones where you go in i saw one i went into

um the tape gallery not tape modern but tape britain and one of the exhibits is just three fluorescent bulbs on the wall right that's it just three fluorescent lights on a wall and that angers me because i think what what is that like it's just it's literally fluorescent lights on a wall. And that angers me because I think, what is that? Like, it's just, it's literally three lights on a wall. It's cheap. It feels like they're attempting to make art without putting any fucking thought into it. But you know they agonized over what color to make those three lights and what angle to hang them at.

It's like, it's a big deal to that person. But in a way, like, as I've grown older, and this may sound totally weird, but I have found that i quite enjoy the feeling of little bit of kind of like eye rolly anger that that provokes a little bit like i don't really like eating certain things like olives i don't think i really like olives but i like how the taste of not liking them does that make sense no it absolutely does not make sense i don't know i like the experience of not liking things sometimes you enjoy you enjoy how much you don't enjoy olives is that what you're telling me you you're not really not yeah i suppose so i like the experience of figuring out why i don't like it in a way lunatic i don't know it's weird sometimes

something like something something i think I think that's the case sometimes with these things that are a bit sort of gross like kimchi is pretty disgusting tasting as well what?

what Korean pickled cabbage that tastes like a flipping old stinky dishcloth kimchi you don't like olives or kimchi

well I do tell me your top three things but I don't I don't like them but I do like them I do. Tell me your top three foods. I don't like them, but I do like them. That's the weird thing. And I think a lot of things are like that, like a quiet taste, like Marmite and things like this. Give me your top three foods. Top three foods.

You have to have dinner right now. One of the three things you'd be like, oh, I know what I'll have. These are the three things I'll whack in there. Boom. That's going to be delicious. Go on. Three things together? It's like a well, three separate meals. A meal with three things in it. Three things in a meal. What are they gonna be?

Well, my favorite sort of foods, I guess are, um, if you say quinoa or quinoa, I'm gonna, I'm gonna help you down. No, no, no. It's gotta be like a spicy pizza. Do you know what I mean? Like the whiz with a nice pizza. Honestly, like I think the pizza is one of the things that has stopped me from being vegan because I'd love to be vegan, but I love cheese too much. And it's impossible. Halloumi is really, really good, isn't it? I love halloumi and things.

I was going to say, for my three, I would have halloumi. I would have maybe some red pepper and then some diced onions. Three. That would be fucking perfect. You could have all of that on a pizza. That's a meal right there. Think about it. You could eat that bowl of that and it'd be fine.

What are you going to say, fucking P-Flex? Donuts, beer and cigarettes. Cider. First of all, I don't smoke cigarettes. It's a vape. All right. And it's only water vapor, of course. Beer would definitely be on my list.

Beer or wine or cider some kind of alcohol um but again beer like i think the stronger beers like i'm not a fan of like ales and stuff but again i i can drink one and be like hmm i wonder why i don't really like this but i i like it in the same in the sense like they're they're very acquired tastes and people don't you know you don't grow up as a kid liking the taste of beer or wine no you know when does that happen when does that flip come well your taste buds are different when you're younger as well like yeah but also when you realize the benefits of but is it just like when you start smoking it tastes it's just a peer pressure thing though in when you're like

sort of 17 16 17 18 when you're like i've got to like beer because it's what men like so i'm gonna keep drinking it until i like it joey i guess so i mean there are some people who just never get used to the taste of it they just never really like it but if i'm really had a hard day there is nothing like cracking open a beer and having it exactly and that happened to me and that definitely happened to me and it was like i i don't know i can't pinpoint the time when that happened but there was a long time when i didn't like beer and then one time it was like a really hot day and i got home and i cracked when i opened out the fridge and i sat there and i was like holy shit i really enjoyed this and i was like when did this happen to me

i'll tell you what it is suddenly what what do children generally speaking not have they don't have any concerns they don't have any cares they don't have any stress they don't have any worries they're children right when you're a grown-up, what the beer does is it mingles with the bitterness that you feel for being an adult. It's the sadness and the anger. Oh, that's what it is because kids can't- It becomes a flavour. They don't have any bitterness in them. Well, no, but they do. Yes, that's right. So, the reason that kids don't like Brussels sprouts and broccoli and all these green vegetables is because they can taste the bitterness. And as you grow up, you can't,

your taste buds. The bitterness that you feel overpowers the bitterness of the flavor. And eventually, that's right. You can just taste it. It's true flavor. It's true. Oh my God. Man, that's so true though. There's nothing like having, like on a hot day when you're out doing like some roofing or something and you just like open open a bottle of suds and oh god there's nothing better if you've done any roof

work in your life you'll know if you've done something that was worth you're up there with morgan freeman and you're just hot as hell and it's like a man feels more like a man if he can have a bottle of suds certain time yeah you just need just need those suds man geez yeah honestly i have done very little hard outdoor labor in my life but anytime that i have and there's a beer involved tell you what it's all worth it i usually have like you know glorious days it's almost like what lewis was saying about not enjoying something just to to he enjoys not enjoying it the difference here i think is if you do like let's say you do a really hard bit of work i had to pull up a massive tree stump in the garden a couple years back it's huge so i cut down the tree

had to ship all the stuff to the to the tip and all that and then i had the tree stump and i had i got a pickaxe and i dug this fucking thing out of the ground it took me like two hours of hacking and digging and sawing finally got out of the ground got It took me like two hours of hacking and digging and sawing. Finally got out of the ground, got it in the bin, job done. And Mrs. F handed me a cold beer. And I was like, this beer, this single beer, erases all that hard work and everything. In an instant, you're just like, this was worth it for this moment when I can relax after a piece of hard work

and I've got this cold beer. And that beer is the signal to your brain that says, the workday is done. Now we just sit around complaining about stuff. Not my body. I need this. Oh my God.

Do you know what? Because she was watching you in the garden. Oh, she was loving it. And Todd came round and painted her with a portrait, yeah. from behind

looking out at you working. But she looked out and saw a man working. Who did she bring a beer to? Todd or me? Me. Well, only to keep you busy while she went back in to speak to Todd.

She hid your claw hammer as well. Jesus fucking Todd. No, it's true. Like if I go out and mow the lawn and it's like a really sunny day or whatever, sometimes after I'm done, I just sit down outside and just have like a cold glass of cider. And that's really nice too. It's just like, you know, it just hits the spot. God, I could go for a drink glass of cider and that's really nice too it's just like yeah you know just hits the spot right now but it's only midday man so so like a couple of weeks

ago i mowed i have to mow my lawn once a week because it just if i leave it too long and this happened recently part of me i left it too long okay i left it like three weeks i was just being really lazy and i left my lawn for three weeks. And holy crap, do not leave your lawn grow for three weeks, okay? Because it becomes a jungle. And then when you actually do go to mow it, it takes like five times as long as it would normally take. Because you're constantly emptying out the bag. Oh, shit. It's getting all fucking jammed up because when grass gets super long, like it retains a lot of water.

And it's like all wet and shit. And like it just gets all jammed up. Oh, it's the worst. of water and it's like all wet and shit and like it just gets all jammed up oh it's the worst so i left it for like three weeks i went out and mowed it and like even when i was done i was not satisfied because it was like really clumpy still there was like lots of like strands but i was tired and i was like you know what i'm just gonna leave it and then next week when i do the mow i'll i'll get like i'll get it looking like tip top and it did like the week after it was it was fine but what i did was i had this huge huge bag of grass clippings okay so i put it into the trunk of the car and i was like okay you know in a minute like after i've like composed myself

i'm just gonna take this down to the dump and put it like in the green waste or whatever and then that that's me done and then i fucking forgot to do it. Okay. And then a couple of days went by and I was like, shit, um, I forgot to take those, those clippings to like the dump or whatever, but they're probably fine just sitting in the back of the car. And it was like pretty hot. And like the sun was beating down in the car and the car was all hot and stuff. So after a couple of days, get in the car to take my son somewhere and open the door. I was like, what is that smell? Like, it smelled like there was a dead body in the car to take my son somewhere and open the door it's like what is that smell like it smelled like there was a dead body in the car i couldn't believe it i was like holy shit like

has somebody pranked me like thrown a shit into my car or something like i don't know what's going on here so i sat down i was like oh fuck it's those grass clippings isn't it like i left the grass clippings in the car for a couple of days so i go in the trunk yeah so i go in the trunk and i open it up and like the smell just like almost knocked me over fuck yeah it's definitely these grass clippings like I should not have left them in here so I open

the bag cause it was like kinda closed like it wasn't tied closed or anything but it was just folded over closed I open the bag and I almost barfed it was like full of fucking like spider webs and like there was like full of fucking like spider webs. And like, there was like these things moving around and like all the grass was like all

wet and gross and stuff. And it was like, it was like in the middle of forming its own, like brand new ecosystem in there. It was mulching. it was fucking gross. Like I've never seen anything like it. And even taking it to the dump,

I had to basically take it to the dump immediately because it was so gross took it up there and even as i was dumping it out i was like almost barfing like it was really fucking gross so if you're a dad out there and you're leaving your lawn for like three weeks don't fucking leave the clippings lying around okay dispose of those things immediately otherwise you're in for some trouble like it's jesus christ you were learning some serious dad lessons about not fucking procrastinating it immediately otherwise you're in for some trouble like it's jesus christ you were learning some serious dad lessons about not fucking procrastinating it sounds like you're procrastinating on the lawn you're procrastinating on throwing the fucking clippings away i've got another tip shit the spider if you ever have some old cardboard right old cardboard and you're

leaving it out the back let's say you've had a delivery of a load of furniture you've got big old boxes you leave the cardboard around the side of the house. I did this last year. Left this cardboard around. I was going to take it to the tip. I forgot. It got rained on. It was in contact with the ground. When I went to move that cardboard,

it was teeming with worms. Oh, my God. They crawl into it and they compost it all up or something. It was disgusting. It smelled appalling. There was literally earthworms raining out of these cardboard boxes. I never seen anything like it yeah they shit

everywhere constantly too but it's like they live in the fucking cardboard i didn't understand it because i guess it's like when it gets wet it's like mulched wood so they fucking love it yeah but they were coming from all around i mean all the whole neighborhood all the neighborhoods worth the worms must have heard there was a fucking party around the side of my house i've got a bunch of cardboard outside my place i missed the fucking pickup today and i'm not here next week oh you've got to get rid of that cardboard like you're gonna have a worm infestation if you're not i am oh fuck me so where so where i live worms not so bad but we get a lot of snails for some reason like tons of of snails. So like when I was mowing the lawn after like three weeks, there were just like these clumps of snails hiding in like the tall grass everywhere and stuff.

Like every once in a while, I'd go over a patch and I'd think like, oh, it's going to be a smooth patch in here. And it's like, oh, shit, I just killed like 50 snails. Like just like accidentally went, oh, I can't see them, right? But they're all hiding down like deep in the grass sort of thing and they just like sort of clump up and like all huddled together so it was like just looked like a battlefield after it was

done like all these like busted up snail shells and snail guts everywhere and oh man. That's probably all those spider webs were oh fuck you know spiders climbing to eat all the dead snail and then slugs too we get quite a few slugs I don't know if it's just like. This is very visceral.

Yeah. And then one time I was outside getting some stuff off the washing line. And I'd let the grass again grow really long. Like, because, fuck, I'm so lazy. Oh, my God. They climbed up the grass onto the washing. No, no. I saw this slug.

And honestly, it was like the size of my foot. It was so fucking huge. I couldn't believe I ran inside. And I was like, told my wife. And she's like, oh, well, okay, we're never going outside again. It's like, there's a huge slug back there. I'm not even kidding. It's gigantic.

Like, and it's just slowly making its way God knows where. But like, I'd say a couple hours at least. Don't go out there until he's moved along. It's like some sort of D&D slime. Where does he go though? Like, where would he even live? I couldn't find like any rabbit size holes anywhere that he might have like gone into

so like I don't know where he goes like he's huge. The size of your foot It was huge it was like orange and black as well it was really disgusting. What the fuck? Yeah. I don't even know I have no idea what you're even if anyone out there knows what this

could be maybe it's a new form of life that's just spawned from your fucking... We're going to need an APB on this slug before it causes some more trouble out there. Sure it's not one of your kids' toys. No, it was not. It was definitely moving. It was a little bit dark outside, so I didn't get a super good look at it,

but it was definitely a slug, and it was definitely alive and moving. Are you sure it wasn't like a toad or something? Like a dying cat or something. No, not like a toad or something like a like a dying cat or something no not like a toad i don't know i don't know if we get big toads like we get like little frogs but i've never seen like a really big toad in jersey because they're fucking hideous like a big toad yeah that is one ugly fucking animal and they can they can be kind of weird orangey brownie colors yeah i think the brighter color they are the more dangerous they

are like that's the nature's way of saying like don't fucking get in my grill because i'm poisonous or whatever jesus christ like you know if they're like neon neon blue or whatever don't go near that frog well there you go i think that is enough for today that was a quite a podcast we covered art and it's a real roller coaster ride this one actually and mowing the lawn it went everywhere

yeah there's some great advice out there I need to go home and get my cardboard sorted out yeah you're going

to be stressing about that all day now jeez yeah thank you for the tip worm fest speed out there

at least maybe a week or two sort that shit out it's going to be out there two weeks more guaranteed. God damn. Get on it.

Maybe I'll see if I can put it in the shed or something. All right. Take it easy, guys. Peace out. Thank you. See you next time. Bye. Bye.