TRIGGERnometry - Critical Race Theory Made Me Miserable - Zandile Powell from Kidology

Episode Date: October 4, 2023

Zandile “Zee” Powell is the creator of the YouTube channel Kidology, where she makes video essays analysing modern society from a Gen Z perspective. She studied Human, Social, and Political Sciences at Cambridge University and has contributed to publications such as UnHerd. Check out Zee's Substack here: https://kidology.substack.com/ SPONSORED BY: AG1. Go to https://www.drinkAG1.com/triggernometry/ to get 5 free AG1 Travel Packs and a FREE 1 year supply of Vitamin D with your first purchase! Become a Premium Member to receive exclusive benefits https://triggernometry.supercast.com/ OR Support TRIGGERnometry Here: Bitcoin: bc1qm6vvhduc6s3rvy8u76sllmrfpynfv94qw8p8d5 Music by: Music by: Xentric | [e-mail] | https://www.xentricapc.com/ YouTube:  @xentricapc   Buy Merch Here: https://www.triggerpod.co.uk/shop/ Advertise on TRIGGERnometry: [e-mail] Join the Mailing List: https://www.triggerpod.co.uk/sign-up/ Find TRIGGERnometry on Social Media:  https://twitter.com/triggerpod https://www.facebook.com/triggerpod/ https://www.instagram.com/triggerpod/ About TRIGGERnometry:  Stand-up comedians Konstantin Kisin (@konstantinkisin) and Francis Foster (@francisjfoster) make sense of politics, economics, free speech, AI, drug policy and WW3 with the help of presidential advisors, renowned economists, award-winning journalists, controversial writers, leading scientists and notorious comedians. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I only applied to Cambridge, got into Cambridge, and I thought that was going to be the beginning of my full agency. It was actually the beginning of the end. I suddenly was exposed to sort of a culture of critical theories which told me that I was a victim and that I was at an inherent disadvantage. And that really messed with my mind. I got very depressed, wasn't antidepressants, was suicidal for my second year. Throughout my life, it was white people who cared for me. It was white people who loved me. I'd been abandoned by my black mother.

So there was an inherent contradiction in what I was being told. You're a young woman who is at Cambridge University. You get a degree from there. Your opportunities are limitless. And yet you're a victim with, I mean, it's just bollocks. Hello and welcome to Trigonometry. I'm Francis Foster. I'm Constantine.

And this is a show for you if you want honest conversations with fascinating people. A brilliant guest today is a fellow YouTuber whose channel is called Kidology. She goes by Z-Palsy. Welcome to Trigonometry. Thank you for having me. It's a real pleasure. By the way, if she looks tense, it's because we did about five attempts at the introduction and we totally ruined it.

Hello and welcome to Trigonometry. Mate, why are you laughing? I don't know. Our brilliant guest today is a fellow YouTuber who's channel. So welcome, you're probably looking at us like we don't know what we're doing, which is accurate.

Before we get into the conversation, tell everybody who are you, how are you where you are, what's been the journey through life that leads you to be sitting here talking to us? Well, I am basically a Gen Z YouTuber who makes content about, everything and anything to do with modern society, and that sometimes includes myself.

Why I'm here today, that boggles me because I cannot imagine why you'd want to speak to me. I was absolutely flattered, so thank you. But I tend to just make content that is about the issues that young people are going through, particularly with regards to relationships, modern politics, identity politics specifically, mainly because I have quite a unique upbringing and quite a, as a result, a unique perspective on, I think a lot of the contradictions about living as a modern individual in modern societies like Britain and, well, primarily the US. Well, you've got our attention already. I noticed you're fully integrated into British culture and that you were incredibly self-deprecating

to start with. But you mentioned having a unique background and you really do have a unique background. Tell everybody about that. Well, let's start all the way from the beginning. I was abandoned by my mother alongside my older brother. And we were then separated into different fostering situations. I was fostered by a white South African family of women, sort of an intergenerate. generational great-grandmother, grandmother, mother. The mother adopted me, but unfortunately she

had severe mental health issues bipolar. And so I was raised by her mother, who was a Pentecostal and was devout. And this was post-apartheid South Africa, the late 1990s, early 2000s, and she was basically believed that the Lord spoke through. her and I was sort of an example of the potential of South Africa or the potential of being a rainbow child of the Rainbow Nation and the potential that black South Africans could have if raised accordingly. So no pressure then. No, no, not really, no, no.

So I was very devout, very religious and as a result, my life was quite blissful. until it wasn't, until unfortunately she developed, or contracted, developed cancer, and we believe that God was going to heal her, obviously. Obviously, he didn't. And so unfortunately, she passed away. And I was then, I then went to boarding school in South Africa. How old were you when she passed away? I was 13, going on 14.

So, yes, yes. And this was quite a long. She was sick from when I was about nine years old until 13. So it was a very long and slow death, regrettably. But I was then in boarding school for the last year of her life. And then suddenly I was told that I'm moving to the UK to be fostered by her ex-husband, who was a 75-year-old white South African who had lived in Zimbabwe. when it was Rhodesia and he was very mournful of the good old days before the blacks came into power.

And so I moved here, I was given a day's notice and I came to live with him. First thing I was, first thing I saw going into his flat was a poster saying kill the blacks from his day serving in the Zimbabrian or Rhodesian Civil War. So, yes, we didn't get on. You're all British. That is the most understated thing I've heard in my life. You're opposed to saying kill people like me. We didn't get on.

Yes, yes. Yes, yes. I think I do commend my religious upbringing because it has made me very understanding, even though I'm not a believer now. It's made me incredibly, understanding of things that I think otherwise I wouldn't be so understanding of. So we were just from completely different worlds and it was very awkward for him to live with me and also to sort of

acknowledge that I was a part of his family. So it was quite contentious. I also did not want to be here at all and yes. So I was here. I then went to school and I found a new religion which was getting into Cambridge at any cost and I only applied to Cambridge, got into Cambridge and I thought that was going to be the beginning of my full agency. It was actually the beginning of the end and I suddenly was exposed to sort of a culture of critical theories which told me that I was a victim and that I was at an inherent disadvantage. And that really messed with my mind. I got very depressed, wasn't antidepressants, was suicidal for my second year. Yes, it wasn't going very well. But I, then after I left Cambridge, I sort of didn't know what to do.

I was meant to go to Oxford. That fell through. And so I ended up working in retail. And after working in retail, I have just been doing YouTube ever since. Yeah. Francis, may I just... One thing I was going to ask you about a victim.

It is something I talk about a lot, as you know. I mean, there's a lot of people who are not victims. In your case, there's a credible claim there that you've had a pretty rough life and you could quite easily claim to be a victim. Why was it that being told you are one through this particular lens? Why was that so distressing to you? I think it was because of who I was in the context of Cambridge. So I found that I went to Cambridge and I suddenly didn't have connections.

I didn't have friends and I had to figure that out how that was going to happen. And I was very quickly exposed to critical theory, critical race theory particularly. And the assumption that because I was black, I was therefore inevitably going to join all these black societies, which I did. But it became very apparent that I was very native African. And because of that, there was a disconnect. in terms of our morality, a disconnect in terms of how I saw myself and how they saw me. The other problem was that... Can I just stop you? Let's delve into that,

because what you just said there was so interesting to me about how you saw yourself, how they saw me, and because I was a native African, my morality was different. Let's really unpack that. What do you mean by that? I think my... In terms of being native African, I think it doesn't... When it comes to me, it doesn't really sort of pertain to sort of the stereotypical native African.

I think even in South Africa, it was very different to most black South African children because I lived and socialized exclusively with white South Africans. Poor and rich white South Africans, we sort of were very socially mobile throughout my time there. So I was very much, I saw myself as white, I really did, and I didn't really understand why other people didn't see me as white. And fortunately in South Africa, I was able to play into that very much because of how I spoke, because I'd always be hand in hand with a morbidly obese Pentecostal Christian woman. So it was okay.

But coming here and being here, it was very different in terms of how people saw me and wanted me to act, especially in relation to seeing white people as being oppressive to me, when in fact, throughout my life, it was white people who cared for me. It was white people who loved me. It was white people who gave me purpose and meaning. Never in my life did black South Africans want to foster me, wanted to adopt me. I'd been abandoned by my black mother. So there was an inherent contradiction in what I was being told, especially at university, and the fact that I was expected to very much assimilate into this narrative and into a community that really conflicted with everything that I believed and had experienced.

And because you've got quite a fast. insight, and we'll talk about the rest of what you're going to talk about in a second, into the way we perceive race. How, as an outsider's point of view, what do you think about the way we talk about race in this country, the way we perceive it, the way it's, the narratives that are propagated through our society about it? I find it's incredibly unfreeing, I think, for a lot of people. I think it's unfreeing for black people, because,

I would say in this country, there is now this very Americanized perspective that everything can be reduced to some kind of institutional or structural ill, which disproportionately affects people of colour, specifically black people. And it doesn't matter about the empirical reality of, for instance, all the black people who I knew at Cambridge were incredibly wealthy black people, some of their parents were famous, you know, they sort of were doing quite well for themselves, had gone to private school, but they were oppressed and they really lived by that identity. And it didn't correspond to what was actually going on. And so I think a consequence of that is that when you're living a fantasy,

the world around you can crumble. The real issues are just not addressed and not looked at. and the most successful in the movement of oppression and victimhood win. And so who do you mean by that? So examples or just the people who are winning with these narratives? I would say it's primarily thought leaders or so-called, quote-unquote, intellectuals. Probably, I think, the one that stands out most to me is Ibrahim X. Kendi. individuals who've made an entire career around this, I think, very pop-cultural interpretation of critical theory right now,

which has sort of really digressed from the roots of critical theory. I think it's incredibly vindictive. I think it's ultimately making a lot of people, a lot of money, including Ibrahim. He's now been signed onto ESPN. so he's doing great. And I think online, especially in the sphere that I work in, which is mainly video essays about politics, specifically US politics, it's very much dominated by a sort of subcultural subset called bread tube or cornbread tube, which have very unrealistic expectations for people and of the world. And I think because we often...

perpetually online, it's very easy to forget about everything else that is going on. And when you're making hundreds of thousands of dollars a year, you don't really have to think about sort of the reality of things. You can just live in a world of rather revelatory ideas and ideals that will never come to pass in your lifetime at least. Now, what Ibrahim X candy is just being attacked by people saying he's a racist because he's excluded people and he wasn't anti-racist. And he wasn't anti-racist enough or something. I'm not surprised. So it's the chickens that are coming home to roost. But you mentioned, you mentioned real problems get ignored when these fake narratives or whatever you want to call them are focused on. And what are the real problems?

I think right now, the greatest problem that I think underlies everything is a loss of any universal ethic or anything that holds everybody together above that of identity. I think right now we've really resorted to looking at very specific identity and almost tribalistic elements that really separate us into little groups in our liberal society. And as a result, we don't actually have a society. We don't have anything that really drives us as a people, as a collective people in, I'd say Britain and the US especially. And so I think when you are people and you don't have any allegiance to each other, any common language even, I mean, right now I think it's very clear we don't have a common language when it comes to something that should be as

basic as gender and intergenerationally especially. I think you're sort of, you're sort of, you're seeing the beginning of the end of, I think, a project in the West that has taken centuries to get to this point and is now not being realized. I don't think we sort of realize the consequences when we killed God of what we were doing. And I think nothing has necessarily replaced that execution meaningfully and spiritually for a lot of people. And yes, I think that's underlying a lot of things. Yeah. Well, we had a guest on called James Orr.

He talked about the need for something pre-political. And it seems that now we're in a place where either your ethnic identity or increasing your political identity becomes, it gives you meaning in a way that, you know, other things actually ought to do. We were talking about wokeness, anti-warkness, et cetera, before we started. And a lot of people now they're fully invested

in this worldview, which is interesting to me because while I think wokeness is really bad and I've always opposed it, I've opposed it not as an identity thing, I just think this way of doing things is wrong. But I do see that people are sort of becoming very rigid in the way that they

see their role in the world. And it happened with race and gender and all of these things. But it's also happening just with ideas, which to me is a kind of a weird place because ideas are supposed to evolve and change over time. And you're supposed to have flexibility in the way that you think about things. You're sounding very old, Mike. Yeah, well, I am. I am.

Yes, I agree. Thank you. So, yes, you were old. Forgive me. That's a good. She does think you're old. Sorry. No, I would definitely agree.

I think that intellectual culture in the West has been in decline since the 70s. So I don't only sound too much like a historian. But I do think that I think in the post-war years, it was a very interesting time in the West, in terms of existentialism, being able to replace sort of the death of gods that was so apparent after the war. And I think that really swept the US and France and parts of the UK academically. And because it was so applicable to people of all races, genders, you know, existential feminists, you know, all kinds of movements adopted this and could really see themselves in this because it was so all-encompassing and expansive.

and I think, in my opinion, since the 70s, especially since second wave feminism, early days of second wave feminism, this idea of the personal being political has taken over. And the personal, in my opinion, is never political. It's always philosophical at its root. And that's something that is very personal. and that's something that you have to take responsibility for. When the personal becomes political, suddenly all responsibility is delegated to somebody else.

It's somebody else's problem that you're oppressed. It's somebody else's problem that you can't advance, that you can't do with your life what you want to do. You can completely invert morality to serve you. And I think that's what has happened with a lot of identity, political groups and movements now. And do you think a lot of people of your generation buy into that idea, the fact that, you know, the personal is political and it's not their fault, they're not doing what they want because the patriarchy or whoever it is is stopping them from doing so? Yes, I've been cancelled so many times for saying just that. If I say anything like that, because there's no conception, especially with Gen Z and I'd say millennials as well. But with Gen Z, there's absolutely no... idea in how to fathom your identity beyond that of it being a political statement and being

something that other people have to recognize and other people have to do something about. They have to change their actions in relation to how you identify and you should be able to engage with the world and walk in the world safely, securely and in the exact way that you envisage and see and ultimately have no responsibility. So the world, just to translate what you're saying into so that I understand a better, simpler language. What you're saying is essentially people carry an idea of how the world is supposed to adjust to them. Yes, yes, as opposed to. But isn't, I understand how stupid that is at an intellectual level,

but at a practical level, are you not going to be slapped in the face by reality on a daily basis if you attempt to do this? Yes, you are. And that's why I think a lot of people retreat to the internet. and especially in my generation, because the internet allows you to live in the delusion that the world can change. And also it means that when you go into the world

and it doesn't conform to what you want it to be, you get very depressed, mental health issues arise. Everything seems a lot worse than it actually is. And I definitely see that. as a big problem with my generation. Everything is a lot worse than it is about things that actually are not as important as the things that actually are a problem

that can be and ought to be addressed and which I think we can all, or ought to all agree on if we actually cared about those things, yeah. We'll be back with Z in one minute. First, we want to talk to you about the sponsors of today's episode, AG1. We take AG1 to stay healthy and stay off illness whenever our schedule gets really busy. We used it on our last America tour where we were constantly on the move, living out of a bag and working every day.

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That's drinkag1.com slash trigonometry to claim this special offer. It sounds just incredibly sad because you're denying that you have agency in the world. And that's so disempowering. How are you going to improve yourself? How are you going to build a career? How are you going to get married or do whatever it is that you want to do if you don't believe that you have agency? You're literally powerless. Yes.

Yes. Yes. And I definitely, especially when I was at university, I definitely felt that and I experienced that I was in despair, like constant despair for days. And I didn't know what to do with myself. I didn't know how I was going to navigate the world because what was the point? What's the point in trying to do things when inevitably I'm going to fail because I'm black? and the systems and institutions are against me. And you end up fulfilling that prophecy just in yourself. And yes, yes. But that's so remarkable because you're a young woman who is at Cambridge University, one of the best universities in the world. You get a degree from there. Your opportunities are limitless.

You can pretty much go into any industry you want, any country you want, and yet you're a victim with... I mean, it's just bollocks. Yes. Technical term. Yeah. Yes, yes. It definitely is bollocks. And it was so unhealthy, especially for me, as somebody who didn't get...

get on with the black people who I was in association with, and they didn't like me as well. It wasn't just one-sided, but I was expected to somehow be an allegiance with these people who I didn't have any personal affinity with, and then not with white people who I actually culturally had a lot more in common with, sort of was able to, it just made a lot more sense to me. And the consequence of that is that I was called racist and sort of self-hating black, which is something that I'm always accused of. And I think because people, especially my generation, care a lot about what everybody else thinks a lot. Even though it's all about sort of me, me, me, me, me, it's always with the lens of somebody else and everybody else.

Oh, but narcissism always needs the supply. Yes, yes. needs the supply. Yes. That's the good stuff. Definitely. Definitely. Yeah.

So I'm curious how then, I mean, it's clear you're a very independently minded person and you think for yourself, blah, blah, blah. But also, how do you get out of that despair once you find yourself in that situation, as you were at Cambridge, where you sort of feel out of place and people are projecting their things onto you, etc. Yes. Well, I think the thing with the victimhood mindset, I guess I can just call it, is that usually you find some kind of power in it because people recognize your victimhood and you find a community or a tribe and then, you know, you feel good about yourselves. I didn't find that community because I wasn't accepted by the black people that I was meant to be

in tribal allegiance with. And that was very reminiscent of my experience back in South Africa. And so I think because I didn't find the kind of very fake, emancipation through being a victim that most people who rarely subscribe to it do, I wasn't getting that cathartic feeling from it. And I think the sort of really important thing was that I applied to Oxford to do an MA and I didn't think about the logistics of it. I didn't think that I had to somehow have £60,000 to do an MA. I thought it was just going to happen because I was black.

And so obviously, I'm not even kidding. I did. I really did. I couldn't fathom how it wasn't going to happen. I thought it was going to happen. I think because I was very deluded as an undergraduate that I'd made it to Cambridge. I got in. Then I had this whole idea of being a victim.

And so I was like, oh, that's why I got in because, you know, they needed to fill quotas and, you know, it was like that. And so obviously Oxford was going to accept me and then pay for me. They accepted me but didn't pay for me. So suddenly I couldn't go. And I had no plans at all because my entire mindset was I'm going to be an academic. I'm just going to be a political philosopher. That's all I'm going to do.

And lo and behold, the world doesn't work like that. And so I was alone. I had no money. I didn't know what to do. I had no plans. And I was applying for jobs everywhere. Obviously, I'd done no work experience while I was at uni because, you know, oppression. You were going to be a political philosopher.

So, yes, and the only job I got was working at a grocery store in Cambridge. And so I spent a few years there. And that was very important for me, especially living in Cambridge, not as a student, but as somebody with, for Cambridge working class, all of whom were white as well, which was very, I had to really introspect about my oppression. And they didn't care that I'd gone to Cambridge, and I had to work to actually get recognition, to actually advance. Not that I advanced very far. I wasn't terribly good at my job, mainly just socialize with people, but it was very good, because I made so many friends, work friends, with people who were mainly white, conservative

gen X's who I worked with. And they became like my default family. And it was very important for me to actually see that and to experience the reality of people who live in Cambridge, who aren't like rich students, cycling around everywhere, thinking that they rule the world. And that really got me out of, not just myself, but out of my depression, definitely. Yeah. And how did, when they, so I took it, what did you do at Cambridge? What was your degree in? I did human social and political sciences, but I was the one black girl who decided to do early modern political philosophy. So, yes. So when they were teaching, I have no problem with the teaching of critical race theory in the way that I have no problem with the teaching of Marxism.

I do have a real problem with them going, this is how the world is, because that to me is not education, that's indoctrination. So I guess my question is, how did they teach CRT, critical race theory? Did they present it as this is the way the world is? Was it slipped in through the back door? How did it work? Well, it was a very interesting time because it was sort of, of, I feel that the department was on sort of the threshold of trying to implement these

dramatic changes, but we were still on the old curriculum. And so there was a lot of pushback whilst things were being taught by groups that were decolonized the course or the curriculum and a lot of momentum for these things. And I got involved in that in my first and second year. and in my third year, I gave up on that, and I decided, I can't pretend. I love Thomas Hobbes and old dead white men. I'm going to focus on that. But it was taught in my second year, based on two papers that I did, it was taught as if there wasn't really an alternative.

You were taught about these theories, about sort of the founding fathers. You were taught about sort of, you know, how things had happened. but this was the old way. And we're teaching you this because we are in transition to the new way of what the course is going to be in future years. And so we were sort of exposed to some of that, some new authors who are trickling in. But I didn't continue in my third year, sort of down that path. I completely regressed back to sort of the very, very traditional. Cambridge education. And Zee, if you were trying to explain CRT to one of your retail, grocery store, workmates,

what would you say that you were being taught? I would say that I was being taught that because you, my colleague, are white, and I'm black, you have privilege that I can only dream of. and because of that, you need to alter your ways, alter your behaviour, be more conscious and aware of the things that you do and say to me and to other people who look like me and how you engage with us in the world, because a lot of what you do will be interpreted as microaggressions or taking for granted the advantages that you have. So you assuming, I don't know, that I know how to fold jeans, right? But I don't because I've never worn jeans. I don't know. Something like that.

Just something very like minuscule, something that would really, really disrupt our friendship, I would say. You know what's interesting? we kind of have this situation that's happened in my lifetime where we've gone from pathologizing difference. Difference was bad. You know, if you stand out, you're bad. To now we're almost at a point, we then went to a point where difference was,

diversity is our strength, celebrate this, celebrate difference, celebrate this. To almost now where, like, difference is even impossible to discuss in the, that sort of context, right? So in the past, it might have been the case of, oh, so you're from South Africa. Well, I'm from Russia. And we would exchange our visions of the world, how we see the world, our experiences, et cetera. Whereas now it's like almost, well, I best not exchange with you any ideas about how different things are, because I might offend you by not appreciating

your particular experience of the world. It's an interesting transformation, don't you think? Yes, yes. I think it's a very regressive transformation. I think it's really... That's what I meant. Yes, yes. I think it's undermined our curiosity and other people. And with that, I think a lot of assumptions are made. A lot of people then fall into stereotypes and you miss so much potential, I think, especially for things that are very important, like to me, such as intellectual curiosity and advancing ideas that can really unite people, I think it's really undermined our potential as human beings now and really feeds into

sort of this age that we live in of, I think a lot of decadence, a lot of decadent thinking about how we are entitled to a lot of things to a lot of people who actually, don't conform to our little boxed idea of who they are and what they are. Z, so there's a lot of people like me and others, you know, that would say problematic boomers, probably is what you think. You're a millennial, mate. Well, not to them, I'm not, I'm a boomer, who have a, how can I put it,

uncharitable view of the younger generations. But I do feel a real empathy. for your generation, because the way the internet has been, you've only known the age of the internet, really, and the effect that it's had on you. So let's discuss what challenges are your generation facing? And what are the problems? And how are they manifesting?

Well, I think the biggest problem, I would say, is that we don't have faith or belief in the state. We don't have faith or belief in the actual political processes around us of government. We've really retreated into only believing in politics that pertains to identity and very minuscule things. And I think because of that, the things that we do suffer with that I think really sort of build up and lead to a lot of our problems, such as in the UK, I would say, housing crisis is quite a big thing that inevitably is going to. affect young people, Gen Z at some point. I think because of that and because we aren't as politically invested in what is going on policy-wise, I think that is a problem. That's a big problem. And then I think it works vice versa. I think government, especially in the UK,

doesn't have much interest in young people. We don't have any political power. We don't own property. A lot of you don't vote. Yes, yes, yes. I think it's a two-way relationship of distrust and disinterest. And I think once that's sorted out, if it is, I have faith that it can be. I think a lot has to change, but I do have faith in younger generations. I think in the next 10 or so years. I think once a lot of this, even now online, I'm starting to see that a lot of people are becoming quite disenchanted that the promises of this particular path towards finding ourselves through our identities, that it's not working and that things aren't really being realized in society in the way that we imagined, especially with everybody recognizing our identities,

our ideas about the world and what should happen with the world. Yeah. The thing that worries me, Z, is that you as a generation are very progressive, whatever way you want to talk about it. She gave a little interesting smile. Do you agree with that assessment or not? That my generation has worked. Yeah.

Oh, yes, definitely. Okay, cool. Okay. What worries me is that the generation who come after you, are not going to be. And in fact, there's going to be a backlash. And what worries me is that the backlash ain't going to be pretty. The girls, by the way, sorry to interject, just some data.

The girls are incredibly woke. The boys, not so much. Yes. And to be fair, I do think that that is going to be what's going to stifle the backlash. I think in the same way that woke hasn't worked out because it's based on a theory or a pseudo philosophy that is very particular to very certain people

and necessarily has to have people who you are against, the anti-works, because there isn't sort of a united front or sort of everybody believes in this or has the same language and understanding of things. I think because everything's so fragmented, it can't go as far as it otherwise would. I think with the backlash, which I would say is more so in, I think things happen in the US and then sort of trickle down here.

I would say in the US it's happening now, especially online with, I say, far right thinking. I'm just thinking of an intellectual online who's a far right thinker called Bronze Age Pervert. I think the problem was sort of this. Great name. Why don't we call ourselves that? Yes, he's got a very devout following of young people, especially young men, understandably.

But it's very much based in a particular kind of identity and philosophy of going back to the ancients and this idea that our enemy is, of course, young woman and woman. who need to be subjugated. And I think any idea that sort of involves subjugating of another group of people is not going to go very far for very long. So I think it's inevitably going to happen. The pendulum is going to swing. But I don't think it's going to swing in such a dramatic way that it's actually going to do anything.

What you're saying is young boys desired to get laid is going to be, he's going to triumph over whatever bigoted ideas they've been told on the internet. Yes. Yeah. That makes sense. You know what? I've always said this, and this is true of various forms of feminism, and it's true of all sorts of red pill people and whatever.

Any ideology that seeks to divide men and women is always going to fail. And it's just because you can't override that very basic thing that exists between men and women, which is a force of attraction that's way stronger than any of this bullshit. Hey, guys, trigonometry needs your help. We took a big risk creating the show. And for us to keep doing the incredible work that you all love, we need your support. That's the only way we're going to stay independent and create content that you won't be able to find anywhere else. There is no other podcast where you'll hear interviews with

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I'm curious because men and women is an interesting subject that you talk about it in your videos as well. What's going on in that world that you want to talk to us about? I think men and women today are so disconnected and in such different worlds that we have no ability to do the thing that is so important to all relationships, I think, which is understanding and empathy and forgiveness. We are incredibly selfish, and because of that, we are not. finding the relationships which we want. So there's this contradiction that men and women are living with. I think women are handling it a lot better than men.

Young women are handling it a lot better than young men. How so? Well, I think because this is the age, I think, of women finding themselves, finding some form of at least political agency, there's a lot more definitions of what it means to be a woman now. It's really expanded, whereas for men, the idea of being a man and masculinity, not only has it not expanded and diversified, masculinity is toxic now.

But also there is no healthy option. It's like being a man's toxic, but if you want to be a good man, well, be like a woman. Yeah. Basically, and it's like, I'm not sure that's going to work. Yes, you know, talk about your feelings and be emotional. It does not work for men. No, no, no, it really doesn't.

And I think, especially now, at least since the 1950s, sort of the language of psychology has really taken over in workplaces. And now, especially on the internet, everybody's, you know, toxic boundaries, all these sorts of things, all this sort of language and pop psychology that I think really resonates with a lot of women and sort of how we experience the world. and not so much with men who understandably feel a lot of resentment. And I think because there is just such a lack of empathy on both sides now, I think just our society generally has become a lot less empathetic,

and I think it's just trickled down to younger people, that we, especially women, don't feel that they need men, as much or as readily. And I think men are also very impatient when it comes to women, when it comes to relationships, when it comes to doing everything that they think that they ought to do by a certain age, sort of by their mid-20s, they sort of think that they're meant to be where their fathers and grandfathers were with a wife, a home, one kid on the way at least, and that's obviously not happening. Things are happening a lot later. And I've found that online young men don't appreciate that

and are unable to appreciate that and are also experiencing a crisis of their own identity. And nobody cares, at least not really. And there's nobody to sort of guide them exactly. Well, no, no, no, there's Andrew Tay. You'll guide you. No problem. All these people, but you see, I'm not saying, that in approval, Andrew Tate one bit, what I'm saying is something else, which is when you don't have healthy role models, this is what's going to come up. That's my point. Yes, yes. Men definitely look for gods and without God, well, then you have to find them. Men look for role models and men look for inspiration and men look for motivation because men want status, power, money, influence, whatever, all of that. And if there's no healthy way of doing that, they're going to look

And the best example of this is what's happening in the city. When you have young boys without role models, they are going to look to the gang members for that. So, you know, Andrew Tay, we always say this, Andrew Tay is a symptom. He's not a problem itself. He's a symptom of the problem. Oh, yes, there's going to be another Andrew Tate. There'll be loads of them. There'll be loads of them.

And they'll carry on happening until men have a healthy way of being men in society. Mm-hmm. Yes. Yeah. And for women, they face it. really, really challenging times. Because if you look at social media, Instagram, I mean, that's just a way designed to make women feel miserable about themselves, their bodies and their lives, isn't it? Definitely. Definitely. Yes. I think the worst thing that could have ever happened

to young girls is Instagram. I think it's terrible. It has caused so many mental health issues, especially in this country, for young girls, especially during the pandemic. So, So, yes, I think being a woman now and being a young woman is very difficult, especially in relation to a lot of the narrative online with these young male thought leaders who sort of promotes this masculinity that really depends on hating young woman or seeing them as objects, which then really sort of reduces everything that young women are told about, especially now, about sort of, you know, pursuing a career working and you do that, but then online, especially you're demonised for doing that because you're not having children and you're not being

the stereotypical housewife of the 50s. So yes, I think it's, I think even though there's more options of how to be a woman for woman, it's very hard to not care about what everybody else thinks you should be. And women really take that a lot more to heart than I would say men do, especially young woman. I think it definitely, I've noticed because I have friends who are a lot older, female friends, it definitely over time it changes, but it is very much a process of becoming a woman. And I think right now, with our age where everyone is so impatient, We're very, very lazy. Everything is on demand.

I think woman and men both expect of each other to have it all sorted out or figured out. He has to be making 200K a year already. She has to look like a bombshell and have plastic surgery already and somehow pop out like five babies for me and still look hot. And that obviously when you have just fantasies of people, reality is going to seem absolutely terrible. And so I think that's really, there's a disenchantment of young people and a disenchantment and a disappointment with each other and what's on offer

of the opposite sex, especially. Is this the reason why so many women now are having plastic surgery and they're having Botox in their early 20s and lip fillers and all the rest of it? Yes, I definitely say that's the reason. And I definitely think that it's trendy. I think trends now have sort of become many religions of their own. I think it's something to like follow for a time and then the next thing comes. So it's getting a BBL or lip filler nose job.

They sort of come in waves. And I think it's nice to feel a part of something. And so a lot of women do these things. But also obviously to try and look better than the next. person on social media to improve upon yourself, to sort of work on yourself. We sort of, I think, have become very desensitized from our human condition physically and anatomically. And we sort of just see ourselves as sort of things to enhance. And that that's somehow going to make us feel better emotionally and psychologically, which most of the time it doesn't.

It's so interesting that you say that, you know, that we're looking for happiness, all of us, but what you're really saying is we're just looking for it in the complete wrong place. And that's really sad because it just means that people are miserable. Yes, yes. But the alternative is being brave and accepting your fate as a human being and accepting how tragic the human condition is. And that's very scary when, I would say there isn't the hope for salvation on the other side. It's sort of you've only got this life now and you want to make the best of it. And so it's like live fast, die young.

Like who cares? It's very much, you know, I'm going to be the best version of myself. But that's a good thing. Being the best version of yourself is a good thing. It depends on what you mean by best. If having bigger boobs makes you the best version of yourself, then you've got a problem. You know, the idea, I'm not a believer either, I struggle with it. But anyway, you know, this idea that life is finite can be a hugely empowering thing

because it laser focuses your mind on like, I've only got one life, I'm only living this one, I'm never going to be here again. So I might as well, be honest, be brave, say what I mean, ask the question that no one wants to, whatever it is, right, in this context. It can be very empowering. but if what the best means is that you're liked or more to the case, your photo is liked,

then let's fuck around with the photo, make it look perfect. That's the best version of me. So I think part of the problem you're talking about is our definition of what the best version of you is has changed. Has changed. And the weird thing is, what I find strange is that maybe it's because my generation,

millennials, we'll say broadly, although I'm an older millennial, it's like we were told, you know, have a family, do this, get married, buy a house, buy all of this, and we chafed against that, right? And so your generation, no one even tries to tell you anything, I think. No one tries to be like, do this, do that. Even though actually, I wish my generation had been not told in forceful terms, do this with, you know, with the jabbing finger. but more like, you know, life is about certain things. It's about having meaning and purpose in your life. Now, what do you think is going to give you that?

Well, part of that is going to be a fulfilling career, but part of that is going to be the people around you. And it may not be a wife and child, although probably will be, but it may not be that. But it's going to be the meaningful connections you have with other people around you. And we were talking before we started, you know, we were joking around about what a post-woke world looks like. That's what I think it looks like.

It's a world in which you don't have crusty conservatives telling young people, well, this is how you must live your life. But it is a world in which young people do have access to the wisdom of generations. Yes, definitely. And the wisdom of generations is basically what I've just said, which is your life is about meaning and purpose, and it's about the people around you that you love and love you. That's it.

Right. It's pretty simple. And every generation eventually comes there, just a question of how long it takes you to get there. And that's what I wonder, and I'm curious to hear your take, is how do we get to that point? How do we get to the point where younger people have access to that wisdom without feeling like it's being rammed down their throat by old people that they can't relate to? It's a very interesting question. I would say from my experience, the worst thing that I experience is when I would say, for instance, for instance,

older feminists online tell me that my life is empty and that I'm unhappy because I'm, I don't have children or I'm not married. And it's interesting because these are feminists who are sort of a new cohort of feminists who are anti-progressive feminists. People like Louise Perry and Merri Harrington who we've had on the show. Yes. Yes. Who we love by the way. Oh yes. And we love you too, but we love them. We love everybody. Yes, likewise, likewise. But I don't think Louise O'Mary would ever say you're not happy because you're not married? Yes, yes. I wouldn't say that in their work,

but when it comes to Twitter, for instance, which I think is the place where most young people engage with this discourse. Yes, yes. And I think on Twitter people do say things that make you just want to grate your eyeballs. Yes. You remember it's Twitter, though, right? I do, yes, yes. But I think a lot of young people don't realize that it's just Twitter.

Twitter is sort of somebody described it as the marketplace of ideas now, and that was quite horrifying. But I think a lot of young people do actually see it as a place where real things happen. And politicians obviously see the potential of Twitter somehow. But I think a lot of how we engage, I think there just is such a lack of understanding, I would say, with older generations of how. how different the world is growing up and being young today. Let's change that. What are the differences that they don't get about your generation? That we're doing things just exactly how they do.

We are being as stupid as they were, except we have phones and smartphones, and so we put it out to the world. So it's not just our closest friends who see how stupid we are. It's everybody in the world, and everybody then judges you. You go viral and your life is ruined,

or you go viral and like, you know, you're open and only fans. So it's a very different way of growing up and sort of being exposed to not just a small group of people, but to a whole world of people. I think when it comes to, for instance, relationships as well, I think older generations tend to see dating apps as, well, well, there's so many more people now. that you have just, you know, the pick of the bunch. So why is it so hard for you to find somebody? Why is it so hard for you to, you know, find the perfect person?

And I think there is often just, it feels quite condescending a lot of the time, sort of when older generations engage with younger generations. And as a result, younger generations are not interested in older generations. And I do think that our intergenerational divide is a very negative thing. I think it's interesting comparing extended families or cultures where there's very strong extended familial bonds like in the Jewish community or in the South Asian community in the UK, especially, sort of looking at how that unfolds relative to the rest of the British population. So I do think we're speaking different languages. and because everybody now, not just young people, I think it is specifically a problem with young people,

but I think everybody now thinks that they're an expert. And because of that, there's no relinquishing, there's no stepping back, listening to sympathising with or trying to empathise with especially young people. I'll hear so many conservatives like Candice Owens saying, You know, when I was 24, I was doing such stupid things. But then she'll say that young men shouldn't marry a 24-year-old woman because she spent her day making Shukhā and not going out and getting married and popping out a baby.

So it's, I think there's just contradictions that now with young people being so better educated than ever before, but also being very, very stupid at the same time. but thinking they know everything and then having older generations who are actually just as messed up have a lot of problems. I mean, boomers divorce rates are sort of quite tulling of I think a lot of issues there as well.

Yeah, I think we just don't speak the same language and I think we just, nobody is extending the olive branch to the other. Well, we've extended it to you, two boomers, invited you on the show. Here we are. Oh yeah, thank you. Thank you so much. No, no, that's not what I meant. What I'm saying is I'm keen to foster dialogue, actually. I think it's very important.

I think it's important that people from different groups and backgrounds and whatever talk to each other and understand where everybody's coming from. And I think, you know, Francis, I have a lot less empathy just by nature. I'm not a very empathetic person. But I think it's not easy. I can't imagine growing up. I can't imagine not growing up. I can't imagine not growing up. I'm trying to, basically growing up in a world in which the internet exists is not something I experienced. And compared to what people are experiencing now, I think that was bliss. Yeah. I really do. Definitely. And I'm also, for my generation, an exception, because in South Africa, I didn't have internet or a phone. So when I came here, suddenly this whole world opened up to me. And so I don't have sort of a whole catalogue of my stupidity.

on the internet. And so I couldn't imagine what it would have been like to have been exposed to Instagram, to YouTube, to all of those things, to TikTok now. And also, you sort of have to go along with it, especially as a young person in order to be a part of something, in order not to miss out on everything that's going on. I think everything is a lot of young people's sort of actions are driven by fear ultimately, fear of just fear of not knowing what's going on, fear of being left behind, of not fitting in, but also of being too normal that you sort of fade into oblivion, especially online. So, yeah. It's been a wonderful conversation. Thank you so much for coming on the show. Before we move on to our section with locals and the questions that they're going to ask,

which only they get to see, we'll finish with our final question, which is what's the one thing we're not talking about as a society that we really should be? I think we're not talking enough about the need for, I would say, an intellectual movement that isn't based on identity, something that really is all-encompassing of all people. I think we focus way too much on the wrongdoings of people's sort of actions, and I think we've really fallen out of touch with, I think, one of the most important things, in my opinion, which is philosophy and the importance of philosophy and learning and understanding yourself through the ideas of other people throughout the ages.

I think young people really need to be reading more philosophy. And so I think that is one thing we're not really talking about, I think, definitely. You're going to struggle with that. Yeah. You're going to struggle with that. Most people aren't going to read philosophy, which is where we come back to the idea of religion. Some people just want the commandments. They don't want the book.

You know, I've been thinking about that a lot myself. Philosophy is great. It really is fascinating. It's interesting. But I don't know that all of this gets sorted by people reading more philosophy. I think it's a start. I think this all takes a lot of time and I think patience is the most important thing

that we really do lack now in all spheres. I think we want quick-fix solutions to a lot of things and I think we need to go back and we need to understand why we are, where we are. And that's going to take a long time and a lot of patience and a lot of forgiveness of other people.

And yes, it's going to be challenging, but it will be right. worth it at the end. I have hope, but we'll see. We will see. Before we head over your YouTube channels, Kodology, people should check it out. And of course, I want to ask you actually, because we've talked very briefly about woke and anti-woke, and I have a sense you have some interesting opinions about that. So I will ask you about that, but on locals, head on over there and we'll continue the conversation, including asking your questions. She describes herself as a Cell, female in cell.

Is that true? Yeah. Okay. Yes. What the fuck are you talking about?