TRIGGERnometry - Abigail Shrier: "The Trans Issue Shouldn't Be Political"

Episode Date: January 24, 2021

Abigail Shrier is a journalist and author of Irreversible Damage: The Transgender Craze Seducing Our Daughters. Join our exclusive community on Locals! https://triggernometry.locals.com/  OR Support TRIGGERnometry Here: Paypal: https://bit.ly/2Tnz8yq https://www.subscribestar.com/triggernometry https://www.patreon.com/triggerpod Buy Merch Here: https://www.triggerpod.co.uk/shop/ Join the Mailing List: https://www.triggerpod.co.uk/sign-up/ Find TRIGGERnometry on Social Media:  https://twitter.com/triggerpod https://www.facebook.com/triggerpod https://www.instagram.com/triggerpod About TRIGGERnometry:  Stand-up comedians Konstantin Kisin (@konstantinkisin) and Francis Foster (@francisjfoster) make sense of politics, economics, free speech, AI, drug policy and WW3 with the help of presidential advisors, renowned economists, award-winning journalists, controversial writers, leading scientists and notorious comedians. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hello and welcome to Trigonometry. I'm Francis Foster. I'm Constance and Kissen. And this is a show for you if you want honest conversations with fascinating people. Our brilliant guest today is the author of Irreversible Damage, the transgender craze that is seducing our daughters. Abigail Shriar, welcome to Trigonometry. Oh, thank you so much for having me on. It is a great pleasure to have you on. Francis and I both read your book. I was going to say it was a great pleasure reading the book, but I actually would say it was a great horror reading the book because it's very, it's very good. difficult to read because you weave the stories of individual people together with the scientific

data, together with the broader societal issues. But the personal stories, particularly of families have been torn apart by this stuff, are very difficult to read and very moving. And Francis and I have been talking to people for a long time about this. We've had trans guests on the show to talk about it. We've had people like Posey Parker on the show as well. And we really, when we dived into it, It was very sort of like, why are people talking about this stuff? Like, what's going on? Why is it important? We didn't really understand it.

We didn't really know about it. And I think your book brings to the fore the real world impact of politicizing this issue. So tell people who haven't yet read the book, and I really recommend everybody does. Why did you write this book? Well, I wrote this book because in the last decade, there's been an explosion of young women, teenage girls, who suddenly identify as transgender. often with their friends and want hormones and surgeries and are easily obtaining them. And the reason this is significant is we've had something called gender dysphoria,

which is the severe discomfort in one's biological sex. That's something we've known about and had a 100-year diagnostic history of. So we know what it looks like. And it doesn't look like this. We've never, we've never seen before young teenage girls. This was always something that afflicted little boys and men, never teenage girls. and now teenage girls out of nowhere are the leading demographic. So whenever you see something like that,

it's worth asking why, what's going on here? And that's all my book sought to do. And it's something that your book explores brilliantly and incredibly powerfully. But let's start right at the very beginning then. Why is it that we're seeing this explosion of young girls, prepubescent and pubescent girls wanting to transition? Well, the way to see this is it's one part of a larger mental health crisis. facing teenagers generally and teenage girls most acutely. We know that teenage girls are

even tween girls, so girls who haven't yet reached teenage years but are in the very beginning of adolescence, are experiencing rates of anxiety, depression, and other mental health problems that we've never before seen. The rates of suicide, suicidal ideation, self-harm are things we've never before seen. And researchers who've looked into the psychologists like Jonathan Haidt and Gene Twangy have been able to link it to social media immersion, that these young girls across the West are immersing in social media. They're feeling very bad about themselves. And they look to the culture to help explain what's wrong.

And the culture's loud and, you know, instruction to them is, you know, if you're not feeling great about your body, you might be trans. And you say social media, but what your book does very, very well is we use social media as a blanket but there's lots of different strands to it. For instance, you talked about Instagram, the unrealistic expectations that young girls placed on their own bodies by seeing photoshopped images of other women and so on and so forth. That's right.

I mean, social media sort of conspires in a million different sites to make girls feel that they're not good enough. Their bodies are bad or ugly, that they are being left out. They can watch their friends be at a party while it's happening, who seem to be having the times of their life and they know they haven't been invited to. They watch how many likes their friends get, how beautiful the prettiest girl in their high school seems compared to them. They can actually quantify how many more likes and friends she has. And it's a very, very punishing thing for a teenage girl to sit with and experience. I mean, one of the things that people always

throw back at people like you who delve into this issue is, well, you know, we've had, as I mentioned, we had a transgender presenter on our show called India Willoughby. And, you know, she was talking about how she knew she needed to transition at five as a boy to being a girl. That didn't happen. She lived most of her life as a man. It was very uncomfortable experience, very unpleasant. And when she eventually did transition, she felt very, very comfortable. And it was really just a clicking into place, and that was great.

So people will often throw back examples like that. at someone like you. So what do you make of that counter argument that, well, some people need to transition and, you know, why are you interfering with that? That's not a counter argument. I agree with that. I actually have, you know, in the book, I interviewed many, many transgender adults. And I am someone who believes, you know, very much and has been, I've been convinced, absolutely, that transition can be very helpful for mature adults who have lived with gender dysphoria. As you mentioned, your guest did from a very young age. That's what gender dysphoria has always looked like.

It's young, it starts in early childhood, and it's overwhelmingly has been young boys saying, no, mommy, I'm a girl, I know I am. And it's persistent, insistent, consistent throughout their lives. And so as mature adults, they make this decision for themselves. My book really has nothing to do with that. It's a copycat phenomenon among teenage girls who fall for virtually every major hysteria,

who with their girlfriends, they're in terrible pain, and what they do is they convince themselves that no, their problem isn't that they're too fat, as they might have said in an earlier generation. The problem is that they're really supposed to be boys. Abigail, and how has this happened? Because there was a friend of mine who explained it to me in a way that I could never then not understand that afterwards.

She said, in terms of transitioning of children, she said, children cannot consent, right? So children who are under the age of 18 cannot possibly consent to gender surgery or taking hormones in the same way they can't consent to drinking alcohol, having sex or whatever else it might be. How have we got to a position where it's happening that children are making decisions about their long-term future in this way? You know, there are a lot of lies told around this, and one of the most disturbing really is that a young child could consent. You know, in America, a young, a minor is invited to give assent to their, you know, for instance, elimination of the risk that they will eliminate future fertility by undergoing these treatments, as if a child could possibly gauge that loss. It is a lie. We know that. And that's what the High Court of Justice said in Britain when they, you know, in the Kira Bell case, when they looked at it and as they said, you know, basically minors under 16 have no way of evaluating what it is to lose.

lose, you know, potential, you know, sexual function and, and fertility. There's no way for a child to understand that. And so, but how have we got to this place where you have not even adults, not even just adults, but professional people, doctors, psychiatrists agreeing that a six-year-old should be able to take puberty blockers? That's right. We have a terrible problem with both, bullying and unfortunately cowardice in its face in our medical professions. In America, the standards of all of the major medical professional accrediting organizations have been rewritten to tell the medical professionals that they must affirm. This is affirmative care. So whatever the patient self-diagnosis, whenever a patient self-diagnosis with gender dysphoria, the doctor's job is to

agree, not to use their independent judgment, but to agree with the patient's self-diagnosis. This is sort of the sort of Damocles that hangs over all medical professionals today. And if they don't really have the courage to speak up, they just go along with what, you know, out of fear of repercussions and loss of their license. And we'll get to the fear of repercussions because it's not in any way unjustified. The fear is genuine because, as you yourself know, and I say we'll get onto it. there are quite a lot of repercussions. But where's this, I mean, where has this come from, though? Who are the people who are rewriting these rule books and who are the people who are advancing this

worldview? Well, the activists in this area are particularly aggressive. But I will say in America, I think one of the reasons we've been remarkably sort of immune to all evidence to the contrary, to all evidence the girls are being hurt. I think that Britain's done a much better job. here of being at least open to that conversation. In America, we have a real weakness for the idea that you can be anything. And even if you want the opposite sex, now, of course, you can present as the opposite sex, but we've actually completely swallowed the lie that you can become the opposite sex. And of course, the problem with swallowing any lie in public like that is it leads to more and more lies. So in California, just this week, the California Insurance Commissioner just announced

that breasts, you know, in transgender identified females, including minors, would be considered abnormal developments. They would be considered abnormal structures that need repair. And of course, the problem, there are many problems with this, but once you have the lie in place that anyone who believes there a man truly is, then you have to look at breasts and say, well, that's an abnormal structure. I guess we need to remove it regardless of age. And Abigail, this is a question that I find myself asking many of our guests right across political spectrums when they're talking about issues such as these. But you do think, you know, we talk about a lie. We talk about, you know, the lie that becomes the truth.

But what happens to adults watching this, not standing up, not something. what they think and letting children be irreversibly damaged. Isn't that a form of cowardice? Look, I spend a lot of time telling you what's wrong with the world, so let me tell you about something that's actually right. Sleep, specifically getting more of it, better quality, the kind where you wake up and feel like a human being rather than someone who's been thrown down a staircase. Most mattresses are just layers of synthetic foam and crossed fingers. You're spending a third of your life on the thing and most people have no idea what's actually in it. Avercrow green mattress is different.

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I'm not the person who thinks carefully about where he sleeps. My dating history will tell you that. I'm the person who's been on the same mattress for eight years and called it Fine. But the older I get, the more I notice that fine isn't actually. fine. Your body tells you if you're going to invest in anything for your home, your bed is the one that pays you back every single night. Avocado products are made, not manufactured, and thoughtfully

crafted with real materials to deliver lasting comfort and support. Go to avocado green mattress.com slash trigger to check out their mattress and furniture sale. That's avocado green mattress.com slash trigger. Avocado green mattress.com slash trigger. I do think so. I will tell you that my views on this changed in the last year, you know, as I sort of faced a torrent of backlash myself. I will say that, you know, my inbox has been flooded with parents who are very grateful and have gone through with this with their own kids and their own daughters. But it's also unfortunately been flooded with doctors who say, gosh, I'm going to lose my license, but I totally agree with you.

And for the first time in the last week, I finally replied to a doctor, you know, usually I just say to professionals of all kinds, listen, I'm a journalist, you're not. Go ahead and send me your documents, I can keep you out of it. But for the first time this, you know, in this past week, I started saying, you know what, the truth is you're a doctor. And if you believe patients are being harmed, I'm sorry, but I think you have a professional obligation to say something. Right. Right. Well, this is a running theme, as Francis says in our show. We've talked to a lot of people. And the answer in many of these issues is always for people to be courageous in what are genuinely difficult circumstances.

But you talk about getting letters from parents. You interviewed a lot of people in the course of the book. You give some of their stories. What was the most shocking thing to you that you discovered in writing this book? I think one of the most shocking early lessons I got was when I started interviewing transgender adults. And I mistakenly expected them to be very energized and pushing transition. But actually, I got the reverse from them. I got not only incredible sensitivity, sobriety, and thoughtfulness from the transgender adults I interviewed, but also they were very honest with me that transition is very difficult, that it is not a snap of the fingers, that these interventions are really significant and, of course, are reversible,

and that they did not believe minors should be going through them. and that teenage girls who suddenly decide they were transgender because their friends were all coming out, they did not think these girls should be fast-track to transition. In fact, they were horrified. And really finding, you know, getting to know all these wonderful transgender people for whom the activists do not speak was really a revelation to me.

And the thing that I found incredibly shocking is the language that was being used for surgery such as a double mastectomy. you know, like top half surgery or something, top surgery. It makes it sound almost frivolous. But then if you know anything about mastectomies, it takes a six-month recovery period. Francis is an expert.

And breasts are complicated structures. They're not, you know, nothing. You're destroying function, not only erotic potential but milk production. I mean, in any other medicine, cosmetic surgeons are not allowed to destroy human functions. But here they are without even a therapist note, even on minors. And it was really shocking to me. They do call it surgery.

They do pretend it's nothing. And they are amazingly immune to the burgeoning stories of regret that are out there. If you look on YouTube week to week, the number of young women coming forth and saying, listen, I was convinced I was trans, but now I see I'm not. And look what's been done to me. They're all over YouTube. And as you say, in the title of the book, it's irreversible damage. One of the arguments that people often talk about is that you mentioned suicidality in general,

but one of the arguments that's used very specifically in this context is that if you don't allow people who claim they need to transition, to transition, you're causing them to think about suicide, you're causing them harm in that way they're going to kill themselves. What do you make of that argument? You know, unfortunately, I don't think it's a good argument, and I'll explain why. Unfortunately, science and medicine have become so thoroughly politicized in the United States and throughout the West, but particularly in the United States, that people recite these mantras without looking at any evidence. It's incredible, even scientists and doctors, especially the younger generation,

are so woke, as they say. They're so activists. They're not interested. And the truth of the matter is we have no proof that gender dysphoria causes suicidality and we have no proof that medical transition cures it and especially not for this population which we've never before and seen experiencing gender dysphoria they seem to be experienced in an atypical form of gender dysphoria that comes on suddenly in adolescence often with their peers and as a result of social media influence it doesn't look like typical gender dysphoria and we have have no proof that transition will cure it. And in fact, if you look at the numbers, we're seeing more and more people not being helped by transition who fall into that demographic.

And what responsibilities do these social media companies have to take? Because we've touched on it a few times now. You look at some of these transgender YouTubers, some of whom have got hundreds of thousands of followers on YouTube. How much responsibility do they have to take for what is happening? Well, they're not taking any now. They certainly aren't claiming any responsibilities. Look, I think it was Instagram removed inspiration sites. So sites that encouraged other girls in anorexia because we all know encouraging someone to starve themselves is a bad thing. But apparently encouraging young girls to remove their breasts or take course of testosterone

that will permanently alter their bodies in all kinds of dangerous ways, that's not considered a bad thing. In fact, it doesn't even come with a warning. And that's really, in sense, in some sense, that's, the fault line here. My book does not say, and I have never said that no one should transition, my book does not say that transition can never help. My book says that there are risks here, that these are serious interventions and there are risks. And if you believe those risks are worth exploring and discussing like every other medical treatment and procedure, then you're on my side.

You talk about, I mean, Francis brought up the issue of YouTubers, and it's very frustrating for because they have more subscribers than us. But seriously, the concern there is, you know, we believe in free speech. That is enshrined in the American Constitution. So people should be able to say what they think, right? I guess it's more a question of protecting children, isn't it? Like, how do you protect children from the things people say online about how great transition is or whatever else it might be?

I don't know that we have, that our speech is so free right now. in America. You know, parents. Tushay. Yeah. I mean, parents who were, you know, dug into their own pockets to try to promote my book because Amazon barred ads and there were so many suppression efforts

from social media. YouTube has taken certain of my interviews off and whatnot. And parents dug into their own pockets to put up billboards. Parents who believe my book was helpful to them and correct and had watched their daughters gone through this, dug into their own pockets and put up billboards across, and there was a campaign to do it across the country. And the billboards were taken down because someone claimed that a billboard which said know the

fact before making life-altering decisions. They said that constituted hate speech in America. So the billboards were taken down. Know the facts. Now you have to know, to know something about America, you know that every drug requires an announcement and of every possible risk. We're not allowed to prescribe Tylenol, you know, acetaminopin in America

without alerting everyone to every possible risk. But irreversible gender surgery, you're not allowed to talk about the risks. Francis, how is your cyber security? I've got a virus from an unnamed website. Of course you do. You're not alone, Francis. During the pandemic, British online infrastructure

has faced an astronomical rise in targeted cyber attacks, which is what I'm sure happened to you. That is dreadful. What can I do to defend myself? That is where pockets seem come in. They offer businesses like ours a special solution that alerts to hackers, crackers and malicious employees. Like Anton. Not only that, they are the only seam provider to offer pay-as-you-go cyber defence for companies. They're British-based. Absolutely. And they're from Doncaster, so they need the work.

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in your subject line so you get your 10% discount. Can I just say if you needed that spell, you really shouldn't be running a business? But surely there's going to be a backlash to this, as we have seen in the UK, where people who were told that they could transition as prepubescent little girls or pubescent girls will suddenly find that they're in their early 20s, their mid-20s, they have been let down by health professionals, the authorities, etc., etc., and they are going to inevitably sue, and so they should. You know, I expect the lawsuits to come, but right now in America, this whole, you know, machine of fast-tacking young girls to transition shows no signs of slowing down, and it shows no signs of sobriety.

My book was pulled from Target.com because of two complaints by Twitter users. My book was, I mean, the number of, I'm constantly facing all kinds of censorship, and all I've ever wanted to do, was discussed the risks. That was it. Well, let's talk about the censorship part of it because something we've dealt with when we had Posey Parker on the show, that video, it was doing very well. He got deleted as hate speech by YouTube, eventually reinstated. And thanks to them, it's now nail on a million views. So we appreciate it. But it's something that people face whenever they talk about this issue and many others where you're coming at it, you know, I would say from a very constructive

sane, sensible position. You're trying to look after vulnerable children without being hateful or discriminatory in any way. And yet the reaction is literally like you're trying to publish Mind Kampf, but with your own take on it. And it's just so disproportionate. It almost like it's hard to believe.

Like my family live all over Russia and the former Soviet Union. When I try and tell them about some of the stuff that's happening in the West, they don't get it. You must feel like you're living in some kind of weird world. It's a whole different thing and not real. I'll tell you the kind of calls I get.

And this happens week to week. A couple months ago, I got a call from a Muslim man living in our country in America who was an immigrant. He was an immigrant from a, you know, he was Muslim and an immigrant from an Arab country and was living in Washington State where the age of medical consent for mental health services has been lowered to 13, which means 13-year-olds without parental consent can get gender-affirming treatment. But his child didn't seem to have gender problems. His child, this man's child, who was a, I'll say an adolescent, so a teenager, was a minor and a teenager,

was suicidal and had had mental health problems. So he checked this, this teenager in to a hospital in Washington State for psychiatric care. While the teenager was there, they decided that the child's problem was gender dysphoria. And they began to proceed without the parent's permission to treat the child for gender dysphoria. And the Muslim man called me in a panic because he said, basically, I don't know what in the heck is going on in this country that I just moved to. I want to get my child out and I want to get out of here. Please, who can I call to get my child, you know, out of the hospital?

And I, you know, I was able to put him in touch with a social worker who could help. But he was only allowed to collect his teenager if he agreed that the teenager had this new identity. And even then, he had to fight to get his teenager back. That's the world we're living in. That's the world no one wants to talk about, that parents who have spent, I don't know, hundreds of thousands of hours with these kids. And all of a sudden a mental health professional comes in, spend one 45-minute session with him or her and thinks she knows better. And everyone has to listen to that so-called professional or parents risk losing custody.

That's what we're living in. And Abigail, so they say it's a 45-minute session, but as you explain in your book, these children are effectively coached by some of these influences, for one of a better term, of how to jump through their hoops, how to make yourself appear to a health professional that you have gender dysphoria. Could you explain the process of how that works for these girls? So by and large, these young women are, and, you know, the first real research on This was done by Dr. Lisa Lippman, a Brown University Public Health researcher who looked into this,

and she hypothesized that there was pure influence and social media influence at play. And she looked at the fact that there was a burgeoning number of young adolescents, girls who out of nowhere after spending a lot of time online had decided they were trans. These were overwhelmingly white girls, middle and upper middle class, highly educated, very precocious girls who had a lot of anxiety and a lot of depression and had a lot of trouble fitting in. So they hit their teenage years, they hit puberty, and they went through a very painful time. And they went online, feeling very lonely. And instead of, you know, in prior generations, questions they would have asked girlfriends, like, I hate my body, what do you think

of yours, that sort of thing. Instead, they turn to Google. They turn to the internet to figure out what's wrong with them. And the overwhelming message is you're probably trans. Wow. I mean, it's utterly heartbreaking. And so they see that you're probably trans, but yet they're also coached, aren't they, in order to find what are the way through the medical systems and the gaps in the system, et cetera, et cetera. So I interviewed one young woman, Benji, for my book, an adolescent who had identified as a young, at 13, she decided her problem. She was going through a very tough time at home. And she went online. and Chos age, selected a trans identity on social media, and she was overwhelmed with congratulations and love and encouragement from adults. And adults who would then coach her through transition, encourage her to break away from her parents,

encourage her that her parents could not be trusted, celebrate her for this new identity. And many of them, of course, also wanted pictures of her, because these were adults online, some of whom were there to pray on minors. It's a very, very difficult subject to talk about. I mentioned it with you. Before the interview, this happened to a friend of mine.

Her daughter is 12 years old, and she was telling me about it. She was obviously very upset. She was crying. And she said that her daughter said the words to her, and she was 12 years old when I transition. not if, when. And to me, the idea that a child would even consider that,

and let alone for it to be a certainty, it's completely heartbreaking and it's child abuse. And what's more, it's not really how children operate. You can't really have that level of certainty about something when you're 12. You don't know. It's far more complicated. So this is, I think, where Francis was sort of going out in terms of the coaching,

is people are literally being told how to go step by step, aren't they? Yes, and I think the certainty is very much the problem. Look, we all have that. You know, when you were 13, 14, you're convinced that if I just got my nose fixed, if I just got liposuction, if I just, all my problems would go away. It's so normal for a teenage girl to think along those lines. And, of course, they're getting a lot of coaching, and they're being encouraged in this online. But unfortunately, they're being encouraged in their schools.

They're being encouraged by affirmative therapists. They're being encouraged by affirmative doctors. Everyone's celebrating, telling them how brave they are if they just go through with this. So what became a sort of adolescent fixation on the alleged problem with their body becomes, in many cases, almost an obsession. They can't wait. And unfortunately, certainly in America, there are so many doctors who can't wait to oblige them. Do you watch problematic content online? Of course they do. They watch trigonometry.

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I feel helpless. I don't know what to do. What can I possibly do? So it depends on the child's age. Okay? So if your daughter is 11 or 12 or 13 and she decides out of the blue, I know what I am, I'm pansexual.

One of the things I tell parents is, number one, there's very often peer influence and social media influence at play, especially if she never exhibited any kind of gender dysphoria in childhood, which is, you know, a severe, it's not a tomboyishness. It's a severe inconsistent and insistent mental disorder. It's a very severe discomfort. It's not a passing tomboy phase or even a committed tomboy phase.

It's more significant than that. But if she announces she's pansexual, you don't have to raise the transgender pride flag over your home. Okay. it's okay to just acknowledge that she's 12 or 13 and her sexuality is likely to develop and evolve as she comes to know herself and as she has, you know, real relationships. A lot of the girls who decide these things do so after having zero romantic experience. They don't know who they are or what they want. They spend all the time with mom and online.

So I think, you know, the younger they are, there's a lot more you can do to sort of not immediately encourage and solidify this and perhaps get them some distance from, you know, friends who are encouraging it, but also social media. So social media is really pernicious to the, to all teenage girls. It's just nasty. And it's encouraging all kinds of mental health problems. So, you know, so that's that. The real problem areas with young teen girls go off to college. And there, they're the age of majority, but they're often very, very immature. We're seeing that a lot for this generation. And yet the moment they step foot on college, they now have access to a whole array of gender transitioning services that are covered by their college health plans.

Abigail, perhaps some even more appropriate question might be, what advice would you give to parents for whom that hasn't yet happened? How do you protect your child from being swayed in this way, let's say? Well, one is get them off social media. I do think it's causing a lot of mental health problems, do whatever you can to keep them off it. But the other thing, you know, if you haven't introduced it, don't. The other thing is I would say absolutely oppose gender ideology in the schools. We are confusing an entire generation of young people in the idea that if they don't feel perfectly comfortable in their bodies, they're probably a boy. That is a very confusing message and it's completely untrue. And, you know, kids are being taught this and then the moment they

experienced distress, the solution readily bobs to the surface of their minds. So I would say we can absolutely can show compassion for transgender individuals of all ages without indoctrinating an entire generation in gender confusion. All right, well, let me just put one another attempt at a counterpoint. The argument that people sometimes talk about is, you know, gay marriage and gay rights, et cetera. We as a society didn't do well on that. let's say. It took a very long time for gay people to get equality. And, you know, the three bigots like us are just here sort of doing the same thing with trans people. Gay experimentation being gay comes with no irreversible harm. There is nothing, if this were about a generation of girls declaring themselves lesbian or declaring themselves pansexual, I would not have written the book. Okay. We wouldn't oppose it either, Abigail.

Right. I mean, that's not what this is about. There is no harm in gay experimentation. There is irreversible harm in young girls, teenage girls, rushing to medical transitions, they are likely to regret because they have misdiagnosed themselves with gender dysphoria. And no adult, no medical professional, you know, used any medical judgment to evaluate if that was an accurate diagnosis. And Abigail, isn't part of the problem, and you touched on this in your book, that we have a generation that we have mollycoddled. We have protected them from every single thing that life could have to offer because we want to protect them. We want the best for them. We have a very, very immature generation.

You've just touched on that now, who are even more malleable than before because they haven't come into real world crises. That's right. And they haven't had sex or even a kiss. These are young girls who have never kissed a boy through their teenage years going online to discover who they are and what they want. They have no idea. But from a very young age, they've been presented with a buffet of gender options and a buffet of sexualities that they choose online like their choose a sweater. They have no idea who they are or what they want. They've never, as you said, they've been so mollycoddled and so protected by mom.

They've never had the opportunity to discover any of their feelings. for themselves. So when they try to break free of mom, when they try to individuate, they go online, they do it there, they get celebrated, and they choose very extreme options because they really just don't know themselves. Let's move on and talk about the political side of this and the censorship side of this, because this is something you've experienced. First of all, just before I get into my question, tell everybody what has happened to you and your book as a result of of you publishing it? It's just been a nonstop, you know,

both smearing and libeling, but also censorship attempts. First from, you know, Amazon refused to allow my publisher to sponsor ads for the book. So if you typed in the words for my book or search terms, they would suggest another

book, one of the hundreds of gender books that celebrate teenage gender transition. Target removed the book after two users claimed it was transphobic. You know, billboards, parents dug into their own pockets plate for billboards to advertise my book.

The GoFundMe they used to create a fundraiser to pay for these billboards was shut down, even though over 30,000 fundraisers are allowed on GoFundMe to pay for top surgery, for breast surgery. But a fundraiser for parents who just want awareness of the risks, that was shut down. The billboards themselves were taken down. It has truly been endless. Why do you think people feel so strongly, or maybe not so strongly, but why do companies like Target, Amazon, et cetera, why are they so fearful of a book like yours?

Well, I think that the, you know, people underestimate the, sort of two questions. Okay, first of all, we're seeing the same woke reaction among a lot of a fearful reaction to these, you know, young activists, these young, far-left activists in all our mainstream institutions in America now and corporations. They're terribly fearful. We're constantly doing anti-racism training and whatnot. So you can see it as part of that. But the question is, why this book in particular?

Why this issue in particular? And I think that's the reason is, is because, look, my book's not political. It's just a journalist's investigation into this, you know, sudden epidemic. What's going on here and why? And I think that if you take an honest look at the book, if you dare have the opportunity to read it, you will be so horrified by what's been allowed to go on that you will immediately be, you know, extremely concerned. And you certainly want more safeguards for these teenage girls. And I think that the interests that are committed to fast-tracking as much transition as possible for as many as possible, they're pretty upset that anyone would. question them. And Abigail, why is it that this topic inspires such vitriol and the bullying and the anger

and the harassment and all these tactics that are used? Why is this particular issue so toxic? Because I'm right. Because they know I'm right. If you read the book, I mean, just give it a read. You don't have to agree, but just give it a read. If you read the book, you're most likely to be horrified by what's going on. Oh, no doubt about that, as we said right at the top. It's a horrifying, very beautifully and well put together, but horrifying read. But I think Francis' point is interesting because I was just sort of thinking, you could probably drop the N-bomb live on air and you would get less pushback than you've had, even though obviously those two things are not comparable.

Being racist is terrible, whereas what you've done is you're trying to protect people. So it's interesting that that seems to be the level of vitriol. Why is it even a political issue at all, Abigail? It shouldn't be. It really shouldn't be. Most of the parents who write to me are liberal. But unfortunately, the hard left has so corrupted our institutions. Even our, you know, from even our scientific journals, we're now seeing just bald,

you know, politically motivated conclusions and papers. that really have nothing to do with the science. And it really is from this young generation of activists who are very much activists first and doctors second. So could you give an example, Abigail, about where activism is more important than science, a particular paper, so on and so forth? Well, I think the New England Journal of Medicine just came out with something recently where they said, I'm trying to remember what the particular thing is,

maybe it was either trans women are women or one of these statements. But you see it all over. I mentioned the California Insurance Commissioner just this week announced that surgeries on females' breasts, even minors, would no longer be considered cosmetic. They are reconstructive because healthy breasts are abnormal structures. See, once you start with one lie that a girl identifies as trans is really a boy, you end up with so many lies in public.

And that's what we're seeing, just a complete blizzard of lies in the United States. Well, that's the thing that I think brought this to our attention somewhat, as I said initially, it was an issue. I mean, I honestly will tell you, two years ago, before we really started delving into it in any way, we were like, why is this important? Because we didn't really understand the nuances.

And then you started seeing all the stuff. You've got a six-four-four person competing in the Olympics, against other weightlifters and winning all of that. And people literally fighting each other, one of whom who's gone through male puberty, and the other person being beaten and badly injured. And you start to see how the reality really has become placed on the altar of whatever this thing is,

whether you call that political correctness or politicization or gender ideology or whatever it is. It seems to we've just completely thrown reality out of the window in this issue, haven't we? This episode is brought to you by Netflix's remarkably bright creatures. What if a Pacific octopus held the key to a mystery that could heal your heart? Well, that's Tova's reality. An elderly widow working at an aquarium.

Tova forms an unlikely friendship with the cramudgeonly, Marcellus, whose remarkable intelligence leads her to a life-changing discovery. Watch remarkably bright creatures with your remarkable moms this Mother's Day weekend. Only on Netflix May 8th. We certainly have. Certainly in the United States. You know, the House, our Congress just moved to eliminate all gender terms from effectively the bylaws, the, you know, what can be said in the halls of Congress. So if this, you know, passes, there will be, you can't say mother and father any longer in Congress.

Truly concepts that are at the heart of what, you know, human life are no longer things that you're allowed to say for fear of offending someone. But there has to come a point, Abigail. Surely there has to come a point where the lies unravel. You cannot build a structure on forage. Surely, at some point, there's going to be an Emperor's New Clothes moment. Won't there? So if I didn't believe that, I wouldn't have written the book. I do believe that the truth will eventually out.

And I do believe it's sort of right there before our. eyes. So, you know, that these procedures need oversight, that there are risks, that transition is not easy, that there are very, very significant health and medical risks, and that a lot of these girls are self-misdiagnosing. And, you know, we need to take a look at that. All of that just, it strikes me as obviously true. You know, what I find interesting about it as well. You know, you've obviously written a book, you know, the subtitle is the transgender crazier. seducing our daughters. So you haven't exactly, you know, gone in easy on it. You've gone all the way. But there are people like J.K. Rowling who've written things, you know, much more, I don't want to

say nuance because your book is very nuanced as well, but less antagonizing way, let's say, to most people, right? And yet, sorry, am I not being fair there? No, you're being fair. You know, I get a lot of flack for the title of the book. I will say a few things in defense of the title. First of all, there is irreversible damage because unnecessary medical transition is irreversible damage definition. And this is a craze

because it meets the definition of a craze which I explain in the book. It's a sociological term. But the question is, is it seducing our daughters? Now, I will just say, I don't know what your experience is in England, but first time authors rarely write the title of their book. So I don't know what everyone assumes I'm very different as a first time author that I was allowed to choose mine.

But let's, let's, I would say that I'm certainly to be held accountable for every word within the book. But, you know, do I pretend that I came up with the title? I mean, do it does any author? Right. No, no, I know what you mean. I'm working on my first book as well and I'll make sure I get to pick the title based on your experience. But what I was going with it is more that there are people who have been less direct on this issue. And yet the vitrile they've received has been just as bad as you have. It's almost

like like Jacob Rowling being a good example. You know, what she said about it was very, very carefully worded. And yet she is this evil, bigger transphobe, you know, God knows what she is, getting death threats and whatever. Why are they just so vitriolic? We're probably asking this question for the third time in the last 45 minutes. I just don't understand. Well, there's a whole lot of people who are very invested in the idea that they are heroes, that they're saving these girls from suicide.

And if they're wrong, then we'll have to look at what they've done very differently. and we might even look at many of them as monsters. It's a good point. It's a very, very good point. I mean, you look at this issue, and the more you delve into it, the more it becomes more horrifying, the more layers it has,

and the more it unravels. What options are there for a girl after she's transitioned and she decides she wants to be, she wants to reverse it? Can she ever go back to how she was, it too late at that point? Well, it depends what she medically went, underwent. But I will say this. I have interviewed many detransitioners. They're wonderful, courageous young women who went through

something very awful. And I will just say it's important to remind anyone out there who regrets a transition that there is life after transition. There are cosmetic procedures you can get to help with all kinds of changes to your bodies. And to remember that you have a whole long life ahead of you. and, you know, I try to stay very, you know, make sure they get that message because a lot of them do feel very, very bad about what they've been through and what they were, what they, the procedures they underwent. That said, of course, you know, I wrote the book because the changes that a body undergoes through testosterone cannot all be undone. The voice is likely to be masculinized for life. The features may be, depends how long she's been on testosterone, but you may have a permanent five o'clock shadow. The changes to her private anatomy may never go back.

Of course, if you've had your breast removes, they do not come back. If you've had to undergo a prophylactic hysterectomy to avoid endometrial cancer from the testosterone, you know, you of course can't have children. So, you know, what's involved in transition is a long series of very serious surgeries and hormonal treatments. And you talk about, before we wrap up, you talk about going through a lot. what has the last period of time since you, since you wrote the book been like for you?

Well, it's definitely been interesting. I mean, I will say this, you know, I try to stay positive. I get a lot of wonderful comments from parents, and I really appreciate that. I get a lot of wonderful, you know, thanks from both from doctors and also from therapists who are very concerned with going, what's going on, but also from transgender adults. So I try to focus on that. If you look too much at the efforts of suppression in the United States, you know, perhaps in your country as well, I don't know,

but certainly in the United States, it's very, very dark. It does not, I mean, the number of efforts to slander me and to erase my work, it just, there's a relentlessness to it. So I try not to focus that and try to focus on the fight ahead, which, which I believe I will win. Abigail, why did you decide to write a book about this? Out of all the possible things that you could write a book about, it's your first book like you've mentioned before. Why this topic, why this issue?

A reader wrote to me, and she said, she was a mom. She said my daughter got caught up in this. She had no history of gender dysphoria. She had a lot of mental health problems, went off to college and decided with her friends that they were all trans and they started a course of testosterone. And the woman was very upset. she said she had written to many journalists and no one would take this cause up.

And at first I thought, this is the last thing I want to get involved in. And I tried to pass her on to another investigative journalist. And then I waited for four months and no piece came. I was assured that the piece would be written. It wasn't. And so during those months, I thought, you know, if a journalist won't take this up, if a journalist won't look into the biggest what could be, and I didn't know at the time, the biggest medical scandal, you know, around today,

then who will ever expose this? Well, before we last you, our last question, let me ask you this. How do you think we will look back on this period in human history and the things that we as a society have done and have allowed to happen? I think with shame and regret, these girls are teenagers.

They don't know themselves. YouTube is now being flooded with stories of regret, the idea that we can't, you know, put more safeguards on to make sure that only people, only mature adults who actually have gender dysphoria go through transition is it's crazy that we don't have those. And lastly, the question that I really want to ask is

there have been links between autism and then these girls transitioning. How much truth is there to that? Is there a real link or is it? Or is this simple speculation? No, no, no, no. There's been some studies on it. There is there a link. They have been able to show that a high percentage of, you know, there is a, you know,

it's certainly a link that a lot of the girls who are claiming to have gender dysphoria, also have autism, you know, are on the spectrum. So they have sort of very often they're high functioning. These are highly precocious girls, high functioning, you know, autism. But that was something I wasn't unfortunately able to explore in the book. because when I began to interview experts in autism, as I did, I started to realize that that was such a scandal of its own because many autism doctors, you know, autism, kids with autism tend to fixate. And all these autism doctors, unfortunately, were introducing gender. They were

gender ideology. They were introducing a fixation to a population that tends to fixate. So I do believe it's a medical scandal all its own. Wow. Well, you've got the material for another book in there, haven't you? Abigail, thank you so much for coming on. The last question we always ask all of our guests is, what is the one thing that we're not talking about as a society that we really should be? I imagine, of course, the subject of your book would be number one on that list, but what would be another? You know, that polite lies do not belong in the public sphere. Polite lies are the things we utter in private. But the moment as a society we adopt what we consider to be a polite lie to avoid offending someone, we end up in a very, very bad place because lies lead to more lies

and they have consequences in the public sphere that they don't have in private. So I think that's something we should be talking about. That's a really good point and very on brand for our show because that's the type of conversations we like to have honest ones like this one. Abigail Shrya, Thank you so much. I really recommend everybody reads your book, Irreversible Damage. And thank you very much for coming on. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you very much. If people want to find you online, Abigail, where would be the best place to be after we've been slamming social media for the best part of an hour?

I think Twitter, of course, at Abigail Shrier. Perfect. We'll make sure to include that in the video. And thank you all for watching. We will see you very soon with another brilliant episode like this one, or a live stream, all of them go out 7pm UK time. Take care guys and see you soon.