TRIGGERnometry - "Burning and Looting Doesn't Make People Less Racist" - Dr Dina McMillan

Episode Date: May 9, 2021

Dr Dina McMillan is an internationally known social psychologist and relationship expert. Join our exclusive TRIGGERnometry community on Locals! https://triggernometry.locals.com/  OR Support TRIGGERnometry Here: https://www.PayPal.me/triggerpod https://www.subscribestar.com/triggernometry https://www.patreon.com/triggerpod Bitcoin: bc1qm6vvhduc6s3rvy8u76sllmrfpynfv94qw8p8d5 Buy Merch Here: https://www.triggerpod.co.uk/shop/ Advertise on TRIGGERnometry: [e-mail] Join the Mailing List: https://www.triggerpod.co.uk/sign-up/ Find TRIGGERnometry on Social Media:  https://twitter.com/triggerpod https://www.facebook.com/triggerpod https://www.instagram.com/triggerpod About TRIGGERnometry:  Stand-up comedians Konstantin Kisin (@konstantinkisin) and Francis Foster (@francisjfoster) make sense of politics, economics, free speech, AI, drug policy and WW3 with the help of presidential advisors, renowned economists, award-winning journalists, controversial writers, leading scientists and notorious comedians. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hello and welcome to Trigonometry. I'm Francis Foster. I'm Constantine Kissen. And this is a show for you if you want honest conversations with fascinating people. Our brilliant guest today is a social psychologist. Dr. Dina McMillan, welcome to Trigonometry. Thank you. Thank you for having me on. Oh, it's a great pleasure to have you on. Listen, for anyone who's not familiar with you, a lot of people will be, but some won't be. Who are you? How are you where you are? What has been the journey that leads you through life sitting here talking to us? Well, I studied social psychology at Stanford University, followed by working in the field and examining the world through that lens, which is going to be very relevant to the conversation we're going to have today. Yes, it is.

You are originally from the United States. You live in Australia now. You've worked in a few different disciplines. You've worked with abuse victims. Tell us a little bit about that, maybe before we get into some of the other stuff. Well, I work, I still do work in domestic violence. I have one of the only prevention programs available in the world. It's called Unmasking the Abuser.

And I actually teach the tactics used by abusers during the earliest grooming phases of the relationship. And because of COVID and the strict restrictions here in Melbourne during that time, I decided to have a podcast where I took all of my information, and put it on a podcast. So it's also called unmasking the abuser, and it's on all of the platforms. Wow. I mean, that sounds incredibly helpful and incredibly valuable,

because a lot of the time, you know, people aren't aware the fact that they're being groomed. So what are these early signs, Dina, that somebody can be aware of when they're getting into this type of relationship? Well, the one thing I usually say if I have a little sound bite is that look out for too much, too soon. One of the biggest and most reliable indicators of a potentially abusive relationship

is speed, that they start from the very beginning talking about the future, too many compliments, too many gifts, too much discussion about how we're going to live our lives, what kind of kids we're going to have. And it's too soon in the relationship. You barely know each other. And by too soon in the relationship, what are we talking about? Weeks, months, days? Days, sometimes. Some of these things show up at the very earliest stages, like someone joking on the first date, you know, oh, we'd have beautiful children or introducing you after the second date as their girlfriend

or jokingly, oh, this is my future wife, that kind of thing, talking about, oh, we should take holidays together, we should buy a house. Oh, if you were with me, we could have such wonderful lives together. You have to be very careful. It sounds like a dream come true, but it's really a nightmare. So there's those initials. So that's the first red flag. And what are other red flags on this particular journey? Well, at the same time, they're trying to pull you in and talk about your life together. You notice that something's wrong. There's a lot of control that goes on. There's there will be snipes, criticism, contempt for your beliefs. So it's like too much of one and then too much of the other.

And it starts right away. It starts from the very earliest days. It's really interesting. And I recommend the people who are interested in that, check out your work on that side of things. Tell us a little bit about some of the other areas you've been working on as well, because I think they're probably the main thing we wanted to talk with you about today. Well, I also, looking at what happened during this COVID period with the violent protests and

the divisiveness in the rhetoric that we're hearing, I decided to put together a program called Healing the Rift. Because as a social psychologist, we learn a lot about the brain, how we learn, how we're influenced, but we also learn flow-on effects. And I was, looking at the narrative and the focus and the tactics being used in anti-racism programs. And it was very evident to me from the beginning that they would have the exact opposite impact, that they're likely to increase racial divisions. So I decided to put together a program called Healing the Rift to talk about bias. Because a lot of what is being called racism is actually racial bias based on exposure, based on information.

And I'm not saying bias doesn't count. It does. But it's much more easily remedied than making a conscious choice to disrespect or hate people who are other races. Dina, there's a couple of things I want to unpack that. So let's start with the first one. I'll come back to the second one. The first one being, and, you know, to me,

it was also self-evident that this would be the consequences, but how did you know as a social psychologist that this so-called anti-racism training would actually increase racial tension? Well, I knew, and it's interesting because I told my listeners for my podcast series, and I'm going to tell your audience now, the same tactics I was seeing abusers used to lure in new partners and take over their lives

and lead them astray, I was seeing social movements do the same thing. So once you recognize the tactics of not just influence, but manipulation, gaslighting, once you know those, you can apply them anywhere in your life, not just to romantic relationships. And I was seeing the social movements use the same manipulative, even abusive tactics

to get their message, cross. Like what? Like what, Dina? Can you give us some examples of some of the things that were being done that set off the alarm bells for you? Well, one of the simplest examples is having protesters go past restaurants where people are sitting outside and eating and forcing them to do the black power salute in order not to be harassed by the protesters. And as a student of history and as a former military brat who went to high school in Germany, I recognize that sort of methodology as something the Nazis used to do. They used to force people to give the Nazi salute. So I looked at that and I thought, you know, having a slogan is not the same as having a policy. You know, black lives

matter. Yeah, well, they do. And I also wanted to quickly explain to your British audience why that's such a deal. In the states, there is sometimes among very biased law enforcement the use of a term NIH whenever blacks are involved in a crime. And that means no humans involved. And if you study the judicial system, you'll see a lot of disparity between what happens to a white person who commits a crime and what happens to a black person who commits a crime. So that is where the impetus came for a movement like Black Lives Matter. But they took a slogan and an issue and everything they did made it worse. So you're saying everything they did made it worse.

Can you give us some examples, please? Violent protests, having 245 violent protests, often taking. place in black communities. So encouraging people who are frustrated with their lives, first of all, to look outward for the problem. Let's blame it all on the police. Let's burn down City Hall. Let's burn down the stores. Let's loot the stores in our neighborhoods. How in the world is that going to make people less racist? Billions of dollars of damage. How in the world is that going to make people less racist? It's a good point, Dina. Their counter argument would be, look, we've tried peaceful process before this hasn't happened. We need to do extreme measures in order for

our aims to be fulfilled. Yes, but it's the same. You cannot threaten people to accept you. And I I have also, as someone who works with relationships, not just abusive ones, but healthy ones too, I've never seen anything work if the effort is only on one side. So now we have a movement that's teaching whites that all of you are racist, all of you are wrong, being white equals being a white supremacist, with no effort expected on the black community

to look at what are we doing that is leading us to these points, results. Is there anything we can do to improve? There's not a lot of emphasis on that. And that is always a problem. And I want to talk about your solutions and your approaches in the second, but you mentioned the difference between racism and racial bias. Can you break that down for us and our audience? Because that is a distinction that is rarely made. Well, it's rarely made and it's funny because I'm putting together some short YouTube videos, and my first one is going to be called Why You're Not a Racist.

And the single reason is because they switched the definition. Racism used to be a conscious choice where you said my race is superior, all other races are inferior, I disrespect, I dislike, I even mean harm to those other groups. Now they've switched it to if you have a certain tone of skin,

you absolutely must be racist. Now, that doesn't mean there isn't racial bias. We have a lot of messages, social messages, built into our environment that show blacks one way, whites another way, and that can lead to bias. Bias is just a predisposition, positive or negative, against a person or a group. So you can be, I'll give you an example.

Over this COVID period, for some reason, I've been meeting all these wonderful women named Carol or Carolyn. So I recently had an interview with a woman who's writing a chapter in a book I've been asked to write a chapter in, and her name is Carol. So I apologize to her because I was positively predisposed towards her even before she said a word because I've met all this. these wonderful carols and carolets. It can be positive too. But bias is just having a little bit of your mind made up before you actually even interact with that person. That's not the same as disrespect, dislike, and even an intention to harm. But isn't the problem as well, the fact that, you know, we're just more biased towards people who look like us, like us come from similar communities. So then when you have someone who comes from a different

community who looks different, is going to be more of a challenge for them to get the job than somebody, you know, who is different to them. So wouldn't that feel like racism as well? The fact that they're always having to prove themselves and do a little bit more to secure a position and so on and so forth. Absolutely. All of us have bias. Every person has a bias. And it's base, the foundation of bias is a perception of us and them. So the solution is pretty simple. In my program, we go through a few exercises you can do to widen the scope of what you consider us. So as long as you see someone as them, you're not going to utilize as much cognitive energy to process that person. You'll make up your mind more quickly. You'll

be way more heavily any mistakes that they make. But you can stop yourself in the middle, take a deep breath, and reprocess that. It's not even that hard. And what level do you go to? Because to me, that sounds like a good argument for, like a nation state, let's say. Like we can all come to America and we can all say, well, I'm an American. Or we can all come to Britain and we can say, well, we're all British.

And that way, the divisions within the country potentially become less important because we're all British. Doesn't matter what our skin color is, our religion, we're all British. But then the problem is if we say, well, we're all British, then we're sort of legally obliged to hate the French. And then we start a war. And then before you know it, you're in World War III. So how far do you take this expansion of what you perceive as your tribe? Well, what happens, though, is once you start to expand who you, see as your tribe, you're not as inclined to just go to war with people. All it will take is a few

nice French people to come over with some wine, you know, some nice little niblies, and all of a sudden they're not them anymore. They start to kind of BS. And you start talking about, you know, we decent people against the bad people. And it changes. Now, I grew up in military. I mentioned that. one of the things that's really interesting growing up military is when you live on a base, all of your neighbors don't look like you. You have a lot of intermarriage where military people go overseas and marry someone from that country. You're assigned housing, so you're not allowed to use your own bias to determine what neighborhood you live in. And it's interesting how many of those divisions start to mitigate. once you live next door to people.

So that's not, you know, the Vietnamese people are a real problem. It's, you know, Joe was really there for me when my mom had a heart attack and, you know, this person helped me put my cable up and it starts to really change your idea about us and them. So I did have an advantage going into social psychology based on the fact that I'm an army breath. And I think I already know the answer to this question. So what do you think of initiatives like anti-biased training, somebody coming in and leading a training program? Do you agree with that or do you think it needs to be done more organically?

Well, one of the reasons I developed my own anti-bias program is because a lot of the anti-bias programs that I was saying were actually anti-white programs, and that's not the same thing. I want to, no blame and shame, talking about the fact that we all have biases, looking at examples that have nothing to do with skin tone. You know, my sister, Iya, who lives in Minneapolis, she did some of the training with me over your summer.

And she uses an example of having a bias against a guy who was applying for a job because his shoes weren't shined. And coming from a military family, we were taught that was a sign of disrespect. Now, talking about somebody's shoes has absolutely nothing to do with racism. I think a lot of the anti-biased programs that we have put the onus completely on whites to change their thinking without any acknowledgement that, first of all, some of the bias is always going to be there because we're more comfortable with people who think like we do and believe like we do. And also, they don't really, when you're starting on the back foot, you're not necessarily going to be very open to the teachings. I just think that they start off with, you know, all white people are bad.

I would hate that. I felt like as a black person, I had to come forward because I can't stand bullying. I don't care who it's against. And I saw white. I never thought this would happen. I saw white people being bullied. And I just couldn't stand it. Hey, KKK, do you like feeling silky and smooth like a sexual dolphin?

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Look, there's still a way to go. Racism still obviously exists and no one would deny that. But isn't part of the problem for a lot of, black, people, especially older black people, you know, living in the 80s, the 70s, the 60s, they've experienced real racism, real bigotry that, in a way, isn't this just unprocessed trauma as well? Absolutely. Absolutely. And it's really interesting. I use an example, and I've been talking to some of my colleagues in the States about this. And it's led to some interesting conversations. When I first moved to Australia in 2004, I had family come and visit me, but I didn't go back to the States for two years. Now, my family, my dad had retired to Tucson, Arizona, and I thought, oh, it's just, it's okay, kind of unfriendly, but it's okay.

I went back after two years in Australia where people didn't assume I was dangerous. People didn't assume that they knew everything about me when they saw my skin tone. and I didn't realize how much it had changed me beyond my conscious awareness and Constantine, that's what I mean about the different areas of the brain, the process information. I went to Tucson and it was a totally different place for me.

Everywhere I went, everyone was talking to me, whether I went to a restaurant or a cafe or the checkout line at the chemists, everyone was suddenly so friendly. And the political situation hadn't changed, the only thing that it changed was me. And you can hear, you could not look at me and say, oh, I'm sure she lives in Australia. I sound like I just arrived yesterday. I still sound very American. They had no way of knowing. But my nonverbal behavior, my lack of defensiveness,

made a huge difference in how people interacted with me. So while we're trying to get rid of bias and racism and whatever else negative that we want to get rid of. Let's teach both sides. Let's teach people who've been discriminated against how to relax when they're interacting with people, have an expectation of acceptance and see what happens. Well, Dina, one of the things you mentioned it, and actually it was something we were talking about before we started, so let's get into it now because I think it's a crucial piece of this. We are having what, I mean, could be the described as an intellectual discussion here, right?

Not when I type of partner. Correct. But when I'm involved, we're having an intellectual discussion. But what you are really talking about, and this is something I found very powerful and very interesting about your approach, which is why we were so keen to get you onto the show, is that you talk essentially about the fact that you cannot convince people of what you are saying logically. We like to joke on the show about...

destroying people with facts and logic. And essentially your senses or your experiences and your belief as a professional, that doesn't change minds because this stuff is taught at the level of emotion. Talk to us about that. Yes. Well, one of the things that I teach, even in the seminars that I do for 13, 14-year-olds, I use Paul McLean's Triune Brain Theory. Now, there's a little bit of controversy about it as being too simplistic, but I find it to be a wonderful device because it basically divides the brain into three parts and talks about the fact that they process information differently and all at the same time.

Now, if you look at and what is really fascinating is that most of us are so attached to our neocortex, our intellectual brain, the language part of our brain. but it's only responsible for between 5 to 8% of our life decisions. The other 88 to 95% are made using primarily the limbic brain, which is the emotion center, and our reptilian brain, which is the primal reactive part of our minds. So when people have a belief that motivates them, that they cling to, that means that that belief has gone into their limbic mind and it may even have been fear-based or desire-based and therefore in the reptilian brain. So if we're going to change their thinking and their attachment, if we're going to dislodge

this error in thinking, we have to use the same sort of mechanisms that implanted and embedded that information in those parts of the brain. So in other words, if feelings don't care about your family, how do you convince people to listen to what you're saying, which is, yes, bias exists, yes, prejudice exists, but saying all white people are evil isn't the way to solve bias, and it's actually going to make it worse. Because let's be honest, it's been going on for quite a while. A lot of us have been saying, this is bad, this doesn't work, this reminds us of certain bad things, and it's only accelerating. So how do you do it? We have to

get together and do more than just discuss it. We have to use the influence mechanisms that are the most effective. We have to use storytelling. We have to get role models. We have to use role play. We have to use music, music lyrics. We have to use all of these mechanisms, what I call the three A's, which is attention, admiration, and acclaim.

So we have to use who gets an award or a reward, who gets the attention about something. We have to use the same influence mechanisms that the other side used to make people believe these things to dislodge these things. To give us something a bit more concrete on that front, what are you talking about exactly? Well, you look at who gets the attention, okay? Carolyn M. West is a professor at the University of Washington, and she is helping me with a revision of my original book called Buddy Says He Loves Me, where I outline the tactics used by abusers,

and we are specifically targeting black women in America. And she has worked her whole career on this, and we've been talking about the imagery projected by things like Cardi B, and Cardi B's popularity. And the fact that Cardi B was the one black woman selected to speak to then candidate Joe Biden. When you do things like that, it's like saying, okay, who gets to actually have a public audience with the queen where it gets lots of publicity? That has a huge impact on what those primal parts, the emotional parts and primal parts of our brain perceive. is important. Even if we intellectually dismiss it, those parts of the brain are more powerful than our

intellect, and they don't have a filter. So they take it all in. And our brain is programmed, pre-programmed, to adapt. So we start first by being less shocked, and then by being more accepting of these values. So I'm looking at all of this. You're Cardi B, really? That's the black woman, not a black scientist, not a young black girl who's, you know, worked hard in her community to improve things for the average person living there. The role model is a woman who is a former stripper who talks about having robbed her Johns and presents herself in the most pornographic way possible. This is who they have held up as an icon for young black girls. Would you not argue, though, Dina, that is a sign of racism, though, because what it's saying is, you know, for example,

that that is all that that particular sectional community are capable of. For example, that's the thing that we should uphold about them, not, you know, the business owners, the intellectuals, the academics, etc., etc. You saying Joe Biden is racist? Well, if you don't vote for him. I absolutely think it was racist. but I look, one of the problems about stereotypes and racism and even strong bias is that it doesn't just impact how other people, other tribes think about your tribe.

It will influence how you think about yourself. Oh, absolutely. And I'm looking at how many young black people accept this, give awards to these people. They say, oh, my goodness, you know, the presidential candidate actually spoke with her. So this is something we should admire. You saw all the TikTok videos of people, you know, dancing and doing even small children doing these things. And I watched in horror because I know not only were they replicating the values that were being presented, it was going into a part of their brain. It's going to take real effort to dislodge that.

But it's not going to lead them anywhere good. I guess what I'm asking you in terms of what can be done. I know that your program Healing the Rift will be part of that, of course, but I was thinking in a more selfish way, like what can we, what can people watching this at home be doing? Like for us, I guess we've had a number of prominent black intellectuals on the show who are concerned and critical about some of the things that are being done. And through the example of them talking about it,

I know many, many people who watch our show who maybe were sitting on the fence, many black people, but seeing the example of an Aisha, Canby, or an Anaya for Larian Imman, or a Zubi, or Glenn Lowry, or yourself or other people we've got in the pipeline, I think opens their mind somewhat. Is that one of the things that we all ought to be doing is giving, you know, a voice and a platform to people like that? Absolutely, because attention is part of it.

You know, one of the ways of processing information, how our primal child brain that still makes a lot of our decisions, it is so important who gets the attention, who gets to actually tell their story. It's a huge influence. You'll notice that any cause that is being promoted gets a lot of attention. People who are part of that group get a chance to tell their story, always from a sympathetic perspective. And it has an impact. So yes, paying attention, actually listening, actually thinking about it is a big deal. But we need to also, those of us who want to change things, whatever race we are, we need to do things like Lawrence Fox, run for office. We need to write films and stories that have these values in them that actually show things. I am actually looking for funding right now, actively seeking funding.

I want to do an online YouTube course on influence because I want to show everybody in the world how the brain works and how we're being influenced to believe things and to advocate for things that are actually not in our best interest and may even be destructive. And I don't want to just preach it people. I want to show you how your brain works. And you've touched on YouTube.

Again, another part of the puzzle is social media because the reality is, you know, the most divisive voices are the ones that get elevated on social media because they have the most engagement. Yeah, 60,000 followers, though, mate, come on. Well, yes, but I have to say, I don't consider myself divisive.

No, no, no, no, no, we were joking. We weren't talking about you. We weren't talking about you. No, no, no. It is easier. Well, one of the things that you may not be aware of that a lot of people who think like I do, who look at a lot of the policies being advocated by the people that are being,

that are often called the woke, that if you are against anything they believe, you are absolutely abjectly rejected. If you're black, you're called all sorts of names. But on the other side, if we label ourselves conservative, there is an expectation that we claim that racism is a lot of, that currently there's no racism anymore. It's all about personal choices.

So for people like me, I'm kind of stuck in the middle because I am a social scientist first and foremost, and I have seen too much rigorous evidence. I have too much lived experience of racism to say it's all gone. My argument is that the approach that they're taking to get rid of it is actually making it worse. So yes, social media helps us get out there,

but look at the fact that social media allows us to only listen to people we agree with. We need to get a claim. We need to get a wider range of material. We need the people in the middle like me. Now, I know this sounds self-serving, but I think we need more people in the middle so that we can get people who have been indoctrinated with those, what I consider self-destructive values.

They won't listen to the opposite perspective but they may be willing to listen a little bit to someone in the middle. Hey, Constantin, how are you feeling? Good. And your mental health? I'm from Russia, we don't have mental health. Well, in the civilized world, we talk about our mental health and how we're feeling about our place in the universe.

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Yes, Trigonometry fans get special limited time promotion, 40% off premium subscription, take advantage of this amazing offer, go to Korn. come.com forward slash trigger for 40% of unlimited access to come entire library. That's come.com forward slash trigger. And it's very true what you said about, you know, being listening to someone in the middle. Isn't part of the problem, Dina, that being in the middle is actually very, very difficult because it means you, because it means you're essentially tribaless. You're not part of the tribe on the left. You're not part of the tribe on the right, which means that it goes against what we're hardwired because we want to be part of the tribe,

and it means you take flak from both sides. He's talking from personal experience there, both of us. Well, I would say this, I found it interesting because on social media, one of the ways that I started interacting with Lawrence Fox, for instance, is he made a comment about there not being racism anymore. And the difference between people who consider themselves non-woke and the woke is that I disagreed with him. And usually when I disagree with woke people,

they call me a lot of names, many of them beginning with C or N, and then they block me. Instead, he followed me, sent me a text and said, okay, show me. So when I'm dealing with people that are more conservative right now, even if I disagree with them, I'm not so summarily rejected as I am from,

the people in the progressive left, the woke people. They do not allow any dissension of any degree without complete rejection. And why do you think that is, Dina? Because it's something that I've noticed particularly. People are friends that I've got on the right. We will talk and we'll disagree and, you know, I'll be fine. And then we move on. Friends, well, I don't have any friends left on the left.

I've been summarily expelled. Well, most of them anyway. Why is it that those people on that side of the, argument are so intolerant? Because their world is intolerant, their tribe is intolerant, because people like me come along who've spent years and years being educated, how to dissect research to see whether or not it's credible. Most of what they're being told would not hold up to scrutiny. Most of the research that they're presenting to support their arguments, I turned the methodology page, and I go on social media and comment, if I had written something like this

for my doctoral dissertation, I never would have graduated. So when you're dealing with people who cannot afford to have the light shine on their beliefs, because then you see all the little critters in the middle of it. It's got maggots in it. They teach people willful blindness. That's how they have to act if they're going to keep their numbers so large. And you talk about willful blindness. Do you think that's part of the reason why the young people tend to be more woke? Is it because they're more impressionable? Is it they're more idealistic?

Or is there's something else going on? And I suppose the second part of that question is stats show that women tend to be more woke than males on the whole. Is there a reason for that as well? Well, I would say with young people, it's because the executive parts of our brain are not fully developed until our mid-20s. So we tend to see the world more in black and white before we're young. We also see ourselves as invulnerable. We see things in absolutes. We get very highly motivated by things.

Everything's emotional. That starts to dampen down by the time we get to the mid-20s and we start to see the shades of gray. Now women, one of the issues too, as much as I have issues and problems dealing with with black people around a lot of issues when I bring these things up, I also often have problems with women because women are brought up to be nice and that being nice is more important than being respected. So if something seems, you know, if you have someone, we're taught to be extremely compassionate, even at our own cost. So whenever a cause is supported by sob stories, women were often sign on, come on board full on, not asking themselves, well, wait a minute, what is the other side of the story? Is what they're saying really true? How is that going to impact people like me? How is it going to impact my children?

They're not asking any of those questions because that's not how most women are socialized and normalized. We're taught to be an easy, easy for sob stories to take advantage of. We're taught the people used to call us bleeding hearts, you know, the kind of person that anytime somebody seems sad, you side with them. Most women are socialized that way.

In fact, it's one of the reasons when I do my unmasking, the abuser workshops, I have a segment that I've had to include teaching women how to say no. Because most of the time, if the abuser is able to cry, tell a story about their hard life, make them feel like you're only picking on me because I'm whatever, the woman will back down. And I have to teach them not to do that because women are socialized differently. It's so interesting. You reminded me of one of our very first ever interviews with a guy who doesn't have much profile,

but called Jeremy Shapiro. And when we asked him our last question, which we'll ask you, which is what's the one thing we're not talking about, that we should be, he said the power of the media and the not, he wasn't talking about the like the mainstream media, just the media in general,

whether that's social media, YouTube, the mainstream media, whatever, to create impression, and ideas in people through a story. And what I think the example he gave was, even if every night for the rest of your life, CNN runs a story about a bear eating somebody, that does not mean that you are in danger of being eaten by bears

because the statistics show that bears almost bear attacks are almost non-existent. But if CNN or Fox News or both of them were still run that story every night, People are going to be terrified of bears. I remember actually doing an NLP course a long, long time ago, and the guy who was running it saying how Jaws was a great, great movie for him because suddenly people living in the sort of flyover states of America had a terrible phobia of sharks, and he was making loads of money curing it.

And so how much of this is really about the fact that we live in a technological society now where if you see one person being badly treated, then by, let's say, a black person badly treated by a police officer, we're not capable of contextualizing that with enough data and enough research and enough other stories and also understanding why police behave the way that they behave. We just go, like, I would not want that to happen to my son or to my daughter or to my brother and to my father. And therefore, I don't care about all that other stuff.

there's the narrative, you know, the police are evil, you know, this is what we need to do. How much of all of this is simply the fact that, as you talk, that primitive part of the brain just goes, well, that's why I am absolutely determined, and I'm hoping by doing publicity like this, I can get some benefactors, I can get some sponsors and support. Once people understand how our brain works and how, no matter how intellectually intelligent you are, the parts of our brain that influence our emotions and influence those primal responses have no filter and will adapt. They have been pre-programmed in our DNA to adapt. You become much more protective of what you allow in your brain. So it's something that everybody needs to know. I can explain

it to kids and they get it. And it absolutely works. But I know it's disappointing. But the first thing they told us when we got to graduate school was knowledge of a phenomenon will not make you immune to its effects. And I need to show people why that's true. Why when shows and programs and social media sites are supporting values or telling stories with values when the music has values that go against what you believe to be right and true, why you have to turn it off? why telling yourself, oh, but it's got a good beat. Or I watch that show because I like that one character. No, you can't do that. You have to protect your brain.

Is that really true, though? I mean, look, I'll be honestly. Give you an example, right? I think all of us actually would, I don't know, I don't want to slander anyone, but I'm a big fan of gangster rap, right? I've never shot up anyone. I've never sold drugs. I've like none of the things that they talk about in the rap lyrics I've ever done or been tempted to do ever

but it has a good beat to it and it's going into your mind but but I haven't done anything have I no you not yet because you're not in the circumstances but that allow that but again when you're buying music when you're supporting the music what are you supporting and what about people who are more sensitive. What about people who are in those circumstances? What about situations where a decision has to be made in a split second? It's going there none of us are immune. I know it's, it's boring to say this, but I, I don't advocate for anything I don't do myself. I am very careful about what I allow my brain to normalize. Even in programs that I like, films that I like, films I like if they are advocating for values that I don't believe in, I turn it off.

Really? I know how my brain works. My intellect, my knowledge will not protect me because I'm not in control of the majority of my brain that makes my life decisions. I'm just not. I mean, I've never heard this argument espoused. But it's now in your head and you can't get it out. Yeah, exactly.

But so where would you stand, Dina, on, it's just a message. And what about the person producing the art? What about if the person is a problematic person but produces great art? Do you still, would you say that the art and the artist is a divorce? He's a Michael Jackson fan. Yeah, basically. It gets complicated because if you really, there's a part of us that wants to like the people who produce content that we admire.

And when, for instance, when Michael Jackson had legal cases, the people who admired his music and all the thousands of fans standing out front had an influence on the jury. It's a challenge because, of course, if you support, if you go to their concerts and you buy their music, you're supporting that person's lifestyle. So it does get, I didn't say this was easy. But if we want a better world than we've got, we have some tough decisions to make. And that includes really looking at the values of what we allow in our brains. We have to just become more protective of our minds.

It's really interesting coming back to more to the context of our earlier discussion. because if you're saying that, and I guess I don't have any reason to believe it's not true, it sort of sounds true to me. Well, you kind of at this point have to switch off pretty much every Hollywood movie, pretty much all of the mainstream news. Social media. Social media, right? Like, I mean, the institutional take, and by the way, this is an issue we've been discussing on the show a lot

because, you know, if Francis and I want to have kids, this is an issue that will come up is, well, education system is completely taken over as well. So what the hell do you do? You find other members of your tribe and you get more active. I think the problem we have is the people who, and I'm going to include the two of you as members of my new tribe, the members of our tribe have been incredibly passive. And we've allowed people with other intent to influence everyone around us. And if you think it's not harmless, it will influence your buying habits,

your voting habits, whether you sit on the school board or not. I had a PAC contact me recently and asked me if I want to run for office in the States. If they come forward, I'm taking it. Because I don't have the right to preach advocacy and activity and showing people

that you have a right to question, you have a right to say no, you have a right to look at the flow on effects of what people are promoting and not put myself in the hot seat. And that includes moving to a country, which is a lot tougher than the one I'm in. I mean, the problem is, Dina, isn't the challenge that you're asking people to act against their own self-interest? No, I'm asking them to act for their self-interest. I'm asking them to think beyond today. I'm asking them

to gather all of that strength. I mean, for you Brits, you've got it. I watched so much footage of what happened during the Second World War before America came in and you were standing alone

against Nazi Germany. I've never seen such collective courage in a people in my life. You've got it. You have the courage. Now you just have to act on it. Social media allows us to find other members of this new tribe, even if they're not nearby. And that we can start not by anything extreme, but just by saying no, just by asking

questions, just by telling people, no, I won't be silenced. If what you're saying is valid, I want to see the evidence. I think that's a very powerful message. And actually, you've sort of summarize the credo of trigonometry there, really. It's about asking the questions, looking at the data, creating a community, and, you know, doing things like speaking to people like you and others about these issues to present people with the information, and they can then make up their own mind about the direction that they want to go in. So, Dina, imagine I'm not Constantine Kisten co-host of Trigonometry, but I am Constantine Kisten president of the universe, and I've just

clicked my fingers and you are all powerful and you can do whatever you want to solve all the racial tension and all the racial problems. What do you do? Talk about common humanity. Talk about what we have in common. Enjoy the differences. Hold everybody accountable for what they do. Tell people fix yourself first, you know, before you demand all of these things. other people, let's fix ourselves first. And I just want to make a brief point from everything I've studied and having lived in the UK as well as in eight states in the U.S. I've lived in Germany, France, now Australia.

Racism in the UK is not as extreme as it is in the States. And in the States, it varies depending on where you are. But when you're having people talk about how racist the UK is, It is not as racist as the U.S. because slavery wasn't such an integral part of your culture. But I think once people find something in common, once they can laugh together, once they can eat together, okay, maybe not for the English, sorry.

But everybody else. Well, we eat other people's food. That's what we do. And then we call it our own. That's why our national dish is now curry. Well, you know, I like fish and chips. So you've got that at least. But once people can get together and look at each other and stop, let's take the capital letter off of us and the capital letter off of them, make it a small letter.

And it's amazing how much we can learn from each other, how much we can enjoy each other. Let's get back to enjoying each other's company instead of seeing each other's enemies. Do you think we've gone too far down the road, though, particularly in the States we've seeing each other as enemies? No, because there are people like me. They should never let me study social psychology. That was their mistake. If I got into any position of influence, I can actually produce, I can write scripts. I've done it before. I can produce content, commercials, public service announcements that can show people, that can start telling a

different story and start undermining this divisive message that is setting us at each other as enemies. Well, I'll tell you what, I know you're looking for financial support and everything, but I think if you start putting stuff out, even just you talking at the camera and, you know, you send it to a few people, you show it to people, it will start getting spread around. And if it's good, which I'm sure will be, it will get the audience. And then the support will be there, whether the one wealthy person comes in and supports you or not. So I hope you do that. I hope you keep putting stuff out.

I am doing it. I know you are. I hope you keep going, is what I'm saying. Well, I would say thank God for YouTube. So my first video on why you're not a racist should be out within the next week or so, followed by bias isn't bigotry. Okay. So I'm trying to teach people what's going on, the message that mainstream media will not tell you so that you can't start healing from a place of being kicked constantly.

Let's stop kicking each other and start communicating. So it's a really great message and I look forward to seeing the videos and I'll be doing my best to help you promote them. But we've got one more question for you, Dina. Which is, what is the one thing we're not talking about, but we really should be? We're not talking about what we have in common. you know everything is about how you're intrinsically different from me you don't understand my world we're not looking for the commonality and and building from there and i think that's our mistake

i think that's a really good point uh and a very refreshing take on all of these things which i think is much needed uh dr dym McMillan thank you so much for coming on the show and thank you everybody for watching. We'll be back very soon with another brilliant interview like this one. All of them go out at 7pm UK time. Take care and see you soon, guys.