TRIGGERnometry - I Am a Grooming Gang Survivor: My Story

Episode Date: July 19, 2020

Dr Ella Hill is a Rotherham grooming gang survivor. Support TRIGGERnometry: Paypal: https://bit.ly/2Tnz8yq https://www.subscribestar.com/trigger... https://www.patreon.com/triggerpod Find TRIGGERnometry on Social Media:  https://twitter.com/triggerpod https://www.facebook.com/triggerpod https://www.instagram.com/triggerpod About TRIGGERnometry:  Stand-up comedians Konstantin Kisin (@konstantinkisin) and Francis Foster (@failinghuman) make sense of politics, economics, free speech, AI, drug policy and WW3 with the help of presidential advisors, renowned economists, award-winning journalists, controversial writers, leading scientists and notorious comedians. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

When you fly with Hawaiian Airlines, the whole family enjoys free access to Starlink, the fastest Wi-Fi in the sky, thanks to T-Mobile. Stream, scroll, message, and game while sipping a passion orange guava juice. Everyone stays entertained and your vacation gets a head start. Enjoy every moment of your trip, even before you land. Hawaii starts here. Hello and welcome to Trigonometry. I'm Francis Boster. I'm Constantine Kishin. And this is the show for you. If you want honest conversations with fascinating people. Our brilliant guest today is a grooming gang survivor. Dr. Ella Hill, welcome to Trinometry.

Thank you very much for having me. It is a pleasure to have you here. Just for people watching who know us as kind of jokey and bantery, given the subject matter, we're not going to do that too much today, even though we banter with you off the screen and you enjoy. that and we enjoy that, but just we've got to do justice to what we're talking about. So for people who don't know your story, and maybe we have a lot of people from all over the world watching as well, they don't know what grooming gangs are. For some people, haven't heard it. And actually, I don't even like that term particularly because I think it conceals what these things really are. So tell us, first of all, what they are, and then we'll get into your own story after that.

Okay, well, I have my own definition of grooming gang crime and it's something that I'm hoping that more people will accept as a accepted definition because it's a culturally agreed idea of what comes to mind when people say grooming gangs, that it's a racially and religiously aggravated rape and a group or network based rape. Very often of underage girls, but it can be older girls as well and young women. And where does it mainly happen? Because the words, or the name of the town that is most commonly associated with it is Rodham, is it just in the north or does it happen all over the UK? Well, it's all over the UK. There's lots of different towns now that have been named, has been involved. There's Burnley, Blackburn, there's Oxford.

Really, there's very few big major cities that haven't had some sort of grooming gang scandal. And the numbers now estimated over there are. the last 40 years, possibly half a million victims? Half a million? Half a million victims over the last 40 years. Yeah. Right. And the predominantly white victims and the perpetrators are predominantly Asian Muslim.

Yeah, we'll definitely get into that. So we're not going to shy away from that at all. Half a million? Yeah. That's... My jaw is slightly agape. And I think... No one was to see that.

No, no. No, no, certainly not. I guess the question is, if half a million girls have been abused, why is there not a national scandal? Why do we not know about this? Well, it is a national scandal, and in Rotherham,

there have been numerous reports after reports, they've been looking into it and highlighting this type of crime, and there's been a national crime agency of doing an investigation of historic cases over the past 15 years. And they've reopened a lot of cases and looked to bringing perpetrators to justice. I think maybe about 20, 25 perpetrators have been brought to justice in Rotherham, but there's over a thousand under investigation by the National Crime Agency in Operation Stoverwood himself. Okay, well, let's get into that. But before we do,

as I said, I think it's important we get your own story. Sure, yeah, yeah. So you were a victim of one of these gangs in Rotherham? Yeah. Yeah. And just talk us through it. Okay, well, I just say my background a little bit as well first. Of course. I'm a medical doctor. I'm a mum.

You know, my story started over 20 years ago. I was targeted in my late teens, so I had a Pakistani Muslim boyfriend. And that led on within a few weeks to becoming very controlling, obsessive. religiously charged relationship and then been taken to different houses, different flats above takeaways around the area, Rotherham, Sheffield, Bradford, to be raped, beaten, strangle, suffocated, tortured, almost drowned to death, suffocated to death, you know, really, really brutally harmed, you know, covered in bruises most of the time, and that lasted over a year. So your experience lasted collectively over a year, essentially.

And I mean, the next question I'm going to ask is, how did you possibly get out of that awful situation? Well, I tried to escape. I tried to get away. A lot of it I was hiding from my parents because I was very, very scared that they were going to get killed because there were threats to kill my parents, threats to kill me. But I did try and move, tried to get away, and my perpetrator just found me very easily, stalked me basically, to find me and broke into my house and trashed the house

and planned an honour killing, which he persuaded some of his friends to join in with. And I survived and attempted honour killing with multiple. lacerations and fractures. And then I was in hospital for over a week. At that point, the police told my parents to move me away and change my name, which is what they did, and that's how I got out of it. And with this horrible situation lasting, I mean, a year is a long time anyway, but a year of that kind of thing is a lifetime, right? And did you approach the police? Yeah, yeah, I went to the police five times, at least five or six times. They just said there's nothing we can do about it.

What? There's nothing we can do about it. Those are their exact words. So you, I mean, were you explicit in what you told them? So you said I'm being raped by this guy. I described really horrific, horrific things.

And they just said there's nothing we can do about it. Did they offer an explanation as to why there was nothing? Well, I said, I'm sure these are crimes. I was a teenager at the time, but I did know that these were crimes. I wasn't sure that it was rape, Even though my perpetrators said, we're going to gang rape you, we're raping you. Yeah, they used the word rape, but I wasn't sure that it was because I didn't know, because he was my boyfriend.

So I didn't really understand what the law was around that. But... Well, the police should have understood the law was around that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you go to them repeatedly and every time this is what they say, there's nothing we can do about it, yeah. Why do you think that was? Culture at the time. At the time there was a culture of inaction.

I think that was what the review found that within the police at the time there was a culture of inaction. Motivated by what? Partly by the belief that is your word against theirs and a lot of sexual crime, that, you know, how do you prove what went on in a room where there were no other witnesses? And where people are denying what you say happened. But surely Ella, there were physical, you described physical lacerations to your body when there is a crime of that nature, there is damage that is inflicted upon the body.

Yeah, yeah, I did, you know, I've still got scars from lacerations. And, you know, it's all documented, the fractures, it all had x-rays, so it's all documented in the medical notes. I've read my medical notes and the nurse says, you know, this patient says that her ex-boyfriend has tried to kill her five times and that he's tried to kill her. So it's all documented. And when I heard about the J report in 2014,

that's when I re-reported it to the police because I, well, I didn't re-report it, sorry, I made a complaint to the IPCC, the Independent Police Complaints Commission, which is now the IOPC, the Independent Office of Police Complaints, I think. So they investigated it, and they found that there was gross negligence,

but they couldn't prosecute. or take any disciplinary action against the police officers because they said they couldn't identify the names of the police officers or that they were retired. Why couldn't they identify the names of the police officers? Missing notes. Oh, convenient. I think, you know, we've prepared for this interview.

We've talked to you in advance. We've listened to your previous interviews. We've read about it. We've read your articles. You've written some really excellent articles, including one for the independent. But the stuff you're saying, you're saying it to our faces now, and I literally cannot believe the things you're telling me. You went to the police five times with physical wounds and evidence saying that this man was abusing you in this way, and the police said there's nothing we can do.

Like, I don't think there's anyone who's listening to this or watching this who could conceive of that being true, even though we know that it is. Yeah, it's true, yeah. It just, it's, I mean, it's shocking. I was absolutely gobsmacked. I think that's the word I used. I was gobsmacked to hear the police telling me. There's nothing we can do about it. Not even question the perpetrator,

not even, you know, take photographic evidence or anything. Right. So I was gobsmacked to hear that they felt completely powerless. And now I think over the years I've learned a lot more about what is happening behind the scenes with education and police force, with the way that the police have been restricted and limited in what they can do. So I do understand a lot more of why those decisions were made at that time. Okay, tell us about that.

Well, a lot of it is to do with race and religion, which a lot of people don't really like talking about, and they don't like to hear it. But this is why I feel compelled to talk. about what's happened and what is still happening. Because people need to hear it from survivors, that these are racially and religiously aggravated crimes. That when I was being beaten,

I was being called a white slag, a white whore, a white cunt. That over and over again, the references to my whiteness was always at the forefront of my perpetrator's mind. And that that was always linked in with religion and his idea of what a good Muslim was and a bad non-Muslim was. or a good believer and a bad unbeliever,

even though I was a Christian, even though I have my faith in God, I pray. You know, I believe in heaven and hell, I believe in good and bad, good and evil. So, but in the minds of these screaming gangs, if you're not covered down to your ankles, down to your wrist, if the hem of your top doesn't cover to your knees, then you're asking to be raped.

or you know if you're not washing in the way that you should wash as a Muslim if you're not if you're eating pork you're unclean you're dirty if you use a knife and fork you're dirty if you don't eat your food with your hands sounds like I couldn't know I quite understand that is the opposite way around but so there's lots of narratives within these grooming gangs which make hatred of white people

a justification for what they're doing. And also scriptural things like, you know, we're allowed to do this, we're permitted to do this to you once you've started your periods. So we can't do it to you. And before you've started your periods, we have to do sighing, which is another type of sexual molestation,

which doesn't involve penetration. Okay. So, I mean, it's just a lot to take in what you've just explained. Yeah. And I remember talking to you before the interview started in that. And correct me if I'm wrong that the police don't see this as a race crime or a race-based crime. Could you explain maybe if I'm wrong if I am and just go into it a little bit further?

How the police have been trained for a long time is to preserve interracial relations, to not raise any racial hatred, to not accuse people of, of doing something in the name of religion which could cause anti-Muslim prejudice or anti-Islamic prejudice. So this is the way that police have been trained for a long, long time, years and years and years. So they're looking at it from completely the wrong way around,

they're looking at from a perpetrator's perspective rather than from the victim's perspective where a victim has been a victim of identity-based violence, where they've been attacked because of their race and they've been attacked because of the religious status which is a non-Muslim or Christian or Sikh or Hindu or Buddhist or whatever it is that the perpetrates appeal is the religious justification for that person deserving punishment

Wow and so simply they can't they won't they refuse to acknowledge it as a race-based crime even though you've given them evidence of it even though part of the reason they committed these unspeakably awful acts upon on you was because the fact that you were white and therefore they felt emboldened and empowered to do that because, and they still won't? No, I think the way that the system has been set up, it has been set up to have protected groups

and white people and non-Muslim people are not a protected group according to the, these are current police guidelines for hate crimes. So there's certain protected groups like Muslims, immigrants, refugees, Jews. I'm fine then. Trans. You're safe. I'm safe. You're safe. I'm safe. I'm safe. I'm trans. I'm coming out on this particular episode of the show. And you're a minority in Wales. Yeah, absolutely. Oh, yeah. Mixed race. Mixed race. Yeah, half Latin American. He's gammon. Look at it. Yeah, yeah. It's all this is 100% pure Brexit. I think you're both cancelled by now. Yeah. I don't know if you're still protected.

I'm not sure. But I get your point. There's lots of groups that are protected under this categorization, but white people are not. And you're saying that's current guidelines. There's current guidelines. So let me put it very pointedly to you. If what happened to you was to happen to another young woman today,

and she went to the police and said, this is what's happening to me. And I think it's because I'm white. Yeah. They would still behave in a similar way. In some police forces, they would not record that as a hate crime. But in some police forces, I mean, people think of met police as the whole of the UK.

It isn't. That's just one police force. And there's, I think it's 23 or 25, different police forces all over the UK. And they all have different management stretches and training systems. It's all overseen by the College of Policing. But, you know, there's a slight different culture in each part of the country. So some of them probably are recording anti-white hate crimes now. but looking at last year's hate crime statistics

there was none that we haven't got any hate crime statistics for anti-white hate crime we haven't got any hate crime statistic for anti-Western hate crime and I would say that when we talk about anti-Western hate crime anti-white hate crime we need to include

the anti-Western as well because now we are getting well we always have had the brown people who are being attacked for being too white so they're being called coconuts they're being called Uncle Tom's you know, the black people who don't fit in with the specific cultural belief of what they should be for being black, you know, according to certain groups.

You've just described every ethnic minority guest on trigonometry, as you know, pretty much. So, look, I want to balance this up a little bit just in terms of, I want people to know about you, which I know about you, that you're not someone who's driven by antipathy towards other groups of people, even Muslims, which frankly, you know, you'd be forgiven for, even if it's not accurate to say that this is all Muslims. People, I think, would understand if you had some kind of antipathy, but you don't, which is incredible to me. Not all, not all. I mean, for my Christian faith, my very strong belief is love your enemy. So love your enemy, bless those who curse you and do good to those who spitefully use you. So that is what I fall back on again and again. And it's been a chosen decision that, you know, these people who have made

me, their enemy or they are my enemy, they're attacking me and they're identifying me as an enemy that they have to harm. I will not hate them. I will not hate all Muslims, not at all. In fact, I will love them. I will make a determined choice to love them. And for them to be my friends

and for me to cook meals for my friends and take care of them, look after them, check on their kids, their families, everything. I will not be driven to hate anybody because of their colour of their skin or their background or their race or religion, age, gender, sexuality. That I think is really part of, it's part of my faith. Which is incredible.

I mean, it's so powerful. The fact that it's considering the extremities of your experiences, the fact that you would then make a concerted effort to, make that choice, it's, you know, it's phenomenal, really. It's been quite easy, I have to say, because I've met some absolutely wonderful people. Like, in my career, trainee as a doctor, through medical school, through working hospitals,

just absolutely fantastic. Like my friends, Nepalese, Thai, Chinese, Lebanese, Iraqi, Indian, Sri Lankan. These are my close, close, close, best friends that I've had for you. years and years. So it hasn't been hard to love them at all, to be fair. And my Pakistani friends as well. The main charity that I support is the Pakistani, it's in Pakistan, it's a Christian charity. And that's through my friends in the church. But for me, it gives me peace to love people.

No matter what, that gives me peace. So when I see this Black Lives movement and I see a lot of with people on the streets and they've got injustice and justice is horrible and racism is horrible to be a victim of any kind of identity-based violence is devastating and if it's been perpetuated through generation after generation, you know, or it's been ingrained in your schooling or, you know, you've experienced it on the street throughout years, that is awful. You know, it's very traumatising and it can be compacted by lots of historical things as well. so I do think identity his violence is terrible

but for these black lives matter people to go through the streets chanting no justice no peace no justice no peace what I'm seeing is a perpetuation of no peace and the only way that justice has been offered to them

is through what appears to be revenge for the moment you're absolutely right the reason I bring up this point is I think let's just be straight about it. A lot of people feel that the issue of identity has become very toxic and you know this. And a lot of people feel, and this is because of course, as you again, I think you'd agree, identity politics for minorities has now pushed a lot of people into a corner where some people are starting to go, well, what about my identity as a straight white man

or whatever it might be or a straight white woman or whatever. And so, to talk about anti-white hate crime to a lot of people that triggers their inner alarm bells of your endangeless waters here. Yeah. And a lot of people now confuse the sort of thing that you're talking about, which, you know, based on the way that you describe it, is undoubtedly an anti-white or anti-Western hate crime. They confuse a complaint about that, which is perfectly legitimate, with an attempt to smear people, with an attempt to attack minorities, with an attempt to be racist. And in one of your previous interview, you talked about the fact that even your parents were worried about speaking out and getting justice and getting you out of that horrific situation

because your parents were worried. They are still. They're still worried about being called racist. Now, I just ask everybody who's listening to this or everybody who's watching this to imagine that this is happening to your child and the concern you have about being called racist is so strong that it gets in the way of you protecting your child. How terrified must you be? What kind of culture you must live in

to be so scared about that? That's true. That's true. Yeah, I mean, nobody is safe. Victims are not safe. It's been a safeguarding disaster, I would say, the fact that we're not being protected from being falsely accused of being racist, Nazis, fascists, gammon. I like you, you said that to me.

I did look at you when I said that. And also you directed the enemies bit to me as well. I saw that as well. Ella's worked at all right. She gave us two boxes of chocolates before the show started. She gave Francis the pink one and me the blue one. She's very perceptive. I'm white so I can call you gammon.

I can get away with it. So white and white, I'm white. Exactly. I know, we shouldn't laugh. I mean, I've been, you know, I've been on Twitter now for like four or five months and through lockdown. And I've seen how bad it's getting on there. And actually, I've recently left because it's not, it's not longer safe for me on there. The anti-fascist activists, the online activists are really, really vicious and really scary.

You know, they're doxing people. They've docks two of my friends. They've put their names and dresses online. They put the kids photographs online. they're harming their children. You know, they've hacked into people's accounts. Not me personally, but I've seen it happen to other people. And, you know, it's the safety concerns are getting too high now,

especially when you see all the anti-white attacks, you know, all the videos that have been coming out of the last few weeks. It's horrible. Just for, again, for people, because most people who may be watching this, they may not be familiar with what you're talking about. So let's just be clear. If I was as an ordinary person listening to this interview, I would say, well, of course, Ella is going to be a threat because the Muslims who may have been involved in those grooming gangs may want revenge on her for speaking out or for getting them prosecuted, etc.

But you are actually saying, you're shaking your head and people might not be able to see, the threats that are coming to you and the people, you know, you were worried about coming here today. I was scared to come here today. and you were scared of Antifa I just want to take a moment for people to think about that you're scared because the people

on the far left which is who Antifa is who are caring, compassionate and care about victims and minorities and oppressed people they are the people

you're worried about. The anti-fascists the anti-pascist yeah a grooming gang survivor is worried about anti-fascists. And our family members are very scared of them. And, you know, it's so out of hand

at the moment. It's just really, really dangerous for people. I mean, people are scared to have a Union Jack in the garden. They're scared to, you know, support England in football. They're scared to go out and show any white skin, you know, walking on the street. You know, they'll cover up every single part of them to hide their whiteness. People are really, really worried at the moment. It's very dangerous because the attacks are really bad. But online, I just want to come back to the gammon thing because, you know, I get called a Nazi, I get called a fascist,

I get called a bigger, I get called an enemy of Islam, which is all lies. I'm not any of those things at all. You know, I'm not anti-Islam. I'm not anti-Muslim, I'm anti-spiritual abuse of anything. But one of the things that really hurts is being called gammon. And the amount of times that people will say, oh, you're gammon, you're gammon. They'll send me memes, different memes of meat rolling down, you know, meat rolling down a hill, you know, different pictures of pink men.

Look, I spend a lot of time telling you what's wrong with the world. So let me tell you about something that's actually right. Sleep. specifically getting more of it, better quality, the kind where you wake up and feel like a human being rather than someone who's been thrown down a staircase. Most mattresses are just layers of synthetic foam and crossed fingers. You're spending a third of your life on the thing

and most people have no idea what's actually in it. Avocado green mattress is different. Their mattresses are certified organic, built from natural materials designed to actually support your body properly rather than just hold you in one position until morning. The craftsmanship is real. These are mass-produced objects.

Someone has put thought into them. I'll be honest. I'm not the person who thinks carefully about where he sleeps. My dating history will tell you that. I'm the person who's been on the same mattress for eight years and called it fine. But the older I get, the more I notice that fine isn't actually fine. Your body tells you, if you're going to invest in anything for your home, your bed is the one that pays you back every single night. Avocado products are made, not manufactured, and thoughtfully crafted with real materials to deliver lasting comfort and support.

Go to avocado greenmatress.com slash trigger to check out their mattress and furniture sale. That's avocado green mattress.com slash trigger. Avocado green mattress.com slash trigger. We said at the start that there's not going to be any humor of it. But you know, the nickname they have for me is Barry Gammond. You know, the stereotype, this pink tattooed, overweight, bald-headed, typical northern Brit. So.

At least you're not bald, man. Yeah, I know. She was going through all this checklist. That's me. He's got the better hair of the chair. He's got his tattoos are pink. Yeah, they are. I got told by a dermatologist in Venezuela when my mum was worried about my skin.

I know with a digression, we went to see him. He went to her, there's nothing wrong with your child. He's just a very pink little boy. I agree. I agree. Nothing wrong with you once. It's true. So anyway, but yeah, the pink meat thing is, you know, we're called easy meat.

Yeah, the girls were called easy meat because we're seen as being an easy target that they can pick us up and use us away really easily. because we're not following the strict Muslim rules where Muslim girls have to be chaperoned when they go out. They cannot look at a man who's not the mother, sorry, the brother, their father or their husband. If they look at a man in the eyes, then that means that they're asking to have sex with them. Whereas if a white girl looks at a Muslim man in their eyes,

then she's asking him to have sex with him. These are all the things that I was taught and, you know, believe it. But for all these different reasons that culturally, white girls are seen as easy meat. You know, they sing, they listen to music, they like dancing, they drink alcohol. All of this is seen as deeply immoral and worthy of punishment, and the punishment is rape, beating. So... Sorry, Elliot, just to... You say they're taught this.

Yeah. I haven't read the Quran nearly thoroughly enough to be able to speculate about that, but are you saying they're taught that by religious scholars? They're taught it within grooming gang circles. Oh, okay. So this is why I want to deline it. We're not saying that Muslims are taught this. You're saying people in grooming games.

This is what I would call grooming gang ideology. Yes. Like you'd say jihadi ideology, which is different to mainstream Muslim ideology or mainstream Muslim belief. And actually, there's a whole spectrum of beliefs from really, really helpful to loving your neighbor, taking care of the sick, taking care of the children, protecting family and then right across the other end of the spectrum which is really really harmful which is you know bombing people and the 9-11 bombings the 7-7 bombings you know Manchester arena bombing and

you know punishing people for what is perceived to be a spiritual flaw or religious digression and honour killings is included in that so there's a whole spectrum of beliefs and you get that spectrum within any faith group and when it comes to grooming gang crime there's like five main areas. So it's virginity, purity, modesty, obedience and marriage. So I will talk about all the different, you know. But before you do, who teaches them this? This is what I'm trying to get at. Word and mouth from one person to the next person to next. So older generations are training younger generations in this stuff? Yeah. And does it reside in one particular type of community? Or is it spread across a lot of communities who follow Islam? Well, we don't know. I don't know. I think

there may be some research that have gone into that, but this isn't something that I know much about. I don't know much about the different divisions. And I would say that this is spiritual abuse. And even in Pakistan, there's a law against using religious scriptures to harm people or to use it to exploit people. Misusing the scriptures, if you like, is illegal in Pakistan.

People can get prosecuted for that. And in fact, the type of gang rapes that you see, that are happening in Pakistan have been prosecuted as terrorist attacks. In Pakistan? In Pakistan, yeah. But not here? No, not yet. They should be. They very much should be, and rape should be an act of terrorism. And it should be included. And when police documenting evidence, they should put on there whether this person has links to terrorist groups overseas, whether they're a returning foreign fighter, whether they are, you know, part of some larger network,

which is known as a prescribed terrorist group. So it definitely needs to be treated like that now, yeah. And you were talking about your experiences, which happened 20 years ago. Are we doing enough at the moment to protect young vulnerable girls? Well, that's the whole different thing. And of course, you know, there are lots of perpetrators who are not Pakistani Muslim or Iraqi or Afghan, you know, these types of gangs. And, you know, there's lots of white paedophiles, there's a lot of online grooming.

And, you know, we're not detracting from those types of offences by talking about one specific type of offence. And so one of the reasons that I've been told to shut up for the sake of diversity. Which is a quote from a Labour MP? Well, not from her directly. She liked and retweeted a tweet. And she has since said that she did that. a mistake. She didn't mean to do it. Anyway, it happened and she's not been allowed to forget it. But, you know, we've been told to be quiet for diversity for all sorts of different reasons.

There are lots of different categories of sexual offenders. Some of them use a completely different model. They don't use the grooming technique or if they do grooming, there's something called Bernardo's grooming line, which is four main stages of like a targeting stage where they identify. a victim and then a friendship stage where they kind of get to know the victim they get to know maybe they're like puppies or they like kittens or they like and then they'll like footballs and they'll give them treats and presents in the line of whatever they like and then there's like the romantic relationship stage where it goes into a boyfriend girlfriend and this can be like 20 years age gap difference um mine was roughly 15 years and then it'll go into um the abusive

relationship stage so that's the grooming line that's why they call it grooming nothing to do with like shaving and having hair cut and stuff. But yeah, so there's all sorts of different categories and different types of sexual exploitation and are recognised within the services. And just because you, I compare it to medicine. So if you've got a cardiac unit, it doesn't mean you don't care about the renal unit, but you treat renal patients with a different way. You know, the way you need to treat those types of diseases different.

and the way that you need to combat it is different to the way that you need to combat cardiac disease. Yeah. And so there are different specialisms and you can't say we're taking resources from one or the other, you know, you want to treat all of it. And yes, it's all within the umbrella of a big hospital or it's all under the umbrella of child safeguarding.

But there is different approaches that are needed for each different type. So that's what I try to do, try to explain to people when we're talking about grooming gang crime, we're not, you know, people very quickly want to say, well, all races and religions, you know, victims that are of all races and religions, and we shouldn't be racist, so you shouldn't be biased, you shouldn't racialise the issue. But on the other hand, you know, if it is a racially and religiously aggravated crime, that needs to be dealt with in a slightly different way. And if it's linked to terrorism and drug trafficking and, you know, human trafficking aboard or all sorts of other, you know, crime networks.

then that may need to be dealt with on a different level to, you know, Uncle Fred, who's fiddling with his nephew or whatever. It's just a different type of approach needed. Completely. I suppose what you were getting at that, though, mate, was whether, like, you think that lessons have been learned from the experiences of people like you and other survivors so that it wouldn't, couldn't happen again in the present time. In terms of the big umbrella, I think the funding is massively increased, the understanding is

massively increased, so young girls under the age of 16 are not being called child prostitutes anymore. They're being recognised as being victims, whereas they weren't for a long time, you know, the police would very often do the victim blaming alongside the perpetrators for doing the victim blaming, saying, oh, she was drunk, she was wearing a mini skirt, she was asking for it, which is basically repeating, grooming gang ideology and ticking off the box, you know, refer to counselling, that's job done. But that doesn't happen so much anymore. And I think there's a huge investment going on. And I've been involved in training professionals about safeguarding children.

So, you know, been involved in a lot of these discussions, this thing has been developing over the last few years. And that has been improving. But again, that is an overall improvement. In terms of the specialist area, again, we'll wait and see what's going to come out and what are the outcomes are going to be from the grooming review from the home office to see if there is going to be any specialist provision because what the police even have been asking for is a specialist centralised national unit because these drugs, I'm sorry, the human trafficking is going on between county lines they call it where it's across borders so from one major city to the next new bill can be moved around a lot and have perpetrators in lots of different areas and it's very,

very complex. So for police force point of view to have a centralized grooming gang unit would be beneficial. What about the culture? Because, you know, when we talked about your parents being scared, right? And

you know, us being scared to talk about it, you being attacked. Yeah. Do you feel that the culture that allowed that to happen, the culture of you can't be racist against white people. Yeah, yeah.

The culture of you must be careful not to offend different ethnic groups by telling the truth about what's happening. That culture, do you feel that we've made enough progress on those things? I'm shocked at how bad it is. It's definitely gone the other way.

You think it's got worse? It's definitely got worse. I mean, just the last few weeks I've been really traumatized, actually, really ret traumatized because, you know, when you've gone through racist abuse and to not have that acknowledged and then to be told that you're racist

for reporting a racist abuse. It's another level of injustice and to never get justice. And then to almost be prosecuted for speaking out about it. You're feeling that you're a threat of being prosecuted for speaking out. And to see now, you know, I do watch James Lindsay's Twitter feeds and all the information that's coming out about the A lot of it is feminist academics, intersectionist feminism, which has been a massive spanner in the works. Because these theories are being put forward about the theories of whiteness, the theories of white women's tears,

the theories of the white people cannot experience racism because they've not historically been oppressed. So a few months ago I was reporting tweets of Twitter, saying these are anti-white racist tweets and I got a report back saying no, it doesn't breach the guidelines, Twitter's guidelines. So then I reported it again to another hate

organization and they contacted Twitter and came back with the reply that we don't remove any anti-white tweets because white people have not been historically marginalized or oppressed. So they're doing on Twitter what the police did 20 years ago.

What the police essentially are being taught still. Still. Still. In some forces, yeah. And it doesn't exist. And it goes back to that retweet, shut up for the sake of diversity. Do you think we've been told to shut up for the sake of diversity? Yeah. And how many, well, we can see it through Twitter.

Do you think it's in every aspect of our life where we're suddenly felt because of... I think the Black Lives Matter movement is frightening to me because A, I was forced to bend the knee. I was forced to kneel down and kiss my perpetrator's feet. I was forced to, you know, literally bend the knee, to literally kneel at his feet as part of the abuse that I wasn't received. And I know that other victims have as well from Rotherham. I heard of one girl who was forced to kneel down.

She was raped by dozens of men. She was forced to lick their feet clean because she's white trash. In their mind, she's white trash. they're so morally superior to her that they believe that they are it's a Muslim superiority thing that they believe that they have

maximum moral authority to command the people beneath them to do that, to look their feet. So when I see the footballers kneeling and when I see leading politicians kneeling to me then, I'm seeing them kneeling to me,

my perpetrators and it breaks my heart. You know, I feel scared. I feel really scared that if this is what the police officers are doing, they're kneeling. And I understand that for them, they may feel that they're showing honour. And that is another thing in Pakistani culture to, if a man kneels at his mother's feet and kisses his mother's feet, he's showing honour and elevation and he's showing how precious she is to him.

And that is another interpretation. But it's also an act of subjugation to force someone to kneel. I will make you kneel. You know, that kind of, you know, you will be my slave kind of thing. Well, just to be clear, I mean, there is some argument there, and I think it's important to say this, that it started with Colin Kaepernick taking the knee.

Yeah. And so some of the people who were taking the knee, particularly in the American context, where the idea of being knighted or other. other things didn't exist. It was more sign of solidarity than it was of submission, if you like. The problem is I think you very rightly say is when you start making people, Neil, when you start saying, as I'm sure would have happened, if, you know, the Premier League in this country restarted a couple of weeks back, you know, I'd like to see what would have happened to a footballer

who refused to kneel, right? And that's where you come into what you're talking about, which is you will kneel. You must kneel. And that trouble. And that trouble, troubles me, I'm sure you know, troubles you way more because you know what that's like. And you know the psychological point of that, it's domination. Damaging. It's damaging and it's about saying you're down there, I'm up here. So I can see why you feel that way. I can absolutely see how you feel that way. But you brought up the grooming review, the grooming gang review, which the government, the home office initiated, they prepared a report, correct me if I'm wrong at any point.

they prepared a report and that report was ready to be published and then was not published. Is that correct? Yeah. Do you have any insight into why it was not, it was held back? Well, I'm one of the people who contributed to the review because I gave some training at the Home Office and at number 10. So I kind of know what some of the information that is in there. Okay.

I also know about some of the research that has gone into that from one of the feminist academics. who is very concerned. I know she's personally very concerned that this could be used as anti-Muslim hate, that her data could be used and twisted and distorted to justify anti-Muslim attacks. So whether that could be the reason

why they're hesitant to publish it, I'm not sure. For that particular study that was looking at groups, operating in networks and gangs, In the UK, there were only 50-odd perpetrators that were identified under the specific parameters of that investigation of that paper. And out of those 50-odd perpetrators, I think it was 96%, were Asian,

in inverted commas, so they were Pakistani, Muslim, Iraqi or Afghan, mostly. So again, it's a very small sample size. So to say, or 96% of groomers, or sexual offenders are Asian, is something that if you took it is just that and didn't look at it in context and didn't look at it in terms of, you know,

all the other missing data that we don't have and we don't know, you know, all the hundreds of thousands of other cases that are not going through the police systems that are not being charged. You know, we still only have a like a 2% success rate for convictions for rape

of any type of perpetrator, whether a black, white, brown, Asian. So it's really, really low conviction rate anyway. So there's far more perpetrators than convicted criminals. Yeah. So we, but sorry, let me just follow, just on the review, I want to first of all get into that. So your suspicion, and I don't want to put any words in your mouth,

so just tell me if any of this isn't correct. Your suspicion is that they're delaying it because they're worried that some of the findings of the review would be used by people to attack Muslims. Yeah. Well, they suspect it's inflammatory. When really, there's no need to be concerned because although there may be a few very extreme people who might be inflamed to take action

and harm somebody because of that, I think most people are aware of the whole story now anyway. You know, most of the people who care about the information being made public have heard about this for a long, long time. They do believe it is racially and religiously aggravated. And, you know, with any types of crime, whether it's someone getting punched in the street

or, you know, graffitiing on someone's house, if there's a racial and religious aggravation element to it, they usually get a longer sentence. It could be slightly longer, or in severe crimes, it can be double the sentence. And that's because the impact is not just on that individual, on that whole identity group community. So it is treated a lot more seriously

if it is racially or religiously aggravated. So I don't really see why there's a problem because when there are anti-Muslim crimes, you know, we've got organisations that give support to victims of anti-Muslim crime that help them through the legal system, that help bring justice for them, and help prevent that as well,

educate and prevent that through, you know, teaching in schools, for example. And that's fine. Nobody says that that is that when we highlight anti-Muslim crime, we're provoking jihadi attacks or, you know, terrorist attacks,

is mismist attacks. So we shouldn't be saying the other way around either. And Ella, what do you think are going to be the long-term implications of suppression this report?

Do you think there's going to be no implications at all? Do you think? Well, they've said it's going to be released within the year. we'll have to see what happens now because of you know COVID political situation in the world situation and you know problems with protests and things at the moment could be making it a difficult time to release that type of of information but I hope it will be released soon and I hope they'll come up with a sensible plan

which will include countering the far left extremists who've been trying to suppress a lot of this information trying to suppress it being dealt with properly and responsibly and reasonably. And I hope that they will look at the spiritual aspects and just acknowledge that there's spiritual abuse going on. And why do you think, and I've seen this on Twitter a lot, people label people who talk about the grooming gangs issue as right wing, why do we use that term to describe people who try and raise this issue? Well, I'm old enough to remember the 20th.

Tower attacks and I think a lot of this stems from that time when it was a massive shock. I was a junior, I was a medical student training hospital and I remember I was working at A&E department and I remember patients saying to me, you know, pointing to the TV screen and saying, you know, an airplane has just flown into the one of the Twin Towers in New York and I went home and I was absolutely shaken by watching the live footage of the people jumping out of the building of the whole world and collapsing and I don't know how many people died in it a horrific number of people

that shook me personally because it was bringing back a lot of the feelings that I had had being attacked by essentially Islamists who were religious extremists so it brought back a lot of those feelings

and from that point onwards there became this technical war on terror which was to do something about all the religious extremism teaching that was going on, all the hate preaching it was going on within mosques. And I think that has been successful in many ways and it has helped to prevent a lot more of those kinds of things going on that could have happened than the security services have done that over the last 20 years. part of that they've also been looking at far-right extremism which is a reaction to the Islamist attacks under grooming gang crime and lots of other things as well in America is different

but for here it's a lot tied up to the grooming gang issue so when I've been to counter extremism training workshops and conferences these two things are talked about like it's a dichotomy like you know, it's the upper verbs versus the var rights, and it's the Muslims versus the anti-Muslim, if you like. So these two groups, and they've completely ignored the far left. So if you look in the legislation, in the police guidelines, in counterterrorism legislation, counterterrorism efforts, which is a massive multi-million pound industry in the UK

and multi-billion pound industry in America. Multi-billion dollar, sorry, in America. So yeah, there's been this incredible experiment which I would say it's been fired up through the explosion of social media to reduce Islamist extremism and to reduce far-right extremism but at the expense of forgetting to think about the far-left extremism you know there's not been a focus for a very long time and we're seeing now what happens if you neglect to do something about that.

And, you know, the far-left movements, the far-left anti-Western movements, they're anti-Western, but for a very different reason. Would you go into that a little bit? So why are they anti-West? Why are they anti-Western? A lot of it seems to be coming across from America, from American intersectional feminism. and

Ella's not a fan of the old feminism might notice I love you guys love you guys I've got so many good men in my life

I just I cannot agree that all men are misogynists and you know I cannot agree that all men are part of the patriarchy

is just I can't you know that's a different subject sorry I interrupt you with the

you were saying it's coming over from America which is absolutely right yeah there's been this very very very

well-intentioned in a lot of cases, movement against generations of oppression of police brutality towards black people. I mean, you even hear examples of it in the UK. I've got to talk about four weeks ago the two black women that were murdered in a park nearby here where we're recording. We think they're from a Christian family background, but we don't know if there's a religious or a racist intent to why they were murdered. But it's possible that there was and that's under investigation by the police now. But one of the most shocking things is that police officers took selfies of themselves with the bodies of these two murdered women.

And, you know, things like this, you know, when you hear stories like that, you can see how, or you can understand how the pain of, you know, you know, generations of being disrespected for the colour of your skin, being treated as less than human because of the colour of your skin has brought up this Black Lives Matter movement because it's,

for anyone to be dehumanised, to be treated like an animal, essentially, or just a worthless piece of trash, is totally wrong. We're all valuable. Every one of us is valuable. And that's what you can't say now, actually. We can't say that.

If we, the way that the Black Lives Matter movement has now been pressed to such a degree and condensed and built up in this cauldron with, you know, the socialist aspect, the communist aspect, the Marxist aspect, neo-Marxism aspect, the Islamist aspect, you know, all these different political viewpoints, but all of it anti-Western, all of it anti-white. And it's just pits.

boiling point in this cauldron at the moment, I think. With lockdown, it made it worse, kind of existential crisis of, are we all going to die of coronavirus? You know, there's a threat that we're all under the moment. It really, and what I see on social media is that that hasn't been silence at all.

So I know we talk about free speech, and I've moved over to Tepala now, where it's meant to be, anything goes, you can say what you like, can be as fensive as you like, and you won't be censored. it's really civilised, it's really polite everyone's very nice, I don't see

the racist abuse I don't see, I'm sure there is some on there but I haven't really experienced it the last week since I've been on there whereas on Twitter when you've got this it is more censorious

but it's also more abusive and the abuse is definitely directed to to anyone who's being too westernised or to seem to be sort of, what do you call it, upholding the patriarchy or in collusion with white supremacists or whatever the accusations. And as you said, they're allowed by Twitter to do it because when you complain about it, they ignore it, absolutely. I think the issue that a lot of people have with Twitter is the double standards.

If they had equal standards for everybody and they said, look, this is a non-abusive platform. The moment you start being abusive to people, it doesn't matter of it. white, black, yellow, whatever, you get banned or you get blocked or you get suspended. Or equally, they could say, we don't care. You can say whatever you want. And then if they treated everybody equally, I think people would take it at face value and they would go, I don't want to be on an abusive platform. Yeah. Or I'm happy to be on a censorious platform as long as it's fair. Yeah. The issue that you're raising is it's not fair. It's not fair. It's not fair. It's not fair. But for some people, in the black movement, it's fair because it's been so outweighed against them for so long that they feel that for it to be outweighed against white people. It's only balanced and that's why they would call it satire. You know, this is funny to repeatedly abuse someone calling gammon, calling them meat, because you're colour of the skin, you're worthless, you're nothing better than just a piece of slab of meat. You know, that's funny. It's not funny. It's absolutely not funny. It's very insulting.

And what are the long-term implications do you think of allowing this sort of very much, very hard leftist, neo-Marxist way of thinking, not censoring them? They can come in, they can say whatever they like, they can be verbally abusive. What do you think of the long-term implications of that? Well, history tells us it's not good.

Really not good. And we look at different systems around the world and we learn it's really not good. But, you know, as I talk about identity-based violence and identity-based abuse and I say that we need to understand what that is and realise that we are victims of it. But I talk about free speech.

And I know this is the whole call for free speech and everything. And I'm saying, well, hold on, we need free speech, but with safe boundaries. We have these speech laws for a reason. You know, we have a computer act to say that it's wrong to hack into people's computers and steal their data or their lives or the money or whatever and it's wrong to slander people

or it's wrong to libel people and it's wrong to aggressively troll people you know we've got these laws they need to be applied but they need to be applied to the far left because we've got the far right the far left and the upper berbs so the way that I have come to understand

how these how to explain this to people is that extremists want to attack your mind, your body and your spirit. Okay, they want control over your mind, your body and your spirit. And we've all got a mind and a body and a spirit.

And the far right extremists are kind of experts in controlling and taking, approaching you from controlling your body and controlling physical violence, physical strength, physical power. The far, I'm sorry, the up above extremists are more interested in controlling your spirits. So they'll use, you know, they'll use guilt and shame, They'll use religious manipulation.

They'll use religious scriptures to control you to get you to do what you want, what they want you to do to serve them. And then there's a far left extremist who are experts in the mind and controlling the mind, and they will attack your mind. And they will do that through social media. They will do that through social norms or do it through, you know, pseudo-education. A lot of us also manipulation of language. The language, yeah.

Yeah, yeah. And they are the experts. You know, you've heard the saying the devil is a lawyer. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yes. I do think of that quite often. Yeah. The skill of these people to flip things and manipulate things

and get the wording and change the definition of things, like change the definition of racism to mean that all 50 different races in the world can be victims of racism, all apart from one, that's white people. It's nonsense. Absolutely nonsense. And I mean, you brought up to far left the far right and the up above.

And I think most people understand, you know, the up above the religious stuff we kind of all get, I think. The one thing I wanted to ask you about as well is, you know, you're very sensible and reasonable and you don't want anyone to be hated or mistreated or anything like that. Do you feel that there's been,

because of maybe the lack of proper coverage of the issue of grooming gangs, it has fallen onto the shoulder. as you might say, of people who, some of who may be leaning towards the far right, let's say, to speak up on that issue. And that's kind of where the problem, I think, for a lot of people comes in now, which is like, oh, you're talking about grooming gangs? You must be far right. Like, that's the connection to people often make, and you talk about how you get called all those things. Do you think that's just a convenient label, or do you think there is some truth that

that was an issue that was taken up by some people who were far right? Well, I think there's individual cases and individual grievances and people who are interested in the topic of grooming gangs are very often personally affected by it so either them or a family member has been a victim of it and that includes the men because there are male victims of grooming gangs as well of all backgrounds and races so whether though certain individuals have

have exploited the issue, as people would say, for personal gain. I find that wording, I'm uncomfortable with that particular wording of it because for people who are fighting for justice and have been fighting for justice for a very long time, who might be seeking funding to get justice, or to be seeking funding to raise awareness, even if they're doing it in a not very helpful way, or a potentially harmful, racist or destructive way, to label every one of them as far right,

I think you need to look at each individual case as it is. When you're looking at extremism, the definition of extremism is someone who is justifying violence to fulfill their religious, social or political objective. So that is what extremism is. And so if they're not looking for violent solutions to the problem of screaming gangs, then you can't really call them extreme as far right. They're probably just normal people, a lot of them.

Yeah. And how much do you think young girls have been deemed expendable because they're from a working class background? As in... Yeah. I mean, it's a horrible question to ask, because I presume from what I've read, this didn't apply to a lot of middle-class girls,

who are predominantly working class goals, vulnerable girls. So the authorities therefore thought not as important. There are a lot of middle class victims. There are because, believe it or not, middle class people get scared and get intimidated just as much as anybody else.

So it's really not hard. Once the perpetrators picked a victim, they don't really care what a family are like because they know that they've got guns, they've got weapons, they've got a whole gang of violent people who are going to, make threats and intimidate the girl.

Even just threatening to kill her dog, kill her cat, she's going to be scared enough to go along and do with whatever they say. Especially if, you know, there's part of a love element in it as well where she feels like she's loving them and there's some romantic relationship going on. But yes, you're right. There is a lot of, there are a lot of victims from working class families. a lot of families that are living close proximity to a lot of these groups

where the gangs live it's impacted them a lot harder and male family members within groups have been through the similar school system with similar problems with gangs they've been beaten up they've been attacked and different things and stabbed for having a Muslim girlfriend and that type of you know problem which all links into the same issue or you know they've been got into drug dealing at a very

young age by these gangs who use them as runners to deal drugs um whether their voices are not being heard perhaps they're not as articulate perhaps they can't express things um or perhaps people just don't want to listen to them or they're too scared to speak out and also a lot of them do think that they are racist because the police are telling them that they're racist. You know, I heard a story a couple of weeks ago of a survivor very recently

who the police have said she can't give evidence because she's racist because she called her perpetrators' Packies in the interview, in the video interview. Choice Hotels gets you more of what you value. Comfort in

it's calling your name save on the stay. Oh, and free waffles are yours to claim. We'll direct at storeshirtails.com. So just saying that word. Saying that word. Has meant her evidence has been thrown out. And look, I mean, it's a racial slur.

But as I said, you earlier in the interview, if you've gone through the experience that she's gone through, I mean, you can understand somebody might harbors and prejudice. I wouldn't put it past myself to harbor prejudice against people who targeted me on the basis of my identity, called me Jewish this and whatever, right? or in your case, why, you know, I'm not saying people should go around

calling each other package, I'm not saying that, but if you're the police officer in that situation, you've got to have some idea of balance in the situation, you know? Yeah. That's crazy. That's crazy.

But I think, again, it's that, it's this, if you don't, if you don't deal with the far left who are branding, it's like you've been tired and feathered. If you've been tired and feathered as being racist, gamin, Nazi,

fascist, you know, far right, then you are rubbish, basically. So if you don't deal with this issue that we've got this problem, we've got this fake branding of people and demonisation of white people who are raising this issue, then you're going to get people afraid to deal with it. And that does include police officers. They're going to be afraid of being tired and feathered. The judiciary are going to be afraid of being tired and feathered.

So they're not going to want to touch it. You know, politicians are going to be afraid of being tired and feathered. They're not going to want to be involved in dealing with this because it's such like a hot potato at the moment they want to pass it on to somebody else. But it's an abdication of responsibility, Ella. Your job as a police officer is to investigate and to charge rapists

and people committing these awful crimes. Yeah, and it's not hard. All they've got to do is say it's a racially religiously aggravated rape. They are the perpetrators of the racists. Yeah, that's all they've got to do. Right. And we don't. And also equally, the other thing, I mean, even if you are racist, you can still be raped, right?

You can be racist and be raped, right? Those are not mutually exclusive things, right? So even if someone is, you know, use the word Paki. I mean, all of this stuff is... She may have used that word because they were using that word about themselves, so I don't know where she's got that point. Yeah. I just listen to everything you're telling us,

and I have no words. I have no words to... And I don't understand. I think a lot of people would feel that way listening, and watching. How is this possible? How is it, have we got to the situation? Yeah.

And I suppose at some level, the question that a lot of people would be asking, and I know that you work with the government towards it, you know, how do we solve this? Keep talking about it. You know, there are things that are worrying me, like these diversity, inclusion and equality panels that are being set up in every company and every business.

I think we need to be aware that they must be balanced. They must include the anti-white anti-Western racism as a form of discrimination that needs to be countered as well as all the other forms of discrimination. You know, we need to not make it a crime for someone to say all lives matter. And for people not to be persecuted and attacked, even for saying white lives matter.

You know, when I saw that banner, going over the stadium. I can't help. I didn't feel loved. That was my reaction. I felt loved. And for people who have maybe just recently discovered

that one of their family members believes that all white lives matter or that white lives matter and now they've, or one of the colleagues in their department believes that white lives matter, you know, and they're shocked and horrified by that fact.

you know that by that belief hopefully listening to people like me listening to interviews like this they'll understand that that's not coming from a place of hatred or malice and it's not a counter attack on the Black Lives Matter movement it's a parallel

justice movement you know the justice for the white victims of racism is the parallel movement to justice for black victims of racism and we can do that together and we can be united together and we don't have to be split apart, we're divided in that.

We can all be supportive of each other. Yeah, it's very interesting you say that and then, you know, again, we come from, we work in a very woke industry and I see people sharing books like, you know. We used to work in the very work industry. I haven't been offered one geek for the last few men anyway, it doesn't matter.

Fuck them. You're in high demand. Yeah, in other ways. But, so for instance, sharing books, or like white fragility, you know, and spreading, you know, the memes and it doesn't help, does it? Really, as to... That particular book, I haven't read it. So I probably can't comment on it, but from what I've heard, it's upholding what I would call grooming gang ideology.

So it's upholding the idea that white people are trash, that white people should be punished. That's from what I've heard of the book. It's original sin. Yeah, that it's an original sin to be born white. It's something that you cannot change, you cannot get rid of, and that you have to atone for that in service to other people, in service to people of colour. And that is basically agreement in ideology. See, this is why, you see, the thing with the White Lives Matter thing is that if it was being used in the way that you use it, I'd agree with you. But I think there are also people who use it as a kind of FU to the Black Lives Matter thing as well.

And this is the reason that we've opposed identity politics from the start, because once you start going down this rabbit hole of going, this is a special group and this is a special group and that's a special group and that's a special. But these people, they're not special at all. In fact, they need, then you get into trouble because eventually, you know, Helen Dale, who we had on the show, you know, she said, I remember saying this in the 90s, you know, if you're going to have gay pride, at some point, someone's going to go with straight pride. Straight-bide, yeah. And this is the problem with all of this. And this is the far left that you talk about. That's where it all comes from, this ideology of getting everybody into their own little group and now white people need to advocate for themselves. That's not, you know, you talk about history,

not a healthy recipe. No, no. Not a healthy recipe. We need to go back to this idea that people are individuals, you know, and you can be racist against anyone, including white people. But this idea of pushing everybody into their own group, that's not going to work.

you know, it's obvious that America hasn't been taught about the white slave trade, but even in the UK, a lot of people have never heard of the white slave trade. They've never heard of the Berber slave trade. And the, you know, the Barbary slave trade and the Berbers in North Africa that attacked Europe for centuries, taking slaves away and to be trafficked throughout northern Africa into Asia and the Arab slave trade. you know white slaves were very valuable to them they were seen as exotic prized possessions and taken into harams and you know sold and used and you know that has been happening and

white people have been exploited and enslaved so to say that white people don't understand it don't know what it's like you know i've got a friend that i know through twitter and um I read her book and she was trafficked to northern Africa. My grandfather was taken to Germany as a slave laborer. The way we talk about slavery is just completely historical. We don't take into account the Middle Eastern Arab slave traders took more black slaves out of Africa than the colonial powers did. We don't talk about the fact that slavery has been a constant through history.

Look, people in my country in Russia were serfs until like 1870. or something, you know, as I said, slave labourers in Germany. Yeah. Like 70 years ago, right? The way we talk about is ridiculous. And we pretend that it's this unique moment in history, when in fact, right now is a unique moment in history, even though there is more slaves than ever...

Having said that about taking statues down. Yeah. You know, I did post out a tweet that, you know, I quite enjoyed seeing the group take down the Colston so that Edward Colston statue, because he was a known slave trader and you know, if you don't understand the history of Bristol and that a lot of money came through the slave trade

and to making a lot of the schools, a lot of the buildings, a lot of the town hall type places and named after Edward Colston who did a lot of philanthropy and a lot of good things as well. But people wanting to distance, people in Bristol wanting to distance themselves from that history, and wanting to make that break and make that symbolic gesture

of we don't support slavery. We do not want that to be a symbol of who we are as a country. I can support that. And I did, you know, as an artistic creative act in your industry, you can see, you know,

there's a long tradition of this type of thing. I'm not talking about taking down every statue in the whole country. This is a very different, issue but in selected cases where it's a public demonstration of a cleansing if you like of getting rid of part of the past that we no longer feel part of and we want to reject we want to move away from I can see that that could be healing for a lot of people yeah you know but what do you replace it with you do not replace it with a white trash a concrete statue

did you see the one that they replaced it with no no it's um it's a Barry Gannon. It's a white overweight guy. Oh, that one. Oh, that's terrific. Right. Yeah. So you don't treat it. You don't replace it with an insulting, disrespectful, hateful piece of art that is treating people like trash. You don't replace it with that. You respect everybody and you value everybody. That's what you need to replace it with something that shows that we are all important. and every life is precious.

As you know, we have one more question that we always ask our guest at the end. But before we do, I just wanted to tell you very briefly the story of how I first really kind of we both, I think, became awake to this issue in the way that we did. Because I read a little bit about it

and then I saw Sarah Champion's article, the MP for Rotherham. And she wrote an article, I think, in one of the tabloids about this, about this issue. And the article was quite sensible, I thought, based on reading it, but she got horrible backlash. And this was probably a year into us doing trigonometry,

and I emailed her to invite her onto the show. And she replied back saying she didn't feel comfortable talking about it anymore. And that's when I went, okay, look, we're comedians, we're bothered about political correctness because it's a nuisance to us. And, you know, at some kind of conceptual level, we can think. think about, you know, it's a principle of Western, says, all of this bullshit, really, you know, abstract bullshit. But then when I got that email from her and I was talking to Francis on the phone about it, I was like, no, no, political correctness is preventing a member of parliament

from standing up for people like you. Definitely. And that's when I was like, you know, this is a serious problem that we've got here. And it's very difficult to talk about and it's for an MP to be scared about it, tells you everything about it. So I just want to say on behalf of everybody's listened and watch this how courageous you are and how much we appreciate

coming on the show. Thank you. And same to you as well. You're very courageous. And I really appreciate you. We're just stupid, Ellen. We really haven't thought it through. I've got no idea what you got myself into.

It's fine. It's fine. But yeah, really, really appreciate that. Thank you so much. And all power to you. And I hope the work that you do with the government

leads to the positive change. So maybe actually, before we ask you a lot, question, one thing maybe that is good for us to ask is if anyone's watched this or they've listened to this, you know, if they've been affected by it, what advice would you give them? If they know someone who's been affected by it, what advice would you give them? If they don't know, they're not affected personally and a family member isn't, but they just want to do something positive to, you know, to prevent it from happening in the future, to help people who've been through

it. Yeah. What can people do? I would say to all the people who are feeling like I am right now, who are feeling doubly attacked, not just attacked from their attackers, but also from the left. I would say hang in there, wait, be patient, don't retaliate, don't think you have to go and fight for your country,

fight for whatever, don't be violent, don't set up armies and put yourself at risk. Be patient, hang in there, because the government will respond, the police will respond, they will wake up, And I do have faith that they will understand that this is far-left terrorism.

You know, as Antifa's been designated, the terrorist organization in America, eventually that is going to happen here. For people like you, don't despair. You're going to be in demand because you know how to create great education, great content to counter a lot of this far-left extremism, whether that's in schools or comedy clubs or whatever. you do, it's going to be needed. Just hang in there. Thank you. And Ella, the last question that we always end our interviews with is, what's the one thing that we're not talking about,

but we really should be? I think we're not talking about how to recover from spiritual abuse and that there can be recovery and that you can heal and that people can get out of it and get up again. You know, you can be knocked down many, many times. You can be knocked down in many ways, but you can always get up again. And that's a really, really powerful message to me interview with. Ella, thank you so much for coming. If people want to find you on social media, is it parlor that you're on now? Yeah, well, I'm on Twitter, but I'm not active on there, but there's a lot they can read on my pin tweets. There's lots of threads on there. They can read about all the different messages I'm putting out. But yeah, I'm on parli.

Ella Hill, Dr. Ella Hill. Dr. Ella Hill. Well, thank you so much for coming on. And thank you very much for watching. It's been a really emotional episode. And just to focus back on that, if at any point, if you've been affected by these issues, or if something has happened to you along these lines, please talk to somebody about it. And we will hopefully see you soon with another fantastic episode. Thank you very much. You went really down and then straight back up again at the end. You were just like, have you been affected by this? We'll see you another brilliant episode.

Thanks very much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much.