TRIGGERnometry - BBC Interviews TRIGGERnometry - Karen Dunbar

Episode Date: September 9, 2021

A special episode in which Konstantin and Francis are interviewed by Scottish comedian, actress and writer Karen Dunbar for the BBC. Get TICKETS to TRIGGERnometry Live with Andrew Doyle here: https://leicestersquaretheatre.ticketsolve.com/shows/873619472 Join our exclusive TRIGGERnometry community on Locals! https://triggernometry.locals.com/ OR Support TRIGGERnometry Here: https://www.subscribestar.com/triggernometry https://www.patreon.com/triggerpod​​​ Bitcoin: bc1qm6vvhduc6s3rvy8u76sllmrfpynfv94qw8p8d5 Buy Merch Here: https://www.triggerpod.co.uk/shop/​​​ Advertise on TRIGGERnometry: [e-mail] Join the Mailing List: https://www.triggerpod.co.uk/sign-up/​​​ Find TRIGGERnometry on Social Media: https://twitter.com/triggerpod​​​ https://www.facebook.com/triggerpod​​​ https://www.instagram.com/triggerpod​​​ About TRIGGERnometry: Stand-up comedians Konstantin Kisin (@konstantinkisin) and Francis Foster (@francisjfoster) make sense of politics, economics, free speech, AI, drug policy and WW3 with the help of presidential advisors, renowned economists, award-winning journalists, controversial writers, leading scientists and notorious comedians. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hello and welcome to Trigonometry. I'm Francis Foster. I'm Constantine Kisson. And this is a show for you, if you want honest conversations with fascinating people. We have neither for you today because it's us who are being interviewed. The tables have turned.

We have comedian and actor Karen Dunbart talking to us. You're here from the BBC. Tell everybody a little bit of how this happened and what we're doing here. I'm showing thanks guys. I'm making our program for BBC about cancel culture, comedy. walkness, what we can see, what we can't say now, and why can we not see things? And I thought you two guys would be the very people to ask. You're in the right place, far away. Cool. So,

firstly, tell me, start with you, Francis. How did you get into comedy? I got into comedy in the same way that everyone gets into comedy, because nobody when they get into comedy is in a good place. Do you know what I mean? Nobody goes, you know what, I'm nailing life. Let's go into a basement of a pub and tell jokes to three disinterested strangers. And, and committee, are a bunch of narcissists. So I was a teacher. I wasn't very happy with where I was. I've always loved comedy. I've always been very passionate, a fan of Chris Rock, Bill Hicks, that type of comedian. And that's what I wanted to do. And that's what my dream was, to write comedy about the state of the world, talking about what's happening, why it's happening.

And that's how I started on my comedy journey, really. I can identify. And, Constantine, yourself? Well, it's interesting Francis says that. For me, I was also kind of, I was just a little bit bored of my job, really, more than anything. But also the people that I always thought of as comedians were really, as I now realized, they were more satirist than comedians. They were people who were talking about the political events and what was happening in society, people like George Carlin and Bill Higgs. They weren't necessarily pumping out a gag every two seconds. They were people who had something to say. And I naively thought that's what comedy is now. So I went in thinking, that that's what the world is and of course you very quickly find out that that isn't how it is. And, you know, I worked quite hard at it. I did my own show in Edinburgh about free speech after a contract that I was involved with, which we may go on to talk about. And then, you know, sort of halfway through that process, we started the show to explore some of the things that we started to see in the world. And that's been my journey through the comedy and sort of this part

of the industry if you like. So since Staten comedy, what have you seen about how it's changed? Give me an example if you can about what you could have said at the start of your journey and what you feel that you've had to put to the side now or not put to the side. Right, so a good example of this is

my first comedy gig was in August 1st, 2009. And back then, it was a very, very different landscape comedically. If you think who the biggest comedian at that time was, particularly in Britain, it was Frankie Boyle, saying the most outrageous, offensive jokes possible. And back then, on the London Open Mic Circuit, which was where I started, there was this culture of saying horrific, offensive things in order to be seen to be edgy, to be shocking, to get a shock laugh, because a lot of people wanted to be like Frankie Boyle. Not everybody, there was another group of people who wanted to be like Stuart Lee.

but very much there was that Frankie Boyle, Jim Jeffries-esque comedian. And more and more, you saw that that type of comedy became less prevalent on TV, it became less common, what you could discuss on TV, the type of jokes that were being broadcast on TV became more and more and more. How can I put this clean, the teeth were being removed from it, to what you see now on Mock the Week bears no resemblance to what was on Mock the Week in 2009. You just couldn't get away with a lot of the jokes that happened.

I mean, I'll give you an example, which is, for instance, on Mock the Week, I remember Frankie Boyle making a joke about Jordan's disabled son, Harvey. And basically, the premise of the joke was that the reason she was going out with his cage fighter is because he was the only person who could prevent Harvey from then going and then going, committing unspeakable acts against Jordan. Now, I didn't particularly like that joke. I don't find

that joke funny. But that's an example of you could say an outrageously transgressive joke on TV, and now you just wouldn't be able to say that. In fact, there's lots of jokes now that you would have got away with even three or four years ago that simply won't happen. A good example of this is you will never see, or very rarely see, a comedian, criticize Labour or Jeremy Corbyn. There's very, very few. Why? Well, when I did it,

the reason is that when I did it, I remember I had a great, one of my favorite routines I ever wrote about the Labour Party and Jeremy Corbyn around Brexit. And it was very funny, and a lot of people would find it funny, but there was always a hiss when you did it. It was like, you're not...

What was it? It's a bit of a long one. It's a bit of a long routine, but basically I was calling out Jeremy Corbyn for not saying what he thought about Brexit, being inconsistent, right? because we know he probably voted leave and then he pretended anyway. But there was a big hiss

that was always there, no matter how funny the rest of the audience were finding. And I think somehow people got into this idea in the head that it's not okay to make fun of different parts of the political spectrum. There's only one target that's allowed now, which I find very odd. But I'll give you an example

coming back to your earlier question about what you can and can't say. Because, you know, you're gay, and I think this will be relevant to the conversation, I remember the first time we had a guest on our show that we didn't know was Andrew Doyle. He's a comedian. He's a gay guy and we're very good friends with Andrew.

And he came in and I was doing my research on my phone as he's coming in. And I said to Francis, I didn't know he was gay. And Francis looked at me with a twinkle in his eye and went, I don't agree with it either. Right. A joke among friends who understand that it's not meant seriously. Irony. Something we all recognize as part of the normal process of human connection.

If you did that in public, as I've just done, but you did it on mainstream television. You'd be destroyed. Because no one wants to give you the benefit of the doubt that maybe you were being friendly and joking as opposed to you seriously meant some sort of discriminatory point. Do you know what I mean?

And what does destroyed mean now? So destroyed and you've got a fantastic postage up there saying cancel culture is a myth. So is cancel, the same as destroyed. To me, what cancel culture means is that, so for instance, you can't, can lose your TV shows. You will become, you will be dog-piled, which means on Twitter, lots of people then quote tweet. You demand that you lose your agent, that you lose your shows,

that you lose, you know, your career. You know, there's a comedian who's a circuit comedian. He's doing very well on the circuit. He's a very funny guy. He made a joke on a podcast, and he lost his book deal as a result. Yeah, yeah. And it wasn't even that, it wasn't even like a, and some kind of evil joke either. Yeah. And it's partly comedy, but when we talk, I know this is about comedy, and I understand that,

but it sounds very kind of distant from the lives of normal people. But I can give you other examples. There was a guy who posted a Billy Connolly routine about religion on his Facebook. Yeah. And he got sacked from his job in Asda. The guy gets sacked.

Yeah. Wow. For jokes from a DVD that they fucking sell in Asda. Yeah. That's funny. Yeah. Do you know what I mean?

And on and on it goes, we've had plenty of people on this show who've, you know, we had a guy called Nick Buckley on the show. He ran a charity for inner city kids in Manchester who were struggling, who were coming from single parent households, who needed a bit of help to get them to succeed in life, right? And he ran that for 20 years. I think he got an MBE. He was recognized for his achievements. During the BLM protest last year, he had a different opinion of that particular movement.

He said it. He got fired from him. his own charity. He got fired from his own charity that he started 20 years ago, right? That's what we're talking about. To me, when comedians like us or people in the public eye anyway start talking about cancel culture, even I cringe slightly because I think these are people who've got a platform, they've got a great job, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, but there's a lot of ordinary people who get cancelled for things. And they don't have a platform on YouTube to talk about it and to be like, this is wrong, you know?

So what does it do to us to live under that threat, especially in Well, I tell you what it does to us. It's what it does, it means you self-censor your thoughts. But it also means that you self-censor when it comes to writing. We had David Badell on the show a couple of months ago, the most lefty, liberal comedian. And even he said that he censors himself when he starts to write jokes. So what that means is that you sanitise the art form. To me, what great comedy is, is when you think to yourself, I can't believe they said that. And if you think about the great comedians that you probably fell in love with, the Billy Colonies, you know, the Richard Priyes, they were all saying these shocking things. But we need that as a society. We need the

mirror to be held up to us. And if we say, oh, that is hate speech, you cannot say that. Then you're destroying the art form. And also as well, you are destroying the comedian's ability to hold up and challenge some of the things in our society, which is simply wrong. but what do we say to the people and I'm including myself in this who have potentially suffered at the hands of huge big comedy pieces well-known things that have been taken

and then used as racist slurs homophobic slurs how do we... Like what? Good. I don't know. I kind of think anything specific and it may come to me

but that if we continue to laugh and mock certain minorities, then that goes into the ether and gives people permission to laugh and treat minorities as less than. But this is why I asked you the question of an example, because this is with all full respect to you, that's a very loaded question, because you've said, continue to mock people. And, you know, like, I'd need an example.

of that because I'm not turning on the BBC at the moment and going, oh, there's this comedian attacking a group of people based on their race. Are you seeing that? I don't remember in the time I've lived in this country, which is since 1995, I don't ever remember seeing that, right? Someone going after gay people or black people or Jewish people or whatever on that basis. So you'd have to give me an example, I think. This episode is brought to you by Netflix's remarkably bright creatures.

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they were towards ethnic minorities, people of colour, women, does that no give people permission to ridicule? Well, if we're talking about Bernard Manning, I'm with you. Do you know what I mean?

Like, I wasn't one of these people in 1997. It was going political correctness. None of us here about that at all. It'd be a weird position for a 14 year old to take. Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

I mean, I was the sort of 14 year old that would have been political, but you know what I mean? So it's about where the line is, Karen, isn't it? It's about whether the line of what you should and shouldn't do and what is your angle and what you're coming from. If someone is just making fun of ethnic minorities

because of ethnic minorities, that's one thing. But the example I would give you is I would talk on stage doing stand-up before the Great Plague about people being racist, to me in this country, right? And I would turn the joke on the racist, obviously, as you would. And he was always the ethnic minorities in the audience who would laugh,

and it was always the guilty white people who'd look around at the nearest black person or brown person, just to check that it was okay for them to laugh. Yeah, but they then internalize that shame and then go and take it out with more fuel underneath it towards ethnic minorities or however they're biased against them. Would you defend Bernard Manning's right to do his comedy today if he was still with us? God rest his soul.

Would I defend his right to do comedy? I think this is a very good question where you think about it and you go, to be honest with you, I don't like his comedy. I don't agree with it. I find it abhorrent. I find it racist. Should he be allowed to perform his comedy in a free society? Fortunately, he should.

Why, unfortunately? Well, unfortunately, because I don't like it. I don't like it. I don't find it pleasant. I don't find it, I find it offensive to me. So that's a personal preference as opposed to it being dangerous, that you believe it's dangerous for him to have freedom of speech? Yes. I believe there's people in the, so we talk, I think we give comedians far more power than they actually have. This idea that somebody is going to tell a joke and then it's going to change the way people think, I don't, believe comedy has that power. I was listening to an interview with Bill Burr where he said, if it did have that power, it would have been banned by now. And I'm fully with him on that. Totally agree. And I think that actually if we're talking about people with power,

there's people like Priti Patel bringing in a whole load of laws that coming in, you know, making it legal for journalists to embarrass the government up to 14 years. I mean, those are the people we need to worry about. Not some, you know, comedian with unpleasant and obnoxious views, playing to half-empty theatres in a seaside town. And also, you've got to remember as well, society itself has changed since two, right? So even if Bernard

Manning was to come back from the grave now, I don't imagine there'd be much of an audience for him. Comedy is kind of self-selective. You don't need rules about it. All you need is to let the audience choose who they want to go and see. Yeah, one of the guys you interviewed have in my memory, see you can help me, and I just watched it recently

about comedy, and he said, if you want to do anything, if you don't like my comedy, the thing to do is do nothing. Don't laugh. Because if there are enough of the audiences not laughing, guarantee you the comedian will change the joke. Right, exactly. Exactly. But also, you know, it's also about interpretations, isn't it? It's about whether you are giving the comedian the benefit of the doubt, that they're probably not coming from an evil place. They're coming from a place of trying to make you laugh. And I always found it very weird. Because I used to have a routine that I loved about how we need a special Olympics for white people. Right?

And it was based on the idea that white people don't seem to do as well at the Olympics in many events as non-white people, right? It's just a fact. And it was a joke if you were to look at it from the comedy thing of like it's punching up at the powerful white people. And yet, most people would get uncomfortable. And I had to build in about 50 different other jokes just to go, no, no, no, guys, this is not me being racist. I'm just making a joke about something we all know is true, right? But as society changed over the last five years, more and more people were uncomfortable,

even at the idea of race being discussed. More and more, you know, Francis and I talked about this, how, you know, the differences between men and women used to be a staple of comedy, right? And it was so much a staple of comedy. It was actually kind of hack. Yes. Not even kind.

It was ultra-hack. Now you can go on stage at a comedy, gig and go, guys, how many genders are there? And the next one, what's a woman? Yeah. I recently interviewed LGBTQI plus elders. They're all over 50. And I've got to say my mind was open because sometimes I come from a place of,

does it matter? Does it matter? I mean, I'm even asking that behind, you know, man, doesn't matter. because to even question at Loudouns feels like a huge risk. Never mind make a statement. So what do you see in terms of, I'll come back to this,

so the shift you spoke about between in the last 10 years, is any of the comedy that's coming out today that's been sanitised, does it make you laugh? Does it still work as comedy? Does it still serve its purpose? I mean, I watch Bill Burmums. Netflix special.

Now, was that the funniest special I ever saw? Not really, no, but it was very, very interesting what he was doing, playing with the form. It was sort of comedy as art. But look, there are people who managed to be very transgressive and tackle these topics and do very well out of it. The prime example of that is someone like Bill Burr. There's also Dave Chappelle, who does it very, very well, another comedy hero of mine. But these people are already very powerful. They already have huge audiences.

you know, for everybody else and for people who are wanting to break through, get into the clubs, do that type of material, it's almost impossible. If you want to get on TV, let's say you're a comedian who's written this incredible bit that's very gender critical. Are you going to get on mock the week doing that? And yet you feel that that would have happened 10 years ago. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely.

So why is it shifted like this? It's shifted for me because there's a very, very vocal minority of people. who complain, get angry. So, for instance, when we got signed to our comedy agent, there was a group of comedians who tried to organize a group to get us cancelled from our agent. But I think there's a, I mean, we could talk about this for many hours because one of the things we've explored on trigonometry, our show,

is that this isn't just about comedy, it's much more deep than that. But if we stick to the comedy, I mean, look, let's just name the culprits, shall we? Nika Burns, the organiser and founder of the Edinburgh Festival, right, she said in 2018 that she looked forward to a new era of woke comedy. Now, for people who don't know, the Edinburgh Festival is essentially the be-all and end-all in British comedy. If you don't go to the Edinburgh Festival, if you don't have a successful show there, if you don't do well, if you don't get seen by the right people,

if you don't get win the awards, you are not going to progress. You're not going to get on TV. Now, if the person running that says we need woke comedy, well, what chance does anyone who is not that have? And look, I want to make it very clear to anybody watching and to you yourself. Francis and I are delighted with where we are in our lives. There is no bitterness or any complaint or any, oh, I didn't get this opportunity.

I don't care. We're very happy with how our lives have been. I'm fine. I'm just fine, man. I'm absolutely fine. But by the same token, you know, I remember when I did my show, It was called Orwell The Enswell at Edinburgh in 2018

It was very successful I sold lots of tickets audiences loved it It went great I got a mixture of very good reviews Also the people who were politically against it gave me bad reviews But it was a good show

I can say that right And I remember talking to an older More experienced comedian who's a friend And he I had two of them sitting at the same table And one of them said Look I think you're going to get nominated for the award And the other one went, what are you talking about?

He's lucky he's not going to get assassinated. Right. Why? Was my show bad? Was it unfunny? No. It's because it had the wrong politics. I was saying freedom of speech is important.

And I was talking about people like Chelsea Russell, who was a teenager, who got arrested and given a hate speech prosecution and a criminal record, because she posted the lyrics of a rap song on her Instagram. Right? I was talking about people like that. I was talking about the fact that over 3,000. people a year in this country get arrested for saying the wrong thing. That's the wrong politics now, apparently, right? Yeah. And just to add to Constantine's point, the quote from Nika Burns is I'm looking forward to the next generation of woke comedians deciding what is and what isn't acceptable. Yeah, yeah. I mean, what would Billy Connolly have said about this? Yeah. Get to fuck.

Yeah, in three words. Yeah. What was the incident that you had been asked to to sign a contract. Can you tell us about that? Yeah, so that was what the show that I just talked about was based around. What happened was I was performing at Top Secret, which was one of the best comedy clubs in London, and as I was outside, a guy came up to me

who said, oh, I loved you set. Would you come and perform at our charity night to help us raise money for UNICEF or some other charity? I can't remember now the details. And I was like, okay, I'll happily donate my time to help you raise this money. And I forgot all about it.

And a few weeks later, I got an email from someone else saying, you said you'd be happy to perform. Here's a contract that we'd like you to sign. And the contract was called a behavioral agreement form. And it said that by signing this, you're agreeing to a zero-tolerance policy on the following things. Racism, sexism, classism, ageism, abelism, homophobia, bifobia, transphobia, xenophobia, Islamophobia, anti-religion, anti-Atheism. And it also said that all jokes must be respectful and kind.

That's funny. That is funny. And all I turned it down and I just said on my Twitter, which I had like 800 followers or something stupid at the time, I said, you know, I got offered this contract for comedy. This is, I can't remember. I either said this is disgusting or makes me puke or whatever. And it became a viral story.

This was the second biggest story on the BBC. news website on the day that Theresa May was nearly removed from office by her own party right so it obviously something resonated with the public and this is why whenever we talk about this I always bring it back to it's not just

a couple of whiny comedians the reason it went viral and the reason people really cared about it and responded to it was that they feel this thing in their own lives that they're constantly walking around like they've signed a contract not to make the wrong joke and not to

say the wrong thing. A lot of people feel that way now. And to me that was symbolic of how society has changed in recent years. Francis, you mentioned about council culture being brought in by a very vocal minority. Do you think a vocal minority can have that power, especially if comedians don't have that power and we're talking about if it had that power, it would have been banned by now. How come this vocal minority have got the power to change our whole society? Because what they have is they have a... It's the ones who shout the loudest are the ones that are heard. So people think that Twitter is a far bigger deal than it is.

So 12% of the British population are on Twitter, but therefore there is a storm on Twitter for whatever reason. Then people get very anxious, they get very worried. Companies worry about their public profiles. They don't want to associate with someone who is racist, sexist and whatever else. Oh, so I'll give you another example. I used to gig six nights a week at some of the biggest clubs in London. And I used to MC a lot for them.

So I had a lot of relationship with, you know, the clubs and, you know, the bookers and whatever else. And these are big clubs. These are clubs with seats of 250, 300 seats filling their rooms six nights a week pre-pandemic. And I remember saying to them, what's the situation been like with complaints? And each and every single one of them has said that complaints have been skyrocketed as a result. Now, have people changed? The vast majority of people don't care. The vast majority of people are very reasonable.

They'll go and watch comedy. If something's not funny, they'll be like, I just don't find it funny, or he wasn't very good, she wasn't great, or whatever else. But there is a small, entitled minority who will then go and make a complaint. And every time they make a complaint, they make life difficult for the Booker, the Booker will then think, you know what, do I really want to book this comedian? When there's so many comedians out there who can come and entertain my club, and they're not going to transgress.

They're not going to offend. They're not going to do this and that. And as a result, what is acceptable to talk about on stage, the Overton window narrows as a result. And you've seen it. And now they've started to go after podcasts. There was a podcast recently, you know, made jokes about disabled people.

And then a disabled charity got involved. And the comedians had to, you know, had to come and then start and then apologize for it. And my question is, I have a mother who's disabled, severely disabled, right? How is a disabled charity getting offended by a joke on a podcast helping my mum? Shouldn't that charity, instead of listening to the podcast, maybe think to themselves, hang on, it's a global pandemic. Disabled people are now more isolated than ever. What can we do to help these people and put support structures in place

in order that they can live their lives to the fullest extent and give them as much support as possible? But they don't do that. You know why? Because that's difficult. That's not going to garner headlines. What will garner headlines is getting offended by a joke a podcast because it's easy. Why are the vocal minority doing this?

What would be the impetus to shut people up? Well, it's funny because before we started the interview, we were talking about Jordan Peterson and lobsters, right? It's all about social signalling. It's all about saying, I'm a good person. Look at me. Look how virtuous I am. I voted, remain. I voted as we joked about earlier.

I'm a good person, right? I have the right opinions. I'm going after the people that need to be gone after. And it's incredible to me how many times we've seen it in comedy over the last 10 years where the people who are the most, I'm a male feminist, I'm this, I'm that, they're the ones that end up being outed

as being predators of one kind or another because they're all signaling stuff to cover up for shit. You're sort of actually making a contribution to people's lives in a positive way. It's, you know, a good mate of mine is an accountant and she always sits me down. and talks me about how she does the books of left-wing, does the accounts for left-wing journalists.

And they're always the ones that mown the most about the tax that they pay. And she's like, but you're left-wing. Surely you understand that your taxes then go to fund public, you know. So people love to virtue signal. They love to display how good people they are. Because a lot of the time

is to compensate for the fact that actually behind closed doors, they're not all that. Because here's the reality, Karen. None of us are perfect. We're all broken. We're all human. We all do and say things that we're not proud of. And the reality is this perfect, virtuous image

that these people try and create. It's just an image. We're all human. And that's the thing. They're denying their own humanity because what they're doing is they're denying the ability to transgress, but they're also denying the ability

to be forgiven and for redemption. And that's a real point of this. My God, almost want to like end with a hymn. Because that's, I totally agree with that. And that's just spot on. Do you find anything vanilla funny? Is there something that you've watched that's completely absent of anything

that smacks of a fence and you're rolling on the floor laughing? Yeah, of course. Look at Michael McIntyre. Yeah, yeah. Look at Michael. The most widely appealing comedy will always be vanilla to some extent, right? It will be about the day-to-day things of people's lives.

And Michael McEntry, a lot of people in the comedy world like to slag him off, mainly because they're just not as good as him, right? Michael McIntyre is one of the best comedians in this country. Why? Because he can make people laugh about anything, right? And you don't need to be offensive. Neither Francis or I were particularly offensive comics in terms of the material. That was one of the reasons it was kind of odd for us to be. feeling these things happening. There's loads of stuff. And, you know, neither of us would be like,

oh, yeah, all this stuff that you now see all of it is terrible. All of it is crap. We don't think of it in those ways. But at the same time, you do see things becoming diluted. And it's like a lack of flavor in your food. It's the same. It's bland and a lot of it is boring. Not all of it. Some of it is brilliant. But overall, the standards have slipped, in my opinion, the last 10 years. And you can see it in audience numbers, the audience numbers for BBC comedy, ITV, like all the different TV channels are going through the floor. And that's partly because of the impact of Netflix and technology, but it's partly because of quality as well. It completely is. And you go, you know, vanilla. I mean, I wouldn't really describe them as vanilla or describe me as mainstream. One of my all-time

favorite comics is Mickey Flanagan. You know, I'm, you know, my girlfriend's American and she was saying, you know, like American comedies, better than British comedy. Name me one British who's really naturally funny. And I played her, you know, Mickey Flanagan. And we sat there and we just laughed like Drain's watching it. He's a phenomenal comedian. And I'll tell you what, a bloody love a cat meme. I was showing you before you turned up. I was sharing a couple of cat memes. I love them. Humor, the thing that I love about humor is that it's so incredibly broad. You can be silly, you can be political, you can be satirical, you can be offensive, transgressive, you can be observational. It can all be brilliant. To put it very simply, Karen, people on our side of the argument

are saying, let's have freedom. Let's let people make the jokes that they want to make and let the audience decide what they want to see. We are not trying to shut anyone down. We're not trying to cancel vanilla comedians or progressive comedians or woke comedians. Let them do their jokes. Let them do whatever they want, right? But let everyone else do the jokes that they want to. And then let's see who likes what. Surely we can all get behind the idea that having more choice about the sort of comedy that we watch and listen to is a good thing. Absolutely. It's some people come to me and just go, oh, you must hate Hannah Gadsby. I'm like, why? What's happening with Hannah Gadsby? Oh, so Hannah Gadsby did a show called Nannette. And they go, don't you think that this is?

I'm like, no. I think it's great that she's got a career for herself. I think it's brilliant that she can do the elbow hole and do her comedy to her fans. More power to her. Now, would we go and watch that is a different thing. I have watched The Net. I didn't particularly think it was a good show, but, but that's my opinion, right? I could be completely wrong. I'm wrong all the time. Do you know what I mean? And I don't want people whose comedy I don't like to be shut down. That's the difference between me and the other side of this debate. Yeah. But why were you thinking, why were your friends thinking that you wouldn't like it? Don't, what did they say, don't you think this is, what was the blank. So, like, I mean, don't you think this is basically crap and whatever else? And, you know,

there are people who project what they think I'm thinking. Okay. And because I'm on a particular side of an argument, oh, well, you must think this. But there's also, there's a lot of polarization that's happened. So, and this is an issue for us. And, you know, our producer, Anton, actually put this much better than neither of us ever have. He said, what we do on the show is we hold the line. And sometimes we're on this side of the line and sometimes we're on that side of the line. And it is true that people who are often presenting themselves as pro-freedom and anti-cancel culture will very happily cancel people who have the wrong opinion for them, right? There's an inconsistency on both sides of this argument and we don't buy into either of those sides.

We are saying let's not cancel each other, let's listen to each other, let's have a bit of forgiveness, let's give each other the benefit of the doubt. If you made a joke that I didn't like, Did you make that joke because you're evil and you hate Russians or you hate Jews or you hate whatever? Or is it just because you were trying to make a joke and it didn't quite work out and we can just carry on as mates? Yeah, and that doesn't need to be under the guise of humour. You know, that's going to bleed out of people if it's in them, whether they're doing it as a joke or not. What does cancel culture as a myth mean? Well, the joke on the poster is Joseph Stalin, who famously cancelled quite a few people,

about 50 million people in my country. And we just thought it kind of, it shows you what's happening in society now because the very people who are running around organizing cancellations of other people, they are the same people who then say that cancel culture is a myth and doesn't exist. And to me, that's the perfect illustration, Joseph Stalin, who murdered millions of people and denied that any of that was happening. It's kind of the same process on a different way and a different level, where people are canceling people, forcing them to lose their careers, attacking them, being vicious to them. at the same time as pretending that they're good people who are not doing anything wrong. Is there anyone who's been

cancelled publicly that it's helped their career? Probably. Probably. I can't think any on the top of my head. No. It's true. You're right. What happens is it depends on what you do as the person who's being cancelled, right? And also it depends on what you're being cancelled for.

I mean, if you're being cancelled for genuinely doing something wrong, then that's different to being cancelled for something you haven't done wrong, you know? That's a big difference because, you know, by the same token of when we talk about forgiveness, you can't forgive someone who doubles down on something wrong that they've done, right? Forgiveness requires a degree of contrition, you know. So there will be people, absolutely, who've been cancelled and have moved up as a result. And to me, that's the right decision.

If you're being cancelled for something when you've done nothing wrong, of course you should run with it. Of course you should make hay well that is happening. Of course you should. What should you lie down and just give up because some people decided you need to be destroyed? Do you think some people are trying to get cancelled on purpose

to get more publicity? Who is it? Lee Hust, some of the stuff that he's putting out, you just think, what are you trying to do? Lee Hirst is like a multi-millionaire. Why does he need to get cancelled? I think he just likes rubbing people up the wrong way, I think. Look, I'm sure, hypothetically speaking, there is someone somewhere that's trying to get cancelled to get attention.

But I think that argument is often of used. Like, when I turned down that contract, I turned it down because I come from a family in Russia where almost all of my grandparents and great-grandparents were put in the gulag for having the wrong opinion. So to me, the idea that I now in Britain in 2021, and people are telling me what I can and can't say. That's abhorrent to me, and that's why I may understand.

But a lot of people said that I did it for their attention when I tweeted it to 800 people, right? And if I could make stories go viral, there'd be a story about me saying every fucking day, right? Do you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. Where do you guys go next to your comedy in this era? Right, well, we have a lot of very, very big plans.

We really, at the moment, we're focusing on doing our interview, We've started to branch into live shows. We're going to see what happens with the issue of vaccine passports. That's been another completely blindsided us. However, we've also wanted to go into writing satirical, writing sketch, because there's a lot, a lot of topics that mainstream, particularly BBC, won't touch. And if they do touch, I'll only touch on it from a particular angle. So we're going to be looking to, let's look at the flip side.

Let's look at what other people actually think. and tackling these subjects and also trying to make a point with them because that's to me the art of great comedy is where you make someone laugh and you go, well, have you thought about this? Not telling them what to think, that's very, very different but going, have you thought about this other way

of looking at it? And that to me is the art of great comedy and really we want to be moving into that as well. But that also comes when the show gets bigger when we have more bandwidth, when we have more money and then you have more that you can invest in these particular types.

projects. Are you frightened? No. Frightened to be percussions or being recognised and people abusing you? No. No. No. The truth is, as, you know, the point that we've made, we, to a large extent, made ourselves pariahs in the comedy industry, knowingly, knowingly. When we... Lesson you. Yeah. When we sat down to start the show, I said to Francis, you're going to get attacked by comedians, people are going to call you evil,

they're going to say your right wing when you're not, they're going to call you a Nazi, you're going to lose opportunities, and he didn't believe me. Well, now he does. But at the same time, look at where we're sitting. We've been rewarded for what we've done.

So we have absolutely no fear. Comedy people can't cancel us, right? The only people we are answerable to is our audience, right? And our audience are from all over the political spectrum. We have Mumsnet feminists who watch our show and people on the right and people on the left and people in the middle and a lot of people in comedy who'll never say they'll watch the show, but they do, right? And they will message us privately. Why would people in comedy

admit to watch a new show? Because they know the industry they're in. They know that if they admit to watching us, they're going to get cancelled. A mate of mine and they're a great comedian and I've deliberately hidden their gender as their gender as well. That means they're a woman. Yeah. And this person, not necessarily, this person, said, I love your show. I could never admit it publicly because I'd get cancelled. And this person is on the point of breaking through. And to be honest, they've made the correct decision. They have. Really? They've made the absolutely correct decision. If you want a mainstream career, don't admit to having any wrong opinions. That's the society we live in now. Do you think that wholeness is

just a fashion and the ass is going to fall out here? You know, everything is cyclical and we'll come back to the comity of offense? No, I mean, I'm not saying wokeness is here forever, but wokeness in many ways for all our distaste and disagreement with its central tenants is based on some valid concerns.

What are they? Well, if you have a society in which young people have no chance of ever accumulating capital, they don't have access to the housing market, they're completely alienated from it, by and large, how are you going to expect them to buy into the system?

How are you going to expect people who don't have capital to be capitalist, right? And if you want, you know, people, we argue with conservatives about this all the time as well. I often say to conservatives, how are you expecting young people to become traditionalists and conservatives? When they have nothing to conserve. They don't have anywhere to live, so they can't get married, so they can't start a family, which are the things that will make you settle down and look after your community and think more long-term about things and be a bit more grounded

and you start paying tax and you kind of realize things aren't as simple as just going, give me more free stuff. How is that going to happen if people can't find a place to live? They can't get married, they can't have kids. How is that going to happen? Do we know living a society at the moment

that just gives you free stuff anyway? Well, that's what we've turned into. Yeah. You know, and that's another point. You know, we're kind of now live in a society where everyone's seeing at home, they're getting a load of free stuff. And people seem fine with it.

And you can't blame them. I never blame people for taking free stuff that they're offered. It's the logical choice for you as an individual to do that. You cannot blame people for doing that. But the truth is, unless we give people the opportunity to do well for themselves, they will never adopt a mentality of can-do, go, get, etc. That will never happen. So to me, the idea that some people think that the solution is, you know,

we go conservative about this, is complete nonsense. You've got to fix the housing crisis. You've got to get people the opportunity to advance in their lives. Otherwise, all the social shit that comes from that is never going away. Yeah. Is there any topic that would be off limits to you in comedy?

You think, do you know what? Even if that's the greatest joke ever written, that's going to hurt people? No. No, because if it's the greatest joke ever written, then it's going to be undeniably brilliantly funny. So there have been many a time where you've probably watched

you've probably watched a comedian go, I don't really agree with that joke, but it's brilliant, number one, and it's made you laugh. And then number two, it's a joke. It's not meant to be taken seriously. It's not about topics. It's about the angle of approach, right? You can make a deeply offensive joke about a deeply in offensive subject and vice versa. What about the axiom time plus tragedy equals comedy. Does there need to be time before we can speak about something or is that what makes it so I can't believe he said that comedy is that it's just happened? Well look at one of the greats Joan Rivers when her husband committed suicide I think it was six days later or five days later she was making jokes about it and she said people were saying to how can you do that your your husband has

just died and she went this is is how I cope. I cope with laughing. That is what we do as human beings. We all know that we're doomed. We all know that we're going to die. We all know that we're fragile. Fucking hell, I keep it lie. Yeah. Comedy. But exactly. But we make jokes to make the darkness more bearable. Totally. Well, I do. And that's exactly, you know, what is, there's an old saying, what is comedy, but making the unbearable bearable? So that's... Of course. And you think, who's got the darkest sense of humour? Medics. Police officers, firefighters. Because they, they see the real darkness of life.

But then was John Rivers now making a joke about something that had happened to herself and therefore that gives her permission? Yeah, but the fact that her husband died, her husband had a daughter. He had brothers. He probably had brothers. He had surrounding family. Yeah, anybody else that's lost somebody to suicide.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It just ripples out. Yeah, you know, that's, to me, that's how we cope with all the things that happen. We just do. Hey, Constantine, do you love Trigonometry? Of course, incredible interviews, hilarious live streams, hard-hitting satire, plus my handsome jawline. Whatever takes away from your hairline.

But if you do love Trigonometry and you want to support us, there's only one place to do that, and that's on Locals. Yes, Locals is a brilliant platform that has been incredibly supportive to our show and other problematic creators. The great thing about locals is that it's a community for people who, love trigonometry. That's right. It's a place for you to hang out with like-minded people, share thoughts, memes and discuss the show. You can enjoy it for free, but it also gives you the option of supporting us for as little as $7 a month. And if you want to give more, you can. We have incredible rewards for our higher tier supporters as well. We've got everything for mugs, monthly

group calls and one on two chats with me and KK. Get in. Join our community by hitting the link in the description and the pin comment below. So yesterday I went to television and media operations at BBC. We watched sketches, some of my sketches that were now cancelled or edited out of the, you know, an extra piece. One of them was about an old woman who was looking after her grandson in her house and he, they looked, there was a chest in the corner. The grandson asked what was in the chest.

about seven and the old woman took him to show him it was a chest that your grandfather brought back from Singapore and when we opened it up this funky music come out and dry ice and a pole and there was a pole dancer in it and you know

so the kids looking sort of actually I don't know if you looked shocked you might have been intrigued is it right for me to say that fucking hell anyway and the kids looking at it and the granny's watching quite whimsically saying you know your grandfather was

off or phone to that chest while this pole dancer dances. So that's being cut for child safety. What do you think about that? Child safety? Yeah, to protect children from sexualization. Yeah. I mean, there's plenty of sexualization of children going on. I don't think that's the worst culprit right there, do you? To me, that is a corporation, that is an organization protecting its back because they're leaving themselves open to charges of, you know, it's a safeguarding issue. But also, isn't that an issue that's solved by advisory ratings? Like, this is a suitable for people over the age of whatever. Like, if you want to protect children, why do you have to cancel a bit or remove a bit?

Can't you just say, this show is only suitable for people over 16 or with parental guidance or whatever? Yeah. The thing is, if it's to protect the child actors, the actors have already, done the scene. So how are you protecting them from something that's already happened to them? That makes no sense. It's all about signaling. And this is what the point we're trying to get across to you. This is about the organization trying to look virtuous. Oh, look at this. We've done everything. The actors have already done the scene. They've already been quote unquote traumatized or whatever the word is, right? You're not fixing anything when it comes to that. All you're doing is trying to signal

to other people how good and progressive and virtuous you are. It's always happening there. also as well, we live in an era where every kid, and as a former teacher, you know, I've seen it my own eyes, gets given a smartphone. If you give you a child a smartphone at the age of 10, they're about three clicks away from accessing the hardest of the hardcore pornography. Two. Yeah. So the reality is that you're protecting from what? A woman dancing suggestively in a bikini is far more wholesome than all the multitude of pornography sites that exist currently on the internet. Do we still have a duty of care? Whether we're seen to be doing it or no be seen to be doing it, do we still have a duty of care to try and protect the kids from seeing that? I mean, it's already been shot.

But like we said, advisory ratings, PG or 15 or 16 or whatever it is. What about the edits that have been done in Faulty Towers for racist views? How does that change anything? But here's the thing, you know. society changes. That is a reflection of society in the 1970s. Or we're just going to pretend it didn't happen? Are we just going to put our fingers in our ears and go la, la, la, la?

No, that's how society was. And in many ways, we should be giving ourselves a little power on the back going, we don't behave like that anymore. You wouldn't want to say that anymore. That's fine, isn't it? But if that episode of Faulty Towers went out in its entirety and used those words, is that no given

racist's license to use them because they've seen it on the BBC. Come on. This is all a bunch of crap, this whole argument, and I don't mean this person to you. No, no, I don't take care of it.

This is all a bunch of obsession about racism that, as I said to you before we started, Britain is not a racist country. There is a handful of idiots who go and send, you know, stupid messages to footballers and whatever. They're a tiny, tiny minority. idea that some racist, or rather take it like this, what, someone who wasn't racist

watched something on the BBC and now they became racist because they saw John Cleese. Come on. You know, it's... What is this? A few years ago when I was in the Edinburgh Festival, it's about 2014. I looked Jewish, right? There was a group of Scottish football fans behind me in Edinburgh and they sang the words behind me, I'd rather be a Paki than a Jew, right?

Okay, it's all four. It's abhorrent. I didn't particularly like it when it was happened. Does it reflect Scotland as a whole? Yes. But anyway, I'm joking. But of course it doesn't. But the idea that somehow those groups were all very liberal and tolerant,

they sat down in front of Little Britain and went, hang on a second, boys, let's go. I've got a few ideas here. I'd just find it. Yeah, but we wouldn't be making Little Britain now. Should we be? I don't have a problem with Little Britain. No.

I don't have a problem at all. I thought it was hilarious. Yeah. You know, the idea that, See, this is a problem with I have of quite a lot of people on the left is they feel we need to molly-collar people, we need to protect them. And it's also paternalistic and, dare I say, incredibly patronising because they think people are stupid.

And if they think people are stupid, they're incapable of thinking for themselves. Most people realise when you watch comedy that it's comedy, it's ridiculous, it's a joke. People don't go and watch an Arnold Schwarzenegger film and then think he can take out 60 men with a flame to our. No, that's it. I agree. I agree.

But don't show that. We will on our show. Yeah, you can. You can because I do agree and I don't know what to do with it. And I'm frightened of agreeing. Let me ask you, though. You're a gay woman, grew up in Scotland.

I don't imagine that was always easy, right? But I imagine that your experience has made you tougher, made you able to deal with stuff, made you able to write comedy, all of the, it made you who you are. Mm-hmm. Right? Yeah. So why would we molly coddle everyone and protect them from everything?

I experienced racism as a kid. I didn't particularly like it. I'm not saying it's necessary to develop into a fully-fledged human being. But would I want to be locked in a room just so no one's racist to me? But if I had the choice of, you know, creating something from my trauma. Yeah. Or no trauma. I'll take no trauma.

Sure. Yeah. But is that realistic, though? That's the question, right? How much damage do you have to do to do to everything else just to get no one to ever say the wrong thing ever again? What do you have to do? You have to put everybody in prison, then you might be able to.

Do we want to do that? I don't think so, right? That's the thing. But you're afraid you were saying. Why are you afraid? I'm afraid of ostracization. I'm afraid of judgment. I'm afraid of violence. I'm afraid because I'm recognized as well that if someone watches, no, and you can put this out, because it's true, that if someone watches,

your stuff and sees me saying this or some of the things that I've said, they'll jump on that and say, did you hear what Camden Bar said, and that will blow up into something and I kind of go to Tesco. So I'm afraid of that. So that's why I'm asking you. You're not scared. Yeah, of course, but see, I totally get that. But then take a step back and think that you're not Karen Dunbar,

you're someone watching that. The fact that you feel that way, what does that tell you about the society that we live in? But is that in it? I felt that fear when I was in the 70s. Saying the wrong thing? Yeah. It would have just been a different wrong thing.

What was it? Well, I don't know. You know, I don't like your hair. You know, it was whatever the wrong thing is, I don't think matters. It's the fear that's attached to saying the wrong thing, surely, because whatever it is that you put out the tribe. Yeah.

Yeah. That's the... And do you know what? As somebody who has been kicked out of the tribe, it's incredibly painful. You're right in many ways to fear it. because when you go through that process, it's an incredibly lonely feeling. I'm glad where I am. I'm happy I've done what I've done. I wouldn't change it.

Are you talking about it in the last 18 months? In the last 18 months. But the process of ostracization is difficult. We're tribal. We are built to be in a tribe, to be accepted, to be part of the group. To be ostracized from the group, it's painful. And when you say you fear it, it's a very rational thing to fear. But the point comes with this. What is more important to you? Is it to be accepted or is it to have integrity? That's the question.

Every day of the week it would be accepted. And that but that's the... And I'm embarrassed to say that and yet it's the truth. So let me just state it. And I'm saying every day a week and that's no 100% true, Francis. But the draw to integrity is taken away by the threat of violence. whether it's outwardly or in my mind and violence may be strong

but having experienced extreme homophobia and having been ostracized through that then it's that muscle memory that's like, I'm not going to go through that again. I've had enough trauma to make comedy from I can't deny that. That's what I'm going through. Yeah, and that's fair enough.

And that's why we never ever say to people this is what you must do and we never say to people, you're wrong for not speaking the truth or whatever. Everybody's got to make their own decisions. But to me, the fact that you fear whatever you fear as a result of speaking your mind in the same way that you feared homophobes attacking you in the street, to me that tells me something about the society that we live in. And there's also a question, if you fear it so much, then why are you here?

Why are you doing this documentary? Well, exactly, because at the core, the fears and the mind, the core of me is where the pull to integrity is. And I'm, I'm when you say I'm consciously trying to work against that, but I can't not because it's intrinsic. And so probably that's why I'm here. And even, I can feel the difference between the flow of conversation that we had when we come in and how I'm acting now that I'm being recorded. I feel it. And I don't like it. I fear the results

it. And I know that it may be edited differently for the BBC and you may put this out exactly as it is. And so I'm every word that's coming out, there's a my amygdars like a careful bank, but watch, redirect, da-da-da-da-da, and I'm trying to work against that. And this is, you know,

my level of courage at the moment is being able to even just admitting that. And I'm sure, hopefully if anybody's watching this and Trigonometry, and I'm not trying to dare rally and call or anything, but they're like that. I know. I know what am I going to do about that? And what's the risk to me trying to live with integrity? But let me tell you something that people don't talk about enough. People think that courage is this mystical thing.

Courage is a muscle. The more you work on it, the more you build it, the more you say what you think, the more you stand up for what you believe, the stronger it gets. Totally. I totally. And this is another significant step for you. to come out and just to say this is what I think I and what I believe. And, you know, as somebody who loves musical theatre, it's that famous song, Life ain't worth a damn until you can say I am what I am. Don't you? I mean, don't worry, because you heard me at somebody that loves musical theatre. Are you talking with me? Oh my God, you're talking about you. Oh, we are one, sympathical.

So, oh God. So I'll ask you the question this time, guys. time, guys. What as a society are we not talking about that we should be talking about? I mean, there's one thing that some people are talking about, but I think not enough people understand what's happened in the last 18 months to people's brains. We've just released an interview with someone who talked about how the government weaponized behavioral science to brainwash people and scare people into being unduly afraid of COVID. Now, let's be very clear, COVID is a deadly disease, which is dangerous to many people. No one's denying that. And some of the...

the measures that were taken to protect people were absolutely necessary and if people are vulnerable whether because they're elderly or whatever they should take the vaccine blah blah you know all the fucking disclaimers that you want right but the truth is I am deeply uncomfortable deeply uncomfortable as someone who comes from a society which I've seen be authoritarian at times with the percentage of the British public who are happy who are happy look at some of the polling numbers 20% of people in this country even if the there is no COVID, would happily accept a 10 p.m. curfew. Really?

Stay at home forever from 10 p.m. until the morning. No COVID. Where's that statistic? It's from one of the recent polls. Look it up. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think it is. It was an Ipsomori poll, right? Apparently, the majority of people support vaccine papers, right? This is literally Papyr and bitter territory here.

You're talking about segregating people based on their medical status for a disease. And this is really just to force young people to take the vaccine. To young people, COVID is less dangerous than flu. Right. So you're forcing young people to inject something into their body that's newly created. We don't know the long-term effect of it, right? You're doing that by threatening to take away their rights,

which are God-given, if you believe in God, right? It's like saying, well, if you don't take the vaccine, we're going to take a driving license away. What? How did that happen in 21st century Britain? We're not in Soviet Russia here. And no one seems to understand that this is, this is, they've crossed the line here. They've absolutely crossed the line.

And I'm amazed that artists aren't coming out against this. Comedians aren't coming. Musicians because we're the ones that are supposed to be like, yeah, free for all, you know, do whatever. No, that fucking conformist to, to a level that I cannot understand. Yeah, but artists, comedians in it so that they can, get capital so that they can buy into capitalism so that they can get the house and they can get married and have the kids or whatever that road is. Therefore, you either speak the truth, you come out against it and give up your house or you keep your head in, do vanilla and have a

nice, wee, quiet life. There's room for enough people to do either, really. Yeah. There's room, I'm not saying every single comedian and every single artist and whatever, but there's got to be more people than the ones that are speaking out that could do, you know. And the fact that people aren't shocked, are not shocked to the core at the widespread acceptance of this authoritarianism and this slippery slope from one thing to another to another, I am incredible, I'm just amazed that that's the case. I'm amazed that that's the case. And for me, it's the latest bill that Priti Patel is trying to get through Parliament to make it illegal for journalists to embarrass the government, punishable by up to 14 years in jail. So, for instance, those journalists who

handled the Matt Hancock video of him getting it on with his advisor, they would now be in jail. And that is a story that is in the public interest, that the health minister was a hypocrite who was breaking the regulations that he implemented on our country. But it's going to be illegal for journalists to break that story with 14 years in general. Is that going to go through? We don't know. We don't know. But they're trying.

But that's why we're raising both of these issues. Same with vaccine passports. I don't think they're going to go through. But they're threatening people with taking away their rights so that people take the vaccine that some young people choose not to. That's the fucking choice. It's a free society. That's where we are in 2021.

We are facing a real challenge to our civil liberty. by a government whose mask has slipped and they're incredibly authoritarian. And we all of us, left, right, center, woke, anti-woke, progress, whatever you, it doesn't matter anymore. The culture war stuff, I still, it's important. But this, what we're talking about now,

we need to be fighting this. Every single person on this island, tooth and nail, because once these liberties are gone, you ain't going to get them back. Look at what happened after 9-11. Look at what happened after some guy took some shoes or a bottle of water that he tried to use. Are you able to go on the plane since? Without having your shoes checked, without having to...

Once the government takes the freedom, they're never giving it back. Never. And they are trying to cross several lines here that are just not acceptable. What do you see then the lane of that? If we don't stand up, it's a slippery slope. It starts with festivals, live events. nightclubs, then they're going to bring it in restaurants, pubs, coffee shops. And it will eventually end with you having to take a vaccine. I'm not anti-vax, neither is Constantine. I am against a government

coercing you, twisting your arm, essentially forcing you into injecting something into your body. That is wrong. And that is what the government will do. These vaccine passports are ID cards on steroids. That will mean they can track every... single one of your movement. So you will have to present it in a pharmacy, in a shop. That's where it's going to end up, unless you stand up now. Yeah. What about the argument that that's already happening if you've got an iPhone? It's not untrue. It's not untrue. But the fact that the government is doing it is different. Because the government is far more incompetent. And so all of these databases are going to get hacked. The information is going to leak. People are going to find out

your personal medical details. They're going to blackmail you. They're going to docks you if you've got the wrong opinion or whatever. So you don't want to, trust me, trust me, you do not want to open this Pandora's box. I can get a Nokia 3210 and that still means that I can go and have, you know, I can still go to Glastonbury or whatever else. Fuck sake, quits to be done. We are really a hell in a hand cap stuff. It is? It is. That's why courage is needed. Yeah. Oh, fuck off with your courage. Let me just, you know, zoned out, zombie-fied in front of Netflix with a packet of kettle chips

and go and see my pals. They're the best. Oh, dry the mouth, but yes, I would do. They're good. And, you know, go for a walk around the park as long as I'm in by 10. Yep. Oh! Wow!

Yeah. You know, this is how much your government have taken the piss. They banned selling alcohol in Scotland. Scotland. And when I heard that, I'm like, are they trolling you? I don't know if that's all bad. Karen, thanks so much for coming and talking to us, asking us a question. It's been a pleasure to meet you and all the very best of luck with the documentary.

Likewise. And thanks, guys, for all your honesty and your courage. And if you never see me again, know that you were wanted, needed and loved. Thank you very much. Guys, we will see you for another terrific episode or live stream, and they always go out, same time, 7pm UK time, 2pm, Eastern Standard. Take care and see you soon. We hope you've enjoyed this incredible interview. Remember to subscribe and hit the bell button so that you never miss another fantastic episode.

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