TRIGGERnometry - "I Was a Violent Criminal, Now I'm Helping Stop Violent Crime"

Episode Date: October 27, 2022

SPONSORED BY: Ridge Wallet. Use Code “TRIGGER” for 10% off your order at: https://www.ridge.com/TRIGGER SPONSORED BY: BetterHelp - online counselling and therapy - 10% off first-month https://BetterHelp.com/TRIGGER Sicarius McGrath was once a gang boss who ‘flooded the streets with guns’, ran extortion rackets and managed a brothel. He now works to reduce violent crime and rehabilitate offenders. To donate to his Youth Rehabilitation Project, click here: https://gofund.me/fc49a4c6 Find Sicarius on Twitter: https://twitter.com/smcgrath90 And Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/kaizen_k9_uk/ Join our exclusive TRIGGERnometry community on Locals! https://triggernometry.locals.com/ OR Support TRIGGERnometry Here: https://www.subscribestar.com/triggernometry https://www.patreon.com/triggerpod Bitcoin: bc1qm6vvhduc6s3rvy8u76sllmrfpynfv94qw8p8d5 Music by: Xentric | [e-mail] | https://www.xentricapc.com/ | Channel ID: UCo_8zzSxKeL3arKWVuP8wdQ Buy Merch Here: https://www.triggerpod.co.uk/shop/​​​ Advertise on TRIGGERnometry: [e-mail] Join the Mailing List: https://www.triggerpod.co.uk/sign-up/​​​ Find TRIGGERnometry on Social Media:  https://twitter.com/triggerpod​​​ https://www.facebook.com/triggerpod​​​ https://www.instagram.com/triggerpod​​​ About TRIGGERnometry:  Stand-up comedians Konstantin Kisin (@konstantinkisin) and Francis Foster (@francisjfoster) make sense of politics, economics, free speech, AI, drug policy and WW3 with the help of presidential advisors, renowned economists, award-winning journalists, controversial writers, leading scientists and notorious comedians. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I was manufacturing the firearms and the ammunition. Or having my gun, I felt safe. Because if anyone gave me shit, obviously, it ended up coming and I ended up shooting someone in Birkenhead, then Lisa, I think it was. What I pulled out, the weapon? He said, what are you going to do with that? So I just thought, you know what, fuck it out.

I just woke up, but we're in the mood. So I shot him. But lucky, by God's grace, he never died. Because if it went through his shit, a bit of the left, he would have been dead. I was in myself, I was watching a programme on Lippool, on a case in Lippool where a young kid, young kid was shot and I think that was the turning point in my life when I

thought nah what the fuck's happening I knew about it before and it never bothered me but when you watch the program and see his parents and no a lot of people don't believe me and say oh no it's bullshit you know you've got no emphy so why you'd be bothered about that but something clicked when I watched that program that was televised I knew about it never never fazed me it didn't bother me he was just collateral that I used to have viewed that as collateral damage and then when you I watched the program and see the shit his parents went through and his family. I used to put hundreds and hundreds of weapons on the street.

Probably put over a thousand weapons out. I didn't keep calculating how many it was, but probably put over a thousand weapons on the streets. And even though my weapons that done that crime, it's still, you know, imagine what of the crimes? And I thought, nah, that's not, it's so mature. You're peddling evil. tired of using bulky old wallets giving you a bulge where you don't want it to be. My old wallet was massive so it brought all the ladies to the yard which was a huge distraction and got in the way of my esteemed work on trigonometry. Ridge wallets have an incredible solution for you. This is mine,

sleek, stylish and with an industrial look to it. It can fit 12 cards with cash on the back using a clip like this one or a strap. We've got one for the whole team. I've got one to got one, Francis has one, even our producer Anton has one, but he's from Liverpool, so he flogged his on the black market. The great thing about Ridge is that they give you a lifetime guarantee, which means if you want, you can have only one wallet for the rest of your life. Ridge are so confident in the quality of their product. They will give you 45 days to test drive their wallets. That means you can get the wallet, use it, and if you don't like it, you can return it within 45 days. Because Ridge is such great guys, they're going to give you 10% off and free worldwide shipping and returns.

To take advantage of this incredible offer, go to ridge.com forward slash trigger. That's ridge.com forward slash trigger and use our special code, which is of course, trigger. Hello and welcome to Trigonometry. I'm Francis Foster. I'm Constantine Kisson. And this is a show for you if you want honest conversations with fascinating people. Our brilliant guest today is a former gang member who is now working to get kids out of gangs. Sikaris McGrath, welcome to Trigonometry. All right, how is? Okay.

It's good to have you on, man. Before we get into various stuff, we want to talk to you about, obviously, crime, prison, stop and search, a bunch of other stuff. But tell everybody what your journey through life has been, because it's unlike pretty much anyone that I've ever met, frankly. It's a bit of a colourful past. In the age of 15, I got involved in petty crime from the age of 21. that escalated the gangs and firearms weapons and then I got eight year prison sentence in 2004 for firearms and a shooting and then I was released 2009 and I got a gang injunction put on me in 2011 by my side police then 2012 I moved

to Lancashire to get away from the gang injunction and they put an operation on me, Langship Police, I think in 2014. 2016, I was arrested by Langship Police and I was jailed for eight and a half years later on that year. And then I was released in 2020. So I've served another small few prison centres for Pettycrime when I was a kid, but I've served two significant ones. So you were in prison two years ago?

Just over yet. I was released in July 2020, yeah. Yeah. I was released from open conditions, whereas on my first sentence, I was in high security, I was in category A on that one. And coming back to the beginning,

you say you got involved in petty crime. How does one get involved in petty crime? How does that happen? I think it was my upbringing, just the area I was living, my peers, the people that was around. You know, everyone I knew back then, everyone I mixed with every single person,

but I won. went on to lead a life of crime, went on to prisons. And there was one Jewish guy that had a mix with back then who went on to be successful. But apart from that, everyone went down the route of crime and criminality. Or they ended up getting addicted to drugs, drug addiction or, you know, with something evident was detrimental. There's no person that had mixed with other than that one

that's made a good life of themselves. And do you think a large part of it is not the area that you grew up in? Is it the fact that a lot of these kids maybe don't have dads in the home? Is it something that you could actually say that is the one thing? Or is it a combination of all? I'd say it's a combination of factors because everyone led a different life. Some people had a dad, some people never. Some people were parents were skinned and he lived in a smelly house. Some people never.

So it was different. I wouldn't say there was one factor, but I think it was a combination. But I think it was peer influence as a primary factor in leading people Australia. Like we started off on motorbikes and then we started, I think I got my first car when I was 11. I could drive when I was 11 years of age. I think the first one was a Shavette, a Vauxhall Shavet.

And I was, I was on the street at 11 years of age. I think the first time I got arrested when it was about 12, driving a motorbike, 13 maybe. But, you know, it just goes downed barrels and then that was that. But did that not scare you,

Sikarious? The fact that you were 13 years old and suddenly there's a police, officer there. That would put the fear of God into me as a young kid. No, the first time I got chased on a mopped. There was two of us on it. But it was a Roxhall Cavalier that the police were in in the infield and he chased us. They weren't even a chase because we weren't hardly moving. We was probably doing about 10 miles now, so they just come next to us and blocked us off. And they arrested me and took me the police station and rang me parents, my parents come and got me and that was that. I

think it was too young. I went like a, the police knew I was just, I was just a kid. Even though was antisocial. I weren't really doing nothing too bad, you know me. And you say by the age of 21, you'd progress to gangs and guns at that point? Yeah, firearms. I went to an area down south, south of Lippill, and bought a load of firearms off of these Asians that we knew. And then went back to Lippew, but that was a result of me being bullied by, like a load of Dorman in Lipp. There was a load of Dorman bullying me. they had nightclubs and run doors and that so they were bullying me for money and in the end they couldn't take no more so just went and bought all the firearms come back and just that was that

was that and then from there I just got I end up manufacturing and distributing firearms selling firearms so I think one thing's leads to another but there's always like a gateway offense there's always a gateway into crime and mine was petty crime and then the bullying resulted in me getting involved in firearms and gangs for I think it was primarily in in the first instance for my own protection. And then it becomes a habitant, it becomes habitual behavior, like carrying a weapon all the time,

a firearm all the time. I was, when I got arrested in 2003, and there was a firearm next to my bed, loaded firearm next to my bed, I was arrested in Grange Mountain, Whittle. So it becomes habitual, it becomes normal for me to carry a gun. Sometimes I carry two.

I'll just say before you ask the question, Francis, we have a big American audience, and if they're watching this, they're thinking, well, guns, know we've got guns. But in this country, having firearms, I mean, that is a very serious offences. It is 100%. I think it's five-year minimum sentence. And it is, it's rare. Firearms are common, but they're not as common as knives as such because they're expensive to purchase. The more difficult to source where there's a knife, every kitchen has a knife. I never used to

carry knives. I used to carry guns. And that's what I used to feel comfortable with. I would never felt comfortable carrying a knife it way for me. I used to, you know, I used to feel safe carrying a firearm. Sikoris, you use the word bullying. Now, I don't think you mean bullying how a lot of people think about it, where you get, for instance, a lot of people think bullying is people making nasty comments to them,

not being very nice. What do you mean by bullying? Bullying consists of many things, you know what I mean? Bullying can be in the playground, but the bullying I'm referring to, was, I think I was about 20 years of age at the time. And these group of men, fully grown men, dormant, there were both three cars, pulled up to me and took my car off me.

Then when I met them that night, and they kidnapped me and were trying to chop me from off. It was only a threat to scare me, but they put the shit up me. I was terrified. I was petrified. I wouldn't go out the door. I was felt suicidal. I went to the police. I remember it was a Shububleau police station. And the police didn't give a shit. In other words, they were saying, you deserve what you get, your little. never said that we're in their own words you don't understand what I'm saying because

I was a pest but I was only a petty criminal very petty criminal and as a result there was no one that could help me so in the end as a human being I was at cracking point and I thought I'm not going to defend myself against these people so I just went and bought blow the guns but I got different people to throw in the pot and then I purchased them cheaper and then charged them a bit of and then took my own few out of it, you know what I mean? Because I never had the money to purchase them at the time. So I wangled it in a way that I come out with a few guns.

And then from that, we went into manufacturing them. So we went into making them, deactivated them, and would reactivate them and make the ammunition, and then we'd settle on and got arrested for that in 2004, I think it was. And I ended up getting eight years jail altogether. And how easy is it to do that, to take to that process? Because you've just made it sound like it's quite simple. Is it simple or is it actually does it require quite a bit of talent, know-how, etc?

It's like saying it's building a house, simple. To a builder and a bricklayer, it's simple. But to me and you, it's difficult. Whereas manufacturing firearms and building firearms and reactivating them, it's simple to someone that knows how to do it or what they're doing. Just like a mechanic, it's simple to repair the car, but I can't repair the car, if you understand what I'm saying. Back then, I had my own big unit, a big factory.

And back then, I think I'd done it for three years, two, three years. It was easy. But I used to enjoy doing it, do you know what I mean? Sometimes I do 10 a day, sometimes I do 15 in a day. It depends who we had, they help me, and what older they are. But, you know, it become habitual, but it all stemmed from the bullion. But I weren't a full shilling. I was gone in the head.

I think the bullion pushed me over the end. It pushed me over the edge with a combination of other factors, what happened earlier on in my childhood. the bullion was destroyed. I broke the camel. That made me just go. And there was not an air in me. I never had no rational thinking.

I was deluded. It was gone. I was hearing voices. I was absolutely, I was fucked. There was no part of you that was sitting there going, I'm now manufacturing 15 firearms a day. Sometimes it was 10. You know, I'm just saying on average, it was quite a lot.

No, what I'm saying, the number is not what I'm getting that. I've gone from, I'm a petty criminal. to I went and bought a lot of guns, I carry a gun, I have a gun by my bed, and I'm making guns and selling them. Like, was that, were you ever present to the scale

of like what you would do? I was mixed up in it. I was, my head was gone, I was diluted, but even when I'd be on the toilet, I'd have my gun there, clean on the toilet,

and I'd be ejecting the magazine and putting the bullets back in. I was, that's the type of, I'd never even used to wear gloves. I was that irrational and that reckless. I'd just put the bullets in my finger. I used to make the ammunition I used to make the ammunition

We had the press as well So we put the powder in We put the heads on The primers in the bottom Do you know what I mean So I was manufacturing the firearms And the ammunition But having my gun

I felt safe I'd go anywhere I'd go in the area where I was dating a girl From Bech and Ed world And back then The Beirkenheaders Just want to fight me

Because it's from Ripwell And I weren't a fighter So having me gun on me Used to make me comfortable To go in wherever I want to go because if anyone gave me shit obviously it ended up coming that I end up shooting someone in Beaconad and Lisa I would think it was I end up speaking to him afterwards and apologising a couple of well I was away I spoke to him on the phone and a guy called

Gareth I don't want to give a second name but it was a guy called Gareth who went to jail for I shot him and I think it went through his shoulder and I had of his arm or somewhere in that area looking at every went through his chest but I went to jail for shooting him and the girl I was where at the time ended up dating him while I was in jail. So it was a bit of a bizarre one. You know, she stopped coming up on a visit and then one day I rang her

and she's in bed with him. And I spoke to him and I said, put him on and I said, look, you know, what's that and what's that? He confronted me initially, him and two of his friends confronted me. They stabbed the tire on my car. And then when I pulled the, what I pulled out, the weapon, he said, what are you going to do with that?

So I just thought, you know, what fucker out? I just woke up, but we're in the mood, so I shot him. But lucky, by God's grace, he never died. Because if he would have went through a bit of the left, he would have been dead.

So I think it was, you know, it was a blessing in disguise that I got that prison sentence then because if I never went to prison when I did, 100% it would have ended up killing someone. Yeah.

There was another time when I went to Wade Smith in town of the Poole City Centre and he had two handguns on me. And, you know, I was wanting to see these dormant and I wouldn't have fought twice about pulling the guns out and firing at them.

And I could have hurt, seriously hurt or killed in us and people. And, you know, I think back, in retrospect, I think back and think, I was, I'm glad that I went to prison when I did. But I could have killed someone or multiple people. So, but when you're involved in that, you don't think, you're not thinking. Well, I certainly definitely wasn't thinking straight. I wasn't thinking rationally. Do you mean?

Every day I get up, it was my gun. Where it wasn't, sometimes at the car, I'd have. One of the weapons I had was a barretta. I used to put it in a case and I put the case up to dash. So if the police stopped me, obviously they wouldn't find it, you know what? But it was, I don't know, looking back, it was a bad time in my life.

I was, I'm not always doing wrong, but I weren't intending to it aired anyone innocent people. It was just unfortunate that the guy, this Garf guy with his two mates was, he'd been on the piss, he was drunk. He'd seen me, obviously didn't like me because it was from Liverpool and saying, got off our estate your Scouts, it was in a leasehold and will.

It was just unfortunate that. He said what he said, and that was that. And I went over to sign and speak him out of it. Just I'd give her a miss. The next thing he's confronted me. So, you know, I responded wrongly. It went right what I don't. I regret what I done, but I'm just glad he never died.

You sound the way you talk about it as if you were incredibly paranoid. Do you think that's a lot of a reason why we see kids younger and younger, particularly in places like London carrying knives? because they're all terrified. Yeah, but even, I wouldn't say, I weren't scared of death from my enemies. I was more scared of not having nothing. If you've got something.

Like when I had the fire arm, for example, I'd feel safe. I wouldn't fear nothing. I wouldn't feel death. I'd fear the police, don't get me wrong. But when you've got that gun, you don't fear death. Even though there's still a risk you can be killed,

you don't foresee the consequence. And without that gun, you're shitting yourself. So I can imagine applying the same logic to the kids who carry knives. They're obviously, I think a lot of them are scared. If they see a rival, if they see a... Because a lot of them can't fight, I was the same. So they can't fight. So that's why a lot of them carry the weapons.

Because if they haven't got that weapon and they come across their enemies, then they're in trouble. So the fear is you're going to be unprepared and unable to defend yourself. Yeah, something along them lines, yeah. That's right. And then there's different methods as protection. Some people aren't affiliated to gangs, but do you think these kids are thinking

everyone else is carrying a knife? So I want to carry one because they're scared and then there's the ones who are affiliated to gangs and they've got rival gangs. And they think if you haven't got my knife on me or my gun, whatever they're carrying, then they're going to be in trouble if they come across the rivals,

if they're coming across their adversaries, you know what I mean? So I'd say a vast majority carry for self-protection for whatever reason because they've got gang rivals or just because they feel scared or vulnerable. There's numerous factors, but a lot of it

does ball time to protection. And how did you get involved in gang specifically? Were you like a leader of a gang? Not initially. No, I, initially I clinged on through a gang that were fighting

with the dormant. So I sort of clinging on to them. I was getting in touch them and then I end up selling a few of them guns. So they weren't great guns that I were selling. They were just cheap, shitty guns,

but they were still powerful. We used to test them on containers and cars. and the metal containers on building sides. They were putting all in them, they were putting all in Cados. So you can imagine what they're doing to the body, if you mean. Did you never think about

when you were selling these guns on? Obviously, you know, they'll be used for protection, most of them won't be used. But you used one yourself. Did you not think, hang on, this could be used to kill someone here? No, I didn't think like that. Don't get me wrong.

There was once or twice when someone went, they wanted to go and do something, and I thought, nah, I don't want to get them to fuck that. and the rare occasions when I'd refuse to sell a gun someone if I thought, even though we weren't asked about who was it and what was, if I thought someone was going to be like

assassinated with a gun, I wouldn't, that was a bit too much. I didn't want to go to that level. Do you know what I mean? Because even though I was reckless, I didn't ever want to kill any of my enemies or these dormant. I didn't want to kill them.

But I was just reckless. I could have done it through my own recklessness. My intention was if I see them, I'm just going to shoot them in the legs or shoot them in the stomach. You know what I mean? That one on the lease, I shot him near the chest area, but I just woke up and weren't thinking straight.

So it would have been recklessness more than malice or intent that I would have ended up killing someone. You know what I mean? Yeah. So it was looking back, it was scary. It was massively scary. And I think the prison, even though my first sentence didn't rehabilitate me, I think it was necessary 100% because I was going where,

I was getting worse and worse. And the more people you shoot, the more confident you become as an individual as a shooter. It becomes a more common, a common practice. You know what I mean? It's just like a fighter, the more people you beat up with your fists, the more confident you're going to be, and the more willing you're going to be to have a fight. You know, the more you get self-confidence, you know,

and that's what I definitely with guns, 100%. I want to get to prison in a second because we really want to talk with you about that. But before we do, just take us there chronologically. So you get involved with this gang because you've been bullied by these doormen, you've got guns, you've sold them guns. How do you then get more involved in the gang?

or do you? Initially, I clung on to the gang. Yeah. And then once I've established myself, then I've ended up going my own way. I'd become like a loner. And then I was linking with Asian gangs and black gangs in the south of the country.

So, and then there was all different gangs coming to me to purchase firearms. So then I was affiliated to, from just being clinking on to one gang in Lipville. At the time, the biggest gang in the city, they were asserting. group of individuals and I clung onto them. I went high up in that gang.

I was just a cling gun because your enemy is my enemy. But we have something in common. So that's why I clung on to them. Because I thought they're fighting against these dormant. So I need to cling on to them so I'm not on my own. And then once I become more confident and more established in myself, I weren't really asked that.

I didn't really need them as much. You understand what I was saying? I already, because then it developed me confidence so I was confident standing on my own two feet. And you were selling guns to all these other games. to all these other gangs at the same time. Gere with selling guns, vast majority of people who, there was a couple of times when I refused to sell.

People fire arms because I thought, because they told me what you're going to use them for. And I don't want to be involved in that. And I don't want to take, you know, so I said, nah, it's enough of me. But the vast majority, if someone has just come to me and ask with a gun, I'd sell them.

Or they end up getting arrested. The police put an operation on me and they arrest me for manufacturing and selling guns in 2,000 and 4. Yeah. Well, talk about that in a sec. How much would you be selling these guns for? Back then, the sentences for firearms were low. It weren't five-year minimum.

It was like, I know there was people outside clubs that were getting neck with guns, getting two years. You know what I mean? So it was a low sentence for guns then. Back then, I got four year three months for a firearm, and that was a big sentence for a gun. That was big. And plus a warn of four shilland.

The judge knew where weren't a full shilland. It was the main judging of the Pearl Grand Court, Henry Globe, who sentenced me. and he was very fair to me because he knew he was just a deluded kid we'd went off the rails and he had serious mental health problems

I was bad a psychiatrist and a report to me and I went there I mean I was absolutely gone in the head so yeah I got a big sentence for the firearms but at the time if he was doing 10

I'd do 10 for 3 grand for example so wake out 300 10 firearms for 3 grand for 3,000 yeah for 3,000 pounds so 300 quid yeah for one firearm

yeah but that was in bulk Whereas these days The price has gone right up Whereas back then he went in his expenses You could get an half decent handgun Back then for like a grand $1,200 quid $1,500 max

Whereas now The prices are like Three grand Two and a half grand Three grand Things like that Even Years ago

The price went right up Do you know Back then he was And most of ones I were doing Were reactivated ones The vast majority of guns I put on the street in sold We're all reactivated

So do it do pennies to buy We were buying them for like 60 quid, 80 grid, 90 grids. It'd take me half an hour to reactivate one. We'd change the battle and make the ammunition. That was it. It was as simple as that. And so you were rapidly turning over all that money. So you were making quite a lot of money at the time then?

I was making quite a lot of money, yeah. I was spending there. As it was, you know, we had the rents on the units and the factories, what we had. I had me house rents, and I was buying stupid little money. motorbikes and I don't know, you spend a lot of money on food, eating out all the time. Yeah, exactly. When he was talking about the price of guns, I'm like, fuck me, inflation's affecting everything. But, Sycarius, so you were going through that and you had these

psychological problems and so would you mind just talking about that a little bit? Like, how bad were things for you? You said you were hearing voices. Was that? Bad. I was bad on a scale of 1 to 10. I think it was a 9. But the judge recognized that sensing me. The two guys who got Nick with me, they were older, they were in the 50s and stuff like that. They got Nick with, I might be wrong on the number here, but I'm sure they got Nick combined total, they got Nick with about 30 firearms roughly, activated, deactivated, whatever, 30 firearms and paraphernalia and so on. They got five years and five and a half years. I was a kid and got four year, three months. So in comparison, I got a harsher sentence than them.

I mean, I think the judge who sent me on the guns was David Bolton. But he slammed me more than them for one gun and for manufacturing. I got four or three. And I was deemed to be low down the rank. I was just a kid with bad mental health problems. And they were two adult men who were ordering them from America. They were on a bigger scale. And they only got around the same sentence as me.

So you go to prison and the vast majority of people who watch our show and listen to our show have no idea what prison is like. Tell us what's it like that journey, your first day. Well, for me, because I upset that many people. This in 2004, I went to prison. The first prison I went to was Walton in 2004 when I got knocked on these gun charges. When I went to prison,

I had every day was in might be in Walton prison because he upset that many people. And because it was all drug dealers and criminals that are upset. I never upset, you know, my average job public. It was drug dealers, criminals, and, you know, I upset that many people. How do you mean when you say you upset them? How did you upset them?

harmed them robbed them we used to extort drug dealers took the watches one of the abets they used to have well I wouldn't say it was an abbot but we used to rob drug dealers watches so I would wait by the house or a gun

when they pull up I creep up to the car but a gun to them and take the watch like the Rolex or whatever watch they had so I was robbing watches off the drug dealers to your Omar Little from the wire basically what's that

you haven't seen the wire the wire you'd enjoy it or you might enjoy it okay So you're robbing drug dealers for their watches. And when you go to prison, that's kind of what happens slightly spoiler to this dude I'm talking about in the TV series. So you're robbing drug dealers, you're pissing them off, obviously, and then you go to prison and they're all there.

Not that they're all there. They were still outside, but they was putting hits on me from outside. They were ringing people in the prison. You had mobile phones back then in 2004, and they paid a screw. I don't know if I say his name on you. A prison officer should have a site. Peter's, he attacked me. And there was an investigation.

So he was paid or influenced by these gangs. Do I mean? Because he got me in the office and I was saying, So just to be clear, drug dealers paid a prison officer to attack a criminal like you in prison. Yeah. When you say attack, what did he do? Well, he bothered me and he was saying there's no guns in here.

You called me a shipbag and whatever. Right. But there was an investigation into it. And not an ever come. The investigation was never concluded. But he made me life-held Peters. and another time they opened my door on the landing about half six in the morning

someone coming in arm with boiling water but the officer the officer turned a blind out of it I don't know what officer that was I don't know if it was Peter's out I don't know or you know there was hits getting put on my left right and centre because I was in prison I was vulnerable but I always swore when I get out I'm going for us

and when I got out I did go for them and I made the lives well not every one of them but I got a lot of them back you know what I mean and a lot of them from will and when I got out of that um sentence I got a lot I got a lot of them back to me so I made the lives difficult support I'm not saying it was right what I don't but I was just full of hate and anger and I thought I'm coming for you's and I never done nothing very bad for them a lot of them I just took money off and got

compensated for what they done but you know it is what it is it's water over ducks back it's done people who don't be wrong they forgive them and after them are probably dead anyway and in jail whatever I don't know don't know what they're up to but That was the past. Wow. This episode is sponsored by Better Help. Hey, Constantine, do you want better mental health? I'm from Russia. We don't have mental health.

So how do you deal with mental health? You drink vodka, then go out and wrestle bear. If you live, you feel better. If you die, you're not real men. What about the bear's feelings? It's Russian bear. It has no feelings. People don't always realize that physical symptoms, like headaches, teeth grinding, and even digestive issues can be indicators of stress.

And let's not forget about doom scrolling, not sleeping enough. Sleeping too much, under-eating and overeating. Sleeping too much, under-eating. This is Western disease. Therapy has really helped me in my life to concentrate and focus. It's really important to have someone impartial who you can talk to about the tricky issues that you're struggling to deal with. Therapy has played a really important role in helping me to deal with my ADHD and become better in all areas of my life.

Why is he telling them how weak he is? Drink vodka feel better. BetterHelp is customised online therapy that offers video, phone and even live chat sessions with your therapist. So you don't have to see anyone on camera if you don't want to. Trigonometry funds get 10% off their first month at BetterHelp.com forward slash. trigger, especially if they're not real men. That's B-E-T-E-R-H-E-L-P-P-com slash trigger.

Did you not see it as you putting yourself in real danger that you're going to not only mugging people, but mugging drug dealers. You must have known that at some point there was going to be retribution for that. Because, you know, when you've got firearms, you feel invisible. That's what, like, when they didn't have nothing.

I feared even getting a slap. Do you understand what I'm saying? But when you've got that firearm, I'm speaking like two decades ago, do you know what I mean? So 2001, 2002, going back then, people didn't really carry firearms, very, very rare. And once you had that gun, it makes you feel invisible.

It makes you feel like you've got a cloak of invincibility around you, like no one can harm you, no one can do nothing. Because most of vast, vast, 99.99% of my enemies didn't carry guns. I had the upper hands. Do you know what I mean? So I used to go on, I was back then I was 10 stone, 10 a half stone went no teeth.

And I've went to meet these, something's happened in Whirl. I've sterilized some fella, the drug dealer. And he went to these big steadheads, these big juice heads. They were like 23 stone plus two brothers called Sean and Ben from Beech and Ed.

And I've ended up going on to meet with them by this cafe of Laird Street, I think it was called Laird Street in Wyrl. and I pulled up. I was in some stolen car and I had an gunned down my waistband and I pulled up. I figured I was like 10 stone, 10 and a half stone.

A pair of shorts on with two pieces of noodle legs. Like my legs were like noodles. A pair of white two-sciped socks on, missing teeth and a vest. I look like a drug addict. Just 10 stone little snotty nose kid getting out of a car to two big 23 stone men. And I just went straight up and I had to put them on the back foot. I had a gun on myself.

They would have done it and they would have shot both. Well, it's put them on the back foot. Straight away, imagine you being 23 stone. You and your brother, two years are absolute monsters. Everyone was shit scared them over there

because they can fight. They were big, they were powerful, strong. And then from little 10-stone, a scruffy kid pulls up and flies out over to us. It puts them back. It was the element of surprise

and they must have thought, who the fuck is this 10-stone crackhead coming up and putting... I weren't horrible to them. I just said, you know, what? And that was that. It was put to bed. But I'm glad they never said that anyway because I would have shop over them. But that's the type of character I'd become. I had no fear when he had a gun on me.

I didn't care who you was, what he was. It didn't come and meet you with me. He said, come on my own, just with my gun, and that's all I needed. So I can understand why kids carry weapons because it gives them that sense of security. Yeah. I'm not justifying it by any means. No, no, no, no. I'm giving you the reasoning behind it based upon my past understanding. Yeah. Well, that's the reason we wanted to have you on

because you're someone who's lived that life but you've moved on and we'll talk about the way you've moved on in a bit. But you get locked up. 2004, yeah. Is that good for you? Does that help? Well, in Walton, I had a life of hellbo.

When I went to all course, I was all right after then. And then from all course, I end up in high security. I went to the Long Latton. And that, you know, that sentence it never rehabilitated me, but it done me well

because when I got out after that sentence in 2009 I took a back seat then I went front line and weren't flying around with guns all the time on me I went because I took a back seat that sentence did knock me back a bit so I went more organized more more backseat type

do you know I mean? Okay and then what happens from there? 2009 I was still involved in gangs and criminality to a mareside and I was linking my gangs in London and across the country most of them were Asian, Asian gangs and black gangs. And then

2011, they put it a gang injunction on my Meerside Police. So eventually I've approached him and said, look, if I move out of my side, will you ease something? I couldn't be more than three people at once. I weren't allowed with three people. I'd come out of my house in Anfield and the police would be video

on me with video cameras. Not covertly. I mean overtly. There was a big van there. And they followed me with a video camera when I was walking my dogs. I was saying, fuck off. And then I've went to the ASDA. And they're in the ASDA. They followed. of me everywhere. It was, that's how, it was a disruption tactic. Right. And, you know, it was effective. Did they stop me committing crime? Probably not, but combined with what they were doing,

and then they put the gang injunction on me, that got rid of me out of the pool. Even though it never rehabilitated me, it moved the problem. I had a lip pool, and then I went to Lancashire then. But when I went to Lancashire, I become more business-minded. I set up businesses, companies, and I was still involved in organised crime but it was nowhere near on the level of what I was doing it was way it wasn't fire arm related there's more

protection records extortion and things like that and who would you be targeting with the protection rackets and the extortion wealthy wealthy drug dealers do I mean but

they weren't necessarily from Lancash but I had a security company up there and we used to get a lot of legit work do you know what I mean but we used to do mediation as well so two gangs were fighting two drug dealing gangs with mediate and fire the middle ground so there was there was on one of the mediation's i think he got paid 10 grand some of the others were five grand but i was always skinned i never had money because my outgoons are too big do you know what so and after that the lancash police

put an operation on me and they ended up getting eight and a half years for what um a brothel running a brothel and there was a blackmail where I tried to recover 120,000 pounds. Someone, then someone, me co-defendant, then someone 120,000 pounds. They were all dodged, you know what I mean? But they come to court and make out like the legit. And I'm not critzizing them because, you know, I don't go.

Because you were blackmail in them. Yeah, right. Yeah, I used inappropriate measures to try and recover the money. Some of the stuff I got accused of, I honestly never done. Like, I got accused of breaking winter. I never broke a window. That was me called here, you don't know that.

But I got dragged into his crap. And because the police wanted me that much, they were willing to use any means to get me. But a lot of the things, vast, vast majority of the stuff I got accused of, and I generally never done it. But they would regret it. No, because I needed that sentence.

So that sentence done me good. Again, so the sentence in 2016, even though I went to prison, for things I never done. I think I got six of quittles and I got one guilty. The brothel, yeah, I plead the guilt of that, but the blackmail. Most of the stuff I was accused of, it was my co-dee was doing that. And why was the second prison sentence, the one that transformed you,

the one that rehabilitated you, or helped to rehabilitate you? I was in my cell and I was watching a program on Lippoor, on a case in Lippew where a young kid was shot. And I think that was the turning point in my life when I thought, nah, what the fuck's happening? I think it was I knew about it before and it never bothered me but when you watch the program and see his parents and I know a lot of people don't believe me

and say oh no it's bullshit you know you've got no infies so why'd you be bothered about that but something clicked and seeing a note seeing his parents and you think nah the shit that went through it was that was my turning point you're talking about is it Reese yeah I don't remember son name Reese Jones yeah yeah he was 11th years old. And he wasn't involved in anything.

He just got shot. But when I watched that program, that was televised, I knew about it, never faced me. It didn't bother me. He was just collateral. I used to have viewed that as collateral damage. And then when you watch the program and see the, the shit his parents went through and his family. And you think, I was, I used to put, even though it was years and years before, I used to put hundreds and hundreds of weapons on the street. Probably put over a thousand weapons. I didn't give. calculating of how many it was but probably put over a thousand weapons on the streets and

even though it went my weapons that done that crime it's still you know imagine what are the crimes and i thought no that's not it's scumit you're peddling evil you know same as when people deal heroin they're just peddling evil on the streets and that that's what i don't for for years from 2001 until me arrest in 2004 and you're putting that much misery and shit on the street it's you don't know your victims are going to be you know what I mean because whoever's buying the guns they don't tell you what they're using them for because if they did I wouldn't I wouldn't assol them on them so they just buy them for whatever reason and imagine how many people have got harmed and hurt as a result of me doing

that and hopefully it just clicks or something from that day I just I changed from that day not not stayed away but my change was gradual and I built upon that and it was reinforced by charities engaging with me whereas when I I've written that charity, Rees Jones's family who's a charity connected to them. They haven't replied directly but they sent it to someone else and then they've responded

and that gave me some motivation do I mean and then mudsers against guns responded to me when I read to them and that gave me motivation to continue on that path because they were acknowledging me they weren't saying no no you're a piece of shit the misery of course we don't want to know you

or we don't want to engage with you they were acknowledging me even though we never work with them when I got out had a meet with one or two of them but still at that time it gave me that inspiration to push on on the right path you know what I mean but if they never rip back to me then who knows what path I would have took upon release

but that gave me my inspiration and my path to go down so what do you say to a kid because you know I'm listening to you and I'm remembering me at 17 or 18 or whatever and you're talking about well you get a knife or a gun and you feel powerful and every boy wants to feel powerful

and able to defend themselves when they're 17, right? You've got money. You know, you don't have to take shit from anyone. I wouldn't say you've got money because I was always skint. Right. I was earning good money sometimes, but I was always skint. I never had money. Yeah.

I couldn't pull five grand out. I couldn't pull ten grand. But that's what some kids think, right? You're going to have loads of money. Yeah, obviously that's what they think. But I've never met a rich gang member. Really? Never? Not once.

I've ever met a wealthy gang member. Because whilst, I know many wealthy drug dealers, you know, and wealthy criminals. But when you gangbanging, shooting in each other on the street, you can't make money. The police are all over you. You're attracting attention.

And that's why a lot of drug dealers are doing well. Don't like the attention. They don't like the rigmarole and the drama. So they don't do all that. All the big OcGs, the vast majority. Don't get me wrong. You might get someone shopper, be on the sly or the pay to get it done, for example.

They're not running around gangbanging. They're not carrying firearms gangbanging on the street to Lipville or the street to whatever city. because they're focused on making money. They're more organised, more better structured where the gangbangers, they're the ones carrying the knives and carrying the guns and they're the ones that never make money.

Don't get me wrong, they might have a county land and then my grandaday. Well, it doesn't last. And I've gotten on the show for it. They'll go out and buy a $1,000 coat or 600 pounds shoes, and they've got a girlfriend their own who doesn't work, and she's high-maintenance because she's gone

for that type of boy, that type of lad. So he's financing her. He's fine, that's in him. They're eating out all the time. They're spending money, stupid watches, and, you know, they're going 30-grids on air-cut and going to clubs, getting champagne.

So they're always skins. The money, they're only low-key drug dealers. You don't really get many gangbangers that are high-up and that have got a high net worth. That makes sense. Well, what about the other stuff? You know, I want to be powerful. I want to defend myself.

What do you say to kids like that? What do you mean to talk them out of it? Yeah. Well, how do you, because that's one of the things you work on. Definitely, as I say, professionals, all these youth workers, not, they think I'm too controversial. But my argument to every professional

and every youth worker, your approach isn't working. So I'm probably the most controversial reformist there is, do you know what I mean? Because I speak to them, like, I was at a centre once and I called one of the kids a little bastard, do you know what I mean? And I got frowned up on, all the youth workers were like, oh, we don't want you back, we don't want you back.

they're a pro-chain working and I told him that I said you're a pro-chain working and that same kid they were called the little bastard he's asked me ever since I want to work with him I want to work with him I want to work with him because he was attached to me he wanted to work with me he wanted to engage me he doesn't want to engage he's at a PRU

alternative provisions of pupil referral unit so he's been expelled from school no one can manage this kid no one can control him but he wants to work with me even though I'll call them a little bastard but these youth workers these two do go to youth workers who haven't got a clue

They've got no practical experience. The everything they've learned is from a book, uni, college, whatever. And they can't control these kids. They don't speak the same language. It's just like an Arab and a Jew. One speaks Arabic. One speaks Hebrew.

You're not going to get constructive dialogue from them. Do you know what I mean? So you need a middle person who can translate. You understand what I'm saying? These youth workers... So what are you saying? What's the approach that these kids need, in your opinion? It depends on the kid.

a black kid in London will be different to reform a white kid than Liverpool. They've got different ideology and all the goals and the targets are the same financial and power and guns and status. Yeah. That might be similar

or the same, but the ideology in the way they speak in the way it's different. So the method what will work on a white kid in Liverpool won't necessarily work on a black kid in Bechham or Brickson for example. say so it depends who you're reforming and it depends on the approach you're going to take.

But every kid I've engaged with, every young person have engaged with, there's always been 100% receptive. And my approach, my strategy, I've tested that over the past, I'd say the past 12 months approximately. It's been tested on it over 100 kids. When I go to youth centres, there'll be like 30 kids plus. And every single time, my approach and why I come across, it's been 100% receptive.

And so what tactics do you use? The first time you meet them, what do you do? How do you speak to them? I know it's different depending on the kid. Hopefully it's got to be an icebreaker, but there was one kid at a youth centre. I'm not a different youth centre I went to. He was a bar. He was young.

He must have been 12, 13. He was one of the worst kids there. And he pointed him out, said he was the worst one. And he started giving me shit, calling me whatever he was saying. and I've given him shit back and said your fucking little prick I said they'll put you in that wheeliebin in a minute.

So I've come across I've used instrumental aggression you don't understand what I'm saying and the youth the professionals there was there was a some fella there who worked at the centre

and he's looked at me like that and walked away he was laughing but shaking his head do you know what I'm saying I put a kid some kids from 13 year old I put you in the fucking wheeliebin

if you carry on you understand what I'm saying but it broke the ice yeah and then I've talked of my outside and spoke to him. And I spoke his language. And my communication with him,

he listened to me and he apologised. What do you mean by you spoke his language? I spoke his language. Like, youth workers, one. You'll never see a youth worker saying to a kid, your fucking little prick, I put you in a bin. He wouldn't even call a kid a prick. Yeah. Or a little bastard or your fucking, your little co-heed. You don't speak the language.

Or a youth worker I'd never say who the fuck he's speaking to. Yeah. He don't because they've got too much accountability. They've got to satisfy these big wigs above them. And they don't come from that background on these youth workers. Even the ones who walk around with the jeans by the knees and pretend they come from that background. They ain't that guy.

And the kids see that they're fake, the counterfeit. They're full of shit. Excuse me, language, but they're full of shit. And it's just like the youth workers, some of them are black and they think they can communicate with every black kid. That's bullshit. That's bullocks just because you're the same color. doesn't mean these kids respect you.

It's just like a white youth worker. It doesn't mean every white youth worker. Every white kid is going to respect a white youth worker. And I'm a massive critic of youth workers and professionals because they've got the wrong approach and I think they're making the problem worse than it is. How so? Because they don't speak the same language as the kids.

They haven't got the right approach. They're trying to pussyfoot and tiptoe around these kids and they go, oh, you can't speak to them like that. You might traumatising, traumatising. They're fucking walk him in arm with an angle. You know, and you're saying I'm going to traumatise me. You're fucking maddie. He's just stabbed some other kid down the road 10 minutes ago.

And you're saying I'm going to traumatize him by calling him a little cuck or telling him I'll put him in a wheelie bin. I'm saying, for example, doesn't mean the kid that's spoke to who's just stabbed or shot him. I'm not saying that. These are the type of kids that are walking the streets. So you speak the language and you assert your authority. That's one of them. 100%. Yeah.

Okay. And what else? How do you get over the fact that you've got a bunch of young people in this country who don't have an affinity to anything who feel like the only way of getting success or status or respect or power or whatever is to get a gun or a knife. How do you deal with that?

Yeah, but look, if a kid says to me, I feel powerful when I've got a gun. I say, yeah, I agree, because I did the same. And I felt powerful. It's great. It gives you a buzz. And I can understand the buzz you're getting. However, it ain't going to make your money.

you might rob a watch or you might rob a few ounce of coke off some drug dealer when you're putting your gun to him but you'll spend that and then you're going to go back out next week or in a few days and have to do the same eventually you're going to get jail

you're going to be set and you're going to get a five plus if you use the gun you get longer but even if you get caught with your gun going to get five years plus and you'll be sat in jail that's two grand or two ounces of crack what you've just robbed off someone

if you sell a grand or 15 ton 10 won't last your five years your post lauders are you can spend 25, 30 good a week. So times that by 52. My match isn't great. What is it? Do you know what I mean?

25 quid times 52. So do your sums. So you're going to be sat in jail as skint on your ass on the phone begging your mum for a post-loader. I've been there myself. And it doesn't last. That's why you see all these gang members in jail

are skint. And a lot of them get onto these young, broke whitebirds in jail. Like they'll meet them in jail. The bird will be outside. the gang member will meet her and get on to her

through writing to what I don't know or on the phone and he'll start bum my money off of it or get me training he's babe, I love you're in this and not so he's being financed by this girl who he's met in prison

who he doesn't previously know and she's got kids to raise but this gang member in general I'm not saying all gang members are like that but a vast big proportion do this they cling on to girls

because it's a resource an income resource they have funded from this innocent fucking young girl who's been, who's got misguided loyalty to them who believes that this gang member in jail loves them because he's on his Instagram with a six-back and his chest out and he's got a six-back and he's in good shape he's paying on her financially for financial gain

and then he gets out and he thinks now okay she's got six kids or fucking four kids and she, you know, I'm not going to settle down with her it was just a means to an end to get through his prison do you know, to get him trainees, to get him post-loaders and it's quite common in jail do you know what gang members are skint and going back to the story it's about

re-educating these kids on the consequences and the pros and cons the benefits I'm not going to tell any kid don't carry a gun but I'm going to give them these the benefits these are the consequences outweigh the benefits

but when I'm communicating with them I'm telling them straight look you'll end up skint you'll end up in jail you know what if you usually going and kill someone. You'll end up in jail, wanking for your next 30 years. You'll be getting out with an old man and lending tuner off your neighbour. It's not the place to be. It's not the place to go. It's shit. You know, if the benefit outweighs the risk, then fair enough. But in this invalent crime, the benefit don't outweigh the risk. And it's about getting this message

to them and not saying, don't do it. I'm working with the police or I'm working with the council. Don't do it because they're going to look at you like you're a c. And think, why should listen to you. You've got to put a two minute. You've got to become their leader. It's like a pack of dogs and you've become part of that pack. You've got to become part of them and then lead from within and be a good example to them and show them look. You can hustle on the streets for years and be skint. Whereas if you go to uni and hustle for three years, you got a degree. You can go and go and go and get a job 40, 50 grand a year. You're earning more legitimately legit money than you're a half of a gram. Are you going to buy an house and you go, well, I'll just save all.

up, save us from robbing a few hours of crack every week. Where are you going to put your money? I'll get my nan to buy me. I'll give it to me nan. And then you've got to educate them on money laundering. There's a lawyer who we've got. The programme, what I'm doing, there's a lawyer who's going to come and do a talk, every program, and he's going to educate them on joint enterprise, conspiracy, money laundering.

And he's going to educate the reality. You can't just go and rob people or go and sell crack and smack and then go and buy it outside the proceeds. It don't work like that. you understand what I'm saying. So it's getting the message through to them by speaking the same language and getting the lawyers to explain the legal side

to corroborate what I'm saying. Look, he's a lawyer. He represents strong-called killers. He represents the biggest drug cartel. He represents the worst of the worst. He's their defence lawyer. So it's actually a very rational approach. What you're saying is you're not wagging the finger

and go, oh, naughty boy. You're going, look, you can do whatever you want. Correct. But these are the consequences of your rationality. and they're not what you think they're going to be. Correct. And also at the same time, giving them an alternative. Yeah. Like the ones on our programs, when I'm starting, the 16 to 19 year olds, we're going to be guaranteeing every one of them a job at the end of the program.

The 12 to 50, it's going to be two groups, 12 to 15, 16 to 19. The 12 to 15, we can't necessarily, they're still in education, alternative provisions and PRUs, so on. So we can't necessarily get them into work at that moment. But we're putting them on the right path. We might get them a fucking a weekend job in a, in a garage or helping as someone's well electrician's helper or something you don't understand what I'm saying but the old one 1619 we're getting them to work and we're giving them the alternative

to their legitimate money where you can put it in the bank you can get your good credit we're teaching them about building the credit out what you've got to do to get a house what you've got to do to get cars and we're educating them look you can't just go into a showroom with 50 grand of dodgy money and buy a car back in the day yeah that was fucking great but you're in 2022 now. Shit don't work like that. We're educating them. What are you going to do with your money? How are you going to spend it? Are you going to laundry?

Are you going to clean it? It's not as easy as you can go out and buy a coat for you in your bed and go to gloom and buy champagne, but that's all your life's going to consist of. You're never going to have a house. You're never going to have a decent car because the police are going to be questioning where do you get your car? And you can't just go and buy it house like that. You can't just say, well, I mean, I give me the money. Bullshit. That was something you're done in the 60s. It's absolutely bullocks.

Shit don't work like that. It's getting this mess. through to these goods and there's no one in the country that's got the solution. Hey Francis, do you like locals? I live in London mate, so obviously not. The only pleasure I get from the locals is when we share an intimate moment as we watch a Japanese tourist get trapped in a tube door. That is good. But I wasn't talking about their locals, I was talking about our community on locals.

You mean the one where you get phenomenal behind the scenes, when you... ...when you... ...when you get to ask incredible guests like Jordan Peterson, Brett Weinstein, Bill Burr, Sam Harris, Adam Carolla, Heather Hying, and others your questions? Not just that, you can get supporter-only benefits like trigonometry mugs, monthly calls with other top supporters, and even a regular meal with me and Francis.

You also get phenomenal behind-the-scenes footage. in the scenes footage of our trip to America where we met a whole host of incredible guests and gave ourselves terminal indigestion. We're also starting to do monthly giveaways for locals only. The first one will be signed copies of Andrew Doyle's new book. Plus, you get access to an incredible community of like-minded people who share memes, have fun conversations and most importantly, you get to make new friends. You can support us with as little as little as you can support us with as little as,

$7 or about £5 a month or give us more for the higher tier benefits. Go to trigonometry.locals.com. Go to trigonometry. Dot locals.com and support the show. Sycaris, do you think a lot of these kids are in love with an image? They've got this image in their heads of what it means to be a gangster and... 100% luck. I know the feminists will probably kidstize me for this and these fucking, I don't know, do gooders, but these days

if you're a heterosexual man for example or you're like women for example sake just using this as an example for a kid to get a decent well I wouldn't even say decent because the girls who go for criminals or a bit but to get a decent looking one like a fit bed as we as we described

you've got to have something to buy it no I know this is wrong but these kids are seeing it I'm speaking let me put myself in their perspective in their shoes no girl is going to look at me if my fucking gimp working in McDonald's. Now I'm not criticising people working in McDonald's

so I'm speaking... You're saying this is how a kid is thinking about this. Yeah. Look, just say it how it is and we'll... But just in case you've got any followers that are working McDonald's. I'm not putting these people down. We try to have honest conversation.

What you're saying is from this young man's perspective he's seeing, well, if I want to have an attractive girlfriend, I can't be working a McDonald's I have to be something. Yeah, correct. Yeah. They want to create a reputation, an image,

and I know it's bullshit, but they don't know what's bullshit. And most of the little young girls, not even the young girls, even the girls in the 20s, whatever, 30s even, the way some of them are now. Do you want that image? They want that.

When they go to a club, their fellas this or their fellas are that. Or when they go out, even the young ones who are 14, my boyfriend or whatever they call them in different cities. My fella is such and such, he'll fucking kill you. He'll do this. He'll do that. That's what these girls want, because then that image,

what the lad's got, then goes off onto the girl, so no one fucks with the girl, and then she's, her credibility comes up, her status crawls up because she's dating Johnny fucking Chewchester or whatever he wants, you know, Tommy Ten Guns. My fellow's Tommy Ten Guns, so I'll do what the fuck I want.

She can speak to whoever she wants, how she wants. Because if anyone reacts to her any of their peers give a shit a fella, then they don't want the shit of her fella. So status is a massive thing. Just that if you're a gimp, then you ain't getting that woman. I don't want to come across offensive, but out there's, you know, if you're a gimp, you're going to end up with some

little spotty gimpy girl. And who wants to be seen with a gimpy girl? I've got a gimpy girl now, so... Sorry, I shouldn't even call her that, but you know what I mean? She's high up in a company. She's normal. She wears glasses. She looks like Harry Potter.

But I like her. That's what you need in life. You need someone legit. You know what I mean? Whereas these kids don't want that type of stuff. They want the Beyonce type or the big booty, the big legs and the twerking. And she's got loads of followers on fucking, what's that thing called? Instagram.

TikToks. My Instagram followers and I've got 50,000 likes on me semi-naked picture. That's what. these kids want, status, reputation. So working in MacDonald aren't going to get you no status unless you go to flipping burgers and you can flip a beggar in six seconds and get it out on the dragon.

But it's bullocks. And so that's why we've got to change the ideology of these kids. That, okay, you've got this lovely looking girl now. But when you go to jail, she'll be fucking your mate. Trust me? Or your

adversity, your gang member rival will be around. Fucking her. in your bed. Because that's the way that's the way, if you attract that type of energy, that type of person, then the outcome is always going to be negative. Because if you can't sustain there and maintain that woman in prison,

if you're a good person working in McDonald's, you'll get a good woman. 100% of you'll be loyal and faithful. If it's a woman who goes for these little gang members and wants our status, that's all she wants. She likes the status and her reputation. The moment you don't have that, she's going to find

someone who's got it. Correct. And when you go to prison, you no longer have that. Yeah. Because when you go to prison, people are like, oh yeah, remember him, he was mad, but fuck him, now he's doing the tent. He can't do nothing to us. So he loses his influence, he loses his credibility and so on. And so was girl, she's thriving for that.

What do we do now? He can't protect me when he was in prison. He can't. I haven't got that status, so then she'll go on to someone else. And that's why them girls are. It's like the girl I was where at the time. When I went to prison for shooting that lad, she ended up getting with the lad a shot.

It was a bizarre state of affairs, but I thought, He's been selling the wrangga. And he's there in the bed and I thought, put him on. And I thought, what the fuck am I even doing? Spence to him. But I thought, you know, by guns be by guns. I apologise to him and said, look, I'm sorry for what I've done. And he explained my reasons and he apologised back to me.

And it was water under the bridge. It was done and dusted. I've seen him since when I got out and, you know, I let on to him and that was that. I never stopped my spoken. We're never going to be made. But he forgave me. Well, he said he forgive me. And I generally apologise and it was genuine.

So, Kauris, there's a lot of people who are saying, look, a large part of the problem is, you know, drill music, for instance. It glamorises it. The kids listen to it. Look, I don't believe this, but there's a lot of people out there, and this is an argument that they consistently use. And in the 90s, it was, you know, gangster rap. What do you say to these people? Oh, Prince Ari, I'm sure it was Prince Arii, what's his brother name? Prince, Prince William.

Prince William War Ari. One of them listened to, I remember one of them saying they listened to gangster. rapper 50-pence whatever the fuck is 50-pence is such a shit name for a rapper the American rapper you know 50 cents yeah yeah women in the club and all that type of shit or one of them

listen to him and you don't see Prince Larry and William running around London yeah with a gluck with a mask on yeah it's bullshit but rap music in itself doesn't make people into a monster it doesn't make them go and get a gun and go

and rob someone but it just reinforces the ideology I'd say it's still got to be there it's like chlamydia it's got to be there to spread it it's got to be there to grow do you understand what I'm saying

if it's not there rap music may enforce that ideology do I mean and I think the main issue of rap music drill music whatever you want to call it is that they slight each other

so one gang will slate another gang like one gang will say rapping about whatever he's rapping about and he'll go Terry Tibbs suck your mum or the North G whatever they're called I fuck your sister do you see where he's come from so it's still got to be there whereas if two kids who work in McDonald's do a rap and go

oh your cheeseburger with shit the McDonald's worker is no going to kill him so it doesn't it's still got to be there it's already got to be within them but rap music does it expedites the trouble. It can't expedite it, I understand, but then people are still going to,

either way, they're still going to have beef and dramas anyway. So I don't think, it might create, rap music might create drama between two gangs. This is my opinion, but they were already gangs. So even if that rap music never made them shoot him,

he would have shot someone for a different reason. Do you see what I'm saying? So they're already that type of character. I guess the argument is when you talked about people having an image in the head of being... He reinforces it, yeah. He reinforces that. With the cars and they're putting the video, yeah.

So, reinforce it. And it gets the image out there, the spectacles, the cars, the women, the dogs, the disc, the goal change, the watches and the boys. You're on a video with 10, 10 your mates. If they were rapping about being skin and going to prison, they probably would have a different impact. Look, if they were rapping about skinny jeans and ballet dancing, then, the world would be a great place. Yeah. But they're rapping about their lifestyles. But half of these rappers who were doing their life.

They've never lived that life. They're full of shit. And I think, mate, half years they were... There's one from the Midlands who raps about this and now. I think, what the fuck have you ever done? You can't rap about that shit because you're not involved in that. So they're rapping about a 50 calibre. And, mate, you've never even seen a 50 calibre.

You probably can't even spell calibre. Do you know what I mean? So half the middle of rap and I just full of shit anyway. But I wouldn't say rap music creates monsters. I think it connects it. situation. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, that makes complete sense. That makes sense. So before we wrap up, shall we talk about policing a little bit? Because prison and policing and all of that, like, do we have the right approach to dealing with people like the person

that you used to be in this country? Because obviously, in the end, for you, going to prison for a second time, did help you to change your life and turn it around. You might say. While I was in prison, yeah, watching that program and a few other factors combined with that, it did change me. But I think the public are moaning that they want something done about a violent crime but the same public are then moaning about stop and search. Now, my opinion, I used to get stopped more than anyone.

I was stopped by armed response. So I was stopped 10 times a week, sometimes five times a day in the Bill in Maysard, constantly by arm response, constantly by matrix. So I know more than anyone how effective stopping search is. you know, and my side place now this

I was stopped thousands and thousands of times or from 2009 to 2016 it was mostly 2009 and 2012 mostly but I was still stopped after

sometimes three, four, five, six times a day so I know more than anyone stop in search and I can tell you 100% it disrupts, it won't prevent you

being a criminal like I was a criminal and stopping me didn't prevent me being a criminal but it makes you more reluctant, it makes you more aware and when other gangs would come from out of the way

to meet me. I don't want to come across the matrix. I want to avoid the matrix. I don't want to do this. I don't want to do that. So it does disrupt you. Stop and search is massively effective.

And you've got all these MPs like, you know, I like some views David Lamie Aspo and Don Butler and things like that, but they're against Stop and Search and the black community in London is against them.

I'm saying it's the black community who are being killed. And he's a moaning that what's happening, the consequence of gun crime and the consequence of knife crime. But you need to stand up as a community. For example, I'm using the black community as an example because a lot of them moan in London, I'm stopping search, like Lammy, Don't Butler or so on, and the councillors and MPs.

But you need to support stopping search. You need to support the police. And they're saying, but it's racist. And they're stopping black people. I'm white. and I was stopped in a Liverpool more than anyone. I don't think there was anyone in a country that was stopped as much as me.

Myerside police will notice, so I'm not exaggerating. I was constantly stopped. I was harassed by them, but it was a proportionate measure. So the black community, for example, in London, need to get behind the police and support policing,

support stopping search, support, disrupting. And if they stop a black kid 10 times a day, then if he's affiliated to gangs, then it's just a fact that. it's proportionate. Otherwise, that's deterring

him from carrying an angle, a firearm or perhaps a knife. You understand what I'm saying? So if any of the London black community are watching this, they need to change their approach. Their kids are being killed. Black-on-black gang crime in London is rife.

And I don't even blame the kids. I blame the parents and I blame the community. I blame the MPs and I blame the councillors. Because they're all, you know, do I love the police? Probably not. There's certain police officers that I don't trust There's certain police forces that I don't trust There's some are like better than others

Do you know what I've had quite a bit of support Of the police since I've got out So it doesn't mean I'm pro-pricing I love the police but I'm saying from my experience And I think I'm more experienced than anyone On this subject to say stop and search works And there needs to be more, a lot more support for policing Now if the police are stopping someone like yourself

10 times a day Whether you white, black, whatever you may be And you're not affiliated to crime then yeah MPs need to come on down on the police like a ton of bricks and challenge them why you're stopping this person

he's not affiliated to crime if it's just the odd stop because you fit the description or because you fit that profile profiling as well works it's massively effective like if I was walking down in the pool in a trackie

where a bald head or a cap and the police stop me it's just it's tough shit I fit the profile of the people who are committing a crime and if an area in London for example if it's black on black crime

black people are going to get stopped and you need to accept that as one of the consequences of gun crime and and to reduce, in order to reduce gun and knife crime, there needs to be more stopping search and the community need to get behind it and that's where any community, even my community is in Liverpool.

I've seen one where some women's getting stopped. You probably were in a gang member by Diyazda and the woman's round over and grabbed the policeman. I'm like, go on, run. Liverpool's a totally different kettle of fish, but one of the other things I want to mention as well as I support stopping search

and I believe it's effective in saving kids' lives saving their lives of young people and reducing violent crime so people need to decide what they want they are the one to reduce crime and support the police

in doing so war they can be anti-police and anti-stopping search and they'll continue to get the results what they're getting which is numerous stabbing numerous shootings and more and more people

if you're a gang member and your MPs are going against stopping search that's going to give you more confidence to carry a gun or to carry a knife, because you're going to think the prospect of being stopped is reduced as a result of the pressure being put on the police now to stop you. Do you see what I'm saying? So it's going to create more people carrying weapons, whereas when I was involved in crime,

being stopped by the police was a massive deterrent in carrying a weapon. Do you mean? So the only other thing I want to cover it as well. Don't know there's anything else before on. No, I was going to ask you something else, actually, which is, you know, we're having this, we're really grateful to have you on, and I look forward to seeing how the work you're now doing helps kids and all of that. But I just, I can't help but think, like, we're a first world country, Britain, in the 21st century, it's 2022. And we're talking about young people in our country, stabbing each other to death,

shooting each other with guns. Like, that's not normal, man. It's not, it's not normal. How are we going to solve that as a society? How are we going to, how are we going to get to a point where we're not having to have this conversation? Look, you're never going to eradicate Varan Kran. You're never going to eradicate it, but you can reduce it significantly.

And I'm not just saying this, and I've shouted this for over a year. I strongly believe I'm confident I've got the solution, not to eradicate it, but to reduce it significantly. And it's aimed at the young people with the next generation who are involved in this stuff. It's not aimed at the older ones, because they're more harder to reform. The more ingrained a BIV becomes, the more harder it is to de-radicalize and divert you, I believe I've got the solution, but it's very controversial. It's something different, and it's something what's going to attract a lot of criticism.

Well, what I'm asking people is allow it to take its course and look at the end result. It's a means to an end. The means being used is massively controversial. The language used is inappropriate. It's not. All the people I'm speaking to all the parents are saying, yeah, this is what we need. We need this because this is what they listen to. do you mean the mentors that we're going to be using

and your average mentor I don't want to give too many tactics and strategies away because everyone says what's your solution and I'm never going to tell them because then they'll go and implement it do you mean like there's a guy who's doing a program with what I'm going to be doing and he's tried to

replicate it and do it himself now but it'll never work because he hasn't got what it takes I'm not academically clever but I know I can resolve this issue I don't mean resolving the sense of eradicated but or can reduce it significantly. And I'm asking people just to,

don't look at the means or the tactics I'm using and don't criticize that. Look at the end result. If I can get 75% of people on the program, if I can reform them, have them reformed, then the means ought to be irrelevant. Do you see where them come from? It sort of depends on the means, I suppose.

Obviously, it's not going to be unlawful, but it's going to be a professional and look at it and go, put their hands up. Like, there was one invested that, was detained because I called one of the kids a little bastard. So he said, no, I don't want to put me to mind to that. Why, me they're calling them a little bastard. And I'm sure they've been called worse.

They're shooting and stabbing people. They're flying around with guns. They're taking people out of cars at night point. And you're saying calling them a little bastard is inappropriate. People, normal people and professionals, youth workers, psychologists, criminologists, they're mad, their approach. If they've got the solution, go and apply it. and reduce the issue.

But they haven't. They're all scratching the heads. What do we do about knife crime? Well, don't criticize me until you see the outcome. The program, when I run a part, I'm trying to get funding. The pilot's going to cost me 12,000 pounds to run for three months. And in order for me to get funding,

I need to run a pilot scheme, what's I'm doing, or I'm going to be implementing and get an outcome evaluation. So what are the results? Did it achieve the intended results? And how many people were reformed? And I want to reform a minimum of, 75% of people that complete the program. I'm saying I'm giving them more or less guarantee.

75% of people who come through this program and complete it will reform, will be reformed. Now, I want to run the pilot scheme in the city in the north. And it's 12,000 pounds of run. One of the things I've done of set up will go fund me. Or people automatically look and think go from me at a scam. Ex-criminal. He's this, his dad, he's using it. I don't know what the thing I'm using.

and afford to set up one of the problem maybe, which is not the case. But people automatically assume the worst. And it's not, I've got major scrutiny on me. I've got a lot of scrutiny. There's a lot of buyers watching me. So if I was to fail on this program, then it's only me that's going to get the backlash. You don't understand what I'm saying. But I'm confident that we're working more than confidence.

And that's what I want to try and implement to show. I don't want to be speaking about it. I want to put it into practice and get it done and show and demonstrate. And the councillors have spoke to, the councillors who, I've had a few meetings with different councils and they're saying okay yeah if it works we're happy to back you do I mean and then

the funding will come then I can go for government funding then I can go for private investment even investors are saying there's many investors that saying we won't put our names with it now because we don't know the outcome you know I could go and get loads of kids and recruiting back into gangs for all I know or send them out in the streets with loads of guns

who knows people don't want to take the risk in you until you see the outcome yeah you got a 100% and that's what I'm trying to do so that's why I'm trying to raise 12,000 pounds to run it. It works out less than £27,000

per kid, less than £28 per day per kid and out of that money, out of that £28 to getting a gym membership, to get in a personal trainer, it's all that activities covered, it's the rent of the classroom, it's the work booklets, it's getting them to move from the classroom,

everything is covered in the food so they'll be fed as well, so it's covering £28 a day is a minimum, I'm not taking the wage out of that. No one's taking the wage, people are going to be volunteering, but 28 pounds a day is going to be minimum. The lawyer who's volunteering, he's not getting paid.

Everyone's volunteering their own time and an effort to this program because some people are confident in it, do I mean? And I'm 100% that it will work. There's no doubt about it. I recruited kids into gangs of radicalised kids. And another thing that happened

to me, I was radicalised in prison by people who were affiliated to Al-Qaeda. And that strategy, what was used to radicalise, me I then went on to use that strategy with kids on the street and I want to still continue to use that but for the opposite effect so to what you've got to do effectively is de-radicalize kids so they've got an ideology which is ingrained in them you've got to de-radicalize and change that ideology change that mindset

change that way of thinking you mean it's the point it's just putting them on a program and keeping them out of three months I want to make sure that when they finish the program and complete the program that they're going to stay on that right path and it's about changing the mindset changing the way of thinking and you That's what I want to, the tactics and strategies well I'll carry to you to groom me and radicalize me. Well, one of the bonus questions we'll ask for our locals only will be about that.

But for now, we wish you the best of luck with it. We'll put all the links in the video so that people can follow up. We want you to succeed with it. We hope that you are able to do that, of course. Thanks for the time, man. We really appreciate it. Before we let you go, we've got a couple of questions for our locals only, which we'll ask you in a second.

But we always finish the interview with the same question. Which is what's the one thing we're not talking about that we really should be? Use yourselves, or do you mean society? Society. In respect of what, crime, what? Anything you want to talk about? Anything you want to mention? I don't know. I don't really understand socks and shares, so the only thing I do understand is crime and things like that. So what don't people know about crime, prison, policing that you think they really should? What people need to know is prison doesn't work. Prison is just a warehouse.

what contains criminals until they're released. It does not work. It does not rehabilitate. The prison can work. It can be effective if the approach is changed to when in prison.

There needs to be effective rehabilitation. But that'll take that's another subject for another day. Secondly, prisons are needed to support. I support more prisons and longer prison sentences for certain offenders, but it's not working.

It's just a university for criminals. Someone can go in a shoplifter and come out with drug dealer because they acquire more skills and they meet more connections. That's where I met a lot. of my connections in prison.

And the other thing is about policing. I think there's a lot of police that I don't trust. There's certain police forces that I think are dodgy as hell. Well, as a whole, society needs to get behind the police. They need to support the police and they need to support and promote stopping search. All this bullshit that's saying, no, no, we can't be stopping these kids. It'll save lives. It'll save the kids' life because if they're carrying a good on life,

they're at an increased risk of them being handicapped. themselves do you understand what I'm saying so stop and search and an effect of policing does save lives 100% and you know these people are losing kids left right and center and losing family members brothers fathers if that individual that perpetrator would have got stopped by the police then he may be the chances are he wouldn't have went on to commit that murder or to commit that assault where people are seriously harmed in in hospital so I think society needs to be more supportive of the police

Sikaris, it's been an absolutely brilliant interview. If people want to understand the work that you do, if people want to access the work that you do, where's the best way to find that online? Yeah, they can follow me on my Twitter accounts. And once the program's implemented, then there'll be all the links. I'll be putting on that.

And I'll also send you the other links to the website, to the company that's going to be overseeing the program and implementing it. So you just can add that when you're uploaded, all the links to it. but people can follow me Twitter account, which is Sicarius McGrath, and I'll give you to the link to add to it. But if there's anyone interested in the contributing to the program or investing in it, then feel free to get in touch with me. It's been a wonderful interview. Thank you so much for

coming on. And thanks to you for watching. All our episodes always go out Wednesdays and Sundays, 7pm UK time, raw shows Thursday, Friday and Saturday. And it's also available as a podcast for those of you who like your trigonometry on the go. Take care and see you soon, guys. I was deeply, deeply radicalised because if I never got out and went back to gangs, then maybe I could have been the next shoe bomber, Richard Reid, who knows, I could have brought a plane down, a train down.

I don't know what perhaps could have happened.