TRIGGERnometry - Have Conservatives Lost the Culture War? - Ed West

Episode Date: September 5, 2021

Ed West is an author, journalist and deputy editor of UnHerd. Join our exclusive TRIGGERnometry community on Locals! https://triggernometry.locals.com/ OR Support TRIGGERnometry Here: https://www.subscribestar.com/trigger... https://www.patreon.com/triggerpod​​​ Bitcoin: bc1qm6vvhduc6s3rvy8u76sllmrfpynfv94qw8p8d5 Buy Merch Here: https://www.triggerpod.co.uk/shop/​​​ Advertise on TRIGGERnometry: [e-mail] Join the Mailing List: https://www.triggerpod.co.uk/sign-up/​​​ Find TRIGGERnometry on Social Media: https://twitter.com/triggerpod​​​ https://www.facebook.com/triggerpod​​​ https://www.instagram.com/triggerpod​​​ About TRIGGERnometry: Stand-up comedians Konstantin Kisin (@konstantinkisin) and Francis Foster (@francisjfoster) make sense of politics, economics, free speech, AI, drug policy and WW3 with the help of presidential advisors, renowned economists, award-winning journalists, controversial writers, leading scientists and notorious comedians. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Progressives basically, you know, they came out, well, there was a generational thing. They were the youngsters as the 60s of fighting against their parents. And it was an ideology that sort of came out of rebellion. And it's always defined itself by, you know, by being, you know, against the man. And then once you are the man, like, what do you do then? Hello, and welcome to Trigonometry. I'm Francis Foster. I'm Constantine Kissen.

And this is a show for you if you want honest conversations with fascinating people. Our brilliant guest today is a writer for unheard and an author, Ed West. Welcome to Trigonometry. Thank you for having me. It's so great to have you on. We've been really enjoying many of the articles you wrote and your latest book, Small Men on the wrong side of history, which is about the decline and potential unlikely return of conservatism, as you put it.

And we'll get into that, of course. But before we get into the conversation itself, let me ask you a very broad question, which is mainly who are you, how are you where you are, what has been your journey through life? Well, as I sort of put in the book, the book is basically a bit of autobiography as well. I'm one of those lame people who never went on that sort of journey from left to right, which I sort of, I always feel jealous to those people, because I suppose I was basically always quite conservative. And, but as I got older, I sort of noticed my friends were actually becoming like more liberal as the whole, you know, the whole world basically went in the direction.

So that was the amazing book. I mean, I'm from London. My parents are both journalists. So it was kind of a nevitable that I'd get into this. My dad was a foreign correspondent during the Cold War, and he started off as a communist, and he became very reactionary, like comically reactiony. So you went full Peter Hitchens, did he?

Oh, yeah, I think he went beyond Pete Hitchens. He was like anti-enlightenment. He thought it was a terrible idea. He was basically pro-made evil, really. Yeah, so he's a bit of centric. So that's why I think that basically influenced me. I was basically born with the red pill, you know, in my mouth. It was just never any of that youthful frolicing with liberalism.

So, yeah, so that was very much like the Cold War sort of background atmosphere. So we sort of knew all about that. You know, communism was kind of this great evil. And now I've grown up and the communists are sort of winning, I think, in a way, in a kind of strange way, psychologically. Yeah, we'll get into that because one of the most fascinating articles I've read in recent times was your piece about how actually the cultural revolution is complete. Maybe let's get right into that.

When you say the communist are kind of winning, what do you mean? It sounds a bit reds under the bed to a lot of people. Yeah, it might make me sound like a bit of a loony, but that's probably true. My basic thing is, well, I noticed about, you know, the kind of people in the past, you did have, like, personality traits match politics. So if you're quite, if you're quite conscientious and uptight and, you know, really obsessed, like, I was really early today because I'm a conservative. I hate being late.

So conscientious people tend to be like quite conservative. Well, people are more neurotic and more open-minded tend to be liberal. So that's why the arts are liberal. But what I noticed more and more recently is that if you meet someone who's very conscientious and uptight, the kind of person in the 50s would be like, you know, your arch conservative, they now, the young ones anyway, tend to sort of believe in all the sort of progressive sort of ideas, the dominant ideas. You know, they will, you know, they will be obviously very pro-remain.

They'll be quite simply to it's BLM because it's like a decent thing to do, you know, quality. And so Garrette Southgate was basically like a sort of stopping our point of that article. You know, he said that we should take the knee. And I thought, well, it's kind of interesting that now that's what happens when the revolution is done. You know, the actual revolution has become quite conservative because now they're fixed in place. They control things. I mean, it's the same with the communist regimes, Eastern Europe were like very conservative. They're full of old men.

They hate to change. They were now fixed in place. And so, you know, they had their own moral order and they didn't want it changed. And I think that's what's kind of happened, you know, the period of we growing up in, I mean, especially comedy, like the golden age of comedy was probably around the turn of the millennium, in my view, because everything was kind of up for grabs, everything was the question. Like Seinfeld was all about because no one knows what is like the social norm about stuff. There's less confusion.

Now that so much comedy, which couldn't be made in 2000, I mean, which was made, that period, which couldn't have been made in the 60s, now can't be made again. I use the example of Life of Brian, which could never be made now, just as it could never have been made in 1960. I mean, the joke about, you know, a man who calls himself a woman, which was obviously being so self-evidently stupid in that time, you just, that would be impossible to make now. You couldn't blaspheme Jesus because he's a prophet of Islam. You know, there is, I mean, there is basically a de facto blasphemy law about Islam is that people

don't want to be be beheaded generally. It's not a good career most. It's generally not a good you know, generally. And then loads of people come up and say, oh, you know, well, I think, oh, I want to punch down. I don't want to, you know, because I want my head on my body. That's like a base. It's about fear. Yeah. Yeah. But then, you know, the trans thing is also, you know, that's also enforcing fear. And that's a sort of new, like pride, like, all the sort of teenagers like love pride. And pride is basically the same as like 100 years ago or 50 years ago, went to Malta or Ireland or Poland and the Corpus Christi procession were in June or the kids dress up and, you know, show their faith in the sort of state religion. And now pride is basically

that. I mean, that... So to summarize your argument, what you were really saying is we had a cultural revolution where a lot of these progressive ideas were advanced and embedded into society. And now we're at the point where it's the sort of middle management rung of society, the people who who used to be the face of conservatism, tradition, etc. This has become the new conservative tradition in a way. This says. I mean, it's based on some very unconcervative ideas. Fundamentally, progressivism is unconservative because it's, you know,

it's based on the blank slate. It's all these kind of ideas of truth. But, I mean, you know, the Scots Alexander, I don't even follow it. He writes his blog in California. It's just great. It's the best blog. And he makes an example, you know, he talks about the kind of like made an aunt in the 50s who disapproved of everyone.

And, you know, the kind of classic, they're not young men reading night because they've stopped and have fun. You know, say, tell you off your language, tell you off of your language, tell you off of what you're saying, you're reading the wrong books. Those, if you heard about someone who is stopping you reading books now or telling you about language, you can guarantee 100% they'll be on the left.

It'll be, I mean, it's almost guaranteed. You know, that same person is now saying, you can't read that book because I can't have that book because it's racist rather than, you know, because it was sexual or, you know, I don't want these bad people who have the wrong ideas of, I mean, there are just, you know, there are so many different examples of that where there is, you know, ideas are now fixed and there are sort of moral codes. You know, like we have the C words and now it's the N words. I mean, I think in the sense, you know, every society needs these kind of taboos and needs these, you know, things that can't be said. But, you know, it's, and also the other thing is the moral relativism. That was a massive thing. You know, that was a classic sort of like daily male things. Oh, these moral relativists. Like when it was the last time, you heard that talked about the left being moral relativists, they're not. I mean, they are completely

the most, I mean, as left broadly, I mean sort of the activists on campus, the sort of progressives, you know, the work people, they're not moral relatives, they're absolutely confirmed in their moral beliefs. You know, there's no doubt about it whatsoever. So that's what happens when you take control. You don't allow these kind of questions of doubt anymore. And what effect does that have on society that we're not allowed to question, that we're not allowed to play with these kind of ideas? I mean, I think you can never have effective outcomes if you have taboos about what is what is true. I mean, I think the Afghanistan is a classic example.

The US has spent, is it a trillion? And it's going to be two trillion when, you know, deal with all the broken knives back in America. This was all based on a completely fraudulent idea of what, what is possible with Afghanistan. You know, it's completely naive idea we can turn Afghanistan into a liberal state. It's a very tribal culture, even taking away the religious, because there are Muslim countries which can be liberal, but Afghanistan is an incredibly clannish society. It was just never going to happen.

If you could openly say, listen, the Afghans are not going to be liberal Democrats. There's huge amounts of taboos about stuff of that. So instead, that kind of really wasn't discussed probably. The result was thousands of death, 20 years of wasted lives, you know, $2 trillion. You know, you should have absolutely, I don't believe there should be no taboos, but you should be able to sort of say really uncomfortable truths. The truth should not be taboo is what you're really saying. Yeah, I mean, and there are loads of areas where, you know,

we can never really say honestly what we think the truth is because no wants their lives are in, do you? I mean, no one really wants to be a heretic, do they? I mean, they don't crush people, don't put them in gulags anymore, but no one wants to be unemployable or, you know, even worse, have your, you know, bank card removed, you know, in the worst cases. I mean, let's push back on that a little bit. There are people who have made careers that are being cancelled.

that is one of the arguments and gained a certain notoriety to themselves. So is that really true? I think there are certain people who enjoy that kind of thing. You have to be really disagreeable kind of person. You know, there's like Katie Hopkins or someone who likes being this kind of pantomime villain, likes being hated, and then you can make a certain money.

But even they get, you know, the career move is very short, even like something like Milo, Yonapolis, you know, eventually he was taking off Twitter and it was like, oh, we'll make him stronger and more than the Thoris, no, it just ended his career. Now he's on some like no mark social website. But very few people, and those are sort of professional, you know, a professional economist can say these things to a certain extent and be hated.

And they'll still have got a job. But it's the people in sort of ordinary jobs who can't say it. I mean, loads and loads of people have been sacked. For example, even after the BLM thing, you know, loads of people saying, oh, you know, can I just point out, George Floyd wasn't like exactly a saint. You know, he might have actually done some, you know, been to prison and blah, blah. And, you know, like eight, there were like eight to nine people who were sacked off of that. in Britain, in various small jobs, you know.

There's a policeman who sent a George Floyd joke on this, you know, he was actually prosecuted by the police. That's no joke. It's literally a blasphemy law. It's, I mean, that is, you know, a real issue, I think. People do feel like slightly scared to voice opinions. They do feel, I completely agree. They do feel scared to voice opinions.

How have we let it go this far, though? because surely the vast majority of people in this country don't agree with that. They don't agree with where we've ended up. I don't know. I mean, how many people are in the Taliban? They're quite small, aren't they? They managed to take over the country.

I mean, I think a very small number of people are quite a certain. I mean, what is the latest polls? I mean, like 8% of Americans would identify themselves as woke or something. And, you know, those 8% happen to be disproportionately educated, you know, well-off, influential. also like very determined, a very small minority can really change the country, rapidly, change the culture. And, you know, you'll have that 8%, but you'll have another 20% who probably

think, well, you know, I'm not really them with them, but I dislike the right more. So give them a, you know, one of the examples I use in the book is, you know, the Reformation started. There were a tiny little minority in university, in not, well, Cambridge and London, who are sort of, you know, radical Protestants. And they, you know, they were a tiny minority. And then 50 years later, there were the majority. And the Catholics all of a sudden were the wrong side of history. It's interesting you mentioned the Reformation because the Reformation, of course, I mean, arguably it was caused by technological progress, right?

The printing press essentially allowed people to disseminate it. Yeah, it's impossible without it. And it's kind of similar to where we are now. Apparently I was there, exactly. I mean, not did the internet starts it and then social media kind of accelerates it. I mean, the great awakening, there had been like such a rapid change in public opinion amongst Democrats in America, particularly upper middle class, in just eight years, which is just so unprecedented that amount of shift. And that is entirely social media led, I think, you know,

it's just it can spread ideas so quickly. To the point where I think Barack Obama running in 2012 or talking in 2014 can talk about the southern border in exactly the same way that Donald Trump talked about it, but in a period of six or eight years, we've gone from that position being the standard position shared across both parties to where now anyone who says what Barack Obama said only a few years ago is now, you're just racist now. I mean, Trump's tone is obviously terrible enough. His actual policies, and you track him, what Barack Obama and what, you know, what Clinton

was saying about and Clinton's, you know, immigration advisor, you know, who's a black woman in the mid-90s, what was saying about diversity immigration would just put you so beyond the pale. And that was just completely normal. And, you know, people, I say, of course, society's changed, but change is so quickly in such rapid space is, I think, like, generally disturbing. I mean, I, I mean, at what point, you know, I know people disagree about, oh, the, you know,

younger people are going to rebel about it. I mean, I've always been a bit pessimistic about that. Although recently, I've kind of slightly changed my mind. I think maybe there will be a little bit. But I don't know. I mean, when people would say, oh, you know, like there's transgender movement. another issue where people are genuinely scared.

It comes more and more extreme positions become normalised. And I always think, at what point, you know, when's the sort of, you know, the retreat, when's the fight back going to come? And it just never does. It just gets more and more bizarre until something now is completely normal four years ago and now is considered like hate speech literally. Ed, what would you say to those people who go,

look, mate, hang on a second here. We've got a conservative government in charge. The reality is, with the way Labor is, we're never going to get a leftist government, certainly for the next few years, let's say 10 years. No, no, I agree with that. Yeah. So, you know, what are you complaining about?

I mean, the Conservative Party is very good at, you know, at maintaining power by basically, accepting the amount of chain. That's fine and, you know, being a more moderate version. But, you know, I would argue conservatives have limited political power in this country. I mean, it's limited by the fact that you have to get elected and, you know, the majority. But the left has, like, absolute cultural. cultural power. You know, like, almost, there is almost zero opposition to leftist culture power.

So, I mean, it's the deep stay, but all the institutions that are basically leftist. And there's very little, it seems very like little conservative appetite. Like to actually fight that would be a really, really, like, costly effort. When you say fight, so when you talk about the institutions, what the BBC, I'm guessing. I mean, not just the BBC, but I mean, like charities, for example, you know, If you meet people work in the home office, you're, you know, people say, oh, I don't believe in prison. It's a sort of, you know, it's barbaric.

In a hundred years' time, we'll have no prisons. Like, your job is to put people in prison. Like, how can you, or the Ministry of Justice, sorry. You know, the people within that are not conservatives. And I mean, even even with this thing of Stonewall, like Stonewall, you know, the government says, oh, we're going to have some fight back. We're going to stop Stonewall cooperate with Stonewall over the trans things. Like, what on earth was Stonewall doing in schools in the first place?

You've been in power for 10 years. That is a very, you know, progressive organization. That is not something you should be sporting. And the only fight back on, you know, the trans issue was by basically feminists, who are the people who sort of got the balls, so speak, to stand up to more extreme elements. So you can't even, you know, conservatives can't even fight that issue. They have to sort of get leftist allies to do the fighting for them.

So there's, you know, very, this is one of, I mean, this is one of the reasons why I'm not, you know, so mad about Brexit is that I think they've just put all their kind of, all their effort was going into, to Brexit basically. Like we've got to win this one argument and you know what little energy we've got is going to go on this and you know we're not going to bother with any other sort of basic fight we have to have. Ed, I think we've come and I to the point and I'm sure that you would agree with this where the labels we traditionally use left, right, conservative, liberal, they've kind of lost their meaning. Right. Because 20 years ago you could argue that everybody

sitting in this room is a liberal. Not here. He was a conservative from the extreme, Matt. He came out of the womb. But, you know, let's put... They used to crush the red pill into his breast, no. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But let's be fair, look, I imagine, you know, your, you know, I imagine pro-gay marriage, you know, all of these things,

which you would ascribe to be liberal, right? Yeah. Okay. Now, we fast forward whatever it is 20 years. I don't think anybody in this room would be described as liberal. I'm liberal. Well, I mean, you see... Now, you're using your American language.

Yeah, yeah. You know, we've lost that battle. I mean, I'm liberal. I believe in freedom. I believe in maximizing people's freedom. Why, when did that stop being liberal? It just did. I mean, I would definitely say what you, I mean, what Americans know as liberal is very, is, is, is no way liberalism.

Right. Yeah. It's the real shame that, you know, both opponents insist on, you know, calling them liberals still. They should just refuse to do it as principle. You know, the ideology, which I suppose began really had its roots in 60s at, I call it progressivism, because I don't know, I think that's what they, I think it's fair to, they would, they would be fair with that. It's not an insult to term. It believes in certain core issues, but, you know, it doesn't, it's not, it's not pro-free speech necessarily, like progressive stent to be anti.

It's not, it's not pro-freedom of association, which is by, most by definition, racist and sexist. You know, it doesn't believe in those kind of core, like, beliefs that John Locke came up in the system, in no way liberal. Conservatism is still, I mean, I don't left and right. I mean, I think there is still a sort of basic psychological mindset that differs between left and right. There is still a, that was always track. I guess what you're getting at, though, is Peter Hitchens, for example, would say the conservatives are no longer conservative either, right? Yeah, he's been saying, yeah, I mean, he's been saying that for quite a long time. I mean, I love Hitches, he's great.

Yeah. And the second part, so these labels don't really mean what they use to me. What's my point, right? I think that's partly because progressives are in power, and so once you're in power, you're like, your mindset changes. I mean, my problem is, like, progressive, you know, they came out, well, there was a generational thing.

They were the youngsters as the 60s are fighting against their parents. And it was an ideology that sort of came out of rebellion and it's always defined itself by, you know, by being, you know, against the man. And then once you are the man, like, what do you do that? I mean, like, how do you then frame it? You know, you just end up fighting these completely,

like, straw man battles against, like, an establishment which is just completely gone. All this thing about, oh, you know, why aren't we being taught about the, you know, the British Jam? This is all the stuff you're not taught at school about the British Gemps. When it was the last time, like, teacher teachers were like really right wing. It's like, when I was going to have in the 80s, they weren't like members of the Empire loyalists at the time. But like teachers have been lefty for like 50 or 60 years. Like who you are going against?

You're arguing against something that stopped being true. They're making out like kids like learning our island story at school. But all they're fighting against is like a society has never really exists. anymore. It's interesting that you said because I think that's so true in comedy that a lot of comedians certainly in our experience or in my experience felt like they were pushing against the system. Right. When it was quite clearly observable by the decisions that were being made, who was being booked to do TV, etc. That that way of thinking is embedded as the system. Exactly. I mean, you're not, it's not. So you're not fighting back against the man. You're not fighting back against anything. You're

are part of the system that's propagating itself. I mean, that does make, you know, good comedy. So like, you know, Dave Allen, when he made jokes about the Catholic Church, I mean, that's the classic example I use. People were really scared of the church in Ireland, particularly. You know, like, they can make your life of misery. So when he was sort of making these kind of jokes, it'd be real, that'd be really funny because people would be thinking, you know, I've been thinking,

I've been thinking that my whole life and I can't say it. But yeah, I mean, if you're making jokes about a sort of conservative system now, there's just, you know, people, like, everyone says that. What's the, yeah, literally, there's the pride flag flying from all our government buildings. Like, where's the humor there? So the second part of my question, Ed, yeah. No, it's good, you apologize. But not.

I love watching English people. Yeah. Sorry, sorry. Sorry. What does it mean? What is conservatism now? What does it mean to be a conservative? Well, yes, it's a good question.

I mean, I didn't actually finish answering the first one. So the conservative party has always been a line. between conservatives and liberals. I mean, that has been for, well, not always, it's been for back since the Labour Party arose. So, you know, you have different factions within it, which, you know, Liz Trust is a liberal. And that's fine because it's basically, the Conservative Party was like an anti-socialist alliance. So its main job was to stop basically, like, Labor ruining the equality. You know, so, but at the time, Labor, you know, between Labor and Conservatives,

there wouldn't have been, like, until the 60s, there was no kind of cultural differences. it all would have been, you know, it all would have been by today's standards completely beyond the pale. And it only changed in the 60s and Labor started becoming more liberal. So, yeah, you're right. I mean, there are some, like, conservative MPs who are like, you know, full on conservative. I mean, what does it mean? The Jacob Rees-Mogg's of the world. Jacob, yeah, he's, yeah, he is a, I suppose he's a proper conservative, isn't he?

I mean, I looks like one anyway. I mean, yeah, he looks like it. I mean, I never know if he's, is he lapping or not? Is this all like a bit of a persona? I don't know. I don't know him. But the point you're making is a fair one. He's a parody of a conservative.

I think that's the only way you can actually get away at it now is by becoming a bit of a joke. You can't do it on an ironic level. You can't do it earnestly because then you're just a monster. Yeah, exactly. Then you just be treated like you're, sub beyond the park. I mean, the problem is, you know,

the conservative is classic argument to say, oh, I'm just there to put the brakes on, or, you know, driving the speed limit or sort of stop things. accelerating. The problem is like when things accelerate so much, if your job is just to slow things down, it's like, what are we heading towards? Like, I mean, take with the trans issue or like with diversity, like, at one point you just say like, no, enough. There's no one, I mean, it seems very hard for someone to articulate that without kind of being monsters. And I think

there isn't really, there isn't much kind of like no one's really volunteering to be that kind of the bad guy. It's, it's, um, I mean, it basically. point since about the 1990s, conservative opinions have been publicly quite taboo, like, saying, you know, properly conservative stuff. Now, what are we talking about? Well, I think if you look back at, say, the immigration thing in the late 90s, you know, Blair massively increased immigration. And I had to sort of, I did the report ages ago on the BBC did this.

And in some, you know, some cases, they'll have like five or six people lying out saying, this is great, amazing. And then you have one, you know, bad Tory. It's basically his job was like the guy in wrestling dressed up like Iranian. He might as have like, you know, baddy music. And it was all presenters like, you know, how can you, you know, possibly object to a multicultural society? You know, you're basically a monster. You're Enoch Powell.

You're, you know, you're beyond the pale. And, you know, this is a... The conservative view was supported by the majority of people. Still is arguably. Yeah, although that's kind of losing because, you know, just reality. You know, the thing with like diversity is once you have diversity, it's, you know, to boosts. irreversible because it will be so monstrous to reverse it. So it's enough and then like where does it stop?

I mean all these processes with progressism, there's no end point, that's the thing. You know, you can't just sign surrender papers and say, okay, it's over now, can we just move on to the next, you know, can we just get on with our lives? Okay, there has to be. I mean, that's the gay marriage. So gay marriage is a good thing. It's, you know, it's definitely defensible and conservative grounds. I wonder, would you have gay marriage?

and just end it there? Will it, again, marriage inevitably lead to, like, the trans stuff becoming really, like, extreme? I don't know. I mean, is it possible to end any of these changes at one point? And just say, that's good. And I don't want any more. I'm not sure it is, really. Do you buy into the argument that a lot of these institutions, like Stonewall did great work in the 1960s?

Well, let's be, let's be honest, gay people faced real oppression. I mean, Stonewall's from later, they were named after. 60s, 70s, 70s and all the rest of it. But they had their roots in the 60s, et cetera. Yeah, well, they're named after the Stonewall Rights. Yeah, I mean, there's no doubt about it. You know, every revolution, like, has good points, right? I mean, the French Revolution was, you know, very necessary.

The system had to change. You know, I would argue that, like, the heading thousands of people might have been a bit of an excess. That's a very English way of putting it in. I mean, yeah. Was Yerrhoff, a Soviet functionary, whose job it was to kill off all. the people in the purges said that when you chop wood, little bits will fly. I mean, I'm reading a book about the Russian Revolution.

I mean, I'd say there's probably not much that came out of that, but, you know, the system was rotten to start with. Yeah, there was loads that need, you know, change in society in the 60s. You know, I wouldn't argue about that. I just think sort of revolutions have in themselves a sort of no real endpoint. So it's, you know, it's inevitably just going to go more and more sort of, crazy. What about the idea that I think a lot of people are hopeful? And look, as you say, you, you were a conservative from birth. I'm not conservative, I think, temperamentally. I don't know

about Francis. I think you're becoming conservative, aren't you, mate? I'm going to be on it. Yeah, I think I am. Yeah, there we go. He's still pretending. Well, I mean, I say, as you get older, you just can't help him. No, but the thing is, the thing is that what's happened is Francis was always on the old school left. It's just the old school left is now conservative. Yeah. So that's, yeah, right? I mean, that is definitely true. But a lot of people like me who are simultaneously not conservative, but also deeply, deeply against this progressive ideology, the hope I have is, as you alluded to earlier,

that young people rebel against their parents' generation, essentially, and now the children that are being born now are from basically this point forward going to be born to millennials and younger people, right? So that... If there are any children, I mean, which is another issue with a... Tushé, my friend. Tushé. But those that are, those that are being born, they are going to be, they're going to be

looking at their parents being useless and talking about adulting and looking at that going, actually, we need to go full trad. Don't you think that's going to happen? I think it may be. I mean, if you've got a liberal mindset, you don't like sanctimonious people telling you off saying you can't do that. And then, you know, inevitably those people now... That's my issue with this whole ideology.

I mean, as a kid, when I went to church, I really didn't like the sort of, the sanctimonious old people who sort of say, look, I'm better than you. The whole point is, it's very, like, a miserable Irish Catholic church and just, the whole point is to look, is more miserable, and I'm better than you because I'm more miserable. You're smiling, like, you can't do that. And those, and that's what I sort of, I saw a lot of that amongst lefties that, you know, I'm taking this more seriously. The environment's more important to me.

I say racism or something. So I kind of get that. And so if you are of that mindset, then yeah, you probably will be a bit more opposed to it. I mean, I think with the, like the trans thing is really interesting because the trans thing, I mean, the argument that like a lot of feminists say, which I think is true, is that it's like a very, I mean, it's not as radical interpretation of sex, but it's also really conservative, you know.

So if you're a girly boy, then you must be really a girl. or if you're a very masculine, or gender atypical girl, you must be really a big boy. And people in the 60s would say, no, you're just gender atypical. You know, you're probably lesbian or gay, and that's fine.

You can just do it. Now you sort of have to have these kind of strict things. And also this kind of obsession with categorization and identity, which is like a very conservative thing. Like the conservative mindset and needs categories because that's how they sort of see the world. That's how they order it.

So that is a very sort of conservative thing. So if you don't like categorization, if you don't like the sort of forced kind of almost like semi-religious like order of pride, which is very like, you know, you must do this because this is what the community does, then yeah, you might turn against it. I mean, I think I don't think young people will be conservative. I think they'd probably be anti-woke, which is like more what you are, like a liberal anti-woke person, which there are a lot of people, you know, lots of people honestly will honestly say, you know, like, I'm liberal, but there's only one group of people who are basically like threatening my ability to sort of, you know, talk. talk normally. This is what a lot of academics say, sort of secretly, about, you know, liberal academics who say, you know, the only people who are bothering me who, like, make life difficult are the kind of like progressive sort of idea logs who sort of run the place. But no conservative saying you can't study that or you have to do this or something, you know, if they were, they were in power, they probably would, but, you know, they're not. So that's what I'm asking you,

do you think there will be a flip where that changes? Because I always laugh when people accuse me of being on the right because I'm like, I have almost no doubt that 15 years from now, I will be fighting against the right-wing, socially conservative, religious right,

as comedians like Bill Hicks and George Carlin were in the 90s. I have no doubt that there will be a point in my life. Those are the people that I'm opposing. That sounds very optimistic to me. Yeah. That'd be great. I think that is optimistic,

but you think that's not going to happen. I think, I mean, I mean, I think there might be a religious right in Britain that's powerful, but I don't think it'll be a Christian one. I think that's completely... Can I say that? Yes. Come on.

Let's explore that. I don't know. I didn't think there's going to be... I think once a religion goes into decline, I think there's almost nothing that can be done to stop it, to be honest. And I don't think there's going to be a religious movement. And I think without religion, you don't really get social conservatism because the kind of default, like, mindset, that means...

becomes utilitarianism. I mean, if you're not religious, then utilitarianism just makes so much sense that it's impossible to argue against, really. What is that? I just think it's... I wouldn't say it's necessary the best argument, but if you're trying to order a society, how else are you going to do it? I mean, if you're saying, like, you know, the gay marriage thing,

if you're a kind of traditionalist Catholic or Angling, and you say, well, marriage is a sacrament, it says it has to be between a man and woman. If you, the utilitarian, say, well, marriage is about, you know, loving each other and want to make a partnership, there's no utilitarian argument against it. Doesn't harm you. So, you know, there are so many different examples of, I'm trying to think, the move towards the utilitarian is basically just inevitable if you're not religious. So I just don't think you can have a sort of socially conservative movement without religion.

Yeah, I agree with you. And then, in fact, I don't know, you are not going to be facing some sort of, like, you know, council or Vatican indexed censors in 15 years. I reckon it would just be like the same woke people, but even worse. Well, there you go, guys. That's reassuring there. And even crazy a lot. But, I mean, we've always seen this throughout history, the ebbs and flows,

and it's never linear in that way. Right, yeah. You just think, do you think there's never going to be a pushback against this? It's just, it's going to be the new dogma forever, and we're just going to get more and more progressive. I don't know. I think it's impossible to predict the future, isn't it? I mean, people tend to predict what they want to believe.

I would love to think that the next generation, I mean, the only thing I, you know, I do lose to this book, is that there is huge birth gap between conservatives and liberals, and it's really opened up, it never used to be. So, you know, liberal societies produce more conservative people. I mean, in the 50s, I think in America, you know, the average liberal, it was like three or four kids each, and now it's like 2.2 kids versus one.

And the difference is, you know, if you're a liberal person in 60s, you'll probably still be basically pressured into getting married. by social forces. Well, now there's more freedom. Everyone can basically choose their own little niche. I think now it'll take a long time to have an impact. You know, we're talking about generations, and it's hard to say.

I mean, there are some different factors out there, aren't there? I mean, what is the Chinese influence on Western Sinaii going to be? I mean, is that... I mean, I'm pretty pessimistic, to be honest. I just think it'll be, like, unbelievably horrible. But that will definitely affect how, you know, the left and right will see each other, that conflict. That is a very good point because that is a conflict that we're not talking about and that we seem to have buried our heads in the sand about. Because when you think about a lot of our huge, you know, multinational companies, they're in hock to China.

Yeah. They all are, yeah. You know, money talks, isn't it? I mean, the Soviet Union was undeniably, like, force of evil, but it was also economically inept. So it was never going to really, I mean, once in the 70s, you know, Hungary and all. all these other countries were so in hock to the West for money. So once you owe people money, they basically control you. And you go back to the other sort of tyrannies we faced,

you know, Nazism was utterly evil, but it was inevitably going to lead to war very quickly, and we had to destroy it. Chinese communism, Chinese, whatever it is, I mean, that is in a way more dangerous because they are, we basically owe them, you know, huge amounts of money. And, you know, what's going to be, what's going to be, you know, done in exchange for that.

So yeah, that's something to be pessimistic about, isn't it? I've got a few more to... A few more black pills. A few more black pills. I started off as a kid with the red pills, now he's dropping all the black pills. Do you think Trump was right when he highlighted the threat of China? I mean, that's kind of universally accepted

amongst Americans, isn't it? There's anything they agree on Democrats and Republicans. I mean, I think in retrospect, I mean, it's great that, you know, there is a Stephen Pinker, side to me, you know, it's great that poverty has declined, you know, like every, it was every day, like a million people come out of poverty. But a huge amount of that was to do China's entry into the World Trade Organization 2001, which is probably like, you know, it wasn't

as big of 9-11, obviously, as an issue, but it did basically ship two million, you know, American manufacturing jobs. You know, it triggered the basic, the great awakening. The shift American society was basically down to this change. And then at the same time, computer. completely empowered China, made, you know, Chimerica is definitely a thing. And I don't, you know, they're not fools, the people who run the Chinese Communist Party. No. They will want something back from it. And, you know, slowly, slowly and surely, as British institutions are brought up by the Chinese,

and, you know, British public schools, British universities, British corporations. Eventually the thing is, you know, that guy who's criticising China and social media, so get rid of him. That will become a normal thing. And then I think, I think the kind of progressive taboos have almost made us more open to cowardness as well. This is why I'm slightly worried about. It's like if that becomes the norm, so, you know, well, I can't say something about like, you know, George Floyd or the Tranjism movement. You know, maybe I should just be cute quite about the Chinese Communist Party, you know,

because that's, at least they've got loads of money. So, you know, already there are lots of media people will be bought up for them. I mean, that's where the money is, isn't it? I mean, we've definitely got an oversupply of journalists who need money. So that would be, like, very easy to get. Speaking of journalism, I mean, that's in error, obviously you're involved with directly yourself, but I've been watching and commenting on the decline of the media for quite some time. We just had Glenn Greenwald on to talk about it. Right.

What do you think has happened to the media? Because there's quite a lot of evidence that the Great Awakening is actually something that was led largely by elite discourse. New York Times. The most evil newspaper in the world. I mean, without doubt. I don't even say that ironically. Yeah, their use of, you know, core kind of moralizing words is just massively increased. You can, you know, those charts have been done by various academics.

Yeah, I mean, it is a creation of a few journalists. I mean, the main thing is, obviously, the internet has emptied it. So it's just much cheaper to run these kind of, you know, cultural sort of articles than like a proper investigation or a news story that is really expensive, of journalism. There's just not the money here for it. So it's much easier to make these kind of commentary things. Our chairs, racists. Yeah, yeah, exactly. But I mean, but it's got so much worse.

I mean, you know, there's an article that other day saying racist slur at baseball game or something and it was like page and then you got to that paragraph 36 said, oh yeah, and it probably wasn't the N word, it's something else. What the point was this entire article about? Someone says rude words, hold the front page. Yeah, they've definitely got worse. And there is definitely

there's statistics on American journalists their political slant has hugely changed. I mean, they've always been more left-scentred because writers tend to be more left-fors' censor. But by the time that Barack Obama got elected, it was like overwhelmingly left-the-centred. And, you know, and public opinion is often

not accurate, but they have a rough idea of what's going on. So trust in the media is hugely increased. Decreased. Degrees, sorry, the other one. I think it was like, you know, it was like nine out ten Americans thought, you know, the media was basically trying to get Barack Obama elected.

Of course they were. They were openly biased about the whole thing. The thing about Trump was because Trump is like such like a comically bad guy. You know, like a really funny and evil person who says terrible things. He has this, he had this amazing ability to just basically draw out their extremism. He would say something stupid. Their reaction were just like, you just

revealed how mad you are as well. Like, you know, you know, the thought, leaders of the greatest country in the world, and you're utterly off your rocket, all of you. So some of them, many of these people are just so much more extreme than the rest of the population. Like, how did you end up in positions of power? It's amazing. But ironically, they need Trump. Because the moment he left power, all their ratings and they, you know, went through the floor. I know. They had a sort of dynamic, didn't they, together, the media in Trump. I mean, I think their source was turning against Biden now, aren't they?

It looks like that. Someone, yeah, I think someone tweeted out, they actually, like, did the transcript of what you're saying. I mean, he's clearly not mentally at its best. And it was just um, um, and he just, he's obviously, yeah. So, you know, they would never do that before, especially in the run-up to the election where they sort of made it clear that, you know, their job was to get Biden elected. Do you want to promote your business to an intelligent audience who don't need to know your pronouns to buy your product? Here at Trigonometry, we have over 250,000 subscribers across the different platforms and we frequent get over 3 million views a month. That's a lot of new customers for your business.

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What happened to the idea of the media holding the powerful to account? Wasn't that the purpose of the media? Um, I don't know. I think, yeah, yeah, obviously, I mean, it, I mean, yeah, isn't it in some ways. But I think when, you know, America is so polarised, isn't it? Once polarization hits a certain point, people don't really think about that. All matters is like winning.

All the matters is stopping the other side from scoring a point because it becomes so existential as in its stop. I mean, I kind of understand. Trump was like, it was kind of unnerving. You know, seeing this is like the man in charge of America and you'd tweet completely reckless stuff. So I can see why, you know, it was such an important point

to get rid of him. But yeah, I think that once that happens, happens. There, you know, there aren't that many people who would, you know, take a massive hit for their team if it was in the interest of democracy. I don't think we're as bad. I mean, I didn't, I think we could get slightly as bad. We could get worse, but I don't think we'll ever be. I don't think we can be as bad as America, just the dynamic of such a huge country that's so diverse and not just culturally, but like socially as well. What would you say to those people who go, look, actually, right, the old institutions are crumbling, but this is a good thing. This is important. This is necessary. They're no longer fit for purpose. Look, Unheard. Unheard has developed, you know, a huge fan base. Quillette, we've got Substack now,

where people can go and access the journalists that they like and trust and pay for them and subsidize them. Isn't that a positive? There isn't, I mean, the Substacks is a great idea in their sense that, you know, journalists can make more money, which is that a good journalist can make more money. And, you know, I think market dynamics. And in the market does reveal sort of essential truth about a lot of stuff.

You know, if no one's going to pay for your writing, then you're probably not a good writer. I think it is important to have like stuff like, you know, investigative reporting. A lot of the really bad scandals are still done by that kind of old-fashioned. So BBC, the Guardian. You know, I love, love, hate relationship with the Guardian because I think it's so annoying in some ways. But it's just it is such a great British institution. It's done, you know, amazing work down the years. I just think it's wrong about everything.

So if the Guardian's always in financial trouble, if the Guardian close, I think that's a really sad thing. I think that's a really sad thing. But, yeah, I mean, I mean, this is the same thing in the BBC. I mean, I think the BBC can't basically, it can't never stop its biases, but at least it kind of understands them.

And it does believe in a sort of an idea that it should be impartial. I mean, compared to CNN, which is just junk, which is so bad. It's like caricature. I'm kind of glad that we do have a sort of state institution and at least tries to be fair at least. It has some sort of idea.

I mean, I don't think that will last because if you look at the BBC website, which is written by the kids, it's just like, this is crap. I mean, this is what it's going to be like for everywhere in the BBC in 20 years time. Again, it's a generation of shift. It's so interesting you say that because that was one of the things that I, you know, having done quite a bit of TV now, it's one of the things that I never knew before I started being on. these programs and whatever television is basically made by 20-year-old yeah yeah i never realized that

almost all of the people you encounter up up to the level of like executive producer they're all in the early 20s yeah so i just think it's kind of inevitable that therefore that if all the researchers and all the people that are making most of the decisions because they are making most of the decisions they're the gatekeepers and those the that's the real power a lot of that them um which tangentially, stuff like, you know, A lot of this minute. Look at Sky. Sky was, you know, quite, it wasn't right wing, but it was kind of like an ITV, you know, it felt like sort of Middle England.

And now Sky is very, very, more great, it's much more like CNN. And that's a generational thing. People tell me that. You know, the young ones come and say, oh, you know, in the morning meetings, oh, we must cover this sort of classic progressive issue. And then you raise sort of a more, you know, delicate right wing issue. Maybe something's going on in Rotherham or something. and they say, no, no, no, I don't think that's appropriate for.

And, you know, those decisions made by the gatekeepers, you know, that's, you know, the generational thing is what worries me. You know, with that Harper's letter on that. It was about the trans thing, wasn't it? I think everything was about the trans thing these. And all these, you know, I really admire these old-style, centrist liberals. They believe in, you know, they believe in freedom of speech. They believe in this kind of, I think, slightly naive idea that if you all talk about stuff,

you'll come to a reasonable, you know, idea. And they believe also that their opponents aren't evil. which is like the central liberal idea. But, you know, look at that average age. It's all the people of Stephen Pink and JK rolling on these people. You know, I think great. The average age is like 65. While the average age is people, you know, denouncing them who wanted them on the chopping block.

They were like 28. It's like this is awful. Like this is our future is going to be. Do you know what I think? He's an optimist, mate. Yeah, he is. I'm going to be. I'm going to be stuck with me for like a week.

I do not envy your wife, mate. Yeah. Yeah. So let's get a little bit conspiratorial about this. Do you think that there is, look at this, yes, Wuhan. Let's get the joints out for the last. Yeah, absolutely. Do you not think there is an element of divide and conquer about the trans issue, about all of this stuff that we talk about? Because we're so focused on these particular issues that we've done, for instance,

see, you know, Priti Patel bringing in, you know, bills, you know, that are going to limit the rights of journalists, limits of people's ability to protest. So it's a classic diversionary distraction tactic, would you say? No, I don't think people are to think that through probably. I mean, I don't believe in conspiracy theories. I don't think people are capable, functional. Like, the government can barely function. Imagine the British government actually organising a conspiracy.

They're completely screw up. I just think these things happen independently. I mean, yeah, it definitely suits certain interests that people aren't focused on things, you know, like freedom, you know, bills involved limiting people's freedoms protest. or, I mean, the big one is, you know, 10, 15 years ago, it was all about, you know, the Occupy, wasn't it, about the 1%. Right. So, that's what I was going to say, because that is an economic issue. Yeah, I mean, I think it definitely suits big corporations to go, oh, look at gay rights, trans rights, look out how nice we are. Which is why they give money to BLM and, yeah, they'll give money they give to BLM, you know, without wanting to lie by anyone. I mean, a lot of people involved in these movements have done quite well. I mean, you might, you know, be a genuine believer in that. But if, you know, you know, if I was a. A.

to get a million dollars for my beliefs. I would definitely believe them more. And it's, you know, so like all these companies, I get at my Twitter, I get all these sponsored things from, all these like massive big banks, um, selling me about, you know, we must talk about diversity today. We really believe in diversity. This is great. Equality. And these are like the richest, like most sinister banks in the world. I mean, he's like, this is the man, right? They loaned the drug money. I mean... And then they talk about diversity.

I mean, I started the thing on, you know, the hypocrisy of work capital. And after a while, I got so many examples that just thought, I thought maybe I'll write a book about this. But just after a while, there are so many, it just seems that no one cares. It's just, it's like so absurd. It's like, it's just a humorous thing now. You know, it's like, Surrey, gay pride was sponsored by BIA systems.

They're like literally selling like... It's going to watch the planes to Saudi Arabia. It's actually like, see the kids in Yemen. You see the kids in Yemen get blown up. And literally, it's like, literally. It's all these, and all these companies, you know, promoting. And like, if you pay whatever 1% your corporations to pay off some person to say you're pro-diversity, that's like nothing. Like a match compared to a government saying, no, we're going to massively punish you with taxes, which is what like the orthodox left would like.

I mean, I've become, as I get older, I'm like more, I suppose, anti-business, just because, but I think it must be just like the culture must be the driver. because you people are horrible. Like, you're so cynical and manipulative. I'd much rather they were more like, we are more economically left wing than social. I mean, I think that's old-fashioned that poverty actually does matter. It's like a real issue.

In the same way that people's sexual identity is like much higher on the pyramid of needs, right? You need food first before you can start thinking about your higher spiritual needs. Yeah, I mean, that definitely, I don't think it's seriously, but it definitely,

it sort of incentivizes people to make that. Yeah. I mean, I worked very briefly in a strange career path, like working for a financial company, just writing stuff. I mean, it was weird. I mean, they're unbelievably intelligent people. Like, it makes you realize journalists are quite thick. I was easily the stupidest person, like by far. And, you know, everyone there was like pro-remain, for example, because that's definitely in their interests. But, you know, they would be quite liberal people, probably like more old-fashioned liberal. They're not like radicals. but they would accept. But it's easy for, easy for them to accept, like, progressive rule.

They could live with it. Because it's not threatening their financial interests. Of course. I mean, liberalism does drive. Economic and social liberalism do go together. There is a reason why Britain is one of the most liberal countries in the world. The city of London is the prime driver. I mean, Thatcher was the creator of the sort of, you know,

the younger generation liberals, liberals, because I think inevitably it kind of becomes more and more. stream until, you know, it's no longer liberalism anymore. Where were we going? Right. We were just like, I just getting depressed, mate. That's where we were. It's just for a piece of off, isn't it?

Sorry about that. But it's a good point, you, mate. We'll just take cyanide pills. Family dinners must be fun at the West House. Oh, yeah. I mean, my kids are going to grow up. I'm just, I've kind of kept off my real views to them a little bit. I don't want to, I want them to sort of be, to be liberal as their kids.

I want them to be, you know, enjoy your life. Go to all these demos. get stuck in it'll be fun, you know. And then when you're a bit older, you can, you know, realize it's all bollocks. Here's the red pill, here's the black pills. Yeah, exactly. Just enjoy itself, you know.

But, no, yeah, I keep back on. But that's a big worry. I don't know, I can't speak for everybody, but it's certainly a big worry for me is like bringing children into this world if you're describing it accurately. And then what are you bringing them in the world to? Well, I mean, I don't know.

I hear that a lot. It's more about the environmental thing. It's normally that. I mean, it's good, yeah, I mean, quite pessimistic about the future of England, really. I mean, not will depend on America, basically. We're basically dependent on America, taking the right cultural choices now, and not becoming more divided and more extreme and sort of more, I don't know, my basic, like, fundamental problem is liberalism is that

liberalism in kind of both sense of the world, is that it just makes people unhappy ultimately. ultimately. You just end up lots of really, kind of lonely, disappointed people who make really bad choices in their lives while you need kind of, you know, basic, not instruction, but you need you need kind of basic pathways.

This is what you're going to do unless you're really unless you really feel otherwise, you know, this is the normal thing that most people do in life. But, you know, the new order will just encourage people to make terrible, terrible life choices. I mean, the classic one to come back to this, you know, why don't you go and mutilate yourself so you can't have children later,

which is, you know, loads and loads of girls are getting this message from TikTok. Just like let out all your most, like, antisocial, disagreeable personality traits and just, you know, I mean, the TikTok thing is what really, that's the really depressing thing as apparent. That is like the pathway to such terrible ideas. It's just basically a complete moral anarchy in there. It's actually quite disturbing. So let's get into that. So what's going on on TikTok?

God, I feel like. Yeah, you are. Yeah, it is really, okay. One of the things you can't say that you'd probably get in trouble for is, like, girls tend to be like a bit more conformist than boys. And that's one thing Jordan Peterson says, and like this is, wow, you can't say that. It's like, it's blandly obvious. So teenage girls are particularly susceptible to ideas, to spread of ideas,

like memes that can spread because they're attracted. Social contagion. Circumtation. So, you know, it was anorexia at one point. There is still anorexia, self-harm and stuff. TikTok is just a complete world of that. You know, all these terrible ideas are spread. And, you know, one of the problems, you know, we have generally society is that no one wants to be the adult.

No one's to say, no, you can't do that. I'm telling you, no, it's not happening. Everyone wants to be your friend, and that can have extended to children. Oh, you must make the right choice in life. That's really not a good idea of children. I mean, I say as a teenager, I made terrible choices. I have no common sense, no real wisdom. I'm not particularly wise now, but, you know, you need people to have these kind of guides

to life. This is what you should do. This is how you should behave around people. And TikTok is just all sorts of rubbish coming. I mean, I think the Chinese do actually censor it, which is, or at least they sort of fix it. It's sort of pro-Chinese or what they want people to do. while the Western one is just anarchy. So it's just complete crazed.

I mean, I think that is also what the Chinese lesson will, to us in the future, with their sort of society is like, we have it ordered so you do certain things. I think that will appear attractive to some people who have enough of sort of the anarchy of the Western model. That's a bit of a side issue. Yeah, TikTok is just bad. It's really, really bad.

If I have kids, they're not getting a smartphone until they're about 30. Correct. Yeah, well, actually. That is, I mean, that's an example where, you know, I think there should just be, it should be banned for the under 16s. If all the other kids have, you know, smartphones, it's very hard to say to your child. You know, you're going to be the only one. You're going to be the weird kid. He wasn't allowed ITV as a kid.

You know, he wasn't allowed to watch grain chill or, you know, you're going to be that social outcast. It's very hard. Kids are conformists, basically. My kids are going to be social outkiss, no matter what happens. Listen, man, it's been an hour and it's flown by. There's one question I want to ask at the end, right? Just this one, you know. So you're saying society's going to hell in a handcot. But the thing that I've really enjoyed about this, though, it's presented in the sort of playful English unattached way. That might be ironic? I don't know.

Nobody knows. And it's quite enjoyable and it's a bit lighthearted, but we are all about to die. Yeah. But here's the thing. Isn't that the classic conservative position? Conservatives have always gone, society's about to crumble, everything's shit. And we'll be right eventually. It's like my granny always thought she was dying. She was proved correct eventually after 50, 60 years. There we go. Do you have any evidence that you're more accurate,

you're closer to, like, there was a point when your granny saying she was about to die was actually starting to get pretty accurate. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do you have any evidence to suggest that your diagnosis for society is actually a little bit more accurate than it would have been 20 years ago? I think if you went, I mean, I don't know, we were talking about it in the office. If you went back to 2001 and you explained our worlds to them, it would be pretty weird to explain the whole thing.

I mean, we're just going to Taliban one. There's a war in Syria, which Al-Qaeda were like one of the moderate groups. You know, the main issue is about the rights for people like me to go to women's toilets. That's like the cutting edge of like social justice. And by the way, the government's just locked you in your house for 15 months. Yeah, we didn't actually mention lockdowns. That's interesting. See, I forgot about COVID already. It's just, it's all over. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I don't want to say with doomed. I think things will just like continue as normal, weren't they for a while?

I mean, I can't predict more than 20 years. I think we're just slowly tried on. I don't think we're going to have like apocalypse. Yeah, are we? I don't know. Maybe climate change would actually do that. great so guys tune in next week for the end of the world interview Ed listen it's been absolutely pleasure I really enjoyed reading small men on the wrong side of history thank you and as always we've got before we do our questions for our local supporters we've got one more question for you

which is always what's the one thing we're not talking about but we really should be I kind of actually mentioned it it's the kind of TikTok and the influence it's having on teenagers my most pessimistic thing about Western society is that the victims of ideologies do tend to be young girls. And I think that's definitely the case. The uncertainty now about the sexual revolution, the biggest victims of that are basically teenage girls who are, you know, all the studies show that they are just more and more miserable and, you know, sort of confused about everything.

And, you know, if you spend any time online, that's clearly true of, you know, even after for their 18, in their 20s, seminism seemed to be, like, much unhappier than they used to be. And I, you know, I think that's sort of the end of liberalism, really. That's the sort of end product. That's why people have these kind of need for certainty, the need and use of order telling them what to do. So that sounds very futuristic, doesn't it?

We must have ordnong! But I think, yeah, that would be like progressive, you know, that's why the sort of people would turn. I think there is definitely things people will turn about against, like, sex positivity in the future. there will be some. I mean, I think you would talk about, will there be a reaction?

There'll be small as a reactions in certain areas, I think. There won't be a big Christian religious revival, but there will be certain areas where there's a lot of kickback while in other areas, you know, things will go on, I think. Ed, thank you so much for coming on the show. It's been a pleasure. If people want to find you, where's the best place to do that? Online, it's not your house.

Yeah, yeah. I guess on Twitter, just Ed West, or unheard, obviously. Just go to Unheard. You can find me. It's a picture of me somewhere. And where can they get the book? I guess Jeff Bezos is probably a thing.

There we go. We've all sold out. Ed, thank you so much for coming on. And thank you for watching at home and listening. We will see you very soon with another brilliant interview like this one or Orr Show. All of them go out at 7pm UK time, which is 2pm Eastern. Take care and see you soon, guys. We hope you've enjoyed this incredible interview.

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