TRIGGERnometry - Graham Linehan: "I Will Not Bow to Bullies"

Episode Date: May 13, 2020

Graham Linehan is a writer and director who has created or co-created some of our most beloved shows including Father Ted, Black Books and The IT Crowd. Support TRIGGERnometry: Paypal: https://bit.ly/2Tnz8yq https://www.subscribestar.com/trigger... https://www.patreon.com/triggerpod Find TRIGGERnometry on Social Media: https://twitter.com/triggerpod https://www.facebook.com/triggerpod https://www.instagram.com/triggerpod About TRIGGERnometry:  Stand-up comedians Konstantin Kisin (@konstantinkisin) and Francis Foster (@failinghuman) make sense of politics, economics, free speech, AI, drug policy and WW3 with the help of presidential advisors, renowned economists, award-winning journalists, controversial writers, leading scientists and notorious comedians. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This episode sponsored by IP Vanish. IP Vanish protects every device you own, your phone, your laptop, your smart TV. If it connects to the internet, it should be protected. IP Vanish encrypts your connection and masks your IP address, helping keep your browsing private at home and on public Wi-Fi. Stream with added privacy. Browse securely. Connect with confidence.

Right now, save 83% off the two-year plan. Get started today at IPVanish.com slash audio and take control of your privacy with IPVanish. Hello and welcome to Trigonometry. I'm Francis Foster. I'm Constantine Kisson. And this is a show for you. If you want honest conversations with fascinating people. Our brilliant guest today, I'm delighted to say, is a comedy writer behind some of the most beloved shows in history of television. Graham Linnon, welcome to Trigonometry. Thank you. Thank you very much for asking. It's a pleasure to have you on. I did mention, obviously, in the intro that you wrote Father Ted, Black Books,

the IT crowd, you were part of the team behind a whole bunch of other shows. But more recently, you've also become very controversial and problematic, which is one of the reasons we're extra delighted to have you on this. But before we get into that, we had a bunch of questions just about comedy for you as well. So it seems to me, Graham, that, and this is someone genuinely who's a massive fan of your work, that you're operating what could be seen as a golden age of comedy, you know, the 90s, the early noughties, where there was lots of money. And then it's money to be made and there I say people are a lot braver now. How do you think the comedy landscape has changed over those last 10 to 15 years? Have we become better, more progressive or have things

got a little bit worse, would you say? When you say more progressive, how do you mean? Do you mean are things improving? That's not what progressive means there, so I think it's what you're getting that. Yeah, yeah. Do you mean, sorry, but I've just, genuinely, do you mean the quality of comedy? Yes, I mean the quality of comedy. Do you think that we've improved, the content has improved, or do you think that we've regressed slightly? Do you think that, dare I say,

that people are less able to make certain jokes because they're deemed to be not accepted? Yeah, well, you know, that's, I mean, the most revealing thing to me that always happens is when someone like Dave Chappelle brings out a special and the headlines read things like Dave Chappelle launches attack on Michael Jackson victims, you know, this type of day. When, you know, you look at it and it's a set up for a joke. It's obviously the set up for a joke.

So you have a very odd situation at the moment where journalists who are kind of who are kind of, themselves up as cultural gatekeepers are pretending that for some reason, people like Dave Chappelle and Louis CK, I realize he's more problematic, but they're pretending that these people are serious when they're telling jokes. And they write them down in journalism pieces. Like I know Louis C.K. made a routine about those kids who were all shot. And David Hogg and people like that who then went on and became leaders of an anti-gun movement. He made a routine about them something. I think he said they were something like selfish, you know.

It's such an absurd thing to say immediately about people who've been the subject of gun attacks, you know, at their school. And yet it's reported in this most, it's reported. as if he's, I don't know, he's Trump or something. I don't know how to stop my WhatsApp messages getting through while we're this is the level of professional we expect on Trinomichry Graham. But actually, on your very point,

I wrote a piece about it, so I remember the details quite carefully, quite accurately, I think. He didn't actually joke about the people that had been shot. What he joked about is the fact that the people who weren't shot were then being held up in the media as these paragons

of virtue and truth on on the gun debate. And he was saying, the fact that you push some fat kid in front of you doesn't make you more interesting. Yeah, which is so obviously, you know,

said to produce a huge laugh from the audience, you know, and not serious in any way, you know? Of course. So there's a kind of a weird propaganda exercise going on where all these woe

morons are pretending that comedians are serious about their serial, you know? So, so I think, I can't, and also, an interesting thing happened to me during my cancellation, I've had one or two people, big names, meet me for lunch and very kindly. I mean, you know, they don't, they don't say anything publicly. Jonathan Ross did. Jonathan Ross has been an absolute star. but a few other people meet me privately and talk to me about it. And one guy met me and he said,

he said a comedian friend of his said, the joke that will destroy my career is already out there. And that's something that should scare all of us, because what it means is that, I don't know who said this. I think it was Richelieu or someone. You may know the quote I'm going for. He said something like, give me three letters by a person

and I shall destroy them. something like that, which means that, you know, you can dig into any correspondence and find stuff that will hang someone. So imagine you have a comedian's entire Twitter history, which existed before all these taboos became taboos and can be just used to, you know, used to destroy people. And I think also another thing that's happening are people like Owen Jones and, and, and, and, people like that are doing a similar thing. They're finding, something that happened to me

during all of this was the, what's her name, Linda Riley of Diva Mag, the lesbian magazine for men. Anthony Watson. As all lesbian magazines are, Graham. And Anthony Watson of G.L.

Triple A.D. I think it is. But they both do what they did. I mean, it's so obvious what they did. They ran a search on my Twitter timeline for words like cunt and faggot. You know, they found one cunt, which I said to Theresa May, which I've apologized for. I didn't say it to or I said it about her. And another one they found was a thing where I said, I'd love to program. This was when I was in the middle of Gamergate, which I'd love to program.

to talk to you about because I've got a lot of revised feelings about GamerGate. But during GamerGate when, you know, gamers were, some gamers were behaving in very kind of, you know, anti-gay or anti-messalistic ways, I said, I'd love to program a gay pride march through the middle of Karachi and Call of Duty, you know. And I did an impression in quotes of the gamers going, you know, going nuts and going faggot, faggut, shouting out. And they found this one, and they printed it up as an example of me using the word faggit, you know. So it's a, what it is, apart from being the censorious, anti-liberal and un-democratic thing, is, is it, it's a political lever, you know? I don't know if you, Benjamin Boyce points this out a lot, and it's basically they're using

the language of, you know, moral superiority or whatever you want to call it, to get ahead, you know, to get political positions, to win student places, you know, on the, you know, it's political, it's purely political. And if you master this language, then, you know, you can get ahead. It's so cynical. It's so cynical, you know. Imagine two gay people, right? the word fagging into search engine, trying to find some, some example of wrong thing, you know.

It's twisted. But anyway, sorry, you've got to stop me rambling. I will ramble if I'm... No, no, rambling is great. Rambling is what the podcast is all about. But also as well, but you look at commission comedy, and it would seem to me that the quality of comedy that has been commissioned has gone down. and do you think that when you look at, you know,

because you look back at Father Ted, there were some real instances there where the comedy was very much on the knuckle. Do you think that that would be allowed to be slipped past now or? Well, the thing is, I don't know, I mean, it's been a long time since I've kind of swum in the, in those waters.

I, my last, my last show, Motherland is slightly different. I'm not involved with Motherland anymore, but Count Arthur was my, attempt to write a family comedy because I kind of thought I kind of thought when you get them right they they go really big you know they can be really successful you know so I did my best and I think I didn't I think we got a couple of things wrong I think the location was wrong a bit too people didn't want to spend all their time in one of those plastic cafes you know but but so so I don't know about that kind

of near the local edgy comedy uh anymore I don't I'll give you a good example of something that I can't really see being made now is brass eye. I can't see brass eye getting anywhere. Because the, you know, I don't think it's so much a, I don't think it's so much that everyone's become more censorious. I think it's that there's a couple of generations that have grown up with the internet and find any kind of test of their views violent. They think that it's a violent act to question or hold their views up to, you know, ridicule or whatever it happens to be. They think that's literally violence.

And it's very hard to get things done. I would imagine it's very hard to circumnavigate all that stuff, you know. My sense also as well, just as an outside observer, is, I don't know, the balls on the commissioners and the producers seem to have shrunk over the decades because in the past, I think they would have been prepared to stand up for things that they believed in even if they knew it was going to attract controversy, whereas now it seems like, you know, if you are anticipating there's going to be a few complaints amplified by social media, then you'd rather not take that risk. Do you think that there's an element of truth in that as well?

Well, you know, I wouldn't like to be on the end. I mean, I've been on the end of it. No one wants to be on the end of a, of something like that. But on the other hand, people really, I mean, this goes not just for commissioners, but for businesses and universities and everyone. People have to realize how easy it is to set up a thing where hundreds of people are writing to you telling you that the person you've employed is a monster or whatever it is. And I'm, and it's really getting annoying the way these idiots back, down as soon as they're, you know, like, one, I get, there's certain people who regular, certain

people I see, uh, in my Twitter feed, there's socks for, for other people. And we know who they are. We know, you know, there's only, there's only one of the things that we've been trying to do throughout all this fight is trying to get these LGBT organizations to call out the bad actors in their midst, you know, you get someone like Stephanie Hayden, who's a fraudster, um, Amy Chaloner, who was, you know, whose father was an abuser, tortured a little girl, and then married a paedophile in America. You know, it's like these are people who should not be involved in safeguarding, should not be, as Amy Chaloner was, running an LGBT youth group for ages 14 plus or something.

These are dangerous people. Jonathan Yannib is another example. And they're dangerous people, and they're dangerous people. and they need to be called out. Now, someone like Yanif has hundreds of sock accounts, you know, and he has a program running that just automatically checks for his name so that he can then report them, you know? And this person got Megan Murphy, one of, you know, an important Canadian feminist,

kicked off Twitter forever, you know? Now, people have got to realize that they are being manipulated by sociopaths, you know? There's other people that, you know, the writers of Pink News, they're like demented, you know? Like there's one who's written a few pieces on me, Vic, what's her name, Vic, something. And she's just eaten up by rage, you know? And it's, you know, we've got to stop listening to these people. One of the things the internet did, and again, this, I've made a real journey. I've made a real journey over the last couple of years.

But one of these things, the internet, I used to be a bit of an internet utopian, to some degree. I kind of thought, I remember when music was being destroyed. I thought, oh, this is great. It means it'll make, it means indie bands will get bigger and there'll be more access to, and they'll be able to make their own money, they'll be able to skip the middle, the record companies,

the middleman, and they'll make so much money. It's just bullshit. They're all fucking starving. You know, and it was because capitalism was too robust, you know, and all these people just stopped. No, no, I'd, you know, if we can't make money, then the musicians will start. That was the deal, you know. And I used to think, and another thing that I thought was great was the fact that with Facebook and Twitter and all these things, I thought that we, this kind of hive mind, which is not, actually that sounds too, to,

too, like I'm saying, people would work in Loxton, which has happened, which is terrible. But I did think that the connectivity that we all had would lead to, I thought it would lead to breakthroughs in science. I thought it would lead it. I mean, when I say it, it sounds completely reasonable, doesn't it? Look, I spend a lot of time telling you what's wrong with the world, so let me tell you about something that's actually right. Sleep, specifically getting more of it, better quality. The kind where you wake up and feel like it, human being rather than someone who's been thrown down a staircase. Most mattresses are just layers of synthetic foam and crossed fingers. You're spending a third of your life on the thing and most

people have no idea what's actually in it. Avocado green mattress is different. Their mattresses are certified organic, built from natural materials designed to actually support your body properly rather than just hold you in one position until morning. The craftsmanship is real. These are mass-produced objects, someone has put thought into them. I'll be honest. I'm not the person who thinks carefully about where he sleeps. My dating history will tell you that. I'm the person who's been on the same mattress for eight years and called it fine. But the older I get, the more I notice that fine isn't actually fine. Your body tells you, if you're going to invest in anything for your home, your bed is the one that pays you back every single night. Avocado products are made, not manufactured,

and thoughtfully crafted with real materials to deliver lasting comfort and support. Go to avocado greenmatress.com slash trigger to check out their mattress and furniture sale. That's avocado green mattress.com slash trigger. Avocado green mattress.com slash trigger. I don't think you're wrong, actually, Graham. And I want to get into the story of how you've kind of evolved because you've gone through quite a journey. But I don't think you're wrong. I think it has had massive, massive benefits.

Oh, sure. But it's also had a lot of disadvantages. But since we've delved into your whole story. Just to finish my thought, just very quickly, I'll just say that what has happened that I think is very, very dangerous is that a bunch of sociopaths have injected themselves into the world brain.

And we are now repeating things that are insane. You know, it's just insane because these sociopaths are working the controls. No, I know what you mean. So let's dig into that, but let's start at the beginning, because I introduced you as the man behind some of the most beloved shows in the history of television. I don't think that's inaccurate. So you've got a great career. You're going along nicely.

You're working. You know, you respected, loved. Your work is loved. And then suddenly you go from that to being cautioned by the police for dead naming. I wasn't cautioned. You weren't cautioned? Sorry. You were spoken to by the police?

Yeah, that was Stephanie Hayden, who's very funny. Stephanie Hayden in court, they said, they pointed out that she was convicted for fraud. He was convicted for fraud. I'm not calling Stephanie Hayden, is she? No way. But he was convicted for fraud, and he said, oh, that was just for passing bad checks in Wales. Right. So, but you, you, you, got the police to call me.

Yeah. And got the police, they said, do you know Stephanie Hayden? And I thought they were calling because they caught him because he's, you know, he's a fraudster. And he ripped off this guy called Fat B, this bloke who's trying to open a restaurant in London. He ripped him off for something like 27,000 pounds. So I thought, great, the police had called me and I'm going to be able to put this guy behind bars. But no, they called me to stop, to leave him alone, you know. And this was, I had him blocked by this stage.

So basically what Hayden was doing was he was getting the police to call, Andy sued me on the same weekend. He goes how Hayden works is he likes to, he's done this to, he did this to a transsexual friend of mine in Norwich. He sues you, he calls police in the same weekend. He doesn't send a letter of intent or whatever it's called, the thing that says, if you take this down, I won't sue you. He does it all to maximize the stress that he puts people under.

And that's who the police. his coffee and that's what the guardian story is right so but what i want to get into before we get into old and nitty gritty yeah sorry it's you'll find i have certain hobby horses and once i don't know i get it because it's it's a very personal as someone who's been in the middle of a media store myself i understand all of that the little details piss you off and it's it's all there but what i want to understand is first and foremost what made you decide to go from beloved cultural figure to this guy on the the internet talking about women's rights and being attacked by trans activists. What was it that you were like, I can't stomach this anymore. I have to speak on this. I'm not sure that it was one single

thing. It was after a while, like once you recognize this, you realize that there is a real lockdown on information about this, you know, and I was in my Twitter bubble of liberal left-leaning people. And I would see things every so often that, like I remember one that said, you know, when I was thinking, why are so many people trans now? Everyone's, everyone's brother is trans, you know? Everyone, you know, and then I saw a thing that said, it said because more accepted now, more people are coming out as trans, you know. And I remember reading all this and thinking, oh, okay, maybe that's true, you know. But the more I kind of thought about it and the more crazy stuff that started coming out, I, I, I, I realized I was being gaslit, you know.

And then something happened. It was coming to the end of the Irish repeal, the eighth campaign, which me and my wife and I had participated in. And I think to pretty good effect, I think we made a video that was quite powerful, and it did a lot of good, you know. But the people who were running the repeal thing, in Ireland, included a bunch of people who, I'll give you an example of what they did.

They ran a thing, they had a blocker up called Repeal Shield. And Repeal Shield was supposedly to block MAGA types. But it also, without telling anyone, they also put feminists in there, you know. Feminists, do live Donald Trump. Big fans, big fans. Yeah. So, and at the same time, they got marriage equality, and they did that thing. I don't know if you saw the legal document that Dentons.

Dentons is this legal firm. This is amazing. Trans-activists wanted to pass something that said that kids didn't have to consult their parents or didn't have to get their parents' permission if they began transitioning, right? And they wanted to get that put into law. And a law firm called Dentons advised,

wrote this document where they said, look to Ireland. Ireland did great work passing gender ID on the back of more successful or more popular reforms like marriage equality you know. So that's what they did. They slipped it in and they

and another thing the Denton's document said is try and avoid the media, you know? I mean, as I've said before what kind of what kind of civil rights group avoids the media, you know? So all this stuff was piling

up and then I had cancer and I was in I was in I was I was I was I always have to include that because I think the morphine made me a lot braver than I should have been but I was on my hospital bed and and I got and I saw a thing that said you know now we've dealt with repeal this is an Irish person now we've dealt with repeal I want I wanted to tell that Graham linnon is a turf and they included a bunch of things I'd liked and so on. You know, the usual things that are just, no one could object to unless you're insane, you know, like trans people deserve respect and help,

but women deserve their rights to. That's it, you know? So I saw that I was being cancelled, and I kind of got a bit sick of it then, and I kind of thought, well, what am I saying that's wrong? And I examined it, and it wasn't anything. I wasn't saying anything wrong, you know? And I still stand by, I've never really said anything wrong by this stuff, you know?

I can back up all my opinions, you know? But, Graham, wasn't there a part of you? I mean, you clearly feel strongly about this and that's fine. But wasn't there a self-preservation gene? That was like, hang on, mate, if you tweet this, you're going to get into some serious problems because we've all written a tweet and then looked at it and thought, no, better delete that. Do you not have that?

well no because I wasn't saying anything wrong I was saying I was and also I was standing up for reality I mean like I saw did you see the thing I tweeted yesterday the guy you've got thanked by the board of educators no I didn't oh yeah okay here it is this is just extraordinary I'll send it to you and you know I've sent this to various people who I hate

like you know Josie and Owen Jones and so on. And they never answer because there's no answer to it, you know? And it's this guy. So anyway, that's a man, right? That is a man, okay? Please put me saying that this is a man over the shot of the man, please. That's the man.

And if we are to make comedy, there has to be a base of reality. there has to be. And any form of writing, you have to have a base of reality. So if something like this is happening, you have two choices. You can adapt to the new reality or you can fight against it. And I just chose to fight against it because comedy is impossible if that's a woman. Impossible. You know? And you talk about adapting to reality. One of the things I wanted to raise with you is the Count Dankula case. Okay. Because you've gone through quite an evolution on many issues,

that being a good example where, you know, we've had Dankula on the show and we've talked to him about his case. And I think at the time you felt that his joke was, you know, it was a way of supporting the Nazis or he wasn't maybe a Nazi or maybe he's far right. And I think you even helped or kind of organize the, taking down of his GoFundMe page and stuff like that. And you've since then, you know, to change your position to diametrically the opposite.

And I think you apologize to Marcus. So talk to us about that and what happened there. Because the issue of free speech in relation to all of these things is kind of the crucial issue, because if you can't talk about what the truth is, then it becomes very difficult, doesn't it? Yeah. But I have to say that my interest in this doesn't come from a free speech angle. I think it's even more fundamental in a weird way. It's really about being able to say what reality is.

I think if we're not able to say what reality is, then we will go mad. Right, but that's what's free speech is poor, is my point, Graham. If you don't have free speech, then you can't say what reality is. Sure, but I thought the reality of Count Dancula was that he was a, you know, I saw that he had videos on Stormfront. I saw that he was taking pictures with Tommy Robinson, you know, and I did that thing that I assembled an identicate of him that possibly wasn't true.

That possibly wasn't the whole truth, you know. But I do think, you know, things like the Kekistan flag and all that stuff, they really, I do find all that stuff grim, because it was, to me, it was kind of, of cheering on one of the worst things that's happened to humanity, which is Trump's win. You know, I wonder if we get four more years, will the world survive it, you know? So, you know, I, and also at that point I saw the rise of the fire right, and I was really worried about it, really scared they were getting a hold. And I saw this, and, you know, I combined

that with, there was a thing, I think, Box Day wrote or someone like that about how to hide your real anti-Semitic or whatever it happens to be intentions within comedy, because comedy is easier to absorb and stuff like that. But with Dankina, I just think, I mean, I know now that he's like, he's just someone who just, I don't know, likes poking those buttons, I guess, you know,

but yeah, but, you know, I mean, the thing about the getting the phone me brought down was I remember late after I apologize that he did say it was for an appeal that never happened and I do remember that that around that time they were a lot of right wing

people were monetizing these these stances and I kind of put him under that umbrella you know their appeal did happen just to be just to be fair to him their appeal did happen yeah yeah well then I I'm not I'm not

trying to get you to apologize again because you already did. What I want to find out is one of the things I found very interesting when the article came out and you retweeted it yourself and said you partly agree with it, was that you said you were now skeptical about some of the people who were cheering you on as you were criticizing Dankula. Talk to us about that.

Well, when Gamergate started, I mean, Gamergate was something that I felt proud of right up until recently, you know, because I saw it as a just a misogynistic hate campaign. In fact, don't be... So we're to interrupt, Graham, because there'll be people listening and watching it. I know what Gamergate is.

Can you just give a brief description of what it is and then your attitudes to it? Yeah, and my description, I'll try and make my description what I thought it was, what I now realise it was, and how it's changed. What I thought GamerGate was,

in its entirety, again like with Dinkula was a hate campaign aimed at women in the gaming industry that was you know they were they was employing things like swatting you know there were women gamers who were being the fucking SWAT teams were coming to their house killing you know one woman I think her dog was killed because that's the first thing they do when a SWAT team comes around to your house they shoot you up you know so so again because it was women being tired targeted. My anger reflexes got up because that's the thing I really can't bear. And I just jumped into it. And that's what I thought it was. But what it really was was a confluence of millions of

different things happening at the same time. There were a lot of, and I now realize there were a lot of young men who were much closer to the truth of what was happening in colleges and stuff than I was, who realized that there was this censorious, illiberal, um, uh, uh, canceling kind of culture that was really dangerous, you know? And they were all mixed up with, with, um, with the real right wingers and people like, uh, uh, uh, Unopoulos, uh, who, who it seemed to be was very cynically cashing in and trying to, trying to recruit, uh, young men into the right. In fact, I think he actually said that that's what he was doing.

So, you know, at the time I was just very hardline. I was like, you know, people would say, what is GamerGer? I'm almost confused by GamerGay. And I would say, it's a misogynistic hate campaign, and that's all it is. You know, I had a very hardline, you know, view of it. But I now realize that a lot of the people on my side, there was one person called Super Gamer Girl, you know. And I saw a picture of him, ball bloke with a huge. beard, you know? And these are the people who were doing all this. I thought I was defending women

some of the time, and some of the time I wasn't even, I was defending blokes, you know? So it was, it's, so I now see that what it really is, is a kind of a tribalistic war, especially in America between between two groups, is a kind of anarchic kind of, anarchy kind of Bernie Brown I guess you'd say and then on the other side you have these a combination of MAGA types but also you know people who are just who just like pushing the buttons on the other side you know I think it's all bad because in the end it you know you can't treat everything like a joke I remember when trump won a bunch of right ringers said we did it we elected a meme you know and and and and it might be fun and you might feel and I'm sure it gives you a huge feeling of power but you know

It's now killing their friends and family, you know. So, I mean, with, you know, the response to coronavirus. So, so my, my, by after, by being canceled and getting into this fight, I realized that there were a lot more currents that I was aware of. And I, to be honest, which I'm, I'm very proud of the, I'm very proud of what I've done in the women's rights thing recently, but I think I may have made a few mistakes in the Gamer Gay time. Yeah, but I think that's not an...

You know, some people will look at that and go, oh, he was a hypocrite, which I think one of the articles said about you. I actually think someone who's able to change their mind over time. I think that's something that every person should be proud of, is growing as a human being and learning and changing your mind as you realize more. I think that's pretty, it's a healthy thing to do. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you know, one thing that I've realized recently is something we should all guard against is certainty, you know.

And I like being on this side of this fight because so many people are telling us we're wrong, me and the feminists I support, that you spend most of your time going, am I wrong? I'm thinking about it and kind of, you know, and then no, I'm actually okay, you know. it's something that one should do. And I think my experience of Gamergate will mean that I do that more often probably. And Graham, don't you think part of the problem with the internet is that we have these discussions or debates, whether it's the trans debate, which is incredibly nuanced. There's a lot, you know, there's a lot of depth to this.

And we're trying to do it over Twitter. And I can't remember how many characters Twitter has, but you simply can't do it over that type of platform. And also as well, it's really, in order to have these types of conversations, debate, they really need to be done face to face, aren't they? Wouldn't you say? But it's not happening because they, like, as you know, one of the, one of Stonewall's cast iron rules was no debate, you know, they, this Denton's document, which, which perhaps you could put in the link to your, I'll send you, I'll send you, put it in the link in the video, You know, saying to avoid media scrutiny is just extraordinary.

And you'll notice, when have you ever seen a debate between two opposing sides? They're so rare. They're so rare. And it's because what happens is another brilliant way of silencing the women in this because they're using the news kind of ecosystem against itself. Because the news won't get someone on unless there's an opposing view. So if they get someone like Kathleen Stock on to talk about something, then the other side can go, no, she's a tariff, I'm not appearing with her. And then the piece just doesn't happen, you know. So yeah, I agree. Twitter is a terrible place for it to happen. But, you know, I thought I'd use it in a different way. I thought I would just keep hammering, hammering, hammering, hammering, hammering the points home over and over again until people couldn't mistake the points. And even that doesn't work. Because yesterday, I got message from two bearded blue-tick idiots

who are like, I'd love to know what happened to Graham. What the fuck? How, you know, my timeline is right there, you know? And none of the things I'm posting, there's a good answer to. So they just ignore it. It's the strangest thing. But yeah, Twitter makes it possible to do that for some reason. I think gaslighting is the time you used.

And I think when it comes to, you know, you've seen I interview with the Posey Parker, for example, where, you know, we pushed back on her pretty hard about some of the things because that's our job and we try to get to get to the bottom of some of these conversations. But, you know, there's biological reality and we are now in a position that you found yourself in that when you express clearly what is in my view, and this is why I don't think they do much polling on this because they know what would happen if they did polling on this, right? That's the view of 95% of the country. If you say to people, if you're born a man, you know, can you change your sex? Most people would say no, right? Now, that's not because they hate trans people. It's just because it's a fundamental biological reality.

And we are now in a position where, you know, if you express strongly your view that that is the case, you're automatically considered transphobic. Yeah, I know. I mean, that's it. And the bar is so low. Like, we've seen what happened to J.K. Rowling when she tweets, a completely compassionate and reasonable thing, you know. And then they can't, there's also so many trans people who agree with us,

more and more every day, you know, who are just, who are just in despair at the damage that's being done because of these lunatics, you know? And there does have to be a little, there does have to be gatekeeping in this sense, because there are certainly different types of people who are drawn to this, you know? there are like, like, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the ideology is so incoherent that it means that, I mean, you know, the best example of how incoherent the, the ideology is, is that Karen White, the, the trans woman, I don't even think it's a trans woman, bloke, it's a bloke, taking a piss, but Karen White got into a women's prison and, and sexually assaulted four women in a women's prison in the UK, where segregation is still the law of the land. That's how bamboozled the prison service were by Stonewall's advice. And that kind of advice is now seen through so many different kind of institutions and so on. And it doesn't hold up. It doesn't hold up to anything. So you're

constantly second-guessing yourself. And I remember someone wrote a brilliant thing where they said, I've written something. Hopefully it isn't transphobic. And it's like they've just kind of painted themselves into the stupidest corner, you know? And I mean, the only, I wish there was some, like, it makes no difference at all. But I tagged in this morning,

I sent that photograph of that bloke to John Ronson and Frankie Boyle and a few other people who do the transombole. women or women thing. I said, you know, is this a woman or whatever? You know, and they, Billy Bragg immediately blocked me, you know, and it's like, it's just hilarious. They can't, they can't answer the questions that they've set up for themselves. You know what I mean? It's so strange. So, so, anyway, sorry, I rambled again. No, but you know, the one thing I wanted to talk about, and actually with the three of us, because it's unresolved for me is, you know, Francis and I,

Do you remember, Francis, when we first even started getting people on to talk about this? We were like, well, you know, it's a minority issue, isn't it? It's like something that, you know, affects like no point, whatever percent of the population. Is it really worth talking? Is it really that interesting? I was always standing with women, Graham. Just with me. You, pussy.

But it's become a major issue, I think, for the reason that you say, because, yes, of course, the women's rights issue is a big one, but it speaks to a much more fundamental thing, which is do we live in a society where you are able to speak the truth? And what this is revealing is there are areas of life on where you are not able to speak the truth. Because if you do, you know, at best people will have the experience that you've had, right? Sure, yeah. But the shame is that all you need is, all we need to happen is for more people to raise. their voice, you know. The biggest, the biggest problem is people frightened to say it,

people who are, you know, I mean, a lot of women on Twitter have to be anonymous who are talking about this because if they use their, they're scared of using their real accounts because they might get banned, you know? And I remember when Twitter brought in their misgendering rules, one tweet said, Twitter changed their terms and conditions, so misgendering is not a, happy hunting everyone, you know. So this is men silencing women, you know? So, yeah. Which I personally approve of, but it's...

It's the Russian way, mate. It's the Russian way. But it's kind of... But what I just... There's two things I don't understand. First things I don't understand why more people aren't speaking up. Because once you speak up, you create an atmosphere that makes it okay for other people to speak up. And suddenly you're not alone.

Suddenly, like me, for instance, I'm completely isolated. amongst my celebrity friends at the moment. There's one or two people who are speaking up for me who I'll always be grateful to. But for the most part, they not only don't speak up for you, they actually come out against you. Like, you know, I showed a photograph of some 50-year-old chancer on a college basketball team with some girls, you know.

And John Ronson criticized me for sharing the photograph, not for this pervert on this team. you know, taking advantage again of these incoherent rules. So I just find it's just extraordinary. People won't just not say anything, but go the extra mile and I'll actually throw women under the bus, you know? I mean, Ronson, God almighty, it blows my mind. You know, the king of nuance and he believes that he believes a trans woman or women, you know.

It's just, he does not see any of the problems. He doesn't see the danger. He doesn't think women's sports are important enough to be bothered about. He doesn't think that, you know, the safeguarding problems that arise. You know, I don't know if you help or whether you follow my feet at all. But, you know, one of the things I share that blows me away is a sign in a toilet that says, if you see anyone in here that looks out of place, don't question them. They know better than you do, you know.

If you're a young girl and a man approaches you in a fucking toilet, then a poster like that is making that young girl less safe. It's taking even more power away from that young girl, you know? So the fact that someone like Frankie Boyle and, sorry, I love naming him, I'm like fucking hate him so much, but Frankie Boyle and John Ronson, Josie Long and all these people, the fact that they will fight, fight for that man and not for that young girl, it blows my mind every day, you know. To be honest with you, sometimes I read your tweets and I'm like, wow, that is, you know, very much, like you said yourself, like a blunt instrument. Do you sometimes think that actually if you approach this subject with a little bit more nuance in your tweets, a little bit genter, maybe a little bit more of a conciliatory tone, that the blowback wouldn't be as harsh on you? Well, no, because, because as you know, they don't accept anything. Like, J.K. Rowling got cancelled because of one tweet, you know.

So if that's the, if that's how it's going to be, then you might as well tell the, you know, tell the truth and the whole truth, you know. And also the trans women who support me in this, not many, a couple of trans men who support me. And a lot of detransitioners who were very nice to be as well. But the trans women who support me in this, people like Debbie Hayton and Christina Harrison, I mean, Christina Harrison said a brilliant thing in her speech. She said that she talked about Eddie Isart. Said that Eddie Isart is now saying he has a trans status, you know.

And she said that she used to admire Eddie Isart when he used to say that he was a transvestite, that he was a cross-dresser or whatever you want to call it. But now that he's saying this, you know, she said something like, But he's not a woman and neither am I, you know. And that's the trans women I'm friends with. Brave, you know, they kind of face their dysphoria. They face their condition with real, you know, from a reality-based mindset. And they're much happier than all these miserable people

who spend their time hunting feminists down and, you know, you know, it's it's it's just it's we're encouraging a form of mental illness do you think do you think we're making some progress on a though graham i mean we've just had the review of the gender recognition act in the UK which now says that you have to be 18 before you before you're able to transition do you think we're starting to see that reality is making a comeback i do a little bit yeah yeah i think that um you know, it's, it's, as a lifelong lefty, although I've lost my tribalism completely,

you know, it's galling that... Getting cancelled, we'll do that to you. It's galling that the Conservatives did it, but, you know, I don't care who stands up for women as own as someone does, you know, and they've been great, and Labor have been an absolute joke. I mean, here's how fundamentally this, issue destroys women's rights. Joe Swinston, I think, lost because of it. If you can't answer who,

what a woman is on TV, then how can anyone vote for you? You know, and the labor leaders, all the women labor leaders made absolute pricks of themselves on on TV. You know, Lisa Nandy said that pedophiles should be housed with, with male, with female prisoners, uh, uh, uh, Don Butler with her, with her, with her babies are born without a sex. I don't agree with what Miranda Yardley said about that. I think she'd be meant it. I think she doubled down on it. And, you know, I'm calling, most outrageously of all,

and I really wish they'd sue, but they keep having their funding stopped, so it's hard for them to sue anyway. But LGBT Alliance and Women's Place UK, I know these fucking women. You know, they include people like Linda Bellops, you know, who started Black History, month, I think, in the UK. Helen Steele, who sued McDonald's on her own and won, you know,

these are absolute stars of left-wing activism. And they're being, you know, Helen Steele had a point of beer thrown in her face when she turned up to defend a student who was being bullied for being gender-critical. You know, the lack of respect for left-wing heroes is extraordinary, you know. again sometimes I get way laid and I'm not sure where I began that's it well we began with me asking whether you think we're making progress so I think the the Gender Recognition Act situation certainly I think you'd consider progress do you think Kira Bell is going to be huge when Kira Bell wins her case even if she

loses and people see this per kid who whose voice is now a man's voice and his facial structure has been changed forever who says she shouldn't have been told she shouldn't have been left to do these things to herself when she was 16. When more people see this, they'll wake up, I think. And Graham, so you think that we're moving essentially in the right direction now. Do you think that with COVID, we might see a gentler, kinder? I can already tell what your answer is going to be, but... Yeah, no, it's been great, hasn't it? I mean, I don't know about you, but I've been doing... I mean, you kind of do lots of video stuff anyway, but I've been, I've been seeing more people.

you know, since the COVID thing started, you know. So it seems not. Also, I have a feeling we'll come out of it thinking, wondering whether the five-day week is actually a good idea, whether, you know, we should have three days to hang out with our kids, Rodden 2. Do you know what I mean? I think things, I think there might, maybe we'll get more kids learning at home.

I don't know. I think it could be good. It could be good long term. My big worry is I need to get the fucking theaters open so I can put on the TED musical. you know that's that's the that's the thing i really need to happen don't we all david oh so david sorry what i've got i've been living on my own video i can be anyone you want this episode is brought to you by netflix's remarkably bright creatures what if a pacific octopus held the key to a mystery

that could heal your heart well that's tova's reality an elderly widow working at an aquarium tova forms an unlikely friendship with the crumudgeonly marcellus whose remarkable intelligence leads her to a life-changing discovery. Watch remarkably bright creatures with your remarkable moms this Mother's Day weekend, only on Netflix May 8th. You see, what happened there is we've just had an Irish guest on the show, and he just thinks you're all the same, mate. That's what that is.

But it's fine because you're white and a man, therefore I can do that. Stop being white for agile or showing white fragility to me. But the one thing I wanted to talk to you about as well, and it's because we touch on cancellation, and you're being very joking about it. But what was cancellation? What happened to you? And what were the implications of it?

Well, funnily enough, I kind of planned for it all this in a weird way. I did say to myself, I'm going to do this for a while. I had some money from my cancer treatment, so I thought I would, and people were being nice to me

because I'd had cancer. So I thought, well, I'll use this time to not work and I'll just throw myself into this. And I'll be protected for a while by the cancer money. And then I got the TED musical, you know, so hopefully the TED musical will find. And, you know, because I thought if they attacked a TED musical, it will just kind of bring more attention to it. And they'll see, and the wider public will see how insane this stuff is. But, you know, then the TED musical took a lot longer than I thought. and the things I did try and get going,

nearly all of them went north. I had one phone call from a guy who, who, you know, he picked up the phone full of enthusiasm, offers me this great job. And I said, okay, yeah, no great, that's brilliant, you know. Put down the phone, maybe five minutes later, calls me back, sorry, it's been taken by someone else. I was, you know, and I thought about it for a while.

And I realized I knew exactly what happened. This guy went out to the office. And he said, guess what, everybody? I got Rayne Lillen to do it, you know? And the intern put up their hand and said, he's a bigot. And that's it, you know, because you don't want to get the, you don't want to get the younger members of staff angry, you know. So, so, yeah, so that's what I have.

So you lost work, you lost friends. Yeah. You've had the police call you. I feel good about the friends. I swapped out my fair weather friends for feminists and, you know, people who really believe in things. May I know exactly what you mean. That is one of the great things about doing this show for us is we've swapped all the people that we thought were our friends. Yeah.

That weren't our friends for people that actually understand what we're talking about and why we're doing it. And, you know, they might not agree with us on every issue of politics, but they understand the importance of truth. reality of a bullshit and conformity. He's lying. We're complete on our own, Graham. Send us money. I used to kind of, I think I may even have sent you something, Snariki once, I'm ashamed to say, because he used to hate terms like triggered and all that sort of stuff because I thought it was kind of, and even now,

I still know a huge fan of things like Titania McGrath because I find all that stuff. what I now realize is that is that it was it was actually true these you know all this stuff was true and and and I do find my thing is you can't it's hard to make fun of it when the true stuff is so mad you know and and I realized but I really and so I thought that people were exaggerating I thought people were exaggerating about the state of you know um culture and all that sort of stuff. And I think a lot of people think that, you know. But of course, it's, it's so true.

People get, people get fired for the most insane things. Like Helen Watts, who's a girl guide leader, you know, who objected to not only boys suddenly being able to sleep in the same tent as girls, but girl guide leaders being able to be men and the parents don't have to be notified. Yeah. It's legal to notify them. Yeah. And even on a smaller level, I mean, as the sacked a guy who shared the Billy Connolly routine about religion on his Facebook.

Yeah. And the routine was from a DVD that they sell in ASDA. I know, I know. So that's where, but you know, on Titania and, you know, triggered and all this kind of stuff. I mean, I think Andrew Doyle and Titani is actually a very good, it's a mirror, you know, and that is the function of comedy sometimes, particularly satire, not so much comedy, but satire is to hold up a mirror to society and say, look, this is what it looks like, you know? And that's not comfortable. And people don't like it, just like they don't like you making things black and white in the way that some things in life are. You're saying, is this a man or is this a woman? People don't like that because it forces them to confront their own duplicity and their own. weakness and their own fear. That's why people don't like it. And that's why I think some people don't like Titania. And the same with us. I mean, yes, we call the show Triggernometry, but it's actually more of a trigger warning than anything. We're saying, if you're uncomfortable with

controversial discussions, don't watch. You know, we're not, we're not 12-year-old drawing, and oh, triggered, you know, like. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I get that now. I get that now. Again, you know, there's, I can talk about myself as a kind of a lab, rat, you know? And we must talk someday about how I thought about all these things, you know, because I kind of see now, I don't know, for me, it's like, do you remember when, well, do you remember, sorry, this is a way of putting it, but the head of the MI5, head of ML5 was a Russian agent. Who was that again? What was his name? You're very close into racism here, Graham. You keep alive, mate.

Mate, mate, be kind. You're talking about his uncle. Come on. He was it, though. Oh, God,

I forget one of the Cambridge spies, you know. Right. And he was the head of, he was the head of MI5 for, for years and did untold damage. Sent, sent thousands of people to,

or, you know, hundreds of agents to be, to be tortured to death, you know, knowingly, you know. by putting them on missions and then telling the Russians they were coming and stuff like this. And then after that, there was a few years where MI5 simply didn't know good to trust.

And they were totally paranoid and kind of fighting amongst themselves, blah, blah, blah, blah. Now, I know this is a very roundabout way of getting here, but you read a John La Cary novel. It's so complicated and so hard to take in. It's all about that kind of spirit and that time. but it does nothing compared to the internet. The internet is a whole of mirrors, you know, and we have no idea who we're talking to. We have no idea if we're doing the right thing at any one moment.

It's, it's, I think that as a species, we weren't ready for it. And we're still not ready and we're still adjusting, you know. I think there have to be lots of conversations about the effect of porn on kids, you know, whether porn is making young girls feel want to escape their sexuality whether it's making young I fuck knows what it's doing to young boys

but when you see a 20 year old kid in pig tails you know it's like no no no no this something's going wrong something's really gone wrong 20 year old male with pig tails and simpering at the camera you know with a Patreon link in their in their thing it's it's

there's got to be a conversation about porn why do you hate progress so much Graham Why do you have progress? Listen, mate, speaking of conversations, we'd love to have you back on the show when we can do it in studio and we can continue because we've run out of time.

Oh, okay. No, I'm happy to talk any time. And yeah, it's an interesting subject to all this, isn't it? I'd like to do it. It is. No, we'd love to have you back when we can sit down and talk face to face.

I think that would be great. But thank you very much for coming on. And we just got one more question for you, mate. And the question always is, Graham, what's the one thing we're not talking about as a society that we really should be. Oh, God.

Okay. Oh, I know. Trans rights. Perfect. If people want to follow you, your Twitter, remind everybody what your Twitter is, if they want to check out your work and activism,

I suppose it would be the right way of describing it. Is Glinner, yep. It's Glinner, ad Glinner. We'll make sure to put it in the video. Thanks for coming on, and we'll see all. all of you who've been watching very soon. And we'll see Graham very soon for another interview

when we can do it face to face. Definitely. Absolutely. I'll be honest with Graham, I can't wait for the Father Ted musical. It's going to be blinding. Oh man, the songs are amazing so far. And I think we really, we really nailed it. You know, it's very funny, I think, you know.

We did lose one joke the other day where Dougal says, someone calls Doebel stupid. He says, I'll never be Albert Epstein, that's for sure. You lost that one. That's brilliant. All right, well, thanks very much, Graham. Thanks for talking to me.

Thanks, me. See you too.