TRIGGERnometry - Afghanistan Crisis Explained with Shabnam Nasimi

Episode Date: August 23, 2021

Shabnam Nasimi is a British-Afghan writer, political commentator and Director of Conservative Friends of Afghanistan. Get TICKETS to TRIGGERnometry Live with Andrew Doyle here: https://leicestersquaretheatre.ticketsolve.com/shows/873619472 Join our exclusive TRIGGERnometry community on Locals! https://triggernometry.locals.com/ OR Support TRIGGERnometry Here: https://www.subscribestar.com/trigger... https://www.patreon.com/triggerpod​​​ Bitcoin: bc1qm6vvhduc6s3rvy8u76sllmrfpynfv94qw8p8d5 Buy Merch Here: https://www.triggerpod.co.uk/shop/​​​ Advertise on TRIGGERnometry: [e-mail] Join the Mailing List: https://www.triggerpod.co.uk/sign-up/​​​ Find TRIGGERnometry on Social Media:  https://twitter.com/triggerpod​​​ https://www.facebook.com/triggerpod​​​ https://www.instagram.com/triggerpod​​​ About TRIGGERnometry:  Stand-up comedians Konstantin Kisin (@konstantinkisin) and Francis Foster (@francisjfoster) make sense of politics, economics, free speech, AI, drug policy and WW3 with the help of presidential advisors, renowned economists, award-winning journalists, controversial writers, leading scientists and notorious comedians. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What was interesting was that when Trump was in power and he started this whole thing. Everyone thought, well, he's an evil man. He's this horrible individual. And he started this and he doesn't care. And everyone had so much hope that when Biden comes in, he's going to reverse this decision. He will put conditions on this peace process. He will do something or he will just extend the withdrawal date to make sure there's a meaningful discussion. And actually, he made it a thousand times worse.

Hello and welcome. to Trigonometry. I'm Francis Foster. I'm Constantine Kishin. And this is a show for you, if you want honest conversations with fascinating people. A brilliant and important guest we have for you today. She is the founder of Conservative Friends of Afghanistan. Shablan Simi, welcome to Trigonometry. Thank you for having me. It's so great to have you on the show. Thanks for coming on. It's obviously a very difficult time at the moment as we speak. Before we get into the issue of Afghanistan itself, talk to us a little bit about who you are, what is your story, what is your story, What is your journey through life? How do you find yourself sitting here talking to us?

Thank you. Well, originally my family came to the UK in 1999, which was just two years prior to the 9-11 attacks. And they had studied in the former Soviet Union, then directly affiliating themselves with Russia and its system. Great people. Very. And as a result of that, they knew that they were directly targeted by the tax. Taliban and its regime, who do not agree with anyone who have Western values or, I guess, seen as would Soviet Union, people thought that you were an atheist who didn't believe in Islam. And, you know, that's how you're targeted.

And that's the same case today as well. But, you know, we grew up in London and southeast. And I have two younger sisters and one brother. And I think with most minority ethnic groups, from a young age, when you know you've come from a country that has very little opportunity, you work a lot harder, a lot, a lot harder to get to a point where you're recognized and you're heard. And I think particularly for Afghans, it's even more so because we come from one of the most war-torn countries in the world, one of the most impoverished, that in comparison to, to even our neighbors of Pakistan, Iran and India and Central Asia, Afghans tend to struggle a lot more in terms of integration and getting adjusted in the societies they end up resettling in.

So, yeah, it's not been an easy journey. I'm proud of where I am today, but we'll get on to that in a bit. But that's sort of my story in a very nutshell. And your family escaped Afghanistan. And came here as refugees via a bunch of countries, didn't they? They did. It was the normal route the refugees normally take. You sort of give up your life, your home, your belongings, your family, and you trek through Pakistan or either Iran and move across to Europe,

first getting into, arriving at Greece, Italy, France, Dover, and then the UK. And we actually came in a container at the time. So it was a container that was carried in one of those. ferries that comes to the UK from Calais and it was sort of pitch black. The only thing, the only thing I can remember from that point is it was very difficult to breathe and my dad wanted to make sure that we were calm. So he had matched things and kept lighting them up so that we could see a little bit. And it was only me and my sister at the time. My younger brother and sister

were born here. But yeah, no, it's not it's not a journey you take out of choice. That's definitely the case and it's something that a lot of people feel that you're given up your dignity and your respect to come in that way to another country. And I think it's probably with the current situation in Afghanistan, it's really important to stress that what's happening and the fact that a lot of countries are now offering resettlement that it's not out of choice. No one really wants to leave your home, your comfort to go somewhere else and in such difficult situations. Well, look, we'll talk about the refugee issue probably later on. But let's just go back. for people watching this.

They've seen Afghanistan in the news. Let's be honest, most people in the West of Abs who couldn't find Afghanistan on a map, right? So just take us back through the last 20 years, particularly. So your family left in 99. Soon after that, Al-Qaeda attack the Twin Towers in New York, destroy them, kill thousands of people in America. America retaliates, you could say, or goes into Afghanistan to deal with the problem of the terrorists,

that were being allowed to set up bases there, to train, et cetera. Talk us through that and everything this happens in, so that we have a good grounding for the conversation that we have. Sure. So on the year of 2001, the Northern Alliance in Afghanistan, which was led by the former Ahmad Shah Masood, and Dostom, one is from the Tajik ethnic group and the other from the Uzbek ethnic group, both actually began fighting against the Taliban, quite, you know, form a strong resistance in a movement. Then, as a result, the Taliban collapsed in their regime.

And that's when the US stepped in and provided that aircraft, the logistics, the power, the forces to help Afghans completely remove the Taliban and oust them from Afghanistan. And the mission was primarily targeted at destroying the al-Qaeda and its networks and the Taliban as well. which was partially successful. Of course, you can't really get rid of an extremist group completely. Leaving even a seed of them does mean that they will continue to flourish. And with the Taliban, they're trained, particularly on the other side of the border of Pakistan in madrasas,

really extreme Islamic schools from a very young age. So it's why they've been able to return today. But going back to what happened in 2001, Once NATO in the international community went in, the whole world's attention was in Afghanistan. Trillions in aid was spent, money, interest, effort, sacrifices. I mean, 2,000 American forces died and 450 British soldiers died. So people made heavy sacrifices in Afghanistan and effort and a lot of time because they wanted to not only remove the extremism in the terrorist groups, but also nation-build. And so the mission wasn't focused on just destroying extremism, but also creating society and a system.

So when they went into Afghanistan, they had to start from scratch. There was practically no infrastructure, no health system, no education, no schools, the roads had to be fixed, everything. It was a blank canvas. So the reason why this last few days have been so difficult is because if you had just gone in there to remove the Taliban and you were only fighting with them, it would have been a different story. But you went in there to develop a country. You developed a nation that had hope that were fighting for something. And in the last 20 years, Afghanistan progressed incredibly. It wasn't perfect. I don't think any country anywhere in the world would say that in 20 years, they became a developed

country and changed. Europe wasn't made in 20 years. Neither was. the US or anywhere else. But 20 years in Afghanistan, because so much attention was put into into the country all at once, schools were built. There was almost 40, 50% of the students in universities and schools were girls. And there were female journalists. There were actresses. There were musicians, singers that were performing without scarves, which is quite extraordinary. one of my Iranian friends that saw videos of female singers in Afghanistan performing this, we can't do that in Iran without a scarf. How can you guys can, women can perform and sit amongst men without a head cover?

So it was astonishing for Iranians. And it was also astonishing for a lot of Central Asian and Pakistani countries, Pakistan as well, sort of South Asian countries, because they said that you had such a free press. You were able to criticize the president. you were able to criticize the government and officials without any consequences. Whereas most of these countries, it's not the same.

Even, you know, Russia today is still, you can't really speak against Putin. A nice little dig at my people. You can, just don't drink the tea. Yeah, exactly. But Afghanistan, yeah, and that was the case. You know, I traveled to Afghanistan a few times over the last 20 years every year or every other year,

visited family, visited friends. And there were points of work. I went out and walked outside without any family members. In the beginning, I was a bit terrified. I thought maybe my uncle or my aunt or my cousin had to go with me because I didn't know. I was a bit unfamiliar, and I thought. But slowly, eventually, I could just walk around anywhere on my own.

So that was the progress. Women were outside in cafe shops and restaurants, sitting like we are today comfortably. And that's been taken away. So the last 20 years, what was created was a nation that was moving forward. And more importantly, 75% of Afghanistan is under the age of 25 approximately. The majority of the new generation today never lived under the Taliban rule.

All they knew was the last 20 years. So this was a new generation, like a complete new chapter, starting fresh, who have only seen progress. and moving up. So the mentality changed, the psyche changed. People lived under Western liberal, liberalized democratic values. And I think one thing that people fail to understand is that it wasn't forced upon them. You know, a lot of stop the coalition or stop the war, sort of war coalition groups and

people who are against the intervention say, you know, we can't go there and impose our system on others. It doesn't work. in countries like Afghanistan, yes, you've got to understand that this is a tribal country. There's lots of different sex, lots of different groups. You've got to embrace culture and the people. But you went there and you introduced democracy and people wanted it. They didn't kick you out.

They didn't force you out. They didn't fight with you. They embraced it really strongly. They loved living in a free society. So it wasn't imposed. They accepted it. So to sort of to some of, to some of, to some of, a lot was done. A lot had changed. A lot of sacrifice was made. And so this is why the last few days

and the consequences of the withdrawal has been so hard to accept. And before we get into that, the question I really wanted to ask is, who are the Taliban? Because people often, we talk about them, but no one really explains who they are, where they're from, their belief system. Why is it that they want to, you know, overthrow, you know, the current government. And how were they empowered before? The Taliban are an extreme Islamist group. They are tribal in their mentality. So there is an honor code that they go through, sort of their practice.

So in terms of ethnicity, majority of them are from the Pashtun ethnic group of Afghanistan. Today, they're a little bit more diverse. They're recruiting from all sects. But originally from that, that ethnic group. And they live in, in sort of societies that are very patriarchal. Men are allowed outside. Girls aren't. Girls do not have, or women do not have the right to study, to work.

Their responsibility is basically to look after their family members and their husband and to produce children. And their system, and what they want for Afghanistan is basically a very, very fundamental form of Islam that allows no freedom. In some ways, I feel they're trying to act like God. And they think they are God, you know, punishing a woman who steps outside without the right clothes. And if she is hurt to have had any relations with a man, any type, even a conversation,

without justification, without a proper sort of legal court proceeding in terms of finding out whether adultery, for instance, actually happened or anything like that, they would stone a woman. And, I mean, in terms of the religious aspect of it, I don't think I can go into too detail to sort of understand what script they're using and the different types of Islamic practices. But what I do know is that there isn't, with the Taliban, it's very similar to al-Qaeda and ISIS, but the only difference is that they're very tribal in their mentality. And they're a group that in Afghanistan have come primarily from Pakistan and are also trained in madrasas from a very young age, very young. teenagers. And so they're so brainwashed that when by the time they, you know, grow up to 20, 30 years old, they know nothing other than violence and brutality and killing. So it's basically

a fundamental extremist Islamic group. So what you have is modern society, well very modern for what we know from Afghanistan. And then we have the Taliban. How is it that the Taliban with less resources without the American dollars, without American technology, have managed to overthrow the Afghan army backed by the US, the UK, etc., etc. Well, this is the question that's been asked a few times this past week. Even Biden actually said, well, why are we going to fight when the Afghan forces aren't fighting? First of all, NATO actually haven't been fighting since 2014. They've been their non-combat role. They've simply been there to provide morale, support, logistics and training.

Unfortunately, though, Afghans have had a very corrupt government in that the support that the government should have been given the armed forces wasn't available. So a lot of soldiers from what I was hearing were not receiving their salaries. They weren't being funded properly. They weren't being supported by the government either. So they were quite isolated and left alone. in the last year or so, when NATO and the US announced they were leaving, the Taliban were on their own fighting with neither the government support nor NATO's. I mean, a lot of people question and say, well, if we haven't been able to create a strong army in the last 20 years,

or where did all that money go? The first couple of years, I guess the first 10 years, was when the intense training was happening. And the latter half of this two decades, they were given the logistics and the support. Again, I don't think there's any military in the world that would have been able to do what they have done in the last 20 years. So you can't just take away the logistics, the aircraft, the equipment, and say, okay, here you go, get on with it. And that's practically what was done. You took everything from them and you let them fight on their own with very little equipment, no weapons. Hold on, Sam. I'm sorry to interrupt. What about the Taliban? It's not like they have, you know, American,

warplanes and drones and and com sophisticated equipment. I think they're funded very well though. They're funded really well. Most of the forces, the soldiers in the Afghan army are coming from very impoverished homes. They're very poor.

A lot of my own father's family are serving in the army and from what I hear it was either become a soldier or die from hunger because there was no other choice to join was to simply be able to make an income. So they weren't all very skilled. It wasn't a choice. All motivated. It was simply to make a living. And I think this last couple of months, there's a lot of political

issues with this as well, and that province after province was just given to the Taliban quite easily. People weren't fighting. There wasn't resistance. A lot of soldiers knew that if they fought and there was a lot of sentiment that the Taliban going to win. There was a lot of morale. You saw it in the media. I think also that worsened the situation in that when you're saying that they're going to win, you're already changing people's mindset. So they're not going to have the confidence to continue fighting. So it was actually a conversation that I had with the Foreign Office recently where we were working on seeing if we can do a counter Taliban propaganda campaign because by talking about the Taliban winning, you're already instilling that narrative

on people's minds and people will just run away rather than fight. I think it's the same with the soldiers as well. They just believe that it's going to happen. Why fight and die if no one really cares and no one's going to help us? And today, any soldier that is captured by the Taliban is killed in a really, really brutal way. And there already been cases that I've seen, videos that I've seen. So I'm sure many of those soldiers knew that because we were fighting directly against the Taliban

and we were fighting for a foreign-backed army that we will be killed. So a lot of them just ran away. And I think details are important. When you say killed in a really brutal way, what are we actually talking about here? Well, actually, I saw a video today of a army general being caught, his hand tied, blindfolded, on his knees and shot about 100 times in Kandahar. So it's just very difficult to even imagine.

To even speak about. Another friend of mine who served in Afghanistan, two tours, posted on social media. that 12 men that he had been working with have been executed in Lashkar, in Kandahar as well. So that's already started. And the brutality and the way they kill, other family members that I know and friends, the soldiers have had to go into hiding,

but the Taliban are going to all patrolling and doing house searches. So they'll go into the house, they'll look around, they'll see who's at home, they'll take the cars and any property. And there was actually one house that were going to take the house as well. But they found a way to negotiate and allow them to the family members to stay. But if that soldier was captured and they're clearly looking for him,

he would face the same type of savage brutality and murder. Do you have a website or do you personally? plan to have a website? Well, if you do, then EasyDNS are the company for you. EasyDNS is the perfect domain name registrar provider and web host for you. They have a track record of standing up for their clients, whether it be council culture, de-platform attacks, or overzealous government agencies. He knows a bit about that. So will you in a second. EasyDNS have rock-solid network infrastructure and incredible customer support.

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I mean, what do you do with these people? Can you rehabilitate them? Do you simply have to wipe them off the surface of the earth? Or are you constantly going to be in this quasi-ci-ci-ci-ci-ci-ci-ci-ci-war with them? Well, it's a difficult one because a lot of people argue that the West made the mistake of not including the Taliban in peace talks right from the beginning and seeing whether they would be willing to be part of African society, have a part in this government,

and start to be assimilated, integrate into the police and the army, and work alongside others. I don't know whether that would have been the case, because clearly they have no interest in working or compromising at all. In the last few days, they said we want unconditional power. Initially, the agreement was there will be a transitional government for six months where someone will just step in until an agreement is made in terms of it will be a 50-50 arrangement, whose responsibility will be, you know, what.

But they said, we're not going, we're not coming back without 100%. And that's it. And we won the Emirate, Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan, nothing less than that. So it's a difficult question to answer. I think probably a lot of people thinking that with a group like that existing, if we stay 20, 30, 40, 50 years, if they're still going to come back and retrain and regroup, what's the point? But I think if we had stayed for longer, like we have in, you know, and in the US,

are still in South Korea. You know, we stayed for a very long time in Germany. We're in Cyprus and you've got Hong Kong. You know, we've got army and. soldiers all around. But by persisting and enduring, you develop a society that eventually can fight on its own. I think 20 years was too early. Had you given it 40 years, or probably a little bit more than that, potentially you would have created a society that was resilient and would have been able to stand on its own two feet and fight independently. But you've

pulled everything way too quickly, expecting them to just deal with it on their own. Well, the counterargument and a lot of people have made, including our, we've recorded the interview, but he will be our former guest because we recorded him before, Ricky Beckson from the Henry Jackson Society. And he's written a piece in Spiked talking about the fact that actually many of the things that you've put, and of course you're entitled to put them to us, about the progress has been made in Afghanistan the last 20 years. Is Western wishful thinking more than reality? For example, he quotes polls from only a few years. years ago would show that 99% of Muslims in Afghanistan want Sharia law, 94% think that wives should always obey their husbands, 85% think the penalty for adultery should be stoning, and on and on we go. So if we've been in Afghanistan that long,

and with all of the things you've talked about, girls go into school and university, being free from wearing, headscarf, whatever, really, have we made that much progress there? Has society moved on? particularly, and maybe it's also, there's two questions in what I'm saying, that's the first part, have we made enough progress? And the second part is, is it maybe just a weakness of Western liberal democratic thinking that if you are Islamic Islamist fundamentalist,

and you believe that if you sacrifice yourself on the battlefield, you're going to go to heaven, where you're going to be surrounded by virgins, and you're fighting against someone who's fighting for human rights and freedom, it's not quite a strong and motivating force to fight and to die and to sacrifice your life or something. Do you see what I'm saying? Yeah.

Those two questions. Talk to us about that. The first, I would say, if that was the case and we actually haven't made much of a difference, you wouldn't be seeing people fleeing today. If they wanted to live under such a system, why is it that you're constantly seeing videos

of people running towards airplanes? Well, because they worked with the West and now they're going to be punished. A lot of them haven't. Most of those people that were running had in work with the West, and there were just ordinary Afghans, some who just wanted to get away. I think one of the issues in the last couple of days that I've seen

is that a lot of the people that were in the airport weren't actually from Kabul, and the majority weren't people who had fought and worked with the West. It was just ordinary Afghans, who was trying to find an opportunity just to get into the airplane with no documents, no passport, anything like that. So if that was the case, they wouldn't be running.

And I say this. I think the other problem I'm having is that I come from Afghanistan, I have family, I have friends, I've traveled there, and yet when I hear people telling me that that country hasn't progressed or the mentality hasn't, I dispute that because I feel like we need to hear from Afghans a lot more. And that's the other problem with this is that when I was talking about the fact that Afghans are a very marginalized group,

even in the West, their voices aren't heard. very much. I mean, you've got Caribbean, you've got the black community, you've got South Asia, to wet South Asia, to wet India and Pakistanis, and so many others. And a lot of them have, of course, been here much, much longer in Britain. Afghans are newly arrived, you know, 15, 20 years. You're right here. Which is great. It took us 20 years, yes. We've come to the point now. We've only been doing this for three years. So you're the first Afghan on the show, I believe, and you're very welcome here. But look, what I'm talking about is opinion polls, right? This isn't He said, she said, et cetera.

And of course, there will be people fleeing war. There will be people fleeing the Taliban. There will be people who don't want to live under Sharia law. Your parents and your family didn't. But what I'm asking is, has Afghan society really moved on as much as we'd like to think? I think I'm not going to disagree that Afghanistan is a very complex society. And I think I mentioned a little bit earlier that it's a tribal society. that lives under tribal practices

and that the woman's role is not out in the public that women should have more than five children and very religious, very fundamental. But it takes time to help people get out of that mindset. The other problem is that a lot of the change were in cities like Kabul. That's what I was going to ask about. And there wasn't much intervention. and these sort of big NGOs were being funded by foreign governments,

but their work was been delivered in the capital cities. And I find the issue with that as well. We weren't actually funding community-led activities by activists all across Afghanistan on a grassroots level. This was all done by Save the Children or Oxfam, all these major organizations that were working with communities, groups and civic society activists in cities with well-established groups already, with people that spoke English.

I guess it was easier for them, wasn't it? You know, to work for people that understood the system that could communicate with them. It would have been a lot harder to go to a rural place where English wasn't spoken and then trying to deal and figure out how to work around that. So, you know, they took the easier option and the easiest way out to change and bring about change in Afghanistan. So that could have been one of the cause for the fact that the poll said that a lot of people were still quite traditional in their mindset. But it takes time. It really does. It's not an easy, I think people fail to understand how backward Afghanistan really was,

and probably still is, like you said, in rural areas. There is no country around the world that has suffered from over 40 years of conflict, from 1978, ongoing, that does not have any system. I remember when I first went, even in 2001, there were sewers out in the open. People would go to a toilet and it would come out into the road. The roads needed to fix, and the houses are very old, made out of clay and mud.

So to think that you can change a country like that, that is tribal, that is traditional, that is practically living in the first century so quickly is very naive. It's something, you know, we've failed to really study Afghanistan properly, first of all, to understand its people, its culture, where we've started, what kind of country we're actually intervening in. For example, we will compare it to Iraq, but Iraq was a very developed country before Saddam. And so was Syria. Yeah. You know, Afghanistan's not the same.

It's completely different. And the interventions were different. We were fighting extremism in Iraq and Syria and fighting Daesh. But before our interventions, before Saddam and before Assad, these were very, very modern, westernized, liberal societies. And stable. Very stable. Business, economy, freedom.

Afghanistan is not the same. And why I try to emphasize to anyone that compares is, please don't compare, because Afghanistan is a unique case. It's never been a development. society and you weren't there to fix a small problem. You were there to fix decades of a problem. Let me ask you one more bad cop question before Francis jumps in, which is with all of that being the case,

and I recognize that from what I know about that part of the world. I mean, you weren't like hearing this, but there will be a lot of people listening to you going, well, I mean, we were there for 20 years. We spent $2 trillion on trying to build up this country to make it a more Western, more liberal society. I mean, how much more money are British and American taxpayers? How many more lives?

I'm not saying this is an easy decision, but that is how people will be thinking. I mean, another 20 years, 40 years, how long does it take to take someone in a rural area of Afghanistan who's maybe never seen electricity, let alone modern Western liberal? How long does it take to get that to where you can just live?

believe it and the Taliban aren't going to come back and take over because quite a lot of people are quite happy with what they're going to do. Oh, I understand what you're saying. And the reason why those people ask those questions is because they think this is an Afghan crisis. They don't see this as a regional or global crisis. In the 21st century, we shouldn't even have a country that lives like that. It's a human issue. We need to actually ask questions why even a country like that exists, first of all. Second of all, as we've seen from past history, what happens in Afghanistan affects the West directly. It's one of the reasons why we went there in there in the first place. We were trying to ensure that our shores and our land is safe from extremism. So we had to go there

to bring stability. It affects us directly here. So you're not going there to fix their problem. You're there to fix them so that it benefits you and your safety and your security. And And thirdly, Afghanistan's quite positioned in a really important geographical area. You've got Pakistan and India, which is a former British Raj. You've got Iran, which is no friend of the West. You've got Central Asia, which is under Soviet Union control. You've got China. So it's a very important spot.

When you're there, strategically, you can maintain order anywhere. by leaving, you've left a vacuum and already China and Russia are saying they're going to step in and fund the Taliban. You know, China's developing that new silk belt road across the region in order to

feed their sort of economic domination ambitions they have. So, you know, it's not a small matter and I think when you fail to understand the political side of this, the economic side of the security, the diplomatic aspects of the Afghanistan intervention, that's when you understand that you're not there fixing someone else's problem.

You're there to fix your own problem. But in addition to that, you're also trying to give the Afghan people some hope and peace and freedom. You know, Afghans have never kicked out anyone by force. It's always been military intervention and political sort of games being played in the land. They are very vulnerable group. They're very marginalized. They're very, you know, hopefully, well, you're not going to be able to travel now if you haven't in the last 20 years.

But let's see what happens. But if you do travel, you'll see how simple they live. Their lives are very simple. And I think the only wish I would have had is the political elite in Afghanistan, which is less than 1% are the ones who have caused this problem as well. The majority of the Afghan population have no hand in what's going. on. A lot of them are illiterate, have no understanding of what's happening around them. It's the political lead, who most of them have come from the West in the last 20 years, actually. That's the other problem, is that you have a president and ministers who've been educated and live their whole lives

in the US, the UK, in Europe, step in and say, we're going to fix Afghanistan, but never going through the struggle and the pain of the war. So how can they really be in touch with what's happening? And as you've seen, most of them have actually left abandoning the country without any fight. People are very, very infuriated with the president who left even without notice of resignation. Managed to take about $136 million in cash with them, though? Yeah, that's exactly. I mean, it's traumatic and it's hard to accept that this is, I think we made huge mistakes right from the beginning as well by working with people who, you know, it was easier for the West to work with people like them because, again,

there were Western individuals who had grown up and studied in the West, and it's a lot easier to communicate and deal with them. But I think there's not, there wasn't a lot of energy and hard work and getting actual people in Afghanistan, like the actual Afghans, get them to a point where there can be leaders. The investment wasn't made to make new leaders. The investment was on existing people who you've just brought from the West to take up these positions and who wouldn't last really because you know you've got to do a passport

you'll run away any moment and catastrophe strikes. Don't you think as well, Shabnan, that the widespread corruption made the society fundamentally unsustainable. You can't have society where people aren't getting paid because all the money is getting stolen.

Oh, absolutely. I agree. It's something I've been campaigning against and I've raised a number of times that there needs to be a lot more monitoring of funding that goes in. It wouldn't have been difficult for, for example, the UK to set up a body that would ensure that any money that goes in, where it goes, who it goes to. You know, you gave money to a government and it wasn't just, you know, the UK. It was Europe and the US and the world pledged billions of pounds to Afghanistan without surveillance. or a system or monitoring system of where it goes and who it goes to. And particularly, you know, people that were in government, any contracts that came in,

there was a lot of opportunity, honestly. I think Afghanistan had, if we, for example, went to Afghanistan the last 20 years, we would have been millionaires by now. There was so much opportunity. Contracts were being given to, offered and development opportunities. What happened, though, is a lot of that was given to close circles. So, you know, you've got the president. he would give it to his brother or his son or a relative

and they would have this multi-million contract to develop a factory or, you know, buildings and roads and would pocket half of that. And I mean, that's the way it worked. And I think the fault is in both ways, both the fact that we had a very corrupt government and irresponsible one. And then also the fact that the international community

gave aid without any bother. like where is it going? And I think also that's what's probably infuriated the British Republic for instance. You're spending all of our tax pays money, but you're not monitoring where it's going, who it's going to. And a lot of that money didn't go to the people that should have had it. And that's the other argument over the fact that if we haven't been able to develop African in 20 years, then what hope is there for anymore? But that money didn't go to Afghans. It didn't go to the everyday people that we should have been working with to change their mentality, to allow their girls to go to school, to change their understanding of how society runs,

and to allow them to become more educated. So if the money isn't going to the everyday Afghan and it's going in the pockets of the elite or the people that live in capital cities, how could you expect there to be any shift in mentality or understanding? So there were huge failures. I'm not saying it's perfect. There was a lot of mistakes that were made over the last 20 years in many aspects in terms of aid, in terms of understanding the society, understanding the fact that there are different ethnic groups. I mean, ethnicity was another huge problem in Afghanistan. You've got Tajik's, you've got Uzvex, Pashtuns, Hazaras, all of these ethnic groups

also want it to be represented and included in the process. Afghanistan is a very centralized system. has a, every power, everything was in the centralised government. For example, the police would, sorry, the president would even recruit police officers or the teachers. I mean, that's how, how much control the president had. No one would be able to make a decision without him. Sounds familiar.

And so people felt neglected, people felt underrepresented. They felt this was not a system that was inclusive. Was there a bit of resentment as well, the fact that, you know, hang on a second. You know, none of the people from this country are actually being truly represented because you've just flown someone in from America. So didn't they, wasn't there a large part of them that just saw this as a puppet regime? Oh, for sure. The majority of the country did think that.

They thought, you know, you've got a president who actually made a few mistakes as well. One was actually when he was, there was a prayer. doing Eid, I think it was. He didn't know how to pray, sort of the Islamic way of, you know, going down or there was an error there. And then there was also, I think he recited one of the Islamic verses incorrectly. So he made a few mistakes. I think probably why he ran away so quickly was that he knew that if he fell in the hands of the Taliban, he would have been done. But yes, that was the major problem and something I've been dealing with in that a lot of Afghans would say, how can we trust a government that has not actually come from within the society?

And these are all people, you know, the National Security Advisor came from the UK. Most of the ministers were either from the US, from the UK. President Ghani was from the US. These are very well educated. And Karzai before him. was from the US as well. So really in the last 20 years, there wasn't actually anyone. There were very many people that were from Afghanistan and lived there and raised there that were in government.

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of course I do. You're not convincing me that the US and the UK should stay. It just sounds like such a nightmare. And how are you going to distribute funds without an elite? And how are you, Do you see what I'm saying? It just sounds like such a massive mess. It was a mess because we didn't do it the right way the first time. I think staying, listening, understanding what Afghanistan is, what kind of nation it is, listening to the very people that we've ignored for so long, it would have been a shift and a change.

And I'm not convincing you because you're still looking at it in terms of the nation-building part of it. we need to we need I understand there were failures when it comes to the country itself but when it comes to British foreign policy I agree with you on the security aspect security economic diplomatic around but by saying in Afghanistan despite its failures

you were giving back whilst gaining a lot more yeah I get that so yes it's it's takes a lot of effort. It's difficult. And my suggestions and recommendations have always been let's work with the communities that have been isolated for so long. The people that you do not and have not consulted with, even in the last three years of the peace process, no one's actually

none of the negotiations, whether it was in Doha or Russia or in Iran, the sea, you know, high level meetings, they were all with the top political elite, the Khaar Zai and his group and the people that were in government. There was no reps from the youth. There was no representative from the women, the new generation, the different ethnic groups. So, so many failures, and I think it came out of either comfort or the fact that you've worked with one group for so long,

you rely on them to do everything. It takes a lot more effort and time. and management to train individuals who aren't used to Western ways of working, I guess, or can't speak English very well, or just aren't familiar with how to negotiate, how to speak, how to be politically educated. So I know it takes a lot more time and effort, but I think we took the easier way out by working with a group that just was familiar for us, was a group that we've either trained or worked with in the West and have formed existing relationship with.

Let me ask you about another what you might describe as a simple way, not necessarily easy way out, but the one that I'm starting to see in the British media being taken. We saw only a couple of days ago I retweeted this clip of, I think he's the chief of the general staff, so he's the head of the British Army on Sky News. He's being interviewed, and I think it's Kay Burley asked him about the Taliban, you know, how do we deal with this enemy?

And he says, oh, we mustn't call them the enemy because we wouldn't want to, that they promised to have an inclusive approach to... Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It seems to me, like the West is considering taking what you will certainly, and I consider a very cynical approach, which is saying, look, the Taliban have taken over, right? This is who's going to be there.

And in terms of our geostrategic interest, they're the people we have to deal with now. And they're going to do what they're going to do, and it's horrible, and we're going to put hashtags on Instagram and whatever. But the reality is we're going to deal with these people. We're going to bribe them or threaten them or do whatever we need to do to get them not to harbor terrorists. And apart from that, what are you going to do?

Do you think what's going to happen here? It's something I don't want to happen. No one wants it to happen. But I fear, and you're right, the fact that we withdrew Afghanistan so quickly, we took US lead here by claiming this was a US-led intervention. It had nothing to do with us. And, you know, they made the call. We just had to follow. And we couldn't do this on our own. You know, I get that. But where does Global Britain come into this? So where does this influential, leading humanitarian actor that we are around the world come into

this? And the fact that we have a history, a proud history of doing things like this on our own. why is suddenly we've become someone reliant on the US, first of all. Second of all, what's difficult for me, I think, as someone from Afghanistan is accepting that we've withdrawn militarily. But if you're going to withdraw politically and diplomatically in terms of humanitarian ways, well, I think that's shameful to only think of your political interest in something like this and not the human side of this. it is catastrophic, you know, we, I don't want the Taliban to be first of all seen as a legitimate government. But even if it is, I expect that once, that you've done this,

this catastrophe has always happened, already happened. But the least that I would expect is that you would monitor what's happening, you will keep an eye out, you will pressure them to not go back into their old ways and you will hold them to account. How? How do you pressure the Taliban not to go into their old ways? How do you do that? Well, I mean, you work,

you developed a relationship with them. Of course, that's important. You've got to engage with them. But by ensuring that, you know, there are repercussions for what, if they do go back, there are... So you have to threaten them that you're going to bomb them? Well, I was going to say back to the stone-

I think that's what the US has said that it would do, that if you do allow the country to become a safe haven for terrorism again, we will do that. But it's sad because the country just goes through cycle after cycle of war. It's just never ending. I feel for the people because it's not their call. It's not something. And sometimes we blame Afghans and say, you know, well, this is your country and you haven't been able to fix it. But it really isn't up to them.

It's never been up to the Afghan people. I know I'm coming across very cold and heartless, and it's because I am. And I'm Russian. But actually, I'm asking you these questions because I know this is what people are thinking at home, right? Because that's what people are thinking. And I think we're seeing certainly the political leaders going down the path of going, well, look, the Taliban have taken over. Like you said, we've got to engage with them.

And if they start allowing terrorists coming into camps and whatever, we'll bomb you. But apart from that, I just think we've kind of lost any levers of influence, haven't we, at this point, as the West? We have by allowing them to step in unconditionally. I think the mistakes were made when the peace process started. They asked for their prisoners to be released before they even started conversations. We agreed without negotiation. And imagine allowing a group of 5,000 prisoners to be released who were extremist, terrorist. murderers to release from prison during the negotiations because they said, well, we're not

going to sit around the table and talk to you until you do that. That was an error. How could you give in to something like that so quickly? Totally. Second of all, the US signs an agreement and says, we're going to leave, but sets no conditions. And there's no talk about compromise, no talk about changing ideology, no talk about accepting this new Afghanistan. You just said, as long as you don't touch our, you know, U.S. troops, you can do what you want.

It's shameful. I think my anger is more towards the U.S. than anything else. They've already shaped what kind of country they want to be moving forward. I don't think anyone's ever going to trust them to be a friend or an ally again. And I think Trump's, isolationism theory and the way he wanted America to be is what Biden is delivering on.

I think what was interesting was that when Trump was in power and he started this whole thing. Everyone thought, well, he's an evil man. He's this horrible individual. And he started this and he doesn't care. And everyone had so much hope that when Biden comes in, he's going to reverse this decision. He will put conditions on this peace process. He will do something or he will, he would just extend the withdrawal date to make sure there's a meaningful discussion. And actually he made it a thousand times worse. And every speech I hear from him about Afghanistan is so uncompassionate. So there's no understanding.

There's no care for what happens to the people of Afghanistan. And I think that's what makes it this even worse. It's infuriating to listen to someone who just doesn't give any, he doesn't care. And, yeah, I think America has already. shown us what kind of country it's going to be. And it's not going to be one that's a friend ever again, I think, to anyone. No one's going to trust the US again. Who's going to trust that the US will endure and persevere and stick it out when it's hard anywhere else in the world. And I think this is where Britain can step in. This is where when we talk about global Britain,

when we talk about this new identity that we have outside of the EU, we want to be more global. We want to work with other countries outside of Europe, along. comes with that a lot of responsibility. And I think potentially this will be an era for the UK to show a lot more independence, a lot more leadership that doesn't rely on the US. And Shabnan, what it was the future now going to hold for Afghanistan? This is Euphoria Calvin Klein, the new elixir collection, featuring three perfume intense scents, inspired by a unique orchid accord paired with vanilla, each with its own distinct attitude, each with its own universe, bold elixir, sent.

Woody, addictive, magnetic elixir, sweet and romantic like a lingering touch, solar elixir, a radiant expression of joy, ultra-concentrated for amplified impact and lasting power. Find your euphoria. Discover the euphoria elixir collection by Calvin Klein. I think from, I mean, in terms of on the ground, it's going to be a very bleak future. It's going to be a very difficult one, I know that for sure. And the Taliban, rule. This is not going to be an easy society. I mean, we saw the press conference from the Taliban. It was yesterday or the day before that. We know them saying that we've changed. We're going to allow women and girls to study and to work and that we will allow free press. But when it comes

to what they've actually been doing in action, it's completely different. I've heard, you know, stories of women being told they won't be working in as, as, as, you know, I've heard stories of women, been told they won't be working as presenters from Monday. You know, women and girls have been told to go back home and not go to school. And, you know, every argument they make is, you know, if you ask them if we'll have the people will have their rights, they say, well, under Sharia law, you will. So what does that mean? Because actually, the last 20 years, the government of Afghanistan actually had an Islamic

constitution. It was an Islamic government. So why is Taliban Islamic practices so different? What makes it different? That's still unclear. We still don't know what's the difference. But in terms of Afghanistan, moving forward, it's going to be a very, very, very difficult next few years,

if not next decade. I do foresee that Britain will step in. I think potentially it will form a new coalition. It's something that I'm hearing from MPs and from people who, you know, Tobias Elwood and Ben Wallace and a few others are looking at potentially seeing how the UK can step in without the US when the time comes and when it's needed. And that is what I'd like to see. I think there will be a time for sure that we will need to step in. Afghanistan historically has never been a country where it's been on its own for too long.

It's, you know, it hasn't been able to survive on its own. and it's one of the most dependent countries on foreign aid in the world. It can't survive. The institution and the infrastructure isn't there for it to have its own economy, to feed its people, to have a society and a system. It needs a foreign intervention to survive. And unfortunately, that's not something I want. I'm sure that's not what the people of Afghanistan want.

And I'm sure most of the people of Afghanistan didn't want NATO in the West to be stationed there forever. But when you do go and you spend 20 years, why would you wash that down the drain and then potentially start again from scratch in the next 10 years or less? It's just the reality of the country. It's the way it's always been. And what do you think China and Russia's role will be in this new Afghanistan? It's not going to be a good one, that's for sure. it's you know China is is looking at its own economic domination in the region so we'll be funding the Taliban, we'll be spending money in Afghanistan as long as potentially they agree not to meddle in their plans.

You always ask so much fucking depressing questions, mate. And Russia, the same I guess, Russian invention has never been a positive one anywhere in the world. Correct. So. What about Venezuela? How are they doing, me? Sorry, Shabnam.

No, it's okay. And, you know, you've got Iran on the other side who is so anti-West. Yeah. That it will do anything to make sure that we don't go back in there. And then you've got a proxy war with Pakistan who, you know, support, clearly have shown support to the Taliban. So Afghanistan is very, you know, it's stuck in the middle. Unfortunately, it's got. neighbors that don't really have its best interest at heart. And even in the last couple of days and

week, you know, let alone the West opening its borders, its neighbors haven't opened its borders. No one's allowing anyone to get out to some Central Asian countries, Iran or anywhere else. I think India has just started to see if it can issue visas. But what can you expect from anyone else when your own neighbors don't really want to let you through? So, yeah, it's going to be a difficult one. Well, look, you bring up an important issue, and I wish we had more time, but we'll finish talking about the refugee situation. And obviously, your family having come to the UK, and all of you are doing very well, you're making a huge contribution. It's such a pleasure to have you on the show. I know you'll feel strongly about it personally, but there's

also a bigger conversation to be had about it as well. So let's try and have that. Because, you know, my view is anyone who's worked with British or American forces deserves to to be given the opportunity to be safe from what will certainly be reprisals and they're gonna be murdered. But I've always, as a first generation immigrant like you, I've always felt that it is the job of the British government to ensure that the immigration system is fair

and is seen to be fair, including by the people of Britain. Yeah. Because when things like this happen, when there's genuine refugees, and there would be a few tens of thousands, it's not a huge number by the standards of a country, But if you've had this kind of drip, drip, drip effect of the last 15, 20 years where people feel like it hasn't quite been calibrated correctly.

I mean, Brexit, which I know you were a big fan of, partly was driven by the desire to control the immigration system. Do you fear now that some of the people who, I think you and I both agree, should be given an opportunity to come and to be safe and to be rewarded for risking their lives, essentially, to work with British and American forces, are probably not going to be given that opportunity because of the system that we've had

or do you think we will look after the people that we should look after? I think in terms of immigration, I completely agree with you. We've got to make sure that genuine asylum seekers who are fleeing war and conflict are given priority. Unfortunately, though, being part of the European Union

has meant that over the years, we've accepted people that were here as economic migrants and simply wanted a job or to study. and, you know, saw us then applied for asylum. And it did anger a lot of British nationals in terms of how can everyone coming here. And it does damage British infrastructure and its economy and its society. The UK is such a small island. It's tiny in comparison to Canada or the US or many of...

Or Russia. Or Russia. Or so many of the European countries, Germany, France, that we expect the UK to take everything. Now, I agree with that. You know, it's not fair. We have to also look after our own. A surgeon in immigration does mean that our health system takes the brunt. People then are in waiting lists for the NHS and schools and housing.

So I completely understand that I'm for that. But I think when it comes to a crisis like this, you've got to step in and show responsibility, particularly when the burden is on you because of the actions that you took and the decision you took. And in Britain's case, you left and you would draw Afghanistan. You weren't kicked out. You weren't forced out. You took that decision independently.

And as a result of that, the country's in crisis now. So I think it's important for us to make sure that we have, you know, we take our moral obligation is more important than anything else in a situation like this. So I would like to see the UK step. up, first of all, support those who served with the British government, with the army, and supported its mission in Afghanistan. But also those, I think the eligibility in terms of resettlement is a bit vague at the moment. And it's not, the remit isn't as expanded as it should be, because the young generation of Afghans who worked as journalists, who worked as teachers,

as activists, as worked in NGOs, those people who are very outspoken, very active in a social sort of in a public space, those people will be, particularly, I mean, their lives will be under threat because we, we went in there and supported them. We gave them the morale, we gave them the funding, the hope that this is the Afghanistan, we've shaped for you. And then you take that away, these people will be attacked because they developed under your supervision. So even though they didn't actually directly work with you, they became who they are through your support. So I think there's also that responsibility to make sure that those people that have become educated and flourished in this Afghanistan don't end up being killed because not only

will we have to start from scratch in the next couple of years if we do go back, but we'll also have to retrain and re-educate everyone again because the generation that we supported so much have all been lost and killed. So I think generally speaking, there is a huge moral obligation now to resettle and support those that need us. Shabnam, thank you so much for coming on the show. We really do appreciate it. We've got a few questions for our locals. But before we do that, we always end the interview with our final question, which is, what's the one thing we're not talking about, but we really should be? I think for me, it's making sure that we're we hear from the people of Afghanistan, not only in the inside, but outside. I think too much

sacrifice, too much time has been spent in the country. And so, I mean, Afghans are the second ranked refugees now, a population around the world. And there will be increasing now because of this. We've got to make sure that when it comes to the topic on Afghanistan, that we first and foremost hear from them. You know, sometimes these conversations happen. We hear from academics, we hear from politicians, we hear from anyone and everyone that isn't from Afghanistan, from spaces that I've sort of been in. And yes, you know, you've said to me that I'm here today and, you know, you've invited me and I'm an Afghan voice, but one person isn't enough. You need a lot more. You need a huge focus on the Afghan crisis, not only inside, but outside, because

this issue isn't going away anytime soon. And in order to find a best, you know, approach. If we do look at Afghanistan again, any time in the future, you've got to understand it's people, it's culture, you know, who they are, where they come from, what they believe in, and that's the only way to make sure that we don't make the same mistakes we made in the last 20 years. Thanks for coming on, Shabnam. Where can people find you and your work online, follow your commentary, etc? They can follow me on Twitter. Nasim, at Nassimi Shabnam, most of my workers on there. But yeah, and just follow me online. All right. Fantastic. Well, thanks for coming on and thank you all for watching at home and listening at home. We will see you very soon with another

brilliant episode. And of course, if you're on locals, we'll ask some bonus questions of Shadnam in a second. Take care and see you soon. We hope you've enjoyed this incredible interview. Remember to subscribe and hit the bell button so that you never miss another fantastic episode. And if you believe that the work we do here at trigonometry is important, support us by joining our locals community using the link below.