TRIGGERnometry - Gambling Companies Turn Addiction Into Profit

Episode Date: March 7, 2022

Matt Zarb-Cousin is a recovered gambling addict and now co-founder of Gamban, software that blocks access to gambling sites and apps on devices. Join our exclusive TRIGGERnometry community on Locals! https://triggernometry.locals.com/ OR Support TRIGGERnometry Here: https://www.subscribestar.com/triggernometry https://www.patreon.com/triggerpod Bitcoin: bc1qm6vvhduc6s3rvy8u76sllmrfpynfv94qw8p8d5 Buy Merch Here: https://www.triggerpod.co.uk/shop/​​​ Advertise on TRIGGERnometry: [e-mail] Join the Mailing List: https://www.triggerpod.co.uk/sign-up/​​​ Find TRIGGERnometry on Social Media:  https://twitter.com/triggerpod​​​ https://www.facebook.com/triggerpod​​​ https://www.instagram.com/triggerpod​​​ About TRIGGERnometry:  Stand-up comedians Konstantin Kisin (@konstantinkisin) and Francis Foster (@francisjfoster) make sense of politics, economics, free speech, AI, drug policy and WW3 with the help of presidential advisors, renowned economists, award-winning journalists, controversial writers, leading scientists and notorious comedians. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Gambling is very neurologically similar gambling addiction to cocaine addiction. It's difficult for people to comprehend, I accept, because it isn't a substance. And you think, how do you get addicted to something that isn't a substance? How is it having that effect on those neurological pathways in the same way cocaine does? But it's a physiological addiction. Hello, and welcome to Trigonometry. I'm Francis Foster. I'm Constantine Kitten.

And this is a show for you, if you want honest conversations with fascinating. people. Our brilliant guest today is the director of Clean Up Gambling. Mad Zab Cousin, welcome to Trignometry. Thanks for having me on. It's great to have you on. Listen, before we get into talking about what we're going to talk about, tell everybody a little bit about who are you, how are you where you are, what has been your journey through life that leads you to be sitting here talking to us. Oh, well, I'm a campaigner for gambling reform, and I was addicted to gambling when I was younger. I got addicted to fixed odds betting terminals from the age of 16 and, yeah, got into huge amount of debt and had a profound impact on my life when I was young and mental health.

And then thankfully, after that, managed to get treatment and support and got out of the addiction and finished my degree and then went into politics, worked for a couple of MPs, and then started campaigning against fixed odds betting terminals when I was about 22. and that was a campaign that spanned many years, but we got that over the line, and that was enacted in 2019. We campaigned for the maximum state to be reduced from £100 down to £2 £2 a spin.

And since then, I've been pushing for reforms of online gambling, so a wide spectrum of different policy areas that we're hoping to address. But in the middle of all of that, I was a spokesperson for Jeremy Corbyn between 2016 and 2017. I'm off. We'll maybe talk about that towards the end of the internet because we had a fascinating conversation about it.

We were talking before and Francis was telling you that we've obviously we've got advertisers that advertise on our show and we'd never really had any big issue with advertising various things that were being offered. But we got a suggestion of an ad for a gambling company once. And the guys didn't particularly mind, but I don't know why. I had a really strong feeling that I don't want to be advertising this. And I don't even necessarily, I couldn't formulate why. But I do think there's something about it that, you know, like when you were addicted and you lost all that money, how much in the whole were you?

I was about 20,000 down by the age of 20. It took me quite a few years to pay it off. And yeah, so I mean that's the thing. It has quite significant long-term, medium-term, long-term consequences as well. Like you can stop gambling, but then you have all of the, you're trying to pay back all the debts and you're trying to repair all the damage that it's caused and that can take a number of years as well. So, yeah, look, I think your instincts are probably.

probably right. Like, I think what people don't, aren't really aware of is that the business model is very much trying to extract as much as possible from the people that become addicted. So, for example, between 60 and 80% of the profits for online gambling are coming from the 5% of people that are either problem or at-risk gamblers. So the vast majority of the revenues are coming from people who are losing more than they can afford. So when you've got a business model like that, your core customer base that's driving the majority of your revenue is constantly going broke.

So you need to replace it. So this is where the huge spend on advertising comes in. And it's not just advertising on podcasts and TV and digital ads. It's also affiliate marketing. There's some affiliates that will get between 50 and 75% of someone's losses if they get someone to sign up to a gambling site through them. They didn't offer us that deal. If they did, we definitely would have taken it.

That would be very tempting, I can imagine. Yeah. So, I mean, that's the thing. It's a constant, like, clamor for player acquisition. You need new addicts. They need new people all the time, yeah, because they're customer-based that, you know, the average account lasts a year.

So a customer will have an account on average for a year. And in that time, they will either get addicted and lose all the money they have access to or they just get bored. and there's very few people in between. There are people in between, of course, and there'll be people watching this who will bet occasionally, but it's not those people that bet every now and again infrequently

that are driving the majority of the revenue. That's not the reason that we have 10 Premier League teams sponsored by gambling companies. It's the people that are losing life-altering sums of money, unfortunately. Matt, and how do you know this? Where do these stats come from? Because what you've just said is horrific, because essentially they've found a way to monetise addiction.

They have, yeah. I mean, so there's various different studies that the 60% from 5% comes from the House of Lords Gambling Industry Select Committee. And there was an estimate recently from Natsen and Gamble Aware, which I think it was 86% coming from 5%. 86% of the profits coming for the 5% of the customers. So lots of different estimates based on different data that we have access to, different researchers have access to, but the overwhelming picture is that you have a business model effectively

that relies on people losing more than they can afford, a subset of the customer base. And in that context, it's not in their commercial interest to reduce harm. If they reduce harm, they're going to reduce their profits. And that means, you know, that means that they're going to have to stand up in front of their shareholders and say, this next quarter, we're going to reduce addiction and we're going to reduce profits as a result. It's just not viable. It's not possible for them to do it through self-regulation. So this is why we push the regulations. I think it's a market that does need regulation. Otherwise, you just end up with the vendor extracting as much as they can from the consumer in that kind of antagonistic relationship. And why are you not pushing for complete

prohibition? I don't think prohibition works. I think it's better to have a legal and regulated market but properly regulated. The problem we have is we have a legal market, but it isn't properly regulated. It's a bit like if, and I think there are some analogies with drug policy, but it's a bit like if we were to legalise drugs, which I would be very sympathetic towards,

and decided to, instead of regulating supply and regulating consumption, we just decided to liberalise the market completely and allow suppliers to advertise on TV and had no limits to what you could purchase and didn't invest properly in treatment. That's another problem that we have as well with gambling. So all of these things, you think,

well, all the benefits of having something that's regulated, legalised and regulated properly are being missed in gambling because we're just not applying proper regulation to it. Matt, is there no... There must be a body that regulates the gambling industry. There is the Gambling Commission, and the Gambling Commission was conceived of in the early 2000s

and was formed after the 2005 Gambling Act. It took the Gambling Commission seven years to start licensing online gambling. So that was basically a Wild West for seven years. From 2007, when the Gambling Commission was formed to 2014, and ever since then it's been playing catch-up. So effectively, you've had these online gambling operators that all went offshore to tax havens, so they're not paying corporation tax,

built their businesses up in low tax, low regulation jurisdictions, and were able to sell gambling their services to the British market without any oversight for so long. And as I say, the Gambling Commission ever since has been playing catch-up, but the problem is the legislation, the Gambling Act,

is it's not really geared towards regulating online gambling. It's mainly focused on venue based gambling, which is what we had in the early 2000s. Internet gambling was very, very primitive at that point. So I think, yeah, that's one of the things we're trying to do is just bring that legislation into the 21st century. And from the point of view of the sort of addiction itself, most people, I think watching this will have had the experience of smoking or drinking a bit too much or taking drugs or whatever addictions that people have. I think almost everyone can relate to the process of being addicted to something in one way or another. Is gambling similar or is it a different

thing entirely? Gambling is very neurologically similar gambling addiction to cocaine addiction. So there's been various studies on how it affects the brain. Now, it's difficult for people to comprehend, I accept, because it isn't a substance. And you think, how do you get addicted to something that isn't a substance? How is it having that effect on those neurological pathways in the same way cocaine does. But it's a physiological addiction. And I think that when you're looking at something like gambling addiction, for a long time, it's suited the gambling industry to propagate an argument that, and this fits in with the kind of responsible gambling paradigm, where like if people get addicted, it's because they've got something wrong with them. Like they're faulty

individuals. And, you know, we need to just look after this very small percentage of people that for some reason get addicted to gambling. And that's not really an evidence-based perspective. And the reality is that you have particular gambling products that are much more associated with gambling addiction than others. So, for example, online slots,

45% of people that engage with online slots are either problem or at-risk gamblers. So compare that fixed-odd betting terminals was around 50%. What's a fixed-odd betting terminal, Matt? Just for clarification. Yeah, so that's a machine in a betting shop where you can bet, you used to be able to bet up to £100 every 20 seconds on roulette and slops.

Wow. And we've reduced that to £2 a spin in 2019. So that was obviously a very welcome change. But I think the, yeah, I think the understanding that gambling products can have a role in inducing or exacerbating gambling harm, you know, that was recognised. with that policy change. And I think that that now needs to be applied to different products online. At the moment, there's no limits to the stakes on online slots, for example. So the amount people can lose is limitless. And it can happen very quickly. And unlike with other addictions, as you mentioned, it's so easy to keep gambling addiction a secret. There's no physical signs

or no obvious physical signs. People can feel as though that by gambling, they can win their way out of trouble. They can actually solve the problems their addiction has caused by carrying on with the thing they're addicted to, which is quite, I think, unique compared to drinking or drugs. So, yeah, I mean, it's incredibly dangerous for many reasons. And the harms extend beyond the individual. Very often, it's families that will, you know,

bear the brunt of someone's gambling and workplaces and communities if people steal from work to fund their addiction. So there's a huge knock-on effect. And at the middle of it, you've got a sector, which is kind of reaping the rewards at the expense of everyone else, while being primarily based in tax havens. And you think, well, this is an obvious kind of area that needs regulation. Yeah. And one of the questions I was going to ask is I think I've been in the casino, I think twice in my life. And I found it quite a scary experience in some way because I remember I had this chip in my hand that was worth 100,000.

quid or 200 quid, it did not feel like what I was placing on the table was 100 pounds worth, because 100 pounds is a lot of money, particularly in that moment it was a lot of money to me. But it just, it changed the experience. And I imagine gambling online does that even more. It doesn't feel like real money. People often say that about credit cards. When they spend money on a credit card, it doesn't feel like real money. Is that part of the process where there's a kind of disassociation from reality of

of how much money you're playing with and gambling away? Yeah, absolutely. This association is very much a part of it. And yeah, online, obviously, there's the propensity to have repeat deposits. You can deposit money into an online gambling account. There's no real checks. You can just keep depositing as much as you can,

the much as you want to. And before you know, you've lost all your money because you've been in that cycle of loss chasing. And yeah, there's a huge disassociative effect with online gambling. and we are the first generation that has access to casino games at high speed in our pockets. Historically, there was one point in Europe where roulette was banned everywhere, and the only place you could play it was Monte Carlo because there was a recognition that it was an addictive game,

an addictive product. And of course, you know, it's better to have access to roulette and allow it to be played in a legal and regulated environment. for people that want to play it. But the idea that this should be on every device that everyone walks around with and there shouldn't be any limits to the amount of people can gamble and no stake limits and no real checks,

it's a dangerous experiment. And I think that unfortunately, we're starting to see the results of it. And Matt, how do you know if you're developing an addiction to gambling? Because I think most people would know by looking at someone that they're developing in an addiction

to booze. But like you said, on the surface, someone could potentially be a gambling addict and you'd be none the wiser. Yeah, absolutely. I think this, I mean, if you're looking for signs in others, I think if someone you know is like never seems to have any money or is withdrawn and not coming out as much. You're addicted to gambling, mate. I think that that's a, that's a sign, like, but you really do have to read between the lines. It's so easy. I mean, I say it's easy. I'm been, I remember being in that position myself where I was, became very good at lying because I trying to conceal it. And you do it because you think you're protecting other people in a way, like you think, I don't want people to worry about me, so I will, you know, keep this to myself.

But really, you know, you need help. And I think, recognising that if you're in that cycle of loss chasing, if you're gambling is becoming a preoccupation and you're constantly thinking about your next bet, that's when it's starting to become an addiction. And, you know, I think at that point, it's good to kind of reflect on that and seek help if you need to and you want to because there is help available and you can get out of it. And it's better to do it early as well. I mean, the problem at the moment with the regulations is it's still a bit of a wild west. So that, it's like exponential curve addiction, gambling addiction. You start gambling maybe sporadically.

Then you're stuck getting really into it and then you'll be gambling more than you thought you would ever start gambling. And then before you know it, you have a session or two where you've lost way more than you had planned to or can afford to and then you're chasing losses and then you've cleaned out your bank account and you think how the hell did that happen? So it can happen very quickly and it's a bit like if you start if you start drinking, if you start

having a few pints, when you're in the middle of that drinking session, your judgment is obviously different before you started. And it's the same with gambling. Once you start gambling, when you're in that gambling session, it does affect your decision making. So yeah, this is why I think, you know, it's a really good idea to have proper limits before you start. And do they, does gambling tend to come with other addictions? Like, do people tend to develop a gambling addiction plus alcoholism, or does it live most often on its own? There are comorbidities, but I think that, I mean, there are plenty of examples of people that get addicted to just gambling.

And, you know, I think that one might lead to the other in certain circumstances. But, yeah, I think that gambling addiction ought to be treated separately to other addictions. It's not just this person is an addict. You know, there are different things are happening in the brain. with different addictions. When you were comparing it to cocaine, isn't it more similar to compare it to pornography addiction in a way?

I'm not sure, I don't know much about it, pornography addiction. I think it was speaking neurologically when you were talking about cocaine. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, quite possibly. But yeah, neurologically, that's it. It was that research on the parallels with cocaine addiction

that shifted, there's something called the diagnostic and statistical manual of mental disorders, DSM. And from DSM 4 to DSM 5, it moved gambling from an impulse control disorder, which I think is where pornography sits still to an addiction on a par with drugs and alcohol. When we had David Nutt on the show to talk about, Francis was asking about what predisposes people to alcoholism. One of the things she said is there's clearly a genetic component or potentially a genetic component because one of the strongest predictors, particularly for men of being addicted

to alcohol is a father who's an alcoholic. Is there been any research on what might predispose someone to being addicted to gambling? Yeah, I think there are factors, certainly. I mean, the genetic question is interesting. I think that that could also be behavioral conditioning. It could be that you're taking cues from that parents. Sure. Yeah, yeah.

There's lots of examples of parents taking their children to the races when they're young, you know and they have that good experience and that stays with them and and that can manifest itself in different ways as you get older but there has definitely been a lot of research into into that i think it's difficult to determine my from my perspective like yes there may be you may be more vulnerable to gambling addiction if you have a pre-existing mental health condition you know if you have anxiety or if you have other mental health problems um but The thing that we can actually control is the regulation of gambling. So that's always been my focus.

I mean, we can't do much about people's genetic predispositions, but what we can do is regulate the industry. And if there are particular products that are associated with gambling harm, then, you know, it's best to focus on those. So if you were going to introduce regulation, what would you actually do, Matt? So there's a few things I'd do. I mean, as I mentioned before, the, the gambling legislation at the moment was conceived of at a time before kind of internet gambling really took off

and in that legislation there are provisions to regulate stakes and prizes on machines and that's one of the things that we changed with fixed-dust betting terminals from £100 down to £2 £2 £2.000 And I think that there needs to be similar controls on the same content online. So slots for example there needs to be a limit of £2 a spin as there is on easily accessible machines in different gambling venues. and I think as well as that I'd like to see restrictions on advertising around football particularly I mean I think there's an argument to end all gambling advertising of the industry in its current form given the way it's currently constituted but I can see that why people would argue for kind of carve-outs for racing on TV

when you know that televised racing kind of depends on gambling ads I would put more money into treatment and research independent research through a levy on the industry. I'd like to see an ombudsman at the moment. I mean, this is astonishing really this is allowed to happen. But if you're not paid out by a gambling operator or you're treated particularly unfairly, there's no consumer ombudsman.

So they can just take your money and that's it. And on very many occasions they've done this. They've also been able to, because of use of big data, and how that's kind of permeated into bookmaking and the operation of gambling, commercial gambling, they're able to kind of predict whether you are going to be a winning gambler. So on products like slots and roulette,

mathematically impossible to win in the long term. But in theory, you could win in the longer term playing, betting on, racing or football if you had an edge over the bookmaker or, I don't know, table tennis or something. But if they're able to predict that within quite frightening accuracy, based on your betting patterns initially, how much you're going to win or lose over a 12-month period. And if you're not going to be profitable to them, then they will restrict your account or close your account. And they're allowed to do that.

And there are very many examples of people who haven't even been making a huge amount of money whose bets get restricted down to 10p, 20p, just because they're going to win. So what people need to be aware of is you can't win. And there is no provision or mechanism for consumer redress. So if you want to complain to someone, you can complain to the Gambling Commission and they might take enforcement action if there's a breach of a licence conditions, but they're not going to advocate on your behalf. So this is why we need a gambling ombudsman. Hey, Constantine, do you love trigonometry?

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See you there, guys. And let's explore some of the counter arguments a little bit because we haven't done that yet. So one of the things is, one of the things people might say is, well, I agree with you, gambling is designed in a way that you can't win, right, over the long term. But people might say it's the same reason why people buy lottery tickets. They're not actually buying a lottery ticket because they think, statistically speaking, this is the best investment of money to grow their portfolio. It's because they enjoy the experience of thinking they might win.

So you're not buying a win. you're buying the emotional experience of, oh, I could win. So isn't that quite a reasonable thing for people to pay for that experience, if you like? Yeah, I think this is, I completely agree. I wouldn't even say that that was necessarily a counter argument to what I'm trying to say is it's actually, that's true. And it is, I think it is, for many people, a form of entertainment. Yeah. And it is a legitimate form of entertainment.

the problems start when that form of entertainment starts costing people their rent money and starts costing families, you know, Christmas presents and, you know, all sorts of knock-on effects from gambling that is supposed to be entertainment. And, you know, the gambling industry has been quite resistant to the idea of affordability checks for people who are losing, you know, significant sums of money. but if it is an entertainment product, if it is something like equivalent to going to the cinema

or whatever people do for fun these days, I don't know, I don't really have much fun. You can tell you used to work for Jeremy Corbyn, can you? Yeah, then, you know, the kind of money that's spent on it should arguably be in that kind of ballpark. Yeah, you can't lose 20 grand of the cinema,

I get it. What about, you know, the inevitable comparison with alcohol or whatever? Like this point, the 80-20 rule, which is 20% of the customers provide 80% of the profits. That's how it is in almost every business. It will be the same with trigonometry. 20% are probably far fewer than 20% of our viewership will send 80% of the money that we used to fund the show. Right. So in terms of that, isn't that the case with everything, with alcohol, like the people

who provide a lot of the profits for alcohol businesses would be people who drink a lot, inevitably, right? So that's kind of the case everywhere. Yeah, I think 80-20 would be an improvement on the current status quo with gambling. I mean, it's about, as I said, it's about 86-5 at the moment, so it does rely significantly on, and in that five, it's not these people really like gambling. I mean, some of them might, but like it's predominantly people. It's predominantly people who are losing more than they can afford and are actually not having a great time. So I think that that's a, yeah, a factor. And what would you think about the argument, Matt, of people going,

which is a more, dare I say, libertarian argument, which is, look, people are adults. If people want to do that, then they're going to do that. You know, we live in a free society, people are going to make stupid choices, stupid decisions, and that's their responsibility as an adult to do that. Yeah, I think that there is, I mean, like, personally speaking, I do take responsibility, a hat to for my recovery and, like, no one's going to recover from gambling addiction for me. So, yeah, obviously there is that element, but I think what we don't talk about is the responsibility of, like, the gambling industry

and the responsibility of other actors in society, like the government and the regulator, is it fit for purpose, is it doing its job properly? and from my perspective they're not being responsible and yeah individual responsibility can only take you so far. I also think like because you get this free market argument as well

which is kind of linked to that libertarian argument and I do think that gambling is quite unique in that it does cut across some of the logic of the market because in other sectors of the economy it is in the interest of the vendor

or the sector itself providing the service to do so in a way that the consumer likes and wants to return to, to do so at a cost that's palatable to the individual. But in gambling, there is an antagonism between the consumer and the vendor. The vendor wants to screw the consumer, right? So in that context, the market doesn't work.

The market logic doesn't really apply. I think that's why when we started the conversation, that was my hesitation about gambling because I feel, and look, I haven't explored this argument in nearly enough detail to be able to say this is my opinion. But instinctively, my feeling was this is a uniquely exploitative industry, which really wants to extract all the profit it can from individuals. And there's absolutely no intention for that to be a long-term relationship of any kind. Even a drug dealer wants you to keep coming back, whereas from based on what you're saying is it's more like let's get all your money, get you bankrupt, and then we'll get another addict. Get someone else, yeah. But here's another counter argument that I always think about because I definitely have a very addictive personality. And the way I've learned to regulate that for me is I just force myself to get addicted to good things, right?

So rather than being addicted to alcohol or, you know, computer games or whatever, which I enjoy. I enjoy playing my games. I enjoy having a drink every now and again, but it's never been that way addicted for me. I try to get addicted to building this to be the best YouTube show that it can be to when I was doing comedy. And I did go quite far in terms of undermining my relationships and stuff. But still, my point is I feel that no,

and I've done lots of personal development and all that sort of thing, I don't believe that I will never be, I will ever get to a point where I don't find things addictive. And so I've always thought that, like, addiction quite often, you can deal with someone who's gambling, let's say. But if gambling wasn't available to them, they'd probably find something else. Do you see what I'm saying?

Is that a fair argument? I know what you mean. And if someone who's become addicted to gambling, they may replace it with something else. Right. But it's that void that you replace it, you're filling that void with something that you hope would be more productive and more rewarding for that individual. I mean, gambling is not a rewarding endeavor. And the time spent on gambling,

particularly if you're addicted to it, you know, you don't get that time back. And that's one of the things that everyone who have known who has been addicted to gambling has lamented more than money that they've lost is, you know, the fact that they've, because of their addiction, that they have have lost the time, they've not been, they've not been present. And I think that you here now, you're very present. You're very present in what you're doing. And obviously, you've developed this podcast and you've obviously achieved a lot. And that's because of your focus. And what gambling does is it strips you with that. And it's a very different type of, you're immersed in it in a very different way to work. And I say that as someone who is equally as obsessed with my work.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The reason I'm asking this question, it came out, very muddled and that's because you're the first person we've really spoken about this so i haven't thought these arguments through very much but i guess what i'm saying is i there's a part of me that sort of cringes a little bit when when we talk about personal responsibility and we're like no no it's it's the industry that needs to because to me at the end of the day there will always be something that you as an individual can be addicted to exploited by et cetera and until we all start to go well what can i do about this there's always going to be something out there. And if it's, okay, maybe you can regulate gambling. People will

get addicted to other things that exist out there, computer games, porn, drugs, whatever. So that was the reason I'm asking the question. I feel like, I do feel like there's more as an individual that you can do. And I think, forgive me for saying this, on the left, particularly, and I'm someone who has views from all over the political spectrum, there's not enough of you need to take responsibility for yourself and there's too much of the system is to blame. And I'm hearing a little bit of that and hence the sort of the question. Do you see what I'm saying? I think that there is always a role for personal responsibility. Of course there is. And people who are addicted to gambling might be listening to this or watching this, you know, hearing me

say, well, the industry is not properly regulated and, you know, the harm that they've experienced might have been reduced by better regulation is not going to help them in this particular moment. What might help them is reaching out to the National Gambling Helpline, to the NHS clinics for problem gambling, to GAMBAN, to GAMBAN, which is blocking software I co-founded, if you don't mind

we're plugging it, GAMBAN.com. That might help them in that moment, and yes, they do have to take responsibility for their recovery. No one is going to do that for them. But I think if we're going to try to reduce gambling addiction, I'm not talking about all addictions,

but gambling addiction and gambling harm and the harm that it causes, then there are, I believe, things we can do in terms of regulation. And that's not me saying there's no role for individual responsibility or blaming it all on the industry. I'm just sort of saying, what are the things, practical things we can do? And I believe that these are the things we can do. You know, I'm a big football fan. I was going to say it like you are, but you're an Arsenal fan,

so you don't really like football. Sorry, I'll get that digging. immediately. But I tend to be quite libertarian. I think over lockdown, I've become even more libertarian with these demented policies that have been brought in. But I watch the football. Thanks for keeping in neutral there, man. It's what we do here. But I watch the football, and I'm watching West Ham. And then during the interval, I just get bombarded with gambling advert after gambling advert, after gambling advert. And being someone who used to teach and teach kids of 10 and 11, and also in secondary school, kids love football, particularly boys.

Aren't we just indoctrinating them when they're seeing their favorite football team sponsored by gambling adverts, when they're watching the football and it's gambling advert after gambling advert, Ray Winston coming out? Isn't this quite the word immoral? Big fan of your work, Rick. Yeah, yeah. Not immoral, but I do believe that it's almost indoctrinating them, isn't it? Yeah, there's a conditioning element to it.

And there was research in Australia that found that kids as young as six who had quite significant recollection of gambling brands and how to place a bet and what odds meant. Lots of children growing up now. There's other research that shows that they think that placing a bet

is part of supporting a team. So yes, we're storing up, I think, some problems or challenges for the future with children growing up in this environment because it's the first generation to do so. So yeah, I think that is an issue. I mean, I think it's more of an issue given how the industry is currently constituted.

Because you think, well, what's the problem with kids growing up with being bombarded with gambling apps and all that sort of stuff? And the problem is that when they turn 18 and they are able to download these apps and deposit money, is that they are at their most vulnerable point, particularly young men. More young men are addicted to gambling between the ages of 18 to 24 than any other demographics.

So it's that. It's the fact that the industry is constituted in such a way that wants the, it needs people to get addicted and you have a very vulnerable demographic who has a right of passage almost in the same way that perhaps when we turned 18 we went to, well, to the pub and had our first legal pint. They're downloading all the gambling apps. So I mean, that's not something that I even experienced. I was gambling on the machines. Obviously I was already addicted by 18, but I didn't have a smartphone that didn't exist then. So like, yeah, it's, it's just, it's difficult to know what the impact's going to be.

but the signs are that it's having quite a significant negative impact. And the lockdown kind of helped either. That must have seen problem gambling going through the roof because people sat at home all day, you know, access to these apps. I mean, that must have seen profits spike for the gambling companies.

Yeah, it did. They had record profits during lockdowns and like, for example, online slots increased by 30% during the first lockdown. So substantial increases. and profits increased despite the cancellation of sports fixtures in lockdown one. So just shows the shift to the more kind of addictive products. Yeah, I mean, it did have a profound effect.

And it's accelerated the switch from venue-based gambling to online gambling, which is why I think the government's review, which is ongoing at the moment, and we're expecting hopefully the white paper to be published in April. It's why it's kind of so important that the focus on online gambling regularly. I'm curious because now the gambling culture exists in Russia, not nearly in the same way. But when I was growing up in the Soviet Union, it wasn't really a thing that people did. But in this country, as an outsider, I can see it's a huge part of the culture. Right.

You go to the game, you have a little cheeky bet. You go to the races, you have a bet. Like, it's part of, it's been around, I'm guessing, for centuries. Do you have any insight as to why that is, why this? culture particularly has that embedded in it so strongly? You mean like the link between sporting events? But just a bet in general is something that is not the same in other countries. Yeah, it's interesting.

I don't know what the origins are, but yeah, it is definitely something that's, it's always been part of the experience, the match day experience, you know, or obviously guys at racing wouldn't, racing and betting coexist. You couldn't have one without the other. So it's always been a part of our culture It's always been a part of that experience But I'm not saying that that shouldn't be the case You just want to regulate it

That's it and you know it's it I think it's there's a spectrum of prohibition Which is obviously I'm not in favour of Promotion and liberalisation And tolerating something And you know returning to this principle of unstimulation demand. It's saying that if people want to do it, they're going to do it. They should do it in a regulated and safe environment. But should we be encouraging it or promoting it to the extent that

we are? I'm not saying that necessarily that shouldn't be permitted, you know, at race tracks or whatever. But there's just a conversation, I think a grown-up conversation to be had about where it sits between these two, between like unstimulated demand and promotion. And yeah, I mean, reformers, gambling reformers like me, Consturg, often caricatured in some ways like prohibitionist because we want to have more regulation. And I think that that kind of is unhelpful because I think really that that's where the debate is being had. And that's thankfully the debate the government's kind of willing to have as well. Well, we really appreciate you coming on.

Thank you so much for that. It's been a great chat. Tell everybody where they can go if they've got an issue with gambling, if they want to support the work that you are doing, etc. Yeah, great. with gambling go to talkbandstop.com and there's lots of information on there and free advice and support and you can get gamban for free through talk bandstop.com and if you're interested in the gambling reform work that I'm doing then cleanupgambling.com and there's stuff on there about what we're campaigning for and there's a template letter to MPs and all that sort of stuff so if you want to

get involved that'd be great and yeah by all means get in touch I'm happy to hear from anyone. All right. Fantastic. Thank you. much. Guys, thank you so much for watching and listening. We're going to ask Matt a couple of very special questions from you for our locals only. But in the meantime, we will see you very soon with another brilliant episode like this one or Raw Show. All of them go out at 7pm UK time. And for those of you who like your trigonometry on the go, it's also available as a podcast. Take care and see you soon, guys. People on the left are like, why you still remember the load party? Why would you vote for the

party? The reason I would vote for it is to destroy it. Thank you.