TRIGGERnometry - Being Cancelled Made Me Confront and Beat Addiction - Dapper Laughs

Episode Date: February 11, 2024

Daniel O'Reilly (AKA Dapper Laughs) is a British comedian and social media content creator. In 2014 his ITV series and live tour were cancelled following heavy public criticism and allegations of sexism. In this episode we discuss Dan's journey; the cancellation, his struggles with addiction and the road to recovery. Check out Dan on tour: https://www.laughsmerch.com/tour-dates SPONSOR: Shopify - sign up for a £1 per month trial at https://www.shopify.co.uk/trigger/ SPONSORED BY: ExpressVPN. Go to https://www.expressvpn.com/trigger/ and get an extra 3 months free on a one-year package! Join our Premium Membership for early access, extended and ad-free content: https://triggernometry.supercast.com OR Support TRIGGERnometry Here: Bitcoin: bc1qm6vvhduc6s3rvy8u76sllmrfpynfv94qw8p8d5 Music by: Music by: Xentric | [e-mail] | https://www.xentricapc.com/ YouTube: @xentricapc Buy Merch Here: https://www.triggerpod.co.uk/shop/ Advertise on TRIGGERnometry: [e-mail] Join the Mailing List: https://www.triggerpod.co.uk/#mailinglist Find TRIGGERnometry on Social Media: https://twitter.com/triggerpod https://www.facebook.com/triggerpod/ https://www.instagram.com/triggerpod/ About TRIGGERnometry: Stand-up comedians Konstantin Kisin (@konstantinkisin) and Francis Foster (@francisjfoster) make sense of politics, economics, free speech, AI, drug policy and WW3 with the help of presidential advisors, renowned economists, award-winning journalists, controversial writers, leading scientists and notorious comedians. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

You are kind of the OG cancelee. You got cancelled long before that was sort of talked about. I am kind of like the poster boy for cancel culture. Press got involved, pressured the homeless charities not to take my donations. That is the most journalist thing to do. You know what? We're going to do the right thing. We're going to prevent a homeless charity from getting money.

I didn't really know how to handle it at the time. My management certainly didn't. How do I stop it? And they suggested news night. And that's how I ended up on news night in a turtleneck saying, sorry. The worst thing was, was the apology actually made it worse. Hello, mate. Hello.

It's great to have you on the show. And one of the reasons is you are kind of the OG cancelee. You got cancelled long before that was sort of talked about and properly as well. And I also think there was kind of no blueprint for how to deal with that as well. So you had to find your own way through it. We'll talk about all of that. Tell people a little bit about what happened. with you, what you were doing, the comedy character, all of that. Yeah, I am kind of like the poster

boy for cancel culture. I think for many years as well, after I got cancelled, anything to do with misogyny or sexism, my name would always fly into that. And it was difficult. But, yeah, I didn't really know how to handle it at the time. My management certainly didn't. But to cut a long story short, I created a character back in a day when there was Vine. I was one of the first social media, I wouldn't like to say influences, comedians. I was doing a stand-up comedy circuit and I had a business. So I always used to create alternative egos online, different characters, to sort of shield me from being out there.

Because I actually started on the cruise ships doing cruise ship comedy. So it's like family friendly stuff where you got to entertain the mom, the grandma and the kids at the same times. And when I come back to the UK, I realized the comedy clubs, you know they didn't like that you had to really push it and then I really sort of exaggerated that online and dappalafs was one of the characters that I'd created that was sort of the main one on on vine and it was really an exaggerated lad culture character and he always lost he'd chase the birds you know you'd try and pull women and all that but he always ended up the butt of

a joke but it was all done on my phone right so you know um so Some people, I think, couldn't see the difference between me and the character, even though it was outrageous, scripted, sketch-based comedy. And it blew up. And then I've got a TV show on ITV2 called Dapper Laughs on the Pool, where we taught men out to pull women with comedy. And then the world went mental about it. It was, yeah, it was... And what was it that actually triggered people going after you? Because you were doing live shows to your audience.

And you said something? I don't even remember what I was. Yeah, I mean, they call it a rape joke. They said it was a rape joke. What it was, that whole situation was, it was like a melting pop. It was like bubbling because I was arguing with journalists for a long time on the lead up to that. Stuff had happened where I bought out like a Christmas album and I'd made jokes in there

about homeless people, but we were raising money for the homeless and the press got involved, pressured the homeless charities not to take my donations. So that was like the first thing. That was the first thing I sort of, yeah, I know. That is the most journalist thing to do. You know what? We're going to do the right thing. We're going to prevent a homeless charity from getting.

Money. Yeah, it was because, yeah, it was the craziest thing. It's because I'd use the word tramp in there. And you've got to remember this is like 15, 10, 10 or 11 years ago. You know, I was a lot younger, a lot less what I'd say, educated. And I didn't really care about the language I used. I was all just about the comedy. And, you know, I didn't realize how sensitive the world was and stuff like that.

And you found out, though. I found out quick. Yeah, I found out quick. But I couldn't get my head around that. And that was like a tipping point for me. because I was like, look, I've raised a lot of money here. And they'd used, the charity actually ended up using it for his marketing campaign. You know, we won't accept money from the likes of these people.

And I was, I went, you know, back on social media. And I was like, imagine if I was walking around, handing money out, you know, and making jokes, would they not take, they wouldn't care. They just want the money. They want the, you know. And I couldn't get my head around it. And I argued then my vines were getting bought up and lots of different things. But the actual night that it sealed the deal for me and ended. it all, I was doing a show. And just before I went on, I think it was the Huffington Post or

something like that, had done a piece calling my TV show an Almanac for rape culture, because I was basically giving men a makeover and then taking them out and teaching them out to chat up girls with jokes and stuff like that. And then they were talking to women, you know, that's the same as rape, mate. Yeah. Well, do you know what I mean? But I thought, I thought it was giving men confidence. I mean, you're the new Ted Bundy now, you know what I mean? Yeah. Crack a joke, now I'll get them. But yeah, and I was angry about it. I really was.

My family has been affected by sexual violence, right? So actually in our family, we have had horrible situations like that. And I got backlash from my friends and family because of this article. And it was the first time it really hit home to me. You know, what they were saying, that I was pro-rape in this article. And I lost my shit. And I went out on stage and I was venting. And I said, you know, if I wanted to make a TV show that was an almanac for,

rape if I wanted to teach men to rape I wouldn't have written six 30 minute episodes I just would have done one one minute episode and said go down the road get some duct tape you know and that's how I was painting it I was like if I wanted to do that that's what I would have done you know poke in front of the journalist and then a woman at the front had said well my friend Susie or whatever she loves you she's gagging for a rape and I went there you go she's gagging for a rape and what they've done is they got they got the clip but but it was sinister because when they got the clip they clipped it so I went you know what you want to do go down the road get some duct tape. She's gagging for a rape.

And it banged it was out. Is that what happened? Is that what happened? That was circulated on the internet by all of the publications. So your metros and all of that. And, you know, by, within three days, there was 60,000 people signed a petition to get the pro-rape comedian off ITV2.

And that was the beginning of the end. Fucking. That was the level of misrepresentation. I didn't know any of this. It was horrific. But look, and I've battled. with my, because I've been on a mad journey through my sobriety, you know, because that turned me into an alcoholic and a drug addict and, you know, I lost my mind. I was suicidal. It was crazy. But I've been on this mad journey where I've looked back and I've gone, you have to take some responsibility, you know, for the silly things you've said in order to heal from it. So I went through a phase of like, really believing that, you know, maybe there was some malice. And it wasn't until I really got sober, which has only been the last year where I look back and I was like, look, you may have been a bit of a twat, but. There was no malice in that, you know, forgive yourself.

And, you know, you became, you know, I had millions of followers. And, you know, maybe some of the stuff I was saying was a bit much. Now having daughters, I look at it differently. But yeah, Jesus, it was a hatchet job. And so the video came out. It obviously went viral. Then what happened? Well, my manager called me in and said they're now, because I had a tour,

which I've been paid a massive advance for, big UK tour. And my manager came in and said, right, the press, the journalists are now targeting the venues, saying, sending, you know, so the actual journalists were tweeting the venues saying, have you seen our piece on the pro-rape comedian that's coming to your tour? So my manager, we had a crisis meeting, and they were like, the venues are dropping, right? So the tour is getting cancelled. So that was the next big hit, you know, the money that you have earned from this is got to go back and you might even get sued, which I did actually end up getting doing.

I got, there was a lot of financial implications to the commitments I've made because of what they considered was my behaviour at one of my gigs. So that was the first thing the tour was scrapped. The tour was cancelled. TV show was scrapped. Then my management, then the press were contacting the other artists on the roster. So the other, the other talent and putting pressure on them, do you want to really be on a roster with the pro-rape guy? So then the management said, sorry, mate. Our talent is saying they're going to leave if you don't live. leave so you're fired. So then my management dropped me. And then my dad died within within a short

amount of time. I think a matter of weeks. He randomly passed away. And then that was really like a big rock bottom for me. And I said, and the press, I couldn't stop the press. They were like everywhere. And I asked my management just before they'd sort of let me go, how do I stop it? And they suggested news night, go on news night and apologize. And that's how I ended up on news night in a turtleneck saying sorry. Which you will do when you're about to kill yourself. Yeah. Isn't it really interesting, Dan, that the complete lack of empathy that people had when

you were facing financial ruin, your father had just passed away, and it didn't matter because they were still coming in. Yeah. And they were still trying to eviscerate and destroy every semblance of your career. Yeah. The worst thing was, was the apology actually made it worse. I finally realized that they don't want an apology. They want you to die or they want you to go.

And I couldn't comprehend. What I thought to my, because I'm extremely motivated and I believe creatively I'm talented, and I thought this is going to be really bad. But I'll come back from it and I'll create again and I'll build it back up again. But I realized very soon that, you know, I'd made a mistake to them that was so bad that I was never allowed to be a comedian again and never allowed to perform never allowed to have an audience never it doesn't matter what they just don't want me here to see me and that that was when i was like well what else do i have you know it was it was a strange it was like that it happened as well

that was what i was alluding to when i said there was no uh kind of nobody knew how to deal with it because if that were to happen now there's 53 different ways you could deal with it that probably would be to your advantage in the current climate because you're you're you're you're you just do a video showing how they misrepresenting what happened. And then loads of people would come out on your side and you'd carry on, etc. But back then, I also think it's probably the case that the media had way more power than they do now,

right? Would that be fair to say, do you think? Yeah. And I think 100%. And I also think that the public are wise to it. I think like before the clickbait, they didn't know it was clickbait, you know.

So, say for instance, I was doing gigs. Say, for instance, there was one up in Glasgow that they managed to get canceled quite. early on and they simply just had an article that said pro-rape comedian coming to Glasgow right and you had to click on it to go through to actually see the context of what I'd done but who clicks on articles not a lot of people right so I could see all the

comments going ain't even reading it don't want him here da da da da da da da da now people are I think a little bit more intelligent to how the media behave and also after we've had the deaths of people you know like Caroline Flack and other people you know where the media basically killed them or pushed them into killing them themselves, if the talent pushes back a little bit, especially with mental health, they ease off like Phillips Schofield. But to me, I was, to me, I was just at the bottom of a packet of cocaine and in a pub, do you know what I mean? I was just like, if I hide for long enough, maybe when I'll come back up, they'll be gone, but it didn't stop for years, years.

You know what I find really hypocritical about all this? Is that Frankie Boyle has been doing rape jokes since God knows when. Yeah. They're online. You can. You can't. You can, can go and see them. Doesn't affect him. No one says he's a pro-rape comedian, but you. Yeah. Again, it wasn't until I sobered up that I'd look back on this and I could look at it from an educated point of view. I think that what comes into it, especially the difference maybe with people like Frankie Boyle and Jimmy Carr, I initially thought maybe it's classism. Do you know what I mean? Maybe the way that the journalist or the way that the industry is, look, he's dangerous. He's not intelligent enough to be being ironic.

Do you know what I mean? Whereas Jimmy Carr, we know he's educated. He doesn't mean it. It's a joke, right? But then I think it's got to do with social media following. I was one of the first of it, a million on Facebook, a million on Snapchat. I was growing. And I think that they get intimidated, especially the big newspaper publications and people in charge.

I think they get intimidated by your influence. Yeah. And I think there's also probably an element. of like there's a difference between a character and a comedian telling jokes. And I think frankly, a lot of people in the media don't understand comedy. So they don't understand that it's possible.

And I've come up with like, I remember doing this thing when Jerry Sadowitz's kid got cancelled in Edinburgh. Yeah. Doing a thing for the BBC, it's on our channel where the guy goes, well, but isn't the opinions that this guy expressed, aren't they terrible?

I was going, it's like fucking character. Yeah. Like they're not the opinions of this person. He's, it's like Macbeth. You go, you don't go and see Macbeth and go, oh, my God, someone stabbed someone. It's a show. Yeah, but, yeah, I mean, look, around the same sort of time or not just, or maybe not too far after, was the age of Ali G. Yes.

And Ali G was on Channel 4 walking out underneath a big woman's batty, you know, coming out and doing all these sexual innuendos. But, you know, again, he's a highly educated, well-spoken, you know, I don't know what it is. I was a working class lad off a council state playing a working class lad. Yes. You know, but look, it's maybe I should have been a little bit more intelligent. If I could turn back time now, I would have gone on Newsnight as a character. Yeah. As like an Oxford educated.

You know, it was just, the whole thing was just an idea to, you know, it was just, you know, just go on there really posh and really emphasize that. To highlight the problems of the group of the class. Yeah. Yes, I was here to highlight lad culture and the problems with it. And you all fell for it. But unfortunately I was emotionally destroyed by that point. Yeah. Yeah, and I, that was the thing, because I was looking back at that interview,

and you emotionally destroyed really nails it. You look like a- USAA knows dynamic duos can save the day, like superheroes and sidekicks or auto and home insurance. With USAA, you can bundle your auto and home and save up to 10%. Tap the banner to learn more and get a quote at USAA.com slash bundle. Restrictions apply. human being who was suffering, deeply suffering. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I was. I was suicidal. And,

you know, I was, I didn't realize it then, but I was also right in the grips of addiction. A lot of lads out there will go through a similar thing in life where, you know, they play with drinking drugs on a social, on a social playing field, you know, on a social landscape, you know, at weekends and stuff like that. And then when things get a little bit tricky for them in life, or they're stressed, it starts off with, you know, heavy week at work, I need to get smashed. Yeah. Heavy week at work, you know, when the misses are doing my head and I need to get smashed. When you start leaning towards like cocaine especially as a way to cope with life,

when big shit happens to you, your coping mechanism destroys you. I mean, it was the first time I locked myself away and drank and used. And it really wasn't the right time for me to be on TV, but I wanted to stem, you know, the onslaught from the media. And that's such a profound point because I think as blokes, particularly the type of background that we're from, where, you know, you're taught, you know, you've got to... And look, there's also something to be said. You've just got to crack on, keep going. I believe in that.

But also that culture where it goes, well, you go out, you get hammered, you know. Forget about it. Yeah, forget about it, mate. Just have a few beers, you'll be all right. Yeah. Eventually, if you keep doing that, it will ruin you. It will wreck you. Yeah, it did. It did.

It's, yeah, it's scary. The power that they have over people in the industry, now and I know for a fact that majority of comedians that are out there, they can't express themselves fully in the fear of, you know, to me, you know, when you look at fame and following and, you know, notoriety and, you know, when you start making your way up, you want to grab hold of it, you know, so hard to get. It's so hard to get anywhere in the industry and you want to grab hold of it. And the way that they can just go and snatch it from you is terrifying. It is. How did you know you had a problem?

because, you know, we've all had a big sesh. We've all had a, you know, we've gone out a bit too much. There's also been times where we've over-indulged for a prolonged period of time. But how did you know that this was a real problem? Well, I didn't for up until probably about a year and a half ago. I was still sort of battling with the idea that, you know, I deserved it and it was just the way I coped with life. But I realized I had a problem when I tried to stop.

and look I couldn't see that it was destroying things at home for me because in this industry that we work in a lot of people love a drink and everything else and I used to use that as a bit of an excuse if I was doing a show I'd be out and doing it and it took me away from my family and then the come downs and the hangovers were disastrous for having a young family two little baby girls, I've got two little beautiful girls

and a northern wife which don't put up with no shit You know what I mean? So it was the calm downs and the hangovers were hell. You know, I'll just be handing the kids' iPads and, you know, and it caused a lot of friction with me and me and the wife. We only recently got married last year and shortly after that. We broke up because I was just losing my mind, you know, going out on heavy sessions, coming back and she was arguing and saying,

look at you, you know, why are you still doing this? And I was like, why are you ruining my fucking fun? Nearly 40 years old still on it. And I thought, right, I've got to stop. And then try to stop and realize that. that I couldn't cope with life without a fuck you button. You know, I needed a button to, you know, everything was too much for me, you know,

the guilt and shame of the past or, you know, dealing with whatever life was thrown at me in the stress, I had no other way of, I hadn't worked out other ways to cope with life. So I kept pressing the button, even though I said I was going to stop and I didn't want to. And then it dawned to me, I'm an addict.

You know, I'd become addicted to that. And what were the triggers for you? What was a moment that you went, you know what, screw this, I'm off, I'm off on a session, I'm off to get wrecked. My triggers could be anything from, it's the same as all the other lads out there that are in the midst of it, could be anything from a bank holiday weekend. Yeah. You know, the sun being out.

You know what I mean? It's just like, the sun would be out. Life is tough, the sun is out. Yeah, yeah, you know, a bit of a stressful week. But to be honest with you, I could rarely drink, you know, I could go out and drink, depending on the company and not get on anything else. else, but rarely, you know, I'd get four or five drinks in and I'd be like, let's just go fucking mental. What I realize now through all the work I've done on my sobriety and my

podcast and all that is that the pure escapism is what I was addicted to, the oblivion, right? Like, I just, I could never cope with being myself. And I think that's part of the reason why I've spent my whole working career creating characters, Jim and Steve, Kid Frankie, all of these different characters and losing myself in that is sitting with myself and being with myself for too long became really awkward. And normally towards the end of the week, I was waiting for an excuse, trying to cause an argument or some just to get out, get to the pub and seek oblivion. And how did you get through it?

How did you overcome it? Well, firstly, like anyone that's been sober or through a program or anything like that, I had to go away, take myself away to like a rehab. But, I mean, I had to hit a rock bottom first. I'd had many. You know, after my father had passed away, I considered suicide one evening and luckily spoke to the Samaritans.

I still didn't even think I had a problem because I was on the drugs and everything. And it was weird because I'd broken up with my misses then and moved into my drug dealer's house, which I thought was a good idea at the time. Convenient, yeah. He had a spare room and drugs.

But he'd just got brand new white carpet. Business was good, obviously. He had a brand new white carpet. And I laugh about it, but I was thinking about cutting my wrist wrists and the and I was like I don't want to fuck his carpet up and that's why that's that was like that stopped me for a while and then I was like thinking of other ways and then I was like you're thinking about committing suicide mate you're fucked

something's wrong with you so I couldn't speak to me mom couldn't speak to you know I broke up with my missis weren't going to tell my mates and rang the Samaritans and that was the first time that I realized my mental health was screwed but I and I bounced up from there but still can't associate it with the drinking drugs but my wife had to have had enough of it and we were away in Marbeah at a film premiere and I just, we'd had a massive fallout the day before and we were going to Marlbaia

and she said just don't drink when we're there and don't do drugs. I was like, look, I won't do drugs, but I've got to drink. We're in Marbea. And then once I started drinking, the other thing happened, she flew back and she was like,

don't, just don't come home, you know? And then I was like, what about the kids? You know, but I mean, I stayed there for days like, bearing my head in the sand, drinking and whatever. And then by the time I got back, my life you know

I couldn't go home and then I suddenly I was sobering up going who the fuck is this guy what like what is it and that was my rock bottom I had to save the one the only thing that means the world

to me which was my family so I took myself away and then day by day by day just didn't drink and didn't use and really focused on identifying triggers and the big change for me

and anyone out there that's struggling I think is and this is why I'm so deep into mindset now which is the key and it's helped me so much with everything is realizing the changing point for me is realizing that the voice in our head isn't us so the thoughts in our head that we don't have to follow the thoughts in our head so when i'd be like i need to drink or i'm missing out or that's too stressful i can't handle it i'd be like who is that because that ain't me yeah you know and i could decide whether or not and i could see it as a trigger and then working on on that narrative and then i

realized that in order to overcome the voice, I had to build mental, mental resilience. So I started boxing and, you know, tried to channel my addictive personality into positive addictions, doing the cold water dips, just anything I saw online that I saw people doing, that was hard to do, that I had to use my mental resilience to continue to do. And then the voice just became easier and easier to ignore until my life turned into sobriety. So interesting you say that, because I know about me that I have an addictive personality. I've never been addicted to like drugs or alcohol or anything like that.

And I realized that I have an addictive personality and I just have to get addicted to the right things. I remember one time a friend of mine when I was 18 took me into a casino. And I remember just he gave me this chip that was like a hundred quid or something. And I remember just looking at it in my hand thinking, this does not feel like 100 pounds. Yeah. And if I get into this, it's not going to end well. Yeah. And so I've always just made sure.

that I it's like like you say not not getting addicted to the wrong thing yeah but you're still going to be addicted to something so you just got to find the right thing to get addicted to 100% I think we're just we're with dopamine chasers you know whether it's on your phone whether it's in the gym whether it's porn gambling sex drugs whatever you know we are going to chase dopamine those little sparks so you've got picked the right and one thing that's really interesting about your story I think particularly bringing, you know, the sobriety and what happened with your comedy character together is, I imagine, particularly when you're drinking, taking drugs, you've got a lot of guilt, you've got a lot of shame, et cetera. And you're probably thinking, well, I, you know, I deserve to be cancelled. I did things wrong.

But then it's interesting to me because I think on reflection, and as I hear your story, I've never really delved that deep into it, I don't know that you did do anything wrong exactly. Do you know what I mean? It's difficult because I believe that now, I believe now that some of the stuff I did was irresponsible, you know, with a big platform, right? Like what? I think like, you know, some of the jokes, some of the vines I did, although I still find, it's such a conundrum because I still find them funny. Yeah. You know, like, I'll give you an example. One of the, one of the vines I did while I was, obviously, it's an actress, you know, someone else that's in the industry and I'm like, I'm pretending.

But as dapper, I walk up with the fine. I'm like, all right, sweet. Can I smell your fanny? And she's like, no, you can't? I'm like, well, it must be your fucking feet then. It's just a gag, right? So I'd always just try and find them gags, those written gags, and then put them in, throw away. But then when you've got millions of followers, this is the part, when you've got millions of followers,

and there's a lot of lads out there emulating what you do, you know, now that I've got daughters, I look at it and like, what, do I really want lads walking around with their phones, you know, because people are stupid, right? So I'm always split. I half believe anything goes in comedy as long as there's not malice. But then I also believe that if you've got a big following, you've got a responsibility to put the correct message out. So I'm stuck. But where I'm at now through my sobriety is I know for a fact that there was no malice involved in the rape joke and the rape comment.

And the level of cancellation and the hatchet job I'm at peace with. Whereas over the last, like I say, up until about a year ago, over the last nine years, I beat myself up about it. I couldn't live with myself. You know, what I'd put myself through, what I'd lost, what could have been. and that's why I hid in oblivion, do you know what I mean? So it's a tricky one, but sobriety has given me the foresight to sort of look at it and go, well, you wouldn't be here talking about it unless, you know, you've got a great story.

You made it to trigonometry. Yeah, do you know what I mean? So anyone out there, rape jokes. But do you think part of the problem as well is those, that type of humour you'd hear on the building site? Those are the type of, well, like, I used to work in a working man's club in South London. That's why when I left school That's what I did when I wasn't at uni

Yeah And I see I hear that And that is just lads that I grew up with That is the type of humour that we had And we would see no malice in it Because it was part of our culture Like when someone comes in You know he was a mate or whatever else

You would rip him You would take the piss, you'd be harsh That's how we are That's how we were brought up That's how you express love or whatever else and other people would see it who are not from that culture who are from a middle class

and they'd be offended like well why are you taking the piss out of this why are you taking the piss out of that that's cool such a good point and we go well it's not because I think you're anything less because you get your teeth done or whatever else

but that's just what we do yeah and that's the moral dilemma that I face because and I made mistakes you know because if you imagine I had five million followers across I mean and I'm just talking back in 10 years ago. So as currency goes, that's like, you know, that's like your

KSIs now. But I had five million followers over here, right? And then I had 60,000 people that signed a petition over here and a handful of journalists and a load of people that are never going to come to a comedy gig that are never going to watch my TV show that canceling me. And I turn my back on the five million and said, sorry. I'm sorry, actually. You're right. You lot are right. I'm very sorry. These lot and me and this, this lot, and all these lads that didn't have someone out there that were, you know, communicating.

They all felt let down and they were vocal about that. Did your audience have a go for apologising? They were upset about that, yeah, because for years after that, and honestly, I mean three or four years, every time I posted a video, it was rape, rapist, pro-rape, rape, misogynist, sexist. And then my actual audience, Snowflake, pussy,

you're debt you know you're under you know whatever you know has been you should never have apologised turtle neck wanker so I was just like I was just that one is hard to look at in the end I had to I had to I had to go with it and take the piss out of myself yeah and admit and hold my hands up and be like yeah I was beating up man yeah beating up yeah it's and it's also as well the regret yeah and I think that we're not kind to ourselves Because we don't talk about the physical reaction that we get from things like cancellation, from anxiety.

When I get anxious or I get, you know, I have a, you know, every day of my life is basically me doing everything I can because I've got, I can go to depression, I can go to addiction, I can, that's in me. I know that. And every day I work, so that beast that on the shoulder is where it is. But we forget that when we feel anxiety or depression, it's not just mental. It hits your body. Yeah, it can kill you, it can damage you. Yeah, and your body reacts, and you're thinking to yourself, why is my body reacting like this in a physical way?

So you're looking back at yourself going, or why didn't I do this or why didn't I do that? But your body was also doing stuff that you were probably thinking to yourself, what's happening? I was, yeah, I got PTSD from it. I must have because even when tiny little things kick off, like I said to you before we started, I'm terrified of using my Twitter. When tiny little things kick off or trolls kick off and stuff like that, I do get that anxiety straight away.

And I try to be as creatively free as I can. And I admire people that just don't give a shit. But we didn't have Ricky Jervais back then saying, I'll never apologise for a joke. And we didn't have, you know, your Stephen Fry. We didn't have all these people going, you know, I don't give offence. You take it.

all of these great voices that were talking about people, you know, at the time it happened, I believed I'd been a terrible person and I'd been correctly punished for it. You know, it wasn't until I stopped taking drugs and drinking. No, I realized, well, fuck me, you lot done a number. And I'm curious what you make of it because one of the things, you know, I think like loyalty, especially to people who've benefited from your success or people who, sorry, loyalty to people that have supported you or have helped you in some way is really important, right? And I imagine it would have been very difficult to have your manager drop you right in the middle of all of this instead of like fighting it with you in some way or guiding you through it.

I imagine that would have been difficult as well because you don't have anyone in your corner anymore. Yeah, because I was kind of plucked out of, you know, I was a comedian, but also I had my own business and I was working. And, you know, what was your business in then? I was a, I had an estate agency. So, you know, I was doing comedy. I went away and done comedy and come back for a bit of money. And, you know, I didn't think comedy was going to work for me. So I was building a business.

And, you know, this management company had come gone and look at your numbers, you know, and plucked me out of that life and sort of said, look, come with us. We're going to do all of these personal appearances. So I started making loads of money going to nightclubs and meeting the fans and that. Then I was doing tours. Then they got me a TV show and that. So, you know, I'd left. my old life behind and my old friends really and um you know and i was like you know i was like making

money and you know and then it was like boom yeah thanks but fuck off a little bit and it was yeah it was very embarrassing but also yeah quite lonely but yeah i didn't really the only thing i knew to do back then was escape so yeah no totally and you mentioned friends that's something i was going to ask you about sobriety as well because i imagine that when you are someone who drinks a lot and takes drugs a lot, you're surrounded by other people who do the same. And that, I imagine, makes it harder to change because you're not having to just let go of the habit, you're having to go let go of a whole social environment that you've created for yourself. Yeah, I think it's one of the main reasons why people struggle to get sober and to overcome

addiction, because unfortunately our culture, our culture looks, or us as a people, we look at addiction as somebody that wakes up and leans for a bottle of vodka that's on a park bench. You know, that's what we think addiction looks like. But to me, I didn't drink Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday. I was recovering. And then Thursday, Friday, I was drinking. And then Saturday I was on the packet, right? And then I was fucked again.

But for the last 20 years, I was either drunk or hung over. And so I learned very quickly that our bodies, our minds, when we're not at base level, when we're consuming drinking drugs and we're just underneath, our minds are going, what's the fucking problem? So you focus on everything else, you know, the misses is doing my head in, this is doing my head in, and it turns you quite evil.

But what I found with my friends is, is that, you know, if you're saying to them that you're an addict and you've got a problem, but they're doing exactly the same as you, if not worse, then it's like you're almost calling them an addict and you're holding a mirror up to him.

My friends don't like a mirror held up to him unless it's covered in cocaine. Trust me. They were like, what do you mean? You've got a problem, mate. You're a fucking lightweight. Do you know what I mean? And we're all growing up, all got families, all got young kids.

And then especially if you express why, you know, it throwed shade on them. So I lost a, I'd say lost. They're still there if I want to talk to them. But they don't ring me because the only thing we had in common was drinking and doing drugs. So it's hard. It is hard. You mourn your old life. When you truly accept that you can no longer drink and do drugs, you're mourning your old life.

Yeah. And that is such a profound point, Dan. I remember when, like, because I was, I used booze, because deep down, I'm quite a shy person, I'm quite sensitive, I'm not, so I developed this kind of, you know, taking the piss, quitwitted, whatever else, in order to cover it. And the reason I started smoking is, because back then you could smoke in pubs, is that if the conversation got awkward, you put a fag in your mouth

and then, well, that's it, you start smoking. The reason I started drinking was the same. It was a way to cope with anxiety. And then it gave me confidence. confidence so I could be a bit more Jack the lad, taking the piss, banter, banter, banter, banter. The moment I took those comfort blankets away, all that was left was Francis. And then suddenly I realized, oh, I've got a whole load of stuff that I need to deal with, which is a lifetime of work, let's be honest.

But I always remember telling one of my mates, so I went to him, Pete, you know, I've given up a drink, mate. I can't do it. It's, it's destroying my life. and I remember him saying to me after a while he goes you know some in France since you've given up the booze mate you're not as much fun I've had that yeah that that was like

I've had that that was right there that was a little knife and I was like it is hard and it's what pulled me back in last time because I had a stint of sobriety before you know but I'd done it for my misses I was like you know okay I ain't got a problem I'll stop

and then Christmas was coming my mates were like come on And I was like, all right, I'll just go back to the occasional piss up. And like it accelerated so fast. But I'd advise, I think to all men out there, one of the biggest problems that we've got, especially with like male suicide and men's mental health and stuff like that, is the fact that men, we don't know who we are because we've got so many different hats that we've got to wear, right? With dads or we're workers, you know, we've got to work, we've got to earn. Or we're partners, husbands.

But who are you, right? Because when you're not that and you're with your mates and you're drinking, but who are you? And that's sobriety to me was like, right, so I can't escape this shit, right? I've got a fucking, so the first part of sobriety, you're like, oh shit, I did that, I did that, I did that, I did that. And normally, if anything would pop up, you know, like I drank at my wedding and it breaks my, it's one of my biggest regrets now because there's a certain part of my wedding that I can't remember and I cause a lot of problems.

And when I started thinking about that at the beginning of my sobriety, I desperately wanted to fucking escape them feelings. but then I sat with it and I got through it and I understood it and I looked back at the reasons why and then other things started popping up I remember when you done that remember when you done that and slowly the first fucking four or five or six months was it was like oh my God I hate myself and I can't escape it but through all the work that you do you slowly start putting it all the bed and then everything sort of calms down

and you sort of go oh man so I'm this guy that actually overcome that and I've sorted that out and you start getting an idea of who you are. And I just recommend it to men so much. Just stop doing whatever you do to escape being yourself to find out who you are. And you talk about the work. What do you mean by the work, Dan? So the work is managing, managing my thoughts, not escaping negative thoughts, you know, dealing with them. And also not, so the work to me in life in general, first of all, is building my mental resilience, right? So you saw that I boxed the other day. Boxing for me is one of the best ways to do it because one,

Okay, so you knock out 50-year-old. So that makes you feel good. You know what I mean? I'm not ages. Anyone can have it. Equal. That's what I learned from getting cancelled. Everyone is equal, so I'll smash anyone up.

No, but box. So it's all about doing things. It's nice and simple. It's all about doing things that I don't want to do for long-term graphication instead of short-term. It's like the opposite of drugs. Yeah. So drugs is instantly happy, instantly achieve my goal.

And I had to rewire my mind. So put yourself in positions that I don't want to be in. So first of all, I box at 5.30 in the morning. So I have to get up at 4.30. So the first, every single day, six days a week. So I get up 4.30 in the morning. That's the first thing. I don't want to do it.

And I've overcome that. And in boxing, the training is horrible. It's grueling. And that's bad. But what's even worse is the sparring three times a week. So, you know, you've got a fight. So every time you step through the ropes, you're doing something that your mind is telling you not to do. And to me, that were constantly overcoming fear and all of that stuff makes not drinking and not taking drugs and not being a twat, a piece of piss.

You know what I mean? And also, it tells me that the actual real me is strong. Yeah. Is really strong, you know. And my mind, and now, my negative thought loops, like take jealousy, for instance, or any other things. things that pop into us as men's minds and can consume us and turn into, turn into negative behaviour, I can see it now. Like, whereas before, the thought became the feeling. But now the thought doesn't become the feeling. The thought, as it's trying to turn into the feeling,

gets taken and thrown away. And it just feels powerful. So interesting what you said about playing long-term games, because this is the thing I always say to the young guys who work here. It's like, all life is is one big marshmallow test. You know that the marshmallow test is the strongest predictor. I mean, people keep saying it's been debunked and whatever, but it is actually just like in reality objectively true, whether that particular experiment was well designed or not. But basically, the strongest predictor with kids of lifetime success is this.

If you give a kid a marshmallow and you say, you can have it now, in which case that's all you're getting, or if you hold onto this for like 30 seconds or, a minute or five minutes or whatever that time is, I'll give you a second marshmallow. The kids that will wait for the second marshmallow, they're going to be successful. And the ones that have it right then and then, they're not going to be as successful. And that's all life is. If you play short-term games, whether it's drugs, whether it's whatever, you're going to get

short-term results. You're going to get the dopamine hit right now. But it's not the same as getting the dopamine hit of building a great body or a great business or whatever is that you're actually going to take time to do. the satisfaction of taking the time to bear the discomfort for a year, two years, five, ten years, whatever. The payoff then is so different, is so much bigger. Yeah, and just from hearing that test for the first time, what I took from that as well is the period of time where the child has got to wait, even anticipating the weight and they have to sit with themselves and their thoughts is the key, you know?

If you're confident enough to be able to sit with your thoughts and hold back for the greater good, then yeah. And through sobriety and all of this stuff, it sent me down a road where I'm like, well, I really want to find out, I really want to work out what else is negative, you know. So I started looking into like the ego, you know, and how I was responding to, you know, and I just went on this. And I advise it to any men out there. Just sit with yourself without escaping and try and work out what the problem is.

And the challenges as well, I think it's even more difficult now. because of social media, because we're surrounded by things that give instant gratification and turn us into dopamine monsters, dopamine things. Yeah, yeah. I mean, for me as well, like, when you, I mean, you guys will know this as well. When you, you know, do I want to create great content, like, thought-provoking content, or do I want likes? You know what I mean?

Because I went down the phase of really hijacking, like, news stories and then coming up with, you know, I went through a little phase where, like, you know, all the trans-gender. stuff and da-da-da-da and I was like yeah we'd never talk about you know but you know but you got to keep the women audience happy yeah yeah yeah yeah the female audience wants their trans episode yeah every day it's you know but again like the ego I know what you mean yeah the ego can send you on roots you know but when you're passionate we're truly passionate about something it's just the content is so much better yeah I mean so I'm working I'm still working all of this stuff out but it's great you got to be a

authentic to what you truly believe. Exactly. Exactly. Otherwise, and the reason, you know what, it's not true from a pure success point of view because like you say, if you tap into whatever is hot right this second, then you do your thing about that, it's going to get the likes, it's going to get the shares, it's going to get the views. And that's true in all sorts of other areas of life. The problem is you never truly feel happy or successful with that success because it's not

been earned in a way that's authentic to you. So it's not you that's successful. It's this fake persona you've created. That's exactly it. And also, we can sometimes jump out it so quickly that we express other people's views that we know are popular on those subjects. And that's something that I'm desperately trying to veer away from because I truly believe, I don't see my followers as followers.

I see my followers like a follower, like a one person, like my audience is one person that will go, hold on a second. Do you really think that or is it popular? Yeah. And I don't want to cheat that person. And also, if I'm going to divide opinion or be disliked, I want to fucking, I don't want to do what I did before and shit myself. I want to hold on to it and go, no, I fucking mean that.

Yeah. And if you don't like it, then fuck off. Yeah. You know, which is a tough one for me to get to. And it only comes through authenticity. It does. Have you done therapy, Dan? Have you?

Yeah, a lot. Yeah. I actually started back in the day with anger management therapy, but it pissed me off. Honestly. That is so weird. Honestly, the guy, you'd think that they'd teach the fucking, the, the, the, the, the, the psychologist or whatever to not be so fucking annoying when it's like anger management. I can see why you need an anger management.

Yeah, that was years ago though. Again, before I thought I had a problem. Yeah. You know, and I can remember he asked me, he said to me, you know, do, do drugs? And I was like, yeah, I'd do a bit of cocaine. And he come up with this analogy where he was like, and he was like, and he was like, and he was like, oh, I was at the Henley Regatta. And I was, I was sat with a bowl, with a cereal bowl of cocaine, just spooning it into

my nose and I was like, shut the fuck up. There's no way, one, you'd be able to afford all of that cocaine and no one would, you know, and then he just said he threw it in the river and I was like, oh my God, and he lost me. Do you know what I mean? So I couldn't connect with him. You don't treat cocaine like that. No, you have a bit of respect. Yeah, exactly. At least bag it up and sell it or give it to someone. But no, but I couldn't relate to him at all. And on my last, on my second to last session of it, I didn't think I had anger management problems at the time, but I clearly did. I was coming back from a gig actually at my comedy coat. It wasn't mine then before I bought it.

You were there the other day. Yeah. I was coming back from a gig from Clapman North to Clapham South. And I got in this cab and I'd been on the Charlie and all of that stuff. And I was arguing with my friend about who was going to pay for the cab. And we didn't know, but the cab driver had taken a detour to like Battersea, right? And I suddenly realized. And this was like I had my last anger management thing on the NHS like the next day.

And I thought, where's he taken us? And then because I was my paranoid cocaine delusion. I thought maybe he's taking us to a secret place where all the taxi, drivers where they take people that don't pay the fares and all the taxi drivers are going to you know beat us up it's like a secret taxi fight club yeah so I'm going to let me out let me he pulled up at this building and got out and I had a big bag of stella's and I smashed the window and climbed out and chased him into this building and punched him and it was fucking battersy police station he'd run into so I got nicked and that's that was that was just before I was about to finish

my um I say punched him I kind of like went to hit him and the guy jumped over the thing and I got arrested and um that was not that was not. like, right, you seriously, you know, you know, I didn't even stop doing drugs then for you. You were really dedicated, mate. Yeah. That was crazy. Yeah. But listen, it's, I mean, the one thing that I'm really hearing out of this is, I know this is a weird thing to say, but this needed to happen for you to get sober and, like, you're such a different person now.

And it sounds like a much healthier and better person, too. I bet your missus feels relieved that this has all happened. Yeah. It's crazy because for 10, like we've been together 10 years. For nine years, it felt like for like eight and a half years. We didn't know if we were meant to be together because we were arguing and everything like that. And she's so happy, you know, and I'll be honest with you. It's difficult looking back, but it serves as like a, it does serve as like a bit of a, you know,

I showcased it all the last year to my audience, you know, and I've split my audience by, you know, talking about sobriety and being very open about what I thought addiction was and what it actually is and all of this stuff and the things I've done wrong and how to be a better father and all that. And it has divided my audience to a certain. Some people don't want to hear that. I built my audience on, you know, being wild. But over the last couple of weeks,

especially when we found out that she was pregnant, it was extremely emotional because, you know, she's genuine, not because she let me shag her again, obviously, but she's genuinely, for the first time, I truly believe in the last 10 years, She's genuinely happy. Like she bounces around. She's like when I first met her.

And it's hard because I look like she'd been dealing with addiction and also the roller coaster of my career while her life was on hold. But, you know, I get to do a whole pregnancy sober and become a father. And I've got two little babies. So it is beautiful. And I think you're right. It needed to happen. And it's great, really.

Yeah. Yeah. I think for someone who was as wild as you, the low had to be really, really low for you to like wake up to the reality of what was going on. So I'm really happy for you, man. It's such a great sort of circle

to complete in that way. I think it serves as a nice, there's a lot of lads struggling, man. I've got a group called Men and Their Emotions on Facebook. It's called mates, men and their emotions. Unfortunately, like it's just blown up. I say unfortunately, because it just shows how much pains on it. It's got 50,000 lads in it.

And the concept, for me was really simple because so many lads were reaching out to me, you know, that was suicidal and I just didn't feel qualified. You know, I'd looked at my fucking therapy sessions and that one there. I was like, but I created this group where lads can, they can write in there because I believe that a massive part of the problem is men need men, right? Yeah. I believe that men need men, not just like to be held accountable, to vent, you know, because we only really are used to vent in with drink and drugs or with drink or in a public. environment, you know, and through banter.

Yeah. But, you know, something that boxing gives me and this group as well is like real men going, well, hold on a second, your missus shouldn't put up with that. You know, when you hear it from another man, it's fucking different, you know, when your missus is going, why should I put up with this? When another man says she, well, in a second, that is an

amazing woman, mate. She shouldn't put up with that shit. And stuff like I had from my boxing coach the first time I tried to get sober, how are you going to feel when another man's bringing up your kids? Because I'll be honest with you, Dan, I don't think you'll be able to handle it. and you kill yourself. And I was like, cried on the way home, you know, from boxing and was like, I need to get sober. And this episode is brought to you by Netflix's remarkably bright creatures.

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Chipp in and it's a bit like Jeremy Kyle You know, you watch Jeremy Kyle, you don't feel so shit about yourself You know what I mean? It's a bit like that You know even if you're just watching you know other people are going through it You know men we need friendship We need it and as you get older you know, everybody goes their separate ways and they have their careers and their families.

But I think that's something that men really need. We really need other men and we need that bonding experience where we can have a chat, where we can vent. Because one of the things I find worrying about male emotion is, and I look at myself in this, is that it's really only anger.

And then when everything gets too much with me, it's tears. It just goes, and that's not a healthy way to be. Yeah, I think when you see a man lashing out and being aggressive, he's crying. Yeah. You know what I mean? He hasn't been taught how to cry. Like, I used to look at all this well-being stuff, you know.

And when people used to say, I used to hate it, when people, I used to think it was an upper-class thing. When people would say that they're going to, I'm finding myself. I'm going to find. I'm like, what the fuck do you mean? You're right there. But the truth is, is men, especially if they haven't had a father figure, which a lot of us haven't. But men are expected, you know, stiff up a lip, man up, don't worry, go and graft, have a beer, you know, you'll be

all right, as long as you're making money, as long as you're making money and you're shagging or whatever, you'll be all right. They don't know how to express themselves at all. And the key to it is talking, right? And through my sobriety, I haven't been able to shut up about, you know, you see my podcast, I mean, I'm crying on my podcast all the time. You know, when I go back to stuff that I've done wrong personally myself, I'm really trying honing on that emotion and I let it out and when you see men like smashing things up or going wild or fighting, that's them crying but they haven't learned how to cry, you know what I mean? Yeah, and it's because we only have access. It's not, if you think about it like a piano and your emotions are all the keys,

we only have access to a couple of keys. Yeah. So if you've only can play one key, you're going to play one key really hard, which is the anger, the rage, the lashing out. Yeah. Big one for me has been trolls, trolls really used to, I don't know why, they used to, and I'm reading this book at a moment called ego is the enemy. And I'm learning so much about how I view myself, you know, like, I thought I just looked at myself as a creative comedian, you know, and I come up with these characters and the comedy and I'd think, oh, you're a little bit of a comedy genius. But it turns out that actually, through the followers and, you know, the money and the whatever, I kind of fell into this weird thing of thinking, no, I'm actually really special. So when a troll would say, you know, the money, and the,

say something to me, I'll be like, how dare you? You know, how dare they? Now that I'm working on my ego, just realizing, look, you're just a fucking normal comedian that's a little bit more creative, that's had a couple of breaks, that grafts hard. I can be like, well, yeah, whatever you're saying, mate, it's like, whatever. It might be, you know, so I'm working

on that, and I think for us, men, that's a massive part of mental health problems, because we all have this, like, idea in our minds that we are supposed to be this, and if we're not that, then we're not enough, do you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, I think it's really important, especially in the modern world where I think,

I mean, this is bluntly put, but I do think it's true. There's a lot of women telling men how they're supposed to be. And I'm like, with all possible respect, you don't know what you're talking about. Yeah, yeah. You know, so in that world, I think it's increasingly important for guys to be talking,

for to be talking to each other. Yeah. And also for male role models. Because, and you see this with like the Andrew Tates of the world and whatever, you're going, I don't think that. that's a good role model for men at all. But I also think the fact he's a symptom of the problem.

He's not the, people, like all these journalists want to make it out like Andrew Tate is the problem. Andrew Tate is not the problem. It's the fact that men would listen to someone like Andrew Tate that's telling you what the problem is. And that means these men do not have good role models in their lives who can go, no, no, this is actually how you do this. Yeah, Andrew Tate is such a conundrum, isn't it? because, you know, me and my wife, I know Andrew, actually. I've met him. I met him in a really strange way back in the day because on Twitter we had a bit of a

conflict because he was talking about, you know, mental health not being a real thing and depression and that. And I actually quoted one of his tweets and started going in on him and then clicked on his profile. This was before he was massive. I had more followers than him at the time. And I clicked on his profile and then saw that he was like, a fucking kickboxing champion. And I was like, all right, mate, let's wind it in.

And then I bumped into him randomly. at an event, him and his brother walking down. And he was like, remember me? And I was like, and they both went, ah. So he had like a laugh and a joke with me. And in person, I thought he was great. But my wife, obviously, she's very much like, I don't like his stuff and da-da-da-da-da-da.

And I'm like, but he speaks some sense, right? That is the problem because mixed in with everything that, whatever he does and all of that, there's messages in what he says that men resonate with because there's no one else talking about it. That's my point. And the only other thing that we get to see, And I swear to God, I've always been terrified of even talking about how narcissistic women can be and how sort of how it looks, what it looks like, what the landscape of social media and the world looks like from a man.

It's like you're almost terrified to be a man. You know what I mean? And it's constant negativity. You're this. You're that. You should do this. And if you don't do this, it's, you know, you're not good enough. It's not just social media.

It's the media. It's movies. It's advertising. It's the entire kind of content space is filled with these messages of like, you're not allowed to be a man the way that a man needs to be to be actually fulfilled and happy and have purpose and meaning or whatever, which is what Andrew Tate is happening into. I have literally, while I don't like a lot of the things that he says, and I have no issue with Andrew Tate because people wouldn't be listening to Andrew Tate if there wasn't the problem in the first place. He's just fulfilling a need that's there. and if they were healthier role models and this is why Jordan Peterson became so big

because he was the first person that came along and actually said to men for like a decade oh my god yeah it's okay to be a man it's okay to be a man yeah and not just that like you do not know the joy and like the happiness I was filled with when I saw him arguing with journalists that I'd seen put me down and go hold on a second I didn't actually say that

and like saying to them sorry you you know you're angry about something. And then I watched that and I was like, oh, mate, I wish that I was articulate enough or intelligent enough to, or back then had the foresight to, to,

you know, or the patience or the confidence to say, well, actually, guys, there's no malice in anything I said. And the only people that are offended by what I said are because of the, or the way that you've twisted it and given it to them

because no one at my fucking show complained about a thing. Do you know what I mean? So, you know, hopefully there'll be more, it's difficult to, how many success? successful male men out there don't get attacked as well.

Do you know what I mean? It's very difficult to be successful. It's men and women. The moment you're successful, you get attacked. That's just how it is. Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes I've got to hold myself back because it was a lot of female journalists.

It was a lot of, you know, what I thought was toxic feminism. And, you know, like I handled the way that I was, you know, and I went on like a PR thing for a little while as well where I'd go and sit down and do interviews with a lot of journalists and be like, yeah, I get it, you know, I want to learn more. You know, I even sat and said, I want to learn more about sexism.

I want to learn more about this culture you're talking about. And then they would simply go, dapper thinks we should educate him not to rape and stuff like that. And then I just thought, after that, I just thought, do you know what? Yeah. Fuck off then. And, you know, it's very hard.

You know what? A lot of women are fed up of the shit as well. I say this all the time. Like, my wife hates all this stuff. She's completely not into any of this. She doesn't, she's just interested in, you know, being a mother and doing the stuff that she does within her own life and whatever. But she see, everyone sees this.

And a lot of women see the same toxic narratives being pushed because women want men too. Women want men to be men too. Yeah. But what you have is a small sliver of the kind of content creating class who are pushing these messages because it fits with their fucking narrative about, you know, toxic masculinity or whatever, which is why it's really great to hear. journey from what happened to where you are now.

I'm just really happy for you, man. It's awesome. I really love it. And it's been great having it on the show. As you know, the last question we always ask is, what's the one thing that we're not talking about as a society that we should be? Before we go to our locals and ask you a bunch of questions from our supporters.

Why? I think the fact that mental health and well-being isn't implemented into our children at school. I think that's something that through my struggles because I always knew that it wasn't good to drink and it wasn't good to do drugs but I never really knew why and also I've got a toolbox now of things that I use

very much like yourself if I'm having a bad day or if I can see my mind is going in the wrong direction but that's a toolbox that I've had to put together and create after years and years of self-abreacted abuse and trauma and, you know, really that toolbox has been created halfway through my life, you know, luckily before my, you know, start and pass on to my kids.

So I think that we need to talk more about creating them toolbox for kids while they're at school. Well, here's something I might disagree with you on actually, because my worry with what's happening in schools is, I mean, they're being taught all kinds of crazy shit right now. And I worry that mental health becomes this thing about how there's 53 genders and whatever. I actually think you hit the nail on the head when you said, it on to your kids. Yeah, maybe that's better.

I think ultimately, this is shit that parents are going to have to teach their kids. Yeah. I think there's actually a third way, like a mate of mine who's a teacher who's implemented stoicism to teaching to primary school kids, which is, I think, a really good way of doing it,

which is teaching you, you know, how to be stoic, how to not let your emotions take you away. Yeah. It's just my worry with the educational system is all of this gets perverted, corrupted, and it ends up being, you know. That's all so true.

That is why. So the people that are, look, ultimately, the best thing that I think you can do for your kids is teach them yourself. Yeah. The things that you have learned and tell them the stories of your own life and really be honest about it because that will grab them. I know that I've had, you know, people in my family do that with me. Yeah. And that's been how I've learned a lot of stuff. But I had to discover a lot of stuff for myself.

And maybe that's also part of the journey, man. Yeah, it's a tough one because you're right. Yeah. But yeah, you're right. You're right. But generally people learning more about the toolbox of how to manage your emotions and all that. Yeah, I think just, yeah, having them conversations with your children, definitely. You know, now that you've said that, the more you think about it,

because my parents, my parents taught me about right and wrong. Yeah. But didn't teach me about how to deal with my emotions. Yeah. Yeah. But also they were a product of their time. Yeah, exactly. People didn't talk about it back then.

People didn't have emotions back then, man. Yeah. It was 1960s. It was 1960s. Yeah, it's mostly meant. Yeah, exactly. So, and I think, you know, sometimes, you know, I'm a guilty of this where we go, I'll put my parents, didn't teach me this, didn't teach me that.

And it was like, but they're a product of their time. Yeah, they didn't know what they didn't. Yeah, they didn't know exactly what they didn't know. We're a product of our time and so on and so forth. So a big part of this is also forgiveness. Forgiving the people who have wronged you, forgiving the people who, when you were brought up, made mistakes, made errors, made errors, they were human beings as well, and they did their best.

Yeah, I certainly don't agree with, you know, I think the Americans are big for it, you know, when it's, you know, they do their, they do their therapy, and it's all their parents for, you know, it can't, it's, you know, it's, yeah. It's all right, A team. When you get to 41 and you're blaming mum and dad, it's a little bit. Yeah, I will say this, I don't think it's possible to be truly happy until you've forgiven your parents and become grateful to them. Yeah, 100%.

And I think one thing I definitely finish this conversation on is that one of the biggest causes of addiction and mental health problems, especially self-loving and stuff like that, is down to what our narrative is about ourselves, how we feel about ourselves. And a massive, massive part is down to the deals that you make with yourself. You know, if I go to my boxing gym and my trainer isn't there and that happens a couple of times, I think that guy's a knobbed. I don't want to be around him. And it's the same for ourselves. If we say, I want to get fit, I want to stop drinking, I want to do it. And you stop keeping the deals with yourself. The narrative is that you're, you're worthless.

So it's like keeping them deals. Beautiful. Head on over to locals where we ask them your questions. Do you believe that the current advocates of wokeness will be able to retain their credibility after its inevitable demise? And do they personally feel capable? Do you personally feel capable of forgiving them?