TRIGGERnometry - Darren Grimes Speaks Out on Police Investigation

Episode Date: October 12, 2020

Conservative commentator Darren Grimes is being investigated by the Police for words that someone else said in an interview on his podcast.   Support TRIGGERnometry: Paypal: https://bit.ly/2Tnz8yq https://www.subscribestar.com/triggernometry https://www.patreon.com/triggerpod Find TRIGGERnometry on Social Media:  https://twitter.com/triggerpod https://www.facebook.com/triggerpod https://www.instagram.com/triggerpod About TRIGGERnometry:  Stand-up comedians Konstantin Kisin (@konstantinkisin) and Francis Foster (@francisjfoster) make sense of politics, economics, free speech, AI, drug policy and WW3 with the help of presidential advisors, renowned economists, award-winning journalists, controversial writers, leading scientists and notorious comedians. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

How many discounts does USAA auto insurance offer? Too many to say here. Multi-vehicle discount. Safe driver discount. New vehicle discount. Storage discount. How many discounts will you stack up? Tap the banner or visit usa.com slash auto discounts. Restrictions apply. Hello and welcome to Trigonometry. I'm Francis Foster. I'm Constantine Kisham. And this is a show for you if you want honest conversations with fascinating people. I don't know that it gets any more fascinating than the guest. we have for you today. He's a conservative commentator who's currently being investigated by

the Metropolitan Police for an interview he did with someone else for words that that someone else said. Dan Grimes, welcome to Trigonometry. Thank you so much for having us. I'm a massive fan of the show, so it's an honor. It's very kind of you to say, and it's a pleasure to have you here, though I think we'd all wish the circumstances were slightly different. Quite, yes. I wish you were getting this on for me views and not for the fact that I've been investigated by the coppers, Well, your views are very problematic, apparently, or your lack of them in that particular instance. But look, before we get into it, I think a lot of people who will be watching this and listen to this will care very deeply about freedom of speech. But you'll be interesting just for people who may be not familiar with your background to tell everybody who are you, how are you where you are, what has been the journey that leads you to this very strange situation here.

Well, it's a bit of a roller coaster, to be honest. I'm from County Durham, a single parent family. I wasn't from a political household at all. Actually, my family grew up with Channel 4 News on in the background, so it's an absolute wonder, I'm not a communist. But I, as I say, I wasn't political remotely. I went into hairdresser and after school. I qualified as a hairdresser.

And then after that, after gaining some confidence and experience, I was actually quite badly bullied at school for being gay, essentially, in an ex-mining community. And that had a really profound impact upon my confidence. So hairdressing, and I get a lot of sneering on Twitter when people become aware of this, how dare he have an opinion on politics when he trained to become a hairdresser. And actually, I'm so grateful that I did that because it really did give me the confidence and the ability to actually speak to people, for one. The idea that I could be sat doing an interview like this

with the two of you right now would be absolutely mad. I would tell you to go sling your hook because you're clearly off your rocker. And I went off to Brighton University after that, and I did fashion and business studies. Again, a source of much contention with Twitter. They can't stand the fact that someone would have right-of-center views who did these things, which are traditionally aligned with the left, you know, a creative degree

at Brighton University. I campaigned to leave the EU whilst at Brighton. How did that go down? Oh, someone actually spat in my face at one point on the street in Brighton. It was quite something. So that gave us a bit of fortitude, I think, as well as far as campaigners concerned. After, so actually, I should go back ever so slightly. Whilst at Brighton, I was a Liberal Democrat. and I campaigned and ran the digital side of Norman Lamb's leadership campaign. Wow. Yeah.

And that was my first real foray sort of footsteps into politics. And I sort of, I developed the bug at that point. I was quite interested in the coalition government, supportive of same-sex marriage. That was the first bill I followed through both houses of parliament. And from then, I think I just became really interested in it. And I think the reason I joined the Lib Dems ultimately was because I thought, right, my mother is somewhere to the right of Attila the Hun. So this must mean that I am a liberal because I disagree with my mother. And actually it transpires we agree on quite aloft.

And that was just a sort of young person rebelling against their parents' politics. So you're not to the right of Attila. I'm not to the right of Attila. I'm not to the right of Taylor. I'm not. Well, perhaps. Big fan of his policies. Yeah.

In the eyes of many liberals as well. In the eyes of them, yes, I absolutely would be, definitely. But after the Norman lost the leadership, I left the Liberal Democrats. I thought I can't really support a social Democrat like Tim Farron, who did win the leadership. Now, at that point, whilst I was a Lib Dem, I've always known that I am a traditional liberal in the sense of classically liberal. Now, I have, as I get old, moved more conservative. That's absolutely true in the party sense and in the traditional philosophical sense. And I left the Lib Dems and a guy who worked at Vote Leave said,

you should set up a campaign called Liberal Leave. And I said, I'm sorry, mate. I've actually, you know, I've left the Lib Dems. I'm not, I can't do that anymore. And we said, I were goodbyes. And a mate of mine said, well, why don't you set up a campaign which can actually put across that classically liberal case for Brexit? Because no one's going to be making that argument. You know, vote leave are very much going to be the anti-immigration argument and not really talk about the benefits from a classically liberal point of view and really make the case that the European Union has not been a vessel for classical liberalism.

and actually for a lot of people, ante it. So I set up a campaign called Believe. And that was an explosion, really, of doing media, really thrown in at the deep end. And, you know, I definitely, as I say, do not have a background in politics. So that was a bit sort of frightening. I'm not going to lie. You know, I was in the green room on the night of the referendum itself at the BBC.

Probably the last time I'll get an invitation to do anything like that with the BBC. But after that referendum, my life just changed beyond all recognition, really. I really did experience what it's like to, I guess, really take the full fire of those who couldn't stand the fact that Leave had won the referendum. And for Darren, I think, for all the reasons I said out earlier, you know, I am gay. I'm from a working class background. I do, I did hairdressing. I did a degree, well, dropped out of a degree, but enrolled in a degree that was creative industries. And for all of those reasons, I think I do inspire a unique hatred from certain pockets of the liberal left. because I should be in their arena. You know, I really should be a product of the left. But as we've seen with the 2019 general election result, a lot of people have said,

and actually I don't belong to you, sling your hook. So that's where I am now. After the referendum and everything kicked off, I worked for Brexit Central for a couple of years. I then went on to the Institute of Economic Affairs for a couple of years. I know you've had a few people that work there from interviewed on the show who are fantastic, love them at pieces. That gave me more of a grounding in an understanding of my own views.

And then I set up my channel called Reason. And it's been fun, shall be said. But before we touch on that, you've obviously been no stranger to controversy. It's not just a Brexit thing, but you got investigated by the Electoral Commission four times? Three times. Oh, there we go. Yeah. Changes everything.

Exactly. Exactly. So the first time was a month after the referendum. And they said, listen, you received all of this money from, well, actually, I should explain what actually happened during the referendum. So a month before, B leave, Vote Leave had reached this amount of spend, the maximum spend that they could, they were permitted to actually spend in the EU referendum. And they thought, right, are there any competent campaigns out there that were no, that were like, who could benefit from a donation? Now, they sought permission from the Electoral Commission and they received advice that said Fish and for Leave had received money for Flotillas. Do you remember Nigel Farage's Fishing for Leave event down the Thames when he was with Kate Howie?

do you remember this? And Richard Branson had got in hot water because he was sticking his finger up at fishermen. And they had received advice that said, well, Fish and for Leave received donations for that event. So campaigns can make campaign to campaign donations. So I thought, right, well, if it's tickety-boo with the regulator, crack on. Of course I want to be able for people to see my work. It was the first time I was really producing political video content and graphics, animated graphics. And I thought, well, if I can put money behind it, definitely.

I'm all for that. So vote leave made a donation to my campaign. It was £625,000. The limit was £700,000 that an individual campaign could spend. That wasn't the registered designated campaign, the official designated campaign, rather. So I did that. and Leave won the referendum. A month later, BuzzFeed email.

Great, yeah. Great journalism. Bastion of journalism. And Buzzfeed say, we found out that you received a donation from Vote Leave. I thought, what do you mean? Found out, you've gone on the Electoral Commission's website. You've looked at the reported donations, which are obviously, they have to be posted on the Electoral Commission's website.

website because it's regulated. And I thought you're making out, like you've uncovered some deep, deep, dark secrets when actually all you've done is gone on a website and look at Belief's donations. So I didn't really think anything of it, but it was the first time I'd been investigated by any journalist. So the Electoral Commission opened an investigation after BuzzFeed posted their story in the August of 2016. It feels like a bloody life. time ago now, I'll tell you. And they found no wrongdoing. So I thought, right, hunky dory. This was to become a vicious cycle. This was to become a cycle that I would have to endure time and time again where you have that initial anxiety and you think, uh-oh, what's going to happen here? I come from a background in which I have very limited financial means. You know, I don't have mummy and daddy that can introduce me to their lawyer friends and get me out of this mess. I have to fight it myself. And a few, it would have been in the 2017. I can't remember the exact date, but 2017, they come back for a second bite of the cherry. Same issue. So

they kept investigating the same issue. It was the same issue. Yeah. By this point, vote leave had published their accounts. So the official designated campaign, and the other campaigners as well, including Britain Stronger in Europe, posted their donations and their expenditure. So by this point, all of the, everything's on the table, which you might argue the electoral commission should have waited till that point really to open an investigation at all instead of just jumping when BuzzFeed tell them to. But anyway, putting that to one side, they said the same thing again. Now to say here, me lord, go away, journalists, guardian. BuzzFeed, stop rubbing your hands with glee.

You know, the referendum's not going to be overturned on this. So they went away. And now, Jolian Maum-C of Foxkilling thing, he got involved. He judicially reviewed with his good law project the Electoral Commission's second decision. And he said, how can they possibly find that there's nothing to see here?

So his judicial review forced, I say forced, the Electoral Commission took it upon themselves, in my eyes, to become part of the FBPE mob. And for those that don't know, watching this, FBPEA lot of followback pro Europe. It's a Twitter clique, basically. I'm no idea what it's mutated into now that we've actually left the EU and it's quite clear that we're not going back in, thank God. Suffice to say, they probably all love us. They'll be delighted. They'll be watching right now, I've no doubt. So by that point, the Electoral Commission opened their third investigation. And in my eyes, that was them becoming part of that mob.

That was them saying, you know, you had the temerity to get involved in this referendum. You had the temerity to dare put your head above the parapets. And bearing in mind, at the time of the referendum, I was 22. So that was that. And this time it was really serious. And they, you know, they were really going for it. So I had to lawyer up. I posted in the July of,

it would have been another year, the following year, when they actually said, okay, we have found that you're guilty of wrongdoing. You broke in Papira, which is the regulation, for elections and referendums. And I was fined 20,000 pound. Wow.

And referred to the Metropolitan Police. Now, in the July of 2018, someone's going to reply saying you've got that wrong. But I'm sure it was the July of 2018. And I know this because it was my birthday. And it's a really hilarious story of how I found out. I say hilarious. It's hilarious now.

It wasn't at the time. I was dating a guy for the first time. I'd been, I'd gone on a date with this guy and he'd come back and he'd stayed over. And every morning, this is no longer the case admittedly. But at that time, Alexa used to go off at 7 a.m. And it would be the Pips of the Today program. You know, that beep, beep, beep. And then it would give you the news.

And it said the official vote leave campaign has been fined at, I can't remember what that was. I think it was £71,000 and reported to the, referred to the Metropolitan Police. Also find £20,000 and referred to the Metropolitan Police, is Darren Grimes. And at this point, bearing in mind, I'm sat next to this bloke. I just sat up and he just, he turned to us and he says, did I just hear what I think I heard? and I said, yeah, I reckon you did, actually. I think you're probably going to have to go. So off he went.

It's a good excuse. Craig, excuse for a one-night stand. I've just been fined £20,000 and the Met are coming. You best get on your way, mate. There's no way I could have planned that in advance. And that was how I first found out, because the Electoral Commission had sent out a pre-embarkled press release the night before. So I called my solicitor and I says, uh-oh, and he said, yep, you're going to have to do

some crowdfunding. So I did, in the end, on an average donation of 30 quid from a few thousand people, maybe 2,000 and odd, I managed to raise 96,000 pounds. And that enabled me to get a QC, and to really take them on and see it through to the end. The Electoral Commission actually tried to settle in court. They clearly realized that they were going to lose. And they had the full machinery of the state. You know, they had the Treasury Devil, that's the government's QC. They had city solicitors, Field Fisher.

They represent some of the highest profile clients in the country. And despite all of that, they said, to me, you know, we'll reduce your fine to £5,000. I thought £5,000. I haven't got 50 quaint to give you a £5,000. So I thought,

hmm, and I was tempted, you know, because at that point, for, well, three years, I was absolutely knackered and I just wanted it all to go away. So I took my solicitor at the one side and my QC and we had a conversation about it.

And they gave me their advice, which was they wouldn't be offering this if they didn't think that they were running into difficulties in this case. I called my ma'am and she was like, listen, pet, you're going to do what's right for you, but I mean, you've got this far. And, you know, what if you got to lose, essentially? You think of Atila. What would Atila say? Atilla was rallying the truth. Yeah. You know, I called another mate also from County Durham, actually, and he just said, You've, you know, they've clearly realized that they're up against it yet and that the entire case that they've built against you has just been, you know, predicated on nothing, on just

basically pandering to those who were so desperate. And by the way, we've seen this as evidence last week with the Information Commissioner's report in Cambridge Analytica and the Russian conspiracy theories, you know, a carol from the Guardian waxed lyrical for three years of life. She used to call me screaming down the phone. Darren, you must speak to me. You must speak to me. Maybe that's what we need to do with August. You should. Well, actually, it didn't work. I never did. I blocked her number actually in the end. But, you know, she ran stories. I felt like I had my own weekly column in the Guardian at one point. I was on the front page of the observer every week for a period in one point in my life. It was bizarre. I was involved with

Cambridge Analytica. I had links to people like Aaron Banks and all this stuff. And it was all just proven to be completely insane. You know, they said the aggregate IQ, which was the company that we worked for for our advertising, that they had links to Cambridge Analytica and it was all dodgy and all the rest of it. And it amounted to nothing. All of it amounted to nothing. And so why? You think, why did they do this? And it. simply was because these people were absolutely desperate to do all they could to prove that the referendum was in some way illegitimate, that people from backgrounds like mine could not possibly have made the decision on their own

to leave the European Union. They must have been duped. It must have been the Russians. It must have been Grimes and his clever computer whiz case. Stop looking to me like that. You know, all sorts of conspiracy theories. now have been proven to be wrong. And for a state regulator to get involved in that sort of thing as well, I think

I did have serious implications. And I think we're going the right way, actually, as far as this Conservative government's concerned, for some serious reform of the Electoral Commission. And I do think, actually, they've probably had their day. And the Electoral Commission will not look how it looks today this time next year. So let's just come back to just to wrap up the point about the £5,000. You called your mum, got some friends, and they advise you to continue. They did, yes.

I did continue. And the result was half of it, I must admit, half of us was don't do it. And then half of us was, yeah, take it and run. And then it'll all be over. But it wouldn't have all been over. I still would have admitted that I was guilty of an offence. Right. So I thought, well, you know, you've got this far.

Just do it. Just go through with it. See what happens. The deliberation in the end, the judge went on for two hours, not given, he obviously wanted to make sure that the Electoral Commission had no chance of being able to judicially review the decision to take it to a higher court. And he went on for two hours, stressed the hell out of every point he possibly could, and didn't give any clues about which way he was going to go. So for two hours, I was sat in that courtroom. room and I'm an Anglican and in the corner of the courtroom there was, I can't actually remember what it was now, but something like praise God or something in the corner. And I remember just

looking at it and staring at it like my life depended on it and just saying, please God, please God, please God, let this go the right way. And it did. And I burst out crying in the bloody courtroom. The guardian was sat behind us, which actually in the end I absolutely loved. And after my flatmate cut out the Guardian's reporting of the case saying Grimes wins appeal against fine and we've got that framed and in the flat but I'm delighted that I did do it but I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy I tell you that much it was a horrendous ordeal and you know they're some of my best years of my life they should have been rather some of the best years of my life in the early 20s, and they were ruined by vexatious claims. And it looks like I'm

going to have to fight some more vexatious claims, but I'm sure we'll get on to that. Yeah. Well, I was going to say, and then you set up a podcast, and that's where your problems ended. Oh, exactly. I thought, right, a quiet life is what I want now. I'm going to set up a podcast, which is a conservative podcast. You know, we, I think in the same way that you guys do, like to champion free speech and debate. Well, actually free speech is the roof to being more inquisitive and actually finding solutions to problems. That's where I think we're going wrong as a society.

Far too often. And I'm afraid that decisions like that that we've had over the past week, which I know I keep jumping the shot and you're going to smack us if I keep doing right. He just looks like that. He's all faced, no bite, believe it. Not even bark, just all things. Just looks tense. Look, I spend a lot of time telling you what's wrong with the world.

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Absolutely. Oh, and by the way, all those little words you use, I've got no idea what they mean. But let me just summarize for people who are not aware, let's just summarize it very briefly, and then we'll get into the nitty-gritty. You interviewed a historian in this country called Dr. David Starkey. We've also had David on the show. He didn't say anything super controversial on our show. But when he was appearing on your show, you were talking about the slavery and the conversation turned to whether slavery was genocide. Yeah. And he made, I would say, ill-judged comments. And I think David is a brilliant commentator in his story. But even there's someone who's had him on the show, I would say the comments were ill-judged. I think we're in agreement? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Please don't cancel us. We did think it was badly worded. And what he said was slavery wasn't genocide. Otherwise, there wouldn't be so many damn blacks in the West. Am I quoting it?

Yeah, that's roughly right, yeah. Yeah. And you didn't challenge him on that at the time. He, the repercussions for him, I think, were very significant. Amends, yeah. And, you know, we had Catherine Berbel Singh come on the show, who's a conservative. Yeah, I love Catherine. Who criticized him and said that he was racist.

And, you know, we'll eventually have David back and maybe have her and have that conversation with the two of them. But essentially, David paid a very heavy price for comments which were ill-judged, in my opinion. And that story then essentially died down. You also apologize for not challenging him on that and being more robust than that. Within a few days, I believe. Yeah. And that was done.

I'm very bad with days, but this was a few months ago. It was June the 30th that the interview was uploaded. Yeah. By July 2nd, you know, that video had been edited, that remark taken out of the interview, that apology issued. I held my hands up and said, you know, I definitely should have.

of being more robust in my questioning, instead of being sat there nodding along to everything. I think the problem was, if I'm brutally honest with you, is that this was a man that I grew up with watching on the telly. This was a man who taught me a better introduction to the Tudas than my history classes did, a better introduction to the Reformation, a better introduction to the many things that have made Britain what it is today as far as our history is concerned. And I think I did get a little bit too carried away and wasn't really paying attention to what was being said in the interview. You know, I just couldn't believe my luck that an eminent historian like this wanted to appear on my show. So I hold my hands up and say that I failed as an interviewer

in not doing that. One thing I will say is that people don't realise this, but when when I'm running reasoned, I am producer, interviewer, you are master of so many trades that you're trying to, you know, click different overlays, you're trying to go to the next screen, go to the next question, you're trying to keep track of time. And it was a mixture of things. And I'm not making excuses for myself. I think what I have allowed to happen is reprehensible. You know, that one comment has clearly caused a lot of. lot of offence and hurt a lot of people. And for that, I am sorry. And of course, for Dr. Starkey as well, you know, he hasn't just been cancelled. He's been airbrushed from history. He's lost most

honours that he's being given. He's lost, even his books are under threat. And this is a man that has had a really quite impressive career for many, many years. So I feel really, really sad about that. I really do. And all I can say is what I had said in that statement is that moving forward, I will be more professional and pay more bloody attention and not get so carried away and lost in the excitement of it, I guess. Well, irrespective of his comments, just finishing the story, a couple of days ago, the news were revealed that you'd been contacted by the Metropolitan Police and asked to voluntarily attend an interview. It's an interesting. phrasing because if you don't attend it, you get arrested.

So it's not really that voluntary as far as like... Yeah, voluntary. Yeah, exactly. Not all that voluntary, but you are asked to attend an interview on the subject of you being charged potentially with... Is it stirring racial hatred? Stirring up, yeah. Yeah, that sounds.

It's a public order act, it's section 22 of the Public Order Act. And we're here on a Sunday night recording this within a couple of days of this. You're being investigated by the police for something that someone else said on the show that you recorded. That's right. So I'll just give you the story of how it happened and how it broke, and then I'll give you my hot take on what the hell is going on here. I had an email via my contact form on my website. Now, I get all sorts of emails, as you can imagine, via this contact form.

most of them calling us a prick, right-wing fascists, whatever, you name it. And actually quite a lot of lovely emails as well. So I opened my email box, busy typing away with something. And I noticed it said, interview. And being the massive narcissist that I am, I thought, oh, right, I must have a media bit. Do I click and opened it? And I saw that the email was a Met email, as in Met Police. and I thought, here we go.

So I read the email and it said, we'd like you to come in for a voluntary interview for your relating to your interview with David Starkey. Oh, it said Mr. Starkey. So I replied and I said, can I ask what it is I'm being accused of? And then came the reply quite quickly with basically a copy and paste

of Section 22 of the Public Order Act, which is stirring up racial hatred. And I thought, this kind of be real. Someone's having me on here. And I thought, is there a way in which you can clone emails? I was genuinely going through this thought process. I thought, this can't be happening. So I walked into my local police station.

And I said, listen, I've had this email. I walk in and I sit down and the door shuts behind you. It's quite eerie. And I thought, I might not get out of here again. And I say that the last behind the counter, I've had this email,

and I'm just wanting you to verify it for us, please. And she says, right, can I take your date of birth and your name and the name of the officer? So she types away that computer and I say, well, you know, I'm sure it must be real, right? And she's one moment, please, tapping away. It was very sort of computer says no. And she just turns and she says,

are you a broadcaster? And I just looked and I said, so it is real. I said, that's all I need. Thank you very much. She said, hold on. I said, no, no, no. That's fine, thank you. I thought, what's she going to do?

Arrest me now? I thought, I need to get out of here. So off I went. And I called Toby Young. And I said, you're not going to believe this. The founder of the free speech union. Free speech union, which by the way, I'd be lost if it wasn't for the free speech union. What a fantastic idea.

And quite an important one, as it turns out. And I say, is you're never going to believe this. What's happened? And I told him. And obviously, he said, of course, we'll help thank God. And then we started the ball rolling. My solicitor was replying to them. Lucas also

I think you've had the show he's fantastic and he's really put my mind at ease on a lot of this and we replied

and I thought right well maybe you know the solicitor replying will make it all go away that was a bit bloody naive you'd think after three bites of the cherry with the electoral commission I'd get the fact that these regulators

aren't very quick to just go away once they've had a email from a solicitor. So they then started saying things like, you know, the comment, the interview was posted at a time when it was politically insensitive. And I don't want to try and quote because I won't be able to off the top of my head. But I just thought, what are they saying here? Are the Metropolitan Police saying that I can't interview someone with controversial views

at a time when it's politically insensitive to do so? because what does that say about free expression and free speech? What are the Metropolitan Police playing at? And then I started to think, you know, bloody hell, this is actually quite serious. So at that point, I thought, you know, I decided, I really did at one point think, I'm not, they're going to have to arrest us. I'm not going for a voluntary interview. They'll have to come to the door and arrest me because I don't, I'm not having any truck with this.

It is as ridiculous as you've just set out that someone is facing arrest and seven years, it's a maximum sentence of seven years in prison if you're found guilty of a public order offence. We need to cancel this fucking podcast. Get out of things, go into banking, honestly, run. He can't count. And after this rib injury, no, they can't. walk, so they're just going to leave me in this chair. Have you ever been abroad and fell out of place because you didn't speak the language?

No, because I voted Brexit, mate. Brexit means Brexit. I know that when you go on holiday, sometimes you don't speak the language. It can feel really awkward, a little bit like Francis talking to a woman. Do you want to learn another language? Now, I don't for obvious reasons, but if you do, then Babel is quite simply one of the finest apps to use to achieve your goal. It is. It's got amazing, simple to use interface. They've got daily 10 to 15 minute lessons that you can do that have been proven effective in many studies as a great way to learn one of 14 languages that they offer. So it doesn't matter if you've got struggle with language for a variety of different

reasons. Maybe you find it tough or maybe you're just English. Right now Babel is offering Trigonometry fans six months completely free. All you got to do is head over there, get the six month subscription and use our special code, which is of course, Trigger. to babble.com.uk.uk slash play and use the promo code trigger on your six-month subscription. That's b-a-b-b-b-e-l.com.org forward slash play and use the code trigger. And we're not going to explain how to spell the word trigger because that would be patronising. So I, you know, I just thought this is, this is mental. This is insane. And then we did a press release. went out into the telegraph. And I must say the one heartland thing has been how much support

there has been. And I say that from across the political spectrum, you know, people who think that I, you know, as conservative as they come and that is morally reprehensible, Ash Sarker, for example, you know, she described me as a jar, but she said that this, she clearly disagreed with the decision from the Metropolitan Police and thought that it has serious repercussions for free speech. and even Tim Farron, the former leader of the Liberal Democrats, who I campaigned against in that leadership election, he said, on the face of it, this seems pretty dodgy. And there have been so many examples like that.

Even the Home Secretary has said, obviously, she can't comment on an operational matter, but the police should respect free speech. And you've just got to think about what this decision actually means, if it goes ahead, you know, if I leave here and the coppers are waiting outside the door. Yeah, we've made it happen. High drama on this show. High drama. Get them up.

And if I am, and I'm charged for this, this really will have serious repercussions. It'll mean that you guys and people like you, Piers Morgan, you name it. Thank you for putting in that bracket. The BBC. I don't wish to put you with the BBC. But I just have, you know, the BBC have had controversial guests on. Piers Morgan has controversial guests on each week. It's what makes for good telly.

You guys do because controversial people are interested. And they say things which, yes, might provoke a response that people find offensive, perish the thought. But that actually get us to a point as a society where we discuss issues. You know, you might think what Dr. Starkey said was wrong. Now, I happen to believe that and I happened to believe I was wrong not to challenge him on it, as I've said. But it's a good thing that as a society, we are one in which I can be challenged on that. It was a good thing that my show was criticised for not being robust enough in going back to Dr. Staggy and saying, whoa, hang on a minute, what do you mean by that?

That's the right response. that's what a healthy democracy and society does. It has these conversations. It doesn't report people to the police for having controversial guests on their show. It doesn't threaten seven years imprisonment. It doesn't waste a gross amount of taxpayer cash at a time when burglaries are going without investigation.

At a time when I've had so many emails from people saying, I can't believe the police think this is a valuable use of their time when, you know, my house was robbed and they didn't do out about it. They said, cuts. We can't, you know, we can it? We're overstretched. Yet they can find the time to interview a podcast host over having a controversial guest on their show for a public order offence. It's just extraordinary. I can't put that enough. It has really, really serious repercussions for free speech in a society that's supposed to cherish, that purports to cherish freedom of the press. We're no better than the likes of Russia if we allow something like this to happen. My country is really taking a beating here.

It has. I've mentioned Russia three times now. I'm starting to sound like Carol. But it really, really does. And I know you guys have said that and recognized that yourselves. Because channels like this are, to be frank, up shit creek without a paddle if this is the way in which the police are allowed to operate. So I think the feedback, though, is happening. I know MPs next week, Tim Loughton is going to say something in the Home Affairs Select Committee. Ben Bradley wants to raise an urgent question. The Home Secretary has put out a tweet. Whether or not more than that will happen, I don't know.

but I really do think that there needs to be a conversation about this hate crime legislation and the way in which we challenge views that we don't like. You can't do it through the legal system. If there's one experience, if there's one takeaway that I have from the last four years of my life since 2016, it's that there are a lot of left-wing activists in this country who will not have a debate with you. They do not want to actually sit down with you, have that conversation, that anyone in a free society has a license to do, they want to circumvent the ballot box.

They want to circumvent the parameters of free speech and debate and go straight for the court system, straight for the law. And that's one thing, that's one phenomenon that I've seen over the past four years that is getting worse and worse. Now, the Law Commission has put out a consultation which is talking about widening the parameters of hate crime legislation, which will mean that misogyny becomes, that will be classed as a hate crime if you are misogynistic.

And to widen it for other parameters as well, I think actually being hateful towards men could be, what's the opposite of misogyny? Misandry. Thank you. And these sorts of things, I think, have also really quite serious repercussions. We should be widening the scope of hate crime legislation. If I leave here today as a gay man

and someone punches me square in the face, I won't be more offended that they've punched me because I'm gay. I'm offended because they've smacked us across the chops, and I want them to be punished for that. I don't care if they don't like the fact that I'm gay. You know, I just worry that going down this route is having really serious consequences, and actually we should pull back and start to re-evaluate some of it, because it quite clearly, as has been evidence over the past week,

having really serious repercussions, which haven't been thought through and which we should address some of the reforms that were put through by Blair, not worsen them. And do you think there's been a gradual encroachment on freedom of speech, or do you think it's an overnight thing?

Because I'll be honest with you. The moment I heard your case, I struggle to believe it, but then I looked back at certain instances with, for instance, with Joe Brand, with Cam Dankula. It seems to have been a gradual process. Harry Miller as well, you can add to that, who we've had on the show, Pousy Parker, interviewed by the police,

Chelsea Russell, who was actually prosecuted for posting the lyrics of a song in tribute to her friend. I did a whole comedy show about this. I mean, you talk about Russia, by the way. In this country in 20, I think 17 or 18, nearly 3.5,000 people were arrested for things they said. In Russia, it was 400. So in many ways, you could argue, we're doing great. Yeah, but you do have a more effective way of dealing with. Absolutely. That's how it should be dealt with. Well, here's hope enough. I do actually think it's got worse, to be honest with you, because I do think that there is, I guess,

more of an acceptance that if you don't like what someone said, you should report it to the police, that it's acceptable to do that, that it's commonplace to do that, and that actually the CPS and the Mets welcome it. And far from actually saying we should... One phenomenon that's also been really strange, with things like burglaries, with things like knife crime,

the raison d'etre of the police is to reduce those things, is to actually reduce the numbers of them and challenge them and stop them and stop the perpetrators of these crimes. With hate crime, it actually seems to be the opposite. They actually want more of it. And that, for them, is ticking a box in, look at us. Good job, eh?

Look how many hate crime stats. We've had non-crime hate crimes and all the rest of it reported this year, and they take a big box and say how walk and progressive they are, the job of any justice system should surely be to ensure that we have less of this stuff, not more of it. There seems to be more and more of a push to show that they're doing something about this stuff. They're challenging hate crime and all the rest of it.

And listen, I say this as someone who was punched about at school for being a faggot. right? I am not someone who sat here saying that we haven't had problems as a society and who doesn't understand why there was a need for legislation like this, but I actually do think it's gone far too far, especially at a time when a journalist can be pulled in for something that his guest has said. That said, I actually don't even think it would be valid to pull in Dr. Starkey for his comments. As I say, in any free society, challenge Dr. Starkey robustly. Tell us why you hate what he said. Tell us why you criticize him.

Tell us why you think he was wrong to say that. Tell us why you think I was staggeringly incompetent at my job as an interviewer. But you don't report someone to the police just because you're offended by what they say. And the idea that he stirred up hatred, never mind me that he stirred up hatred. The only hatred that Dr. Stardley stirred up was against himself. You know, the man, as I say, wasn't just cancelled. He was airbrushed from history. He's lost every honour that he had.

His books are under attack. Attack the man for what he said. Don't report him to the police because it doesn't get us anywhere as a society. The way in which you challenge views that you find uncomfortable, the way in which we advance as a society is more speech. You know, sunlight is very much the best disinfectant. We need more words, not shutting down them. And, you know, we're trying to get people arrested for daring to have the temerity to have their own podcast.

And do you want to jump in? I was just going to say that you're sitting here talking to two people who voted Remain. Because we're good people. Because we're good people. That will do very well with his audience, that joke, right? And, you know, Francis is an old school lefty. I think of, I'm very much bang in the centre. or politics, neither of us is a natural, in natural agreement with your views.

Can we make that clear? And however, what is happening to you is absolutely preposterous. And you talk about people shouldn't report you or Dr. Stark into the police. There will always be a few idiots who will, you know, someone reported Brexit to the police or whatever it was, right? That's always going to happen. The issue for me, and I think this is a really key issue, is why are the police dealing with this? But before we get to the police, let's maybe talk about the whole Remain and Brexit thing,

because you alluded to it earlier, and I instinctively, I don't know, but instinctively, that's my sense, is you are being punished by people who are frustrated at the outcome of the referendum. And frustrated particularly that someone like you should be one. of the more prominent voices who supported and advanced it. In other words, you're gay, you're young, you know, all of these other things that make up your identity. You just, you're a unicorn. You shouldn't exist. And yet here you are on the cutting edge of this process. Do you think that's really what this is all about? Well, I didn't actually initially, but Ian Dale wrote a piece. And in Dale, as he is, have you had them on the show? Yeah, with twice.

Ian Dale is a bit of a centrist, Sally, right? He's someone on the left of the Conservative Party. Well, actually, I'm not even sure he's a member of the Conservative Party anymore. So I shan't tarnish him with that brush. But he wrote this piece on me, and it was very nice, saying that I am an articulate proponent of Brexit, and that's why a lot of people hate me. For all the reasons at your list, I shouldn't have these views.

my identity, as far as identity politics would have me believe, should say that I am a product of the left. So I shouldn't have these views. I shouldn't be a conservative. I shouldn't hold culturally conservative values. And a lot of people say, oh, Darren, you know, well, you know, maybe this is what you get for being so controversial. And I say, hang on a minute. Controversial. My views on the BBC are held by the vast majority of this country. who think that license fee reform should happen. My views on Brexit, the country voted for it. My views on the Conservative Party. They just won a majority 80 seat.

What is it about me? That's controversial. It's not what I'm saying is controversial to the country. It's that my views are controversial to an out-of-touch pocket of very influential metropolitan liberals that occupy positions in the Kango state, that occupy positions in the BBC, that occupy positions in most of the media. And I say that even about some centre-right publications as well, actually.

I hear from so many graduate journalists who get involved with this, who have really quite left-wing pro-Cobin views. And they're working for the sun. And you just think, you know, I think, bloody hell, we've got no hope, if that's the case. But they're all centre-left, at least, some of them quite harder left. metropolitan and they do not like what I'm saying and they don't like that and I'm going to speak highly of myself because if I don't no one else is going to I feel like I'm getting quite good at it as far as my reach is concerned for some reason a lot of people like what I have to say right and I don't think there's anything controversial about that but we are getting to the position where an in Dale put this in his piece, that why would anyone, in my position, the next generation of young people, political commentators, people involved in politics, who have my views, which as I say, in my view,

our mainstream, dare put the head above the parapet because you will risk cancellation. And that's what Ian said. And Ian is not someone who was a head-banging conservative like I am. He is a centrist who works for LBC, who in my opinion, LBC's gone quite woke. So if he has these concerns, and I'm getting support from the likes of Ash Sarker and Tim Farron, something's gone wrong here. Something's, we're definitely as a society, or as far as our institutions are concerned,

getting something really, really wrong. Now, I do think a lot of people hate me vehemently because of Brexit, same time as I say a lot of people are, I'm very Marmite, I don't deny that. You either lovers or you hateers. Julia Hartley Brewer called us up and she went, you like me, Darren, you like me, you like me. And I do think Brexit was that sort of,

it sort of released a feeling from the people that I've just spoken about that for the first time, we plebs had said, no, we're not going along with what you are advocating. we are actually going to stand up for what we believe in, for whether that be the nation state, whether that be culturally conservative values,

we are just going to start saying no to you people. And I do think there has been a real political awakening. And yet I think you see that in how fast movements like defund the BBC have grown. You know, they've managed to raise an impressive amount of cash. They've got 100,000 followers on Twitter. The BBC producers are not very happy. about it. The BBC are worried that genuine reform is coming. And I think it is because people are more politically awakened than they have been certainly in my lifetime. And that, to me, is a bloody good

thing. But then I also have the same concern as Eden Dale. And that is that people watching what's happening to me, people watching what the last four years of my life have been. And I don't think my mother would tell any of my, I've got a younger brother who's a... I don't think she'd advocate that he get involved in politics, put it that way. And I'm not sure I could look him in the eye and tell him he should as well. And he's a hell of a lot cleverer than I am. And that's quite a sad state of affairs. Everyone should feel that they have purchase in our society.

Everyone should feel that they can get involved in the democratic process. But if you've got the wrong views, they'll come for you. They will seek to destroy you and your life. that's what this is all about with me. These people, and I don't think I'm being grandiose or verbose in saying this, they want to destroy me. They basically want nothing more than for me to shut my big gob and go away. Because people are listening and that's what they can't stand.

Again, going back to Brexit and since then with the general election result, people are finally saying enough is enough. You know, the left vote after 2017 with the fluke election and Theresa May, making a right balls up of it, that the left were going to win. And I think they got a bit complacent, thought Jezah could storm it, Jeremy Corbyn. Well, yeah, the Russians behind. Oh, he had the Russians. Stop slandering my country.

We had nothing to do with that. Even we looked at that one, no, we're not touching Comrade Corbyn. But, you know, people in this country said, no, I'm absolutely sick of you people, belittling what's good about this country. I actually quite like Britain. I'm not ashamed to be British. I'm not ashamed of all of these values that I hold dear. I think we saw that recently with the BBC Prom's decision rolling back on playing some of those precious national anthems that we value and the one time of year that we get to sing these songs. And the BBC saying, oh, coronavirus offers us an absolutely amazing opportunity to get rid of some of these headbans.

a patriotic songs, doesn't it? And the British people said no. And I think we are starting to say no to these people more. And we need to continue saying no. Because as Douglas has said, and I think actually he said it on your show, say, I do listen. He said, if someone, if a friend who, if someone if you knew offered you some advice and you knew they don't have your best interests at heart, you would ignore them. You would ignore that advice. A mate that does have your best interests at heart, you would say, yeah, I'll take that on board. Maybe I should shut me gob a bit more.

It's advice I might have to take. But when someone really doesn't wish you well, you should apply that to a nation as well and just start saying no to people. And I think that's what we've got to start doing on those who are, I think, putting a real chilling effect on principles that we hold dear

and have done, for much longer than anyone in this room has been alive, which are those democratic principles of a free society, free speech, free expression, a free and open press, and long may that continue. But at the minute, it really is under threat. And again, it sounds grandiose for anyone that hasn't read the story. But just read the quote from the Metropolitan Police.

You know, they are actually investigating this, investigating a journalist for having the temerity to have on a controversial guest, what does that say about where we're at as a society? Do you think they've made an example of you because of who you are? Well, listen, I don't, I said to your producer on the way up here, I said I don't like to think of myself as a conspiracy theorist. I think COVID's turned us all into conspiracy theorist, Darren. Maybe.

But I must say, admit, there is an element of us that thinks controversial channel, check, bit of a big mouth, check, not really afraid to say what he thinks, check. Maybe it would send a pretty strong signal. We're fucking done. I mean, it's not as if we haven't pissed people off, let's be fair. No, we're next. Yeah. So you do sense that it's something that people might be used as a, you know, as an example to us, for example. We might. look at that and go, well, let's not have David Starkey back. What if he says something

wrong? Or, you know, other people who do what we do, might look at it like that too. Maybe. I mean, I wouldn't be surprised, rather, if the complainant, the person that made the complaint to the police. And by the way, it says it went to Durham police first. So I don't know if that was just someone

assuming, because of my accent, I live in Durham and therefore they report me to Durham police. Who knows? But I wouldn't be surprised if it was some lefty lawyer type, you know, activist type, who's made the complaint. But whether or not the police have jumped on it and thought, oh, look at this, lad's cracking. Burglary now. Darren Grimes, I'm up for this, crack on. Who knows? I don't know. I can't say I don't have the facts. But what's for sure

is that it does have really serious repercussions, even now. Even now, there might be some young podcaster sat thinking, well, you know, I was about to swear there. Bullocks to this, essentially. I just did swear, so there we are. You're allowed to swear, but. Brilliant. You meant to say Foxx. I did.

Yeah. I'm starting to sound like my mother there. I'm thinking twice about interviewing someone. We're not a society that should be making people think twice. about conducting a bloody interview. Come on. We are better than this. And I think that just to really highlight how serious it is, that coalition that I mentioned, you know, Ash Sarker, Tim Farron, Nick Timothy, you've put them three in a bed and they're pretty unlikely bedfellows, aren't they? They'd be pretty uncomfortable, elbow and each other

pretty quickly, I imagine. So things are afus. I hope it doesn't go any further, but I've had contact from the mail today saying that, daily mail, saying that the Met Police don't wish to change their statement. So it looks like it's going ahead. It looks like everything's continuing as it was. I am willing to fight it all the way. Just because, listen, I can't live a life, which doesn't have trigonometry in it. So I've got to keep having to keep on.

Very good. You've got yourself in archivocs, not that you needed to or that you weren't there already. It boggles the mind. What this is even happening is absurd. You make the point, and I think it's a point well-made, that actual ordinary crime is not being investigated. I had my car broken into a few roads from here the other day or a few months ago. I got a crime reference number for insurance.

No investigation, even though there was CCTV there. There could have been plenty of witnesses, right? There are people who've had their houses burgled. There are people who've been attacked, muggings, all that sort of thing. Yeah, but were the criminals, wearing masks. Exactly. Maybe that was the mistake you made.

This is absurd. This is, and we should all say it, but let me put the counterpoint to you, and it's very easy for me to sit in this chair and say this. And for you, I'm sure it's very different. But the argument that a lot of people who don't like it will make is, look, this is great for Darren. This is brilliant. This investigation is going to happen.

They can't prosecute this. This is absurd. You will never go anywhere. But he'll get the attention, the notoriety, his numbers will go up on YouTube, he'll do another fundraiser, and everything will go back to Darren being wonderful and he can continue to spout forward his right-wing bigotry. There are two points I'd make there. The first being that my solicitor has said that this is unprecedented use of the Public Order Act. Now, the Public Order Act is a 1986 act. I didn't know that before last week. And that was passed by Margaret Thatcher's government.

Now, correct as if you think I'm wrong. But I don't think Margaret Thatcher was sat there in number 10, rubbing her hands thinking, I'd like this legislation to be used to tackle those who dare have the temerity to have controversial guests on their show. I think it was to combat genuine forms of stirring up racial, hatred. You know, those who really do want to cause those harm who they don't like based on the colour of their skin. And not someone interviewing someone who has controversial views,

but clearly in my eyes, only stirred up hatred against himself, right? So that would be the first point, is that this is quite serious in the sense of legislation is now being used in a way in which it hasn't in the past. As far as my solicitor's concerned, this is unprecedented. use of the act. So putting that, you know, marker there. The second point is that it's all well and good for people to say, oh, well, he's loving the attention. You know, a lot of people might think that I am some loudmouth narcissist who quite

likes, you know, being able to be invited on your show, for example, which obviously I am, by the way. But the idea that I want many months, if not years of my life, taken up after four years of litigation, not too long ago, I only was cleared by the Metropolitan Police for the Electoral Commission charge earlier this year during lockdown. This is the second time I have been facing a charge and investigation by the Metropolitan Police in one year. The idea that I am rubbing my hands with glee saying, ooh, goody, goody, think of all the attention I'm going to get,

is absolutely insane. I would like nothing more than to be able to just sit and interview people, to be a journalist, to write column pieces on what I think would be best for people that come from backgrounds like mine in the red wall seats. I would like nothing more than to be a regular talking head again, to go back to live in life like a normal person who didn't feel like. that they had a crosshair over their head. But one thing I will say to that is that I'm in a lucky position.

I have this platform. I'm able to be invited onto your show and talk about this and why it's so serious. Many people that are accused of these vexatious charges for thought crimes essentially won't be in that position. They will have to fight this without financial means. They will have to fight it with the free legal advice that's offered to them. They don't have the means to, if I do have to crowd fund, for example. And what are we doing about those people?

It's those people that I want us to start having a conversation about and what we're doing to them. So that's why the free speech union is so bloody important. And I would ask all of you is watching this, I'm looking down the camera now, to join the free speech union and support them. Because I think it's such a vitally important work that we do start,

fight back against this because it's having a real chilling effect on free speech and debate, not just for people gobshites like me with a hundred and however many thousand followers on Twitter. Oh, I don't need to rub it in. But for every Tom Dick. Yeah, exactly. And what does that matter in the grand scheme of things? You know, it's about the Tom Dick and Harry out there, or Felicity. I've had to mention a woman, otherwise I'll be cancelled, out there on the street being accused of things. You know, there was that story, wasn't there, where someone beat the horn and they were accused of a hate crime

for doing so. And it's just like, this is actually insane. Come on. We can't be this. We are better than this. This is a United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. We lecture countries like yours about democracy. I'm leaving. I was going to say, do you think that the lockdown and the COVID situation has made it worse? Well, there are clearly a lot of people sat on, not up to much at the minute, aren't there? Through no fault of their own, but, you know, living off the taxpayer for the most part. And that's about to change.

That's all of us, really. Yeah. Well, so that's clearly, it must be a factor. but a lot of commentators much more learned than I am have said that actually they think lockdown and the coronavirus across the West has sped up the culture wars by a factor of 10. And I think that probably must be right.

And I actually naively thought the opposite. During the start of lockdown, I was saying, well, a virus that has squirreled many of us, billions of us behind doors, must make us re-reelieu. re-evaluate our priorities as a country, as a society across the West. You know what, Darren, it's exactly what I said, and this is where it helps to have a depressive sidekicks.

We're mugs. Because France has predicted all of this, didn't you, mate? Yeah. Yeah, I just see, the moment everyone gets behind a computer extended access to social media. Well, you were bang on then, clearly. Yeah, the only time it's happened. So let me ask you, do you think I'm going to prison? No.

Oh, well, that's good. That's good. I think that they're going to consult lawyers and they're going to realize that their position is legally untenable. Plus, they're also going to take on board the prevailing winds of what people are thinking and saying publicly. It seems to me an entirely stupid thing to do. However, no, I don't think so.

However, no, you are going to prison. Yeah, yeah, you're getting sent down. No, no. I honestly, I mean, the Metropolitan Police have done many ridiculous things in their time, but this would be one step too far, in my opinion. Yeah, and having said that, Darren, even if that is the case, and I sincerely hope that it is, and I think sanity will prevail in the end. The point that you make about the chilling effect of this is undoubtedly there. I think people will massively underestimate the impact.

You're clearly a very strong, resilient young man. But I think even for someone like you, as someone has been in a much smaller way in the spotlight, I know the toll it can take. And the idea that this is something that is without consequence or even beneficial, I think it misses the point very significantly. Totally. And I don't think incidentally, and this is a point that you make as well, entry into politics, into debate, should only be for people who are sort of who've got a perverse brain like the three of us who are willing to have that fight, who are willing to be called terrible names, who are willing to go as far in your case as being. investigated by the police. Actually, we need sort of more shrinking violence in politics. We need people who can't deal with what you're dealing with right now, but have a valuable contribution to make to society. And the fact that all of those people are now being

squeezed out and alienated from the political process is a travesty. Exactly. And that's exactly what Ian Dale said in this piece at the weekend yesterday. This week has dragged. You know, he was saying the next round of political commentators, Why would the day? Why would the bother if this is what Darren Grimes is going through? And you're exactly right because in a lot of ways, I am a bit of a freak, right? If you consider the fact that, you know, I was already quite resilient by having gone through everything I went through as a kid, quite a tough upbringing. You know, a man got divorced and we ended up using a food bank at one point.

I had tough times and that makes you quite a strong person. You know, I had four years of litigation with the electoral commission, vexatious charges made by the press, you get used to it, you develop a bit of a thick hide. I'm now experiencing this. And I, whilst the only thing I am worried about is the consequence, the repercussions it has on my family, not on me. You know, I'm used to it now. But you're absolutely right. You've nailed it, basically, in that argument of it shouldn't, politics shouldn't be the present. of people like me who have had to get tough, who have had to go through this journey. It should be the preserve of those who just care about the democratic process, who are passionate about something. I don't care if it's taxpayer subsidies for gardening. Who cares? You should be able to feel that you have a right to put your head above the parapet and argue your case. And at the minute, I feel like we are creating, unless that could be an Ultra Walk gardener and then you're fine.

Harry. But it shouldn't be the case that we decide that you can get involved in politics but only if you subscribe to this increasingly narrow parameter of views. Only if you align with this increasingly narrow

and I would argue what is placing, even that's placing a chilling effect on our politics because politicians etc. are now saying well I can't say X, Y and Z, because I'll get cancelled by X, Y and Z. And there are so many things where we do just need to start saying no.

Otherwise, politics will become the preserve of the freaks like me, who are resilient enough to stand and big enough, they have platforms to withstand this sort of thing and be a target. Politics shouldn't be the preserve of people like me who have built up a following, who have been through four years of litigation. Four years of litigation should be a one-off. that should be an extreme case scenario. But actually increasingly, those with views that left activists don't like are facing litigation,

whether that be liable, whether that be, I don't know, they've sent out a tweet that someone doesn't like. And politics is becoming increasingly a dangerous arena to be in. And that's not good for any democracy. That's not healthy for any democracy. You know, we might not face the same repercussions in other countries as far. whereas press freedoms consent, you know, we're not going to be murdered for our views. But our careers could be. Our livelihoods could be.

And that's surely obviously not as serious, but serious. And what we're seeing with the Metropolitan Police is almost an endorsement of what we're seeing in our politics at the minute. And the Met Police should be far outside of that. The Metropolitan Police should be there to protect the law, to put in place the law. It doesn't seem to be doing a lot of that as far as, you know, burglaries and all the rest of it are concerned. And instead focusing on political acts like hate crime legislation because if you walk activists have said, well, actually, I'm offended. And that to me is so wrong, so wrong. Darren, the question I wanted to ask you is, imagine you had a time machine.

And you went back to that kid who was 18 years old about to get into politics. Would you tell him not to do it? Depressingly, yeah, I would. I would actually. Really? Yeah, definitely 100%. I mean, I am a much stronger person now than I was when I was 18. I've obviously been through quite a lot and I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy.

I really, really wouldn't. But I guess basically because of what I put my first, family through. You know, a council estate in County Durham, they had the press at the door telling them that, oh, they'll be able to help the son out. My mother help a son out if she speaks to the press. And it's that sort of thing where you just think, they're working nine or five. They're going out doing their jobs. Even my little brother who was at school at the time was asked questions by the press. And it's just, it's not nice. It's not a nice thing to put someone through. So honestly, no I wouldn't, but I'm here now. So it's a case of tough luck but a cup and I'm going to try and use my voice and my platform to make society one better for my family and families like them up and down the country. But secondly, we now know through my own experience just what the repercussions are of the activism within the law is concerned. And I really think that if,

if I use in my platform can try and provoke, I think I've done that already, some form of debate around this, that can't come a moment too soon, especially as I said that the law, when they are considering expanding hate crime law, to make this situation even worse and make more people even more vulnerable and susceptible

to vexatious charges like this one, we do need to actually take a step back re-evaluate where we're at and have a conversation about why don't we're, novel idea if you disagree with someone, have a conversation with them. Don't go to the police.

Who knows it could work out. Well, Darren, it's obviously an evolving story. We're recording this, as I say, on Sunday night. You'll go out Monday or Tuesday. So by the time this goes out, who knows what's happened. So I would urge, and, you know, agreeing with you,

for anyone who's listening to this to join the Free Speech Union. Francis and I are both on the advisory board of it, because it's really important so that there's protection for people like you, but also as importantly, you mention people who don't have the same platform as you do. And equally, I urge people, if you end up needing their help to help you and support you, because irrespective of whether someone's listened through this and thought, I don't agree with a single thing this guy thinks about politics, the fact that you're being investigated by the police is absurd.

And it shouldn't happen. And I hope that that coalition from all the way from Ash Sarka to everybody on the other side works. I hope you don't end up being prosecuted, which will be absurd again. I don't think it will be. But all power to you. Thank you. We are very much on your side. Our audience will be on your side as well.

And obviously any help we can give you. We will. But we always have one more question for, I guess. It's a pity that's in these circumstances, but nonetheless it's there. And it is what's the one thing we're not talking about as a society. society, but we really should be. Well, I've got two brothers back home who are both unemployed because of the coronavirus economic response. They are both, I guess, not as inclined with the academic route. And I reckon we should be talking a hell of a lot more about different forms of education.

Why are we not talking about technical education? There seems to be a relentless focus, especially among the sort of media commentariat, who are obviously overwhelmingly university educated to focus on university education. And actually I think we as a country, why don't we have more plumbers? Why don't we have more? And actually open up different levels of education and different types of education so that those who don't want to go on to university can actually benefit from whether that be a grammar school to a technical education. And it's that sort of thing that I'm quite passionate about actually and would really help seats that Boris Johnson has won for the first time for the Conservative Party in that general election last year. We're not talking about

these sort of things. Instead, I'm talking about being hauled into a police station. But never mind, I'm sure eventually we'll get there. Hopefully we will. Well, actually, very soon we'll have an interview with David Goodhart coming out, who's talking about this very, his book is brilliant. So make sure you tune in for that. Yeah, but you were going to thank Darren, I think. Yeah, I think, Darren, thank you so much for coming on. We hope this isn't the last time we see you. That was meant to be a joke. Oh, well, fantastic. Wait, read the fucking room. Jesus Christ. I'm teasing. And I'm sure that this will be exposed as a nonsense. It is. Thank you so much for coming on. If people want to follow you,

where is the best place to do that? At Darren Grimes underscore, don't do it if you're just going to send abuse, right? And thank you for watching. After all that Russophobic abuse, I'm off to make Darren a little cup of tea. Thank you so much, guys. Thank you for tuning in. Our episodes go out on Wednesday and Sunday at 7pm and the live streams go out. When do they go out, Constantine? Tuesday, Thursday, Friday and Saturday. But obviously, this interview will probably go out a little bit earlier than Wednesday. So it may be a bit different this week. In any case, 7pm every day. We're here for you. See you soon. And if we don't see you soon,

we'll see you at the police station. Take care, guys.