TRIGGERnometry - "Hollywood Must Stop Lecturing Ordinary People" - Clifton Duncan

Episode Date: February 24, 2021

Classically trained theatre actor Clifton Duncan joins us in this fantastic episode. Join our exclusive community on Locals! https://triggernometry.locals.com/  OR Support TRIGGERnometry Here: Paypal: https://bit.ly/2Tnz8yq https://www.subscribestar.com/triggernometry https://www.patreon.com/triggerpod Bitcoin: bc1qm6vvhduc6s3rvy8u76sllmrfpynfv94qw8p8d5 Buy Merch Here: https://www.triggerpod.co.uk/shop/ Join the Mailing List: https://www.triggerpod.co.uk/sign-up/ Find TRIGGERnometry on Social Media:  https://twitter.com/triggerpod https://www.facebook.com/triggerpod https://www.instagram.com/triggerpod About TRIGGERnometry:  Stand-up comedians Konstantin Kisin (@konstantinkisin) and Francis Foster (@francisjfoster) make sense of politics, economics, free speech, AI, drug policy and WW3 with the help of presidential advisors, renowned economists, award-winning journalists, controversial writers, leading scientists and notorious comedians. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

If you're a last-minute gift shopper, then Instacart is your holiday rescue app this season. No more tracking packages, no more trips to the post office, and no more Christmas gifts arriving in February. Instead, you can just download Instacart to order gifts like beauty, tech, and gourmet goods from local stores and get them delivered in as fast as one hour. Plus, right now, you'll get free delivery on your first three orders. This offer is valid for a limited time. $10 minimum per order, additional terms apply must be 21 plus to purchase alcohol where available. Hello and welcome to Trigonometry. I'm Francis Foster.

I'm Constantine Kisson. And this is the show for you if you want honest conversations with fascinating people. Our terrific guest today is a classically trained professional actor and Broadway veteran. Clifton Duncan, welcome to Trigonometry. Hey, what's going on, fellas? How are you doing today? Oh, it's great to have you on, man. We've been looking forward to this chat for a long time. For people who don't know who you are before we get into the conversation itself,

Tell everybody, who are you, how are you where you are? What has been the journey that leads you here talking to us? Yeah, well, it's kind of funny because I'm not somebody who gets starstruck. I've spent the last few years working with famous people, but it is kind of, it gives me tingles inside to work with people that, or not work with, but to talk to people that I watch on the internet all the time. But yeah, you know, I'm a classically trained actor. I've been based in New York City for 15 years.

I moved there originally to attend, to attend conservatory training at NYU's graduate acting program, which is one of the top three. It's up there with Juilliard and the Yale School of Drama, or Jail School of Trauma, as they call it. And I got out about 10 years ago. I've been working at the top theaters around the country. I've been off-Broadway. I've been on Broadway and guest starred on several television series.

And for years, I've basically been living a double life. And it's not as though I'm some sort of hard, right, wing nut. It's just that I am not as enamored with the quote-unquote progressive train. I mean, I don't even know what that word means anymore. As everyone else in the industry seems to be. And I notice,

excuse me, I began to notice, especially after Trump's election. I likened the, I don't know if you want to call it the left or the Democrats in America, but it's like watching a corpse writhing in convulsions after receiving a bullet to the head. And I notice this, I want to say, stench of activism that's like, that's flooding different arenas. And it's not just the theater world, which, you know, people complain about Hollywood, but it's more concentrated in the theater realm.

But it's also in comic books. It's in video games. It's in all these forms of entertainment. And I fear that there is too much homogeneity and that they're shutting out voices and that what's going to happen is that people, especially now in an era where there's so much technology and there's so many things. competing for our attention where I think we're we run the risk of sliding into irrelevance and obsolescence just in our industry and then and risk alienating a lot of people and I think there's a cultural malaise that's going on and people can feel it you know that there's a sort of a cultural death going on but essentially started a Twitter

account a year ago and to start it I put my face to it and I'm just going to say what I think and and I've developed a strange little following, which I find kind of funny. And I actually had a fortuitous meeting with a young, beautiful lady named Carrie Smith, who you had recently on your show. And it was a time where there were so many things that were in crisis last year in America. And I just said, someone's got to do something. I'm really stressing out. I think, you know, I saw the way that, and I'm sure we'll get into this later, but I saw the way that just specifically, you know, the Black Lives Matter movement began sweeping through everything, including my industry. And,

And, you know, I'm glad that people like Matthew McConaughey and Isaiah Washington are sort of breaking out, but, you know, they have careers already. What about people who don't have careers? What about people who are one job away or who are still just trying, who are journeymen actors, you know, people like me who, you know, we work, but we're not household names, obviously. And there's, I just think people need to speak up. And, you know, there's a lot of artists, like, like, ever since I've been speaking that, people have been reaching out to me. And, you know, it can't just be me. But we have to, there's, there's. needs to be more variety. We're creative people. We're supposed to be expressive. And we, and we drive a lot of elements of culture. And right now, I think we're creating a monoculture and people are detaching themselves because of it. And I don't, that's bad for my industry, obviously. And I think it's just bad for the culture as a whole. That's my spiel. Well, yeah, and it's, listen, man, it's great to have you on the show because I feel like you're

part of a group of people who are trying to think for themselves at a time when that is the worst thing you can do from a career point of view, right? And that's why we love having people like you and Kerry and others on the show who maybe don't have a huge following, but have something really interesting and original to say. And it's interesting before I ask you the question, the point you made about journeyman actors. I always felt the same thing about comedy, even Ricky Jervais, who I've defended recently, who's a brilliant writer, comedian, et cetera. He always used to say, well, there is no problem with free speech and comedy, just say what you want. And then, you know, people like it, they like it. If they don't, they don't. Which is, if you're Ricky Jervais,

that's absolutely true. If you're a club comic, that is absolutely not true. Because as you say, your next gig, your next performance depends on, you know, the people in the industry, the gatekeepers allowing you that opportunity. But let's come back to this idea of leading a double life, because I think that's really fascinating. What has that been like being a Broadway actor, being an actor more generally, and having... you know, as you say, you're not hard right. I mean, you do look really racist, but... I was trying to hide it.

I have so much makeup on right now. I just, I can't... I can't conceal it. But you know what I'm saying? Like, just trying to think for yourself and also feeling like you're genuinely, you know, you're like in a different space where you're not allowed to think for yourself.

What's that been like? And what happens in the acting industry? Like, just stuff that people, ordinary people, wouldn't know about? Yeah, well, it's, you know, it got to the point, especially after Trump got elected, where, you know, I would be at an audition. And, you know, the casting director would be like, can you just, can you believe what, what Trump did today? I'm like, bitch, I'm trying to put this job. I want to work on CBS and pay off my student loans.

I don't give, I don't care about this shit. But, but, you know, marching back a little bit. I mean, my, my training and I take a lot of pride in my, in my training and my pedigree. And, you know, we learned, I was taught that curiosity and empathy are two of the cornerstones of the craft of acting. You know, the classic example is if you have to play Hitler, you know, you don't have to like the guy, but you do have to understand why he took the actions that he took. And when I see so many people who are calling themselves actors who are incapable of expressing either trait politically, you know, I have a problem with that. But just in terms of the everyday kind of thing, it's, you know, you're just, you're just,

in an industry where you're paid to be interesting, essentially, you have to shut a part of yourself down. And I have conversations with people on a one-to-one basis, and I can pick them out now because there's sort of a deadness behind the eyes. And I don't say that to joke. I mean, it's a real thing because you can actively see and sense people who are cutting off a part of themselves. And the irony, one of the paradoxes of acting is that even though you're using yourself, you know, you're using yourself in the service of other characters. So if I'm playing McDuff, who is the hero of Macbeth, aka the Scottish play, you know, there's a scene in the play, one of the central scenes where he learns that Macbeth has slaughtered his wife and his children. And you have to go through those emotions every night, but you have to find your own way.

You know, what is it that triggers these kinds of emotions, this kind of grief, this kind of sorrow in yourself? And if you spend years and years deadening yourself and deadening your emotions and not expressing in yourself and essentially lying to yourself, then you're not going to be able to lie truthfully for an audience, if that makes any sense. And it just, it kills your soul. It kills your artistic spirit.

You know that, and you're sitting in these rooms, these rehearsal studios or your on set talking to people. And me, it's not, and again, it's not, I'm a hard right conservative or anything like that, although, you know, I have, I do have my proud boys tattoo on my, on my left back. As I, you know, as I tap my right. You know, it's, but you hear the things that people say, you, you, you, you can tell that they've never bothered to engage with any sort of, any heterodox or, or conservative or libertarian thinking. And they just make these blanket statements. And at a certain point, you realize, you know, these people would not piss on me if I were on fire. And it's not, and again, it's not as though I'm dropping in bombs and talking about Jewish conspiracies and how women shouldn't vote. I'm just saying that there is, you know, men are not the same as women. And I think we should take that into account.

And if we keep ignoring that, we're going to keep imposing these things. Like there was just an example, someone was doing Othello and they tried to do a genderless Alfello. Well, one of the story elements in Othello is that, you know, there's a fraternity of men. It's a very militaristic play. You have these guys who are in the army and they've been through battle together. And any soldier will tell you that there's nothing like the bond between brothers on the battlefield. And part of the play, part of the tragedy of the play, is that,

that Othello's trust is broken and it devastates him. It leads to him murdering his wife in the last scene of the play. I mean, it's that intense. And if you don't understand the dynamics between men and women, if you try to ignore the dynamics among men and those kinds of emotions that can, you know, loyalty, brotherhood and what that means for those to be broken, you're going to dramatically blunt the potency of the peace. And I just think that in an industry where you're supposed to be creative and you're supposed to be interesting, you need to allow all kinds of opinions and views.

And if you're only coming from one perspective, I mean, I've been in a room so many times where I'm like, I'll give you an example. I was doing a show off Broadway and it was a revival of a, it was a pretty big deal. And it was one of those things where I said, well, you know, men and women are in the workforce for the first. It was set in 1947. And just me even saying that men and women being in the workforce together at the same time for the first time. and beginning to try to begin a dialogue from a rehearsal in a storytelling standpoint of how can we as actors activate this tension between the men and women

who are working together maybe for the first time. They're not used to being around each other. What does that mean? How do they navigate that? I mean, it's nerdy actor stuff, but it's the kind of stuff that we do, the kind of thought we put into what we do, so that when you guys sit there

and you wanna disconnect for a couple of hours, you can get swept away and wrapped up in it. But it became this thing like, no, women have always been working. I'm like, I'm not, I'm not insulting women. I'm trying to, to, you know, and that's what it is. You're pushing up against this orthodoxy. And I've been saying this for years. It's, it's a secular religion now. And if you, if you say anything bad, you know, whiteness is the original sin. Hell is the cis heteronormative patriarchy. Heaven is a feminist utopia. And God is a black,

transgender, quadriplegic, and a hijab. It's a strange religion. But, yeah. And you expressed that beautifully because I am a similar background to you. I went to one of these conservatories. I then taught drama for a long time. I love the way even the American actor is making fun of you trying to sound posh. It's great. Yeah, I went to the central school of speech and trauma, darling. Amazing.

I mean, we can bond over that in gin and tonics. It's show tunes. Yeah, exactly. The question that I wanted to ask, Clifton, is this. The actors that I love, the ones that I worshipped when I was wanting to do it, were people like Richard Harris, the Peter O'Toole, the Richard Burtons, the hellraises, the people who took life by the bulls and lived every moment of it. And then when you saw them on screen, it imbued their performance with such a life. Why is it we've now fallen in love with the conformists and the insipid? As artists, isn't that what we're meant to be? railing against? Well, that's exactly how I feel about it. I mean, I love Richard Burton, and you read about him the sort of life that he led and, you know, and these people who are so full of life and vitality, and I think part of the reason, you know, it's one of the reasons that you don't see a, you know, a Lawrence Olivier or something, or someone who's that dynamic, you know, either. It's, we don't have a culture now that has need for or produces these kinds of artists,

in my opinion, or and or, you know, I mean, I've been told oftentimes, you know, about my vitality and I enjoy being on stage. And I love filling a huge theater and just being, you know, big in so many ways. But also I recognize that increasingly I'm in an industry where just as a male, there is a, and then someone who's a proudly masculine male, you know, there's this a pushback and a lack of, consideration for what that means and the power of that. And so I feel like that sort of heat, that sort of fire that that we love in our favorite actors. I mean, it's, it's been sort of pushed out of the industry as it's been taken over by these other people who, and I don't want to say taken over, but, you know, because part of it

is just, it's almost an organic process in a way, just thinking of the types of people that are drawn to careers in the arts. But, you know, there's, I don't know if we have the culture. And then the irony is, then, you know, we keep hiring Australian actors or British actors or whatever who aren't maybe as, you know, I mean, we have our Chris Hemsworths, you know, who come over, our Henry Cavils, our Russell Crows and everything. And it's like, and I asked my manager, actually, and she did miss a beat when she answered. I said, why are we hiring all of these, why are these Europeans and these Aussies taking our jobs? And she was just, and she just said, you know, they're more manly. That was it, you know.

And it's, I feel like it's an open secret. And I feel like, you know, when you see actors like Jason Momoa enjoy such success, I mean, there's a reason for that. And I feel like what Hollywood figured out a long time ago is that men and women will pay, it's maybe partly biological, but I think also just pure economics where men and women will pay money to go see. people that they find attractive and interesting on the screen. And part of your attractiveness as a man doesn't have as much to do with your physical appearance as it has to do with, you know, what do you have going on inside and what kind of fire do you have? You know, are you defiant? You know, do you stand up for yourself? Are you funny? Are you smart? Are you quirky? And, you know, I think when you have an industry where increasingly these types of traits,

aren't valued and you and you have to constantly sort of censor yourself and so much about it and so much so much so much about what we do now is about being kind and as harmless as possible and I was taught that you know you want to be bold and dangerous you want to take risks in your art I mean that that's our favorite comedians do that all the best actors do that you know they they say outrageous things or daring things or they go places emotionally that you're like oof I don't I don't want to be there you know I'm glad I wasn't on set that day that might have been kind of awkward. But there's just not as much of a push for that. And I feel like audiences, even if they can't articulate that, I feel like they feel that. And that worries me. And the other thing that

worries me is the fact that whenever I watch certain programs now, more and more, I just feel that I'm being lectured to. Why does it art and entertainment have to be a lecture? Why does it have to be political? I mean, some of it certainly can be. And somebody... All right, dial down the white fragility. Come on. No, you can just, all you can hear, Clifton, on my white tears hitting the floor. I know, I know. But why is that? You know, well, it goes back to what I said about it.

It's more of a religion than anything else. It's an orthodoxy. I just had to start last night that Tyler Perry, who your countrymen may not be familiar with. He's a black American filmmaker and sort of mogul who began his career doing stage plays, what are called Chitlin Circuit plays, which, you know, they appeal to. a very specific demographic. And, you know, he had this character called Medea. You know, basically it's like the black mistout fire in a way, dresses in drag, sort of violent. And, and, you know, people have a lot of things to say about Tyler Perry. You know, I, you know,

I'm not as target audience, but I do appreciate his talent. And, you know, you can have nothing but respect for the, for the guy who, I mean, he's one of the few people right now. He's here in Atlanta. You know, he has a whole studio, movie studio that's operating right now during, during the time of COVID. And he's built, I mean, he's a billionaire. I mean, he's really forged his own path in the entertainment industry. But the thing about his place is that, you know, he's very, very Christian, and he's deeply religious. And so what you see is when you watch his plays or his films, not saying that your audience has to go and do that, but there's a point, there's always a point where the narrative stops dead in its tracks and the character either bursts into song

to sing about Jesus or some other character begins to talk about. about, you know, we need to just pray right now and praise God and this sort of a thing. And I feel like that's how people feel, you know, maybe on a subconscious level when they're watching their, you know, their favorite movie. And, I mean, prime example, Avengers Infinity War. You know, I love that movie to death. And there's that great scene when they're back in that climactic Wakanda battle scene where it's, you know, Scarlett Johansson and Denai Guerrera, who's a graduate of the school that I went to. is she's amazing. And Elizabeth Olson. And, you know, it's like the girls. And then they have, like, the female Thanos demon or what I can't remember what her name is. And in a way, you're like,

oh, snap, it's a catfight and it's a cool scene. And then you fast forward to Avengers Endgame. And everyone knows the moment that I'm about to reference where they're in that climactic battle with Thanos, like the world is ending. You know, everything is going bad. And then I forgot which character it was. It's one of the female superheroes, and she's like down, and they're like, she needs help. And all the female characters, you know, who are, they suddenly find themselves converging all in the same spot during this climactic battle with all of Thanos's, like, you know, henchmen and demons. There's just huge war going on, but they all find a moment to unite together and have this girl power moment where it's like, you know, she has help and it's all slow motion.

And people just watch it and they're like, oh, man, come on. It's just you, you've stopped the plot and the forward progression of the story to preach to me about how women are great in a manner similar to now we're stopping this Tyler Perry show to preach to the audience about how God is great. And I think that people, you know, if they want to be sermonized to, they'll go to church. You know, when I'm watching a Marvel movie, I want to be that weird adult in the back of the theater with his pot curdle up with his popcorn, watching a bunch of, you know, Pugh Pue and CGI and people in tight suits doing, you know, fantastical shit. I don't care.

I don't, you know, I don't care. I mean, you're talking about comic books. It's a medium that features aliens and animals, you know, and robots as their, as their main characters. So, you know, I don't think that the comic book going audience or the general movie going audience, you know, really is in the mood to or needs to be lectured to about how wonderful women are. I think a lot of them kind of feel that way.

And, you know, we're inhibiting our storytelling ability. and prowess by continuing to inject these sorts of preaching there. It's a great point. And the thing that makes some of these characters really fascinating, like if you take Marvel, like for instance, Tony Stark, or if you go back towards Shakespeare, it's the fact that our heroes are flawed. That's where the interesting thing is, that they have the heroic qualities, but they also have their flaws. Whatever hero it is, whether it's someone like Hamlet, who's, you know, filled with hubris and pomposity or whatever it may be. And it just seems that more and more, we've just got these archetypes that are constantly presented to us. Yeah, it's, you know, but they're

archetypes that aren't really tied to anything that we recognize as human. Exactly. That's exactly what I was thinking when Francis said archetypes because I was like, well, they are archetypes, but they have no resemblance to anything real, right? Yeah. So the archetype of masculinity and femininity that we are now being presented with, you know, that's the issue that you raised, has no bearing on how men and women actually show themselves in the world, right? That's the interesting thing here, isn't it? Yeah, you know, and it's, that's why it's just so, and again, I feel like audiences know that, and they, and they feel that, and they're not interested in it.

And, and it's also, in a way, it's, it's, it's sort of insulting to them, you know, there was a, there was a series that, that I auditioned for, and, you know, it was like this, this, a lead in a new, set in a space station, you know, And it was one of those things where, you know, surprisingly, all the positions of command were filled by women. And there was one scene that was a flashback where the character I was auditioning for was with his then partner, his spouse. And there's a scene where, you know, and it says, you know, in the script, you know, these are two people who are in peak physical condition. And so you have this man and this woman and they finish up whatever run they're doing and they start sprinting. And it's so, it's so hilarious because I'm reading this.

and I'm like, okay, they're sprinting, and I feel like I know what's coming. And then in italics, it's like, and she wins. I'm like, hold on a second. Hold on a second. Like I ran track in high school, or athletics, as it's called, overseas, where people can actually make money doing it. And I said, wait a minute.

Now, I know the differential. If you're a woman and you can run the 200 meter dash in under 22 seconds, that's world class. But if you're a man and you can't, and you cannot, And you run that same time, you'll get the doors blown off of you by high schoolers, you know. And so when I auditioned for it, I just pretended that I got a cramp or something like that because that's the only way that I as an actor can justify that I, that I am peak physical condition who, you know, who knows how to run and who is in shape and, you know, knows proper form and everything. There's no, I'm sorry, like, you ain't going to beat the girl's not going to beat me unless something happens.

And I'm like, and, you know, I've auditioned for things where it's like, you know, I'm a special, I'm a special. especially trained special forces agent, but somehow I lose in combat to my smaller female counterpart. And the irony of it is you begin to see how these sorts of, they begin to push so far in single directions that then these begin to cross over into weird areas for political correctness. So isn't it kind of strange that you, you know, you're so dedicated to female empowerment that you have this small white woman beating the shit out of a black man? That's sort of strange, isn't it? Isn't it, isn't it kind of weird that, you know, there's another show. Come on, brother. Don't stand on the way of progress. A small white woman beating up a black guy

is exactly what progress is all of that. You've got privilege and you need to acknowledge it. We, we've come so far. But, you know, but there's another example of, you know, there's a show. It's one of these sort of body positivity thing. And I can go on a rant about, you know, about that for a long time. But, you know, it was like I was auditioning for it as this black, British, you know, fit, you know, handsome guy who wanted to really, who really, really wanted to have sex with the, the female lead who was this, like, overweight, you know, white woman. And, you know, and I see what they're trying to do. I know what they're, I know the message they're trying to send. But again, me as a, as someone watching this, I'm like,

okay, if you're a big, tall, sexy British guy, you're going to be slaying all kinds of American pussy. You're not going to, like, wait up for, you know, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for this, I mean, so if people can see that. But he is very problematic. Because you have to be real. You have to be honest. It doesn't, you know what I'm serious though? Because it doesn't take away from like, you know,

like I appreciate that human beings are vastly adaptable and multivaried species and that not everybody fits into, you know, traditional boxes or whatever. And I think that's cool. It's just that don't Don't tell Don't try to get me to lie Stop getting me to lie about this shit Because it denigrates the work

And it's insulting again to the audience Because they can see it as well And just stop lying And they're not watching it Look at the ratings for shows like Doctor Who Or Supergirl or Star Trek or Star Wars You know these franchises are now losing money And it's because people are watching these things

And they're saying this is not true And even though you say, well, it's Star Wars, Star Trek, or whatever, it's science fiction. But yeah, the reasons that those stories work is because they are rooted in things that we know are true. It's why we still do Greek plays, we still do Shakespeare, we still do Chekhov because they're rooted in play and human truths that we know. And, you know, and it's not that you can't tell stories, you know, from an alternative point of view. There was a play that was recently done at New York City's Lincoln Center, which is one of the most prestigious theaters here. And I can't remember the name

of it, but it was set in Uganda. The main characters were gay. And if people don't know, I believe it's still criminal to be homosexual in Uganda. And the play was this really tense, suspenseful piece about how these two central characters, these two men, they're in love and they have to hide it, but there's all this pressure from the government, from their families, you know, and it's a really taught drama. You know, like, we want, but it's rooted in this thing of like, okay, people trying to be themselves and try and they're in love.

We want to see people in love, but then how do they fight off all? all these oppressive forces. What's going to happen? These people are in danger. Are they going to make it? That's what we want to watch. We don't care if they're gay or not. We don't care if they're trans or not. There's a film called Pariah that came out years ago. It was a coming of age story about a young black lesbian in a New York City, you know, and all the familial turmoil and discovering herself and finding herself that we've all went through because we've all been through puberty. Or a Gun Hill Road, the coming of age story by a young Latino transgender who's going from male to female. It's the same sort of thing, you know, awkward love scenes. She's trying to find herself and, you know,

and date and figure out who they are. These are things that we can, that we can all watch and all key into, but I think they, I think people are so stuck on this idea that I have to put this message in there and teach people that, you know, it's like, no, just don't teach me. You know, don't, don't, the classic saying is, don't tell me, show me. Just show me. Look, I spend a lot of time telling you what's wrong with the world. So let me tell you about something that's actually right. Sleep. specifically getting more of it, better quality, the kind where you wake up and feel like a human being, rather than someone who's been thrown down a staircase.

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trigger and enjoy Babel. And it's a great point because there comes a point where they put this type of messaging in and it becomes so patronizing that it actually becomes offensive. I think the shot, I never watched it, but I read a lot about it, was called Hollywood.

and it was sort of a woke reimagining of what Hollywood was like during the Golden Age in the 50s. And they had this sort of reimagining of Rock Hudson who was a closeted gay man and was the first celebrity to die of AIDS. And people who were close to him actually got very upset about it

because they were like, you're tarnishing his legacy. By saying, oh, this, you know, woke reimagining, you're not understanding the struggle that he had and the fact that he could never be honest about who he was. To the point that it actually becomes, offensive because you're whitewashing his life and his existence. Yeah, yeah. And just that story, you know, of course, I want to see that movie. What is the psychological toll on a Rock Hudson

of having to, having to hide who he is? I mean, you know, to remain in the closet, as it were, as many people politically do right now in the industry. Another example I think of is it's a wonderful life. You know, it's one of my favorite movies when I first saw it. I mean, I ugly cried for about an hour afterward. And come to find out that Frank Capra, who made the film, is a conservative Republican, which I had no idea when I was watching it.

And, you know, I'm an atheist, but I'm sitting here being deeply moved by this film, which starts out, the opening scene is angels talking in space. The pivotal plot moment is a guardian angel comes down and pretty much saves Jimmy Stewart's life. And I'm like, how many other It's a Wonderful Lives are we keeping out of the industry

and how many experiences are we robbing potential audiences of, you know, these kinds of catharsies by instead saying that, you know, we have to teach these people how they're supposed to be. No one goes to watch the movie to learn how they're supposed to be. That's not my job. My job is to entertain so you can kind of sit and forget the drudgery of your life for a little bit and, you know, laugh, you know, or be amazed or astounded or something. Clifton, I'm curious to ask,

change Tackett a little bit and coming back to the industry itself. What is it like being black? And what I mean by that is... Well, I mean, that's a great fucking question. Can I just say, when he asked that question, I want Anton the producer to edit me out. I don't want to be associated.

Hey, I just want to know what it's like, man, the lived experience. No, but seriously, you know, the reason I'm asking... You try to have, Turkey. The reason I'm asking... asking is that, you know, in the comedy world, like, I would find myself where in the space of 24 hours, I would be discriminated against for being dark-skinned. And then later that day, I'd be having a conversation with somebody in the comedy world who'd be like, well, yeah, I'm sorry, we don't need any more straight white men like you, right? So there's all this, like, tokenization

that's happening. Did you find that when you were working, that more was made of your race than than you made of it, frankly. You know, I think so. And, you know, I've been thinking a lot about this in terms of how, you know, I mean, the irony is I did not really think of my race until I began acting. And if I may, you know, I talk a little bit at length about it. Go for it. My journey with this, you know, I first went to grad school and,

It's a three-year program, and that first year I was very obsessed with. Hey, did I lose you? You guys are frozen? No, we're here, man. No, we're here, we're here. Okay, maybe it's just on my end. Francis is just desperately trying not to be racist. So he's frozen in space.

He doesn't want to say or do anything. He's just that white man face about to say something. It's like pink on the cheeks. He's like, it's the white gaze. I'm looking at him. But, you know, my first year, you know, I, I, I, I, I, was very obsessed with this idea that, you know, I mean, because I sing and I rap as well. And I was like, I don't want to be the black guy in class who sings in raps. That's so stereotypical. You know,

I'm smart and I'm articulate. And, you know, and so it became this thing where I was trying to prove to everyone else in a weird way that I'm not who I am. And over a certain period, I had this experience at this prestigious summer theater up in the Berkshires. And, There was a point where I said, you know what, if other people cannot see me as anything other than a black man, that that is their problem. I'm a human being first. I'm not my demographic or whatever label you what you might assign to me. And it was sort of driven home to me, like this last night I'm there and I'm in this dorm room. And, you know, there's a bunch of white people that are, you know, that are gathered outside, singing around a bonfire. And I'm like, you know, if you got a bunch of white folks together, like somebody's going to have a guitar and there's going to be a bonfire bill probably.

And I'm sitting here in my room just like, man, they don't understand me. They, you know, they don't, you know, I'm a black man. They don't really get me. And I said, wait a minute. I'm sitting in here by myself feeling like a loser wanting to jump out the window, you know, head first. They're having the time of their lives. You know, I realize that I'm the one who's putting these barriers up. I'm the one who is presuming their hostility to,

me. So then I went out there and when I joined them finally, they were so excited and it was just a great time. And that was a big lesson for me of, you know, this idea that, you know, the world is out to get me and that, and that other people are obligated to just accept me as I am as opposed to me coming halfway. You know, maybe I could learn about your culture. You know, maybe I can learn your favorite Beatles songs or your, you know, or Bob Dylan and expand my repertoire. And I can tell you about, you know, a tribe called Quest or Talib Kuali or something like, oh, you can let's be where. I mean, they're already listening to that, you know, white people love these people. But so that was that was part of the evolution.

And slowly I began to evolve from worrying a lot about what black people in the audience might think of me to just not giving a shit. Because prime example, I played Caliban in Washington, D.C. And, you know, Caliban, for those who don't know, is a slave. He is explicitly a slave in Shakespeare. Spears the Tempest. And, you know, my costume, I literally had chains on me, you know what I mean? And I knew going in like, oh, boy, this is going to be really interesting. But I was the one in the rehearsal room who was like, yeah, man, like whip me around, throw me around, like do whatever you

want, like abuse me. Let's go for it 100%. Everyone else was very afraid of it. And then later on, people who, you know, people who don't know the plot, Caliban, you know, this pitiful slave is, you know, he meets these two wacky characters who are basically clowns and he, ends up worshipping them as like gods to save them, essentially. And so I'm like kissing this white man's foot on stage. We had high school matinees where you had these black kids from D.C., Washington, D.C. public schools who were just like, oh, and I'm like, you know what, man, but that's in the play. That's what the script is. And I can't stop whatever baggage people are going to bring to it. And people still complained, rather than me playing one of the great roles in Shakespeare and doing

it well, you know, I have the receipts. You know, people complain that I can't believe that they had this black man here in D.C. playing a slave, ignoring the fact that there was another black male actor in the cast who was playing the son of the king of Naples, who we thought was dead, which means this nigg is now the king of Naples. He's royalty. He's royalty. And they're like, but he's like, you know, there's a scene in The Tempest where Prospero, the main wizard, you know, forces this prince to, you know, just do menial slave labor, just to test, you know, he is and, you know, because he wants to court off his daughter. You know, it's one of those old Shakespeare plays. And I'm like, you have this black man playing a slave and this other black man

who's also doing slave work. I'm like, he's the king. He's the king right now. But you're ignoring that because all you see is black people. So I, you know, I just, I, I release myself from this pressure to be a certain type of way for an audience. But on top of that, you know, there's the question of skill set and this idea of this myth that, uh, uh, this myth that, uh, uh, you know, what black men only get seen for certain types of roles. And I'm thinking to myself, okay, well, I speak a certain way. I learned how to do Shakespeare. I learned how to handle, you know, complex texts.

And those skills, they fan outward. So if you know how to do, if you can work your way through Hamlet or Symboline, one of Shakespeare's later plays, which is really fucking weird, you can pick up a piece of legal jargon from a procedural or a medical procedural and activate it and make it interesting, you know, And so when I hear people come to me, be like, man, black people, you know, they're not getting seen in these roles. I'm like, well, you know, have you worked on your skill set? And, you know, have you made yourself more hireable? But I found myself in this weird position now where I really feel like a diversity hire. And it's not because I have the chops and the experience. You know, I could, I can do Oscar Wild. I can do Shakespeare. I can do Chekhov. I can do August Wilson. I can do on camera work. I can do a Broadway musical. I have these skills and this versatility,

but you're only hiring me here because you wanted to have a, you wanted to have the picture of a black person on stage. I was working on a show that was supposed to go to Broadway where my character was a humpback. And I totally, you know, Francis will get this. I totally went like Richard III on. I was like, you know, ah, you know,

and the director was like, maybe not so much, but, you know, maybe it's more psychological. And I said, okay. And then he said, and he goes, well, you know, Clifton, he was a British. I'm going to do a really bad accent right now. But he just said, he's like, it might be that in this era,

people might view your skin color as a handicap. And I was like, what? What are you talking about? You know, it's this weird, and they chased me so hard for this role. And at that moment, I began to realize, oh, wait a minute. So they have my friend who's playing the servant maid, who's a black woman, who's a very dynamic performer.

And she's down here in Atlanta with me, actually. a Broadway caliber performer. But then you said, holy shit, we have a black woman playing the maid. I guess we better have a black guy to play the master of the estate. And in that moment, I felt like, okay, you know,

I mean, at the time, I mean, I made my Broadway debut in a play called, you may have heard of it called the play that goes wrong. And I'm doing... Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, so it's a British farce. It's a British farce, right. So they...

See, darling, I do know, theater. Yeah, see, there we go. You're just as gay as I am, Francis. But so they brought it over to Broadway, and they replaced the original British cast with an American cast. And so I'm doing every night, I'm literally, you know, doing upper crust, you know, standard British. I'm doing the accent. You know, it's, and I've had so much practice doing it. And yet it's not that I have that skill set, that I, that I, that I, that I, I have this sort of dramatic darkness and I have this, you know, baritone voice and I have a great blend of vulnerability and, and danger and humor that I can bring into a role. It's, you know, it's this black guy. It's not that I have years of experience and dedication in this.

You know, and again, I say I take pride and, you know, people look down on actors and I understand why. But, you know, there are those of us out there who just genuinely enjoy what we do and we enjoy performing for audiences. And there's a process and a craft that goes into it. And when you study for a long time to become good at it, a great personal and financial sacrifice, by the way. I mean, I could be married by now. I could have children by now. But we both wanted to be actors. And so we decided to go our separate ways.

I've given up so much. And for you to tell me that I'm only here, you know, because you wanted somebody who's, I mean, you know, there's another show that they wanted to see me for Broadway replacement, the musical. And the conversation, as was relayed to me by my manager, literally was, we should have a black guy playing this role. So the consideration isn't, oh, here's someone who could bring something dynamic and

interesting and fresh to this romantic lead. No, it's time for a black person to have this. Here, take this, darky. You deserve this. Here's a pat on the head. And that's how it feels. So it's this very weird thing where it's like, I have the skill set and the craft and the chops to do these things you're asking me to do.

but I feel like in many ways I'm only being asked to do these things so that white progressives can feel better about themselves. And that's, it's really condescending, as you might imagine. Yeah, I can certainly get that and why it'd be utterly infuriating. The one aspect of this whole argument, where I have sympathy with the progressives, is when they talk about stories coming from, you know, different people, different voids.

whether, you know, it's meant, you know, from a female writer, black writer, trans writer, whatever it may be, stories that we haven't heard before. Because I think having like, for instance, a black mermaid in the Little Mermaid is tokenistic and patronizing, but having a different voice with a different point of view, telling a different story, I think there's definitely merit in that and possibly something we haven't seen enough of. What do you think? I mean, I feel the exact same way, you know, and that's, and that's a different way. I mean, that's That's why, you know, I'm saying you don't need to preach to people. I think that, you know, again, I go back to films like Pariah or Gun Hill Road, or there was a more recent one by a filmmaker named Greta Gerwig called Lady Bird, which as I was watching it, I realized I've never seen a coming of age story told from a woman's perspective.

And, you know, and it was so refreshing and enlightening for me to see things from that perspective. And my attitude is if the storytelling is good and the storytelling works, you know, please, like, we're always looking for something new and interesting. And we just, we, I, it's saddening to me that people feel that they're so hated and they're, you know, especially now in an age where, I mean, you can go to YouTube and you can watch videos that have millions of views of a guy who trains mongooses and dogs to catch rats. and you can watch that for hours. You know, like we, if it's interesting and compelling to us, we will watch it. And you, I just feel as though you maybe can't expect to reach a huge audience if you're going for more niche topics. But I don't think there's, I also don't think there's very many people who are going to, who are actively saying, well, I don't want to hear trans voices. I don't want to hear this.

I don't want to hear that. I mean, I think people, even if they think it's weird, and that is something that you have to kind of deal with, you know, people want to be entertained. They want to be shown something new. And I think if we do that from that perspective and again, rooted in something that is that is recognizable to us as human truth, then you'll get a lot further than not, I think. I don't know that really answers your question, but that's just what I think off the top of my head. Yeah. It's an interesting point, Clinton. And there's something you mentioned right at the top, which I'd like to get into in the sort of last quarter an hour that we have together, which is you referenced a cultural death and a cultural decline. And this is something that I've been thinking a lot about over the last couple of years and sensing it. It's a feeling more than, you know, I'm sort of becoming very woke as I talk about it because it's all about how I experience things. But that I'm not like, I haven't been to the cinema for years.

now. I used to have a card that allowed me to watch as many movies as I could in a month, because that's how much I love great cinema. I haven't been to a movie theater, as you guys would say, for years, because every time I look at the trailers or whatever, I'm not seeing anything that interesting. It's very, very rare for me to see something that's been made in the last few years that I really like. And everything I look at, whether it's literature, whether it's comedy, there is a decline happening. I think it's very difficult to argue that there isn't. There's still great stuff coming out, but it's increasingly more rare. What do you think that is about if you agree with me that it's happening? I mean, it's a very, it's a very difficult

thing to kind of break down. But I do agree that there is, I mean, even when I go back to Marvel, you know, I am someone who really, really enjoys these movies, but I also realize, that these are adaptations of stories that are decades old in many cases. There was that graph, sorry, before you continue, there was that graph recently, wasn't there, where literally like 70% of the movies that have been made in the last five years are the remakes or sequels. So, I mean, you know.

The creation of new storylines is just so limited. Yeah, and I wonder if part of it, I wonder if part of it is, again, this ideological homogeneity within the major sectors of the industry that is that is preventing fresh ideas from bubbling up to the surface. I think maybe that's part of it. I think part of it also is the advancement in technology in a weird way. It is amazing to see Thanos on screen and you can see, you know, if you look closely, like stubble on his hair and on his chin from when he hasn't, you know, shaved in a couple of days. And it's such a great detail. and the CGI work is so amazing, but at the same time,

I can go back and watch The Empire Strikes Back. And the practical effects in these films, I think, is something that helps draw you in more. And I see this with music as well. It's so highly digitized now. It's so heavily produced and it's so electronic that it's sounding less and less like a human being. If I look at comic book art, you know,

so much of it is digitized, and you can't see the scratch marks or the brush, strokes or whatever that you might see on an oil painting or something like that. So I wonder if part of it is technology advancing so to the point where we are, we're sort of disconnecting from what it means to be human in a way, or sentience, maybe. I mean, John McWhorter put out a piece in the Atlantic where it's oddly enough, I thought the most salient part of the essay was, was what he spent the least amount of time on, which is the alienation of modern life.

You know, as we become more connected, we also become more distant in a weird way. You know, when I was a kid, you played, you know, Nintendo or Famicom or whatever it might be. And, you know, you went over to your buddy's house. You played Mega Man or Double Dragon or whatever. And then you got bored and you went outside and you skinned your knees and got dirty. Now you can play with your friends over the Internet and you don't really have to meet up anywhere. there's so many forms of entertainment where we can just be, you know, in our phones and not really connecting with each other. I think it goes back into what we're saying about, about archetypes

and this sort of new orthodoxy where, you know, it's all about being harmless and all about treating others with kindness, which entails, you know, on one hand, it's great for civilization and social order, but at the same time, you know, maybe it goes too far and that we are tamping down things about ourselves. I mean, you know, we, the sex and ourselves, the danger, the violence. We're so dedicated to being good that we're forgetting what's interesting, maybe. And on top of that, I think culturally there's this shift that is, you know, I'm going to bring up the M word. I almost said the N word.

That's not the right thing. Well, well, nihilism. That is an N-word that I feel like is applicable to this sense. And there's a great, I mean, and I wish I were more articulate about this. I mean, there's so many things that I like to think about. But I don't know if we, maybe we're so comfortable that we're so, that we in a weird way are removed from what it means to actually live. And this also kind of, it folds into the response to COVID for me in a lot of ways as well. you know, how can people be so, how can people be so callous about throwing away first dates or, or hanging out with your buds, or, you know, playing with your kids in a park?

You know, these things that make it valuable to be alive while we're, while we're here, shuffling our, you know, a couple of hours on life stage. there seems to be a disconnect between what really makes us alive and vital and and preserving what that is. And maybe part of it is because we're so dedicated now to breaking all these cultural norms that we're forgetting what these norms are rooted in in the first place. I mean, I really don't know. I wish I had a better answer for that. But I do feel it.

And I sense that a lot of other people feel it as well. They say we don't, they either say, we don't want these reboots or they're saying, I don't, you know, I don't watch movies anymore. I don't watch TV. I mean, I'm in New York City. I have friends in, you know, these hit shows. I don't even go to see shows anymore because I feel like they're just, I felt like they were making shows for themselves to please their audience.

But then they turn around and say, well, why can't we get more subscriptions? Why can't we get more people coming to see our shows? You know, I just, I don't know. I'm not making a clear point, but I feel like we all feel it. I mean, I'm with you, Constantine. It's just there's something that is amiss. and it makes it difficult to be optimistic about the future sometimes, to be quite honest. Well, listen, you've been very articulate, actually, and I didn't want to interrupt you by

reassuring you that you're articulate because that would definitely be racist telling black man that he's articulate. But listen, what I wanted to ask you before we get to our last question is, first of all, I want to thank you for coming on the show. And I want to say that, you know, I think it's so important for people like you to think about these things and to speak about these things. And I hope that you get into, in addition to the acting, which I hope you get lots more of, you get into talking about stuff as well.

You're looking very skeptical about the possibility of you doing more acting, but I do hope it happens. Yeah, I don't know at this point. You know, every time I hit the tweet button, I do so with a bit of, I live with like this chronic low-grade paranoia and anxiety, you know, and I just,

and I feel like I shouldn't have to feel that way. Because again, I'm not out there saying that, you know, I mean, I'm not out there saying extreme things. I'm just, you know, saying what I think. But, you know, I tweeted out the other day that I am moving into content creation. I have to get, you know, all my gear set up and everything and move into this new realm. You know, I don't think there's enough performers who take advantage of these kinds of technologies as it is. But, you know, but it's also difficult. I just, as much as I try, I just, I can't shut up about this stuff.

It's really important to me. And I don't know why. I just don't know why, but I can't stop talking about these things. I see this stuff. And I just want to talk about it. And it's gratifying in a way because I have artists who reach out to me privately now who are saying, you know, thank you. And people who are in L.A., people who are in New York, they say thank you.

But they say, you know, but I can't speak up right now. And, you know, and I sort of understand how people feel now when they say, when they say that they feel that they have a little less tolerance now for people who are afraid to say anything because at a certain point you're like, look, I understand you're afraid, but what's worse? You know, you lose your career or your job or, you know, I mean, you can find another one or that you keep allowing this to continue. And there's long-term damage that we're not seeing right now. But that, but that is. but that's accruing. You know, I just, I don't know what's driving me, to be honest, but there's just something in me that doesn't, that just can't stay silent, especially during times like this. That's why. Thanks for having me.

No, but that's why we wanted to have you on the show, because I think when people as articulate and who think as carefully about these things as you do want to speak, that has to be encouraged and it has to be supported. So I thoroughly recommend everyone to go. follow you on Twitter so that whenever you start, whatever it is that you start, the people can follow that and engage with it because, you know, it's been a brilliant interview. The question I really wanted to ask before we get to our last question is, is there anything you wanted to add? Because I have a sense that you might,

you might have something to add to this conversation of your own. Well, in what capacity? I mean, there's... I don't know. I just have a feeling that you might have something to say. Well, follow me on Twitter at Clifton A. Duncan or on Instagram, my Clifton Duncan online. But I think that we are, there's more of us out there than we know. And I think that people who are afraid should take heart and be courageous and say, you know, I'm not taking this anymore and don't allow yourself to be bullied. you know, I'm somebody who I don't really view myself as this huge, you know, courageous person. I have people who are calling me that or I had someone on Twitter say, you know, you're,

you're one of my favorite thinkers right now. I'm like, if you're relying on some, you know, no name actor to be a great thinker, then we have serious problems right now. Well, you're not wrong. We do have serious problems right now. Well, we do. And I have a really hard time. watching, watching what I feel is the destruction of just everything that makes being human. Human. You know, everything that, we're in this strange time now, where people are completely incapable, it seems, of looking at problems from a wide perspective or taking the long view of things.

and I try to think of how, how, how, what I can contribute and, and where I fit into all of this. And I think as an actor and as an artist, you know, and frankly, I mean, I have a diverse, my friends are actually diverse in terms of their opinion. So I know where I sit. And I, you know, I have friends who lean more to the right of me who, who make fun of me for being a bleeding heart. And, and I think that my bleeding heart and my openness is one of the reasons I feel like, like I'm a more liberal-minded person. But it's also why I have sympathy, for instance, for people who voted for Donald Trump. And, you know, people, I mean, people lost marriages. They've disowned family members. They've cut off lifelong relationships.

And the same thing is happening with COVID. I was talking to a friend yesterday who's in California right now. And if you're in New York or if you're in California, you have no idea how much more close to normal life is in places like Atlanta where I am, right? now. And there is this divorce from, I'm just been really shocked to see the number of people who said, yeah, we don't need to socialize four years. It's fine. We don't have to be human. We don't, you're depressed. You know, you're beating your wife and your kids. You know, you have alcoholism, whatever, you're dealing with that, whatever. But we have to stay safe by killing other people in other ways, you know. And the, the,

I go back to curiosity and empathy as the cornerstones of acting, but also I think we need to return to those sorts of things just as human beings and as society. We need to have more curiosity about the other people. And it's astounding to me because when I talk to people and, you know, I mentioned someone like Thomas Sol and, you know, they shut down. They say, I'm not going to even engage with this. I'm like, well, you really might want to read what he has to say because it might make you think differently. And it's so exciting to, you know, see people like Jordan Peterson, who's inspired me to go on this intellectual journey. I feel like I'm playing ketchup in so many ways.

I'm reading these Russian authors. I'm reading Jung. I'm reading Nietzsche now. I'm, you know, or the conservative commentator, Victor Davis Hansen, who's a classicist, who now has me reading Homer and going back and doing all the things that I should have done in my public education right now. And it's exciting to me. And there's so many things flooding through my mind.

And I can contribute all of these things to the work. that I do and what I create. But there's an active effort to shut out all of these things. And I'm like, how can you do that? Like, my life is so much more rich and exciting now and there's so much more interesting people in it. Just because I'm on this journey. But I would never be on this journey if I wasn't a more curious person. And if I didn't have empathy or try to have some kind of empathy or put myself in the shoes of the other person, which is what I'm paid to do, essentially. And, you know, it's just, there's a death, there's a lack of curiosity and a lack of, of this thirst and hunger for ideas by people who are telling me that I'm ignorant and uninformed,

that I should be educated. You know, it's like, I don't know if you're the dumbest, smart people or the smartest dumb people, but I'm sorry, I'm sort of tired of dealing with you. And the irony is that once you begin to read all these things, and once you begin to explore these ideas, you become humbled by how much you just don't fucking know. And I remember when I was more of a progressive-minded person and I, and, you know, like, prime example. Barack Obama was given the Nobel Peace Prize, which he obviously earned and made good on subsequently. And, you know, there's a lot of people at weddings in Pakistan that might not agree.

Yeah, yeah. You mean all the, all the militants in their bridal gowns? But, you know, but, you know, that this person had the audacity to point out to me on Facebook, no less, that Barack Obama had done absolutely nothing to earn his Nobel Prize. And it was just like the NPC meme. I'm sitting there and I read it. I processed it. It was loading for a little bit. And then I was like, you're a hater. Ha, ha, ha, you're a hater. Slam my laptop shut. There's no attempt whatsoever to engage with the truth of what this person just said, the simple truth of what this person just said. And that's what we're seeing, I feel like at large, at least in this sect of society. It's this refusal to engage because I'm so sure that where I am is unimpeachable that, you know, you can't even count.

I just have to be clever and funny and snarky and cool, but I stay stupid as a result. And I feel like there's, there's, you know, just mass stupidity going on, but it's masquerading as intelligence and moral and moral superiority. That's, that's, that's, I could rant for hours, obviously, about all kinds of things, you know, but it's, I just see it and I just can't. and I observe it and I just can't shut up about it and I feel like more people need to need to talk about it and call it out. A man and a woman. Yes, yes, absolutely.

But Clifton, thank you so much for coming on the show. It's been an absolute pleasure. If people wanted to follow you, you've already said that earlier on, but just repeat again very, very quickly. Yes, I am on Twitter at Clifton A. Duncan and I'm also on Instagram at Clifton Duncan online. I also have a YouTube channel called Clifton Duncan,

which I'll be uploading content to regularly. I started uploading Shakespeare and Sinus, and then my computer died, so I wasn't able to do it anymore. But, you know, I'm going to finish that project and also begin to upload more entertainment-focused work as well. You know, I feel like that could be my unique contribution to the content creation alternative sphere. you should definitely go for it i'm going to go and subscribe to your youtube channel straight away and i

recommend everybody else does as well because as i said there's a lot of great things to come out of you i have no doubt uh but we've got one more question for you which is always the one we always finish on which is what is the one thing we're not talking about but we really should be the one thing we're not talking about but we but we really should be it's such an easy and simple question i think one thing that we're not talking about that we really should be talking about that we really should be talking about is courage. How far are we willing to allow ourselves to be pushed into the realm of things that we know are not true? How do we develop the ability to measure our compassion with practicality? I mean, how, how, I just, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I,

so many things to it. I guess I just have to go back to what it means to be a human being and to be alive. You know, and my job as an actor is to be a conduit of all of those things. And I think the more technologically advanced that we become, and especially the more atomized that we become, It becomes really incumbent upon us to reach out to people. I mean, I've been so heartened by being down here in Atlanta when you're outside of this progressive bubble in a blue city like New York. You know, you're talking to your lift driver, your Uber driver, you're talking to the clerk at the right aid of the CVS. And you realize that people, people are people and they have issues and they have problems. They want to fall in love.

They get angry. They get jealous. They go through despair. And these are the things that are important. These are the things that we should be focusing on and improving in our lives. And the less time that we spend watching the quote-unquote news, the less time we spend shitting all over each other on social media, and the more that we reconnect to each other.

I mean, it's going to sound like a soppy, can't we all just get a long kind of message? And again, this is the bleeding heart in me. But I feel like now more than ever, there are so many forces that are trying to pull us apart. And we need to just come together more. You know, I cautioned my friend the other day or yesterday. I said, you know, just I have a problem with people who place responsibility on others for the spread of an infectious disease.

I mean, you can't really control the path of a virus. It's just yet another tool people are using to place me in the good camp and you and the other camp. And I think people need to ask themselves who benefits from all this division because it's not us. It's definitely not us. And so if that were the, the. a bit of a meandering response, but if that were the question, I'd say, you know, people need to be talking more about what makes us human and what and what unites us and binds us as people and not just those who are alive today, but from expanses of time, one of the great

things about reading all these old plays and all this old literature, as you find that even though technologies change, customs change, civilizations change, what motivates people has been the same thing for thousands of years. We are part of this rich human chain and this rich human experience. and, you know, we need to be very careful about preserving that, and we don't want to squander it over bullshit. It's a really, really lovely way to finish the interview. Thank you so much for coming on, Kirsten. We really, really do appreciate it.

It was a brilliant interview. Guys, if you've enjoyed the show, thank you so much. All our interviews and live streams go out 7 p.m. UK time, six days a week. And we will see you very soon. Make sure you go and subscribe to Cliff. This is the YouTube channel, and we'll see you very soon. Take care. Bye-bye. Discover, this is Daniela.

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