TRIGGERnometry - "Antifa Violence Won't Stop Under Biden" - Andy Ngo

Episode Date: January 27, 2021

Andy Ngo is the author of Unmasked: Inside Antifa's Radical Plan to Destroy Democracy. Join our exclusive community on Locals! https://triggernometry.locals.com/  OR Support TRIGGERnometry Here: Paypal: https://bit.ly/2Tnz8yq https://www.subscribestar.com/triggernometry https://www.patreon.com/triggerpod Buy Merch Here: https://www.triggerpod.co.uk/shop/ Join the Mailing List: https://www.triggerpod.co.uk/sign-up/ Find TRIGGERnometry on Social Media:  https://twitter.com/triggerpod https://www.facebook.com/triggerpod https://www.instagram.com/triggerpod About TRIGGERnometry:  Stand-up comedians Konstantin Kisin (@konstantinkisin) and Francis Foster (@francisjfoster) make sense of politics, economics, free speech, AI, drug policy and WW3 with the help of presidential advisors, renowned economists, award-winning journalists, controversial writers, leading scientists and notorious comedians."Antifa Violence Won't Stop Under Biden" - Andy Ngo Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Get started today at IPVanish.com slash audio and take control of your privacy with IPVANFish. Hello and welcome to Trigonometry. I'm Francis Foster. I'm Constantine Kitten. And this is a show for you if you want honest conversations with fascinating people. Our brilliant and returning guest today is an independent journalist and the author of Unmasked Inside Antifa's Radical Plan to Destroyed Democracy. Nice neutral title there. Andy No, welcome back to Trigonometry. I'm very happy to be here again. Thank you. We're very happy to have you back, Andy. You've been doing some really important work. We had you on the show last time. shortly after you were assaulted, and we talked by Antifa, and we talked about that a lot.

But since then, in April and May of 2020, we saw the BLM protests, and Antifa related to that, really taking over several city centers in America, and you did some great work on that. So for anyone who doesn't know what Antifa is, who has never heard of this issue before, who maybe, frankly, hasn't ever seen any coverage, because some of the stuff you've been posting on social media from footage from those scenes, never made it to mainstream television or news certainly in this country. So just give everybody a big picture overview. What is Antifa? What has been happening in America for the last year?

Antifa is a violent extremist movement of anarchists and communists with the explicit stated goal of destroying liberal democracies. So they've seen a significant rise, particularly since the election of Donald Trump, in late 2016. And instead of just being a radical left, far less movement on the fringes, they've moved into the mainstream in America. First through periodic and frequent street brawls and riots in the cities like Portland, Berkeley, and Seattle, escalating to the point of throughout 2020 mass simultaneous riots in dozens of cities.

of coordinated street violence, arson attacks, the use of mortar explosives, and even in the case of where I'm from, Portland, we had a homicide, a murder. And so they've taken over several city centres. I remember Chaz, and they've done another one in Portland recently as well.

And what is the... Because for a lot of people, again, who haven't followed this, it's hard to tell like BLM, protest, Antifa, Is there a connection there? Are these two organizations working together? How do you see that part of it? They are working together. They do have different ultimate agendas.

Broadly, Antifa are, so they're made up of anarchist, so they believe that we can organize society under communism without the use of a big government or a totalitarian state. So this is why when you look at the communes that they make, like communes or their autonomous zones, you look at the Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone, otherwise known as Chaz. You look at the autonomous zone they have in Portland. They will create these sort of lawless areas where they say that they don't need the state, they don't need law enforcement, they don't need any type of order that they can take care of themselves.

Of course, we know they can't take care of themselves in the case of Chaz. We had two homicides there, several shootings, in the case of Portland. It was literally creating a war zone in the middle of a residential area in Portland. And you contrast that with BLM, which is in its theoretical underpinnings, very sort of classic revolutionary Marxists

who are about sneaking into the institutions of the state and mainstreaming their Marxist agenda, So, you know, there's a very systematic attack on free markets from BLM, and they're using it under the guise of racial justice. So there's a certain amount of overlap in terms of opposition to the state, particularly the United States of America, opposition to capitalism, of course, opposition and hatred, murderous hatred, of law enforcement. So because of that, there's been a certain cross-pollination. And you've seen Antifa implement some of the intersectional ideology that's prevalent in BLM and also the usage of their chance, Black Lives Matter and all that. To the point now where when I describe Antifa, at least in America, I use BLM-Dash Antifa because I really do think that they're such linked entities.

Ultimately, their ideologies will clash because one is calling for essentially a totalitarian state. BLM, whereas Antifa is calling for anarchy. Let's find out he wins that one. That would be great, weren't it? Yeah, that would be very, very interesting. But, you know, we've got Antifa on one side. We've got BLM. But surely we need to take into account that there are a lot of people who march for BLM who have got no idea about Antifa, who've got no idea about these hardline Marxist views. Where do these people come in? The people who just go out. long and march and just want to see maybe social justice, maybe want to see black people being

treated more fairly? Yeah, so I feel, I don't feel happy to describe them in this way, but I recall they're being used as useful idiots, essentially. So both these movements, Antifa and BLM, use the cloak of racial justice and social justice to shield themselves from criticism. So, for example, I have spoken vocally in opposition to transfer led to me being beaten in 2019 and my family threatened and myself continually subject to death threats. And their response is, how could you be against a movement that calls itself anti-fascist? If you're against anti-fascist and it means you're fascist. If you're against Black Lives Matter, that means you are against Black people.

So, you know, this is what makes these movements so clever. It's a very, the branding of it in the slogans and all that, allow a certain amount of deflection of criticism. And unfortunately, they've used that very well in that. And the media has not really applied a critical lens on the violent extremist rhetoric, the violent extremist ideology, and their violent extremist actions. So they've been given a free pass, essentially. So there are a lot of people on the left, I would say, liberals who, obviously when they hear something like being against fascism, being against anti-black racism, being against the racist police brutality, like these are things they want to be a part of, and they go out to these demonstrations and essentially are used as human shields in these larger protests that at a moment's instance turn in.

until violent riots. And that's what happened that I witnessed myself in Portland. But other cities, the riots that happened in particular at the end of May after the death of George Floyd was ostensibly under this banner of Black Lives Matter and racial justice.

But there was really no way for these protests to not be hijacked by violent extremists who did it over and over and over and in the case of Portland. over 120 days of daily riots every day happening every night. It since then has been now weekly since about September. But this is an issue that's not going away. And people are assumed wrongly that after the election win of Joe Biden in November,

that, you know, this is the end of Antifa, you know, Democrats coming into power that we're not going to see an issue wrong. had really bad riots in Portland in Seattle just the day after the election. You know, we were recording this just on the heels of what happened on New Year's Eve in Portland of dozens and dozens of ANCHA Black Block rioters trying to break into a government building in downtown with hammers using hatchets. They came with explosives. They were throwing explosives at police.

They were throwing homemade paint bombs that had been laced with a caustic suburb. So, and the thing is, like, a lot of people also know my work through the Antifa mugshots that have been posting throughout the year, going through public records, finding out names, finding out charges, finding the booking photos. And I released all of this and I look into all of it because the overwhelming majority of these people, particularly in left-wing cities, have their charges dropped. So the underlying variables that have made Antifa's such a destabilizing threat in some American cities, those variables are still here and they remain to be here, even as Trump leaves office in a matter of days.

But I just want to touch on. So you use the term useful idiots about these people who go out and they go on BLM marches and all the rest of it. But it is not just people. These are also corporations, Andy. If you look at the Premier League, which is a football, it is football, not so. soccer. You need to know that. Which is our soccer league, which is broadcast right around the world.

We have footballists taking the need. We have Britain's got talent, where they had pictures of the Black Lives Matter Fist. Why is it? It's not just individuals, but corporations as well being taken in by this. Well, this is what makes the BLM-Mantifa movement

dangerous, in my opinion. It's not necessarily these on the largest scale, relatively isolated instances. of street violence. They are isolated at the aggregate level. What makes them dangerous is that the ideology is mainstream, not just through mainstream Democrat politicians,

but you look at corporations, you look at very big influential figures. I mean, you know, the mayor of London apparently approved having these BLM FIS logos, you know, blasted out on your New Year's Eve fireworks celebrations. And that's, you know, nobody about it neither. sort of just... He's all about unity, Andy.

Yeah, right. Yeah, in, you know, BLM, whereas, you know, they chant for police officers to be killed. In the case of Portland, nobody would come out to criticize Antifa or BLM because, well, they believe that these people are fighting for a noble cause. And this is the thing to these corporations,

these capitalist corporations who have benefited immensely under free market, markets are also then channeling money to many of these radical nonprofit organizations that are working really to undermine society. In the case of Portland, we have actually one anti-fo organization called Snack Block, who recently got non-profit status. And they actually got $145,000 U.S. grant through the federal government that was dispersed to the state of Oregon and local officials gave $145,000 to this for ostensibly COVID relief. And then you go on the social media and you look,

they're posting pictures of police officers being drawings of them being decapitated, saying other retweeting promotional flyers for riot events earlier this year. And it's like we are funding our own distractions here in the West, here in liberal democratic states. Francis brought up the involvement of corporations, but as you explained to us the last time we had you on the show, one of the biggest problems in your city in Portland has been the fact that the mayor is also the police commissioner. Yes. And so until very recently, he was very much on their side, it would seem.

And essentially, what I want to ask you is, how has this happened, Andy? Because, and maybe this is the Russian in me coming out, but if people wanted to burn something, stuff down on the streets of Moscow, it wouldn't happen for very long. Yet this has happened in America for eight months. How has it been allowed to happen? Because we've seen police officers there trying to do something about it. We've seen even federal officers, I think, coming to some of these places. Why has it been possible for these people to set up autonomous zones, like try and make a new country in the middle of Seattle? How has that been enabled and by whom? So this is what I mean when I say like it's like the acts, the consequences of mainstreaming

the far-elect extremist ideology of BLM Antifa has real life consequences in that. It's been very strategic in delegitimizing law enforcement in America. To the point of where you have police departments in major cities like Portland, Seattle, New York, where they're essentially hemorrhaging. And on top of that, they're being defunded by the 10,000. of millions, or in the case of New York City, $1 billion was slashed in their budget, with crime already skyrocketing. So there's on one level a lack of resources in being able to respond. And that's what happened, particularly this year in Portland, with many officers either

resigning or taking early retirement from the Portland Police Department, and the Bureau is unable to bring in new officers to replace what's being lost, because nobody wants to go. into now what should be a noble institution policing when you're demonized, when you're docks, when you get attacked in some unfortunate cases killed for political reasons. So, yeah, there's the lack of resources, and then there's also the political involvement in these calculations from things that the mayor, let's say of Portland, who's the police commissioner, but even beyond him, the city council itself, they exert immense political pressure over police departments,

not just in Portland in any city. So even though they're supposed to be separate from one another, they are linked because if a police department has no political support from the city council and elected officials, it will really restrict what they're able to do. So in the case of Portland, in addition to the policing issues, We also have a so-called progressive prosecutor who is elected.

So in the U.S., our district attorneys are also known as prosecutors. This is an elected position. So you can imagine if you are living in a city like Portland or Seattle where it's entirely left-wing and improgressive, there's all the incentive in the world to be a prosecutor who will be politically motivated in his or her prosecutions. That's happened in Seattle. And importantly, we have somebody new come in

who campaigned on a platform of restorative justice, which means essentially going easy on criminals. So importantly, we've had over a thousand rights-related arrestees and all that more than 90% have had the charges drop. So the same people literally, and if you look through my post of Antium, Antifa mugshots. These people being re-arrested three, four, five, six, seven, eight times and they're just coming out. They're arrested in jail. They get let out with no bail and they're back out and the charges or drops. They just do the same thing again. But it's not just Portland. You see that in other cities. So all of these issues are coming together to create. It's a erosion of the rule of law and also like our foundational norms in societies, one that we don't. solve disagreements through violence.

Now, people are doing that. And to the point of where you'll see commentators on news media, you'll see opinion pieces in our biggest papers of records arguing that property destruction is not violence. That is a mainstream talking point on the liberal left in America. It is over here as well. See? So this is what I mean in my book that I say that this is what makes Antifor so radical

and dangerous. I'm not talking about instances of them rioting for one night or two night, or Portland's quite extraordinary in that we had more than six months of nightly violence, but it's what it does to the institutions of liberal democracy. On top of that, you're having people now who, they're openly, physically assaulting people who have political disagreements with them, and they're getting cheered on for it by frequently politicians, mainstream media, they'll turn a blind eye to it.

So, like, I have, I have a lot of despair in being in that, you know, my warnings to the city going back, the city of Portland and other places in America going back years. I've been writing about this issue for a long time. I didn't want to be right. And in the end, not only was I

right, I actually underestimated it. I did not think that they could have done what they did, particularly in my hometown in 2020, but that they were able to carry out six months of carnage and get away with it. Essentially, very, very few people have been held accountable. And one issue is that a lot of them can't be identified because of the black block.

But even then frequently when they are identified, then their charges are dropped anyway. So, like, Portland is a harbinger for other places. in America, and I think more broadly, obviously, what political trends happens in America, it's also then exported to your country. I mean, BLM has taken root in Britain and BLM. Thank you for that, Andy. We're very much. I'm sorry.

We're very grateful. Yeah, thank you. You know, BLM, your country has an entirely different history and context for its relationship between a police officer and citizens. is also the history of black citizens here. But for some reason, BLM has taken root here anyways. And this is why it really is a worldwide threat, I think, to liberal democracy. And the damage that it's been able to do in just a mere three and a half years has been immense.

And the issues are not going away. even after Trump's loss, we still have had continued riots. There are multiple cities that had coordinator New Year's Eve riots were likely, it's going to continue. Because like I said before, all the variables are there in the so-called threat of fascism from the Trump administration was always a pretext, just an excuse used to excuse their violent extremist behaviors. if it's not one thing, it's another thing. You know, if it's not Trump, it's police. If it's not police, it's America itself. Well, you see them defacing

democratic politicians' homes now with things scribbling, cancel, rent and all this other stuff on that. That's right. Yeah, we had, they, this is what I've been trying. So I hope that some people in the liberal left in America will read my book because this threat

to America is not just a threat to the American right. It's really going at the heart of American institutions, which includes the Democrat Party. So we've had, for example, on City Council in Portland, one of the new city council members, there were anti-forrioters who showed up to his home and began breaking things because, as punishment for him voting against defunding further Portland police. And he's the left winger. So, you know, these extremists, they have no issues targeting the left when they want to, and they do do it. So their own stated goal is to essentially abolish America, abolish nation states. Look, I spend a lot of time telling you what's wrong with the world,

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sensitive to these particular groups and you were able to see through their modus operandi, as it were, whereas American people who are your age or below have no real knowledge of far-left politics and the danger that these particular groups can cause? Yeah, you know, journalists are trained to remove yourself from the story for good reason, right? You don't want to make yourself part of the story on things that you're reporting on. But for me, as I was writing about Antifa going back several years, I just found that it was extremely hard to sort of entirely remove myself in that my family's experience, living through a communist revolution, going to prison camps,

being persecuted for political, entirely for political reasons. It mirrors a lot of what I'm seeing people on the American far left stating that they want to do, essentially. Isn't that an exaggeration, Andy? Are they really saying we want to put people in camps? Are they really saying we need to, you know, put someone in prison for 25 years for having the wrong political view? Are they really saying that?

When you embed yourself in their protest, is that what they're talking about? No, it's not exaggeration. They've killed people over political disagreements. And they've tried to kill and gotten themselves killed as well. People who say Antifa is not a deadly movement, let's look at what they've done. In 2019, you had a man named, and I write about this in the book, Charles Landros. This is in Eugene, Oregon. It's a small college town, very left wing.

He, shortly before going to a school and launching and attempted shooting on school resource officers, he had written anti-police stuff on his face, but killed police, kill pigs. And he was deeply involved in the anti-fam movement in Eugene. And he got killed in the process of his attack. You had later in the year, Billum von Spranson, which is in Tacoma, Washington State. He firebombed an immigration facility and came armed with a rifle. He got killed in the process, but blew up a car. There was Connor Betts in Ohio who killed nine people in a mass shooting,

who has had a long history of ANCIFI activism, including being in the black block. And just months ago in Portland, we had somebody who, quote, this was in his Instagram manifesto, I am 100% Antifa following a Trump supporter in downtown Portland, waiting around the court. or ambushing him and shooting him dead, right in the middle of downtown, and then fleeing to another state before getting killed by federal authorities.

So, but, Andy, those are all individual cases, which I completely, obviously very sad and shouldn't be encouraged at all. But that doesn't necessarily mean that because there's a few wackos in a movement, that those people are then, you know, they're representative of the ideas behind the movement. So what we were talking about initially is, your Vietnamese background. And look, as someone who came, was born in the Soviet Union, Francis as well, his mother being from Venice, well, we get all this, right? But what I'm trying to get at is, are they actually saying we need to create gulags for wrong thinkers?

They are saying that when they aren't explicitly calling for their political opponents to be killed. Yeah. I mean, you just look at how they treat dissidents, so-called dissonance of people who they suspect of not being completely on their side in areas where they've claimed territory. They beat up journalists in their so-called autonomous zones. They even had one of my friends and acquaintance who was recording video in the Seattle Autonomous Zone. They saw him with the camera and they tried to pull him into an interrogation tent that they had sat up there and he was if your little autonomous zone needs an interrogation tent might not be quite as friendly as you're pretending, right? Yeah. So his name is Kaelin Dormida.

You can go online and look at his testimony for that. But, I mean, police were called. He was, like, dragged on the street literally before being escaped. So, you know, you don't just have to look at what they say. You look at their actions. They, even though they say they are against governments, what essentially they do want to create is a totalitarian system, essentially where there's...

Because their opposition is not just to people who say things that they disagree with. They don't want you to think differently, which is why they spend so much effort in getting people banned of social media. So exploiting the left-wing bias that is prevalent in big tech social media companies, getting their opposition banned, getting them fired, doxing them, releasing information where they live, work, etc., and terrorizing their opponents. So I don't think, you know, there are.

there's a certain amount of parallels, and yes, there are differences, obviously, with, like, the Vietnamese communist regime from the American context. But broadly, it is about a revolutionary far less politics, about achieving their goals by any means necessary, including violence, including, I think, actually I know if they had the power, they would imprison the political opponents if they didn't kill them outright. Because you just look at their actions on a small scale level and look when they've actually had gained power temporarily in childs or in Portland's autonomous,

so on what they do to people. Have you ever been abroad and felt out of place because you didn't speak the language? No, because I voted Brexit. Brexit means Brexit. I know that sometimes you're abroad, you don't speak the local language. It's very awkward like France is talking to a woman.

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Do they tend to be from one particular background or another, or are they spread far and wide from every echelome of society? It has spread far and wide. One myth that I do want to dispel is that they're all middle-classed, wealthy people. Some of them are upper-class as well. Some of them do represent people who are university-educated in white-collar jobs, Absolutely. And actually, the ANTIFO were so furious that I was publicizing these

public records of these booking photos from these six months of arrests in Portland because, you know, it exposed that some of them were in white-collar jobs, such as being nurses, being doctors, being professors, being academics, being university students at private, expensive elite institutions. There's all that. But I would say, it really, it includes, this is what, I mean, this ideology does appeal to people who are do well in America and as well as people who are really vulnerable. And this is kind of where my, I have a certain, I don't know, compassion is right, where it's sympathy for some of these people who are used as tools, foot soldiers in these mass rights, people who are, many of them

are vagrants, a lot of them are, with mental health issues. A lot of them have gender dysphoria. And they're being pulled into a ideology movement that promises them community, meaning, purpose, belonging. I mean, you have a uniform, you have an identity and label that you go under as an anti-fascist, so-called anti-fascist. And they have a lot of literature as well, booklets, pamphlets. Like, if you read my book on masks, you'll see that the radicalization process is really important in Antifa. It's a lot of brainwashing actually. And it takes a lot of brainwashing to get people who go from broadly being sympathetic to some of these things,

let's say racial justice, to eventually be one of the people who mask up and bring, let's say, knives or tasers or Molotov. cocktails and other fire bombs to these riots with the intent to kill people. And this process happens not spontaneously, but through these radicalization stuff. And how does it happen? Tell us more about that. Just take us through, I'm a sort of disaffected. Radicalizes Andy. Yeah, radicalizes into Antifa for live on air.

No, but seriously, so here I am. I'm disaffected with society. I'm very progressive in my mindset. Maybe I've got some mental health issues. here I am, I've come in and your job is to get me to the point where I'm ready to go on a riot. How does that happen? So there are, let's say, I say in Portland they have it down to an art. There are the street militants.

And then there are other anti-fah groups who don't explicitly engage in street violence, but they'll do things like community events, support, supportive, like direct action, where they do things that ostensibly look like charity work, distributing food to those in their community, protesting peacefully. All of that, if you go to any of these events, in addition to the food and supplies that they're distributing for free, they will always have tables of their booklets.

And it's very similar actually to, I would say, like a radicalization process of like the Muslim Brotherhood or other Islamists or even jihadists, really. You introduce them to certain theories. The theories about why capitalism is inherently linked to racism, how it's connected to slavery, and how America as protecting capitalism property free markets is an imperialist state of racism that upholds white supremacism.

I'm a lot of these ideas are actually, they're academic and intellectual, and they're simplified in these booklets and pamphlets that are given out. Nelly Bowles for the New York Report at New York Times, who went up to Portland to cover some of these violent protester rights in Portland, wrote about some of these booklets and pamphlets. Antifa were really angry about that sort of like national spotlight that are brought to it, but there's very few people paying attention. Because if you walk by, you do think it's just another table of just like things that people are handing out. That actually forms a very important part in their, how they're introducing what they call radical ideas to others. And in Chaz, they have the same thing in the recent Autonomous Zone in

Portland. So, you know, you start building friendships. These friends start introducing these extremist ideas. They have gatherings and meetings in the case of Roe City Antifa, which my book publishes some of their documents for the first time. They will actually have a curriculum that's really kind of like a university curriculum that they'll meet weekly in a secret place. They'll have a set of literature that each week is supposed to read. They'll discuss it. And what are some of the central themes?

So I've come, I've got a pamphlet, I've got my sandwich, I've got my pamphlet. I'm like, okay, well, yeah, there are problems with capitalism. Maybe it's because America is inherently racist or whatever. I've come to the meeting for the first time. What are you telling me to get me into that? The main things or the main points of their radical ideas that they're trying to brainwash people and some believing is that non-violence empowers the state and the state enforces fascism, that property rights is linked to racism, linked to a system of white supremacy. So these two things.

hatred of a nation and hatred of property rights. Those are probably the two main ideas. And they have a particularly hatred for law enforcement because they view law enforcement, well, as the literal enforcers of the rules of the state. Well, right, if the state is fascist, they are then the fascist boots on the ground enforcing the fascist laws of the fascist. So this whole using Black Lives Matter in opposition to police is just, it's been a very convenient and purpose.

way for them to make their really extreme ideas palatable to a wider public. And they have immense success. I mean, look at the calls to defund and abolish police happening in city councils across America. And Andy, they don't also, it's not just a process of indoctrination mentally, but also physically. They get taught how to fight. They get taught how to various other things as well. Could you delve into that for us? So the really organized militant anti-fell.

groups are extremely secretive because, I mean, they explicitly, they have a membership process and in all intents and purposes they are again, and they will plan out criminal violent activity. So they keep all the activities secret. And in a press and media who unfortunately are very not curious have not dived into trying to uncover really how they organize. I mean, in my book, I was able to acquire the documentation from the oldest American Antifa group, which is Rose City Antifa. Now, absolutely, if you look at the documentation, their emails to one another, it completely blows over this claim that Antifa is not, doesn't exist as an organization, that they're not organized. I mean, the thing is Antifa is not one entity. There are many, many Antifa groups.

There are networks of them. The Torch Network is the network that's probably the most violently militant. Rose City Antifa is a part of that, but they have chapters in seven other cities. So there's a blueprint for how they organize. And I think what was really shocking about the curriculum for Rose City Antifa, which you can read in detail in the book, is that they were holding these secret meetings at a bookstore in Portland. So on the outside, it looks so innocuous. You would never think that a feminist bookstore was allowing its space to be used by extremists, literal violent

extremists. I would say it's a terrorist ideology, actually. They spend so much time into brainwashing their members that violence is a necessity to achieve their goals. But you're saying they're a terrorist ideology. But in your book, what's very, very interesting, is that you examine the antecedents of Antifa. And the fact is, like everything under the sun, this is nothing new. There was, I think, the Biden-Mindhoff group in the 60s, but there was also the far-left and the far-right organization in Weimar and Germany in the interwar years. Could you explain to us a little bit about that as well? So since Trump has come into office, the American press, the international press in Western countries has gone really overdrive

until focusing entirely on threats to violence that come from the far right in white races and really fringe more neo-Nazi groups. That threat is absolutely there, but it is small, but that's all that they paid attention to. America has had a history of far-left violence. extremism that a lot of young people, people my age, aren't aware of the violence that we had in the 60s and 70s, which was quelled or squashed because of law enforcement, imprisoning some of these members, charging them. Many of them fled abroad to Cuba,

where they were given refugee status there. So America has had a history of far-lost violence extremes, people who killed law enforcement, who carried out bombings, for example, Germany as well. And so there's this history in building blocks that Antifa takes from to do what they're able to do today. And there's just a gap in the collective American memory, I would say, of far-left extremism that they think. And that is actually quite intentional, I would say, about the media. They really, they downplay and they ignore it entirely. I mean, you know, you can contrast, let's say

two mass shootings that we had in 2019 in the US. So there was a reportedly far right racist, white supremacists in Texas who killed some 20-something people at a Walmart and the people were a majority of Latino background. And that received

a lot of media attention, not one, because it was a mass killing and two. because of the potential racist links and allegations relating to that. But within 24 hours after that shooting, we had the mass shooting in Ohio from Connor Betts, who I talked about a moment ago, an anti-fam mass shooter who, if he looked through his social media history, was not just identified as part of it,

but explicitly calling for violence against the right. He carried out of mass shooting, and that didn't get... much attention or much attention at all. And is that all about Trump, Andy? Is this what happened? 2016 Trump gets elected. Media shocked, not only because he is a shocking figure

to people on the sort of liberal, what you guys call it liberal. We don't call it liberal here, but on the left, let's say. If you're a left-wing person in the media, to you, the election of Donald Trump is a shock to the system. And you're going, well, he needs to be got rid of by any means necessary. So you're sort of like, yeah, okay, look, this stuff may be happening,

but let's just focus on getting rid of Donald Trump. Is that what happened? It is what happened. I think Trump derangement syndrome is real, and you particularly saw it in journalists, journalists who, before his election, led long, distinguished careers, and at times may have been biased, but not to the level of what I would call

really unprofessional behavior and reporting. that you see now. So surely with that in mind, you alluded to your opinion about this earlier, but Trump, you know, he's gone, right? We've got a brilliant new, you know, mixed race ticket, racism is over, everything's going to be wonderful. There is no more need for street violence

because we're going to fix all the bad stuff. If only, if only that was the case, the thing is, if you've been paying attention to the rhetoric, of BLM and Antifa, particularly throughout 2020, it's shifted very clearly away from opposition to Trump to opposition to the United States itself. So they're not going to be satisfied until they can destroy anything and everything they can. So, you know, they have goals that really can not ever really be achieved

in that if it's not one issue that they are, protesting against. It's another. And if it's not that, it's another after that. It's these people who can never, ever be satisfied. I mean, when you say you are against white supremacy and fascism, and you define it in the way they define it, which includes anything and everything, that means their goals can never be achieved. So they're always going to have a reason to be violent. They found a reason to be violent in Portland and Atlanta and other cities on New Year's Eve, you know, because it's New Year's, the New Year's to renew our dedication to fighting fascism and racism, so we're going to riot. We're going to ring weapons to downtown Portland. So, and I mean, if it's not clear

enough that this is, Antifa's the violent, extremist, dangerous movement, you can just look at, like, who they say that they are inspired by and take influence from, which is the original antifo, which was a paramilitary of the German communist party. party. So that was the original antipheld. The logos that you see today of the flags is based off a design from that originally. So the original paramilitary of the German antifa, they were engaging in street fights in Germany, not just against the brown shirts and fascists, but actually the social democrats. They were fighting and beating up all political opponents. And they were creating this political climate of political polarization in Germany, in towards Germany,

and making the wider public just wanting all that street political violence to end. And I think some academics have positive that that context helped pave the way for the appeal of somebody like a Hitler. So what you're saying is these people aren't really anti-fascist. They're pro-anarchy. And chaos. Yes. Yes. And I actually, I think a lot of them are probably upset that Trump's going out

because they really, they use that so well as an excuse to get, to bring in new allies. But they've carefully have now switched the enemy from Trump to law enforcement. And they've been successful in bringing out people there. So, you know, all it really takes is just a very simple video of some unfortunate incident that is taken out of context to mobilize not just thousands, but tens of thousands of people, not just in my country, but your country as well and other countries around the world. That's how effective their messaging has been. And although Biden is a more moderate Democrat, you just say,

you look at the people who have influence in the Democrat Party, people like AOC, people like Ilhan Omar, the radicals, people who are just state representatives and Congress, you know, one of many, but they have such an outsizing, large influence on the party that their messaging will, is going to play until the decisions of the DNC, in my opinion, in my prediction. And Andy, how do we defeat them? So we've explained it, we've looked at the type of people who are involved in this ideology, the fact that they're anarchists, that they want chaos, that they thrive on this. Obviously, it is not in our interest or anybody's interest that these people are successful. So how do we defeat number one, the group, and number two, the ideology?

I thought it's easier to defeating the movement itself means is essentially, doing what's been done in the past. So how law enforcement were able in the U.S. to end the terrorism, far-left communist revolutionaries in the 70s were to arrest, prosecute, in jail those who were involved in the criminal activities. And that hugely disrupted their networks as well. Unfortunately, all these people have been released from prison and have been reincorporated into left-wing activism and their past actions, people just look over the past criminal actions. So there's that. You don't necessarily need new laws, although I think, let's say, in your country, you have laws that prescribe certain organizations and groups that are applied to

jihadist groups, for example, and far-right groups. I think that should be applied. to far less groups. In America, we don't have those type of laws because of how strong our First Amendment is. Anything that could be interpreted as persecuting people for their beliefs, even if they are

violent, extremist beliefs, you can have those radical beliefs that's protected by the First Amendment. That's why it's not illegal to be a member of a neo-Nazi group. It's not illegal to be a member of a violent antifa group. So what needs to happen is the rioters are being arrested though. They're not being held accountable. So this is an issue with prosecutors being elected. And I'm not quite

sure what the solution would be. But obviously it means people waking up and realizing that going soft on rioters just because they say they're doing it in a noble cause like that this really requires a paradigm shift, I think, in the American mind so that we elect prosecutors who actually uphold the law. And do you think it's a question of education, Andy? The fact that most Americans don't know about communism like we touched on before, you know, they haven't been educated about it, the dangers and the evils of the far left?

Yes, absolutely. There's just not a lot of knowledge. People aren't really aware that we had far-left communist Marxists, cells in the 70s that were doing kidnappings and bank robberies and killing law enforcement and carrying out bombing attacks. They just don't know about that. Whereas, you know, anytime you ask them about right-twing extremism, everybody can remember things and they don't let things go. And, you know, this is somewhat related. It's just like Heather Heyer, who was killed in Charlottesville, like her name is regularly mentioned. And it should be mentioned because I think her life didn't

matter. But Aaron Danielson, which is the person who was shot in Portland, nobody knows his name, nobody remembers him, nobody all knows them. None of the politicians uttered his name in Portland when that killing happened. So it's just, and it was because he was killed by somebody who explicitly said he was Antifa. Do you think that's it, Andy, there's a lack of moral equivalence between the two because a far-right extremist is viewed as the most evil thing you can think of. they're racist, their prejudice, they're bigoted, you tired to slavery in your mind, all of that sort of stuff. Whereas if it's someone on the far left, it's easier to excuse because you're going, well,

they're probably well-intentioned, aren't they? They just want everyone to be equal. Like, there's that lack of judging an act on the basis of the act because we buy into this idea that this murderer is better than that murderer because this murderer actually used some kind of good motivation for their violence. Well, and that's the problem. The problem reinforced by the media is that it's wrong to criticize both these, the far left and the far right in the same breath because they're not,

they can't be compared because the far left, even if they are violent, they are doing it for racial justice, for equity. I mean, you know, you go down that path of thinking, the rational conclusion is it does lead to violent anti-folks. extremism or any other type of Marxist terrorism because it's like, well, it's for this cause, right? The cause of the proletariat, the cause of oppressed racial minorities. It's okay to kill police. It's okay to advocate for violence against these people because, you know, we're fighting for a noble cause. And for me, it's really immaterial, really what the goal is that the if the actions that are carried out lead to violence, murder, terrorism.

So I think I'm being consistent in my condemnation of the far left and the far right. I wish the media would be too. And I think the other thing is that, you know, me personally experiencing the threats that come from Antifa that are directed at me make it more personal because then it's real. like anti-foil right murder and you know around the city of portland and that graffiti stays up in their autonomous zone recently in portland they wrote my name and an address that stayed up so it's it's unfortunate that there isn't very much solidarity with me from other people who are in the same field and

actually it's a lot of other journalists who frequently condemn me do you legitimize my work but you know if any journalist, even just some contributor to small publication received explicit threats from a neo-Nazi, the whole industry would rally against that person and all the press organizations would as well. I mean, I've reported my threats to press freedom tracker and other groups, and they used to get back to me. They don't anymore, maybe because it's become too frequent. I report all the stuff to law enforcement. They don't do anything. So is that why you've moved to the UK? I've had to flee my country and my home

because of the ongoing threats and the lack of action from law enforcement even when through my own investigations I've been able to identify some of these people. I mean, people who pose with guns and say that bullets need to be put in me, all this type of stuff, prosecutors choosing not to prosecute.

I mean, you know, my beating last year, you and I, we talked just a few months after my beating last year. At that time, I was optimistic that they would lead to arrest. You know, you know, we, through my own legal counsel, this legal fund, by the way, Center for American Liberty, we had to finance our own private investigation, put in hundreds of our own hours into uncovering some of these people. and then once that information was provided to police and the Attorney General, nothing was done. So unfortunately we're having to sue them to the civil route

when these people should be actually held criminally responsible. And, look, we can talk about, you know, the academic side of it and, you know, the fact, you know, on the left and people don't want to condemn people on there for a variety of reasons. And look, isn't part of it just the fact that they're cowards? Isn't it just simple cowardice as well? Because it's difficult to do the right thing. It's difficult to stand up to a bully and go, you're wrong?

Yes, I have encountered a lot of cowards, unfortunately, doing the line of work that I do. Even, I mean, this is the issue of, you know, and you two are not partisan, but I myself and a conservative, I think, because of the political, hegemony that the left has, particularly in journalism, they make it quite consequential for people who are critical the left, even the far left.

And I don't know what it'll take for that to change. And I don't want the inverse to happen, by the way. I don't, I would not want to work in an industry, let's say that was dominated by the right and a right that was unwilling to condemn

far right to extremism. Right. So a moment ago you had asked what does it take to defeat Antifa ideologically and I think it's you know hopefully through efforts like what I am doing with unmasked in this book

where I spent months and months at sort of the American epicenter of antsy for violence looking at not just how they organize, how they get some of their funding, how they carry out coordinated mass violence, but looking at what do they actually believe? What does it mean when they say that they are opposing capitalism, when they're opposing U.S. imperialism, opposing white supremacy?

What's that actually mean? What are they actually advocating for? And then we've had now, you know, a very clear view into what happens when their ideology is actually implemented in a territory. and it does lead to death, violence, the confiscation of property. I mean, in the Portland Autonomous Zone, this is really, this didn't get as much media attention as the Chaz, but they actually created, so they created their own barricades, like what they did in Chaz, so they actually had to define territory.

They built a wall, you could say. They built a wall, and then they built a buffer zone that was growing every day. Every day it was moving further and further out, and they set booby traps in the street, literal booby traps, spikes, They were laying out boards with nails sticking up. So you couldn't drive in.

They had strategic points where they had bottles, Molotov cocktails, rocks that they could use as sort of their attack areas. And they were doing this. This was the official messaging was that they were protecting a black indigenous family from being removed from their home, from being evicted from their home in the winter. It's absolute rubbish. It was a lie.

It was a family who had been squatting at a property that they didn't pay anything for three years since 2017. And the legal process had been played out. Court judgment after court judgment appeals, rejected, etc., etc., these people were illegally squatting. And this is the people who, and they had stockpiled weapons inside this property. And so this is the type of people that they protect.

And then the media just, goes along with protecting a black indigenous family from eviction in the winter. Yeah, the coverage of this issue, I mean, it's been embarrassing from mainstream publications, which is why we're grateful to have people at you who can come and talk about it. And as you say, you know, Francis and I are not partisan on this issue, but we are partisan on nonviolence. We're partisan on the rule of law. I mean, I think everyone should be partisan on that sort of thing.

It's very right-wing of you, man. Very, very. It's extremely right-wing. Well, it is seen as a right-wing position. according to people who follow like critical race theory and all that. Yeah. Well, yeah, I mean, logically I can see it. If you think the state is fascist and if you think property rights of fascism, then evicting someone from a property where they're squatting is fascism under that definition.

To normal people, it makes no sense, of course. But as Francis said earlier, I think a lot of people simply don't know what they get involved with. So a lot of people, all of this stuff is simply about ensuring. justice and equality. And those of us who try and sort of point out some of the underpinnings of this immediately get boxed into, you know, all sorts of categories. But there's nothing we can do about it. What we can do, Andy, is thank you for coming back on the show. It's a pleasure. It's good to see you are well and safe here in this country for now. Hopefully this stuff doesn't come over too much. It's been good to have you back. And as you know, we've got one more question for you.

Which is always what's the one thing we're not talking about as a society, but we really should be. I like that you ask this particular question at the end of every show. I wasn't prepared for it last year, and I don't think I'm that prepared this time either, but I think I have a better answer. I just, I think we need to be panicking about this erosion in the norm of non-violence in Western liberal democracy. It's like, it's not by chance that we have come to a civilization in a standard, a norm that you don't resolve disagreements through violence against others. And there has been a very quick and systematic erosion of that, just as a law, not through the laws,

that laws haven't changed in that regard. But I mean when politics is downstream from culture, quoting Andrew Byte. So we're moving into a direction of a culture where more and more people are believing that the response to grievances is to be violent. destructive. We shouldn't just be talking about that more. We should be panicking about it, in my opinion. That sounds like something we can all fight for.

Good point. I love it when Francis does a joke and the guest just condescendingly looks at him. It's a great ending to show. Andy, thank you so much for coming back. All the best with your book. It's out on the 2nd of February. It's out on the 2nd of February. It's called Unmasked. Make sure you to get it. It's a brilliant read. There's a historical perspective. And as we've just talked about, Andy has been on the ground documenting all this stuff. So make sure you get unmasked on the 2nd of February. And we will see you very soon with another brilliant interview like this one.

This is probably going to be our last in-person interview for a while, so we hope you've enjoyed it. And we will see you very soon. 7pm for a live stream or another interview. Thank you very much, guys. See you soon.