Triforce! - Triforce! #73: Making a Poop Pipe

Episode Date: September 5, 2018

Triforce! Episode 73! Recorded before Pyrion went off to TI8, Triforce is back! Sips loves documentaries about poop pipes, Pyrion loves justice and Lewis loves his ancestors! Music courtesy of Epidemic Sound. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Hi, everybody, and welcome back to the Triforce podcast. This is the last one for the summer, right, boys? Is that right? Yeah, it's like the big summer blowout, this one. It's going to be amazing. Yeah. I'm basically not in the UK for like a month. Well, yeah. And it's hard to link up when people are away and stuff like that. The big summer blowoff.

Yeah. So we're just going to... Kind of like a fart. Like a big summer fart. And also we're blowing off the podcast for the next six weeks because PFLAX is going on holiday. Yeah, it's a very sexual start to the summer. I'm here every week, actually.

And Sips, you're only going away a couple of weeks, but PFLAX is the busy boy taking a proper summer holiday. Yeah, he's a big busy boy, yeah. I'm sorry. Like some sort of happy teacher with a lot of time off making the most of it. I mean, I'm not as busy as i'm not as busy as flax uh like this this august and end of july but still pretty busy like when your kids

are off from school you have to oh my god you have to do stuff right like if they're just sitting around all day at home honestly to me that's like the best but kids kids go stir crazy right they need to be out like they come to me even now we got they're like nine and six so they've had nearly you know between them over a decade if you add together of experience playing with toys and finding stuff to do yeah they're not short of things to do in the house 10 minutes a board and i i remember that as a kid looking at all my things and thinking oh god i'm bored. Like, they only want to play.

Your toys only seem fun when you can play with someone else. It's not often that you find a kid who will happily play with their toys all alone. I always did. I didn't mind because I'm weird. But most people want to interact with other human beings, which is weird. Do you reckon it's more the fact that people want new stuff, though? People always want new stimulation right they want yeah to see something new and exciting like i've got all these games on my steam library i'm sure some of them i'm like would be really good

to play and also like on youtube channels that i watch and and books that i've got but they're not new like for example i don't know like a new book comes out i'm like oh this is new and exciting and you know it's it's new i don't know but when you new book comes out and I'm like, oh, this is new and exciting. And, you know, it's new. I don't know. When you talk to people about it, you're like, oh, did you read the new book? Oh, yeah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I don't know. It feels like it feels like, oh, did you see that movie from five years ago?

They're like, we're only watching that now. What have you been doing? It's like, I don't know. It's automatically got this weird stigma attached to it. And it's just weirdly negative. The other thing about new stuff is that you can almost guarantee that you haven't seen it before as well. True. It's weird that I've watched so much stuff,

and I feel like this might be just me getting old and forgetful, but I don't know what episode or what series of half these series I'm up to. I'm like, have I watched all of Better Call Saul? Have I watched all of Arrested Development? Where am I? How much South Park did I watch? You've got to watch the last 10 minutes of the last episode of last season and be like oh yeah I did watch this I remember now I see that's my problem with um that is the new Red Rising book

I still haven't read it no me neither I started reading it and I was like shit I don't know any of these people like I'm reading the cast list at the start describes all the people there's like three pages it's like several obasa slash the goblin howler husband to victor and i was like should i know who victor is i'm like i can't remember any of these people i'm like the daughter of kvax and niobi should i know them i've just forgotten all of these characters i read those books so fast i just like absorbed them yeah yeah and now i'm trying to start was the um was the sister of the um of that of that super bitch um what was her name again um it's always a super bitch she was she was a super bitch though

remember her um her her mom was like the big trade tycoon mogul. Yeah, like I remember this, but the names are gone. Like my buddy can remember every name of every character. And he'll say to me, did you think so-and-so was blah-blah when so-and-so did so-and-so to so-and-so? I'm like, Jesus, I don't remember any of those. Okay, first of all, I've got a few things. One of them is that, are you going to do this for Bodega, right?

Because it's been a while since Bodega was on the podcast yeah that doesn't bode well for old bodega there's gonna be you're gonna have like a character list at the start you know just as a recap you could do like a prologue you know that's that's one question right which we'll leave hanging second question is like so to what extent i thought all new books when they come out were supposed to be um you weren't supposed to have read the last sometimes it takes like two or three years between books right so you can't i can't remember what happened yesterday let alone two or three years ago when i read i didn't you know what i didn't have that problem with um with the game of thrones series of books though like i i read i read a couple of them and then i had to wait for like some of the some of the newer ones to come out

and i i never had that problem with like the character names or anything i think it came back to you yeah i don't know like i don't know what it was maybe i was just because i was really into it i really enjoyed reading them what if it's because the characters are more more memorable or at least more more kind of i think it's good writing as well one of the things that you don't notice when you're reading a book is they recap stuff in a very subtle way yeah so if a character hasn't appeared for a few chapters they'll drop in a little reminder but they won't say in brackets you remember him from two chapters ago kids you know it's more subtle so they'll mention something they're wearing or they'll remind you of something they're doing in a subtle way so you go oh yes

that guy and i think you gotta you gotta tuck those in there i love the format of a chapter being devoted to a character though and i think that that helped sort of really build up the characters you know like red rising names are good pretty cool character development but it was character development for just a couple of characters right yeah the other the other characters didn't change much but like they like they played their parts and stuff it was all very much around darrow yeah yeah but like in in like the game of thrones series the um the characters all developed a lot didn't they like there was there's a ton of character development for all like the really big characters so this this actually happened to be twice this week. So one I was reading, finally reading, Oathbringer,

which is the latest Stormlight Archive, Brandon Sanderson. So it's the one that Smith got in contact with the author on Twitter, and he sent us a load of early books, and they were hanging around the office, and I was quite angry because I didn't get one. And then I noticed that there was one on the shelf

that no one had actually, someone had obviously not bothered to read. So I took that home when I was reading it. And thing I first thing I realized I didn't remember any of the characters at all because it's been ages it's been like two years and and I couldn't remember anything that happened either I was like what is going on and I said talked to Smith about it and he said I just I was the same just push through it and I was like okay so I pushed through it and actually I'm okay now um because I think that each sometimes these authors do have to write these new books with that in mind that someone might be reading them for the first time.

And sometimes I struggle when I read a new book or it's like a third or fourth book of the series in a line. I struggle getting through those early chapters because it's a little bit rehashing stuff. And I'm like, oh, this must be in here for the people who are, for some reason, picking up book four of the series without reading any of the others. But then I realised it must be because these for the people who are for some reason picking up book four of the series without reading any of the others but then i realized it must be because you know you might these might be just delayed you might just be just delayed on this and it's an important part

and the other thing that happened was i watched started watching the new series of westworld and i couldn't fucking hardly remember i well first of all what westworld series one was even about and like and and any other anything really and I and a lot of people look kind of the same anyway I was a little bit like confused by the whole thing so I went online they do lots of flashbacks in in Westworld but cleverly like it's not a classic thing I'll do is I will a lot of people do this is they'll look up a reddit thread or um a wikipedia article for the book or something and it will have like a prologue written not a prologue, like a synopsis written of the book, and it'll be like,

this happened to this guy, like a kind of blow by blow, a few paragraphs. So I read through that of Westworld, and I was like, I still don't really understand what's going on. And then I've watched this Alt Shift X video. So this is this guy who does like,

he used to do Game of Thrones ones. Every time a Game of Thrones episode, it would be like an episode analysis. Right. And I guess for all the people who didn't watch Game of Thrones or didn't really understand it or or or just wanted to know what had happened so they could talk to people around the water cooler about it you know they could they could watch and catch up and he did a really good like season one of Westworld synopsis and it was like so eye-opening for me like for me like I was

like oh my god I didn't understand any of this show i didn't really watch it i don't know if all of his stuff is bollocks and he's just lying or it's just speculation it's like in english where you massively overanalyze like a book to the point where that it doesn't it's like oh yes the reason that he put in this soliloquy here is because it represents the fray the fragile frame of mind as his mind washes away to a distant place. It's all bollocks. But no, I really enjoyed it. And it actually enhanced it for me as opposed to ruining it. So I started watching the second series.

But he's done a little analysis for every episode. So I watched like an hour of Westworld. Then I watched like 20 minutes of the analysis. But it also means I could be more lazy with my Westworld watching so like because normally I don't really want to pay attention to it I kind of am doing something else at the same time like playing Hearthstone or something or on my phone so it means that I could kind of it takes longer to watch so it's like an hour and a half of TV rather than an hour of TV but I don't have to pay attention for the whole hour do you see what I

mean yeah it's madness so that's what I'm. Do you see what I mean? Yeah. It's madness. So that's what I'm currently doing. That's what I spent this week doing. Reading this, struggling through this book and struggling through Westworld. But I feel like I've been at school a little bit with both of them.

I've like had to do my research. I've had to like work to get through them. Oh my God. I've been watching, okay, Tuesday nights on BBC Two are fucking amazing, by the way. Holy shit.

Like, it's unbelievable. So you're watching terrestrial TV? Like, live? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Live terrestrial TV. Who does that? What year is this? Man, you gotta, okay, well, listen, there's this one show.

It's an hour long, okay? It starts at eight o'clock on BBC Two on a Tuesday, okay? And the show is called Inside the Factory, and it's fucking amazing, okay? Last, on Tuesday, like a couple days ago, the episode was about a toilet paper factory. And you, it's insane how much toilet paper they make, and the process that the toilet paper goes through to be made and stuff. It's nuts. that the toilet paper goes through to be made and stuff it's not so it shows you like uh it shows you factory and how they they they make something from start to finish so like next week i think is

like a like a meat processing plant they're going to show like how like you know they make a million you know processed hot dogs or sausages a day or whatever and then previous ones they had coffee a coffee one was pretty interesting like it shows it shows you previous ones they had coffee the coffee one was pretty interesting like it shows it shows you like how they get the the beans in raw and then what they do to them this sounds amazing yeah yeah it's nuts there was like this huge freezer that the coffee goes through and then it it forms like a sheet of very thin solid, right? But it's like, it's like freeze dried. So then it's like a frozen chocolate bar. Yeah, but it's like super, it's like minus 60 or something.

It goes through the whole part of the factory that's frozen and it freezes into the sheet. And then they smash it up into like little granules. And then they evaporate all of the, like the moisture out so that there's no, you know, cause it's like frozen or whatever. And then they put it into the, then they putate all of the like the moisture out so that there's no, you know, because it's like frozen or whatever. And then they put it into the then they put it into like because it's like instant coffee. Right. It's just like like Nabob or like Nescafe or whatever stuff. And then they put it into the jar. But it doesn't smell like anything because it's like all freeze dried, you know, like ready to go to the moon coffee, like, you know, instant coffee.

So they have this huge cylinder that has the aroma of the beans originally for when they roasted it. And so they capture the aroma inside this huge, this huge canister. And then before they seal the can of instant coffee up to be like, you know ready for to sell or whatever they just like blast a little like puff of coffee aroma into the thing so so that when you open it it smells like coffee because otherwise it wouldn't it's amazing that's weirdly reassuring right because i thought it was going to be much more like that aroma i knew they pumped the smell in but i thought that was smell was just chemicals yeah no it's absolutely insane and they have all these different roasters for like the different blends

and stuff and fuck me and the factory is enormous like you're like you're talking this thing pumps out something insane like 50 000 jars of instant coffee a day or something so it's just like it gets this massive shipment of beans in and then it's got this fucking whole goddamn room filled with roasters and then it goes on to this belt and there's washed and oh fuck it's it's incredible it's it's such an interesting show i highly recommend it the toilet paper one was nuts too it was crazy i remember you used to watch stuff on youtube because there was a classic like um show of like like like it felt a little bit like um that that that japanese show where the marbles like roll down and stuff um petagora suichi which is quite interesting if you watch

that it's like um like these rube goldberg oh yeah machines that just automatically do stuff they're really interesting but you sometimes there used to be all this stuff on youtube Oh, yeah. trees that just like these these dumb machines so i was walking around it was the bristol harbor festival the weekend and my parents and i walked around and had a nice time and we walked around the old um it's called underfall yard which sounds like a terrifying kind of it sounds like something where a body was found world of warcraft sounds like a sherlock holmesian sounds like the undead starting area for world of Warcraft. People would be murdered. But actually, it was kind of like this area where they used to do a lot of canal maintenance

and have this sort of old-school factory. And so they have, on the top of the rooms, they have these spinning wheels with long joists between them and and that's like the electricity but basically so all of the machines that they used all the printing machines the stamping machines all these crazy machines were all powered by wheel this wheel um and it was obviously just this just belt driven stuff right so you'd have this these these these wheels on the top of the the room and what you do is you hook up a belt to one of those, and rather than running electrical cables,

you run an actual rubber belt down onto this machine. There's a model of that at the British Science Museum in London. Holy crap. There's a big working model in a glass box, and you push a button and you can see this loom is running off. And like you said, it's literally, before they had electrical cables, you just tied on to some moving band and that provided the energy that you needed so yeah it's like these wheels are spinning at the top of the room and you just

hook up your rubber band to them and power your machine whatever machine how many accidents there would have been i know people reaching up ah, just getting caught in the thing. He's zipping around the top of the room. It's got Tony! Tony! Go live! It's all caught up in the loom again! But in a sense, like, it was terrifyingly scary, but in a kind of approachable way, right?

So this thing is, like, stamping fucking pieces of, you know, cast metal out of a plate or whatever, like making coins, basically. It's, like, stamping coins basically it's like stamping coins it's this terrifying thing with this huge you can see see like oh my god if you put a hand in there it could go straight through your hand if you like all those factory things can i recommend and this this goes for the the listeners at home um if you google this is hormel h-o-r-m-e-l hormel is like a brand of um coffee. They make meat and stuff like that.

It's a 1965 film. It's about a half hour long, made to show how everything is made in the Hormel factory. 1965 meat processing. It is unbelievable. There's a guy smoking and saying, we only use the best cuts. Exactly.

And there's literally that bit in The Simpsons where they go, it's always Troy McClure with Timmy or Jimmy. He goes, now to the killing floor, Jimmy. You know, and they show how they get the meat. It's just like that. It's got these two real funky looking young lads are like, meet Billy and Tommy. Billy and Tommy want to know more about how chili is made here at Hormel.

Well, Billy and Tommy, it's your lucky day. And they, you know, it shows them all the hot dogs, like the hot dogs being plowed out of this machine, just like shooting out like missiles. People manually wrapping them and stuff. Yeah, all that kind of shit. It's like, now we can the chili. Pasteurized, of course, Jimmy.

And Jimmy's like, I don't know what the fuck you're talking about. We don't use hairnets here because those are for pussies. Smoking over the production line is normal and encouraged. It's literally that. But it's fantastic. If one of the sausages has a bit of dirt on it, just use a bit of your spit and clean it off.

Stop being such a pussy. Rats are actually very nutritious, Jimmy. If any rats fall into the blender, that's extra dinner. Well, listen, I was still talking about Tuesday night on BBC2 because it gets better. There's Inside the Factory, which is fantastic. I'm delighted with your recommendation.

And can I just say, nothing. All right, fine. You carry on. You got to catch up, though, because you've missed a couple of Inside the Factories. But crucially, you've also missed two episodes of possibly the best documentary I've ever seen in my entire life. It's incredible. It's so fucking interesting, okay? So I don't know if you've heard about this,

but in London right now, I'm sure it's still happening right now, they are building a gigantic shit pipe underneath the Thames River, okay? They're excavating underneath the thames river okay and they're building yeah the super it costs five billion pounds to build this thing okay five billion pounds so the reason is in the in in the victorian times uh they had this huge problem with uh sewage going out into the Thames and there was an outbreak of cholera, like thousands of people died. There was like a big panic. And then basically Westminster turned around and said, well, fuck, we can't keep pumping shit into the Thames. It's going to kill everybody. We need a solution. So they got this like, you know, grand Victorian engineer designer guy in and he designed a

sewage system. Right. And it's all hand laid bricks. You know, this beautiful Victorian sewage system underneath the city. At the time when it was designed, it was to cater for two million people. Right. So the way that it worked was it had it had pumps that pumped the sewage towards a like a processing plant which was this other like beautiful victorian building that had aka

the hormel meat factory but pretty much the equivalent okay um but around that area because because the entire sewage system of london is so overtaxed because there's now like nine million people living there um the way that the sewage system was designed was that it would process as much as it could and anything that it couldn't instead of it overflowing up into the streets and killing everybody and making people sick and stuff uh the overflow was to go into the thames right so every day the overflow is like hit instantly and all of like all this shit is just going into the thames again right? So every day the overflow is like hit instantly. And all of like all this shit is just going into the Thames again, right? Like it's like, like at an alarming rate. So they-

But not like, not in the middle of London. Like it's probably dumping it further downstream. But I've been down the Thames. A little bit, yeah. On a boat. And it's not like it's just teeming with sewage. No, no, no. But it's, it's pretty bad.

Like, I mean, it's, it's a fairly large body of water. So like a lot of it's not like it's just teeming with sewage no no no but it's it's pretty bad like i mean it's it's a fairly large body of water so like a lot of it'll be like dispersed out and stuff but there's there's a lot of junk in there and basically they can't they can't keep doing it the way that they are because it's just gonna it's just gonna start causing more and more problems so they've got the super sewer going in and um the way that they've done it because the the current plant the current processing plant is is completely overburdened as well. It can't handle it. It's, you know, it was built like 150 years ago. It just wasn't designed for the volumes of today sort of thing.

This modern shit is unbearable. But the whole area just is like, it's fucking disgusting. There's like, you know, like maxi pads and shit floating around in like the river. These are things they didn't have to deal with back then. Wet wipes, nappies. They've got wet wipes everywhere. Like, oh, it's so gross. So anyway, they've got this massive, massive plant on the other side, like the far east end of London.

They got like one of the biggest sewage processing plants in Europe set up. But there's not enough of the sewage system is, is hooked up to it. So the idea is that this massive shit pipe is going to be underneath the Thames. And what it's going to do is it's going to take all of the overflow of like the, you know, 150 year old Victorian sewage system instead of dumping it into the river. Right. So all this shit is going to travel down the shit pipe all along, like underneath the Thamesames and it's going to get to this new processing station. But because it's so deep underground, like it's, you know, it's, it's below the Thames, right? It's like, it's, you know, fucking 50, it's like, it's like 90 meters

underground. It's like super fucking deep. So they have these massive, massive pumps that pump all of the shit, like back up to the surface basically into this processing plant holy shit guys it's fucking amazing like it is fucking awesome it's such an interesting documentary like it shows you like some of the history stuff shows you all these guys just like busting their ass building stuff it shows you like all these people in london who just like i moved here 20 years ago and this is too noisy. And like Patrick Stewart's on it like saying like, we don't agree with this pump. We don't agree with this pump. There's like a ton of opposition to it.

Oh, but it's got everything. It's just like the best drama you've ever seen. It's so fucking good. Yeah, it's really good. I can't remember the name of it though. Me and my wife just call it the shit pipe show. But I think it's called like the 5 billion pound super sewer or something like that. remember the name of it though me and me and my wife just call it the shit pipe show but yeah um i think it's called like the five billion pound super sewer or something like that it's on bbc2

and there's been two episodes so far they've both been super fucking interesting i highly recommend it oh my god the engineering is incredible like it's fucking crazy complete change of pace in terms of show but i just finished watching the staircase i don't know if you guys have been following that at all on netflix yeah yeah i watched it all so that's like um i'm not going to give any spoilers away or anything like that but basically it's it follows this guy he's accused of killing his wife shawshank redemption no no it's it's it's more like um it's not like making a murderer where you feel like it's such a grimy life that this guy leads anyway and he's such a a nut life that this guy leads anyway and he's such a a nut and everything and the police obviously hate him this is more like when the

police look at the evidence and come to a conclusion and that's the conclusion like you know they even make the evidence come to the conclusion that they want and a lot of miss like not mistrial stuff but things that you think how is that not prejudicial like they just you know when when you get evidence for the prosecution you have to give it all to the defense as well. So they have to see what you're going to. There's no, oh, and this is the knife. You know, they just appear with it sort of thing. If you're going to use it in the court case, you have to show it to the opposition and vice versa.

The defense has to give everything to the prosecution. So everybody gets a chance to look at the evidence and say, and to formulate a counter to it or to analyze it. Yeah. So the case is this guy was outside with his wife by the pool. They're hanging out. They're having a few glasses of wine. She goes inside. He then comes inside and finds her dead at the foot of the stairs,

blood everywhere. And her head's all like fucked up. And there's loads of lacerations and everything. The police arrive. They arrest him for murder. He's out on bail. And it's like the trial. So it's all the buildup to the trial with all these lawyers and everything that they get in, you know, they arrest him for murder. He's out on bail and it's like the trial.

So it's all the buildup to the trial with all these lawyers and everything that they get in, you know, to defend him. He blows through a ton of money doing this. It's very expensive defending yourself like this. And his family sort of stands by him and everything like that. And everything's going along. You know, you kind of you're on this guy's side. He's a bit of a strange guy, but it seems conceivable he didn't do it. But he could have done it.

And then this bombshell comes out. He could have, but then the bombshell comes out that about 15 years previously, when he was living in Germany, another woman that he knew was found dead at the bottom of the stairs. And now the prosecution's like, oh shit, this guy's like, he's like the Bristol Pusher, but with stairs, right?

So the court goes to trial and all the rest of it but but there's there's so much evidence and you get to know the characters so well this film crew this french film crew followed him for like years over the course of this trial and everything afterwards and all the rest of it but what i didn't realize until as soon as the show finished i went and looked it up on wikipedia and articles and stuff about it and there's one theory that they didn't make a big deal about that his neighbor who was also an an attorney, came up with having looked at the evidence. One of the things that was found in the evidence sheet, and this is no spoiler because it wasn't covered in the show, is possible attack by an owl or large bird of prey. And the evidence for it is, first of all, she was found with feathers.

There was a couple of tiny feathers on her and she had pine needles on her hands as if she'd fallen over outside before she'd gone inside there was blood on the door as if she'd went as if she'd been attacked outside and then gone inside and if you look at the lacerations on the back of her head they show it all through the show like this diagram of the lacerations it's like in these two this this pair of three stripes just like three claws and apparently giant owls do attack people in that area and i'm like i guess the defense didn't go with it because on the one hand you have the prosecution saying this man clearly killed his wife he's a he's got a double life as a bisexual which he did and all this kind of stuff or the defense saying it was an owl but i thought it was interesting that it was there it was a possible theory i had no idea about that it was crazy so it's one of these shows, right, that Netflix has done

partly because of the success, I think, of Making a Murderer and these real crime things, right? Absolutely. So you don't know whether he did it or not because it's real, right? You don't know.

We're never going to know whether he did it or not unless he confesses on his deathbed or doesn't. Who knows? Like, well, that's... But even you could take that with a pinch of salt.

It's one of these things where it hasn't, in a sense, got a satisfying conclusion. You kind of have to make up your own mind. And it's weirdly nice, but also, I don't know, unsatisfying ultimately, because you just sort of... I think it's also like making a murder. It's a window into the way the justice system works. And it's interesting because I'm also reading a book called The Secret Barrister, I think Secret or Hidden or something barrister, which is I don't know.

I can't remember if I mentioned it on a previous podcast. It's about the British justice system from the perspective of a barrister. And he talks about how the courts work and everything like that. and he talks about how the courts work and everything like that. And most of these guys, they have a very, very big sort of attachment to the idea of justice. Whether you're a prosecuting or defending, you want justice to be done in the court of law. And that's why it's all laid out so structurally and so complicated, is because after years and years, it's like the evolution of the law to this point where, you know, everybody should get a fair trial and this is obviously prejudicial so you can't include it and this precedent was an important

one and it meant you can't do this and you can't do that and all the rest of it but then the problem is into that system you also put the police and people that make money from things the police do so one of the things you have is these agencies that gather evidence and process it they're private enterprises and the police come to them and say, can you please run through this evidence? We're looking for bloodstains that the killer should have on there. And a lot of the time they want to give the police the right result that the police want. Not the just result, not the actual result, but the result they know the police want. And I think in both making a murderer and staircase, you see that the police are so desperate to convict this guy because they don't want to say oh we got the wrong guy yeah they want to nail this guy yeah because

they're given these targets if you've got a case and you lose it that's going to look real bad and now the case is open you've got to find who did it and all the rest of it yeah if they find a guy that's close enough they're like fuck it we're nailing it on this guy and i want the evidence to show that and they go and get people that will get them the evidence and that motive is super bad they're bizarrely stubborn they are very stubborn in the face of that as well like they're like

new stuff comes along and like you expect them to be like oh like when you watch CSI you know people they're always like this must be this guy

and then some evidence comes along they're like actually no it must be this guy then but with these cases it seems with almost all of these cases they get a target in mind

and they get fixated and they cannot think it's possibly anyone else. Yeah, it's scary. To the point where they give up investigating every other avenue and just focus on

everything that will convict this guy. To the point where they don't even want to start investigating other avenues because they think it might reveal something

that causes more problems for them. Go on, sis. The way that it works, though, is that I think they go with the simplest thing first

because nine times out of ten, that is what's happened. Like the simplest possible thing has happened, right? The most likely person to kill their partner is the other person.

It's like your husband's killed wives, wife's killed husband. That's standard. And so their line of investigating and questioning is around the motives behind that. And normally they can find those pretty quickly. They can find little cracks in the relationship or they can find little character flaws or things that they can use to convince a jury to say this person isn't who he's claiming to be you know he's he's claiming to be um you know like a a husband but he's got a like another life or you know like they'll they'll discredit him where they can to sort of paint this picture that you know quite simply this person had some motive to do this and and he's done it And that's the simple, simple solution to this sort of thing.

And you know what I think the weirdest thing about it all, though, is they put all this case together. They do all this work, both the defense and the prosecution. It's like years of work. And then basically they let 12 yahoos decide and they just get this fucking jury in there. And these guys are looking bored out of their mind. They just want to go home. Yeah. They've already made up their mind.

Like more often than not, it's one piece of evidence that they just bored out of their mind. They just want to go home. Yeah. They've already made up their mind. Like more often than not, it's one piece of evidence that they just get stuck in their head and you need to get it either your bit of evidence stuck in their head and or stop the other guys getting stuck in their head. Like that's it. Yeah. Like it almost always comes down to, well,

I wasn't sure, but that one thing that he said that that was it for me. It's like, what's you just make it up your own mind. You're not listening to the evidence. You hear a couple of things together. Yeah, it probably did it. But it's like what's you just make it up your own mind you're not listening to the evidence you hear a couple things you go yeah it probably did it but it's like the whole point is if there's a beyond a reasonable doubt i don't think the judge ever explains to people quite how doubtful you can be even a little bit of a doubt if it's reasonable don't convict the guy we don't

want to send innocent people to prison no that's my greatest fear is being convicted of something that i'm innocent for like if i if i'm guilty and you go to trial you have nothing to lose you have nothing to lose if you're innocent and you're at trial and you you have everything to lose and it could hinge on one person saying in the in the in the jury chambers you know what guys let's all go home let's get this over with i think he did it hands up who did it if they're a strong enough personality you're fucked yeah regardless of the evidence it's terrifying i think everyone who goes to the jury should have to sit down for two hours and watch 12 angry men before they do anything i would genuinely rather be tried by just the judge and leave the jury out of it i think the jury is an absolute gamble i think it's

the fairest system but you're you're again you're depending on 12 people like, you know, in the OJ trial. It went on for so fucking long. And these people were away from their families. And, you know, at first it was a bit like, oh, this is fun. You know, we're in a hotel and stuff. We're on a jury for like this high profile case and stuff. But in the end, every single one of them was so fucking like pissed off at being there. They didn't want to be there anymore

it went on for too long and i think you lose your your like a bit of like your humanity and your compassion and stuff right because you you're you're at a breaking point personally where you're just like i have i have to get out of this fucking situation prosecutors count on that right sometimes well they do yeah and that's where and that's where it's that's where the system kind of in my opinion breaks down a little bit especially like the sort of like uh tampering of the jury as well you know like when they say they go through jury selection and then they reject somebody in the journey that's the weirdest thing like you you don't you don't reject somebody from this system that's kind of fair because you want to

profile and get somebody that you think is going to help your side more yeah it doesn't work that way like it's it's so stupid that they can do that in the first place that makes no sense you can understand why like you know they might if it's a black defendant or whatever they might want to get rid of that redneck hillbilly kind of you know i can understand that it works both ways but it's stupid it shouldn't be allowed you know like it should just be randomly 12 people in you go here are the facts let's let's wrap this up yeah so here's here's a question for you sips you're you're on a train and there are 12 random people in that train carriage and they have to decide between

them whether you go to prison or not it's that crazy yeah like i'm on the public transport and i look around i can't pick 12 people that i would trust with potentially my life in prison or my life of freedom i think that watching these shows has made me think holy shit these juries so sometimes you see little interviews with them and they ask the dumbest questions or say the dumbest things it's like they're not bright i mean because here's where the jury but here's where the jury gets selected from people that have fuck all to do you can get if you're smart and have a really good job you can just say i can't do this because i'm a doctor or whatever or i'm a scientist i'm just around the house all day so fuck it i don't want that guy deciding i want the doctors

and the lawyers to decide at the same time if you're an actual if you want an actual career you can't say to your boss oh i need to take two months off to potentially do it yeah exactly like you know you'll come back and they won't have a job anymore all the smartest and the best people get out of jury duty it's the dregs of society that sit on that bench and they're the ones deciding i'm terrified of going before any kind of trial that's why i'm so careful not to do anything even remotely illegal because especially in america you get caught in the system they'll pin everything on you man i'm terrified whenever and it does feel like for example a friend of mine was on jury duty relatively recently and also my mom was on jury

duty relatively recently and they had a good time they said it was very boring there was a lot waiting around a lot of reading books and stuff yeah it was very slow and very the boreas and and it ended up i think the situation that my mom had was that they were very split down the middle on whether this guy had done it or not and eventually they agreed to just give him a me middle charge and i was like what the fuck are you talking about how is that justice like you know he either did it or he didn't you can't just say you know it's like oh he he didn't he either did a murder or he didn't and let's just give him an assault it's like what do you mean you can't just put someone in prison again though like you you gotta let you got you have to weigh it up it's never like that clear cut right this could be somebody with no history whatsoever of

violence or anything you know it could have been like a mistake it could have just been like a you know bad judgment call or something it's still breaking the law but you can't you can't punish um you can't punish somebody who isn't like a career criminal if you like in the same way that you, you need to punish people who absolutely just belong in jail. Like they have no redeemable qualities for society whatsoever. Right. You know, like these hardened, aggressive criminals that just spend their whole lives, you know, beating the shit out of people or, or just causing chaos when they're outside of jail. And then they go in jail and they do the same thing pretty much you know what i mean you can't you can't get you can't get like a guy who has a pocket protector and a 30 year career in in finance who accidentally you know ran over his wife or something and lock

him up and put him in the same cage as as you know a guy that has spent the past 20 years jugging everybody in the jail relentlessly because it it has the adverse effect right like that person is meant to go in and and think about what he's done and and try to better himself through that process or whatever if you put him into a into a jail with you know all of these other assholes who don't care whether they're there or not sort of thing he's just going to come out like a traumatized twisted human being isn't he's already like you know broken the law and had to go to jail sort of thing so like it's i don't think it's as clear-cut as that i think like sometimes when they give a medium sentence or whatever there's probably a pretty good reason behind it right but if they're

like not sure i would hope that they would realize that not sure is enough to acquit like if you're just not a hundred percent don't send someone to prison don't be like ah i that not sure is enough to acquit. Like, if you're just not 100%, don't send someone to prison. Don't be like, ah, I'm not sure, so let's just give them 10 years. It's like, no, you should give them zero years. Like, the idea of sending innocent people or people who could really conceivably be innocent to jail because you're just not sure is a terrible idea. It's a terrible idea. But it happens fairly often. It's awful, but it ruins lives.

To these people, it's like, oh, it's only 10. Because the thing is, if they say the maximum sentence is 80 years, and you only give them 10, you're like, well, I've done them a favor. It's one eighth of the maximum. Oh, my God. 10 years in prison, imagine that. Your life is ruined. But, of course, PFLEX, don't forget,

there's always the alternative that they get off it, and then they kill someone else and then that ruins just as many lives. It's a very, very difficult subject. It's a very, very awkward situation to be in. No, you can't go by that logic because that means anyone in the dock for anything, you better not take a chance.

Innocent until proven guilty. Proven guilty. I know, I agree with you. Not innocent until you think he might have done it and we'll bang him up anyway people have that mindset that i just stated which is that you know we can't risk it you know it's an awful they need to they need to make sure people understand i think in order to serve on jury you have to spend 10 years in prison that's the solution you'd never lock anyone up again i think they just need to do a little bit more research

into the people that they're convicting like there should just be a checklist okay so basically have you ever been found with something shoved up your butt in an in an attempt to you know mule it into prison or or whatever yes okay do you fuck bicycles and or the yeah yeah there should just be a checklist of things where it's like, okay, hang on. Yes, this person does belong in jail, actually, okay? Like, your regular person doesn't have the, you know, capacity to shove something up their... How much anime has this person watched? Yeah, there's certain things, right?

See, that would be the thing. If I'm on the jury and some guy comes in and he's got a fucking body pillow, motherfucker's going to jail. Yeah, absolutely. I think they need to take some of that stuff into account as well but like flax said if the glove doesn't fit you must acquit like it's it they can't just send everybody to jail just for safety right like because where where will it ever end you know people innocent people will be spending a lot of time in jail and we don't want a lot of people in jail while they're deciding

whether you're going to go to jail, you're in jail. I know. Yeah. That's really scary. Like even being in jail, and I was watching a show about it. The way it works is they have like a sort of holding jail before they send you to, they either let you go or send you to the penitentiary or whatever. This is in America.

I don't know. I think it's the same over here. But they chuck everyone in that weight in jail. Like that's one of the most dangerous ones. Yeah, yeah. And depending on what you're in there for as well. You know, if somebody's falsely accused you of being like a pedophile or something,

you don't want to be spending any fucking time in jail. Like, if anyone finds out that that's what you're potentially in there for, you're fucking dead. And there are a lot of guys in prison that want to know what you did. Yeah, there's like a prison... they're like he likes anime he keeps talking about kids let's jog let's get the job it's junk junk it goes down tonight larry 11 o'clock we're gonna chug that motherfucker exactly you're trying to do everything it's a parking fine please oh fuck me

I honestly really like all of this stuff I love seeing crime I love hearing about crimes I love watching this stuff it's so kind of difficult but also it does make you realise because there's the classic problem nowadays of everyone expects all cases

to have CSI level evidence well that's it that's the other thing i was going to say about juries you got to remember that most of these people their only experience of justice and like the and the systems of law and stuff is literally watching the bill or like yeah csi miami or whatever which is you know it's i'm sure like some of it might be kind of realistic but it's so overly dramatized. It's great when someone robs a shop and they've got them on camera with a gun.

You know, that's pretty cut and dry, right? I don't think you even need a jury for that. But a lot of the DNA evidence, like I was watching a thing, there was a documentary about it, about can we actually trust DNA evidence like as much as we do? And a lot of the tests are very badly carried out. The evidence is badly handled, but the result comes out as yeah he had dna on him but it's like until you've been in jail for a few years and then they reopen the case they're like oh actually sorry uh that we fucked up it's like people put so much faith in it because on csi they're always right grissom is

always right right grissom grissom says no i found some coca-cola evidence on his sleeve the only way he could have got there is if he bashed that guy to death with a can of Coke. They're like, bingo. Yeah. The Coca-Cola DNA registered trademark. Obviously, you know, deciding factor that the juries watch CSI and they think, yeah, 100 percent. He had that. Well, yeah, because they've got this wizard investigator who's never wrong and, you know, can fucking get all this stuff from outside of the box and just be like well what if let me float

this one past you what if larry here had what if i told you he had a drop of coca-cola on his sleeve and then he's like all right i did it i did it god damn it i wanted that coke real bad they just confess exactly like yeah they just break down crying and but in the uk what i didn't realize is that it's mainly magistrates and so what a magistrate get this this is again from the the secret barrister book very interesting book by the way in the uk you have the crown prosecution service which is what decides if we're going to go to trial or not so it's always the crown like the queen basically versus whoever you know is accused but most of these cases don't get handled in like a higher court they're handled at the magistrate

level and that's like your local court magistrate's court you go down there you have your lawyer and he instructs a barrister who defends you and more often than not the barrister has found this case file 10 minutes before the hearing it's thrust into his hands he has to read it there's all kinds of shit missing because the cps is is fucking horribly underfunded and there's a disaster sometimes he has to turn up and say we don't have the evidence so they have to go back and do it a new few weeks later get all the witnesses ready and everything like that the other problem is a lot of people who say i'll come to court and help you never do it again because it's such an awful system and they have

to come up they have to skip work they can't go on holiday if they're required in court they have to be there legally so it's like sometimes the court case drags on for months because they're waiting on this evidence or they're waiting on this or they've got to go and get that and you have to be available for the court case at the drop of a hat so most people that are involved in the justice system in any way not in not in a criminal way but as a witness or something like that never never want to do it again because it was it's such it's so horribly mishandled and then worst of all the deciding factor in the magistrate's court is not a jury it's the fucking magistrate and the guy gives an example of this court case this guy yeah he was a bit of an arsehole but he was like 17 and he's up there on the stand he's

acting very belligerently the magistrates are pleading with him if you can please come around if you'll do the probation we won't we don't want to impose a custodial sentence and his mum is there pleading with him and his lawyer and everything even the prosecution barrister is like we are happy for him to do the community service we want him to get better we don't want to send him to jail he breaks down in the dock he's like okay i need help and all the rest of it everybody's like tearing up in the courtroom magistrates go back to decide what's going to happen and the judges you know the the barrister is like they're going to give you community service all the rest of no problem magistrates come out after a 15 minute meeting and say we're sending him to jail

they just fucking decided like everybody in the court had settled on the idea this guy is not going to jail magistrates were the ones who proposed it, went back. Something, some conversation happened. They come back out, fucking lock him up. I'm like, what? And here's the thing. The people that are magistrates are not lawyers. They have no legal experience.

You just have to apply. Any of us could be a magistrate. All you have to do is demonstrate that you've done quite a lot of volunteer work in the last few years. Bingo. You're a magistrate. But if you're the guy that gets got cut off community service, does that count? So could he have got community service off a magistrate, done a lot, and then come back and become a magistrate?

I don't think so, but that would be great. I've done 15,000 hours of community service. That's all volunteer work, isn't it? But yeah, that's it. My wife's step-uncle or half-uncle, I don't know how my wife's, her sort of step uncle or half uncle, I don't know how you put it. He was a lawyer. He applied to be a magistrate and they turned him down

because he hadn't done any volunteer work. They were like, you haven't done enough. Like if you volunteer at fucking one of the charity shops or whatever. Pro bono. Yeah. No, not even pro bono, which is one of my favorite terms. You could just, if you've done voluntary work quite a bit in the last couple years bingo you're probably going to make it as a magistrate but if you have legal experience they're probably gonna go nah like that's it these are the guys deciding

your your fucking future it's just some yahoos who happen to help out down at sue rider you know what's crazy too the knock-on effect of of actually going to jail and stuff like especially if you're wrongly convicted or whatever your whole life is ruined like it's impossible to to travel it's impossible to fucking get another job it's impossible to be seen as like a a normal person in the eyes of like people around you yeah that's it you were convicted of something and therefore everybody views you differently and your your life is never going to be the same again so it's it's pretty fucking dangerous stuff and what's your defense you're gonna say i didn't do it it was i'm innocent everyone got oh yeah sure innocent i think honestly like watching all these shows has made me if anything very scared to even be

vaguely associated with any kind of crime or criminal action yeah well that's why you got to stop downloading torrents and stuff because that's another thing you don't want to be in jail for. If they find out that you're in there because you've been illegally downloading software on the internet, you're getting jugged for sure. You're getting fucking jugged. You're going to get relentlessly jugged. Not even one jugging a day.

I'm talking, they'll jug you and you'll be like, oh, fuck, I can't believe I've just been jugged. I'm so glad that's over. And boom another jug straight away before we go this is for hollywood you the holy um holy english nice kind of friendly tv i've been watching on bbc lately is um uh who do you think you are oh i did i watched a bit of that last night with Boy George. Did you see that? So, yeah. Well, I've watched one with Lee Mack in it, who I like.

Okay, yeah. And obviously, it's kind of a, it's always like a weird tearjerker, right? It's people find out about their ancestors who are long dead, right? Yeah. But they have, they find out these things. And these things tend to be marriages and birth certificates and death certificates certificates right and so it's like yeah of course like he had a kid and he died and then he died and then it's like yeah and his kid then died and then his kid then died and so as a result like it's like oh that's so

sad oh it's so sad that my great-great-great-granddad died I was so sad to my great-great-great-great-granddad died and it's like they start tearing up for no good reason and it's like fucking hell it's like the how to make celebrities cry about stuff that they didn't know about until 10 or didn't even really care about until there was a paycheck and a camera involved so i'm a bit cynical about it but i do like some of it so i liked i like i like the how it like, Lee's looking for his great aunt who was once a seamstress in Turkey.

He's come to Turkey to see if there's any records of her. Do you have any records of my great aunt? Oh, yes. Well, if you look in here, we've found in the records that your great aunt was actually a seamstress in Turkey. Oh, she died, though. This is the death certificate. Yes, she died. Okay okay i'm very sad about

that she was 95 years old she lived a very full life i'm still crying and i don't know why i don't know it's very much like um i like it right and the boy george one was pretty sad though his his his grandmother was um in dublin at in like 1910 okay and 1910 dublin was it had like one of the biggest slums in the world like a lot of unemployed poor people and uh the nspcc in in the day were like known as as child snatchers because basically they go around and because they lived in these really small tenements like eight people to a basically a bed sit sort of thing so lots of people were outside all the time because nobody wanted to fucking be in in there right so there's a lot of kids just running around in the streets and stuff like because because why not you know you

might as well like if your whole neighborhood is outside you might as well just be out there too so his his his his grandmother um was like basically picked up off the street just standing outside of her house at the age of six the nspcc just like rolled up and they're like what are you doing she's like um i'm just outside they're like come with us let's just like send her off to this fucking um like industrial school is what they called them at the time. And that was it. The rest of her life was just living with like nuns who were nuns. And yeah, she just like had this shit childhood as a result sort of thing. We really don't necessarily know that it was shit.

You know, I suppose we can have some pictures and ideas, but, you know, we don't know whether these people were happy or sad. No, I mean, she never spoke about her childhood though which is the giveaway anytime anyone asked her she was like i don't want to talk about it so i think it's pretty bad i don't mind unless it was just so fucking awesome that she just doesn't want to be seen as bragging but i think i'll go with the other oh man the other side the other side's more likely, I suppose. All right, all right. But the one I liked, I mean, I like the ones that are more recent, right? That are actually like, rather than the ones that go back ages. Because Danny Dyer did one where he went back and found out that he was

distantly related to about, I think about 25 generations. To Hitler. No. Jesus. To like a 13th century... Are you saying that Hitler was my great-grandpappy? But you know what? We've got to cut the cameras.

He died? Oh. Grandad. Poor grandad. How did he go? Lee has travelled to Berlin to find out my great grandad killed himself

and his wife and six million people I don't know why I'm crying why am I crying okay I think that's a good place to stop the podcast oh my god thank you everyone for Okay, I think that's a good place to stop the podcast.

Oh, my God. Thank you, everyone, for listening to Tri-Force this week. We're going to go. Thank you for joining us. Have a great summer, everybody. Yeah, have a good summer, you bastards. All right. Thanks, everyone. Love to you all.

Bye. bastards. Alright, thanks everyone. Love to y'all. Bye!