TRIGGERnometry - Douglas Murray: This is About Survival

Episode Date: November 5, 2023

Douglas Murray is a British writer and political commentator. He is an associate editor of the Spectator and a columnist at the Telegraph and the New York Post among others. He is the author of many best-selling books including The Strange Death of Europe: Immigration, Identity, Islam (2017), The Madness of Crowds: Gender, Race and Identity (2019), and The War on the West: How to Prevail in the Age of Unreason (2022). SPONSOR: Go to https://www.GiveSendGo.com/ to check out a better alternative to crowdfunding. Support the people who support freedom! Become a Premium Member to receive exclusive benefits https://triggernometry.supercast.com/ OR Support TRIGGERnometry Here: Bitcoin: bc1qm6vvhduc6s3rvy8u76sllmrfpynfv94qw8p8d5 Music by: Music by: Xentric | [e-mail] | https://www.xentricapc.com/ YouTube: @xentricapc  Buy Merch Here: https://www.triggerpod.co.uk/shop/ Advertise on TRIGGERnometry: [e-mail] Join the Mailing List: https://www.triggerpod.co.uk/sign-up/ Find TRIGGERnometry on Social Media:  https://twitter.com/triggerpod https://www.facebook.com/triggerpod/ https://www.instagram.com/triggerpod/ About TRIGGERnometry:  Stand-up comedians Konstantin Kisin (@konstantinkisin) and Francis Foster (@francisjfoster) make sense of politics, economics, free speech, AI, drug policy and WW3 with the help of presidential advisors, renowned economists, award-winning journalists, controversial writers, leading scientists and notorious comedians. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

They come up with this idea, for instance, that there are indigenous people who were moved out. The Palestinians are the indigenous people and they were moved out by the Jews. You can do that if you want. Now let's do Britain. You want to play the indigenous people, own the land first game and the other people should fuck off? I do not want to live in a country with Hamas supporters. I want them deported. I want them chucked out. Simple. If there are people in the UK who are offended by the posters of missing Jewish children,

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Click the link on the podcast description, or find the link on your podcast listening app to join us. Support us and help change the way we have conversations and make the world saner. you're back for the I don't know which time but we've had you on many times and I put it to you that there's good news and bad news the good news is that you were right the bad news is that you were right

what have you made of the last three weeks well I suppose like all of us it's a mixture of things first shock then horror then shock again then horror then disappointment and then rage probably in roughly that order

horror at what happened in Israel shock like everyone this was able to happen horror the details of what happened shock then at the response on the streets of cities like the one were sitting in in London the fact that there were so many people who didn't even didn't even give it a day before they turned out on the streets of my city supporting the people who've done this act of terror

and then in the weeks since increasing rage rage that I have to share a country with these people and I think the thing that we've all had to come to terms with is how some people have just been so open about supporting an extremist, Islamist, terrorist, group and also refusing to acknowledge it as such. Well, before you answer, Douglas, one of the things that I've noticed in comments is people like, well, these are pro-Palestine marches.

And I think we have to be clear that what we're talking about is in the first two days prior to Israel responding in any way, there were people celebrating. Yeah, the bodies of the dead hadn't even been found. They were still warm in some cases. Some people were still in the process of being massacred. And even as that was still going on, people were always. the out on the streets of cities like London, protesting against Israel.

And that was what it was. It was straight away a protest against Israel. And, you know, look, there are lots of fine delineations you can do about it, some of which are true and some are not. You could claim that the people who've come out in recent weekends on Saturdays care about Palestinian lives, I don't think they do. I just don't think they do.

and I'll tell you one reason why is that nobody in the Middle East apart from the Israelis cares about the Palestinians are jot. I've traveled around the region, I've spoken to enough people including leaders of other countries in the region to know.

The Jordanians do not like the Palestinians at all. They find them an unbelievable encumbrance and that's why they haven't opened their borders to the people in the West Bank who should effectively be in Jordan. The Egyptians loathe

the Palestinians. the authorities of keeping the border between Egypt and Gaza closed because they hate the Palestinians. I know people who were born in Gaza when Gaza was run owned by Egypt. If Egypt wanted to solve the Gaza problem, it could do so tomorrow by taking control of Gaza or allowing the people of Gaza to go into Egypt, where they should be. Nobody else in the region cares. The Qataris host Hamas and fund Hamas. as well as, of course, pumping billions of pounds into countries like this one

to make us deeply compromised. But nobody in the region cares about the Palestinians. Certainly nobody cares about them more than the Israelis who go to incredible efforts to try to limit the deaths and the mistreatment of the Palestinians, even as the whole region, the world, has given them these people to look after. Nobody really cares about the Palestinians, and frankly the idea that Muslims care about their brother Muslims is absolutely rubbish.

I think we've flattered much of the so-called Muslim street by even pretending this in recent years. Hundreds of thousands of Muslims have been killed in Yemen in the last few years, and there hasn't been a protest 1% of the size of what we've seen in recent days and weeks in the West. Hundreds of thousands of Muslims have been killed in Syria in the last over a decade since the Civil War. in Syria, by Assad, by the Assad regime, by rival jihadist groups, by intra-religious sects, and much more. And we haven't seen 1% of the people who turned out on streets of this day. The idea that Muslims actually care about their fellow Muslims is insane. They don't.

What they care about is Jews. There is something at the very root of Islam and followers of the Muslim religion who cannot bear any war in which Israel is fighting and most of all loathes any war in which Israel is winning. And you can see it. It's at the absolute core of their being. This is why they are on the streets of this city and others marching. It's not because they love fellow Muslims, it's because they hate Jews. So you're saying there's something at the root of the religion.

Well, let's tease that apart. What do you mean by that? Well, there's two particular things worth mentioning. One is, of course, that Muhammad, the founder of Islam, himself beheaded, massacred many, many Jews. Famously, one battle in particular. And the Banu Khrash, it's a story you can find in the Quran and the Hadith. And of course, this is because the Jews would not accept the revelation of Muhammad, such as it was. And so they were one of the, they were a scene within Islamic traditions, being one of the first people who turned down the opportunity to join Islam. and as a result, of course, Muhammad decapitated hundreds and hundreds of Jews.

So that's not a good start. But there's a bigger thing, I think, within the Muslim world, which is worth mentioning, which the late Bernard Lewis pointed out on a number of occasions, which is the great problem within Islam when it comes to not just Judaism, but the wider non-Islamic world is that the Muslim religion claims to, be the last revelation from God to man, which we all know is a very large claim to make. It says there have been previous revelations, but this is the last and final one. And what's more God has given you a book, the Quran. And the Quran is the one book you need. The opening,

sorry, no, here is the book wherein is no doubt, which is quite a bold claim as well, I'd say. but the claim that the foundation of Islam is here is the book wherein is no doubt and it's the only book you need and it's the final word from God that man will ever have now if you are the recipients of this book the people who end up either converting or being forced to convert to Islam and eventually the areas that Islam takes over by force if you are somebody who's brought up in that tradition

you would think that being the recipient of the final revelation from God, you would be in a just tip-top situation. You know, you would imagine that, well, this is going very well. We've got the final revelation from God. What's not to like? What's not on our side? And then several things happen in the millennia since, which is, first of all, many, many Muslims realize

that despite having the final revelation from God, things don't seem to be going very well. Until oil is discovered in certain parts of the Middle East, most people live in total destitution. The discoveries and enlightenment of Europe largely passed the Muslim world by. This shouldn't be exaggerated. Certain parts of the Muslim world, of course,

give the Western world certain parts of what becomes the Western European tradition. So there were times of interplay. There were times of mutual learning. And now, of course, everyone looks back at them, or many people look back at those times with nostalgia. Nevertheless, in the main, the Muslim world cut itself off,

from the rest of the world and didn't care to learn from the rest of the world, didn't improve the economic conditions of its people, totally failed to create societies anything like as successful, for instance, European societies. And therein a question arises, which is if we are the recipients of the final revelation, why is everything so awful where we live? And then you have the additional thing, which is,

and how come the Jews' return? return or re-establish the, of course, many Jews already living in the area that's now Israel, already lived there, but many others come from other parts of the world, including from the Middle Eastern countries where they're chucked out by the governments in 48

and so on. The Muslim world sees this tiny, tiny bit of land. This tiny bit of land, which, among other things, is the only bit of the Middle East that doesn't have any oil. And they make of it a much more successful, country than any of the countries around.

Now, if you create a Palestinian state, you just have another failed Arab state, another failed Muslim state to add to the more than 50 already failed Muslim and Arab states. What is the explanation? Jews who refuse the Prophet's invitation to Islam are still here, have this tiny bit of land and make all of these discoveries and other things that show themselves to be so successful. It's a some kind of stab in the heart. And instead of saying, we're doing this wrong, the thing is, the Jews are doing something right, and that must mean that they've rigged the game. That's why they care, among other things. And it leads to the deep pathology of antisemitism, which has been largely eradicated in Europe among Europeans, not entirely,

but largely there are still some bits of the far right you can find across Europe and occasionally in the UK with a sort of the whiff of this noxious thing still emerges. On the left, of course, it's much more, it's much closer to the boat. But principally anti-Semitism in our own day of the kind that we hoped had ended with Hitler exists and indeed thrives in the Muslim world.

And the Muslim world is now in our world in Europe and so we have the Hitlerian horrors of anti-Semitism back. Well, I have no doubt you're right, Douglas, but one of the things that I think all of us have been struck by in recent weeks is that the pro-Palestine cause, let's put it in that language as they do, is very popular among young people. In fact, I'm sure you've seen the polls which show that young people believe that Hamas attack was genocidal and believe it was justified on the basis of,

They are pro-genocide. It seems to be. And not all of those people are young Muslims in this country. Some of them are not. How did that happen? Fantastic ignorance. I mean, does anyone round this table or anyone watching honestly think that we have a generation that is well-educated?

Too-shay. I mean, find me the teacher or find me the professor at any university in the last 50 years who would say to you, Every year the undergraduates come up, the students come up, and they just know more and more each year. Maybe in certain sciences you could say in a particular field. You couldn't say it about the humanities at all. You couldn't say it in most fields.

Certainly people don't come up every year knowing more and more history. The reason why the young people you talk about believe this is because they have been fed a form of indoctrination. and a particular version of the history, which effectively, as you both know, maps on a very specific and perverted version of American racial history and maps it on to absolutely everything in the rest of the world.

Add to that a particular form of anti-colonial history, post-colonial history, whatever you want to call it, which knows nothing of colonialism but knows only about the post-colonial world. And you also see that that is mapped onto the Middle East. So these people who talk about Israel and probably couldn't point to it on a map, they certainly don't know which river they mean

when they chant from the river to the sea. They couldn't find that on a map, that's for sure. From the river to the sea, of course I've chanted it. Do I think that all Israelis should be pushed out of the country or Jews or should be treated like this? No. Do you know which river and sea they're talking about, by the way? I know the Mediterranean.

and it would be the sea, but now I wouldn't know that right, but no. Okay, that's... Yeah. Okay, perfect, thank you. These people talk in what terms? They basically fall into two groups. They talk in terms of occupation, colonizers, apartheid. This is the Americanized racial justice version of this,

mapped onto the Middle East. But the Israelis are colonized. for instance, and that they're indigenous peoples. And the Palestinians are the indigenous peoples, despite there being Jews in the land many years before anyone even came up with the term Palestinian, which is a disputed term anyway. So they come up with this idea, for instance, that they're indigenous people who were moved out.

The Palestinians are indigenous people, and they were moved out by the Jews, the Israelis, the Zionists. And this version is, of course, a replay of that version of America. in history, which is there with the idyllic, Edenic first populations of America, the indigenous peoples, and then people from Europe came the wicked Spanish and Italians and Portuguese and the French and even the British

come and do their thing. And so they just put this version of history onto the Middle East. To those people, I would say, fine. You can do that if you want. Now let's do Britain. Want to play that game? You sure?

You better not get the British started. Tell me more, Douglas. What do you mean? You want to play the indigenous people own the land first game and the other people should fuck off? Well, it's 70 years of mass migration into the UK. Who are the indigenous peoples of the UK? People who've been here the longest. Who are the settlers? Who are the illegal settlers in Britain? Oh, well, that would be the people who've arrived. Does anyone want to go there? Well, you see, Douglas, I think what you're saying,

is logically sound, as you know. But I was very struck by something, we haven't released this episode yet, but we had a conversation with Michael Malice when we were an American. And he said to me, Constantine, you've got to realize at some point that these people do not use language to communicate.

They use language to manipulate. Sure. And so what you are saying makes sense, except they would say, well, no, what do you mean? You are straight, why, or would not stray, why, or whatever you are, right? I'm a blue-haired lesbian non-binary black woman. That's not how they see you, Douglas.

Well, I self-identified. Yes. And the oppressed people are the people with more melanin in their skin. Well, they should speak to the Yemeni Jews. They should speak to the Ethiopian Jews. They wouldn't even know what I was talking about. They can look it up. They can educate themselves.

The point I'm trying to make to you is, we have a narrative in this country certainly the native population or certainly the longest living here in the native population they are the oppressors and you know that all of this is about this oppressor or press dynamics so your argument in their world doesn't work well the girls in rotherham and everyone everywhere else in britain who were raped by the thousands by Pakistani rape gangs in the last 20 years were not the oppressors were they I would say that they were the oppressed but let me return

turn to the second class of person who is of the left of the kind that I was mentioning, the second class of critic of Israel. And we learn a lot from this. What are the other accusations that they put apart from the Americanized social justice versions? What are the other versions of this that they put on it? They say, the Israelis are committing genocide, that the Israelis are like the Nazis that the Israelis was bad as Hitler. Now, what is this?

First of all, we have to hit on the head idea that the Israelis are completing genocide, which is rife out there. It would be the only genocide in history in which the population massively expanded during said alleged genocide.

The population of Gaza has shot up in the last 18 years since Israel withdrew. So you could say that they are extremely unsuccessful genocides, or people who would like to commit genocide but haven't managed to, for some reason. But none of the analysis of what is actually happening, and I and anyone else who has travelled through the region widely can tell you this. It is nothing like, for instance, what Bashar al-Assad has done to the Syrian people over the last 13 years. It's nothing like what has been happening in Yemen in the last decade. It is anything approaching a genocide that is happening in the West Bank or Gaza.

So why do they say it? Second, why do they say like Hitler? Third, why do they say like the Nazis? These young people have been brought up with only one bit of knowledge from history, which is Nazis. And if you only know about one thing from history, it's likely that you will decide that the whole of history and the whole of the current day

can fall into two groups of people and be analyzed by the lens of this one thing. Hitler, not Hitler. Unfortunately, these young people are throwing out the only nasty accusation they know and they are picking it up from people who are handing them the nastiest thing that they could say. Why do I say that? They are picking up from mainly Muslim, pro-Palestinian voices and pro Hamas voices and others, these allegations,

which come from the Muslim world against the Jewish state because the Muslim world knows how much it will wound the Jews. That's why they say that. They say, the Jews are just like the Nazis because they know how much that would hurt any Jew. Now, these young people who pick up these arguments, knowingly or otherwise, are repeating this slur on the Jewish people

and some of them will know how much that hurts the Jews and will not mind. Some of them may not know how much that hurts the Jewish people. Why do they keep, why do these so-called pro-Palestinian peoples keep saying that it's just like the Warsaw Ghetto in Gaza? Why choose the Warsaw Ghetto? Why not choose something not involving Jews? Why not choose anything else from the history of the world? First of all, by the way, it's not a very good comparison, is it?

Because when the war saw, when people manage to escape briefly from the Jews, Warsaw Ghetto. Their first thing was not to run out and behead the first child they could find. But park that for a moment. Why do they choose the Warsaw Ghetto? Because they want to hurt Jews. They want to hurt them as deeply as they can. Here's the other thing. If you have this great mistake of thinking that the whole world can be divided into Hitler and not Hitler, these kids and kids they are, are going to discover if they have their way that they were Hitler. Why do I say that? Because if their chant came true and from the River Jordan to the Mediterranean Sea, Palestine, which is to say a state which is Udenrhein, because Mahmoud Abbas, the head of the Palestinian Authority,

as well as Hamas, who of course have been running, if you can call it, at that, the Gaza for the last 13 years, since they killed the Palestinian Authority representatives in Gaza. Both Mahmoud Abbas, the head of the allegedly moderate PA, and Hamas, both agree that Palestine must be Jew free. There is no scenario in the heads of the Palestinian Authority or of Hamas in which one Jew is allowed to live in the Palestinian state. so if from the river to the sea a Palestinian state is created it will mean either the eradication of all Jews in Israel or the displacement of all Jews in Israel

which means carting out every Jew from their historic homeland and either killing them or sending them somewhere else and that would be done in the name of being anti-Nazi these people have a huge problem coming their way if they get their way they're ignorant as hell and they will have to hope to God that they never get what they say they want

and Douglas this is one of the things that has really struck me because the Israel-Palestan issue we've had people on the show to talk about it but it's honestly not something that I have really paid a huge amount of attention to. I say that with some regret now, but nonetheless. What has struck me is I don't understand the double standards that seem to apply to Israel. I'd never really paid attention to and therefore I haven't. But I don't understand. I mean, we're talking now about proportionality. They always do as long as it involves Israel. And I haven't understood what that means exactly

because I don't think Israel would want to go into Gaza and butcher innocent civilians in the way that Hamas did. And also, in a war, proportionality is moronic. You're trying to win. Yeah, of course. So why are people calling for proportionality? Because they want Israel to lose. That's all.

The international community always does this. There's not much love lost across much of the world for Israel, for the same reasons as I described much of the Muslim world not having much love for Israel, becomes the whipping boy, the scapegoat of the international community. You know, the joke that the UN should have a football team. Who would they play? Israel, obviously.

There was a vote at the UN the other day a few days ago, which simply called for one thing, which was the international condemnation of the Hamas massacres of the 7th of October. It didn't pass. Didn't pass. The UN couldn't bring itself to vote to condemn the massacre of the 7th of October. And when it was announced in the hall that hadn't passed,

there was much whooping and clapping. Now, we've seen this before, of course. In 1975, there was a resolution at the United Nations in New York, that Zionism is racism. one of those proposing this motion was Idi Amin, fine upstanding gentleman. A good guy. And again, people watching who don't know who Idi Amin is, educate yourself. And the evening that the vote was put to the UN, a drinks reception was held at the United Nations for those voting that Zionism was racism.

and who was hosting the drinks party, Kurt Waldheim. Again, people can look him up. Kurt Waldheim is the former Chancellor of Austria. He was a member of an SS battalion in World War II. So, the United Nations has been here before. Plenty of times. The United Nations can never bring itself to condemn anything unless it involves Israel. And that is a pathology of the United Nations.

But we have seen all of this before. many, many times, too many times to count ever since the foundation of the state. And that comes to one of the simple problems of, and I'm sorry, but we have to bring it up, anti-Semitism. One of the simple problems about anti-Semitism is, as everybody who knows about it knows,

is that it's a shape-shifting virus. At one point in the history of Europe, in the history of our own country, the Jews were hated because they were poor, and then they were hated because they were rich. They were hated for not integrating and then they were hated for integrating. In the era where you could hate people for their religion,

they were hated for their religion. Then when that not became impossible in Europe, you couldn't hate people for their religion, they were hated for their race. Then at a particular point in Europe, we discovered we couldn't hate people for their race anymore. So what did we hate people for if they were Jewish? We hated them for being stateless.

Then the Jewish people got a state and they were hated for having a state. Now, you cannot tell me in this situation that there's a coincidence here. It is not a coincidence that every way you do it, it ends up like that. And great figures, including somebody I've quoted a lot in recent days and weeks, Vasily Grossman, the great Russian novelist, the author of Life and Fate, among other works. And everything flows. He said everything, everything comes from this.

And, of course, the great thing that Grossman said, the heart of his part, great novel in those few pages where he writes about anti-Semitism about the dark heart of the 20th century as he goes from Stalingrad to Treblinka. The great pages in which Grossman takes the time out to talk about

anti-Semitism in the midnight of the 20th century. He says of course that he says some of what I've just said about anti-Semitism being a shape-shifting virus because of course Hitler had it is rather well known but Stalin ended up with it

as well. I mean, it goes every direction everywhere. But as Grossman greatly says, the thing about it is that it tells you about the person who suffers from it, not about the Jews. He says, tell me what you accuse the Jews of. I'll tell you what you're guilty of. People who hate the Jews for being religious have religious problems themselves. People who hate the fact that Jews have a state that they're willing to defend, have a problem with defending their own state themselves, and much, much more on and on and on. The thing that, and I've made this point in previous interview,

so I have a grandfather originally from Lebanon, Coptic Christian, but he was an anti-semit. And people don't understand, when people comment in the West, they don't understand the depths of hatred that exists in that region. And when I say the word hatred, I mean it in its true sense of the way. word. People in the West, they don't understand that emotion

in a way that it's expressed over there. They don't anymore. They could do in the years to come, yeah. And to the point that you then have people opining about it, and I just look at them and I go, you have no idea of what you were talking about. You have no idea, you have no concept. You're applying a Western lens to judge a problem or an issue, which is not Western. Yeah, well, Israel, in the era that we've grown up,

Israel suffers from being able to protect itself. Something that Europeans will not forgive it for. And many people in the West will not forgive it for. By the way, there's a fascinating thing in that because, of course, I mean, Israelis really do try to protect their borders, really do take it seriously when their borders are, are made porous, and they really do try to adhere as a nation. They try to defend themselves as a nation.

They, of course, have the draft, so everybody is involved in the defense of the nation. And this is all stuff that Europeans in particular think is in the past. We're past borders, we're past defense, we're past armies, you know. The MOD and the Minister of Defense in the UK, you know, effectively operates as an NGO. And it does things like, you know, it's a bit like that Hillary Clinton thing where she said a little while ago, the first victims of war are women.

I'm quite sure about that, I think. I think they are, of course, victims of war. Tends to be the first victims of war, the men who are fighting and dying. But anyway, there's a bit of the MOD currently that's obsessed with the issue of women in conflict. The British Armed Forces, if you remember, I mean, basically they have a recruitment halt on white men at the moment because they have certain race and gender. and quotas they've got to get to by 2030, which means that you can only do it.

If you force a lot of women into roles in the front line, they don't always want and stop white men signing up. So we are in a conflict, Britain, just totally confused about all of this. We don't have serious people, or not very many serious people, and haven't had for some time. And the Israelis do have to be serious. and as we were reminded on the 7th of October, you know, when things go wrong

and something went very, many, many things went very badly wrong, but they have to respond. I mean, what did we do in Britain when 23 young women were blown up in a suicide bombing at the Manchester Arena? We crooned, don't look back, and we're all diverted by the media who told us, don't look back in anger.

So the idea that we know what to do in this situation is nonsense. We see the Israelis, struggling through things that we struggled for in history, and certain numbers of people dislike them for having to struggle through that still. Didn't you know we're in this era where we just sing Kumbayaar after we're attacked?

And the one that always stood out for me, actually even more so than the Manchester bombings in that act of terrorism, was the murder of Sir David Amos. Oh, yeah, well, that was just memory-holded by his own colleagues in the most shameless way. Killed by a jihadist who sat beside his body,

very pleased with his work. And if you listened to the debate in the House the next day or a couple of days later in memory of Sir David Amos, who was killed, what, just over two years ago? If you listened to the debate in the House, you'd have thought he died of natural causes. I think his colleagues behaved shamefully. They all said how much they wanted to pay tribute to his memory.

Well, they didn't. They didn't. They betrayed his memory. He was killed by somebody who was an Islamic extremist, supremacist, gihadists. Call him what you want. The whole of the House of Commons covered for that. Now, some people said to me,

Douglas, you cannot point this out. You might jeopardize the trial. The reason they're not saying this is because they don't want to say these things ahead of the trial. This man is simply the suspect. The one you found covered in Mr. David's blood beside the body. Yes, of course, he's still a suspect. He mustn't prejudge from the motives. We'll put that discussion off for another.

time. When is the other time? The other time is after the sentencing. Oh, good, I look forward to it. After the sentencing. Anything? Crickets. In this country, in Britain, we can't seem to summon up the guts to talk about this any time, anytime. And you know why? Because no one knows what to do. I would say it's because they're scared, Douglas, if I'm honest. They're terrified. Because part of them a thinking and they look at Sir David and I actually met Sir David. He was a wonderful man. Lovely man.

An English eccentric in the best sense of the word. But they're looking at him and they've sat down and they've eaten lunch with him and they've drunk with him and they think shit, that could be me. Well you know what? Joe Cox was also killed by an extremist.

A lone wolf madman who seems to have been inspired by some kind of neo-Nazi ideology and one of these kind of loser, fringe of the most fringe people. And I don't remember after Joe Cox's murder, people saying let's not prejudge why the murderer did it, or let's not spread any blame around.

I don't remember that. I missed that. There was an awful lot of spreading of blame around. They tried to blame everybody who was about to vote Brexit for the murder. They wanted to blame the whole. leave EU campaign for the murder. So I didn't see any lack of prejudging there, but I also didn't notice that MPs were quiet

in identifying the ideology of the man who had murdered their colleague. So why did they not fear gangs of neo-Nazi men coming around and stabbing and decapitating MPs in the name of neo-Nazism? because it's not a very big thing in Britain despite the bogeyman's holding out of neo-Nazis as always being about to take over. Don't forget, of course, we live in a country

where the left, the Guardian and others repeatedly described Suella Braverman as far right. So, although they use that language, they clearly don't believe it or mean it, because they would be fearful. I mean, I don't doubt, of course, many MPs and many I've spoken to from the Labour Party and elsewhere were very, very shocked by Joe Cox's murder.

and it was deeply, deeply shocking. But I think that most people have recognized there are not very many people in Britain actually likely to follow, I hope, that murder of Joe Cox is an extreme mad ideology. There was certainly nobody in the country who would cover for him

or say, well, he had a point or anything like that. Nobody wanted to be near that filth. But why do they not identify it in this case and why are they fearful in this case? Because they know that the problem exists and is bigger than they want to admit. Now, there's a problem. We'll be back with our guest in a minute.

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We've met the people at GiveSend Go and we can tell you that they're absolutely aligned with trigonometry on our approach to free speech. They don't just talk the talk, they walk the walk, unlike other big tech companies. They, like us, believe that with openness and honesty, will create more understanding and ultimately more harmony in the world. GiveSend Go is absolutely free to use. With other crowdfunding sites, you'll pay between 5% and 10% of the money you raise. GiveSENGo charge no money at all to use their platform.

They believe you should be able to keep all the money you raise. On GiveSeng Go, you can choose to raise funds for short or long-term campaigns, whether you're in the USA, UK, Australia, or anywhere in the world. GiveSeng Go supports freedom of speech. They won't cave to the mob, and that's why we are proud to partner with them. Starting a campaign on GiveSeng Go is easy and intuitive. Go to givsenko.com today, start raising money for whatever's important to you, and support the people who support freedom. Now, back to the interview.

I agree with you. I also agree with Francis, but I agree with you. The reason people don't want to say anything is they don't know what to do. And I've spent the last three weeks, I said it in the speech that I gave it up, in a pretty dark place. because I like to think I'm a pretty clever guy. I talk to people like you who are way more clever than me and to many others. And I say to them the same thing.

How does this get fixed? Because what I see is we have an open border. And there is, despite the fact there was a poll done in recent weeks which showed that 92% of conservative voters and 70% of labor voters, which was higher than I expected, support deporting people who glorified.

terrorism. And yet we sit here, all three of us, knowing full well, as everybody watching this does, that despite the fact that we have a quote-unquote far-right government, that is never, ever going to happen. Well, it might not happen under this government, but it'll happen one to one in the future. The first thing is the British public is totally right.

I do not want to live in a country with Hamas supporters. I want them deported. I want them chucked out. Simple, and I will do everything I can to ensure that happens. I am fed up, by the way, of the centrist dad hand-ringing era where people say, oh, but might it be against our liberal values and might our liberalism, I'm not as interested in that as I am in Britain remaining Britain. I am much more interested in that. At every time of national emergency in our nation's history,

we gave something up to survive. We did in the Napoleonic wars, we did in the wars of the 20th century, and we will have to now. This is the thing we give up, extending tolerance to people who do not extend it back to us. It should be over that era. The first person who must be deported from the UK and have his citizenship withdrawn is a man called Mohamed Sawalha who lives in North London. I am happy to start handing out his address if need be. Muhammad Suwalha is a former military commander of Hamas in the West Bank. He has been living peacefully in the UK, that is undisturbedly, I should say,

undisturbed in the UK for many years now. Under the last Labour government, he seems to have got UK citizenship. Now, to get UK citizenship, you have, among other things, to show that you're a person of good character. I would submit that if you are a military commander of Hamas, you are not a person of good character. Now, what is to be done about this man? He is currently not in the UK. He is in Istanbul, and again, I'm very happy to give out his location, should people want it. I do not want that man back in my country.

I don't want him here. If he arrives back here, he should be arrested and deported. Now, I'd also like him to go to the Gaza. Muhammad Suwahlha should not be in the UK. The name of this man is now out there. It was put on the front page of the Sunday time a couple of weeks ago. I immediately got my lawyers to write to the Home Secretary, the Prime Minister, the Director of Public Prosecutions

and the Attorney General saying that if they do not prosecute him, I will get a prosecution myself. This man cannot live in my country. He will be the first, and we will see how many more need to come after him. He should not have British citizenship, We do not want him here. We have not benefited from his being here. Let me throw one other name straight out there who should be on the same list. A man called Mohajarani, the former deputy

Prime Minister of Iran. He lives in Harrow. Again, I'm very happy to start giving his address out. Why does he live in Leifie Harrow, this man? We don't know. The last Labour government gave him right to remain in the UK. Who is Mahajirani? Two things might be of interest. One. he was the man who the Ayatollah Khomeini got to write the book-length justification of the fatwa calling for the murder of the British novelist Salman Rushdie. Why is Salman Rushdie's life in such peril and has been since Valentine's Day, 1989, and Mohajurani lives peacefully in leafy harrow? I don't want him to. Second, apart from justifying and calling for the murder of a British novelist, Mohajurani was also involved in the prison massacres of leftists and communists in Iran in the 1980s.

One of his former colleagues has been prosecuted for war crimes in a European court in the last year. I see no reason why Mohajirani should not also be prosecuted under the same crimes. Why should we live with these people? Why should they be here? My forebears didn't fight off generation after generation of enemies, only to have these enemies given the right to remain here. we'd have no need of them. Our country has not benefited from them.

Get them out. Get them out. And if the government will not do it, at some point the people will do it. And I would submit that will be much ugly. And it's, you know, at one point, Douglas, I would have said, you know, this is too far. But the thing, even above the Sir David Amos and they're coming as a former teacher, the thing that really opened my eyes to the cowardice within our institutions was the Batley Grammar School case.

Yes, absolutely. Shameful. And the capitulation of the union, the refusal to stand by their member, which is a working-class tradition going back generations. One of the finest traditions of the unions. And they just abdicated responsibility. And it just shows, for me, that there is very, very, few people in power who've got the backbone to be willing to tackle this. I think that's right.

Well, the people who do want to tackle it will come to power. Well, Douglas, this is a thing that has been discussed, and I want to raise with you. I mean, I agree with you. And I saw Ron DeSantis, the American presidential candidate. He gave a speech in which he said, the point of immigration is to bring people who are going to benefit our country. And I thought, I haven't heard. heard someone say that for about 20 years. In the UK.

Yeah, quite. Which to me seems like a fairly uncontroversial statement, actually. But the argument that I see going around on the line, I mean, these people specifically that you're talking about, I think few would argue about it. Oh, I bet they would. Anyway, well, if they don't argue about it,

why not do it? Quite. And I want to come back to that as well. But the one thing I see is, particularly American commentators, say, well, look, the right in particular has been banging on about free speech endlessly, and then you have these people go out in a protest, and suddenly everyone's saying they should be deported. What do you say to those people? First of all, not everyone's saying they should be

deported. A small number of us are. Yeah, I have some friends on the sort of libertarian right, as it were, as well as people on the left who say, but you're such a free speech activist. How could you deny the rights of free speech to people who simply want to, to stand outside synagogues taunting Jews for the murder of their fellow Jews. This is not a practice of free speech. It's not an interesting test case of free speech. It's very straightforward.

Throughout our history, as I mentioned earlier, we have repeatedly been willing to say that certain things trump our most cherished values and the main one is our ability to survive. I would say that at the moment, we are at a very important point, not least with policing in the UK. The protests that have taken place in recent weeks

and the protests that have already been announced for the weeks ahead have been a great test for the Metropolitan Police and other police forces across the UK, and it is a test that they have failed monumentally. Now, I know the policing decision they've made. Part of the policing decision, clearly, is that they will observe the crowd and they will see if anyone breaks the law,

and if they do break the law, they may get a visit at some point later from the police, and they may be arrested. This happened in the 2000s with Anjim Chaudhry and the group members of Al-Mu-Hourn. It was a very similar thing. There was once actually an occasion when Al-Mu-Jurun came for me personally in the streets of London,

and I was amazed that the British police didn't do more to protect me or, well, anyway. And it turned out that they were doing the same thing. which is they hang back in order to arrest people later. Well, here's the problem with that. The world only sees the crime being committed. The world does not see the follow-up. The world is very interested

and watching the streets of London at the moment and are horrified by what they see. They do not see the tiny number of arrests that the Metropolitan Police has been willing to actually carry out of people who are supporting Hamas on our streets. And not only that, by the way, Douglas, we saw a couple of years ago

people who drove down from Blackburn, quite far away from London, to go into Jewish areas and through megaphones, shout, rape Jewish women, those people were arrested, and not prosecuted. Yes.

Maybe they should have tweeted it. Yeah, they should have called them What was a crime that Lawrence Fox committed again? That brought the whole world crashing down a few weeks ago. They should have said they wouldn't shag them,

which is the opposite of what they seem to be. They should have gone through Jewish areas saying I wouldn't shagg them. That would have got the police interested and probably off-com. That would have got the Guardian going for months. My God, we've been diverted, haven't we? here's the thing the police are also of course in this strange case of several cases we now have on camera of the police taking down the posters of missing stolen jewish children that have been put up in london and other places

and as well as being ripped down by muslims in the UK and leftists in the UK they've also now been taken down by police in the UK we have footage of the metropolitan police taking down these posters two things about that if I may the first is we should follow the example of some blue-collar workers in New York and elsewhere in America recently who have found these scumbags taking down posters and confronted them if the police are not going to confront people

ripping down posters and trying to hurt Jews on the streets of Britain again I would like the public to do so and I think the public should start to do so and that is what will happen if the police did not protect the public the public will have to start protecting the public The second thing... May I just on that?

Sure. Aren't we being slightly dishonest that, Douglas, the demographic situation in the UK is very different. I don't know that if I was to challenge somebody in the street doing that, that I frankly at this point would have the support of the people around me. I wonder if I might find myself in a minority. Okay, well, what will happen at some point is that a group of people who are in a majority will come down from some other part of the UK and they'll do it themselves.

And who would say that that was a bad thing? At this point, yeah? At this point, if this is all on the table, oh, they're going to regret it. The police are going to deeply regret this. So that's the first thing. The second thing is, and let me be as clear as possible on this, the police clearly seem to think in the UK

that the big problem is that it is provocative to put up posters of abducted Jewish children, and that is because it will provoke community tensions. This, by the way, is not a fringe view. It is a view clearly shared by a number of politicians across the UK, most prominently certain Muslim politicians across the UK. Here, let us be totally frank.

If there are people in the UK who are offended by the posters of missing Jewish children, they must leave the UK. We do not want them. It is not Jews who should be fearful in the UK. It is the people who would make Jews fearful. They must leave. It is shameful to me that in the last few weeks I have had friends from around the world,

including Jewish friends, saying, is it safe any longer to come to England, to come to Britain, specifically to come to London? It is not Jews who should fear being in London. It is the people who would make them fearful. so at some point the Jews who are a very small minority in the UK a little over 200,000 they are dwarfed by the large size of the Muslim community in the UK at the moment

but fine the non-Muslim population of the UK is far larger and by and large in my experience they are very good people the British still have pride in their past that has not been beaten out of them they still have a sense of the goodness of our nation, of the pride of our nation, of what it has done in the past that we should be grateful for and proud of, and what it might still do now. Despite decades of indoctrination to try to tell us that we are wicked,

that is really only believed by a small number of people who happen to have control of many of the major institutions and who have a disproportionate voice in the media and a disproportionate present in what used to be called academia. Fine. We'll do that. this without them. Do you not worry, Douglas, that with what you're saying that we're going to be pretty soon, not that you're advocating, I want to make that clear, that we're going to be on the path to a pretty unpleasant government pretty soon? Well, we've got Stama, of course, but that's a different

thing. What we have is, this will all be suppressed again and again and again until you can't suppress it anymore. And it will not be a matter of, you. And it will not be a matter of, party affiliation or parties in power, it'll simply start to happen on the streets. The British public are being pushed beyond our endurance. And if we are waiting for a political outlet, I think that a large number of people will start to think we don't have a political outlet. The Home Secretary and the government say things, and yet they do not happen. The Labour Party say things and promised things, and yet they do not happen.

I'm old enough to remember when the last Labor government whilst ratcheting up mass immigration into the UK talked about the dangers of mass immigration. I well remember people like, what is his name? There was a Labour Immigration Minister in about 2007 who gave a front-page interview to the Times of London which he talked about the downsides of multiculturalism, how everything had gone wrong with it,

and we needed to get control of our borders. We've heard these people from right and left, labor and conservative. None of them ever do what they say, and it seems in parties because they can't. So I very much fear, again, as you say, I'm not advocating it, I'm observing it. I very much fear that in the years ahead, this is past the parties. More people are members of the Birdwatchers Association of the UK than belong to all of the nation's political parties. So clearly people don't believe the political parties are the way forward or able to do anything. or anything much.

So we'll see what's happened. But, you know, the public didn't get us here. I was asked by a senior member of the BBC shortly after the atrocities of 2017 what I thought had gone wrong and why the BBC and others were now incapable of speaking to the general public and were missing the general public.

And I remember this person said to me, what should we do, Douglas? And I said, it's a bit late now, isn't it? I said, I feel when you ask me this and expect my answer like somebody who has been pushed deliberately into a swimming pool in their full clothing and then asked why they're wet. I didn't want to be here. I didn't want my nation to be here.

But we've been pushed here. We'll see what we do. Douglas, I want to ask you about the role of the BBC and the media more generally, but we'll continue this conversation on locals. We'll do about 40 minutes or so on there because we've done almost an hour here. So follow us over there. Dave the Kiwi says we need people like Constantine and Douglas representing the UK in public office. Has it ever crossed the minds of either of them to stand as MPs?