TRIGGERnometry - Female-Only App Creator SUED - Sall Grover

Episode Date: December 3, 2023

Sall Grover was a Hollywood screenwriter for a decade before returning to Australia to start ‘Giggle’ – a female-only social media app. Sall is currently in the midst of a landmark legal case. Roxanne Tickle - a biological male who identifies as a woman - alleges that Giggle has discriminated against him for not accepting him onto the women’s app. For more details see: https://gigglecrowdfund.com/ We are proud partners with GiveSendGo - a world-leading crowdfunding platform that believes in free speech. Go to givesendgo.com and raise money for anything important to you. SPONSORED BY: AG1. Go to drinkAG1.com/triggernometry and get a FREE 1-year supply of Vitamin D3K2 AND 5 free AG1 Travel Packs with your first purchase. Become a Premium Member to receive exclusive benefits https://triggernometry.supercast.com/ OR Support TRIGGERnometry Here: Bitcoin: bc1qm6vvhduc6s3rvy8u76sllmrfpynfv94qw8p8d5 Music by: Music by: Xentric | [e-mail] | https://www.xentricapc.com/ YouTube: @xentricapc  Buy Merch Here: https://www.triggerpod.co.uk/shop/ Advertise on TRIGGERnometry: [e-mail] Join the Mailing List: https://www.triggerpod.co.uk/sign-up/ Find TRIGGERnometry on Social Media:  https://twitter.com/triggerpod https://www.facebook.com/triggerpod/ https://www.instagram.com/triggerpod/ About TRIGGERnometry:  Stand-up comedians Konstantin Kisin (@konstantinkisin) and Francis Foster (@francisjfoster) make sense of politics, economics, free speech, AI, drug policy and WW3 with the help of presidential advisors, renowned economists, award-winning journalists, controversial writers, leading scientists and notorious comedians. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Why don't we create an app for women, so that, you know, basically so that women could have, like, this woman-only support network. And cut to three and a half years later, I'm being taken to Australian federal court by a man who claims to be a woman. The moment that you say that I have to think you're a woman and come into a woman's space, you've made it my business and I'm not going to accept it. But I was like, no. You want a day in court? Okay. There's a huge chance at this case we go to the high court, so I have to raise a million dollars to fight for the right to say a man is not a woman. Hey guys, Trigonometry needs your help.

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We'll have exclusive bonus interviews that only you get to hear. Click the link on the podcast description or find the link on your podcast listening app to join us. Support us and help change the way we have conversations and make the world saner. Our guest today is an Australian founder of Women's Only app, of an extraordinarily controversial. It's called Giggle. She's called Sal Grover. Sal, welcome to Trigonometry. Thank you so much for having me. It's been a while in the making.

So happy to have you on the show. Before we get into it, Sal, tell everybody a little bit about who are you, how are you where you are, what has been the journey through life that leads you to be sitting here talking to us. Okay, so basically I spent a lot of time at university. I did a bachelor in almost two master's degrees. I left just shy of finishing a master's degree in philosophy. And then I went to Hollywood, of all. places where, you know, academia is just so respected, but I wanted to run these. And I got into the industry relatively easily and quickly in hindsight. Once I was in the industry, working in it, it became a nightmare that I was just so unprepared for. It was everything that's the Me Too

movement became about. So I, in about, it was 2018, I came home. It was only going to be for a holiday. I was in therapy just trying to recover from everything that had happened. My therapist said, you should have a strong female support network in your life. And that was just such a life-changing moment. It just resonated with me so much. And my mom and I was speaking a lot about what I'd been through and what I was learning in therapy. And it was my mom who said, why don't we create an app for women? So basically said that women could have like this woman-only support network in the palm of their hand. And initially it was going to just be a roommate app, but we developed the we were like, oh, it can be for like roommates and freelance work and emotional support,

just having a voice and lesbian dating and finding friends, just anything that a woman might need to do like on a little corner of the internet. Before we launched it, trans activists discovered us and infiltrated the app store and Google Play with one-star reviews, called us transphobic, got blacklisted from everything. I had never heard the word turf before. I had no idea what was actually going on. And cut to three and a half years later, I'm being taken to Australian federal court

by a man who claims to be a woman, and the Australian Human Rights Commission has intervened in the case on his side. And I have to raise the federal court $500,000, but there's a huge chance at this case we go to the high court, so I have to raise a million dollars to fight for the right to say a man is not a woman.

That's basically where we are. Wow. There's obviously a lot to understand. pack there, Sal. So let's just go back to the moment where you decide to develop this app. It got targeted, you mentioned, before being released even. How did that happen? So we were on the App Store and Google Play just doing some beta testing, you know, just before we would have planned to, you know, launch it wide. And there was a handful of women around the world, mainly like friends or friends of friends, for you about it. And we were just

you're ironing out any little bugs, testing all the features, and our security and everything. And basically to get on the app, so it would be female only, we had an onboarding process, which was that you would take a selfie and that selfie would go through AI, and that AI would help us determine if the user was male or female, just based in a selfie, because you actually can tell if someone is male or female just by looking at them. this is how it's always been. Well, there goes our monetization. Thanks, Sal.

Down the drain. I remember when we first got the idea, we were thinking like, how would this even be possible to make an online space just for women? And when we found out that there was this technology that we could use, my thought was, oh, well, that's the least controversial way to do it

because everyone takes selfies all the time. And you can, yeah, you can just tell. Like, we walk down the street every day not even realizing that we're registering, that's a man, that's a woman, blah, blah, blah. Like, it's just, it's so beyond, like, just subconscious second nature or whatever. So I was really excited.

I didn't know that we had so blindly, yet perfectly, walked into this sex versus gender war where people were saying that any man could say he was a woman and be accepted as that. I mean, we couldn't have, you couldn't have planned it better. And so I'm not sure exactly how the trans activists found us, But they did in that testing phase. And because we didn't have all of like the onboarding features set to how they were going to be for launch or anything,

just we were inundated with thousands upon thousands of men who created profiles saying kill turfs and rape turfs and whatnot. So that's how I was introduced to the term turf. And they left reviews on the apps during Google Play like thousands of them saying you're transphobic and whatnot. So it was the 7th of February 2020. So just straight away, I was like, I have to find out what's going on. This is insanity. And I found on Twitter that there were women like Helen Joyce, Julie Bindle, Kathleen Stop, Jane Claire Jones, Glynner, all these people. And then a lot of other women as well speaking out going, you know, sort of the house is on fire.

And I just, and Kelly J is the other one, sorry, that I also discovered. I just started researching everything I could about it. And then when J.K. Rowling did her, around when she did her essay, that's what sort of gave me the courage to be like, okay, I need to start speaking out about this because I have a startup that's floundering. And I don't believe I've done anything wrong. And so how did this start? Was it a particular individual who let other people know on social media?

was it part of a storm? I mean, how did this begin? I have absolutely no idea where that very first one began. I couldn't tell you. But I do know that, like, as we went on, like, so there would be, like, men every day would try to get on. Sometimes, like, it could be a really slow day, so they might only be 50.

But then you'd have a day when it was, like, thousands. And, like, thousands an hour. Like, it was just crazy. And they'd take the selfie, so you'd see who was trying to get on. And they were just men. And sometimes they'd be this big influx and they'd be wearing gamer headsets. And so it would be like, oh, this must be a Twitch-related thing or something. But that's the most we could know.

Sometimes it would be trans activists on Twitter because I find the tweets like that Katie Montgomery individual had done it a few times. In fact, when I was in labor with my daughter, we were under attack then and I eventually had to say like, I can't monitor this anymore. I have to go to the hospital. But, yeah, so sometimes we could trace it to sort of some trans activist online, but other times it was just like, who knows where this is coming from, we're under attack. Because there was one particular individual who was the headliner, shall we put it, charmingly named Roxy Tickle. Yeah, so Roxanne Tickle is the man who claims to be a woman who is taking me to federal court.

So his story with the app is slightly different in terms of not being sort of someone who like sort of came in during an attack. I don't think. I'm not 100% sure. But anyway, so he actually did make it onto the app, not explain how that can happen. So with the onboarding software that we had, we had it set to 94% accuracy because throughout testing, we found that was the safest way. So no woman would get rejected. but maybe occasionally there would be a man that would come through. And our reasoning was it would be better to have to kick out some men occasionally

than to not have to have any woman like just be rejected from the app. So rightly or wrongly, that's what we went with. So occasionally there was like a guy that we'd get through. We'd be alerted to it or we'd see it happen. We would remove them. Sometimes they would like fall throughout. checking system, we'd find them a few days later, we'd kick them off. That's basically what happened here. I don't remember it at the time, specifically because it was just another guy I was

kicking off, but I saw that there was a guy on there and I was like, oh, off you go. And then any more of it? And then a few weeks later, I got a call and a text on my phone from him saying, like this is like the first time we became like a relative person in my life saying, I'm Roxy Tickle, trying to get on the app. I think he might have said he was trans, and then I'm not sure. I didn't keep the text. I just didn't think that this person was ever going to take me to court. And so I, because I had the phone number, I just put it into our system and checked,

and I was like, oh, that's a man. And I called my dad, and I was like, there's this guy who's trying to get on Twitter, on Giggle. And he's called and text my phone. And my dad said, block him, block his number and don't tell your mother. Because my mom lives in, like, perpetual fear. that I'm going to get attacked. So I didn't tell her.

And then two months later, I got a, I was served with a human rights school plant from the Australian Human Rights Commission from Ropsanticle for alleged gender identity discrimination. And at this point, I was 15 weeks pregnant. So to put it into perspective of how long this has been going on for, my daughter is 14 months old. And by the time this is all resolved,

there's a good chance she'll be three, maybe four. So, yeah. So the case for tickle be giggle. Just in, if anything couldn't become more. So tickle be giggle. Tickle v. Giggle. I mean, so there will be people listening to this going, well, you know, sell, are you being unfair?

Why is it so important that your app is a female only space? Can you explain to us why? Why is it so important that the app is female only? Well, if it, in terms of just rather, instead of just getting into like the importance of female only spaces, just in terms of this particular one, if the app isn't female only, it's like, congratulations. I've invented Twitter. Like, the point of difference with it is it's female only. Like, I mean, if I was to let men and claim to be women on, then it's not female only. And yeah, I've just invented a place that's exactly like any other place on the internet. So, you know, I. You know, know, there's no point to it. Then if you go deeper with it, why fight back is because, one, it's not true. It's just not true. Like, this person is not a woman. And I'm just, I'm not going to give in to that. I refuse to believe it. And second, like, female-only spaces, women's rights in general, whether it's female-any spaces, women's sport and services,

or different opportunities that are offered to women, they are just, they're just too important. and already like hard fought for to just give in. I can't do it. I've never really been someone who is, I've never been an activist before in my life or anything like that, but I'm just like, no, I care too much about this, but I really am my foundation of it is it's just not true. I cannot believe it. And I just can't, I can't let society just force us all to believe this. Does it surprise you that Australia has then essentially, they're on the side, Australia or the legal system is on the side of this person who claims to be a woman called Roxanne Tickle?

Oh my God, it shocks me so much. I had no idea. I mean, I was in America when the law was changed. So in 2013, what happened? We had our first female prime minister, and it's her government that did this, which just adds so much insult to injury. So it was Julia Gillard was prime minister, and her government took out the definition of woman from the Sex Discrimination Act

and put in gender identity into it, which made the act completely muddled because now you have gender in the Sex Discrimination Act. And so obviously it's just like this. So it's not specifically that recognizing sex is outlawed in any way. It's that it's which one is more relevant. Now, no one has tested it in any massive way yet in Australia. Most people have been, you know, just intimidated by the law and the process. There's a lot of places that have just fallen to it and given in because, you know, it is so daunting.

But, you know, I just, I couldn't because I mean, you guys know, it's like when you have a startup, I can invest in money. I, you know, these people invested in an app for women. It was not an app for men, rethink their women and women. It was just an app for women. And I have a responsibility to these people and just to women in general and to myself. And so I was like, yeah, I'll take it all the way to fight it. And so that's what we're doing. We're doing a constitutional challenge, basically to try and get gender out of the sex discrimination act.

because it doesn't work there. Well, Sal, I really want to pick up on that because it's a fascinating conversation that, as you well know, is happening around the world, not just in Australia. But I'm curious to, look, I know for you, it's personal, so it's perhaps insensitive me to ask, but I do think it's important. It's a question we've discussed with various people. I mean, Sam Harris, when we last had him on, he was saying, well, look, I think Twitter should be able to discriminate against anybody if they don't want this person on a platform.

They're free to do so. But then I suppose the question is, what if somebody wants to be? to create an app for, I don't know, only white people or only Gentiles or whatever, you know, caught Tinder or something. I think it's called 4chan, mate. Whatever, right? So, you know, I suppose the question Francis asked you earlier, I think is important to answer, which is why is it important to have an app that is able to exclude men?

Yeah. I mean, apps that, like some niche social networks that exclude people is nothing. I mean, in 2010, no one was asking Brian to justify why they were excluding women. We just accepted it. It was an app for gay men. It's only because of the introduction of gender ideology that suddenly we have to justify all of these things because they've turned up and society upside down so much. But niche apps and websites in general exist for everyone.

I mean, in terms of, like, there is apps that are religious base. Like there are dating apps like J date and things like that that aren't just based on religion. And they've never been asked to justify themselves in the manner that something just for women is. And it's interesting. Like when you're talking to a lot of women, like we just get it. And then when you're talking to men, you go like, how do you try and explain why a woman, an app just for women would be important? No, no. I get it too, Sal.

I just want you to explain it for people who are. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, the internet is different for everyone and assess pool for everybody. It is very much an interesting place for women. Like, part of the reason how we got the idea for it is when I'd moved from Hollywood to New York before I'd come home, I was looking for a room to rent in New York. And in that process, like, I was just using that roommates.com and all of those things.

And, you know, there'd be these guys going, oh, do you want, you could rent. to room here for free if you walk around naked or do you want a boyfriend as well and it was just like can I just do one thing without this cool stuff like just something and so it was just sort of going like okay there is just which is there just like just a way to just have a little refuge where we could just avoid that if we wanted to like obviously there's lots of women who are like oh no don't care I can use that but like I'll use anything I don't this stuff doesn't bother me and that's fine But then there are women who are just like, no, I'd like to just spend some time with women, basically, and talk and just connect and talk to women all around the world. So, yeah, I mean, I understand the need to justify it.

And obviously, like, I mean, I'm going to have to in court. But it is a weird situation where you're like, you know, there is an app out there right now. It's called only fans. it encourages like 18-year-old girls to get on there and take naked photos of themselves for like a depressingly small amount of money for most of them. And again, no one is asking anyone to justify this. But the moment it's like something for women, it's like, why? Why would you want that?

And I think the answer is because we do. Because we want it. I don't know if you have to go, you should have to go much further than that in sort of a, just in a social situation. I mean, look, I agree with you. But what does it say as to the wider society, to the way that we perceive women, to the way that women are, let's say, I mean, judged in one way or another, the fact that you want to set up an app, which is only for women, and for the vast majority of people, they go, well, yeah, okay, I get it, that makes sense. But to a small percentage of people, that is deemed to be offensive. I mean, what does that say? Well, yeah, I mean, because most men are lovely.

We wouldn't be functioning as a society if most men weren't lovely. And so most men don't even go near the thing. Like they just go, oh, that exists. Who cares? The moment a guy is trying to get onto it, you're like, the chances of you being a lovely guy is slim to none. But at the same time, like, it's like, say, to use the example that I'm going through, like, Roxanne Tickle can't go on the app for the exact same reason that my dad can't

The man that I trust more than any man in the world. So I'm not making necessarily a personal judgment on, like, the applicant in the case. It's just, they're just male. Just for no other reason. Like, it's just a guy. We'll be back with our guest in a minute. But first, we want to take a moment to talk about our partners, Give SendGo. If you need to raise funds online but don't want to hand over your money to face us big tech corporations,

then Give SendGo is a person. place to do it. GiveSango is a leading crowdfunding website where thousands of people in the US, the UK, Australia and Canada raise funds for anything from business ventures and medical expenses to personal needs, churches and funeral costs. On GiveSengo, you can raise money for whatever you need. We've met the people at GiveSeng Go and we can tell you that they're absolutely aligned with us here at Trigonometry on our approach to free speech. They've proved time, and again, they won't cave to the mob, they don't just talk the talk, they walk the walk, unlike other big tech companies. And that's why we are proud to partner with them.

They, like us, believe that with openness and honesty, will create more understanding and ultimately more harmony in the world. Gives and Go is absolutely free to use. With other crowdfunding sites, you'll pay between 5 and 10% of the money you raise. Gives and Go charges no money at all to use their platform. They believe you should be able to keep all the money that you raise. Starting a campaign on GiveSengGo is easy and intuitive. Go to give-sendgo.com today. That's give-sendgo.com to start raising money for whatever's important to you. And now, back to the interview. Sal, do you think a lot of this is happening because we've sort of tried to pretend for a while that there is no difference between men and women? And people have sort of

imbibed this idea, but actually there is quite a big difference. And I understand, by the way, the intention of the people who wanted to erase those differences, they wanted to protect, you know, they wanted to empower women. They wanted women to get into places where power was held, et cetera, et cetera. But we somehow ended up in a place where maybe that idea got taken to its logical conclusion and now we're here. Yeah, I wrestle with this a lot because, like, I think, you know, obviously, like, say feminism would be the ideology or like the belief system or whatever that would be talking about here because that's what is the one that did it. And, you know, there's nothing that's above criticism.

So I think that it's always important to just go like, oh, hang on, did they do something wrong or did they go too far? Yeah, I mean, I go like, even if there were just some feminist or women who called themselves self-identified as feminist that they're actually not. You sort of like lost their way a little bit and sort of overthought something that didn't even need to be thought about. I just go like, yeah, but still there was no feminist theory or want in society that was ever like implemented without like a massive fight. A huge huge of fights.

I mean, women, to get the right to vote was death. decades and very traumatic. Whereas this, in terms of how it was just implemented into society, an institutional capture and then into laws in stealth for most of the time. I just don't think that society went, this one feminist idea, we're going to really grab and just implement with no argument

and go with it and no debate, no questions. It just doesn't make sense to me. So while like there might have been some academics who are sort of talking nonsense, I don't know if that's really what caused this. I do think I'm sort of in agreement with like Helen Joyce on this, that it was like the autogynyophiles, there's sort of the sexual fetishists, especially the really powerful ones with like,

she calls it like the nuclear reactor in it. And just that drive and their money and power was potentially the thing to get us to where we are now more than anything else. In terms of where we are in legal capture, I think. Because they want more than anything else to be able to go into female-euvre spaces. And what is their argument, Sal? Because I'm sure that isn't it? What is their argument as to why they should be allowed to access your app?

Is it that you're being transphobic? Is it that you're not affirming their identity? Or is there something else? If they claim to be women, they are women according to the current definition, right? So you're discriminating as women. Well, what's really interesting about that is you would think then, if they actually thought if this individual as a woman or any man claims to be woman as a woman, then wouldn't it be sex discrimination? But they're like, no, this is gender identity discrimination. It's like, well, the fact that you're not even calling at sex discrimination

actually does prove to a point that you don't think this person is a woman either. You're just going in with an ideology that's been created. So the Australian Human Rights Commission has intervened in the case as Amicus Curia, which means friend of the court. They're definitely not my friend in the court. They have intervened and said, yes, this man is a woman. The submission that came out a few weeks ago, I can't even articulate it.

It is the most batshit insane 26 pages I've ever read in my entire life. It's like you're reading it going like this is like a draft for 1984 that Orwell went. No, no one will believe this. I've gone too far. Like let's strip it back. They literally say that biologists, this is the sex discrimination commissioner saying this, sex is not binary, but it can also be changed. they at one point they were saying that um a trans woman's desire to be pregnant would mean that they are a

woman and what on earth are you talking about like we're talking about a man here and so you just like they don't really have any arguments beyond we say he's a woman so therefore he's a woman and and sex can be changed so there you go and you're like but where's your evidence like that's one of the craziest things in the whole process. And I think some other people who have had to go through legal processes with this, with gender ideology specifically would feel the same. You're in this position where you've got to find all of this evidence and, you know, argue your case and make sure you can back it up with facts. But at no point is anyone going, should we get evidence that he's a woman? I'm like, because that stops there for me. Like if you're just being able to assert he's a woman,

And that's just not how the legal process works in any other area from my understanding was always been evidenced based. And, you know, you go like, you know, one of the things in the Human Rights Commission submission and description of the law, they're saying, you know, it's a gender identity and it's gendered behavior. And you're like, well, you know, if we're talking about lived experience or anything here, this gendered behavior is exactly how I would expect a man to behave. Like, where does my lived experience come into it?

Like, during this process, I was pregnant. I had a 20-week scan. I found out that I was having a girl. Does that mean nothing? Like, just... No, it just means you're transphobic. Yeah. But I want to ask you, do you think that the...

This is all about the invention of this idea of gender identity. And everything else cascades down from that. We've had this conversation with many people on the shows, you know. I remain highly unconvinced that the creation of the concept of gender was a useful, a good thing. And it seems to me like once you say, well, there's sex and then there is gender and you can change your gender, this inevitably follows because the concept of gender is sort of how you behave makes what you are. and then, well, then people can pretend to be whatever they want because they can wear a dress and then suddenly they are a woman. Yeah, I mean, there is an argument to be made that gender does not need to be in the law at all

and it would actually be better for society if it wasn't because, first of all, you know, making an identity, especially sort of, you know, just this self-declared identity, the responsibility of the law is incredibly difficult and messy. But even just like the protection of sex, which everybody has, and it's easy to acknowledge and establish and everything, it actually does all of the work in the law. So like if you are a man who wants to wear women's clothes or whatever, which like I am very like live and let live,

even if I don't like the reason why he wants to wear women's clothes, like whether it is autogynophilia or something, still I'm like in a free society I can't stop you like go and wear women's clothes the law doesn't have to be involved in any specific way because if say in an employment situation you would think that if he wanted to wear women's clothes and he was told he was not allowed it would be on the basis of his sex that he wasn't allowed because they'd be going you're a male and so you can't wear women's clothes but if so that would be that would be a sex discrimination you would think so So, gender doesn't need to be there.

The state should stay out of people's brains like this. It doesn't need to happen. It should just be there to make sure society is functioning, but gender has made it that nothing is functioning. Like, everything is falling apart. Everything's getting distracted because of this, like the stupidest issue of all time. Yeah, and it's, look, and let's be brutally honest about this. Australia don't have a good record for the last couple of years.

for staying out of people's lives. We saw that during COVID. You went to use a technical term, absolutely back shit as a result of that. Yeah, it's interesting. It's one of those situations where when you're living here, you don't feel it like slowly creeping in.

It's just very sudden you sort of wake up one day and you go, oh, it's got, it's got, it's been happening for years. Yeah, it's unusual because Australians are pretty easygoing people were also pretty straightforward and like so no bullshit kind of people. So there is definitely like there is that. I mean it's like in the UK. It's like in the US and Canada.

It was so divided right now of basically the people have bought into all of this crap and seem to apparently love being told what to think. And then you've got all of the other people who are like, no, I'd prefer to think on my own things. So yeah, that's part of how I missed it, like that it was. even all happening with the gender stuff as I was focusing on, I was still like Me Too bubble also in my online like algorithms. I was very much in like an I hate Trump Twitter bubble.

I didn't tweet, but I would read everything. So I completely missed that this was going on. And then COVID happened and I was starting to go, oh, oh, that's a bit weird. And then, yeah, we all woke up to find out that, oh, hey, you don't have that many rights anymore. It was weird to watch, certainly, from us. And it's not like the UK was particularly good on that stuff either. And tell us more about how the legal case has gone and what your expectations are for the future. Yeah.

So we basically, so he'd done last year, he'd done the Australian human rights complaint. I could have gone to conciliation with that. And that's where they try and resolve it outside of the courts, basically, like a mediation type thing. I'm sorry to interrupt up. What does this guy want? He wants to be on the app. He wants compensation. Yes.

Yes, and yes. And he wants a written apology and all men who claim to women on the app. In court, he's going for money as well for damages. But in the initial human rights, he wasn't. The conditions for me to go to conciliation were that I'd have to look him on the app. All men think to be on the app. An apology, attend sex and gender education, which could only be re-education, because I am very educated on this issue. Like, I can teach the death class.

So they want, sorry, sorry to interrupt, but I think this is important not to skip over. Part of the things that you will do if you lose this case, you have to go on a re-education course. No, no, this was in reconciliation. Sorry, okay. So this was in the Human Rights Commission. And then the other thing was that they wanted me to moderate all content on the app so that men like him would not be offended. Because basically there are a lot of women just turfing out on there and talking about

their rights. And because of course they can. They can go and talk about them without trans activists, male trans activists getting abused. Now, a female trans activist would be welcome to come onto the app so long as she was civil and didn't harass and just divided by the rules. It's like you don't. There's no like thought control or anything. No one has to agree with everything. But I mean, they basically stayed away from it. It was only the men who were trying to get on. So I said no to conciliation because I knew that I was never going to agree to those terms. And then also by this point, I was like third trimester pregnancy. And I didn't with the stress of it, I was not putting myself through it. Not going to happen. And so he said no to it and knowing that the risk could be that he'd take it to federal court. So then he had 60 days to find. He filed on the 61st day, the 60th day, but just how the day is felt it was the 61st. Then he withdrew about a month later, which we were like, oh, basically that's a win.

Like we've won this. And then he refiled again about five and a half months later, like Christmas time last year. So when he refiled again, he was what sparses out of time, like beyond like the time from the complaint to when he was able to do it. So he had to get granted permission for the case to be heard. And by this point, I was like, we could have really pushed back on that. But I was like, no, you want a day in court? Okay. I'm not going to push back on this.

Like, it has, we have to resolve this. And if this is the case, it's going to help resolve it. I'll take it on. Like, you know, you don't want to do it, but you're sort of in the position where you're like, okay, I'm just going to rise to the occasion because maybe, hopefully we can just end this and we can all live on with our lives and have some normality back. So in the case, yeah, he's asking for, yeah, money for damages. How much money, so?

Well, I'm not sure because Australian damages work very specifically. So, like, I don't think that it's not, I don't think it's like millions and millions of dollars. It wouldn't shock me at this point. I mean, who knows? But it's still just money. Like, it is a thing we just go like, it's just an app. It's just an app. Like, I don't.

But it's not, though. You know that, right? Because this isn't enough. This is about the principle. That's why you're fighting it because of the principle. No, exactly. So it's just, yeah. So basically, and actually this, just to go back to your point earlier about,

about people being able to choose who are on their platform and who are not and where sort of is the line with that. So for us, we built our own crowdfunding platform because they had the resources. to do it, like the ability to do it. And we knew that we would get kicked off, like, GoFundMe or anything like that, because they are all captured by this stuff. So, like, just, I don't want the stress of it.

We'll just cut it out. We'll build our own. We have been, so then building our own, we had to put in payment systems, like so that, you know, you can just put your card details in or Apple and Google pay, whatever. So we've been kicked off to payment platforms

on the basis of complaints, been kicked off strife, and we've been kicked off square. So the crowd funder is actually down at the moment because we're trying to find a third. We're in the process of fixing it. It'll be fixed in the next few days, thankfully. But both of the times that it's happened,

it's obviously a huge inconvenience and it's really frustrating, but I've always sat there and gone, well, if you don't want us to use your platform, I respect that. I don't love it, but I respect it. I'm not going to go and take you to court over it. What I would like is the right,

to do the same thing, is to choose who is, and who is not on my platform. So even during this process, I've experienced people having the rights that I would like to have. And, yeah, not, hopefully we'll get there. And I think we will. Like, I'm very, very optimistic about it because I just think, I just think truth has to win out eventually. Sometimes you have to fight for it, but I think you get there in the end.

It's just, yeah. Yeah, I mean, I hope that as well. My question is, and look, maybe you don't know the answer to this. How is he getting his money? So from my understanding, his legal team is pro bono because, you know, I mean, you're a big, big, you know, civil rights, human rights case. You know, poor transgender woman not being allowed to go on an app. This is a big case. So that's taken care of.

And then he also got a $50,000 grant from, it's called the Brata Fund, which is like a, they give funding to like legislation challenges and things like that. So, yeah, I mean, but in a case like this, what, you know, a federal court case, $50,000 is lunch. So it's not like an obscene amount of money that he's been given. But, yeah, I mean, the financial threat. to him is significantly different than what it is to me. Like, obviously, there is no government funds that I can go to to us for money because I'm

battling the government and they're against me. So while the case is obviously like tickle be giggle, it is fundamentally because of the Australian Human Rights Commission, it's Giggle versus the government. Wow. And what happens if you win? Do they have to rethink the law? Is that why you're doing this? Or what happens?

So there's a few different ways that it can go. So we're expecting that it's going to go to the high court no matter what, because if we were to lose in federal court, obviously we're going to appeal it to the high court. And if they lose, especially the Australian Rights Commission, lose in the federal court, there's a huge chance that they would take it to the high court. So you're sort of in this now going, like, it's high chance it's going to go to the high court. So the high court is really where the constitutional arguments will come into play for my understanding. So if we were to win on a constitutional basis, and it was to be found that gender being in the Sex Discrimination Act is unconstitutional.

And part of the reason for that is with CEDAW, which is like the UN and CEDAW and the protection of women's rights and all that I'm going to have a complete brain fart of what it all stands for. But anyway, look it up. It's all very important. You know, we're a signatory in that. And they, you know, this is not an organization that claims that trans women are women and our sex discrimination act is based on this. So that's part of where our constitutional argument comes in. If we win that constitutional argument in the High Court, it would mean that gender is taken out of the Sex Discrimination Act. So it would mean that sex is, once again, the defining factor

of the Sex Discrimination Act, which is what a stupid sentence to have to say. But it would mean that female-only spaces were female-only sports and male-only spaces as well, because I think that men deserve privacy and dignity in male spaces as well. It would mean that self-ID was off the table. It would just end it. And so they're not obviously going to go just slink away and be like, oh, well, we gave it a shot. They would obviously try and come back and weave it through the law in a different way, but they'd be doing it where sex had been established as the important thing.

and also people knowing what's going on and watching. So it will change the climate of it, definitely. It sounds like a really important case to me, actually, Sal, because I think one of the things that has been happening is there's a tremendous amount of cowardice, actually, around this issue. And I think everybody is just looking for somebody to take the first step. And so if Australia was to come to a position as a result of you winning where you were forced to refusely,

think the sort of structural legal underpinning of all of this. I think a lot of other anglosphere countries might might then be emboldened to follow suit. Definitely. I mean, it's like how like, you know, in the UK where you guys are in such a better position than we are on this particular issue. You know, part of the reason is because women in the UK took it to the courts and they won. And we just, we didn't have a chance to take it to the courts before a lot of the stuff was done because we didn't know about it. And so we are undoing some of the damage, so it is just bigger and a little bit harder, but it's still completely entirely possible.

I mean, laws get repealed all the time. It's not out of the ordinary. So, yeah, it's just, it will be hopefully the thing that makes other countries, like especially Canada, for example, if you think of other Commonwealth countries to make them go, oh, hang on, maybe there's something in this. I mean, just last week, a news organization in Australia called news.com.com. Which is very much against us. They call me a conservative media figure all the time because...

Welcome to the club. Yeah. But it's really, they only ever refer to me as like a media figure or a conservative media figure. And I'm like, and why am I a media figure? What am I talking about? Like, they won't give any publicity to giggle or anything. Like, they won't tell people what I actually do. But they just did a poll and found that only 4.2% of Australians think trans women are women.

And like 82.5% of Australians don't want trans women, men in women's sport. It's like, this is like deeply unpopular in the public. It's just the institutional level. Yeah. Well, Matt Goodwin, who's a regular guest of us, as you know, he tweeted something recently, which basically shows that support for self-fell. ID and all of this stuff is just going through the floor as people get more educated about the issues. And it's not surprising because surprise, surprise, it's not that complicated.

This issue is not that complicated, actually. That's what transphobes. But it's like how the transactive is try and spin it and say like there's an increasing amount of transphobia in society. And it's not. It's just more people realizing that these gender policies are nonsense. And so you might back against them. like if like the transgender activism community had gone look we just are a demographic of people who you know like to appear like the opposite sex I think I think it would have been pretty easy to get people to be like okay about that like most people are let live and let live

don't really care if it doesn't bother me you know get on with it it's because they said that we have to believe this lie you know in fear of punishment that we've all fought back like if it was just a situation, like, with it's even Roxy Tickle, I'm like, if you want to get up every day and call yourself a woman and wear women's clothes and take hormones or whatever, that's none of my business.

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That's drinkag1.com slash trigonometry. That's drinkag1.com slash trigonometry. Check it out. And now back to the interview. There's more and more places in Australia that are fighting back. the lesbian action groups, which is a Melbourne-based group, they're trying to get an exemption to be able to hold a female-only lesbian event like there's any other kind. And the Australian rights commission has just said no to them.

And so therefore... Wait, so lesbians can't have a female-only event? No, not in Australia at the moment. Our case will fix that. But at the moment, no, because the reasoning is so bizarre. basically they're all like you know it's against discrimination it's like well you're not because you're discriminating against lesbians right now

but you've just made a choice discriminate against lesbians or discriminate against heterosexual men who like to wear dresses and you made your choice you discriminated against lesbians so they are fighting back and willing to take it all of the way as well which is fantastic

but yeah I mean that's that's where it is in society like one of the women in lesbian action group. She phrased it so well. She said that, you know, she can get married now, but she can't go to a lesbian event to meet a spouse. So, yeah, like, so it's like we're not going forward in society. We're going backwards at a very, very fast-paced. And whatever happens, I mean, to be blunt, you were going to end up in the high court because if tickle, I mean, this is just bizarre,

loses in the constitutional court, he's going to take it to the high court because he's not going to to accept that? I would imagine so. I don't know if it would be more him specifically, if it would be the Australian Human Rights Commission. I would sort of think that the Australian Human Rights Commission, who would sort of say, you know, we're going to fight to the end on this. Because, I mean, the Australian Human Rights Commission, from my understanding of what I've read about it, they were one of the ones who lobbied for these laws. So I think they are really there sort of protecting the law that they fought for that they wrote. And I mean, so I understand, like, just from that perspective, why they would be there fighting it for the law.

It would be probably quite a normal process. It's just that they've written a law that is so insane that, you know, they just didn't, it's like they just didn't think of, oh, like, what are the ramifications? Because it's like any part of gender ideology, like, if you think about it for more than one second, like, by the time you get to that second second, every part of it has fallen apart. Because you should go, like, oh, hang on, male rapists are going to say their women and go, am I going to reward them? by putting them in women's prisons, all female only spaces and sport, all of that, that's gone. But then also society's freedom of belief

or freedom of speech, it's just gone in an instant. Like they just didn't think it through. They were just like, oh, protect this one group. And no. Well said. Be protected more than anyone else. Well said, so listen, I want to move on to our local sections because we've got a ton of questions

from our supporters. But I just wanted to say that, you know, you and I've spoken a little bit on Twitter and stuff. And I'm really glad we had you on because I don't think I fully appreciated the significance of the case you're fighting and the potential impact, actually not just in Australia, but in the world. So I really hope that obviously you do win. And I hope that people support you. Is there a way that people can support you at the moment? Well, yes. So, like, hopefully by the time this comes out, it will all be up and running hopefully in the next few days.

basically it should all be back to normal, hopefully. But it's gigglecrowdfund.com. That's our crowdfund. And there's all information about the case and the constitutional challenge is all there. And yeah, I mean, we have 500,000 Australian dollars to raise at this stage, which is just like so incredibly stressful. But, yeah, I know that we'll get there.

And we've had the kindness of strangers from all around the world so far has been just absolutely amazing. and the only way I can repay it back is by saying, like, we'll get your rights back. It will be all cool. And then you can go around calling a man a man and everything will be fantastic. Well, it's a good cause. Sal, before we go over to locals, we obviously, as you know, end with the same question in this part of the interview, which is, What is a woman?

What's the one thing we're not talking about that we really should be? I think it does sort of come back to everything that I've just been saying. I don't think we're talking enough about the fact that just like the very foundation of democracy, you know, the freedom of belief, freedom of speech, freedom of association is just at the altar of a demographic of men's feelings right now. And it's if we can't talk about that and then we can't fix it. And I'm just not willing to give up, you know, just this real democracy, the most important thing. for these people. I'm just, I'm not willing to do it.

You know what? I will say this, even though I'm instantly going to fall into the feminist trap of hashtag not all men. But I, it's not men's feelings. It's a very small subset of men. I said demographic of men. It's a demographic of men. Yeah. It's a very specific is my point. Very specific. Like, whenever I talk about this, Deb, like, I'll say, oh, a demographic of men. I'll say this on Twitter and they'll be like, oh, not all men. I'm like, if you don't fit into that demographic, I'm not talking about you. Exactly. It is a very specific demographic.

I'm just saying, I think there are actually a lot of men on your side. And I think that's, you know, one of the reasons I think progress is being made is actually is men and women coming together and working together, which I think we want. Yeah, exactly. I think that's amazing. And I think, you know, men have spoken up sometimes that they've been in a position more where they're not getting rape threats and death threats for speaking up the same sort of rate that a woman is. I mean, there are men around the world who are losing their jobs and being punished.

Don't get me wrong and I don't want to ever minimize that. But I think, you know, for a lot of men that they have seen that it's not even just an attack on women's rights. It is an attack on our basic freedoms. And even from my perspective, if that's the only reason you're coming at this issue, I'm fine with that. Women's rights will be one as a byproduct. But so it's like if you're like, I don't really care about women's rights. I care about truth. Great. Like we're on the same team there. We'll get there in the end together and women's rights will be saved. Amen. Well, head on over to locals where we continue the conversation, especially with your questions. Do you think the trans phenomenon is a woke fad or is it here to stay?