TRIGGERnometry - Dr John Gray: How to Save Your Relationship During Coronavirus Lockdown

Episode Date: April 8, 2020

John Gray is an American relationship counsellor, lecturer and author of Men Are from Mars, Women Are from Venus. Support TRIGGERnometry: Paypal: https://bit.ly/2Tnz8yq https://www.subscribestar.com/triggernometry https://www.patreon.com/triggerpod Find TRIGGERnometry on Social Media:  https://twitter.com/triggerpod https://www.facebook.com/triggerpod https://www.instagram.com/triggerpod About TRIGGERnometry:  Stand-up comedians Konstantin Kisin (@konstantinkisin) and Francis Foster (@failinghuman) make sense of politics, economics, free speech, AI, drug policy and WW3 with the help of presidential advisors, renowned economists, award-winning journalists, controversial writers, leading scientists and notorious comedians. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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I'm Francis Foster. I'm Constantine Kisson. And this is the show for you if you want honest conversations with fascinating people. Our brilliant guest this week is one of the world's most renowned, relationship experts. He wrote a book a very long time ago and many since called Men are from Mars, women are from Venus, a book that I and my wife personally found very useful. Dr. John Gray, welcome to Trigonometry. Oh, really happy to be with you. Thank you so much for coming on the show. There's really a couple of things we wanted to talk about later in the interview. We want to

get onto this time of lockdown with the coronavirus. How do you maintain your relationship? How do you not get divorced in this time and whatever else your personal goals might be. Well, yeah, you know, in China, when people are released, the divorce rate has dramatically gone up because people are confined together. We need our own independence as well as connection. Just as important as connection is, we need separation. And with no separation, it brings up all kinds of issues that are actually will be remedied if we understand the dynamics of how to live in a space and create distance without fights. The arguments serve a purpose. I want to push you away for a while so I can come back to myself. There's other ways to do it without the arguments

because that then builds mistrust and that leads to divorce and lack of appreciation. So we're going to get into that today. Yeah, we'd love to get into that towards the second half of the interview. But the first thing, you know, we're called trigonometry because we like to explore controversial and difficult ideas. One of the things that you didn't need perhaps to cover in your first book in 1992, when you talked about the differences between men and women, it was probably widely accepted at the time that they exist. And one of the things that seems to have happened since is with, you know, the culture war and everything else. That in itself has become a controversial issue. And your latest books talk very much about the hormonal differences between men. and women, the brain differences between men and women. So why is it important to recognize

those differences and how do you use those to create more harmonious relationships? Well, that was a nice review of the last 30 years. I summed it up into one sentence, yeah. Yeah, that's where it's saving time there. You know, when I started, I started talking about gender differences in 1982. Okay, and back then it was more controversial. You know, you say, You know, you say people understood the differences, but what we had was in 1982, we had the whole 80s, I'm sorry, the whole 70s and 60s to build up this body of knowledge that was starting to say that something's wrong with men. They should be more like women and women should be more like men. And that was what might call radical feminism.

You know, I'm a feminist in terms of not radical. I'm for equality. I'm for supporting women tremendously. Women have been majorly supportive of my book. And ironically, when men came out, men started reading this book. What my publishers told me is like a phenomenon, men buy your book just as much as women. Because it supports, you know, men and being okay with themselves, women learning to understand men. So suddenly men are not these bad guys.

But when you don't know how to support a man or correctly interpret a man, then what happens is you feel, unloved, you feel hurt, you know, the big theme of men or from ours was we men go to our man cave. You know, that became a national phenomena for men from Mars is all men have a man cave. And that changed relationships dramatically. Prior to that, after feminism, it was like if a man's not like a woman wanting to connect all the time, share and open his feelings and so forth, then something's wrong with him. He's dysfunctional. So certainly, this is an interesting thing. certainly there's some men, just as there's some women who are dysfunctional. I mean, the world is filled with great people and dysfunctional people, but when men need their cave time, it's not

dysfunctional. It's just that when women grew up with a father who was dysfunctional, not available, they were so hurt by that, by his mistreatment, as opposed to him needing cave time, cave time, which is men need to pull away. So really, in the beginning, I had women who would get mad at me and yell and scream at me and interrupt my seminars with screams. Some men would get, how dare you say this? You know, I should be more, I'm not going to be like my father and take my cave time. I should always be there for women. So it wasn't just women, but also men.

And that's what drove me to find the metaphor of men are from Mars, women are from Venus. Because when you use that metaphor, there's kind of a chuckle. Yeah, where's my husband from? And I remember when I came up with that, it was two years. of teaching gender differences when I realized we had got off track. The universities were teaching psychology, and there's so many good ideas in psychology, but then it got twisted. And it got twisted.

There's something wrong with men. We need to change men, and we don't understand men, but we think we know what they should be. And men basically don't understand women. We never really have pride in that we do. You know, always in the old days, I don't understand my wife, but I love her, okay? But what I was able to do with men for Mars is help men to understand women better. This is not about becoming denying who women are. It's understanding the better so I can understand how to provide even more support for women

because men will give their life for women. You know, that's what we do. We're the soldiers. We're the firemen. We're the guys that go out and do the dirty, difficult, dangerous jobs. That's what men are about. But the problem is when men don't feel a person. appreciated when there's no parades for the soldiers, you know, when there's no reward clapping

for the health care workers right now in my town every night at 8 o'clock, all the dogs are barking because all the people are playing loud music and they're cheering and they're making noises. It's appreciating those health care workers. We need to be fed if you're out there taking risks and doing dangerous things. But when men don't feel needed, they go down. And that's what's happening today is more dysfunctional men, primarily just because we're not bringing out the best in them by loving them and appreciating them and see the good in them. So we've kind of lost that. So when I came out with men from Mars, I had to find a playful way to do it. And people always say, you know, how did you come up with that idea? A necessity. I prayed. I'm very spiritual

person as well. Every day help me find a way to present this idea without people taking it personally, without people getting all mad about it, like I'm a sexist or something. And so I was teaching a seminar back in 1983. And I just seen E.T. You know, E.T. extraterrestrial was in everybody's mind at that time, a huge hit movie. And I was a bunch of women in an audience, some men. And I said, women, you have to imagine your husband's E.T. And I was saying that because I wanted them to recognize, maybe it's okay for him to eat,

Reese's chocolates because he's from another planet. That was the idea is that E.T. would eat Reese's chocolates and that's what he needed. Whereas everybody thinks, oh, that's bad for you. That's bad for you. Don't give it to him. So I was going to make that point. I never did. Because as soon as I said, women, imagine your husband's E.T. They all broke into laughter. And then some woman, I think she was drunk. She goes, where's my husband from? Then I said, Mars. And oh, they laughed, they loved it. I went, thank you, God. The hairs on my arms stood up. I said, this is it. This is the answer. Be playful about it. That's one of the key things. You know, when people fall in love, they're playful. Then we get too serious. And one of the reasons we get

too serious is that our basic needs stop getting met. In the beginning, we anticipate our basic needs being met. We don't have to articulate them. We may not even know them. You know, when you, you know, part of being a health expert as well is we have all these needs for vitamins and nutrients. Most people don't know what they need. You could have scurvy because you're not getting a vitamin C. And you don't know. You go, why do I have scurvy? My point is when people are unhappy in relationships, they really don't know what they need, but they think they do. You know, if you've got scurvy, you think, oh, I need to eat a bunch of sugar. That's what I need because sugar feels so good. I need more ice cream. But if you don't get your vitamin C, you'll get a health

problem. So what I see today is people don't know what they need. And so they're looking for the wrong things. And why don't we know what we need? Culture used to teach us, but culture can no longer provide what we need or teach us what do we need and how to get it. You can't get something else you know you need it. Because the world has changed so much, our needs have changed. That's the whole key in my message now, beyond Mars and Venus. And that's how it's changed with all this gender neutrality, we have a greater need to understand our gender differences so that we can give ourselves what we need and so we can give our partners what they need in order to find the balance of the masculine and feminine inside of us. And John, so we were talking about, well, we touched on the

subject of hormones very, very briefly. And you were talking about what happens when men go down. Now, I've heard many of your podcasts and I've read a few of your books. And what you touch on with hormones is fascinating. Like in particular, what happens to the male body when you gets the breast, they start to produce eastrum, which then starts to produce aggressive behavior. Could you go into that a little bit for us, please? Yes, yeah, I love that. That's one of my favorite points in Beyond Mars Venus, because most people think testosterone,

the male hormone, and men have a lot more of it causes aggression, dysfunctional behavior. Actually, it's the female hormone estrogen. Any man who's aggressive has high estrogen at that moment and his testosterone levels are going down. And this is the opposite of what most people think. It was Stanford University around 2000, year 2000, they discovered this. But it's still not common knowledge. We still think, oh, masculinity causes dysfunction. Actually, it's when men are not feeling masculine.

They're more feminized that they either, they have this, their testosterone goes down, their estrogen goes up. And when that happens, these are some of the symptoms of it. Aggression is one symptom if we witnessed aggression as a child. A lot of this is conditioning in the brain. When we go out of balance, we go into fight or flight. If I'm a child and I saw aggression, it goes into my computer, so to my brain, then when I'm in fight or flight, I'll go into aggression. If my dad was basically more passive and was sulk and pull away, then I'll sulk and pull away.

But these are all imbalances caused by going into fight or flight, and that's a hormonal expression of cortisol. At that time, for men, their estrogen's going up. At that time for women, their testosterone is going up. So let's look at the foundation, and we can have fun with this, which is men basically need 10 to 30 times more testosterone than a woman to feel love. Okay, that's to feel good, to feel fulfilled, to feel your life. has meaning, your testosterone has to be up. Now, your life has to have meaning for your life, for your testosterone to go up. But we have this biological difference when I solve your problem, when I do something get paid for it, when I do something and people applaud, when I do something

and I save someone's life, that's a meaning on my masculine side. My testosterone will go up. I made a difference. If a woman is making a difference in her body, she makes testosterone as well. And testosterone feels good to both men and women, but it doesn't lower stress for women. What lowers stress for women is estrogen or progesterone. These are these two female hormones. And what helps her find that balance is another hormone called oxytocin. We'll talk more about those hormones, but these will just say for now, feminine hormones, masculine hormone.

And when we have well-being, those hormones are in balance. But when women today are doing traditional male jobs, and I'm not against that in any way, I'm not saying they shouldn't, when they're doing their traditional male jobs, they have to know they're producing testosterone and they're not making enough female hormones unless they have a personal life that stimulates more estrogen, more progester than their ancestors. So we have to change a whole new dynamic. How can women produce more estrogen progesterine if most of the day they're making testosterone? testosterone. And that's what my message is, is how can women come back to their female side? And men, we have a challenge. You know, when I was growing up, growing up in the 50s, I saw my dad going to work every day. I don't know what he did, but I knew that one day I was going to have to make all this money in order to support a family. And that was a pressure on me. But I had a role model

who taught me, I can do it. You can do it. Before I remember that pressure, oh, my God, I'm going to have to do that. Even watching them shave, I remember, how do I, how do I do that? But when you have a role model, then you have confidence, confidence in men and women increases testosterone. So the testosterone goes up. Then you have the power and the energy to accomplish and achieve. But what motivates men is the fire. There has to be a fire to put out. There has to be a problem to solve. There has to be a person in need in order to help them. Well, it used to be that women need. men. So if a woman was dependent on a man, his testosterone will grow up. That's how my testosterone grew up. If I want to be successful in the world and have a family and have a woman love me,

boy, I need to get it together. So that's motivation. Men need motivation to feel needed. And if women don't need men, what I'm in for? I don't need a man. So many women today, they can't fall in love because they don't feel they need a man. And they just, their hormones are out of balance. Because when testosterone goes up, you go, I don't need anybody. I can do it myself. And if you feel that as a man, you feel quite good about yourself. But almost every woman for 40 years that I've been counseling, almost every woman when she's unhappy, one of the first things she says is I explore her feelings and what's going on and help her to express herself is I do so much. There's no time. I have to do it all myself. I'm all by myself. My husband. My husband,

ignores me. He or if she's single, I just have to do everything myself. That is a major source of stress for women because when you feel I have to do it myself, nobody's going to do it for me. Testosterone goes up. When you feel, and this is, sociology teaches this now, when you're dependent on someone, your estrogen goes up. That's the magic hormone for women. For women to actually have an orgasm, their estrogen levels have to double, become 20 times higher than a man's estrogen levels. Do you mind if I just take notes at this point, John? You have Francis full and undivided attention.

Exactly. Well, that's what I do about talks. I see the men sort of wavering off. I say, now, my women have an orgasm. It is true. The women to want sex. See, so many may complain. My wife doesn't want sex.

My wife doesn't want sex. Now, I know there's many women listening, and they're going, well, my husband used to want sex. He doesn't want sex anymore. And I'll tell you why, one of the reasons he doesn't want sex anymore is because you're not having the orgasms of happiness and joy. And you're remembering those moments when you did have sex and you felt so good. And so when you say, I want to have sex and he doesn't, actually what you want is to feel those feelings that he generates in you. Because for a woman to double her estrogen levels, it takes a man.

Okay? Or if she's gay, it takes a skilled gay partner to take her to that level of double. her estrogen levels. But even with gay couples, you know, I live in the Bay Area, San Francisco, gays. I have lots of, I don't have lots, but I have some clients and so forth. What's very common is a lack of polarity. So let me start with polarity creates attraction. Opposites attraction. Sameness creates harmony. So what you want to have is relatedness, harmony, but also you have to have differences that fit together. And when couples lose their attraction, often they've given up their authentic self. Okay, that's very important. Men have stopped

being masculine. They're not making enough testosterone because for a man to be turned on, his testosterone to his wife, his testosterone levels have to go all the way up to normal and then they have to double to fully last a long time in sex. If his testosterone doesn't do, double, he's like the one minute guy, okay? But if he's got testosterone doubles, he's like the 10 minute intercourse guy, sometimes 20 minutes, and of course, for fun, you go for 10 hours, okay? That's control if you can do that. But most men can't, I don't teach how to do that, but what you just got double that testosterone is where you fully feel surrendered to her. You are no longer attached to ejaculating, okay? Because men go, oh, I want to come, I want to come.

I don't want to come. I want to last longer. Oh, but I want to come. So what happens, we lose control. It takes high testosterone in order to maintain that. But here's the rub. The more you love a woman, your estrogen levels go higher. Love is estrogen.

You see, for you to feel I need you, that's estrogen. So it's a woman's fault, basically, John. Well, you've got to have skill as a man to help bring her higher, and then when she goes higher, she brings you higher. It's reciprocal. So yeah, we can say it's her fault, but she could say it's our fault. Right. John, one of the things I'm hearing kind of as a broad thing behind everything you're saying is it's,

it has become due to the changes in the world. It has become harder for men to be happy and it has become harder for women to be happy. Is that fair to say? Yeah, it's a good summary. And this is kind of the explanation why it's harder for couples to be happier and why it's harder for couples to stay attracted to each other. Now, the truth is, now we go back to more traditional relationships where the culture said men should only do testosterone things, women should do estrogen things. Those couples also ran out of passion. They ran out of passion because they

didn't have the higher needs that I'm about to talk about. Because when you want to maintain passion. Like right now, you see the passion coming out of me because I'm expressing my authentic self. I'm expressing both parts of me. My masculine side, I'm skilled, I'm disciplined, I've worked really hard to know what I know, I'm confident, I'm making a difference. All those things pump up my testosterone. I also have complete trust and relaxation and I'm happy. And also I appreciate you guys and letting me talk. So that's my estrogen goes up. I love what I do and I do it well. That means testosterone goes up and estrogen goes up and that is a higher need gets produced as a need to self-actualized in selfless service to the world.

Or it starts with selfless service to your wife, which is what you get a glimpse of when you propose to her. What happens when you propose? A woman glows with love. Francis, pay attention at this point, man. He's been putting it off for years. The most masculine thing at that moment where a man proposes, this is so interesting. What is the tradition? The men kneels before her. See, that's where you honor the woman. You're kneeling.

You're selfless. Basically, you're saying, I serve you. And what is the greatest moment in sex? You know, I use the teach these just, I still do seminars on sex. And what we did back in the early late 70s when I taught sex before, gender difference, what happened then is I just had a lot of sex, but I used to interview women before I'd have sex. Look, I spend a lot of time telling you what's wrong with the world, so let me tell you about

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Go to avocado green mattress.com slash trigger to check out their mattress and furniture sale. That's avocado green mattress.com slash trigger. avocado green mattress.com slash trigger. This has gone in a completely different direction than I expected it to carry on, John. Okay, I'll tell you something very funny. You might joke on this. I was a monk for nine years purely celibate.

And then I started teaching classes on sex. And you go, how does a monk teach classes on sex? I love sex. I was very active sexually as a teenager. Then the Beatles got into meditation. So they were like my role model. So I got into meditation, became a monk, very spiritual. I love it.

I still meditate every day. I love it, love it, love it. But during those days of celibacy, never masturbated for nine years in my 20s. Yeah, you can do that. You can learn to do that. Yeah, Francis. Yes, Francis. It's possible.

Just because you got a big erection, doesn't mean you got to release it. you celebrate it, but you don't release that energy. Then the energy goes up into your brain. You have these spiritual experiences. But then when I left being a monk, my brother was bipolar, so I needed to like study psychology. Meditation didn't help him. So I felt I can't be so happy if my brother's suffering.

So anyway, so I left being a monk, came out in the world, study psychology. And then, of course, if you haven't had sex in nine years, all you think about is sex. So I had one woman after another woman after another one. It was so much fun for me. I traveled around my little car, spending the night with women. I'd read their palm.

And then I'd say, you know, I've been a monk for nine years. And I really need to understand sex. Would you teach me? So because I was a monk, I had permission to ask. And women would tell me all these things. And every woman, not every woman, but almost every woman, had a different story. Women have different needs, they have this, they have that.

And men don't understand all. the possibilities in order to bring a woman higher. Because, man, just grab it and he's done. Okay, so it's complicated for us. Okay, so now I'm like teaching these classes on sex. That led me to teaching the Mars Venus ideas because you can't maintain the passion unless you have the differences.

But in the beginning of a relationship, you don't have to understand differences to feel passion. What happens is the newness, because somebody is new and it's a challenge and you don't know what's going to happen, what's it going to be like, how are they going to respond, what will happen. That newness and uncertainty generates, if it's sexual, generates massive amounts of dopamine. That's pleasure, dopamine, motivation, and passion. But then if you love a woman and she loves you, harmony starts to set in.

And then you have predictability and you have comfort, you have ease, relaxation, that lowers your dopamine. So what keeps your dopamine up is testosterone and gender differences. Because if you're not pumping up your testosterone and you're more estrogen, you won't be attracted to your partner. Now here's also very funny is because some men say, yeah, I'm not turned on my wife, but I have no problem with sex. I'm having it every day online. And I say, yeah, because when you have sex online, you're producing massive amounts of dopamine. and actually the sad news is all these teenagers masturbating to internet porn all the time. It's addictive, which means it desensitizes the brain to making more dopamine.

So what happens then is you depend on the high dopamine stimulation of fantasy and digital stimulation and normal stimulation with a woman that you care about doesn't produce enough dopamine. So actually what we're seeing, I predicted it 20 years ago, is we came online with, porn, you're going to see men at 20 years old, and this is happening now, can't stay turned on to their partner once they get to know her. And some men, just if you talk to me, I can't get turned on. Don't speak. Then I can get turned on.

But to actually have real relatedness, caring, sharing, affection, that stimulates estrogen. So if you're a low testosterone guy and you love someone, you lose your attraction to them. So you have to maintain this gender difference. And we know biologically that for women to be turned on to a man, her estrogen has to be 20 times higher than his. Okay. She has to shoot up with this high level of estrogen and of the normal estrogen levels of a man. Then he has to double his testosterone to be multi-argasmic with her to experience fantastic falling in love orgasm, which is possible. but it takes the interaction of taking a person,

and this is what's good. I love my message because we have to let go of the idea that our partner makes us unhappy. You know, if we're in the workplace and you're failing, whose fault is that? Yes. You can't just keep blaming the government and blaming other people.

You will lose. You won't succeed. Winners, if you achieve your goals, it's because when things aren't working, you go, how can I make it work? What can I do? And when I teach classes on success, everybody goes, yeah, who's responsible? Yeah.

And then I said, but then you get married. You come into the counselor's office. Who's responsible? We point the finger. Always point the finger. And what that does, what that does is it takes away our ability to self-reflect and change what we're doing. But the truth is, it's like an automatic thing that we're going to blame because we just

don't understand why is this not working. It's like what you said in the beginning. People just aren't happy. The attraction goes away. What is happening? Because they feel inside them that I want this to happen. It can happen. And of course, we see it in the movies,

but it's unrealistic to experience a lifetime of passion unless we're able to embrace both the masculine and feminine sides of us. And that's the good news about all this gender neutrality is the younger generation and the world, due to all the changes, is allowing women to be more masculine that pushes men into becoming more feminine. So we're waking up to both our male and female sides.

But the problem is, when women go over the masculine, they get stuck over there. And that then pauses a man to get stuck over on his feminine side. Because what are the symptoms of high estrogen in men? Grumpy, irritable, passive, angry, defensive, argumentative. Sounds like me, John. And all our views would agree with that. It's not the best side of us men.

There's nothing wrong with feeling love and emotions when they're positive. But when men start having negative emotions, then what happens is you can measure in their body when they have negative emotions, cortisol is being produced. And adrenaline starts and then cortisol gets produced. Their estrogen levels are going higher. their testosterone is going low. So this is literally learning to balance. Everything now is about balancing the masculine with the feminine.

And you know, there's some really wonderful speakers out there. And I'm thinking of one. And she says, you know, women, we're always trying to balance our life. Women hear about all the time trying to balance. Just let go of it. You can't balance it. Just go with the flow. Don't, you just can't find it.

And I go, yes, you can find balance if you know the opposite of what you're doing is actually something that will work for you. but it doesn't feel natural. You see, if I go off sugar or high desserts or ice cream, ice cream just makes me fat, but I love it, so I don't eat it. Unless I get really skinny, then I'll, in one day, I can gain 10 pounds eating some ice cream. It's just my physiology. But boy, does it feel right.

It feels so good. The things that are wrong for us often feel so good. And that's where we get, it doesn't, it feels so natural to eat ice cream. Just give me my ice cream. It feels so good. Drug addicts. Oh, drink. so much. This is so natural. But then it throws you out of balance. So generally, the things that

put you out of balance feel natural. And the things that will put you in balance, you resist. And you go, that's not me. I don't feel it. I don't want to do it. So I tell women, one of the best ways to produce estrogen is to feel love. Well, I can't feel that. I'm mad at him. Okay. Then what you have to do is feel your emotions. If you feel your emotions, you begin to feel again. And then as you feel through your emotions, you come back to feeling your love again. But it takes time for women, women process stress and being out of balance by building up their estrogen. And what does it is talking about what you feel, basically becoming naked. If a woman, you know, if a woman becomes naked, a man gets turned on. But the reality,

if a man's a good listener and creates safety for a woman, she wants to get naked. Otherwise, she don't want to get naked. Well, sharing your emotions is a higher level of nakedness. It's revealing what's inside of me. But often what's inside of her at the surface is anger at him. He's not going to hear that. He'll put your clothes back on. I don't want to see that. Turn out the lights here. I don't want to see that. Okay, so she's got to process her emotions to increase estrogen, which is authenticity of what's inside has to come out and be accepted, be understood, be felt someone has to empathize. So women have to learn to get in touch with their feelings and share it with somebody who relates to it instead of gets defensive. Women will complain all the time.

My husband can't hear me. My husband can't hear me. They come to me for counseling. After a while, they feel so good because I can listen and whatever and empathize and they come back again and again. After about six sessions, they say, why is it that you are such a good listener? My husband doesn't and can't. I said three reasons. One, all your complaints are not about me. If your complaints were about me. I will be defensive. Anytime you complain to a man, his testosterone goes down, his estrogen goes up. He wants to get on fight or flight. So first of all, your complaints are not about me. Second, you pay me. What payment do you give your husband? And by the way, what is the payment that men need at home? Your love, your acceptance, your appreciation, and also taking off your clothes.

Okay, all those things is like, I score. That's this big time. So I get paid. You're not complaining about me. And also, I know there's a time limit. That's the most important one. You saved the full last. If women can learn these things, men can practically hear anything.

If you start out, maybe even have a complaint about him. That's hard for men to learn in the beginning. But you have to always come from a place of love. If you're not coming from a place of love, nobody's going to hear you. That's it. And as a man, you can't hear a woman unless you're coming from a place of love. And certainly he shouldn't be talking. Because when men talk, when they're not coming from a place of hormonal balance,

and their heart is open. The same thing, hapharmonal balance means your heart is open. If you're talking when you're angry, biologically what happens, man, your estrogen goes up. Stop talking. And if you're a good listener, listening is actually the most masculine. thing you can do. Now let me just point that out. When you listen, you're penetrating into her. That's what sex is, very masculine thing, erection. When you learn, wow, if I can just listen and not talk, I'm going to get an erection. I'm going to give her an orgasm. Because when you penetrate,

that's very masculine. And so what he's doing by being a good listener, he's building his testosterone, which allows her to go to her estrogen side. And testosterone always wants to create safety. deep, always wants to serve. And eventually when it goes really high, it becomes totally no self. Now, see, as a yogi, a meditator, for me, the highest state, not the highest, but one of the higher states you get to is there's no self. First, you think you know the self, which is the soul, which is eternal. Okay, oh, that's the self. Then who's this guy with this body? Who's this mind? That's a no self. That's not me. That's just the programming. and who is behind here is the soul that lives on and on and on. This is just one life for that.

That's what you learn when you experience those things, when you meditate 50 years. Okay, so I teach meditation, but there's basic levels. And I'll just toss in here for all the people who've tried meditation because it's so popular now. It's so popular now. People try it, and then they go, I'm so bored. I'm so bored.

I'm just sitting there trying to have no thing. thoughts, or I'm so bored, I'm just looking at my breathing and it's so boring. Well, guess what? For most people, they're too advanced to do that. Let me just say that again. They're too advanced to do the common meditation techniques. See, we've gotten to a higher level when you can both be on your masculine and feminine sides. You just have to bring them into balance. Meditation, the old techniques of meditation are particularly designed simply the calm, the primitive brain. When you notice your breathing or you practice breathing, then what you're doing is connecting the front part of your brain to the instinctive part of your brain, which does these things automatically. But that's just a beginning.

And so let's say you're in first grade or your little kid and you're learning mathematics. One plus one is two. One plus one is two. Apple, A-P-P-L-E. You do that. It's very exciting. It's all new. It's challenging.

But then it becomes boring after a while. You've got to go to the next level. You know, you got to get to algebra, you know, you get to the higher levels. Even for some people get the calculus. You go, amazing problem. I can solve this. You know, the higher levels, if you're not getting, if you're not challenged, you'll become bored. So we have to really upgrade our meditation skills.

We have to upgrade our relationship skills because we're in a new world now. So what do women need us for? Because remember, women, if you don't need a man, you're not going to be turned on to him. You got to feel. And, of course, all these sensitive. guys, we're always worrying about what you think and feel, and then what you say, what do you think and feel? Then we talk about our feelings. And then she gets turned off to us. And we think we're doing what everybody says you should do. I'm not against men talking about their positive feelings.

And I'm not against men sharing their feelings. It may be frustration and disappointment, concerns, but only after a woman comes back to feeling her heart is open. Otherwise, when men get too estrogen-oriented, women start feeling like your mother. And then they resent being your mother, You're supposed to be my husband. And do you find that what we are now experiencing, John, because of the culture that we have, in particular the culture wars, is actually men being told that somehow masculinity is wrong.

It's wrong to be a man, is wrong to embrace traditional male values, which then makes men unhappy, which then impacts on relationships. Absolutely. And what gets reinforced, because we don't have love for men as a culture, embracing, understanding, and appreciating men.

And let me say, that is a reaction from femininity because men have not embraced femininity. Women have been on a downslide for a long time in the past where, you know, if she was a homemaker and she raised her children, men did not respect that. Suddenly when men started making money for what they do, then suddenly if I make more money, I'm better man than you, okay? That's the men go in the hierarchy.

and then suddenly we put that on the woman. So she's at home with her children. This is back in those days. And she's like needing to share because she feels ignored and neglected because he's working all the time to make more money. And then she gets upset. He says, well, you don't do anything.

I do the big stuff. I'm more important than you. Who are you to complain? Why aren't you happy? You have more things than other women. You should be happy. That's why you get rich people are so, so unhappy. Because the man often thinks,

not always, but often thinks you have no right to be unhappy. You have no right to complain about things. Because look out of your life. We have so much more. What's wrong with you? And what men don't understand how putting down, how disrespectful that is to her. So women have lost respect.

After a while, the whole thing went downhill once men started making money. Then, because money said you have more value, more value. Women lost respect. then women said, I want respect because they need respect. So if men are getting respect for making money, then I'm going to go make money. That elevated the whole consciousness to where women are saying, I can be masculine just like you. But the problem that goes with that is, oh, I forgot how to be feminine. How to have both at the same time is our new challenge today.

And one of the benefits of that is self-actualization, which means, well, one of the big benefits of it is you don't get divorced. You can have an intact family. You know, you mentioned that, you know, we've made men wrong. Well, also what happens besides making men wrong is little boys grow up what's it like to be a man and their fathers are gone. Because when you make men wrong, you have more divorce. When you have more divorce, you have boys growing up without fathers in most cases, the majority. And not because the father doesn't want to take care of the child. Sometimes that's the case.

but the majority of it in our court system today, there's a bias. The mother always gets the young child. Teenagers is discussed, but a young child, the mother gets the child. There's a bias as opposed to what I think it should be is equal time and embracing both sides. And for parents to know that if you're unhappy with your partner, you're hurting your children. Whether you're divorced or single, if you're unhappy with your problem, what a boy learns, If a father says bad things about the mother, then he learns, oh, women are not worthy of my respect and my love, so I don't care. If a little girl or a boy grows up and the mother bad mouse the father, which the research show women do six times more than men,

and that's because they need to express how they feel more of the time than men. But when she expresses that complaints about her husband, negative feelings, what is a boy going to hear? Well, if I'm like my dad, I'm a bad person, I should be more. more like my mom. And there's a lot of qualities of masculinity that often get judged as dysfunction and they're not. For example, simple ideas. Men need their cave time. He needs to be close, then he needs to pull away. Men don't like it when you tell him what to do. And women say, well, he needs to know what to do. I need to tell him what to do. I said, no, you don't. You complain, you want to change him. That doesn't work. You can't do that. If you want amazing sex and a great

relationship in a long time. Well, how do I get more if I want more? You learn how to open your heart, given what he needs, then ask for more in small increments, just like you would do do it a business. You wouldn't ask for massive raise. You wouldn't say, I feel so hurt if you don't double my salary. You'd ask for increments, okay? It's a gradual process. Everything is gradual, but women don't understand the psychology of men. Men don't understand the psychology of women. It's, you know, in the beginning of a relationship, what happens is men naturally do the things that win a woman over. And what are those natural things we do in the beginning? Listen to it.

Little stuff. Little stuff. You hold her hand. We stroke her hair. We tell her how pretty she is. We call her, you know, we think about her. All these little things actually stimulate estrogen. Then we get married and then we do the big thing. I go to work. I support my friends. family. I'm going to work hard. And we think, because I do that, I don't need to do the little things. But what we don't understand as men is that for estrogen, if you're an estrogen being, little things are just as important as big things. So it's not how big it is. It's how many little things you do, along with occasional big things. Big things are nice, without a doubt. It's special. It's glorious. That's basically on my anniversary, on my wife's birthday, New Year's

It's holidays. You give a lot of extra attention to a woman. She feels so special. But what keeps her feeling love is lots of little things that you did in the beginning. And every man can do it. If you got a wife, you figured it out. You just didn't know you figured it out because you weren't doing yet the big stuff. So the logic.

And of course, women, think about how you were in the beginning of the relationship. When he did little things, you were so appreciative of it. But after a while, he does romantic gestures. and because you're maybe doing his laundry or picking up after him, and then he takes you out the dinner, you go, well, he should take me out to dinner. I do his laundry. You know, women start to take men for granted,

men start to take women for granted, particularly because we don't understand our vulnerabilities, our sensitivities, and our basic hormonal needs. And to summarize hormonal needs, and this is, I love this. You know, in middle from Mars, I wrote, what men need most is to feel appreciated, to feel accepted,

not trying to change them and trusted that they're doing their best and they're there for you. Okay. And what are the things women do wrong all the time? As soon as a man's late, she goes, oh, I can't trust him. I can't trust him. As soon as a man makes mistakes, oh, you should change. You did that. She reminds us of what we do and tries to change what we do.

Yep, I've heard that. And then he does stuff for her and she goes, yeah, but I do more stuff for you. So he doesn't feel appreciated. appreciation, acceptance, and trust are the major testosterone producers. And what's ironic is that women are always saying, I don't feel appreciated. Well, when you say, I don't feel appreciated, how do you think he feels? He feels like, boy, if I really fail, he needs the vitamin appreciation more than her. She needs it, but he needs it more.

And I promise you, if you appreciate a man a lot, he will really appreciate you more. That's the key. feed him what he needs and it brings forth his best self and naturally he will begin to do the things that feed her. Now, what are the things that feed estrogen? This is a really amazing thing is that when you demonstrate, I care. I'm considered of your needs, of your wishes, I care about you. Caring, and this is a little foreign to many men, the real experience of caring is if you've got a new car and somebody dins the side of it when you park it, you come back and your reaction is,

oh, my car, that's feeling the pain of something. That's what caring is, one part of caring, and wanting to protect, wanting to carry. I remember my wife, we bought these expensive plates, and I would take it out of the dishwasher, and she said, no, no, no, John, this is how you hold the plates, like a little baby. So I realized, okay, that's caring.

You know, I didn't learn so much about caring because when I grew up, there was six boys in my family. And I remember visiting my mother. And, you know, after I made some money, whatever, I went back home. I said, Mom, you still have these green plastic plates from childhood. You should get some nice plates. I'll buy you nice plates. She said, oh, no, I don't need it. I said, why did you have such cheap plates?

She said, when you've got six boys, they're going to drop those plates, you need plastic plates. So basically, if you want the sensitivities of a woman to come out, you have to demonstrate caring. It's expensive China. It's called cherishing sensitivity, consideration. So every act of caring is going to produce estrogen. Every act of understanding. That's why women would complain in the 90s. I did this from listening to women's complaints.

What are they really missing? They feel he doesn't care about me. He doesn't listen to me. Women need to be seen and heard. and understood. That's such an important thing. If I can share how I feel inside, then my estrogen goes up. That's talking about your feelings and having somebody empathize with you.

That's why men, you already have too much estrogen. Don't talk about your feelings to a woman. Talk to guys about it and let them laugh at you. Yeah, get over it. Big deal. Make fun of it. And if it's really a big loss, feel empathy. If certainly there's times when it's a big problem, then it's appropriate.

it. But for little problems, your wife said this, you do this, you share what happened, and then you share accountability. How did I miss? What did I do wrong? What was the fullest thing I did? Be light about it. Men need to lighten up. Women need to go deep. Then they lighten up. When men can be light about it, then they can go deeper. So the third one, women need trust. I mean, women need his caring, women need understanding. And here's the big one that I talked about in the early. This is why there's so many problems from our history that we're trying to fix is women need respect. You know, when you look at all the books, even the Christian books which talk about love, they always say, you respect the man. The man needs respect. Yeah. If you agree with the man,

if you serve the man, he'll be great, but he'll be selfish. Selflessness is masculinity. So when men learn to respect women and treat them as equals, and even more than equals sometimes, That's respecting. That's esteeming. That's honoring. So what does a man do when he proposes to a woman? We're back to that one. He kneels.

Francis, pay attention. Pay attention. This is bullying now. John approved of it. He said that I should make fun of you. That's what he said. That's right. That's what men do.

We make fun of each other. Don't do it around women, though. They think, oh, you're being so mean to each other. You're so hurtful. That was the first thing my wife taught me. I hate your sense of humor. And then I felt like, what, I can't be funny around you? And she says, no.

And she got out of the car and walked away. I went, no, no, okay, okay. But inside I felt like, what, I can't be myself around you. Then I realized we all have parts of ourselves that are appropriate to share with our partners, parts of ourselves that are not appropriate. I have plenty of male friends. I can be as funny as I want. I can be as light as I want.

I can be as cynical as I want. It's just they understand. understand instinctively because I lighten up things that way, whereas women, you can't do that with them when they're upset. And that's one of our big mistakes again. Yeah. Talking, we want to, we want to laugh at her. Oh, that's a no big deal. What are you? Why are you feeling that way? That's silly. That's ridiculous. Oh, come on. Are you kidding? That's a big deal. Do you? The sensitivities they have are different. And some women have toughened up, you know,

and their husbands are more sensitive. What that means is they're out of balance. She needs to come back, he needs to come back, toughen up, and then he can be on his female side. You know, I'm not like, oh, like men should be stoic and never have feelings. It's when a woman is expressing her feelings, if you can not get defensive, if you can not take it personally, which means if she's upset today, that means she's saying I failed her. Even if she says, I failed her, it doesn't mean I failed her. Inside, I know it's her job to be happy, but if I listen to her, I'm helping her to be happy.

And then she can remember all the good things I do and she'll be happier. It's our job to be happy. And then if we can find our happiness, certainly as partners, we can not make it worse. And that's a problem. Men unknowingly make it worse. We don't realize women are these different beings and they require a different kind of support. And that's the lack of respect for women. Respect stimulates estrogen.

respect creates safety. And that's why this understanding that came around 15 years ago, oxytocin is a hormone of touch. When a woman gets dressed up and you go, oh, you look so beautiful tonight, right away oxytocin gets produced. If you hold her hand just for 10 seconds, not the whole evening.

You know, it's like a little boy walking across the street. Just 10 seconds. Put your arm around her. Just 10 seconds. You don't have to do it. You know, your arm gets really tired. How long do I have to do this? this, I don't want it to feel rejected when I go away.

That's oxytocin. Too much oxytocin in men actually lowers your testosterone. That's why men don't instinctively cuddle after having sex. After sex, we have a huge release of oxytocin, which lowers our testosterone, which causes us to pull away. So naturally, you want to pull away, and why do you want to pull away? Because pulling away, separateness creates testosterone connection. creates estrogen.

And yes, I love the estrogen. Estrogen is pleasure, it's enjoyment, it's love, it's surrender. But testosterone is also important to feel confident, okay, to feel free, to feel connected to who my power inside. And that's what you want is stamina in the bedroom as well. If you have that, you bring a woman to higher levels of estrogen. John. It happens when men learn how to be selfless, selflessness,

And so it's ironic when I go to meditate, I'm taking care of myself. But then as I fill up with testosterone, then I naturally want to come back and be more selfless. And you'll see this dance. Women have to recognize this is the dance of men. They want to get close. And then they pull away. When you're wanting to get close, you feel I can't live without you. And then you get enough of her.

Your estrogen goes up. Your testosterone goes down. Now you've got to pull away and go. You know, I can't live without you. Now I need to be on my own for a while. And women go, are you crazy? Are you schizophrenic? One day you're so loving.

The next day you're ignoring me. No, this is a normal dance. When men get really close, they naturally pull away. They will come back, but they never come back if a man pulls away and a woman runs after him. Yeah. How do women run after men? They want to change you. They come back.

Come back. What did I do wrong? Or that's where they get all, they respect him rather than appreciate him. They go, oh, I'll do more things for you. I'll take care of you. Oh, I understand your problems. That all just increases as estrogen. Or one of the things they do to go after you is ask what your feelings.

Let's connect. Let's tell me what you feel. What did I do wrong? All those things actually push men away, yet she thinks she's pulling them back. Another thing women do is when men go to their cave, they feel better. They come out of the cave. And then she gives them a look. They're like slapping his hand.

You ignored me. You hurt me. you didn't call back. You're a bad person. And so that's a stress. So what do men do to handle stress? We go back into the cave. And eventually we go into the cave and we want to come out.

We go, uh-oh. If I come out, I'm just going to be punished. So go back into the cave. It's our safe zone. Because women don't appreciate that men go to their cave. I remember the change of my marriage of 34 years when my wife, she said to me, I don't know, maybe six years into the marriage. I went to my cave.

After we're getting an argument, I just said, look, let me just take some time to think about this. My heart's closed. And instead of going, why is your heart closed? Why aren't you listening to me? Tell me how you feel. She just let me go. And when I came back, after opening my heart again, I came back.

I was affectionate to her. We didn't have the same conversation again. You give it time to warm up again. And I came back. And she said, John, I just want to thank you for going to your cave because I didn't have to experience your dragon. I feel you coming back with love. And then after about 23 years into the marriage, I said to her,

how do you rate me as a husband? You know, I want to rate me. And she said, as a father to our children, you're the unbelievable. You're a plus. You're the very best father I can imagine. As a husband, you're certainly not perfect. But John, I think that's a perfect moment to then move on to the final part of the episode, is which we're going to be talking about.

And we'll do it very, very briefly because we're coming. towards the end time-wise. But, and it's been brilliant, we're faced, and couples in particular are faced with a unique set of challenges, with the lockdown situation with the coronavirus, whereby we're in closed spaces. How do we keep our marriages and our love together in these very, very challenging times, if we're apart or if we're together? And I can do it briefly because I've given the foundation for it. It's just an extra skill on top of what I've just said. But I'll finish that last point. She said, you're not a perfect husband, but you've given me the greatest gift a woman could

want. I said, what's that? That was like my redeeming moment. And she said, whenever you're angry or upset with me, and I know I can make you angry and upset, you stop talking, you go to your cave, and you always come back with more love. So I know there's nothing I can say or do that will push you out of my life. Security.

That's the most important thing to women, to feel safe. that when they're not loving, if they're selfish, if they're angry, if they're complaining, that they're not going to lose you, that you'll still love them. And with this understanding, helps men to do that, which is, but you can't, once your buttons get pushed, you get angry, upset, you pull away. So now coronavirus, we're all isolated, quarantined into our house. We're there. It's too much connection. When connection, too much connection happens, men's testosterone goes down. They start getting irritable. They get cabin fever.

They get grumpy. And then when he's grumpy, that makes her feel not safe. And while she's not feeling safe, then her emotions, her fear, starts putting her in a stress reaction. When women go into a stress reaction, there's a bias towards seeing everything that's wrong. You see, life is always, every man has problems, but good qualities. What allows women to keep their heart open is not focusing on the negative, but seeing the positive along with the negative.

It's okay. It's no big deal. That's a million dollar phrase. If a woman wants to ask a man of something, don't complain. Just say, honey, you know, sometimes like my wife, I learned this with her when she said, you know, she was so frustrated because for years I would leave the lights on the living room when I walked through because I needed a light on to go through. And then she would follow later and have to turn off the lights. And that's a big deal to her. Not such a big deal to me, so I don't think about it. I even have free solar. She'd say, we're wasting. Energy, you know, the environment, we have to protect the environment. I said, we're using solar energy. She says, still, we have to set an example and leave those. Turn out the light. Okay, so I have to honor that, respect that this is her value system. So I honor that, but still, inside, it's so contrary to me because I solved the problem by having solar energy.

So anyway, the lights would stay on. I kept forgetting, kept forgetting. She's so frustrated. Then one day she figured this out. She said, John, what she did wrong, she'd always say, you forgot the light again. Am I supposed to just follow you around and turn out lights? She'd shame me. She disapprove of me.

She complained to me. That's a stress message and helps me to forget it. Whenever you push a man down, he will forget. He'll push away. You can't help bring out the best in him if you're complaining. So what she said is, John, I know sometimes most of the time you turn the light out. But sometimes you forget. And then I have to run around turning out lights.

Would you try to remember? I'd really appreciate it. No big deal. See, that tone of voice. Everything is tone of voice, but words can help. It's not a big deal, but I really appreciate if you turn out the lights. The tone of voice says it, even with the phrase, it's not a big deal. Helps a man to relax.

His heart can open. He can hear. But as soon as you go, oh, I'm so upset with you. You didn't do this. You didn't do this. That means women, your heart is closed. You're out of balance. You're trying to change him.

You're on your male side. Negative emotions happen on your male side. So come back to your female side. Share those negative emotions. Write them in a journal. Share them as irrational, as trash to throw away. Share it with somebody who will empathize with you. Call up a girlfriend,

talk about what you're feeling, and learn to do it in 10 minutes. Don't go on and on. And if you don't interrupt, you can do it in 10 minutes. Become efficient and sort of processing negativity. And you talk to somebody but not your partner. Now, it's really hard for women at these times when they're together because here's an example.

When I used to write at home, okay? When I'm sitting in front of the computer, my wife would always feel ignored by me. But if I'm writing at my office, she goes, oh, he's at the office. She didn't take it personally. Women tend to take it personally. You're sitting there watching TV,

and she's feeling he's not looking at me. He's ignoring me. She might want to come up and talk to you. And you go, wait, I'm watching the show. It's an important moment. And then she feels, oh, TV is more important than me. You know, so women take these things personally because they need more estrogen. So it's appropriate.

So you've got to build up her estrogen during this time because when her estrogen is open, then she's not needy. Okay. I'm needy of your affection and attention, which means it's I need more than I should need. It's like I'm empty. I feel me up. And of course, that makes him feel like he's failed. His testosterone goes down.

So when he's taking his space and men have to learn to take your space and okay about it. She sees him do that. She's going to be upset about it. Even with this knowledge, it's going to be hard for her because she doesn't have enough estrogen. So what happens, she feels needy for that attention. So here's a fun thing you can do. This will really spice up your sex life as well. Every other day you play a game. And this is the game, which you can continue doing, because I play this game and I love it. When the sun sets, after the sun sets, you play the game of genie. You become her genie.

And so everything she wants is as you wish, as you wish. And people should watch the princess bride, the movie. The guy who wins the woman's heart, the princess, he wins her heart by always say, as you wish, as you wish, is my pleasure to make you happy. It is my pleasure to do your bidding. It is my pleasure. I will do this for you.

So you're the genie. You become her servant and she becomes the master. She's the master of the servant. You are the genie. Whatever you wish is within my power. But it's not like I wish you would clean up the yard tomorrow. That's not in the game. The game is like in the next three hours before we go to bed,

whatever I want you to do right now, I will ask you to do it and I will oversee it. I will see you doing it for me. It's not like I want you to go to the store, and buy something, something in the house. Although going to the store, but it's not a long time away, it's okay. She needs to see you doing her bidding, but she has to ask. You can't be this perfect husband who says, oh, you need my help.

I'll anticipate it. No, you have to ask. So you can practice knowing it's a safe zone. For this three hours, he will do whatever you wish without a grumble, without a growl, I'll be happy to do it. And he always says, I'm happy to do it. Your wish is my command. I love doing this for you.

It will be so much fun. It's only three hours. If you can't do three hours, men do two hours. Say your parameters. Don't do it every day. Do it every other day. But when that happens, what happens when she feels she's your master, okay? She has the power to get you to do something.

That strengthens her masculine confidence, which allows her to feel, now I'm safe to go to my female side and ask. Because most women don't ask. They will, what they do. is they expect, you should do this, you should do this. So no shoulds just saying, honey, would you do this? Not even could you do this. There's a subtlety there. Could you do? Only if you can, would you do this. It's the wood. Just honey, would you do this? Would you move the chair for me? Would you give me a glass of tea? Would you wash the dishes

tonight? Would you take care of the kids for the next 20 minutes? Give him specific tasks to do for you that will make you feel more relaxed and appreciate him. Practice, practice, smile. and enjoying it and to say, you're like the ideal husband. I love you. I want that genie. You're amazing. Give her a chance to feel and control because when women don't feel and their feminine side that they have power, they go to their masculine side where they have to do everything

themselves. So practice letting him do for you. And men, you will gain so much from this because the most masculine thing you can do is to selflessly serve. No grumbles, no annoyance. but you've got the power, you can make her happy. So this is like the fun game, the genie game. She's the master and you're the genie.

You provide as you wish. Amazing stuff, John. And look, it's been a great interview. Thank you so much for your time. We really appreciate, as I said, some of your advice has been useful to me and my wife in our life, and I'm sure many other people watching as well. And it's also been very useful to me because I found out everywhere I'm going wrong. So thank you for that.

Absolutely. I really particularly enjoyed when you spent an hour talking about the importance of listening and then Francis interrupted you mid-story. I really enjoyed that. But anyway, John, the last question we always ask our guests is, what is the one thing very briefly that we're not talking about that we ought to be talking about? You mean, while we're in the COVID? Anything at all.

Anything at all more broadly at any point. As a society, what is the one thing that we're not talking about that we ought to be talking about? Sex? We're not talking enough about sex. No, we're not talking about sex. We should talk about what I like, what I don't like, what you like, what you don't like, when you want to have it initiating sex. People just don't feel comfortable talking about sex. We need to understand women, the big thing in my sex classes, which was a revelation for women,

that the number one thing men want in sex is for her to be happy. And women think, oh, I can't ask for what I want, and he just thinks about himself. to understand why, you know, men are so fast because we're Ferraris. What we have to do is slow down. Women are so slow. And that their norm, that's their natural thing. It takes time to build up the estrogen. But if you take the time, your testosterone will go higher as well.

But if you go really fast, it's too much energy and you release too quickly. So if you slow down for the woman, she will speed up and want you more than you want her. And that is power, man. That sounds very much like power. Thank you so much for coming on Trigonomitjohn. We really appreciate it. Thank you for watching and listening, and we'll see you tomorrow on the live stream.

See you tomorrow, guys. Bye-bye.