TRIGGERnometry - An Honest Conversation with a Hardline Feminist

Episode Date: February 3, 2022

Julie Bindel is a journalist, political activist and author of Feminism for Women: The Real Route to Liberation. SPONSORED by Pact Coffee - go to pactcoffee.com and use code "TRIGGER" to get a free V60 brewing kit with your order. Join our exclusive TRIGGERnometry community on Locals! https://triggernometry.locals.com/ OR Support TRIGGERnometry Here: https://www.subscribestar.com/triggernometry https://www.patreon.com/triggerpod Bitcoin: bc1qm6vvhduc6s3rvy8u76sllmrfpynfv94qw8p8d5 Buy Merch Here: https://www.triggerpod.co.uk/shop/​​​ Advertise on TRIGGERnometry: [e-mail] Join the Mailing List: https://www.triggerpod.co.uk/sign-up/​​​ Find TRIGGERnometry on Social Media:  https://twitter.com/triggerpod​​​ https://www.facebook.com/triggerpod​​​ https://www.instagram.com/triggerpod​​​ About TRIGGERnometry:  Stand-up comedians Konstantin Kisin (@konstantinkisin) and Francis Foster (@francisjfoster) make sense of politics, economics, free speech, AI, drug policy and WW3 with the help of presidential advisors, renowned economists, award-winning journalists, controversial writers, leading scientists and notorious comedians. 00:00 Intro 03:00 Feminism and violence 08:34 What is feminism actually? 12:13 Comparing two murder cases illustrates what feminism should be about 18:19 Why Ash Sarkar is not a feminist 21:18 Firefighter's uniforms, office temperature, gender pay gap 31:53 Why do ​the more trivial feminist issues seem more prevalent? 37:18 Oppression Olympics: how racial justice can harm feminist issues  41:31 Why "Sex work is work" is bullsh*t 51:53 The Labour Party and its disconnect from the working class 56:05 Snoop Dogg: can you be a feminist and be a fan? 57:48 The importance of conversations with people you disagree with 01:01:54 Why feminism is an optimistic movement 01:12:03 Rape Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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in the horrors of the global sex trade at a feminist conference in October, there were a load of blue fringes outside banging and screaming at the window shouting blow jobs are real jobs. What? Right, you don't do it then, mate. Hello and welcome to Trigonometry. I'm Francis Foster. I'm Constantine Kissin.

And this is a show for you if you want honest conversations with fascinating people. Our fascinating guest for you today is the author of this brilliant book, Feminism for Women, The Real Root to Liberation. Julie Binder, welcome to Trigonometry. Thank you very much. It's great to have you on the show. It's wonderful to be here. We'll get into all the feminist stuff in the second. But before we do, tell everybody who are you, how are you where you are? What has been your journey through life, Julie? I'm a journalist and I'm a feminist.

campaigner and I actually met feminists when I was 17 years old. I was actually looking for lesbians. And it was really... There was a bit of an overlap. There was so much of an overlap at the time. It was, let's just say it was indivisible. So looking for feminists when I moved to Leeds from a northeast town called Darlington, obviously it was a big exciting city and I went into an alternative bookshop and there were the lesbians. You could tell. short hair, ill-fitting jeans, miserable look on their faces, that kind of thing. And was thrown right in the deep end because these feminists at the time were protesting about Peter Sutcliffe, the Yorkshire Ripper, as he was known.

And he was killing women around the north, north of England. And the police had botched the investigation. So if your viewers don't know about the... the case. Socliffe killed 13 women, actually many more, but they remain unsolved, and left seven for dead. And he began by targeting the most vulnerable of women who he thought no one would care about. So street prostituted women. And of course, the police weren't that interested. I mean, they knew that these were serious crimes. But of course, these were women who were worthless and who no one was going to care about, which was not the case, because we cared

about these women and their families cared about them. And he then went on to kill women who weren't in prostitution. Some of them, young women and the press decided to label them innocent victims, which meant that the others, of course, were not. And some of these women, and this is why it was such a baptism of fire for me, becoming involved at the time that I did in 1979. is that some of the women weren't in prostitution, but they were seen as such because they had the nerve to go out drinking on their own and were enjoying sex with men.

So some of them were seen as good time girls. Well, that isn't how women are supposed to behave and certainly not in 1979 in the north of England or anywhere. So we were raging against the police for not actually catching this man because they were looking in all the wrong directions. We were raging against them and the press for telling us to be safe,

telling us to stay at home, telling the potential victims that we couldn't go out at night when in fact the home is the most dangerous place for women and girls. It's where we're most likely to be killed by a former or current male partner. It's where we're most likely to be sexually abused. Rape had not been.

rape in marriage had not been criminalised at that time. Things were dangerous in the home for women, and we wanted to reclaim the streets. And so we did. We marched around Leeds and other cities, with banners and placards saying men off the streets, end male violence, no to rape. And one night we did this great direct action,

which is that we mocked up a load of West Yorkshire police flyers. We put them everywhere on lampposts and doorways saying, men, there's a curfew. All men have to be in, off the streets at home by 8 o'clock tonight. And it worked for one night. The streets were free of men. Now, this might sound anti-men, but let me tell you why it was not. Because, of course, we shouldn't be responsible for our own safety. Men should not be raping. Men should not be killing. They shouldn't be making us feel scared.

What was happening at the time was while the feminists were going berserk about this killer and about the police and the press response, a lot of men, for example, Leeds Football Ground, Ellen Road, would be taunting the police, 10-0, 11-0,

as the victims stacked up. And they'd be shouting at women on buses, say if they hit on us, and we told them to go, fuck off. It would be, we hope the ripper gets you. Or I might be the ripper. And so what that whole time in Leeds did was it lifted up the stone

and outcrawled all the misogyny that had been there all along and that, of course, the feminist responded to. So that was my journey into, feminism and then further down the line, you know, I, for a long time, I worked in the grey economy. I was a very good shoplifter. You can't do that anymore. You know, the kind of technology got a bit too much for me. So I dropped that, a bit of check card frauding. And then I met my, my partner, who I'm still with, and she made me go to university. She said, you can't just hang around

doing this kind of thing, go and get a proper job. So I end up in just. journalism when I was about 40. I'm 59 now, so that's my... And here you are. Well, look, I'm glad you put that context to the whole feminist thing, because I wanted to ask you, we've talked about feminism a lot, particularly when we first started with people who are pro and critical of it to some extent. And I think when you were talking about the, you know, a mass murderer killing women and targeting women and the police not doing anything about it and men taunting, like, I think any sensible person listening to that

would be totally in support of that, that part of it. But I'm a bit younger. I didn't go through that experience. I didn't see that. And so when I encountered feminism as I matured, well, not mature, but as I became an adult, let's say, it was a different type of feminism at this point. And it felt like that, to me at least. It was, no one was talking about domestic violence anymore. No one was talking about this stuff. It was all about, you know, microaggressions in the workplace. Someone used the wrong word. The air conditioning isn't quite tailored enough to women's whatever. Do you see what I'm saying? So what is feminism actually? Because I think a lot of young men, maybe who don't have the background that you've just laid out, just see it as a sort of a bunch

of people whining about stuff that doesn't really matter. Excuse me. Yes, well, the microaggressions. progression thing is a clue, isn't it? It's micro. So it actually is almost invisible. So why worry? You know, we walk around being offended constantly, but would never worry about talking about it or calling anyone to task because you've just been slightly offended. Who cares? But that kind of feminism that you've described is a very pampered kind of version of, I mean, you see it a lot in the States, they call it lean-in feminism. So it's, oh, I'm only earning a million dollars a year and he's earning a million and a quarter. Okay, I don't actually care about those issues. Of course it's indicative of sexism. Of course if somebody else is getting a quarter of a million

quid a year more than a woman. Well, yeah, I mean, it probably possibly is. If they're doing the same job, then that is. If they're doing exactly the same job, but who actually cares at that level. So I care about the at the bottom. And feminism is for all women, of course, because all women, we're united by one thing only. Only, only, the fear and reality of male violence.

There is nothing else that unites women. I mean, bits of our biology. But really, that is it. And so, of course, a woman, however privileged and however wealthy she is, she can still be, to a lesser extent in many ways vulnerable to that abuse because her privilege doesn't protect her from that.

But whilst all women benefit from feminism, some women need a damside more. And I'm sick of hearing the type of, we used to call them shoulder pads in the 1990s. There's women that are extremely senior in their work that talk about issues that can only matter to them, whilst not caring about other women at all. So they would no sooner look at impoverished women who don't have the kind of job where they would ever be given maternity benefits

than they would any other kind of oppressed or minority group. They just care about their own privilege. One of the reasons that I wanted to bring you on, Julie, was when we were appearing on GB News together, and you were talking about male violence towards women, particularly at home. And that's something we don't really talk about anymore. And it's always been in our society. And I think over the last year and a half due to lockdown, it's got significantly worse because for a lot of women, being able to go to work, being able to go and see people, being able to go and meet up for a coffee, to those types of women, that is their sanctuary, that is their escape. And all of a sudden, over lockdown, that disappeared. And all they

had was so high. It's true. It's that kind of isolation that gets even more extreme. So for example, the way that we look at levels of serious male violence, it's actually very straightforward. We look at the morgues. We look at how many deaths there are. We look at how many women are dying at the hands of men. We call it femicide, which means women and girls that die because they're women and girls, and they're killed by men. It could be sons. It's usually partners or ex-partners. But during lockdown, I think a lot of, as you've said, a lot of the relative freedom that women had to escape, disappeared. But also it gave some men who are violent a ready excuse for their violence. See, we've heard it over the years.

He only hits me when he's drunk. Well, you know, I've been drunk a few times. I haven't lamped anyone. And obviously he's not going into work and lamping his boss. He's choosing to do it to his wife or his kids. The man called Anthony Williams, who, I think in his 60s, got a bit depressed during lockdown. I mean, didn't we all? And he decided to strangle his wife.

He said, he argued, no history of domestic violence. Well, there possibly wasn't a history of domestic violence, but there was certainly a lot of control in that relationship from what we understand. So he started to throttle his wife in the bedroom. She saw he meant business, so she ran. ran from him, was fumbling with her key in the door to get out. And he caught up with her. So he'd had that distance between her running away and finished the job, killed her. And he was successful in his defence against murder.

He was convicted of manslaughter. He was given four years and five months, I think, because he said that he was a bit depressed. There was no need for a psychiatric. report saying that that was clinical depression, the court just accepted his word. Now, contrast that with Sally Challon. I don't know if you've heard this Chellen case, right? Well, 2010, you'll have seen it at the time.

It was everywhere. A middle class, white, seemingly very kind of public school educated, she's been to finishing school, woman in her 50s, her blood gender husband to death with a half. hammer, totaled him, went to beechy head with a very, very sincere desire to throw herself over and kill herself. She was talked down, she was put on trial, she was convicted of his murder. And every single newspaper report ran the same kind of line, deranged, hammer, horror, killing, blah, blah, blah. you know, there was the usual kind of, he seemed like a nice man, there was no violence.

And then the organisation that I set up with others in 1990, Justice for Women, we looked to campaign for and represent women who've killed as a response to male violence. And we look at how they've been treated by the courts. So we just waited, we knew we'd get a letter from Sally Chalyn or somebody related to her. A couple of weeks later it came from her cousin. Can you represent Sally? She was in a terribly abusive relationship with this man for four decades. And that's interesting, isn't it, the kind of language we use,

that somebody's in an abusive relationship. It's not actually an abusive relationship. He's the abuser. She's not in that relationship. He's doing it to her. And when we are, uncovered the detail of her life with Richard Chalyn, it was horrific. And it could have been there for the courts to see. I mean, the first thing, and this definitely is not the most serious,

but what would you think if you went round to a friend's house, a married couple, like Sally and Richard, and you saw on their mantelpiece a picture of him sitting, a stride, a sport, a red sports car with either side of him two bare-breasted dolly birds wearing nothing but thongs. What would you think to that in the family home? It's not really right, is it? He sent that Christmas card to all their friends and relatives and put that there for her to look at every day. He'd anally raped her as punishment for her being kissed by one of his friends. Wasn't her choice. He just happened to walk in on it. He had belittled her, demeaned her, psychologically tortured her for decades. Their sons testified to this. Her son David campaigned on her

behalf. She was given life for murder. We eventually got that overturned, but she'd served 10 years in prison. So if you compare those two cases, it tells you what what feminism should be about, not the microaggressions, not the women at the top, but the women who are actually going through this and are being discriminated against and blamed when they do fight back or just try to defend themselves. And why is it then that we focus in on the microaggressions? Why don't we talk about these issues,

which are really important and which affect women? Well, you see, proper feminists do. Look, there are hundreds of ways to be a feminist, but most of them are wrong, right? Every fucker could call themselves a feminist. And they do. And they do. And the reason why they do it, I mean women, but even some men,

is to then spout the worst kind of anti-feminism, but with authority. So one example, Ash Sarkar. The... We know. We know. Navarra Media and Pandit, Media Pandit. I'm sure that she's a highly intelligent woman of talent. and, you know, I do not judge her for that at all, but she's not a feminist.

She really isn't a feminist. She's a trans activist. She's a luxury communist, so whatever she calls herself. But just because she's a woman with a big mouth does not mean she is a feminist. Now, I'll give you one little example. I mean, there are millions I could use. I mean, the mad nonsense she spouts about how male sex offenders that identify as women are no danger to really vulnerable women in prison settings, for example.

That's just one. So anyway, I tweeted something in response to her two or three years ago, where she was saying, trans women are no danger at all in the women's prison estate. And I just tweeted, well, unless you're a vulnerable woman who obviously is sexually assaulted by one of them. And the next thing, somebody alerted me to her tweet, which was a thing of beauty.

She'd done a search on Twitter, not even on Google. This is her journalism, really kicking in. She'd put the name of a prisoner who'd taken her own life, a case that I knew about, that I'd campaigned on behalf of. And she'd put my name. And when it didn't come up with a hit of me tweeting about this woman,

she said, here we go, these transphobes, don't care about women in prison. They only care about being transphobic. And immediately she was piled on. Even by my enemies, you said, oh, I think Julie Bindle has actually, since before you were born, Ash, set up justice for women,

has helped loads of women get out of prison, and campaigns for prison reform. So I think you've got that wrong. So arrogant, didn't correct it, didn't take it down, didn't apologize. which actually is quite admirable. But she will say she's a feminist and she'll say it in order to completely discredit

any of the work I do or the women that also campaign against male violence. That's what they do. Male feminists as well. They'll do their same. They're the worst. Billy Bragg. That dickhead.

Julie, you know what you're talking about speaks to so much of the other things we've discussed on the show where it seems like everywhere you look now, you have these posers, these people who have, they take a pose in public, and because of that, they have a large following and whatever.

And there are other people who are doing actual real work on the ground whose work in many ways is being undermined by the posers who are doing this. And I certainly feel that way, because when you were talking about Sally, Sally Challenge, Sally Challen, I'm horrified to hear the story, let alone the different treatment judicially, just the story itself is horrific, obviously. But to me, I don't even see that and forgive me as a feminist issue. To me, that's an issue of injustice.

Of course it is. Right. But when you have people running around talking about how feminism is about the wrong temperature in the office or whatever it is, it puts people like me off the whole thing, if I'm honest with you, right? And I think it undermines the cause that you are advocating for, which is clearly necessary. Well, the way I look at it, because I don't particularly agree with you on one level, because of course, sexism is one thing, misogyny is another. And all misogynists are sexist, but not all sexists are misogynist. I'm one of those, I think.

I think I'm another. So, you know, Caroline Craddo Perez wrote a great book about, the temperature in the office. You know, I don't mean to be facetious. It's actually a really important book because she tells us things that I certainly hadn't known just about the way that firefighters, uniforms are not designed for women,

so therefore when you have female firefighters, their uniforms don't fit them. Now, that is a small thing compared to sending a woman to life for responding to male violence or looking at rates of famicide in Russia, which is one of the highest in the world. But it still is an indication of sexism. And of course, sexism can lead to real discrimination

and it can lead to worse than these kind of attitudes. I mean, wolf whistling. Julie, may I pause you that just for one second? You'll be very welcome to carry on with your point. I want to flesh us out because we talk about this in other context as well in the issue of race. or whatever, where people automatically assume often that a disparity means discrimination. So I don't know if this is true and correct me if I'm wrong, but I would imagine the reason

that firefighters' uniforms are designed for men is historically the overwhelming majority of people attracted to that profession and for a period of time allowed to be in that profession were men. And therefore, it's just a default setting. It's not because people sat down and when we hate women or we are against women or we don't respect women. Of course. Right. So is that really sex is more? Is it just like a sort of, you know, this is the default setting because not many women have been in this profession. And as it becomes more even if it ever does, that will be taking care. Do you see what I'm saying? I do. And the only reason why women are in the fire service at all is because feminists campaigned against the kind of discrimination.

that would prevent women from being in the fire service. I mean, to be honest with you, the kind of feminism I got involved in very early on, as I mentioned at the beginning, is what I see is the life and death issues. And I can't get whipped up about equal pay. I care about the women who are on zero contract hours. Obviously, I don't really get whipped up about the other stuff

that isn't as kind of dramatic. No, do I. It's just you called it sexism, and I was just like, is it not? I think it's sexism. I think it is all sexism. I think that some effects on women, some of it affects women more than others. If there is a default position which favours men, then clearly that sexism.

Why? Because if you look at, for example, Billy Bragg, who argues he decided he had to explain to women what feminism was, last International Women's Day, I think. And he was saying... Timing great. It's perfect.

And he's double denim. And he was saying, look, you know, feminism is about equality for all. Well, it isn't. It's about actually liberation for women. Equality for all. What does that mean? Where's the default position?

There has to be something that you are aspiring to be equal to. And if that's men, then that means that men are the default position, which means that women, are discriminated against in relation to that. But like I say, you know, you can measure the effectiveness of feminism by seeing whether or not we've made a difference in terms of the scale and prevalence of rape, domestic violence, feminicides, forced marriage, FGM,

all of the issues that affect women and girls because we're women and girls, which is why the idea that you can just identify into a gender is so ludicrous. Because, you know, tell that to a girl in a menstrual hut in Nepal. You know, tell that to the dead body in the morgue who's killed because she's dishonoured her family in Kurdistan. It's nonsense. I totally get you. And I know it feels like I'm honing in on a trivial issue, but I'll tell you why I'm doing it. My concern is that if we call everything sexism, then nothing is sexism.

I agree. I absolutely agree with that. And I think that there's a type of whinging approach to... That's what I'm getting at, right? Yeah. And see, the thing is, this is my sticking point. I still think it's sexism, but I don't really care. But why is it sexism, Julie? Why is it sexism? Because it is suggesting that women are of less importance than men. So if you have something that's kind of set out for men's convenience, for no good reason. But there is a good reason,

which is the overwhelming majority of firefighters and men. But why? No, I'm not disputing that. Of course there would have been some women who would have been prevented. How do you give the shit? No, I agree with you, Julie.

The reason that I'm picking up on this is I do think language is important. Yes, it is. I agree. So if you're going to insist on calling it sexism, I'm not disputing that. I want you to explain to me why so I can understand. Because right now I don't. See, it's chicken and a little.

egg, isn't it? Because obviously, if the majority of any particular profession or trade are men, then things are set up for them. It's like the issue about there was one female loo in the House of Commons. Because of course there were no female MPs. It was probably there for the cleaner or the caterer or something. And now, of course, there are more female MPs that they want more loos. But honestly, I would fall asleep in the middle of complaining about that.

I mean, not if I was a female MP, but it just isn't on my radar. But it's clearly an indication of the fact that women were shut out of much public life. They were. They were. But is it still sexism today that uniforms are not made for women in the same way that they are for men? You know, I think that there's different ways in which you can put women off a particular trade, particular profession. You know, there are extreme ways and there are subtle ways. I mean, the extreme way was the Montreal Massacre of 1989. in which 14 female engineering students were shot dead by, who was effectively the first in-cell that we ever heard about, resented women because they had shut him out of the profession he felt he was entitled to.

And that's a really extreme example of how there's this sense of male entitlement, which means that women will feel less entitled. Yeah, all of that I'm behind you completely 100%. I just, it's part of the conversation that's ever present in society, how whenever there's a disparate, like for example, there's an issue for black women who are more likely to die giving birth. And it's automatically assumed that that's because of racism. Is it? We don't know. I mean, people have different biological things.

There's different things going on. And also, of course, ethnic minorities like me and immigrants like me are a tiny minority of the population. So, of course, the default setting would be for the people who've been here for thousands of years. I mean, give you an example. When I go to the dentist, they can never knock me out, knock the jaw out. properly because I've got an Eastern European jaw structure. And it was only when I met a dentist who understood this, an Indian guy as it happens, he knew how to do it.

He's the first dentist in the UK who could do that. Is that racism against Russians or whatever? You just reminded me of something. When I first met the woman who was, my partner's mother, which was back in 1987, and they're, excuse me, Polish Jews, and I have heritage from Russia. she said, oh, I could tell you had Russian heritage. You've got a very square jaw. And I thought, thanks very much.

Thanks ever so much. But I never had any trouble with the dentist. Do you see what I'm saying, right? No, I understand. And I think that that happened with COVID also, where one thing was very clear. The reason why so many people are colour who were dying in the beginning who were health workers is because of the proportion of those who are from minorities that work in particular jobs at particular levels in the health service.

And that tells its own story. But then they started to become this discourse about how COVID was almost racist itself by targeting people of colour and black people. And obviously you have to look right behind the story. But there was much of that. And I think The Guardian ran several pieces that just didn't stand up. And it was very, it was histrionic and it was dripping in, the kind of sentiment that isn't helpful.

So yeah, I mean, I agree with your broad point. Francis, take over me. I've asked about 20 questions in a row. So we've covered firefighters. You had bad cop. You never talked about firefighter. Bad firefighter. Bad firefighter. Here's the good firefighter. Okay. So why is it, let's go back into this, because this is important.

Why is it that feminism focuses on the trivial, the banal? the things that I consider to be unimportant, why does it ignore the very real and the very important issues that affect women? For instance, FGM, I've got my own opinions about that. But why is it we don't talk about this in a full frank and honest manner? Okay, well, there's two answers to that question. One is that many of us do. So I'm connected to feminist networks all over the world almost. I mean, even in Saudi Arabia, there are active feminists.

Wow. And everywhere in the world, because of course there is no country in the world that is free from the type of issues that we've been talking about now, rape is in existence in the richest and most equal countries right through to the worst to live if you're a woman. So those of us that campaign to end male violence in all our different kind of roles are very loud and vocal. and we have actually created material change. We've introduced legislation. We monitor those that are supposed to implement the law. We've raised awareness, all of that.

But there are also those feminists that don't really want to get their hands dirty. So they might look at the softer issues. So they spend all of their time bleating on and I'm going to be so hated for this about the type of maternity cover in very elite professionals. Now, it goes without saying that I believe that women should have maternity cover and maternity benefits.

But it's the type of women, for example, when I was doing some consultancy in a charity that deals with the trafficking and sexual exploitation of women into the UK, there was one woman in this charity and, oh, was she entitled. and she had three babies in a row very, very deliberately within a timeframe so that she would get the maximum benefits and maternity leave at a charity that was failing because it was underfunded, where the women who the charity was serving were the most disenfranchised and impoverished imaginable and this extremely privileged woman milked it she had her own low stool with her everywhere she went she was going to the Pilates that was on offer she was taking time off

every single minute that she could to go to her appointments with the doula or whatever and i was so angry about that and yet if i'd have said you should put a cap on how many the tranches of maternity leave these women should have i would have been seen as Hitler, of course, because it's never a mid-range dictator. We go straight to Hitler. And that really winds me up. But it would be extremely unfair and actually neoliberal of me to say, you should put a cap on this because, of course, these benefits are supposed to be for all women. But she didn't need that. She used that charity, knowing if she went to the private sector, she would get far less.

They'd be far less generous with her about it. That isn't a feminist thing to do in my view. So I think sometimes it's complicated. But then there's other women that just bleat on about things that you think, well, this is only going to benefit you if you solve this problem. This actually doesn't apply to most women. Most women aren't in the types of jobs that you are talking about wanting to be paid more in or have more annual leave from or be able to leave every day at 3 o'clock

to go and pick up little Millie and Little Oscar, you know, from their fee-paying school. So on a class basis, you know, if we look at the issue of class, some of the most elite women will practice the feminism that is only ever going to be beneficial

to them and their... Straits of society. Exactly, yeah. Hey, Constantine, do you love trigonometry? Of course. incredible interviews, hilarious live streams, hard-hitting satire plus my handsome jawline. Whatever takes away from your hairline. But if you do love trigonometry and you want to support us, there's only one place to do that,

and that's on Locals. Yes, Locals is a brilliant platform that has been incredibly supportive to our show and other problematic creators. The great thing about locals is that it's a community for people who love trigonometry. That's right. It's a place for you to hang out with like, minded people, share thoughts, memes and discuss the show. You can enjoy it for free, but it also gives you the option of supporting us for as little as $7 a month. And if you want to give more, you can.

We have incredible rewards for our higher tier supporters as well. We've got everything for mugs, monthly group calls and one on two chats with me and KK. Get in. Join our community by hitting the link in the description and the pin comment below. See you there, guys. What I also find interesting is how they don't want to, this particular brand of feminist doesn't want to criticize cultures or practices in other cultures because they're terrified of being seen as racist and not as an ally. And you go, well, that to me is racism because you're not treating everyone equally. Well, it's worse even than not wanting to speak out about it.

They actually endorse some of these practices. they will twist something in an Orwellian manner that's quite staggering. For example, they'll support the notion that the full face veil is empowering to women and it's a fuck you to the West. When in fact there are women in Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Bradford, that are being coerced into wearing the full face fail who are fighting with other feminists to stop that being imposed on girls because it is an infringement of their freedom.

and it is an insignia of women's oppression. It is not a symbol of fuck you to the West. I mean, it may well be that that's the sentiment that a particular individual wearing the full face veil feels, but it's imposed upon a woman. And another example, a few years ago, I read a tiny little news item in the English Norwegian newspaper. Don't even ask me why I was reading English-speaking Norwegian.

I must have been really bored that day. and it was that Norway is about to become the first Jew-free country in Europe. Jews are leaving, getting out of Norway, the anti-Semitism is terrible. And I thought, oh, I'll go and have a look at that because I hadn't heard. I had some contacts there. And obviously, I mean, it was they were focusing on visible Jews, so religious Jews in the main. Hasides, I assume. So I trots along to Norway.

and went to the one kosher restaurant, which turned out to be a brickerback store with a table that you could sit six around that served on a Wednesday and a Monday, kosher chicken, whatever, talked to the people there that run the shop, and they told me what the story was. So I just had it in my head

that were these groups of overt anti-Semites raging around Oslo saying Jews out. And in fact, what it was was that the influx of young men who were coming from Middle Eastern countries who were very, very angry about the state of Israel and about Israelis, because obviously they couldn't distinguish between the policies of the government and Israeli citizens. And further, they couldn't distinguish between Israeli Jewish citizens and the Jewish diaspora. were burning Israeli flags outside the embassy and all of that kind of carry on.

And the white Norwegian woke men and some women, but mainly men, saw their brown brothers who were clearly the oppressed Palestinian Arabs and wanted to support them. That kind of knee-jerk thing of not even doing their research and looking at what they were supporting.

and they were marching through Oslo on a regular basis behind angry men with signs in Arabic saying kill the Jews. Now they didn't know because they didn't read Arabic but actually they could have done a little bit of research to see what they were supporting, couldn't they? And so what the Jewish community in Oslo and the rest of Norway were thinking was

okay we don't even have the white liberals on our side anymore. Jews have always had those Gentile liberals that will be appalled at anti-Semitism. We don't even have that, we're going. And, you know, of course, ironically, many of them migrated to Israel. It's what happens when you have an impression Olympics. People can pip you to the thing, right? And that's what's happened.

No, it's... But again, why is it? And I feel very passionate about this, because we're not talking about the issues that really impact women. We're just not. And what you have is this surface level of crap which is being fed to us.

And that's what we think feminism is. That's what we think it is. And it's not. Well, it's bullshit. That's why I wrote my book. And that's why I called it feminism for women. Because what we've ended up with is a feminism that benefits men more than it does women.

It's all this pole dancing for exercise. Sex work is work. Trans women are women. All of those issues are really crucial for feminists to get a proper grip of. So take the issue of prostitution. The discourse around this from the faux feminists, Ash Sarkar and all of her mates,

is sex work is work. It's a job. It's a profession. I mean, when I did a talk on prostitution and the horrors of the global sex trade at a feminist conference in October, there were a load of blue fringes outside banging and screaming. at the window shouting blow jobs are real jobs. What? Right, you don't do it then, mate. You go and get an unwashed dick into your mouth and tell me that you'd rather do that eight times a day

than be a researcher or an academic or a journalist or whatever. Why the hell are you supporting something that has such a horrendous effect on millions of women around the world and sets a context where women's bodies are seen as orifices to rent and to sell. You know, it's an appalling issue that many sex trade survivors so women who have actually done prostitution are now, thankfully, educating the world about the realities of this. You know, I know loads of the women. I've interviewed hundreds of them.

And they will say, look, when I was in prostitution, I used to say, hey, I love my work. Fuck off, don't you dare judge me. Of course you do. I mean, you're coping in a horrific. situation. But when they get out, and if they're supported enough to be able to do that from other women, then they'll say it was hell. And no woman should have to go through this. And yeah, of course, you've got the odd exception. There's always an exception, isn't there? The Brooke Magnanti,

Belle de Jure type. She's, you know, funding her PhD. She prostitutes from five-star hotels and Park Lane. She's totally atypical. She's a tourist. Right. And, and she's a tourist. And, and she's a And yet she speaks with authority, just like those women who aren't feminists, but call themselves feminists. I mean, I've known women who say, I'm a feminist, I did sex work, blow jobs are real jobs. And when you look into what she's actually been involved in, she was doing her doctoral studies on phone sex lines. So she sat on the end of her phone sex line for six weeks saying, yes, I've got my tits out. Have you got your dick out, big boy? Hopefully not with that intonation, Julie, because that's not a very good service.

Is that not how they're taught? I don't think so. I mean, maybe some people might like, too. Yes, big boy. I didn't want to excite your viewers. Yeah, you want to excite your viewers. I have a friend who, when I make the wanking sign, she always says, I'm not doing it right. And I say, how should I know?

I've been a lesbian since forever. I see what you're saying. They're not people who've experienced the horrors of the sex trade in the way that the women you're trying to protect and stand up for and defend and advocate for actually experience. So if you get an academic who sits on the phone line for a few months talking, that's not the same as being a street prostitute with all of that, everything with that entails.

But also more than that even. Some of them just masquerade. Some of them lie. Some of them are. I really do call them tourists. in it. They nip in and out of it and then they adopt the label. So I was in Nevada

where in certain counties within the state of Nevada, they've had legal brothels forever beginning with a gold rush and of course Dennis Hoth the biggest pimp in the world who thankfully is dead now who was a real

piece of work who ran these brothels and terrorised the women and he was seen as just this great businessman. He was normalising the sex trade. He was making it into a great profession. And he said yes when I asked if I could go and research his brothels. Clearly hadn't Googled me. I rock up and he's trying to be Mr. Charming and said, you can interview my girls. But he'd primed them to, you know, these women, they live in these

brothels for months on end. They're not there because there's another choice waiting for them. They're there because that's the only way they can make money and they need that money. And many of them are double pimped, so their pimps send them to the legal brothels where the pimps are businessmen. So it's a horrific system. And the women are no safer than under any other kind of criminalised regime. So when I was there and saw the reality of it and the women told me it was like a, one of them said it was a pussy penitentiary. You can't even leave the brothel unless you're with an assistant pimped going to town. You have your blood test every week to see if you've got any STIs and your name with the results are put up for all to see at the reception

area. You do a line up when the Johns, the punters come in and you have to stand there not smiling and wait until they pick you. I mean, just like cattle. And in the meantime, there's somebody at the University of Nevada who's doing her PhD on sex work. And in order to research it, she goes into the brothels, turns a few tricks, does a few jobs, and interviews the women and then leaves and completes her PhD and says, hey, I'm a sex worker. And guess what her PhD was on? It was on the ability of women to orgasm during sex work. And she found that if you're over 40, you're more likely to orgasm during sex work than if you're under 40.

I think that's the way around. But imagine doing that. Imagine taking years out of your life to show something that is blatantly untrue. By asking a woman, do you enjoy when you have sex with a punter? Well, guess what they're going to say? I love it. I love my job. And this is now a PhD thesis that will be read by young students

who are being fed this sex work is work bullshit while books like mine on prostitution and other critical feminists are having trigger warnings put on them in some universities because we say it's abuse of women. it's a human rights violation. It's crazy. This is such a good point, Judy, because if you remember the case of Durham University, which was, now, correct me if I'm getting it wrong, but they were advising students how to go into sex work and how to do it safely.

That's right. And these are girls of 18, 19, 20. Now, they may be adults, but you're not telling me that someone of 18, 19, is aware of the full ramifications of this type of work. particularly in the internet age. And if that was my daughter, I would personally drive, oh, I can't drive. I'd get the train myself in order to strangle them. Because to me, that is abuse.

Why is it? We have just normalized this. And all of a sudden, we're like, hey, an 18, 19 year old girl, come in. Yeah, exactly, mainly because of academics. But they are, many of them take funding directly from the sex trade to do this research. And of course, what the pimps and the, you know, the, you know, the profiteers want is blanket decriminalisation and total normalisation. Because of course they do.

I mean, this is just about profit. It's about money for them. So for Durham University to say, here's how you become safe in sex work, is like telling some bloke that you should go and work in an asbestos-ridden factory and here's how to wear proper protective gear. It's not safe. It's not safe under legalisation.

It's not safe under any regime except for, where you're actually throwing the kitchen sink at the women to help them get out. And the idea that universities are encouraging this, when for many women, working class women, the women that could well have ended up being sexually exploited, see education as a way out of that and something to give them better opportunities. It's disgraceful. And they don't want to do it.

So the academics in their ivory towers, why don't they just set up a brothel? why are they on an academic salary? It's an interesting point, Julian. It's a point, again, which speaks to so many of the other things we've been discussing on the show for years now, which is the gigantic disconnect between the media and the political class and the academic institutions

and actual people in the actual real world. And, you know, you saw it with Brexit. And as everyone knows, Francis and I both voted Remain. And there was all this stuff about, you know, we'll be better off by 1% if we stay in and all. And you're just going, you people don't understand what actual people in the real world they're experiencing. And that's why I think there's a lot of skepticism now

about things to do with COVID. Because I wrote a massive long thread on Twitter about it. You've undermined trust in all of these institutions, the academia, the media, the politicians. And now you're telling people to do stuff. Well, a lot of them are going, well, you lied about everything else. Yeah. I mean, it's a real worry.

You know, I think once we know that our politicians can lie to us and not even lie about lying to us, then that's it. You know, we're done for. And it used to be that it was a huge scandal when politicians were found out lying now. It's just expected. And it's becoming more and more Trumpian. And that's the thing that really worries me. And, you know, I feel politically homeless.

You know, I couldn't. If there was a German election tomorrow, I'd, I think I'd have to force myself to vote Labor, but why? I mean, it's a disgrace of a party. It doesn't represent working-class people anymore. It used to. And it does not in any way. And that's why, of course, so many traditional working-class people,

like all of my family and my community where I grew up, some of them moved to UKIP, some of them even moved Tory for God's sake. I mean, that was unthinkable when I was growing up. would never have a Tory anywhere near where we worked and lived and played. And Julie, you say the Labour Party used to represent working class people. What period are you talking about? Because I would imagine there were a lot of people who felt that even Tony Blair coming in

was already starting to undermine now. But with Tony Blair, the argument was, well, at least he's going to get you elected. He's going to get you on power. He's going to put money into public services, which, to be fair to him, he did. I have a lot of issues with Tony Blair a lot. But on that stuff, he did deliver for ordinary people. question about it. But what you've got now is a party that are simultaneously disconnected from working class people and absolutely useless when it comes to getting elected. And really bad

for women. Right. Really bad. Blair really gave a damn about the Northeast. He was the first leader, I think, that really focused on issues that were usually just stepped over. You know, Scotland has always been favoured over the north-east of England, and yet we hear the voices from Scotland way louder than we do the voices from the north-east of England. And my community is much worse off. But it's a good question when? Well, I mean, Blair did bring in so many policies that helped impoverished and working-class people. There's no question about that.

And I also have issues with him. But I think that, you know, to dismiss somebody's entire body of work is tragic. And the Iraq war is no small thing. We absolutely know that. But to throw every single thing out is indicative of the whole council culture context, where you have someone who has done brilliant work for decades, but they're transphobic. which is usually bullshit anyway. And therefore, nothing that they have ever done in the past or to date can ever be considered worthy.

How the hell did we get to this? We see the way that some people have contributed hugely to culture. and they have done no small bad thing. You know, often they have committed terrible acts of violence towards women, children, whatever. And up until about a decade ago, even the hard line feminist like me wouldn't dismiss absolutely everything that that person had done because they had also committed a heinous act. or had a particularly hideous view.

So now we strive for perfection. But who are the people demanding this? What do they do? They sit on Twitter. They sit behind their keyboards. They contribute nothing material to the world, a lot of them. That is such a beautiful point. You know what?

Francis said to me, oh, let's get Julian. She's fierce. And you'll probably disagree with her a lot. And look, there will be stuff that we disagree. But I'm really appreciating. I can tell that you're a person who thinks for themselves and who's authentic about what they say. And I love that.

I really enjoy that conversation. And this is such an important point because we were having this argument just the other day. You know, there are people who have committed terrible acts against children particularly, but created great music or great art and whatever. I don't know what to do with that. I don't.

I don't have an answer. What do we do with those people? How do we, do we cancel their music? Do we stop listening to their music? Do we, you know, what do we do as a society with people who've done something terrible? Yeah, I mean, on a kind of, I suppose, less extreme level, the music of Snoop Dog.

So I love rap and hip-hop. Me too. And I love Snoop Dog. And I went to Glastonbury to interview him and went to his concert a few years ago. And there were some feminists that were horrified. How can you be a feminist? Well, sorry, Godfather 2 is my face.

favorite film. What do you mean? How can you be a feminist and like the music of Snoop Dog or like a particular film? It's called entertainment and it's called being selective with what you like and don't like. So I don't actually like Snoop Dog's lyrics when he calls women hoes and bitches. Kel's surprise. But I kind of can manage to navigate what I do like without saying I actually like Snoop Dog's music, which means I like him calling women hoes and bitches. I mean, we do this all the time. And it used to be perfectly acceptable to have friends with whom you profoundly disagree. Do you remember those guys?

I like some Tories. I mean, actually, one of the T-shirt slogans that really winds me up is never kissed a to Tory. Well, I don't think I've ever kissed a Tory either. but there are some that I actually quite like as individuals as human beings whose company I enjoy. And when did that stop being all right? Because isn't that how we get to know whether or not we've shifted our opinions on things? And I suppose some people are just so arrogant that they think I've formed all of my opinions.

They're all correct and that's it now. They're stagnant and they'll never change. I mean, I think I'd probably shoot myself if I ever became at talk. story. But, you know, I understand, I learn from people, I hope. For example, when I met my partner's father, Ernest Wistrich, he got written into Europe with George Soros in the 70s. He ran the referendum. And he taught me so much about Europe, because I used to go mad. When I started going to European Parliament and saw the fat cats and saw some of the things that we really would have wanted to reform if we'd remained.

I used to go absolutely berserk. And he would explain things to me about how things worked. He was head of the European movement for a long time. And of course, I was pro-European. But what I didn't understand until we had these conversations was how he became such an ardent European. And it was so we didn't ever have another inter-European war. and that's the bit that's missing from a lot of the kind of pro-remain arguments.

You know, Ernest, his family, some of his family perished in the Holocaust. He got out in time. His mother was there, you know, was in Poland throughout the war in hiding. And just by listening to him talk about these things, I really shifted my position on some of that. And we would also have conversations. He was a liberal. And he defended pornography.

And in fact, my mother-in-law, Enidwistrich, she was under Ken Livingstone's GLC. She opposed Mary White House. The two were loggerheads over censorship. So she would just pass all the films. You know, that one's fine, that's fine, that's fine, there was all kinds of, like, rabid bonking and sadism going on. needed to say, no, as a good liberal, I want, you know. But actually, we, we would talk about that as,

you know, two feminists, anti the porn industry and these two ardent liberals, and we shifted their positions also. So we'd have these great conversations across big issues, and we would change each other's minds. You're going to make me cry, Julie. You are. I miss those days. That's what we try and do on this show, you know. And I, like I say, I've really enjoyed the conversation because I crave this. I miss this. And the fact that society no longer allows us to do this in public, to me that's a crime. I agree.

That's criminal that we can't have, because you've come in here and I'm someone who makes jokes about feminism all the time. You've actually shown me there are bits of feminism that are absolutely fucking essential. Absolutely essential. And they need to be addressed. And, you know, we've had, we have a close friend of ours who's a woman. very, very high-achieving woman, single mum of, you know, doing great. And she's someone who's not, I don't think I would say that she's a feminist. But when she was talking about domestic violence, you know, you sit and listen and you go,

okay, this is a bit that I was missing. You know, that's what we need more of. We need conversation. I agree. Yeah. And actually the biggest myth about feminism and feminist like me is that we're man-haters. We are the most optimistic political movement on the planet because we don't actually think that boys are born programmed

to hate or hurt or abuse women. Not at all. And we know that those men, even those that are entrenched in misogynistic points of view, and they are in the minority, that we can all change. We can all look back and think, whoa, I used to be X, Y, and Z.

And actually, that was really unhealthy and I feel so much better now that I've ever. actually thought about it a bit more, all of us. So actually, feminists are the opposite of manhating. We hate the abuse that is, is condoned and justified by some men, as well as those that carry out the abuse. But we absolutely celebrate the fact that we can also work with men to challenge these, you know, this state of play. So we are, we're very lovely, actually, as a problem. We're so nice. So the question that I want to ask, and the last one is,

what do we do about an industry like prostitution? What do we do about it, Julie? Because the reality is we have male libido. Male libido is what it is. It's the oldest profession in the world, quote, unquote. What do we do about it? Yeah. This is where...

Oh, he's good again. Well, it's a crucial question. Yeah. And the reason I wrote my last previous book was because this question was put to me all the time by people who would say, look, it's the oldest profession. And I would say, well, it's the oldest depression. You know, midwifery and agriculture are probably the oldest. It's not a profession anyway. And actually male libido, I mean, clearly, you know, as a hardline lesbian, I know very little about that.

What I do know is that if men want more sex than do women, which is, I think a myth. and I think that's part of a social construct about women being blamed and punished for wanting sex. I think women are reluctant to admit that they want sex and men it's a great badge of honour, isn't it? That you're a red-blooded man who wants loads of sex, permanent stiffy, all the rest of it.

But if men want more sex than do women, well, it's what you're right hands for, mate. I mean, you don't want to be having sex with women. You don't want to have sex with you. It's called rape. And although we don't see prostitution sex as rape, because there's the cash is supposedly the consent. What are men doing having sex with a woman who doesn't want it with him?

You know, it's really, it's not good. And the cash is the coercion. If the cash didn't play a part in it, she wouldn't want sex with men. The clue is that it's not a real date. So what do we do about it? Well, the smokescreen, the woman who is the happy hooker, is always put up as the smokescreen. for actually men's privilege and men's entitlement.

We shouldn't be saying this woman wants to be in sex work. This woman has the right to choose. How can you, as a feminist, tell a woman what not to do with her body? Which is why I don't. What I say is men don't have a right to pay for sex. So what we do about the sex trade is, we recognise that the vast, vast majority of women want out, so we think about alternatives and we think about exit strategies

because they'll come running to them. every single time that any exit strategies are suggested to women rather than a cup of tea and a condom, they take up the offer. And we say to men, okay, it's a bit like smoking in public buildings, guys, right? So it's harmful to other people. So what you're doing, it's not a victimless crime. And we're going to have a big public awareness campaign around why prostitution is harmful and why you don't need it, your dick won't.

for and off if you don't get your rocks off when you want it with whom exactly how you want it. So therefore we criminalise the paying for sex but we don't put men in the stocks or in prison or it's a kind of deterrent and you know you're going to get fined and you're going to be down on your record and we help the women get out and we change attitudes we change hearts and minds and they've done this in several countries. Sweden was the first one in 1999 to criminalise the demand. And that would apply to women also, but it's men. It's women don't pay for sex as a general rule. They just don't. And of course, most prostituted people are women, but it applies, you know, the support and exiting strategies are there for any person in prostitution. And,

yeah, I think it's been rolled out in several countries. It's called the abolitionist model, because there's a kind of a view, the endgame is, an end of prostitution. And when people say, You can't end prostitution. Well, why? It's not, there's nothing natural or innate about it. You wouldn't say that about child poverty or racism. You know it's a hard ask, but you would never say, we'll never get rid of child abuse. I'll tell you what we'll do.

You know, we'll just make it a bit safer for them when they're being abused. You know, we see our role as eradicating a social ill. So I think we need to have a conversation. about why do we assume men need sex? Why do we assume men have a right to sex? There are many men who can't get a real date and I'm sorry that they can't get a real date, but that happens to women as well,

and women don't actually order sex on wheels to come around to her house so she can get her rocks off with someone who doesn't want to get their own. off with her. It's a male thing. It's a man thing. It's true. It is. I was going to go to our last question, but if I, let me tell you how to do feminism correctly, Julie. No. The only thing I would personally just say is that I'm someone who actually agrees with a lot of what you just said. I would never want to have sex with someone who doesn't want to have sex with me. I would never,

I'd never have and never would use a sex worker. Not because it's deeply immoral and just because, because it doesn't accord with what I think about that issue. But I also think your message would reach me better. I'm not talking necessarily about other people. If you were talking about, rather than talking about men, you were talking about the specific people who use that. Do you know what I'm saying? Yes.

That's all I would say. No, I think that's absolutely right. Most men don't pay for sex. And this is something that I always, always make the point about. that in this country, the latest figures, most recent figures are, around 11% of men have at some time paid for sex. So many of them will not be entrenched buyers. And I've interviewed a lot of men who pay for sex.

And some of them are deeply ambivalent about it. And actually don't really enjoy it that much. And some are absolute hardcore, this is my right. I want to do things to her that a woman I wasn't paying would say no to, which is really hideous. But most men don't. And then you've got countries like Spain where they have a much higher

rate of sex buyers. So something like 38, 40%, because they've legalised and normalised the sex trade to the point of where it's seen as just going out and buying a burger. Germany where it's legalised. You've got 60 euros, a 60 euro deal

at certain times of the day in the mega brothels, which is a beer, a burger and bang all you can, all night. And, you know, there are horrendous things that go on in those brothels. There are men that ask for heavily pregnant women. There are gangbangs, all seen as perfectly fine because cash is changing hands. And so we need to look at the culture of prostitution and dispel the myths and and really kind of unpick all of the mythology around it, the fact that it's a woman's right, almost like we're talking about bodily autonomy.

This is not about her right or her lack of right. She doesn't want to be there. And you're right. I agree with you. It has to be addressing the sex buyer and not the male population in general. You'd get the rest of the male population on board with you, I just think, more effectively,

if that was the way the conversation was being had. We need to do. And in fact, I've met, through this work, I've met many men. In particular, actually, men who are disabled, who are also held up as a smokescreen. But what about men who are disabled who've, right, one example I was given a few years ago was a returning veteran from the Iraq war. He's had his legs blown off, he's almost a paraplegic. Interestingly, he can still get it up. So he wants sex

And it's as though he's entitled He's not But also there are many disabled men Who actually do have a real date Who are in relationships And some who are not But it's deeply offensive To disabled people

To say that you should be able to buy sex Because it's clear And everyone wants to shag you So you need to pay for it So we need to unpick all of the mythology around it And one is, poor disabled men who can't get a real date. That's used a lot. I've heard that a lot.

All right. Well, I think we've probably covered everything today. We've offended everybody. That's fantastic. Julie, it's been a genuine pleasure. A genuine pleasure. Thank you so much for coming on. We have one final question for you, which is always the same.

What is the one, before we do our locals questions, which is what is the one thing we're not talking about as a society that we really should be? Rape. We think we talk about it a lot, because it. it's always in the news in one guys or another, but we don't talk about what it actually is. We don't talk about it as an expression of hatred and control and sexual entitlement.

And that's the conversation that we're missing. We see it as sex, we see it as force, and it's actually about neither of those things. And why is that important, Julia? I'm asking because I don't know much about it. Why is that distinction so important? Because it's so commonplace that if we think about it as being committed by monsters who literally force a woman by holding a gun to her head.

We only look at the most extreme cases that are very rare, and we don't look at the rape culture in which we live. It's very commonplace. Ask pretty much any married woman of a particular age and ask if she has, if she's had sex with her partner, her male partner, recently that she didn't want to have. You don't call it rape to her, or you'll get a very different answer and she will tell you yes she's been coerced into sex and that's pretty much every woman under the age of 30 that I speak to it's much more prevalent than we think and it really isn't the the masked marauder carrying a knife breaking into women's houses that happens but it's rare Julie it's been an absolute pleasure thank you so much for coming on the show if people want to find you where's the

best place to do that Twitter where I'm always hanging out getting into our argument, Spindle J. And of course, get the book, Feminism for Women, the Real Liberation. Julie Bindle, thank you so much. We are going to do a couple of questions for our supporters only, which you can access by joining our locals.

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