TRIGGERnometry - “Gender Is Not a Social Construct” - Debra Soh

Episode Date: August 16, 2020

Debra Soh is a former academic sex researcher, neuroscientist and the author of The End of Gender: Debunking the Myths about Sex and Identity in Our Society. Support TRIGGERnometry: Paypal: https://bit.ly/2Tnz8yq https://www.subscribestar.com/trigger... https://www.patreon.com/triggerpod Find TRIGGERnometry on Social Media:  https://twitter.com/triggerpod https://www.facebook.com/triggerpod https://www.instagram.com/triggerpod About TRIGGERnometry:  Stand-up comedians Konstantin Kisin (@konstantinkisin) and Francis Foster (@failinghuman) make sense of politics, economics, free speech, AI, drug policy and WW3 with the help of presidential advisors, renowned economists, award-winning journalists, controversial writers, leading scientists and notorious comedians. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hello and welcome to Trigonometry. I'm Francis Foster. I'm Constantine Kissen. And this is the show for you. If you want honest conversations with fascinating people. And a fascinating guest we have for you today. She is a former academic sex researcher, neuroscientist, and she is the author of the upcoming book, The End of Gender. Dr. Debroseau, welcome to Trigonometry. Hi, guys. Thank you for having me. Oh, it's an absolute pleasure. We loved reading the book. Really fantastic. fascinating stuff, which will get into an amendment. But for anyone who doesn't know who you are,

just tell everybody, who are you, how are you where you are? What is the journey that brings you here talking to us through this weird medium? So I am a science journalist. I write primarily about the science of gender and sex, human sexuality. I read about the politicization of science and also academic censorship. I can talk a bit about how I left academia and ended up in journalism. So during the last few years of my PhD, my PhD, my PhD is. is in sexual neuroscience research. And I had noticed that the climate and academia had changed. So I noticed there were more and more topics that you couldn't really speak about.

Researchers didn't want to touch because they were growing increasingly controversial and they didn't want to deal with the public backlash. One issue in particular had to do with transitioning in young children with gender dysphoria. So at that time, pretty much every single mainstream news piece would say that if you have a young child with gender dysphoria, the best way forward for them would be to transition. So that would usually include, you know, getting a different haircut, taking on a different name, identifying as the opposite sex. Every news piece was saying this is really great for these kids. The parents would say that the child is doing so much better after. But from a scientific perspective, all of the research

available shows that most of these kids who feel gender dysphoria, the vast majority of them, when they reach puberty, they will outgrow those feelings. They're more likely to grow up to be gay in adulthood. And so I felt it was important to say something about this. I wrote an op-ed, and I waited about six months to publish it because I knew that there would be a lot of backlash. I wasn't sure if it was going to be the right decision. I asked a number of my colleagues and mentors, and they were very supportive of me. I remember one conversation in particular with one mentor, and I asked him, should I wait until I have tenure? So at that time, I had planned to stay in academia. I had a whole plan in terms of the research I wanted to be doing. And he told me

tenure would not protect me. So that was that sealed my decision and I decided to have the op-ed published and then since then I've self-exiled from academia and I work as a journalist. And now I'm here speaking with you. You are. Yeah. How far you've fallen. But listen, before we get into the subject matter itself, I actually will just responding to what you've just said. I mean, tenure is the idea just for people like us, you're not into the academic world. the idea that you have a job for life. Yeah, it's protections because the point of being an academic, especially a scientist, is that you should be able to pursue novel research questions and not be afraid of what you're going to find.

So tenure essentially protects you that no matter what you find. I mean, most researchers are going to be responsible. It's not like it's going to be a free-for-all and they're going to go digging for, you know, terrible things. But it is, you need to be able to have that protection if you're going to do your job properly as an academic. And so definitely now, I would say even in 2020, it's so much worse now. There's no such thing as protection. Well, this is what I want to get into. The institution of tenure was designed specifically for this purpose to allow scientists to research things that may not be popular in the moment so that they can't be punished for discovering the wrong thing, let's say.

What did that meant to mean when they said tenure will not protect you? Like tenure is supposed to protect you. Why wouldn't it protect you? Well, especially within sex research, there's a very long and ugly history between sex researchers and transgender activists, where if an expert says something that upsets activist groups, they will go after the researcher and really try to destroy that person, not only that person's professional reputation, but their personal reputation and their life. And there was one case of one sex researcher, Michael Bailey, who is a professor of psychology at Northwestern University. he published a book in, I believe it was 2003, that really upset trans activists. And they went after him. And in my book, I talk about all the things that they did to him, which were really terrible and unethical.

And so after that happened, everyone in sex research said, you know, this is not something I want to go through. I don't, it's just not worth it. So everyone just stays quiet about these issues now. And so with that op-a, op-ed, they were saying to me, and I knew, too, you know, if you say anything that ups, that's activists and particularly transgender activists, it's going to not be very nice for you. And why is it that people just don't stand up to these people? Isn't that what you meant to do with bullies? Just stand up to them and say to them that that's unacceptable? You would think so. And I think part of what it is is academics are so busy with their research

and their teaching, they've got administrative duties. They're pushed basically to their boundaries in terms of what they're capable of as human beings and they're exhausted all the time. So the last thing you want to do is incite a mob and have to go on social media and fight with them. So I think that's part of it. And I think also activists are really empowered by journalists and, and I think the public to some degree because people feel they're on the quote unquote right side of history by defending them. So it really is an uphill battle. And after you see a number of your colleagues, everyone in sex research who has spoken up about this gets, you know, smeared, gets a attacked, gets mobbed on social media. And so I think it has to be, you have to have a very

specific personality to want to do that. And I'm sure you guys have that personality, but I think not everybody does. So that's how we got to where we are. And Deborah, why, I still don't understand why is it so toxic? I mean, 20 years ago, that's a woman, that's a man. We all agreed on it. And then we went on with our lines. Why is it suddenly everybody kicking off on the internet about it. I think part of it, and I should emphasize, so I'm critical of transitioning in children. I do support transitioning in adults. I do think transitioning can help some people. And so especially for adults, it's their business. I don't think anyone should be telling them what they can and can't do with their bodies. But I think part of this response, especially in the current age, is due to seeing

what happened with the gay rights movement. Now, I'm a huge supporter of gay rights, you know, a group in the gay community. And I think many people look back on that period of homophobia. And homophobia, we still exist today in society, but I do think it's gotten better to some degree. I think people look back on that and they say, okay, we made so many mistakes in that way. So now going forward, when it comes to how people identify or anything that has to do with gender or sexuality, we're going to fully support that. And I think it's gone so far on the opposite direction now that anyone like myself who criticizes that even when they're coming from a scientific perspective gets shouted down and told that they're hateful and that they're bigoted and that they're transphobic

Okay, and look, there's some things, Deborah, that I'm going to ask to clarify, because like I said before, I was understanding this was a man, this is a woman, now I'm very confused, okay? What does the term gender is a, what is the difference between sex and gender, number one? So, biological sex is determined by gametes. So these are mature reproductive cells. So you produce sperm or you produce eggs. The vast majority of people, 99% of us, are determined by gametes.

gender is our biological sex. So gender identity has to do with how you feel, whether you feel masculine or feminine. Gender expression is related to that in terms of how you express your gender identity. So whether you, you know, are gender conforming, say gender non-conforming. As a man, you typically will be masculine in the way you dress and the way you carry yourself and similarly, someone who's female is going to be feminine. And with regard to gender dysphoria, so gender dysphoria is feeling as though a person identifies more as the opposite sex than their birth sex. Okay. Now, where does the term gender as a social construct come in? Because this is a term that keeps being bandied about. What does that actually mean? And do you agree with it? I don't agree with it because it's not

true. And people will say that's very problematic, Deborah. You think the truth is important. Wow. Yeah, we're going to cancel for like the 10th time this week. So what was I saying? So gender is not a social construct is very much based in biology. And even for people who are transgender, there's a biological element to why they feel the way that they do. So when people say gender is a social construct, it means that gender roles are imposed by society. So people learn their gender, they're socialized to be masculine or feminine. And usually tied into that is the idea that there are no biologically based sex differences between men and women in the brain or in relation to say occupational interest. anything across the board. So if your audience remembers the Google memo that happened in 2017,

I wrote a column for the Globe and Mail defending James DeMore. And that column got picked up quite a bit. And people were very upset at me. But I feel it's, again, important to be forthright about these things. The weird thing is, though, gender, the whole gender is a social construct. This is reported now in mainstream news and it's repeated adenosium as though it's true. Like, there's no, there's no, people don't back it up. They don't qualify it. They simply just say, we know gender is a social construct and they get on to saying whatever they were saying. And I'm thinking, but that's not true. So it's, it's really crazy to me to see how this science denial is, is just basically accepted at face value. Well, isn't there a Baron Cohen study, which shows that day old babies, male and female babies are attracted to different things, male babies are attracted to objects and female. baby more attracted to objects, female babies are more attracted to anthropomorphic type dolls and things like. Isn't that something just like that obvious? So even babies are problematic.

Absolutely, mate. Well, yeah, because his research, the urban studies, they will take newborn babies and they will find that the females, the girls, will prefer looking at faces and the boys will prefer looking at mobiles or mechanical objects. And so what then people who support the argument that gender is a social construct, they will say, well, these children have already been born for so long, and they've managed to learn gender stereotypes in the time. I know, I'm looking at your face. My face isn't being shown to the audience, but I'll make it so that it's visible, their newborn. When did they, when did they imbibe these gender stereotypes in the womb? Well, this is what I say, because there's research to show that even in the womb,

before the brain is finished developing, there are differences between male and female fetuses. So unless someone wants to argue that a child is capable of learning gender stereotypes before they're born, which I would honestly not be surprised if someone were to argue that now because that's how far this conversation has gone. But I do understand. You know, and I think since writing that column in 2017, I understand why people find sex differences, especially when it comes to any biologically based ones, why they find it so threatening. And, you know, mostly women, I think some men find it threatening too because if you are in favor of gender equality, there's this message that men and women have to be the same. And if there are any differences, this is due to sexism, and we have to fix that. And I think it's totally fine to acknowledge that men and women are different,

but that doesn't mean one is better than the other. And as long as everyone is content with what they're doing in life, if they don't feel limited, then that's really what matters. And why not, do you mind if I just ask you? Yeah, yeah, go, go. I don't know if you would have seen our interview with Posey Parker. I did. You did.

Do you remember me having a bit of a disagreement with her, or rather me trying to put the counterpoint, I suppose, about the brain? So can you clarify that for us? Is there such a thing as a male brain and a female brain? on average there are differences between what you would find typically in men and typically in women so that doesn't say anything about any individual person so that's one important point and that's not to say there's not a lot of overlap between the two as well but statistically speaking if you look on average at a group of male versus female brains there will be some differences so it's not accurate to say that that their you know brains are identical or all right so let me just take that to its logical conclusion which is what i tried to do with her which is if there is if there is is a difference on average between male brains and female brains, would it not be therefore credible to argue that somebody can be born in a female body with a male brain? And so that, yeah, that is the common understanding of when people say that they are transgender. So with the research that's available with regard to brain imaging and trans people, it does show that for say someone who is a trans woman, her brain is slightly feminized. So she was born male, identifies as female, and her brain is slightly in the direction of the sex she identifies as.

And similarly, for trans men. So trans men were born, female identifies male, and their brains are shifted in the direction, again, of the sex they identify as. But the thing is with these studies, they are conflated with, or confounded with sexual orientation, because everyone who takes part in these studies are also attracted to people who share their birth sex. So in sexology, which is the scientific study of sex and gender, which is my former discipline, when you talk about sexual orientation in relation to people who are transgender, it's in relation to their birth sex. So for a trans woman who is, again, born male, identifies as female. If she's attracted to men, she's considered gay because she is attracted to people who share her birth sex. And so similarly for trans men, if they are attracted to women, then that's considered.

considered gay because attracted again to people who share their birth sex. So all this, all of this is to say that in the brain, there's a, there have been shown to be differences associated with sexual orientation. So when we look at the brains of people who are transgender versus people who are not transgender with these studies, we don't know if those brain differences we're seeing are due to them feeling transgender or feeling gender diswork or due to the fact that they're attracted to people who share their birth sex. And there was one study, I believe it was last year, that got a lot of attention. media attention because it was showing in children with gender dysphoria that their brains are similarly again shifted in the direction of the sex they identify as this shows that these children

really are the other sex and that we should support early transitioning but again we don't the sexual orientation of those kids was not reported and so we you can't make that assumption and deborra you are quite critical in the book about allowing children to transition now to me this seems as a former teacher, this seems fairly common sense. But could you explain to people, why is it that we shouldn't be allowing children to transition, especially at a pre-pubescent age? As well, as I mentioned a little bit earlier in the interview, the vast majority of these kids who feel that they were born in the wrong body, when they reach puberty, they're going to outgrow those feelings of gender dysphoria, and they're more likely to identify as gay in

adulthood. And so it doesn't make sense for them to transition at a young age. age before this point because it would be completely unnecessary. And research has shown that children who, even if they socially transition, because critics will say, well, social transition is nothing. All you do is you give them a different name and they can easily change their mind. But social transitioning is associated with persistence of gender dysphoria. So children who do take on a name of the sex that they identify as and are treated as though they are the opposite sex are more likely to go on then to seek other interventions in terms of medically. And it's difficult, I think, too, for kids to come back from that. I mean, I think people really underestimate how difficult it can be

for a child to say, you know, I thought I was the opposite sex, but now I'm not. And I've talked to detransitioners about this. We can talk about that too, who will say that it's, it can be very embarrassing to get everyone in your life to call you, you know, the opposite sex and in a new name and say that you're sure about this and then say actually no I wasn't sure about it. I'm actually curious, but when you say that for instance about you feel as a teacher, that's obvious, why is that? Because the feeling I get from a lot of people is that, well, of course, we would help them transition. Why wouldn't we? I mean, that's actually what I used to think. I used to think, of course, put them on these drugs to help them.

Well, no, the reason I thought is because I know children and a child is not capable of making those decisions at such a young age. Well, you would know far better than me, but a child is not able to, I think it comes at the age of 14, 15, well, but as certainly as a 10, 11 year old, they're not able to understand consequences. A lot of the time you see teachers telling off a child and saying, well, what do you think would happen when you did eggs and the kid shrugs its shoulders? Because it doesn't understand consequences. So essentially, you're asking a child to make a life-changing decision before they understand that concept. To me, it seemed ludicrous, but then maybe I'm just problematic. Look, I spend a lot of time telling you what's wrong with the

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And parents, I think part of it is parents are seeing all of this in, you know, news coverage and they're talking to their parents and they, some of them I think genuinely think maybe that their child needs treatment. But I think some other parents are really excited about this because it means their child is special and that this might be, you know, some form of, I don't think the majority of parents feel this way, but I think there are some who, who really revel in that. And what is the rate of detransition with these kids? Is it quite a lot of them, a significant amount of them, or is it quite a low amount? So there was one study in Sweden that showed that 2% of people who underwent a change in terms of the sex marker on their government ID subsequently went and changed it back to their birth sex.

But that is in adults. And that study, the data collection, I believe, was done in 2011. So we don't have data in terms of young children. don't have data in terms of, especially this more recent spike in terms of rapid onset gender dysphoria, which we're seeing predominantly in young and adolescent girls. So I can talk about rapid onset gender dysphoria as well, but we just don't know at this point. So I see it being very, very unfortunate and ugly what's coming in a couple of years. Well, this is the point, and you talk about rapid onset gender dysphoria. It might be helpful for our audience if you define it, but

is if I give you my kind of lame and understanding is over the last few years, there's been a massive increase, like 4,000% or something crazy, in the number of young girls and young women who seem to decide to transition in clusters. In other words, it like happens at a school that a lot of the girls there suddenly all transition. Is that broadly speaking correct? Yeah, yeah, it is. So what will usually happen is one of these young women, And their close friend will come out as a trans boy.

And then the next thing you know, she comes home from school and tells her parents, I want to be a boy. And the parents are really at a loss because if you take a child to a gender clinic, they have to affirm that child. So in terms of the prevalence, so Lisa Lippman did a study in 2018 about this. And she found that among friend groups, 40% of these girls would have at least half of their friend group identifying as transgender, which is a lot. And this is 70 times what you would normally find in the general population in terms of statistical prevalence of adults who identifies transgender.

And why are girls more likely now? Because it used to be that it was mainly males that would transition, effeminate males, let's say, not saying that in a judgmental way, just in a kind of descriptive way. They would transition. They were much more likely to transition than women. Now that seems to have been completely changed in such a short period of time. Why do you think it is that girls are doing this? I think for many of them, they're experiencing discomfort in their bodies, which is very normal. That's a normal part of growing up, reaching puberty and adolescents. Everyone feels awkward and uncomfortable. But instead, now they're being told on social media and everywhere, basically, that if you are uncomfortable with your sex, that you must be the opposite sex.

So if you are a woman who doesn't like having her period or you don't like male, attention potentially, that that means you should be a man. And no one is saying to them, because it's considered transphobic to say so, to say it's okay to feel different as a young woman. And especially for a lot of them, they have other mental health conditions like autism. A lot of them have anxiety. They have eating disorders. They're self-harming. And this is a way for them to cope with the way they're feeling. And I think, too, you know, I'm very critical of a lot of feminist dogma, but I do think in some ways society can still be sexist. And for these young women, it's an easy way to avoid sexism or homophobia also if they're

lesbian. A lot of these young women are lesbian. And so to them, it's easier to be a man than to be a lesbian woman. And do you think part of the problem as well, again, going back to my teaching experience, I saw social media come in, particularly Instagram, particularly the pressure it puts on young girls to look a certain way their bodies to be a certain shape or whatever else. and it's just a very easy way just to go, I want no part of this,

I'm going to be completely different, and now I'm going to be, I'm not going to have to abide by those rules. Yeah, I would agree with that. And I think also pornography, from what I've been told by speaking with these young women who have detransitioned, they will be exposed to porn at a very young age.

You know, that's just how it is everyone on the phone now. It's, you know, very easy to get access. And they'll say, I don't, they think that that's what sex, real life sex is going to be. like. They don't realize that pornography is entertainment and this is really the peak moment of sex between two people or however many people. So, you know, they think, I don't want that. I don't want to be objectified like that. They don't want to be objectified by society, understandably so. And so again, this is a way to just avoid the whole thing.

You know, it sounds so tragic what you're describing because, you know, you're saying, what you're basically saying is these young women are already vulnerable. And we've created a structure for them that affirms choices that don't actually match who they are, but at every step of the way, the adults are going, oh, yeah, yeah, this is the right way for you to go. Now, if you are, right, and I suspect that you are, then that wave of detransitioners that you're talking about is coming. And I mean, that's going to be even worse, because there's going to be thousands of people who've gone through a very invasive process. process in many cases, being, I mean, just horrified of what they've done to themselves

and what the adults around them allowed them to do. Is that, I mean, is that coming? Oh, yeah. Yeah. It's, I mean, it's already partially here. I would say over in the UK, I think you guys are seeing it, the start of it, before North America, people are still very much in denial about it. Because what you will hear, when, if you talk about detransitioners, D-transitioners are supposedly a quote-unquote myth. And then it's statistically so rare. It never happens. Those people were never really trans.

Those people were never really gender dysphoric. And that's not true. And, you know, I also criticize in the book the non-binary movement because I think this is similar in that. So before, it would very much be if someone wants, if it's uncomfortable with their birth sex, they will identify as transgender. Now there's also non-binary, which with that community comes. for many people having a double mastectomy.

So again, I have no issue. People want to try on different genders or identities. I think that's normal as part of the development. Developmental process. But when you start getting involved with surgery and when we're not actually talking about what this is really about, that's my issue. I think it's one thing if we could have these conversations

and these individuals were saying, I still think this is the right thing for me, then I would feel a bit more comfortable. But you can't have that conversation. I think people are going to be very upset by what I say in the book because these are things you're not supposed to say, but I think they need to be said. And do you think part of the problem as well is that, you know, these people, these children are identifying as trans without realizing that if you're a trans person, you're essentially going to become medicalized for the rest of your life. Yeah. And at that age, like you're saying, they're not fully developed cognitively in terms of their emotional maturity.

I don't think they're necessarily thinking that far ahead. and this is why I'm appalled at the adults. Why are parents and medical professionals not seeing this for what it is? But I think they similarly have been cowed either. They're afraid of being called transphobic. In some cases, you can lose your license. We actually have a law in Canada that's trying to be passed right now to actually send someone to prison if they conduct so-called conversion therapy, which conversion therapy for sexual orientation is not acceptable.

I don't support that at all because it does not work. It's not ethical. Conversion therapy for gender identity does not exist. If you have a clinician who sits down with a child and wants to understand what else is going on in their life that may lead them to feeling gender dysphoric, that's considered conversion therapy now, where gender identity and children is more flexible with age. So a child, again, who says there are the opposite sex can grow to feel comfortable in their birth sex with age. And I don't think it should be considered transphobic to say that. But now mental health professionals cannot have these conversations. They cannot do a proper assessment with these children.

children. So they really just have to allow them anyone to, anyone who wants to transition is basically the complete opposite of medical gatekeeping now. So anyone who is against this, they don't work with these patients anymore. So what do you do as a parent? So for instance, a friend of mine, her daughter at the age of 11 years old, told her that she wanted to transition. And she didn't say if she said, when I transition. What does a parent do if all the authorities, all the medical professionals seem to be pushing this kid down one particular path, which is going to change her body and mutilate it forever. I think the number one thing for parents,

every parent that I've spoken to has said that taking a child to a gender clinic actually makes things worse because it feeds into, they don't challenge the child, right? So then it becomes an issue of the child is then turned against the parent. now these kids are being encouraged to if your parents or people in your life your family don't support you cut them off so that can be very very devastating for the parents i would say just love your kid i have some suggestions i interviewed one of my colleagues uh dr susan bradley who is a world expert in autism and gender dysphoria and so she had some really good suggestions in terms of what to do and help to keep the conversation going with your child and and i think just one thing i would say is

try to limit the exposure your child has to social media, which is, I guess, something to start at a younger age, just to try and keep them off those platforms as much as possible, because that's really where this ideology starts. And it's really strong because kids, you know, they are very malleable. And when they're exposed to this and they think, I feel different. And this is the solution to the way I feel. I think it can be really an addictive thing to grab onto. And there is a link as well between all. autism and children that transition. Has that been fully explored or is that just something that we're noticing?

No, it's very, very common. And even in that study on rapid onset, gender dysphoria, I can't remember the exact number, the percentage, but there was definitely a correlation there. So that's the other thing because, you know, I think people with autism, again, deserve respect and love. And we should be able to say, you know, if this is what is leading you to feel a certain way, because for some people who are with autism,

they are very, they fixate on things. So they'll go through periods of being really, really into, especially children. They'll go through periods of being really into one thing, like a toy, and then they'll be into something else and something else. And so gender could be one of those topics that they latch onto and they're really into for a while, but eventually it will pass. Not to say that's the case for all of them, because there are some kids, right, who do end up persisting.

But I think in today's climate, it's really difficult for us to be able to tease apart who's going to legitimately persist and who's going to desist or not feel that way anymore, because, again, we're not talking about that. We're not talking about any other potential explanations for the way someone feels. So what would be a healthy way to treat people who present as having gender dysphoria as in a discomfort about their sex and gender being different? What would be a healthy way for us to deal with that? Well, I should state I'm not a clinician.

I don't do clinical work anymore. and I don't work with these children or this population. But I would say more broadly just from conversations I've had with my colleagues who do do this work, to just get a sense of what else is going on in the child's life. Are there other reasons for them feeling this way? For a lot of kids who say they are the opposite sex, because that's usually what critics of someone like me will say, well, these kids, you can tell the ones who are truly gendered dysphoric from the ones who are not

because they will say, I am the opposite sex. But a lot of kids will say that just because that's the only language. they have to communicate. They want to do things the opposite sex does. So if the parents says, you know, you're a little boy, you can't play with the easy bake oven. The little, the little boy will say, well, I am a girl as a way of saying, well, I should be able to do things that girls do. And I think also to look at the family dynamic and look at, you know, are there ways that the child maybe using their gender to maybe get attention from their parents or get praise, things like that. And I mean, I even feel bad saying these things now because I feel I don't want to make life more difficult for

this, you know, trans people. But again, no one is saying this stuff. And these are things that are just taken for, like, we know in the field that this is, these are important questions to be asking. It makes a lot of sense. Listen, let's talk about men and women a little bit. And it's a great frustration for Francis and I, because we get someone who's extremely intelligent, well-educated, who's written great stuff, who's done amazing research

like you or Jeffrey Miller or Dana Fleischman or evolutionary psych, Brett Weinstein, whatever. And we end up saying, Deborah, please tell us the difference between men and women. Like no one knows what it is. You know what I mean? But just let's talk about that because I think one of the crucial points you make in the book is it's not necessary for people to be treated equally. It's not necessary to pretend that we're the same. Right. So what is a man and what is a woman?

I'm a man, mate. Is that how you identify? identify now. It's actually a country for all evidence. Go ahead, Deborah. Well, I was going to say, I have a chapter in the book about sex and dating. And I think I'm actually amazed the number of young people who reach out to me who are experiencing mass confusion about how to approach romantic relationships, even casual sex. I mean, it just feels like, it sounds like an absolute jungle.

And so, you know, I write in that chapter about there are differences between men and women in terms of our sexual systems and this serves us very well from an evolutionary perspective. And we don't have to pretend that men and women are identical in the bedroom for us to have equal rights and to have respect in our relationships. And I'm just amazed at how much misinformation is out there. And I would think that most people like you're saying know these things, but I feel like there's so much indoctrination. I don't know if it's because this is what people are being taught in university. But I sense young people really have. have their loss. They're completely lost. So what are some of the key points that people should

just be reminded of? Well, I would say something like with casual sex. I think there's a pressure for young women to feel like they should have casual sex or they should enjoy it. And for the most part, I mean, almost consistently in the research, well, consistently in the research, men prefer casual sex more than women. And this would make sense from an evolutionary perspective because for men, the investment from sex is much smaller than for women. For women, there's a chance of pregnancy and then also raising the child. And evolutionary psychology, I think it's a really bad reputation because people think it's outdated. They say it's sexist.

I don't think that's the case. I think by denying these truth, it's actually making life more difficult for women and men because we're pretending that these things don't exist, but they very much exist. And do you think it's making us miserable, Deborah? particular women, when we talked to Megan Murphy, the feminist, she actually said that trying to, you know, having casual sex and, you know, trying to emulate these ideas is what made her fundamentally miserable because it denied a part of who she is. I think for young women, especially they feel like there's something, like when they tell

me, they feel like there's something wrong with them, that they are not more like they're, the first rate women, they're not more like their male partners than that. They don't enjoy casual sex. they are hoping for a relationship to come out of it. For a man, if you as a woman say to a man, you just want a purely sexual relationship, he's going to be like, fantastic. You know, and that's really all it is.

He's not thinking, how will she like me more, you know, and how can I get into a relationship with her after? For men, it's very much, if it's sex, it's just sex. And it's considered sexes to say that, but I don't think it should be. Well, I'm sorry, go. No, no, you got me. Yeah. And how have we come to this point?

I mean, before you would have had comedians in the 1950s, you know, doing routines about this. We'd all laugh and we'll go, yeah, it's funny because it's true. But now we've come to the point where this has become controversial. Is that not insane? I think it is a little bit, yeah. But I think it is coming from the same place of, you know, sexism exists. And women have previously had to deal with, you know, certain roadblocks that they should not

I've had to deal with. And so I think, again, it's society going way too far in the opposite direction and saying, okay, well, in every single way, women are the same as men. And especially when it comes to sex, I think female typical behavior is somehow seen as submissive. I don't think that it's necessarily the case. I think you can be very assertive as a woman and be very feminine. And that those two things, submissiveness or being dominated by a partner or being a pushover is not necessarily the same thing as being feminine. So I think there's a lot of nuance that just is not being discussed. I think it's just a lot easier with a lot of these issues to create blanket statements or to just be very, very adamant about one particular perspective and just shut down any other

opposing perspective because it could potentially be misused or misconstrued. What I find quite interesting about this whole worldview is that it's almost sexist in the way that it's designed in that it's saying like male quality is good, female quality is bad. And you're then forcing women, as what Megan Murphy was saying, you're forcing women to think that in order to be quote unquote good, you have to be like men. You have to think about sex and relationships like men. When really that's just, we're just not wired in the same way, are we?

Right. And that's the thing. I do think if we pretend, again, if we go back to gender being a social construct, if we say that, then that means that men and male sexuality remain the gold standard, and then female sexuality is basically an aberration of that. And so women are going to constantly be pressured to conform to being like men. And I think it should be perfectly fine for women to be respected as they are. And maybe I'm going to misquote you here,

but Debra, didn't you believe some of these ideas early on before doing the research and then realizing they are insane, as it were. Why did you believe these ideas? Because that's what I was told and I would, I, you know, before I started studying sexology, I wasn't exposed to any of the research data on the other side. So as a young woman who has always been very outspoken, I thought to be an independent, empowered women, these are the views that you hold. And then when I did start studying sexology in graduate school, I realized that none of those ideas are based in science. And I think it's actually quite harmful for young women to be told basically lies because that's not empowering.

I think you walk around with a false sense of empowerment, but you're not informed. So that's not helpful. And it's curious, you've said a couple of times now, just to remind everybody that sexism exists, right? Because sometimes it can feel like people are on your side of the argument or perhaps skipping over that. So what are the areas where you think sexism is still a powerful force in our society? I definitely would not say in STEM. I know that's one very common argument. People say that the lack of women in STEM is due to sexism, and I disagree with that.

In the book, I go through a number of studies that show that, you know, actually when it comes to hiring in terms of preference for male or female candidates, there's actually a bias in favor of female candidates for academic positions. I think that there... That's not just true. Sorry to interrupt. It's not just true of academia. I mean, whether it's, you know, comedy going on a panel show as a comedian, whether it's working at the BBC, you know, in the mainstream organizations.

I suspect if you were to look now, 30 years ago, unquestionable bias and fairer of men, you look now, I think it's either part or very much unfair. of women, right? But I am interested to think about, you know, you said several times that sexism is still an issue. And I think sometimes people who are trying to have a conversation on our side of the fence, if you like, if there is a side of the fence, you know, sometimes skip over things. So where do you think sexism is still an issue?

Well, I think on an individual level, it's not possible to go through every single person in society and to cleanse their mind of any negative. thoughts of women or anyone who believes that women are inferior in some way to completely eradicate that. So I think in that way, but I don't think it's at a systemic level. And I don't think it's in a way that's really seriously holding women back, certainly not in Western society. So there's a few assholes, basically, just still walking around. Right. And that's not, yeah, and that's not to say that those interactions aren't uncomfortable for somebody or upsetting for somebody. But I do think in the grand scheme of things, you can choose in life what you want to

focus on and what's going to motivate you or hold you back. And I, you know, I write in the book about some situations I experience with sexism, but I think if you stay focused as a woman and you just keep moving forward, then there's nothing that's going to stop you in that way. Agreed. And anyway, that's enough about Constantine. So let's move on. Right. I was going to ask you. I can't even argue back. It's my culture. It's my cancer. What can I do? Yeah, I'm problematic, mate, now. But, Debra, one thing that really came forward in your book, and I think that I found very interesting, is you made the point that we are having these incredibly complex, nuanced conversations. And a lot of people hosting these conversations are quite frankly

not qualified to do so. She's talking about me and you. But at least we don't pretend to be qualified. But do you think that, why do you think that's bad and do you actually think it's quite dangerous as well well when you say their hosts are not qualified in what way are they not qualified so like people commenting about sex and gender are not people from a scientific background they're people from the humanities and arts and there's somebody who's got a degree in the arts I can say I'm qualified for nothing but I would say even experts this is that this is what's so crazy right now is that I feel bad even using the word crazy because that's now supposed to be a problematic term but you know that even scientific experts, some of them have become ideological and that they will say things

like, you know, there are no biologically based differences in the brain between men and women. And you see the new research that's coming out saying these things. So it's really a frightening time because now the scientific papers themselves are compromised because scientists know it's one thing to say whatever loopy idea you have. But it's not until you publish that in a paper. And then you can point to that paper and say, oh yeah, in this. paper that we published, we showed this magically. So that's where we are right now.

But I don't see. Maybe I'm not being, how can, how, but surely science is science. It's fact, isn't it? If you are a good scientist, you will design your study in a way that it's not biased and that you will be open to whatever you find at the end. So I don't want to necessarily point fingers at people in terms of what they're doing. But definitely in the field when a paper comes out that says something like there are no biologically based sex differences in the brain,

if you look at all of the previous research, I mean, there's hundreds and hundreds of studies suggesting otherwise, and when most of the experts in the field, if not all who are not ideological, are saying this does not look right. And you go in and even so, say one study that was published showing there are no sex differences, when a different group of my colleagues analyzed the exact same data from the study,

they found that you could tell the difference between male and female brains at a rate much higher than chance. So, I mean, I think, again, I don't want to be pointing fingers, but you can, if you want to promote a particular agenda, even as a scientist, you can find a way to do that. Right. And what will happen to the way we have these conversations? Because one of the other things you talk about in the book

is essentially people who want to do authentic science, unbiased science. They know the punishment, as you said yourself. even tenure won't protect you. And then, of course, those people leave the field, and we've seen a lot of people leaving different academic branches because they recognize that they can't do the research that they want to do, because if they find the wrong thing, they're going to be punished for it. And will that not lead over time to essentially a replacement of true scientists with agenda-driven, ideologically driven science?

And then all of the stuff that you're saying is scientifically not true will become scientifically true. Right. That is what we're seeing right now. And especially when it comes to gender, if you look at, well, the research pretending to say children with gender dysphoria, I'm not really questioning what new studies are going to find because we know that we see what happens. If you try to question or challenge transgender, what narrative is.

put forward by trans activists. There was a study that was published last year that suggested that gender dysphoria may have something to do with sensory networks and that it may not necessarily be due to having the wrong brain sex in someone's body. So I think that's not necessarily the case for everybody, but I do think that paper was published for the purpose of sparking debate. That's why the journal published it. And then it ended up being put under review again. then it was eventually retracted because there was such an outcry over it because people were saying this could be misused to say that trans people should not transition. I think that's usually the key fear. And I understand that fear because, again, medical gatekeeping did exist and I don't think

trans people, I think they deserve support and care and to be able to access, you know, the interventions, adults should be. And so now no one's going to touch this subject. No good ethical researchers is going to touch a subject. So instead all of the research that's coming out is going to be activist led. And we've talked about the impact on trans people. And I think it's important that all of us, just like you have, emphasized that we want people who are gender dysphoric to get the support that they need. Absolutely. And for adults to be able to live their life as they choose. There's no, I don't think people have any issue with that. But there's also another population that feels very threatened by what's happening from the other end, which is,

women or cervix havers as the CNN today. Menstruis. Menstruis. Uterus havers. Uterus havers. Exactly. Well, there's two ejaculators. The question we'd like to ask is, you know, women feel very strongly about this issue,

as we've discovered over the time that we've been doing the show, Francis slapping his lips there. Yeah, yeah. Women do feel very strongly about this issue. do you have a particular view on that? Because, you know, it's become a big contentious issue. In fact, I would say almost all of the contentiousness comes from that,

women feeling like they're under attack by some of this. What's your take on that? I think with regard to, because I think the broader conversation is about our transgender women, the same as women who are born women, full stop? Because the implications of that are much different from, if we were to say trans men are the same as men, full stop. Because when it comes to women's spaces, women are arguably going to be affected more so if someone who is a trans woman is. And when I cite these criticisms, my issue is not with trans people.

It's because the policy then opens up the opportunity for individuals who are male, who are not transgender, for them to abuse the ability to access these spaces. And it comes back to biological differences. Men are bigger, stronger, blah, blah, blah. Right. And also, I mean, they are more likely to perpetuate sexual offenses. Not all men, of course, but that's just the reality of someone who has worked with sex offenders previously in research and clinically. So I think it's important to be able to talk about this issue depending on the particular context and the factors involved.

So bathrooms, prisons, sports, shelters, you know, I think right now people are taking a very much a sweet. being approached saying either if they're in favor of trans rights they say 100% trans women are women that's that's the end of it and you know to suggest otherwise is bigoted and then on the other side people are saying no trans women should are not the same as women and you know so I mean we can talk about maybe the specific context right well let's talk about it because how do you resolve that for example you know you take a kind of balanced sensible view of it should trans women have access to female only, bathrooms, prisons, sports. I mean, they're all slightly different, but, you know, just talk us through your view on those,

on those different contexts. I think my biggest point of contention would be prisons 100%. You cannot, I mean, we are seeing now with male sex offenders. So they will commit sexual offenses against female victims and they will be arrested. And then they will identify as female and they will have to be. not only recorded as female by the police, but then they will be potentially housed in a women's prison. And I just, it's just beyond me. I don't know. As anyone who works in forensics should know that that is not a good idea. So this is actually happening. I think, again, it's, it's very

possible that a prisoner may decide to come out as trans. Maybe they are truly gender dysphoric. And And so in which case, yeah, that should be taken into account. But I think, you know, a psychologist, when you are evaluating these populations, your job is to determine what is the likelihood of reoffending. That's the biggest thing, like level of risk that someone is going to recidivate. And it's almost like that's not being considered at all in these discussions. It's very much all about identity. And that's really, really not helpful.

And it's dangerous. Yeah, there's a very famous case in the UK with a person called Karen White, who's a male sex offender, I think a rapist actually, identified as a woman, got put in a women's prison and lo and behold went on to sexually abuse three or four women.

And you do start to think at that point, has society and the world taken leave of its senses? Yeah, yeah, that's the thing. What else can you say? You know, yeah. I imagine your take on trans women and female sports would be along similar lines and that there's a biological difference, hence they can't compete with each other? Would that be right? Right. I mean, I think, and I, again, I think, I feel,

it almost feels insensitive to say this because in some way it's saying that, again, pointing to the differences between trans women and women who are born women. And by saying that there are differences, sometimes it can feel as though you are telling them how they should identify who they really are. But I think it's important to be able to talk about these things, especially because they are scientific reality. Because in some cases, sports like mixed martial arts, which is one of my favorite sports,

if a trans woman is fighting in the women's division, there's a chance that that person can be very badly hurt or even killed. And I don't think it's fair to the female competitors to just tell them, well, you need to suck it up and work harder. Or you look at the cases of young women who are competing for scholarships. and you have trans girls competing with them and just basically obliterating them. It's not fair. And where do you stand?

And this is the most, well, those are, of course, contentious issues. The whole thing is contentious. But let's talk about women's bathrooms and women's safe spaces. Where do you stand on that? Do you think, like Posey does, that women's bathroom is a completely safe space and only women should be allowed in them, or do you have slightly more flexibility with your ideas? Bathrooms, myself personally, as a grown woman, I have less of an issue. I think, me personally, I'm fine if trans women want to use women's bathrooms.

However, I don't think it's fair that women, and especially girls, who are upset by this or who are concerned about this, I don't think it's fair to tell them that they are hateful just for having an opposing view. I think that they should be able to have to speak their perspective and that we should be able to have an open dialogue about this. Something like shelters, though, I am a little bit more critical because, you know, you're going to be sleeping next to a complete stranger potentially. And for a lot of the women who are in these shelters, they have a history of trauma, some of them have sexual trauma, some of them have issues with substance abuse. And it can be, you know, they will relive trauma by potentially being around someone who, especially, this person is preoperative, right, if it's a preoperative trans woman. So I think those factors

need to be taken into account and women's concerns need to be taken more seriously instead of simply dismissed. All right. Well, we're almost out of time. Before we ask our last question, and it's been a great interview and wonderful speaking with you, how do we, what, besides everybody getting your book at the end of gender and reading it, etc. How do we get out of this into some kind of healthy way of looking at all these issues? Because I don't think it's an issue that's going away. I think there will always be trans people and there will always be some kind of tension between the desire for them to have their rights respected and for other people in society whose rights

are affected by that. That will always continue. But how do we find a more healthy way of speaking about it and a healthy way of behaving about it? I think the main thing is that the vocal minority really needs to know that they are, sorry, not the vocal minority. The vocal majority needs to know that they are the majority. That's the thing because so many people reach out to me and tell me that a lot of these ideas don't make sense of them. I mean, it's really concerning the level to which we are being saturated in our culture with these nonsensical ideas like gender as a spectrum or that biological sex or is whatever you want it to be.

You can identify however you want and you choose it yourself, things like that. It's completely nonsensical. It's not scientific. and yet people sense that something is not right, but they're not sure how. So, yeah, in the book, I do talk about all the scientific literature that can help you fight back against that misinformation. But, yeah, I think just to know that, no, you're right, the way you feel you have a reason for feeling that way. And it's okay to say that. And it doesn't make you a bad person to say that.

Deborah, it's been a wonderful, wonderful interview. We've really, really enjoyed it. The question that we always finish, all our interviews with, is always the same. it's what's the one thing we're not talking about as a society and that we really should be? I would say the biggest thing for me when we take a step back would be that science denial, whether it's coming from the left or the right, is really not helpful. So my book is predominantly calling a left-leaning science denial. I would still call myself a liberal.

And funnily enough, the majority of sex researchers are liberal. But I think part of the reason why we've gotten to where we are is because we liberals don't, it's difficult to call it your own side because you almost feel like you don't know how or you question, especially as a sex researcher, interference from the right has predominantly been the issue that they face. So not to say that all rightly people have issue with sex research, but I think when it is your own side, it's just as important to call it out because it's just as harmful and it's going to lead to just as as much misinformation and bad things for society. And I can say to everybody calling out your own side, does end well.

Yes, that has been our experience, but we have got a new studio eventually. So having been kicked out of our last one for not being working up. Anyway, enough about us. It's a brilliant book, The End of Gender. Make sure you go together. We'll put the link in the bottom of the video. Dr. Deborah, so it's been absolutely pleasure speaking. We wish you all the best, and I'm sure we'll speak to you again very soon.

Thank you so much. Good luck to you guys too. Thank you very much, Deborah. and if you want to catch another show or a live stream, we are broadcasting Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday and Sunday. Episodes go out on Wednesday and Sunday, and everything is always at 7pm UK time. At 7pm UK time.

See you soon, guys.