TRIGGERnometry - Ben Bradley MP: What is the Conservative Answer to the Culture War?

Episode Date: February 10, 2021

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Hello and welcome to Trigonometry. I'm Francis Foster. I'm Constantine Kisson. And this is a show for you if you want honest conversations with fascinating people. We're delighted to say that joining us today is the Member of Parliament for Mansfield, Ben Bradley MP. Welcome to Trigonometry. Hi, how you doing? It's good to have you on the show, man. We're excited. As we were just talking before we started, we don't ever have serving politicians on the show. We've made one or two exceptions in the past for people that we thought actually would speak their mind and be direct and honest about stuff. So hopefully we can get you cancelled in the process of this interview.

Plenty of people have tried. I'm just pleased to be described as fascinating. I'm happy with that. I can go now. Yeah. Well, listen, for anyone who doesn't know you and doesn't know who you are and what your background is, you became the first conservative MP for Mansfield since 1885, right? You are quite a lot younger than both Francis and I.

So you're quite remarkable in a few different ways. You've done all sorts of jobs in your parts. Just tell everybody a little bit about who are you, how are you where you are? What is the journey that brings you to where you are now, which is sitting here talking to us? Yeah, sure. It was almost an accident, to be honest. We, as you say, you know, Mansell's never had a Conservative MP. It's liberal and before Labour in the early 1920s.

So it's a bit of a shift politically. It was a proper kind of hardcore Labour coal. field territory. And personally, I would always want to be a PE teacher, actually. I went to a uni to be a PE teacher and in the end, kind of changed my mind and dropped out and worked as a landscape gardener. I worked at Aldi and Frankie and Benny's and other places and decided in the end to go back and do something that wouldn't railroad me down a particular route, something kind of broad at uni and pick politics, which very effectively railroaded me down a particular route. And then actually fell out with my council about the bins. It got me really good.

rumpy. You do look like the kind of guy who's there on the Tuesday morning. Take my biz! Absolutely. That was me at the age of like 21 and ends up doing this petition around getting all the little old ladies on where estate riled up about the bins and decided to stand for council and never look back really. Just kind of fell in love with it.

I mean, what a story, Ben, it's all started with the bins. I mean, that's what people get passionate about. When people talk about local council and local politics, politics. It's inevitably the bins. But you're in the Conservative Party now. The Conservative Party had this massive win at the general election. And you saw seats like yours turn away from Labour. Why do you think that is? It's been going on for a long time. The shift, if you look at since 1997, Mansfield was an 18,000 Labour majority then. It came down to 11, 8, 6, 5 and went conservative in 2017. And then this time, you know, I had a thousand majority then. It's

16 and a half now. So it's a big old shift. And it's been happening, as I say, since then. So if you look at not just Corbyn, not just Brexit, those things kind of accelerated it. But actually, it's the cultural shift, you know, for all the history of Labor voting, very unionized industries, really, everybody voted Labor. They've always been kind of small sea conservative when it comes to culture and values. You know, and having broken that labor connection, you know, seen Jeremy Corbyn and what he was about and didn't fancy it. There's maybe more of a willingness to look elsewhere and kind of figure out what those values are. And really, you know, the stuff that we talked about in 2019 in particular, you know,

tough on law and order, a bit more kind of patriotic, a bit more, you know, leveling up and support in those poor communities was right up their street. Do you think that you and others in the red wall seats in the red wall area, Do you think that you have shattered that tribal allegiance that people in those areas used to have for labour where, you know, my dad voted labor, my granddad voted labor, that sort of thing? Do you think that's a permanent rupture? Or do you think you've got this tiny window? And as Boris Johnson said, you have to now prove to people that the vote that they lent you was worth lending to you. I think the latter certainly broken the allegiance, right?

because, I mean, you heard, I heard in 2017, even more so in 19, you know, my granddad would turn in his grave if he knew I was going to vote Tory. But they did and kind of, you know, sucked it up and closed their eyes and marked the cross kind of thing. And we do have to show it. There's no sense to me at the minute that Kirstama or Labour have won anybody back over from that perspective. But obviously, you know, COVID's really challenging for many reasons. People are pretty depressed largely. So no huge swell of support for the government either.

and we do need to show over the next three years that we're going to do something worthwhile with this Parliament and make it worth it, particularly that investment in those communities and wanting to see something that tangibly makes things better where they live. So there's a big challenge and, you know, if we prove the point, then they'll stick with us. If not, it will be a matter of time before, you know, Labor figure out what they're doing and offer them an alternative.

Don't you think we're in this quite weird time, Ben, where conservatives represent the working class better than Labor and then Labour have become the party of the middle-class liberal elite? It's a big shift, isn't it? And breaks all the stereotypes. I think, you know, they've always been that kind of academic Islington socialists in the Labour Party. And it's always been a bit of an uncomfortable mismatch, certainly for the last 20-odd years, between them and, you know, the working class kind of core vote.

But actually, we saw all the way through Brexit and more recently some of the cultural discussion about that disconnect between the two. and they just cannot rub together in those big kind of statement, conversations, things like Brexit, where actually it's those idlington academics who not only don't agree with the kind of working class leave voters, but actually can't stand them. And that's a real problem when it comes to trying to tie together that political coalition, right? So every party has those divides, is it a kind of liberal and more kind of right-wing divide in the Conservative Party as well? but at the minute we're certainly speaking more for those communities, I think, and Brexit's

indicative of that, isn't it? Well, we weren't going to spend too much on Brexit, but you bring it up. And one of the interesting things is all three of us in this conversation voted Remain. Because we're good people. That's the running gag on the show. We're very moral people for voting. But equally, all three of us, I think, have a tremendous amount of respect for democracy and for the people who voted differently to us.

What was that like for you representing a constituency that voted differently to you in the referendum? To be honest, it's been fine. I voted remain on the basis that I think like a lot of my generation, I'd never given the EU a second thought, to be honest. I wasn't born when we went in. It's just what I've always had and hadn't particularly, to be honest, as I said before, I fell out about the bins and went back to union and what have you. I'd never really thought about politics. I wasn't interested. So it was an odd one.

I kind of just went along with what was easiest, if I'm being totally honest. I've got no quarrel with, or I didn't have a quarrel with the European Union. I think it seemed like there were problems. I don't want to be part of a federal Europe, but actually was it in the too difficult box? Was it really worth it?

And it wasn't something that was important to me, so I just kind of stuck with it. But I understood the arguments. I always have. And since we actually voted to leave, I think they've come out even more clearly. So it has not been that difficult to fall out with the EU since then, has it? And some of the things that they've done and the way that they've approached this negotiation.

So as we've gone on, you know, I've kind of just embraced it. And I think most constituents who pay attention to what I do and say have recognised that. So we've not really had a problem at all. I mean, I was firmly in the camp that I thought to remain within the EU was a good thing. We voted to leave. The vote should be respected. I thought it was the wrong decision at the time. And for many years after that, one thing that, one thing that really changed my mind

was the behaviour of the EU over the past couple of weeks with regards to the vaccines. What is your opinion on it? Yeah, sure. I think things like that just proved the point, don't they? And we saw it throughout the negotiations where there was a point

at the end of last year where they were going absolutely mad about us saying, well, if this doesn't work, we might have to break international law in order to make the Northern Ireland situation work. And they went crazy. But they're not quite happy to break international law when it comes to, you know, the Germans

bidding for vaccines behind the EU's back when they've signed up to treat. It's when it suits them, isn't it? And I think that's one of the things that really wound a lot of Leave voters up previously. I'd never really thought about it. But actually, we've seen since 2016, 2017, a lot of examples like that. And I think we're in the best possible decision now to be able to do something positive. A colleague actually described it to me in a really helpful way that I use all the time now. And you just said, look, if you're, you're, you're saying,

in the back of a car as a passenger and you're heading in a direction that you know you don't want to go, which is federal Europe, you know, handing over those powers to a big federal system, then there's only so long you can tell them to slow down or tell them to turn around before you've got to get out of the car and go your own way, you know. So from that perspective, Brexit was always inevitable. It was just the case of when, which I think is quite a neat way of explaining it, actually. Yeah, it is. Irrespective of the underlying issue with the EU, and so on, I think it would be difficult to argue that Brexit has not been a hugely divisive issue that has really polarised the country that split.

Really? Yeah. You know it is. I'm trying to do the British understatement. I'm not very good at it. But it's really, really hurt a lot of relationships, families. You know, we have this fever pitch conversation in our media now that, you know, there's a lot of animosity that has been generated. How do you think we start to bring people back together?

Because that's a real worry to me, that everything now is 11 out of 10 in terms of anger and outrage and all of that. And, you know, Brexit was clearly a big part of that. Yeah, it's really challenging, isn't it? And it seems the first example of that kind of divided discussion. But there are lots now. It seems like everything almost falls into that category. I think COVID does to some extent, you know. And I think the media and social media has a lot to answer for because it always,

ignores the grey, doesn't it? It makes better headlines to have the extreme versions and pretend that there's nothing in the middle when actually most people are in the middle. I think Brexit's like that. You know, I think most people remain or leave were able to see the other argument and able to, although they disagree, actually kind of understand what the conversation was about, but it's not those people that end up as the talking heads on the political shows, is it, and making the headlines. And, you know, COVID's kind of the same, you know, whether you're lockdown skeptic or whether you're you know, wanting to keep us locked down forever. That's always the way it's portrayed, isn't it?

You either want to kill everybody's granny or you want to lock everybody in their homes for the next whatever, and there's nothing in between when actually we're all in between. So I do think there's a huge media problem there. But I do think people are getting more and more wise to it. The challenge, I suppose, is that when it is such a polarising, angry debate, those people who are in the middle, the people who have the relatively mainstream kind of view,

just stay out of it, don't I? You don't want to get involved? if you don't want to cause an argument because it's not worth it. We're very British from that perspective. We'll just, you know, you have an argument and I'll back off. Which leaves just the very loud, angry voices out there, doesn't it?

Amplified by things like Twitter and all of that. It leaves me and France is out there, which is great for us. But Ben, I mean, it's a very good point. You know, we do tend to see the angriest people amplified on social media, et cetera, et cetera. And it seems like the most important issue aren't the ones that get disgust about because it just turns into a shouting match,

into a slanging match. One of the things that I'm very worried about, and part of the reason that I'm glad we have a conservative government is the economy and what state the economy is going to be after we've moved past this. Because, you know, for us, it's been a good thing because we've been able to grow,

we've got a captive audience, all the rest of it. But for the vast majority of people, this has been a complete and unmitigated disaster. I'm glad you're doing well. Silver lining. Yeah, no, it's massive, isn't it? Unfortunately, with, you know, vaccinations being where they are and with the level of kind of business support,

you would hope we would be in a better position the most to be able to pick up again when things open up. We've done more than most countries to protect business and employment and all of that. So all being well, you know, we were in a position to be able to pick that back up, but we're going to have to deal with huge unemployment. We're going to have to deal with lots of, not even just people being out of work, but those businesses and those jobs not existing.

And we're going to have to create them somewhere else. So there's lots of strands to that, right? The skills stuff that was announced a couple weeks ago, I think it's really important further education and shifting people across into the sectors that are growing, because like you guys said, you know, you guys have done well, other sectors have done well, particularly the kind of logistics and all that kind of stuff.

You know, big Amazon warehouse open near us, which has helped. is to kind of soften the blow a little bit because there was an extra 1,000 odd jobs there just as they were disappearing in other places. So it's a long-term game, though. That's the challenge. And, you know, the worst thing would be to think,

you know, we've got to be thinking 10 years ahead here, where do we want to get to, you know, three years' time and end up letting bloody labour take over and do it all up the wrong way. So it has to be a long-term plan, and I hope, you know, we can convince people to stick with that plan. But equally, the debt, the spending is so big that you can't expect to just whack up a bit of tax here or to cut

a few things there and fix it. It's a long-term approach to dealing with all that as well. Well, I was going to make that point. You mentioned that Britain has done more than other countries to protect people and businesses from the economic impact of what's happening. And I think, you know, a fair observer would say that's accurate. Equal question that a fair observer might ask is, can we actually afford the things that we've done and the things we're yet to do? as you say, the debt and the deficit which runs up the debt are so massive now. We have spent so much money and we have paid, you know, a good chunk of the country not to work for the best part of a year at the time we're recording this.

Can we afford, and how long can we afford to keep this up? Because it's incredibly expensive, isn't it? Yeah, we can't afford it. If we were just doing on what we could afford, we would have stopped a long time ago. But I don't know what else you do. That's the thing. and I think for a lot of conservatives in particular who are, you know, like me, traditionally, you know, small state, personal responsibility, you know, all of this stuff is so far out of my comfort zone that it's not even worth, you know, discuss it. It's just in normal times, I would never ever support measures like the kinds of things that we're doing at the minute. But as I say, it's either that or let things go to the wall, isn't it? So we're kind of are where we are. We're going to have to deal with it. And I think the battle now for people like me is to say, right, how do we get back to, a sensible position in terms of people's independence and personal responsibility

and what the state should be doing and then kind of remove all of that kind of creep that there's been over the last year without kind of damaging people because that's almost a slow and steady process as well I guess if you can't just take away a load of things all in one go and to try and convince the Treasury again that you know actually we were talking politically earlier on if we were going to win the next election, if we're going to convince these former labour votes to stick with us, we've still got to invest. We've still got to build that infrastructure. We've still got to make those places better than they were at the start of all this. So you can't afford to just pull

the plug on that either. It's going to have to be one of those, as I say, very long-term games in terms of managing that debt because there's nothing you can do to flick a switch and just pay it all off. It's not going to happen. Look, I spend a lot of time telling you what's wrong with the world. So let me tell you about something that's actually right. Sleep, specifically getting more of it, better quality, the kind where you wake up and feel like a human being rather than someone who's been thrown down a staircase. Most mattresses are just layers of synthetic foam and crossed fingers.

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Someone has put thought into them. I'll be honest. I'm not the person who thinks carefully about where he sleeps. My dating history will tell you that. I'm the person who's been on the same mattress for eight years and called it fine. But the older I get, the more I notice that fine isn't actually fine. Your body tells you, if you're going to invest in anything for your home, your bed is the one that pays you back every single night.

Avocado products are made, manufactured and thoughtfully crafted with real materials to deliver lasting comfort and support. Go to avocado greenmatress.com slash trigger to check out their mattress and furniture sale. That's avocado green mattress.com slash trigger. Avocado green mattress.com slash trigger. And I mean, one of the challenges that the conservative government is going to face and it's a very, very tough one is, you know, cities like London, it will be. bounce back. It always does. It's an economic hub. But places like Mansfield are places in the

north-east who have suffered this hit, it is going to take far more for them to regenerate. Yeah, sure. And there's a report out last week, I think, about Coltfields in particular that said they reckon they've knocked a decade of progress off of coal field communities in terms of things like employment and people's kind of increasing wages and the standard of living. So huge challenge. There's opportunities as well, though, right? Because for all the negative stuff, there's been some change in that people are working from home. Lots of businesses have discovered they can work from home. Lots of businesses will have discovered they don't actually need to be based in London.

They don't actually need to be based in the city centre. They might not need as big a premises and there'll be lots of changes in how businesses work. So actually, if that's the case, you don't need to be in Nottingham anymore, why not get a cheaper premises in a place like Mansfield? Why not employ people outside of the city? if we can get those transport links and that kind of investment, you know, it makes potentially some of those towns on the outskirts

of some of these cities a more attractive place to start a business and to employ people. And then we've got opportunities on a national level, like in the East Midlands, we've got proposals around like Freeport, some of the stuff we can do post-Brexit that has a huge amount of potential. So there's stuff there. We've just got to tie it together and, you know,

put that infrastructure in place that means you can go and start a business in a Mansfield or a Barnsley or a Stockport, right, rather than having to go into the big cities and do everything from there. It doesn't happen overnight, but we're talking a good game, at least at the minute. We're just going to get out of the other side of the drama. Have you ever been abroad and felt out of place because you didn't speak the language? No, because I voted Brexit. Brexit means Brexit.

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And use the promo code, Trigger. Look at that spelling. He learned English on Babel. I did. But seriously, go to babble.com.com.uk forward slash play, use our code trigger, and enjoy Babel. Well, you mentioned talking a good game. I want to move on to some of the cultural stuff that we talk about on the show quite a bit. And I think you've really made a bit of a name for yourself by being quite problematic. Problematic is what your critics might say. Or brave is what your supporters might say.

But you've spoken up about, you know, men's issues. you've talked about, all sorts of cultural things. And, you know, talking a good game, I think a lot of people felt, particularly at the last election, that the Conservative Party, even one that they didn't necessarily feel super enthusiastic about, was their last chance to hold this cultural shift that we are seeing, what people refer to as the culture war, and that while the Conservative Party may not offer a perfect solution,

were the only opportunity to hold that advance. Obviously, COVID comes, it gets in the way of a lot of that stuff. And I think there has been some frustration with the Conservative government that they're not doing enough on the sort of critical race theory and all of that sort of stuff. How do you feel about how your party is doing on that front? I think you're right about people seeing it as the last chance. We've seen what's happened already in just in the first couple of weeks of a Biden administration in the States and really go into town on all this stuff and embedding that identity politics. I think that's, it's awful some of that, to be honest. I guess in terms of performance, there's an element of just, you know, how many hours

are there in a day, right, with Brexit and COVID. But now we can hopefully certainly move on from the Brexit stuff as things come together, you know, towards the end of this year, be free of COVID stuff and actually have that capacity. But in the meantime, there's been things going on. I mean, you guys will no doubt have seen some of what Liz Trust and Kevin Badenock have been doing in the Equality Office. Kenny gave an amazing speech on critical race theory. It was very impressive.

And Liz, looking at changing, moving away from that Equality Act, focused on identity politics, on physical characteristics, and instead, what are the real inequalities that drive people's life chances, socioeconomic status, geographical inequality, and things that get ignored by the Act, I held a debate in Westminster Hall last year about how I think the Equality Act actually disadvantages certain really disadvantaged groups

or discriminates against them on the basis that if I'm a really rich, well-connected black lad from Hampshire, I can get more support based on the acts than a poor white working class lad in Mansfield despite the fact that I know that that white working class lad has the worst life chances of any group in the country So it doesn't make sense. And finally, we're getting that, I think,

and starting to look at what are the individual issues that hold me back as a person, as opposed to what category I am I in, what box can I be put in. And I think that's a really important step, actually. It's early days. But Liz certainly seems committed to making some big changes there. Is that something that's well understood within your party?

Because I can tell you with a tremendous amount of certainty that there's a lot of people, particularly in areas like yours, who really passionately care about this stuff. And if the Conservative government doesn't deliver on it, they're going to be upset about it. And, you know, everybody, including us, is going to hold your feet to the fire on this one. Yeah, sure.

And it's really important. I keep making the point to anybody who'll listen in number 10 about, you know, we talked about the 2019 election. It wasn't one on the basis that the conservatives normally win elections. We normally talk about it being kind of the economy as the key conservative thing. But actually, it wasn't this time. Arguably, we were telling the country that we were not prioritising the economy. We were going to do something that many people said was going to be damaging.

We were going to do Brexit. And that was bad for the economy, according to every analysis. So what we were talking about was the cultural stuff. It was getting tough on law and order. It was offering that the ladder, the opportunity to people who don't currently get it, that equality conversation, but in a very different way. But if we don't deliver on that equally, you know, If we're just going to be Labor light, then what's the point in voting for us?

You may as well vote for Labor. So we have got a huge challenge and we need to really dig on this reform. There's some big stuff we can do, whether it is the Equality Act, whether it's the Human Rights Act and dealing with some of this illegal immigration and things like that that are really winding people up in my constituency at the minute. But there's opportunities to fix it, a big flagship changes we can make that will make a real difference. It's been brave enough to do it, isn't it, as you say? and tipping enough people over the line to get it done.

And Ben, what would you say to those critics, particularly on the rights of the Conservative Party, both culture and economically, who say that the Conservative Party is many things, but it is not conservative? Sometimes it feels like that, to be honest. But I think, you know, the last year has been really hard, doesn't it?

And you can look at it and go, right, I believe in small government. I believe in, you know, lower spending and more independence. I believe that, you know, ultimately your life and your life chances are your responsibility. And then government puts the framework in place, but you've got to go away and do it. And then the last year, all that's on its head, doesn't it? Because we paid for everything and funded everything and taken away people's freedoms, which is not something that I would hope any conservative politician ever came into politics

or into government to do. So it is a bit mad at the minute. and a lot of those things, like I said earlier, I would never ever consider supporting in a normal time. So we've got to get back to some common sense at the end of all this, and we've got to get back to dealing with those issues in a different way. And that's an interesting argument, because there are lots of people who have pushed for, you know, bigger state, more control, more regulation and all the rest of it, even in the Conservative Party, who are very happy that we've got some of that.

So there is a battle and a conversation to be had, even internally. But, you know, ultimately, there are. enough colleagues in senior positions who are pretty sound and sensible. And certainly, you know, the stuff I've just been talking about, the equality stuff, and lots of stuff around the Human Rights Act and whatever in the Home Office, stuff that's happening. It's already happening. So we're on the way. We just need to get through COVID and get back to something like a normal state of what government's meant to do. You know, and we talk about, and Constantine uses a phrase, hold the feet to the fire. And isn't that worrying that that's not the

Labour Party doing that. That's people within your own side and your own party having to hold the Conservative Party to account. Because Labor, I mean, let's look at their last election result, have become a total irrelevance. Yeah, I mean, the challenge for them, right? So not only if they lost loads of seats, they've lost all the seats in the kind of, what I would call the sensible Northern Working Class bit. Look at him. He looks gutted about this, doesn't he just, it's so upset on behalf of the Labour Party. Absolutely devastated. You know, I wish that they were much more vociferous and winning all over the place. But sadly, it's not going to happen for a while, I hope.

But because they brought in the Corbyn intake, right, although Corbyn's not there anymore, so many of their backbenches are from that kind of Corbyn-Easter, hard left agenda. And even the ones who seem sensible, right, Lisa and Andy was coming around the country after the election saying, how do we figure this out and seemed like she knew what she was doing? And then she decided this week they should scrap the army and have an international peace force instead.

you know, it's just nutty. So they've got a real challenge to try and overcome it. But, you know, maybe that's for the betterment from a government perspective in that it is us, you know, on the more conservative end of the Conservative Party, saying, right, come over and join us, as opposed to being dragged off in the other direction. Yeah, I know what you mean. I'm someone who's always been a floating voter. I voted for different parties throughout history.

And from my perspective, you know, I voted a conservative for the first time in my life at the last election. I want a strong Labor Party. I want a Labour Party to be holding you guys to account. You know, obviously there's certain things on which I don't agree with the Labor Party, but there's a lot of things that they're not doing. And it is frustrating to see just how disorganized and disheveled they look at the moment. Because we do need a strong, robust debate. on many issues, don't we?

Sure, absolutely. It's healthy for democracy and for the country, isn't it? And, you know, we went to too much opposition in 2017 to 19, and it brought everything to a standstill. But actually, you know, there is definitely a place for proper scrutiny, right? And that's what as MPs were supposed to be about, particularly opposition MPs. So there does need to be more.

And when you've got, you know, social media companies making videos about what a waste of space, Kirstarmer. As I saw a Jungle Book 1 this morning that I particularly enjoyed, you know, it's not good. And a lot of people have been saying, as I said, you know, there are celebrities doing more to hold the government to account than the Labour Party. I think Captain Hindsight's a good nickname

because it's just the case of going, if I'd have been there at the time, I'd have done it differently. Well, wouldn't we all? They've got a lot of their own internal problems to deal with, I think, before they can really get to dealing with government. But don't you think that represents a fundamental crisis in democracy, Ben? Like, joking aside, because if no one's going to hold view to account, then what state are we going to be in as a democracy, really?

There's a big challenge at the minute anyway through the COVID stuff with all the emergency powers and everything else that, you know, the role of Parliament is diminished at the minute because we have given them those emergency powers to implement things and come back and ask us afterwards in hindsight and say, you know, would you have done this? And even if we say, no, it's only a motion, it's not a binding vote anyway. So that scrutiny is very much diminished. that Ben Chimpeer, I want to be able to go to Parliament and raise the things I want to talk about as well. It's just what government wants to talk about. Westminster Hall is gone.

You know, those opportunities have disappeared as well. So it's not a healthy situation at the minute, if I'm being honest. We need to get back to a point post all this. Health situation allows where, you know, there is more opportunity to raise other things. There is more opportunity to ask questions of government to scrutinize. You know, debates at the minute aren't debates. They're just a series of speeches where you can't because it's all virtual. So you can't intervene on a minister.

You can't stick around up and say actually you said this and I'm not sure about that, which is where most of that work kind of gets done in terms of scrutiny. So there is a void there and it can't carry on that way. And it sounds like you're concerned. Obviously, I take it that you support the measures in the moment because of the extreme circumstances. But it sounds like you're quite concerned about some of the methods that are being used, becoming the norm, let's say, where the government can just do stuff without going to Parliament. Yeah, sure. You know, everybody, including the government, accepts that it's not, in terms

of process down there, it's far from ideal at the minute. They might, you know, be less worried about that, perhaps because it makes life easier from their point of view. But we certainly need to get back to a position where we debate and decide things before they happen, as opposed to afterwards, the very least, you know. And as I say, as a backbencher, it can be difficult sometimes when you're, you've got certain things you want to raise, local priorities, and normally there are a whole range of ways of doing that at the minute a lot of those don't exist because we can't physically be there, we can't have meetings in the tea room with ministers, we can't have Westminster Hall debates, we can't pop up in the chamber and ask questions ad hoc, it all has to be very planned and rigid.

So it's not great, but, you know, it is temporary, and by the time we get to somewhere, I'd imagine it'd be back to normal. And you say back to normal, I mean this is a particularly nasty question, but do you think we're going to be faced with another austerity program in order to pay for all this? I hope not. Rumours go around all over the place, don't it at the minute? I mean, the irony is, but we're probably going to end up looking at what I guess was the Edmiller band playbook prior to 2015 in terms of spending your way out of crisis.

I think I don't think that either the Conservative Party or the country, to be honest, would accept or would be happy with an austerity round too. But we're in a different position, right? We're not in a position where the whole thing collapsed as it did in 2008, and we weren't in a position to deal with it. We'd spent all the money, and we were kind of scrambling for what to do. It's much more methodical. We were in a better economic position beforehand.

A lot of the impact, as I say, because we've had such a big range of business support and whatever, we'll be able to bounce back a lot quicker, I hope than we did after 2008. But it will be, you know, it'll be a long-term challenge, a difficult thing to do, I guess. Hold on, but you say we're in a better financial position, but we are in more debt than we've ever been.

Oh, right now, yeah. I mean, mid-COVID and all the rest of it, sure. You know, we've spent a lot of money, and we're going to have to sort that out. But I think, you know, the investment in terms of job creation, in terms of the infrastructure to support that job creation and, you know, improve skills and opportunity is the way that we have to get out of it. And rather than think of this as right, we've got five years or ten years to pay off the debt,

which is what they kind of thought in 2008, didn't work, did it. So we're going to have to think about something different, and it needs to be a longer-term plan, which is going to have to be, you know, yes, we're going to have to reduce spending significantly from where we are now. Let's, let's, you know, not be blasé about that. We're spending hundreds of billions of pounds on propping up things that government should never be propping up, you know, so there is going to have to be a lot of kind of rowing back on a lot of the COVID things are back to a level of more normal spending.

But we've got to invest whether it's politically to get those red wall seats over the line next time or whether it's for the economy and to create jobs and to shift people across sectors into new industries is all going to take a bit of spending too. So no, it's a short answer from that big ramble. No, I don't see austerity mart too. Because, I mean, you've got significant changes when we come out of this, Not only do you have to grow the economy once again, but you've also got to go back with the EU,

get everything running smoothly again, because obviously there's been disruption because of Brexit, their stories coming out of the ports, you know, that people are waiting for many, many hours, if not days, they're transport goods, etc., etc. I mean, these are significant challenges that the Conservative government are going to face, aren't they? Yeah, I mean, we all knew post 30th of December

that there would be some disruption. it's been much smaller than most in the media would have had you believe it would be, fortunately. But there are some sectors, you know, we've seen things, particularly around Northern Ireland, particularly around the fishing industry, where we need to find solutions and we need to deal with some of the challenges. And that will happen over the coming kind of months as things come together and particularly unfortunate in some ways, you know, in terms of that disruption, with business being much reduced at the minute, you know, maybe there is that period where clearly travel between the UK and the EU is nowhere near the levels it would normally be,

which perhaps gives us that window to work some of this stuff out over a bit of time. We're going to have to do that, though. And, you know, rebuilding the economy relies on as rebuilding that trade relationship and getting all of that working, as well as the deals we sign in everywhere else, as well as, you know, the opportunities, as I said, like the free ports and that international trade and other places. And other things we want to do more domestically now than we've done before. We're talking about, you know, more steel production, more energy production in the UK.

as opposed to elsewhere. So there's loads and loads of things to deal with. I've got to find the capacity somewhere, haven't we? And Ben, I wanted to ask you this because I'm curious, you know, viruses come along every now and again. This isn't the last one that we deal with. What sort of assessment is the government either doing already or planning to do in terms of an inquiry afterwards, where you actually look at whether the decisions that we've made were the right ones? I'd like to see some analysis, you know, in the cold light of day, not now when it's all heated, but in the cold light of day going, well, actually, were lockdowns the right decision? You know, how effective have they been? What should we do if another virus comes five years down the line? Because I think we'd all accept that this has been less than ideal, to put it very mildly. And I'm not sure that the sort of knee-jerk very, very

heavy reaction we've had is necessarily the one that you might have had, had you had some chance to think about this in advance. So what are you guys looking at to understand the best way to deal with things like this in the future? Sure. And there needs to be that inquiry post all of this. And particularly actually when we know what the economic and social impact of it is, because part of the problem so far, I've stood in the chamber and said, you know, you're asking me to do this. But what is the impact of this? You're asking me to love. things down. But what does that do in terms of the economy, in terms of mental health, in terms of people's education, particularly concerned about schools and all of that? But Ben, there's also

simply the issue of health. I mean, this is one of the things that really does my head in about this. People don't seem to recognize that lockdowns have a health impact as well. I want to know how many people die from lockdown? Why are we never given that comparison? Because surely, if you're making a decision to do a lockdown, you have to understand, of course, yes, how many lives you expect it to save, but also how many people die? And who are those people? Are they young fathers of three versus an 89-year-old in a care home? Those are decisions that you have to look at. Yeah, and we talked about, you know, things like we had international men say, talking about male suicide and things like that. We saw after 2008 economic crash,

the amount of young men out of work who committed suicide, you know, so there are definitely those impacts. I guess the challenge and what government would say is just that assessing those impacts in the here and now, you know, trying to predict what they will be. It's just, incredibly difficult. It's such a complex picture, isn't it, as to what those impacts are, even if we know what they are, because there'll be hidden challenges as well. There's things like domestic violence, things like child abuse while people are locked up at home, that we won't see the impacts of for some time, probably. So at least after all this, we need to sit down and say, right, what are those figures around all of those things, around mental health, around domestic

violence, the economic challenges? Where does that lead us and make that comparison? If we can't do it in here and now, at least need to do it afterwards and assess. I think we've figured some things out already, you know, clearly public health wasn't at all prepared for something on this scale in the first instance, spending too much time telling people what to eat probably, as opposed to being prepared for these kind of things, and they're going to have to be. So there's been a lot of investment and change there already, and that will change further. So there's some things we've picked up on from the off. But definitely, you know, when sadly, you know, the social impact of all of this won't be probably clear for a while and some of it will go on for for decades,

generations probably, particularly the schools and educational side of things, you know. I think that I had to look at some stats through the week. There's a thousand children in Nottinghamshire, excluding the city. So it's probably more like 2,000 children across the county and city of Nottingham and Nottingshire who are known to children's services, so vulnerable kids who need, you know, intervention from local government, who are not at school. And we don't know what's happening to those kids. We're not, normally teachers would look out for them. You know, the impact of that on those children is going to be massive and going to last for a long time. So there's going to be a lot of work to do.

I mean, this is, as a former teacher, everyone can drink. Now, this is a thing that I'm worried about. And I think, and I'm in agreement with you, I think studies are going to be done in the next few years to monitor what has happened to this generation. I think you're going to see increased levels of unemployment, addiction, etc. etc, etc. as these poor kids have missed a whole year of schooling. And it's not just the fact when they go back to school, they're going to be a year behind. They're probably going to be two years behind because not only did they stop their education, they effectively regressed as well. Yeah. And, you know, whilst we already had an inequality in terms of disadvantaged kids and communities like the one I represent, you know, where the attainment isn't as high, more of those

kids are not home learning in the same way. You know, you've got kids from, from, from, I affluent families or kids where parents might be furloughed at home or might be able to do more work with those kids. In many ways, if you're doing one-to-one education at home, you could be doing more than you did at school if you get a good quality. Whereas other kids are getting nothing or parents have to work full-time from home whilst they're looking after kids. And you can imagine quite you 14, 50-year-old teenagers who normally would have seven hours

at school being looked after by a teacher just left with their own devices all day, every day. It's Gary in the internet in their bedroom. They've got to be delighted, mate. Yeah, I mean, it'd be a dream for me as a 14 year old, but would it be particularly beneficial for me in the long term? Probably not. So that gap's only going to widen and it's going to be a huge challenge to pull it back because that was one of the things we promised in 2019 that we would narrow that gap and it's only going to have got wider over the last year. It's fascinating

having this conversation with you because I almost feel like you're talking like a lefty from the 1980s, talking about class inequality, poor working class boys, etc. But that seems to have been the shift that has happened, where, you know, when people on the left now, you know, the left now talk about inequality, they're talking about it from a sort of race, sex, sexuality type of perspective. Instinctively, you strike me as someone who has a very strong aversion to all of that stuff. Am I right about that? I'm glad you noticed. Yeah, there have been some really interesting studies into it all. You know, the idea that, you know, basically the class war failed and now they've had to go and find some other groups on the left to choose as the next people to rise up

and overthrow capitalism or whatever. We've gone with these identity groups. It's like a hierarchy of victimhood, isn't it? Where do we sit on the list and how much grievance can we find? I think, you know, there are clearly, you know, racism, sexism, homophobia, very real, there are genuine problems. But to me, just our problems of individual attitudes, they're not systemic. They're not, you know, our structures are not designed to prevent black people from succeeding. There are all the factors underneath that, right? And largely, it's socioeconomic. It's about, you know, where you grow up, how much money you've got, how connected you are to those networks that can get you into, you know, jobs and education and opportunities. And that's the thing we've got to deal with. That

geographical and economic inequality. And the rest kind of follows. I also kind of think that, you know, attitudes have changed an awful lot over the last 20, 30 years in terms of, you know, the characteristics, in terms of homophobia racism, has come on leaps and bounds. It will carry on.

Personally, I don't think my generation really sees those things as issues at all, or certainly the vast majority, and that will continue over time, because that's what we teach our kids. that's why I teach my kids, that those things don't really matter. But the more we kind of throw it out in front of everybody, the more we make it front and center of the conversation,

the more it does matter, because that's all we talk about, that's all we focus on. And I think it sets the whole challenge back by decades, to be honest. I mean, it does set the whole thing back, because it doesn't matter, and this is one of the things, one of my bug bears with the left, it doesn't matter what people on the right do, if you have a Saddid Javid, you know,

everybody should be, you know, really, really impressed by what he has accomplished, regardless of his politics. You know, son of a bus driver from Tooting, rose up to become a highly successful banker, then segued into politics. That's the story that should be celebrated, surely. But because he has the wrong opinions, they use a whole raft of epithets against him. And in particular, say he's not an authentic Asian person, which to me is baffling. That's how you know your progressive, mate. Yeah, that's the been, I think every, you know, every black or Asian conservative MP would probably tell you the same. I know our good friends with Tammy Badnock, for example, and she gets the same.

We had it in the chamber. Labor MPs telling Priti Patel that her experience of racism wasn't genuine enough. You know, it's mad and it is, does become for them this hierarchy of, you know, who is the most oppressed. My own experience is that the majority of people who are supposedly in that system of oppression don't actually feel oppressed. They would much rather get, you know, be able to have opportunity and succeed on their own merits than because of some physical characteristic that gives them extra help. We find in the Conservative Party all time you talk to Conservative women about the idea of all female shortlists and they're horrified largely because they don't feel like they need that actually to be able to get by. they're perfectly talented and capable in their own right. So it's a very divided converser we talked before about, you know, the division in these discussions. And it's another one that makes people very angry on either end, isn't it?

That's probably why some of the stuff that I've said has had such a big reaction. But I don't think it's healthy to just draw everything back to those characteristics. We had the International Men's Day debate and I talked about, I felt like everything always focused around those things. So I just wanted to talk about blokes, actually, you know, not minority groups or not whatever. just kind of everyday blokes like me and communities like mine, I got slated for it, and the Labour front bench speech brought it back to men who are BME and men who are LGBT and can we not just talk about men,

full stop. All men, right. And that will include those men. This is the thing. Exactly. I just find it's so exclusionary the way that these conversations are being had. And I'm glad you're speaking up about you mentioned you getting a lot of flak and you certainly have got a lot of flag.

for taking those views. Do you think that that is the understanding of these issues that you've sort of described for us, is that something that people in your party broadly understand or are you sort of the naughty boy with his hand up at the back of the class at the moment? I think I certainly probably used to be, but there is a lot of understanding of it.

A lot of people who agree very strongly, but actually a bit worried about speaking out because they see the flag that I get and they don't fancy it, which I understand. A lot of those conversations have gone behind the scenes, and actually more and more, particularly from the 2019 intake, because we've seen that geographical shift, right? We've seen MPs from the Midlands and the North

from different backgrounds representing different areas who've kind of come in and really shifted the nature of the Conservative Party, actually I think, in a really good way, which means there are a lot more of them who feel strongly about this stuff and are willing to speak out about it. And there's different groups that pop up. I have a group called the Blue Collar Conservatives, which is more about those kind of values.

There's one called the Common Sense Group, which is a lot of MPs who look at the kind of culture discussion, done a lot of stuff around the kind of history and monuments and Churchill and whatever over the last year and just that patriotism element that is really valued, I think, by communities like Mansfield and lots of others. So there's a lot of it going on, some more vocal than others, some of us perhaps draw a bit more flack than others. I've also felt like, to be honest, because of winning a seat like Mansfield and the nature of that history, and Labour still feel like it's theirs. And that makes me a bit of a target as well, to be honest, since day one. I mean, moving on, one of the challenges the Conservative government is going to face, it's almost going to be somewhat a crisis for you, which is a civil liberties question regarding vaccinations.

What legislation is going to come in? Is it going to be no vaccination, no job? like for instance the chief at Pimlico Plummers is saying with new contracts, you're not going to get offered a contract. What is the government's position on things like this and travel, etc, etc? Yeah, well, I mean, as far as I'm aware in the conversations I've had, there's no sense of doubt. I certainly wouldn't support a no vaccine, no job policy. I think for, you know, we've got to win the argument.

We can't be a party that says, you know, you can't shut down free speech, you can't shut down debate and accuse the left and then shut down. things that we don't agree with. If we want to convince antivaxies to have a vaccine, we need to convince them, not legally oblige them. Just sorry to interrupt there. It's not only anti-vaxxers that you need to convince.

Actually, as you were saying earlier, there's a lot of people who are not on either extreme. There's a lot of people who are not anti-vaxxers, but they're not necessarily convinced that a vaccine that's been rapidly produced, not had any long-term testing. We don't know necessarily what the long-term impact are. they're just sort of have a healthy curiosity about that issue.

It's not only anti-vaxas that you need to convince. I agree. And, you know, I talk to people, particularly younger people, I think, who are saying, you know, what, my chances of dying at this are like next to nothing. So why would I take any kind of risk on a vaccine? You know, a couple of my female friends in the late 20s, early 30s have said, you know, what if it impacts my fertility in a decade's time? You know, things like that that we maybe don't know.

I can't pretend I know enough about the science to say. but we do have to win that argument, right? If we want to have the vaccination as widespread as it needs to be, that is something that the scientists and the government need to explain and put across and make sure that it happens. There's no sense to me of either by legal force or by coercion being able to say you must have it or else. I don't morally that doesn't sit well with me,

regardless of anything else. I don't think the government should be able to force people to inject chemical in their body if they don't want to. Just not something I would ever. ever support. But I don't know, on the other end, you know, you talk about Pimicoe plumbers. I don't know what the stance is in terms of if businesses want to do that. I don't know what the position is. And we've seen, we'll see others and areas that we can't control. So like if you want to fly to Australia and Qantas want you to have had the vaccine,

then there'll be nothing we can do about that. Because it's not a UK company and it's up to Australia, who they let in. So I have no doubt there will be examples of that around the world. But it's not something I fancy in the UK. No, absolutely not. I'm just moving on just before we finish, the issue of big tech is rearing its head. We've seen the Polish government saying that they're going to find big tech if they, you know, take down content which doesn't contravene Polish law. What is the government position on big tech because it's going to become a bigger and bigger issue, particularly as we go through, you know, and as it becomes more prevalent in all our lives? sure and it's another really contentious one isn't it where almost the same argument how how much do you

impinge on free speech in order to keep people safe um it's really difficult my own view is that um as you mentioned with poland you know if it's not illegal then it's not illegal i don't think and we've seen in the last few weeks pretty pite pettel talking about rowing back on some of the kind of hate crime legislation which i think would be a really positive thing the idea that needs to happen yeah that needs to happen it does you know, the idea that you can go to jail from being mean, saying some mean words to somebody, I think is absolute nonsense. So we need to sort that out.

And hopefully that helps to deal with some of the online conversation as well, because in the same way, you know, at the minute, there are people who have been investigated by the police for saying, you know, women and women and men are men. It's absolute madness. So we need to clear up what is legal and illegal offline so that we can clear up what's legal and illegal online. I know there's a lot of concern.

about a kind of overreach on the online harm stuff and that limiting free speech. But to be honest, I'd like to see it go the other way. I think the idea that we should give all this power to Mark Zuckerberg and Twitter and people to decide what is and isn't acceptable in our online speech is just a bad way to go. And what would you say to those people who go,

look, Ben, these are lovely words that you're saying and the government try and do stuff. But even the UK government is powerless against the might of big tech. We've got billions and billions and, billions of dollars behind them. You know, there is certainly a lot of power that it's wielded there, right? And if we're all on these platforms and if we all, you know, give them all of our information,

right, the amount of people who come to me and say, I'm not going to fill in this form, I'm not going to give you my email address because I don't want you to have it and use it, but I'm quite happy to be on every social media platform going with Facebook knowing when they're going to the shops and how long they go to the toilet each day. I think people don't realize how much data they give away and how much power that gives to some of these companies. Maybe there's more we need to do there to open that up. I certainly think one good thing we could do

is make sure and go work with these companies to make sure that actually you can't set up anonymous accounts without any way of tracing people. I think that's probably something that would be good and healthy to have that accountability. I know a lot of the abuse and some of the threats that I get come from anonymous accounts where nobody can really tell me or where I've reported things to the police and police can't trace people. So, you know, maybe that's one step we could take.

Yeah, there's a few issues with that, one of them being like whistleblowers and stuff. You do want some ability for people to remain anonymous. But I take a point. But it doesn't have to be publicly visible, does it? I don't have to know as a member of the public looking at a Twitter account who it is, but Twitter should know. And they should, they should be that ability for the government or the police to then go, right, I'm investigating this and you need to hand over that information to me, as opposed to, you know, it doesn't have to be visible to everybody all the time, but where things are illegal, there should be that scope. I see your point. I see a point. Yeah, there's some issues with that. That could be misused.

There's certainly the idea of giving Twitter more information about us is difficult. But you make the point, it's a difficult thing. The one thing I wish, and, you know, we've got you on the show. so when you cross, when you enter the door of number 10 as Prime Minister one day, maybe keep this in mind, mate. One thing I think politicians massively underestimate is how much of your power this is taken away because these big tech companies get to influence, you know, elections at some point. They get to influence everything that happens what people think, what people get to say, who gets to be on it.

And I think that will eventually come to dilute a lot of the power that you have, from the people. And it messes with the whole idea of democracy. And I hope that more people in politics become aware of that. I think that's absolutely right. And, you know, we've had the big discussion about the state, certainly, and that election and the impact of media and big tech on that, you know, I don't condone anything Donald Trump's done. I think he's gone nuts, to be honest, but the idea that Twitter can silence the president to the United States is not a healthy position, regardless of who that president is. So there is a lot of work that needs to be done. And so there is a lot of work it needs to be done. It's incredibly complex, isn't it? Because there is nothing that just is the

right answer. Everything is a trade-off. And it's a moral judgment there for us to where you want to draw that line. But, you know, there certainly needs to be a real scrutiny and a real good look at that. And it's probably top of the agenda from all sorts of points of view, isn't it? Whether it's free speech or dealing with crime or just the online harms bill that's already being drafted as we speak. So it's going to be a conversation we have this year, I have no doubt. Fantastic. Well, Ben, thank you so much for coming on the show. It's been an absolute pleasure. The question that we always ask at the end is always the same, which is, what's the one thing we're not talking about as a society, but we really should be? I think it's the thing that actually we've been talking about, but very few others are, and it is that equality conversation.

You know, I think you do get shut down a lot when you raise this, and people are really uncomfortable talking about different routes around that. I think that we need to do it very differently, and I think an awful lot of people agree with me. But it doesn't get discussed enough. I keep talking about white working class lads in communities like mine who don't get the same opportunity, who are bottom of all the lists. And we have ignored that conversation for a long time because it's not very politically correct. And I don't think we can. I think it's increasingly important. So if there was one thing, I would whack on the top of the agenda, it would be that.

The one thing I would certainly hope, and I think I speak for everyone probably in this conversation, is World peace. World peace. No, no, fuck that. No, the one thing I would hope for is that we stop having this conversation in racial terms. I just don't think that's helpful. I don't think it's helpful to talk about black kids, and I don't think it's helpful to talk about white working class boys,

even in the slight way that you've done that. I think we need to talk about people who are genuinely disadvantaged, whatever their race, whatever their sex, all of that. I absolutely agree. And I've found it the most frustrating thing in the world, that having got into Parliament, I'm talking about disadvantaged kids, I'm talking about disadvantaged communities,

working class communities, how do we improve on this? Nobody paid the blindest bit of attention until I started saying white working class boys, and all of a sudden, it got loads of coverage, we got debates in the House, and it got picked up.

And that's the frustrating position we find ourselves in, right? It's like I mentioned with International Men's Day, unless you say LGBT or BME or whatever, then people aren't bothered. And it feels like that, a little bit and that's a really unhealthy situation because we do need to be exactly what

you said where actually race, sexuality, gender is not even relevant to the conversation. It's just how do we help people who need help and that's where we need to get to. So that's where we need to start with what things to raise and conversations have. Well said, all the best of luck to you. We will be watching

and as I say, you know, a lot of our fans are like us sort of floating voters and we will be looking to see which way the government takes these things over the next couple of years. Ben, thanks for coming on the show. It's been a pleasure chatting with you. Annie, good to see you. And thank you all for watching. We will see you very soon with another episode like this one or a live stream. At 7pm UK time, every episode, every live stream. Take care and see you soon, guys. How many discounts does USAA Auto Insurance offer? Too many to say here. Multi-vehicle discount, safe driver discount, new vehicle discount,

storage discount, legacy. How many discounts will you stack up? Tap the BAMB, or visit usaaa.com slash auto discounts. Restrictions apply.