TRIGGERnometry - Immigration is the Most Important Issue We Face - Peter Whittle

Episode Date: December 2, 2021

Peter Whittle is a British author, journalist and founder of the New Culture Forum https://www.youtube.com/c/NewCultureForum/videos Get TICKETS to TRIGGERnometry Live with Ayishat Akanbi here: https://leicestersquaretheatre.ticketsolve.com/shows/873621622 Join our exclusive TRIGGERnometry community on Locals! https://triggernometry.locals.com/ OR Support TRIGGERnometry Here: https://www.subscribestar.com/triggernometry https://www.patreon.com/triggerpod Bitcoin: bc1qm6vvhduc6s3rvy8u76sllmrfpynfv94qw8p8d5 Buy Merch Here: https://www.triggerpod.co.uk/shop/​​​ Advertise on TRIGGERnometry: [e-mail] Join the Mailing List: https://www.triggerpod.co.uk/sign-up/​​​ Find TRIGGERnometry on Social Media: https://twitter.com/triggerpod​​​ https://www.facebook.com/triggerpod​​​ https://www.instagram.com/triggerpod​​​ About TRIGGERnometry: Stand-up comedians Konstantin Kisin (@konstantinkisin) and Francis Foster (@francisjfoster) make sense of politics, economics, free speech, AI, drug policy and WW3 with the help of presidential advisors, renowned economists, award-winning journalists, controversial writers, leading scientists and notorious comedians. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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This is of an historical, unprecedented nature. We've got 250,000 to 300,000 people net coming into a country every year. That is extraordinary. Hello and welcome to Trigonometry. I'm Francis Foster. I'm Constantine Kissen. And this is a show for you if you want honest conversations with fascinating people. Our brilliant guest today is the host of the New Culture Forum right here on YouTube.

Peter Whittle, welcome to Trigonometry. Thank you very much, Constantine, Francis. Great to be here. It's fantastic to have you. Slightly novel experience. But, you know, great. All the better. You're in the other chair now, Peter.

The interrogation will begin shortly. But no, look, it's great to have you on. You have a great program here on YouTube, not only interviews in a similar vein to what we do, but also you make documentaries and all sorts of other stuff. Before we get into all of that, tell us a little bit about who are you, who am I? How are you where you are? What has been your journey through life? Because it has been an interesting one. I thought you're going to say it has been a long one.

It has been a long one. The longer is, it's more interesting it usually is as well, isn't there? Whippersnappers. Yeah, I mean, basically, first of all, I've always been interested in politics. I mean, I think for about 12 or 13. And we had the kind of family, my family used to talk about politics a lot, not in a kind of terribly informed way, but they used to talk about current events. And I grew up in.

in London. I'm a born and bred Londoner. And my parents were from Peckham. And they moved out when I was just a baby to a place called Shooters Hill, South London. Yeah, I know it. You know it? Right. A lot of people don't know it, actually, but it's one of the highest points in London. And, you know, so that I've lived and worked in London almost my entire life apart from five years when I spent in Los Angeles. But essentially, yeah, college, all of that, But I suppose my life in terms of work, right, alone, has been essentially in a kind of creative media field. I think I got the tail end of when the media was sort of good, when TV was still good, certainly for making documentaries. And I used to work for something called The South Bank Show, which is an older viewers will absolutely know.

It was like an iconic program. And then after that, covered the new arts, culture, film, theatre, all of that for the Sunday Times and people like this. And then I suppose what brought me to a point with starting the new culture forum, which we did in 2006, was that it just, I did not like the way things were going. I mean, we didn't know then what would be coming down the pipeline, you know. But at the time, I had this kind of, I came back from America. And I thought, I don't like how this country is going. What does that mean, Peter? Because 2006, it's way before what we now call woke culture or this sort of, or not.

Well, no, not really. I mean, there was already a kind of thing in the air, you know, that there was a set of orthodox views. And it went through the cultural section of our society. It went through all the institutions, really. And I'm sort of thinking, well, actually, we've got to sort of challenge this in some way. We've got to challenge these orthodoxies. What were they?

So it was multiculturalism was great. Climate change. All the things are still the case now. Immigration was an unalloyed good. also that basically we should not Britain was bad but that somehow or other patriotism was bad all of those things which in fact

pretty much are in place now with knobs on before that I was still in America when 9-11 happened although I was living on the West Coast it was like a kind of epiphany because I'd kind of dropped out of being interesting I used to be active in the Tory party

and everything. And I dropped out of it because I was far more interested in my media career and doing all that stuff. And 9-11, suddenly it was like this, I think Christopher Hitchin said the same thing, that it was like this epiphany

the time's come to get serious, actually. This was serious. And it was from that moment on, actually, that I really started to become much more involved again, started the NTF for a few years after that. That's a bit of a whirlwind tour.

A hell of a lot else has gone on. But I mean, you know, I hope, you know, gives you an idea for I'm from. And you were involved in politics directly as well at one time. Yeah, it was, yeah, in UKIP for six years. Six years, about 2013, I think. And I became their culture spokes. And people used to find that hilarious, you know. Culture, what does that mean?

You know, basically, they thought we would all have a union jet waistcoats. and you know and and and all of that bulldogs and all of that but i was asked by them you know because of the ncf new culture from would you would you uh be our culture spokesman it was very wide it wasn't just like the arts and everything it was all these cultural issues which you guys talk about on your program we do all the time um because they are the big issues of of our time and um so i did that and then um i became deputy leader of you kit and then basically stood for the Emeraldi in London, 2016, got onto

the London Assembly, that body that nobody's ever heard of even in London. So I was up against Siddi Khan all the time, you know, and all of that. But I would say with UKIP, for about

two years in the middle of that, it was absolutely fantastic. It really was. You know, it was, we were right in the middle of, and had indeed, I would say, caused, some of the main events of the time, the referendum. And I think that there were very good people involved,

and you really felt that this was something that was making a difference. In fact, of course, it did make a difference. So I think, particularly I think 2015-16 was a fantastic time in UK. Peter, can I challenge you a little bit on this idea that it made a difference? Because there's no question that the referendum was a huge event in human history, I would argue, in terms of the cascading consequences around the world, potentially. But one of the issues we're seeing now is one of the principal arguments in favor of Brexit was the ability to control immigration, something that I personally, I voted remain,

but the idea that a country should control its borders doesn't seem particularly controversial to me. Racist. It started to be mean to go on. Yes, exactly. But here we are now. It's 2021, almost 2022. Brexit was delivered. Boris Johnson is in power on the basis that he would deliver Brexit.

Are we controlling our borders? Of course not. I mean, and I don't disagree with you at all. I think that that is about something else. We should be able to with Brexit, definitely, or indeed, actually, even before Brexit, we could have controlled them more. but I would say that there isn't the will to do it and that goes across the whole establishment really

and I don't know whether you remember but just I think a week ago before filming this it emerged at the head of the border force with pretty anti-borders now even for someone like me who thinks that the establishment's riddled with left liberal people even that you sort of think surely not I mean, surely not.

There was this guy... Well, the quote was, the borders are a pain in the ass, I think, is what you're saying. Pain in the ass. But then I think he started going on, we're all mammals or something, or we're all species or something like, you know, but what it didn't do is instill any confidence that this person actually really believed in his job. And you sort of think, well, actually, you're not about to take people on who are very,

very rigorous about immigration, are you? You're not going to... And that, I thought, was very, very... telling. I think that immigration is probably the most important issue, actually, that we face historically. So it's not that Brexit was never going to control immigration. You've got to have the will to do it. I mean, to his credit, Nigel has been going down to the South Coast and filming all of that. But I wouldn't say that's a failure of Brexit. It's a failure of our entire political class. Peter, why do you think it's one of the most important,

if I think you said the most important issue of our time? I think it is, and I think it is actually for most people. It's of historic proportions. I mean, I'm not anti-immigration at all. I don't think I know anyone who is actually in principle and it would be hypocritical because I went and I went to another country you know it would be utterly hypocritical I think that what we're seeing is on you know this is of an historical unprecedented nature if you've got 250 to 300,000 people net coming into a country every year that is extraordinary we now that is normal now No one really even reports it very much. And so many of the issues that we talk about, whether it's housing,

whatever it is, cultural change, whatever it is, all of these things are absolutely, there's no point in even discussing them if you're not going to at least look at immigration too. When I was on the London Assembly, for example, five years I was on it. Not once did immigration get discussed. London basically has been transformed by immigration within a generation.

And I think that economically it's incredibly important, but also culturally it's important. I don't see why people should be sort of feel inhibitive, or rather should I say I do know why they should be inhibited because they're frightened of talking about. It's the same old thing. They're going to be called this, something. The other thing. So, in fact, I'd say that there's less talk about immigration now than even 10 years ago, actually. I don't know if you feel less talk. It's just like, oh, well, that's just the way it is. What it seems to me is this, we had the referendum, which was ostensibly about immigration. It was about controlling our borders. It was about people saying that actually, we, as an island and as a nation,

we should be able to decide who enters a country and who doesn't. Freedom of movement doesn't work. And that's something I believe in. And actually, my mother is an immigrant. And I do not believe it's racist in any shape or form to say that. But it seems to me what we have is we have the vast majority of the population who believe that. And then we have the government and the political class who are not wishing to enact what the public want. And that seems to me a very major problem in our society.

Well, it is, as I say, it's one of the main ones. But in fact, you could go through a whole raft of issues where that is the case, where the majority of people feel one thing. They watch these illegal landings coming in and saying, what is going on? Why? Why is it so difficult to stop this? If you look back over the past year, what a government can really do when it wants to, you know? So you don't, you could go back and say, well, what about the Iraq war? Same thing.

A government can do something who wants to. And extraordinary levels of regulation have been put in with COVID and all of that. And whatever you think about that, the fact is, is that it can be done. And yet we can't do this simple thing. We can't do this simple thing like control our borders. But what we have now is even more interesting in that we have a Home Secretary who talks tough, but actually doesn't seem to be controlling or isn't controlling the borders at all. Whereas before we had people fudging the issue and being mealy-mouthed,

now we have someone who talks stuff but doesn't deliver. No, it's all window dressing. I'm afraid it's the same generally with this government for me. You know, when we had the cultural attacks of last year and statues and all of that being attacked, what did they really say? You know, they sort of say, oh, this is bad and, oh, we can't. There's no sense really in which they're taking this very seriously.

Not really. I don't even think they understand it. This is the amazing thing to me, Peter. And you know, neither Francis or I are conservative. No. Certainly in the party sense, we both have conservative values on certain things. But I thought that the political situation in 2019 when the Red Wall collapsed and working class people came over to the Tory party.

party on a number of issues. Obviously, Brexit was one of them, but also I think it was a pushback against what people now call the woke agenda, woke culture, whatever. People felt very strongly that they were going to vote for a party that doesn't buy into this stuff. And yet here we are two years later, people voted for that. I mean, if I was a red wall voter, I don't imagine I'd be feeling that this government is delivering. And they'd be right to feel that. Yeah. So the problem for me there is there is no democratic way out at the moment for people who have these concerns as you do. No, you know, there's a lot of talk. You'll be aware, you know, if you swim in these political ponds that we're in, there's a lot of talk. Why can't all the small parties get together?

The fact is, is that, look, with UKIP and then with the Brexit party, I suppose, they did what they were meant to do. They were extremely effective pressure groups. that became elected, or at least in the case of UKIP, became elected. What they did, they frightened the Tories. Simple as that. Frightened Cameron, because the one thing that moves these people is when they fear for their seats, for their electoral seats. And they saw UKIP going up and up and not like that.

So what I've been saying over the past, you know, year to anyone or listening, is basically we need somebody to do this, But for these issues we're talking about now. When it comes to the Tories, I genuinely think many of them don't quite get it. I mean, you know, they, when you talk to them, bless them, they sort of say, I think, yes, oh, it's all a load of nonsense. You know, political correctness has gone mad. You know, and you sort of think you don't quite get what this is. I mean, for me, what we're living with at the moment is an outright attack on our civilization, actually.

And I think that they don't grasp that. When you go further up, people like Boris and people like that, obviously these are intelligent people, for goodness sake. It's just a matter of expediency. This requires real courage to actually face these sort of things. What are you going to do? You know, if you've got universities that don't believe particularly in free speech, actually impose the opposite,

you've got a border control chief who doesn't believe in borders. You've got a police force, appears to have been entirely captured by this kind of woke mentality. No wonder people feel, not just frustrated, but actually sort of, they feel unhelp and powerless. And there's no one actually really basically answering their fears and their worries. But I think it's, I'm afraid, it's down to the government in that way, you know, that they just simply haven't got the guts or the knowledge really to do what needs to be done. And then that is a whole different argument about what you should do.

Should you start new institutions? Should you start new universities? I noticed you've had Kathleen Stockholm recently. She's gone to Austin, isn't it? University of Austin. It's not quite started yet. But this is what we've got to do. You believe that new institutions?

Oh, yes. You're never going to reform these things. Why not? Because it's too ingrained now. You know, all of it's too ingrained. You are just going to have to offer alternative. Well, look, we're sitting in one, aren't we? You know, when it comes to media, we're trying to, you fellas,

we're trying to offer something else. I would say, in fact, this is the new form of public broadcasting, actually, stuff you would never see anymore. So there's that. But I think when it comes to universities or other institutions, we have got to start really seriously thinking, right, we've got to start creating our own things, you know. Very, very difficult to do.

America tends to be much better at that kind of thing. They've got more money. They've got more people willing to put their money where their mouth is than we have. But to go back to my original point, yes, I think you know, people often tend to focus on Boris and say, well, he's always been a metropolitan, liberal, and all of that. That might well be true. But I think a lot of it there is just simply not really the will. You know, whatever you think of Macron, he came out during the cultural kerfuffle last year and said, you know, this doesn't not happen in France.

We do not take statues down. We do not do this, that, the other front bubble. And you sort of, why can't our senior politicians just simply give people reassurance in that way. And they just can't. And why is that, Peter? Who are they afraid of? I think that they are basically afraid of the people that they mix with.

Seriously. I mean, it just comes down to that. I think also, as I said, there's a great, inability to understand. If you were to say, like I've just said about the attack on Western civilization, which I think is happening, if you would say that to many senior to say, yes, you know, oh and it's terrible, it's terrible, they don't really, I don't think they really take it on board. On the issue of immigration, I think it's our good old fashion friend, fear of being called racist or notephobic, plus the civil service

which is absolutely solidly not on board with it. Hey, Constantine, do you like Christmas? No. In USSR we cancelled Christmas and we had Lenin Fest instead. Orsat? We celebrated glorious leader and rewrote story of Jesus to make it better. Really? Yes. In our story, three wise men were killed and gifts meant for Jesus redistributed to glorious workers of the Soviet Union. Jesus was put on Gulag for having a wrong opinion, as we call it in Russia, Happy India.

Right. Well, if you do want to celebrate the festive season, then there's only one way to do it. Grab yourself a ticket to our final live show of the year at the Leicester Square Theatre on Saturday, December the 11th. Yes, it is discussion with one of our favorite guests, Aisha Akanbi. She is almost as good philosopher as Vladimir Lenin. Yeah, exactly. Our two previous shows sold out completely, and this one will as well. Grab your ticket now before it's too late. Click on link below. During interval, there will be special entertainment. I will ride bare with my short off.

I didn't realize we were going for that demographic, mate. Oh, yes, we are. Excellent. You say it's an attack on our civilization. Those are very bold words, Peter. I mean, you've given a couple of examples. You've given the universities with the problems with freedom of speech,

which I completely agree with. You gave the example of the... the head of the borders. Statues. The statues. Police. Police. What else is there?

Well, I would say this is not some conspiracy theory I'm talking about at all. It's not a conspiracy theory. It doesn't have to be. I think that when you look at the way in which, for example, creativity in the arts, literature, film, paintings, all of these things, music. One by one, they've sort of being picked off. So in America at the moment, classical music is very much under the hammer

as being an expression of white supremacy. Now, if you say that, even though in your mind you're thinking, what a crock of crap that is, to say that, at the same time you'll be thinking, well, if I maybe go against saying that, I will get it in the neck, you know, from the usual people, particularly if I'm on Twitter and all of that. So fear plays a part. But the problem is with these things is increasingly when it comes to any creative endeavor

of the sort that underpins our civilization, it's increasingly about you can't write about that. You can only write or paint or whatever it is your lived experience, right? That kills creativity. And even though people might say, oh, it doesn't really, because, you know, you can always say, yeah, no, it does. Because also people who might want to say something else, for example, are just simply not going to bother. They're not going to go there. Also, it leads to enormous self-censorship, too.

I mean, I think that the arts, for example, could really be, you know, killing themselves at the moment. And I think that you might say, well, people say, well, I don't really care about the arts, you know, Why should we pay for them anyway? Well, you know, I mean, the fact is that they're a huge part of our civilization and our achievements. And we're seeing them basically being chipped away at. And the thing that I find really frustrating with the arts, and particularly with comedy, but it goes right the way through it. I'm a huge theatre lover.

I love going to the theatre. I used to it, but I don't anymore. Yeah. And I think part of the reason is, it's because I sit down and I watch something, I just want to be told a story. I want emotions. I want characters. I want to live in a different world for two and a half, three hours.

What I don't want is a tedious lecture. And it sometimes feels that you go to watch these things and I'm being told how to live. And that to me is not art. I don't want perfect people. No, I mean, it's not, yeah, but they're not also perfect, are they? That's the thing.

I think it's, I mean, when it comes to, I was a film critic for, what, 20 years, for all sorts of different people. And I've always loved film. I've lost interest a bit lately, I have to say, because I'm not interested in Marvel comics, and that's the mainstream output now, isn't it? Yes, it is. And I just can't get interested. But you sort of know when you're being lectured,

and it's sort of got this rather wearying type of predictability about it. Here we go. I think that that, with the theatre you mentioned, for example, when did you last see a political drama at the theatre, Francis, that sort of, I don't know, even sort of gave a kind of balance view of something? I mean, could you imagine a play, which I would have thought would be quite good dramatically, actually,

about sort of working class people in the Red War who voted for Brexit. It wouldn't have to be just about, it could be the background to the play, and you've got to have a drama and everything. doesn't have to be crude, but the idea that that would happen is sort of unthinkable. Yeah. Well, you see, that's wrong, isn't it? It's completely wrong.

You know, I mean, I remember when we first started the new culture form, one of the reasons I did was I went to interview Nicholas Heitner, who at the time was director of the National Theatre. And he'd come out with this thing, he said, what we need in British Theatre is we need good, naughty, you know, right-wing plays, you know, to mix it up a bit. And I sort of thought, that tells you everything that phrase, you know, from naughty, you know, it's sort of basically, just let's a few in.

And that was back then. But I think the chances now of having real variety of thought, you know, in something like the theatre, is just gone. It's gone. I mean... It's interesting you say that, Peter, because a good friend of us, Jeff Norcott, the comedian. Oh, yes. he made a career, he was a great comic before, but he made a TV career, you might say,

by focusing on the fact that he voted Brexit. And he was a sort of human-humanized face of Brexit in the comedy world where he's a lovely guy, Jeff. And so he's a lot easier to hear than maybe. But then everyone just went, oh, okay, so we've got that covered now. And that's it. And it seems like culture has been pigeonholed in this very narrow way. And it's interesting what you say about cinema as well, because I used to be.

got to cinema all the time. I used to watch the BBC all the time. I used to do all that stuff. And now I really don't. I read an article, I think it was, I can't remember, Celia Walden, I think it was. But she wrote an article quite recently. I thought, you know, that's really, you put your finger on it. You wake up in the morning, what is going to be wrong with something I liked yesterday? What should I feel guilty about? But, you know, I feel that. You know, it's like once Hinterland is being scraped away. So you can actually list what don't you do anymore.

What don't you? I mean, I'm interviewed on the channel Victor Davis Hansen. You know, we've had a money. And he was saying, I don't watch the Super Bowl anymore. I don't, certainly don't watch the news network news. I don't watch the Oscars. That's same for me I don't know about you

I don't watch TV Mainstream TV anymore It's not good for your mental health And but also just You know I used to like Have I got news for you Yeah it was good I used to kind of quite like it

Yeah And you sort of think no Why should I watch and laugh along When you so disapprove Of the likes of me Why should I And it's the same When you get people in

in film and showbiz in America who come out with this deplorables line and make such a fuss about it. And you sort of think people will stop buying tickets, you know, eventually if you do this, if you carry on. Because they're going to sort of people have hardened, their attitudes for hardened. Why should I, why should I indirectly give you money? You think I'm shit. It's, you know, it was a couple of months ago, I got the guys, we had a big screen at our

last studio and I got the big screen up. And I put on, I mean, it's going to sound very nerdy, but I put on Prime Minister's questions between William Hague and John Prescott, deputy prime minister. And this won't say much to our American audience. But it's fascinating to watch because it's this very posh, extremely articulate William Hague,

debating with a working class inarticulate, well, you could argue inarticulate John Prescott. And they're both playing their character. And John Prescott doesn't go, oh, you're oppressing me, the working class man, because you're making fun of my grammar. He goes, well, you're making fun of my grammar, but my judgment is, and there was a kind of mutual appreciation. Well, that would have been, what, 20 years ago? Yeah. It was 1998, maybe.

Well, people are still adults, you see. Well, I was going to ask you, I mean, that's a funny quib, but do you think maybe, is it social media that's done this to us? Not entirely. I think it certainly hasn't helped. you mean the general deterioration in public discourse. Yeah, like everything is fight now and it's fight to the death. Yes, yeah. Yes, I think that's true.

Social media is part of it. Although there's, I think, been a slight change in the sense that as well, is that people, because of the kind of cult of narcissism, and they sort of feel, you know, they're not used to being criticized anymore, not just on social media, but the way that many kids are brought up now. And so, you know, there's this whole thing of, you know,

being kept safe from things that you don't like or disagree with. It makes people, therefore, very angry when they disagree with. Very, very angry. So I think that might be one of the reasons. I think as well that when it comes to Parliament, I would say there has been a kind of deterioration in Canada. people, you know, even, I think very physically, you know, over the past sort of 10 years. I agree with that.

I completely agree with you that there is. Why would you go into it? I mean, why would you go into it if you're going to have everything you've said, you know, what, just brought up from like 10 years ago? What kind of a person is still going to go, yeah, I want some of that. And you're going to be badly paid and you're going to be criticized for every single thing. you say or do, you're going to become a hate figure, particularly if you're on the right, I would say, or if you're on the far left, you're going to become a hate figure.

You're going to get people sending you death threats and rape threats every day on Twitter. You're not being remunerated for it particularly well. What's the appeal? Yes. What's the appeal? I think it has, you know, it has deteriorated definitely. I don't know what, I mean, just as proposed this, what we've been discussing, I don't know whether you guys get this. I'm sure you do, but on this point of the political class,

not absolutely not really responding to people, you get emails, don't you, in letters? I certainly do all the time. Yeah. And people are genuinely bewildered and genuinely just so upset. During the whole stuff with the start, we started this campaign, Save Our Statute.

When we did that, the visceral hurt people felt at the kind of landscape heritage being attacked was huge, you know. But see, the thing is, Peter, and I'm sorry to interrupt, but the reason is, is the far left don't. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I know, but I like listening to people talking here in their points of view. It's why we do this. But I think what the far left don't get, for instance, when the church, when the, when the, statue of Churchill was attacked, my grandfather volunteered to go and fight. He could have, he was building mosquito planes during the war. He was a master carpenter. He didn't have to go and fight. But he volunteered to go and fight the Nazis and fought right the way from Italy, right the way

down to North Africa and in fought in the Battle of El Alamein. Yeah. To basically save the West. And then when I saw that statue being attacked and defaced of Churchill, to me, it was not only were they disrespecting my country, not only were they disrespecting a political symbol, they were disrespecting my grandfather and his memory. And they don't understand that. They don't get that. Because to them, I think they have, they're utopians. They want to live in this world without borders. They want us to live in this place where, you know, we overcome racism and all these different things. But the reality is it's not the real world. They've been indoctrinated in utopianism. Do you not think that is? I totally get the point about your Graham. And I feel that when you look at the white poppy thing, you know, I sort of think that's kind of implied insult actually, because it's implying that people who wear a red poppy somehow love war. No, I think the thing is really on that point, Francis, is I don't think, I don't think to say that they are utopian is sort of, it gives them a kind of, it's too nice.

I mean, in the sense that you can say, oh, it's great to be idealistic. And, okay, they might get it wrong, but they're idealistic. I don't think that, you see, I think that it's, it's, a lot of it is hate. I think that, you know, one of the things that we've talked about a lot of the NCFs or over the years is the kind of culture of self-hate, it attack anything which is to do with the nation, anything which is to do with the traditional family, anything which is to do with basically the way we might do things. So in other words, I don't think they're motive. To say that I'm, you know, it's utopian, we want to live in a world, I'm not so sure.

I think a lot of it is based purely on resentment and anger and dislike, dislike of what they are, dislike of, you know, the country. Do you not think, so for instance, when it comes to the BLM thing, for example, now the people at the top may be like that, but there's a vast wave of people. I think BLM is deeply sinister as an organisation because what I think they did is they exploited black people's pain of the fact that they've had racism, you know, particularly when you look at the first generation of immigrants who came to this country in the 50s or 60s or 70s, they faced all awful racism and prejudice. And what they did, I think, was essentially weaponise that pain

in order to try and fulfill their political ends. Yeah, I think I agree with that. But I think also interesting, because obviously, you know, growing up in some of it, yes, Britain was far more casually racist. There's no good of getting away from it, you know. But it certainly isn't now. And it seems that what's happening, it's the same with the gay, with Stonewall and the gay thing,

is essentially when things have actually improved a huge amount, of course then people start to lose their point. So suddenly, it's even worse. I mean, if an alien came down now and looked at Britain, they would sort of think, God, what is this racist cesspit? You know, because everywhere, in every newspaper, you know, every newspaper, it's racism, racism, racism. Whereas we all, I think, would believe, and can see

that actually this is remarkably tolerant country. And in fact, certainly isn't maybe what it was like when immigrants first arrived. You know, certainly, I would say, therefore, that the people who protest, not just BLA, but just generally what we're dealing with at the moment, are people who on the whole just do not like their culture. They do not like their country. They do not like the society. I think people who really have a strong sense of injustice and wanting to make things better for ordinary people, I think you can tell those people, those sincere people, you can. And that used to be labour, actually.

My parents were patriotic. They liked the queen, and they were just, you know, they felt part of something. We. They use we all the time. Well, we don't usually, we don't, we tend not to be like that. You know, what they meant was, the country, you know, the British. But they were Labour, they voted Labour. And they weren't sort of like absolute believers in the kind of free market, evangelical, sort of evangelical, oh, the market will solve everything and all of that. They certainly weren't. They had a very strong sense, actually, of justice in that way. way, which I think was very strong in the Labour Party. I'd say up to about 60s.

But then basically, like so many people, they went over to Satya, because Labor was becoming already then in Hoc to these sort of smaller influential groups and, you know, just becoming unrecognizable. So it used to be labor. I think there was a genuine. I think, in fact, I find it very, very moving. If you go back to the beginning, before, you know, the very beginning

to the trade union's movement and also the way in which working people used to have classes in literature and in mining communities and things like that, all of these things, just wonderful, aspirational,

this is good to know this stuff. Good to know this stuff. That's entirely gone, I think, to the point where I think, actually people probably don't even know existed really. Peter, let me ask you something, because I agree with you on the resentment point, actually. I do think this is what drives a chunk of that. Stephen Hicks, I don't know if you've had him on your show.

He's a Canadian philosopher. I should introduce you. He's very good. We're going to have him on the show very soon again. He talks about the fact that there are different traditions on the left, and one of them is solidarity-based, what you're talking about with your parents, and the other one is the resentment left. And they've come in, undoubtedly, and they've made their impact on the world, which is fine.

People are allowed to have whatever, in my opinion, their political views. That's absolutely fine. The question for me is, why are these people being indulged? Why are these people being given the opportunity? We had, as you sit here now this morning, there's a story that the Imperial War Museum had an anti-Churchel woke rap. performed on Remembrance Sunday, right? Now, people are allowed to perform anti-Churchel woke raps. That is the country we live in.

You would defend free speech, I'm sure, as much as I would. But why is that happening at the Imperial War Museum? Like, that's what I don't understand is, I understand people having a resentful view of society, and we've covered it on the show a lot, the breakdown of the family, all sorts of other factors, cause people to not like their circumstances, to be upset, to be traumatized from childhood.

That's fine. They're allowed to feel that. Why are the adults in the room pandering to that? Well, I would say that, you know, in the case of the Imperial War Museum or almost any museum you want to mention, I think that there has been, all of our main institutions have sort of been captured. What I think was very telling is that during the beginning, is that during the BLM thing last year, it was the speed with which all of these institutions

suddenly started saying, we're decolonising, we're decolonising. You had the death of George Floyd, then you had these statues and the BLM and everything. And then this started to happen very, very quickly, almost identical. So they had the British Library decolonising its collection. This is like the spine of the culture, the British Library. going through the spine and essentially we're going to sort of start, you know, tinkering with that. And then you had it the same with the National Gallery. We're looking at all of our slavery routes. You had it with National Maritime, all of them. And, you know, you almost, there's one a week.

I would say that the same sort of people run them. They have, broadly they dislike, I think, our heritage, the National Trust, of course, being another brilliant one, they are full of guilt, and also they tend to be quite ignorant, actually, of the very thing they're meant to be curating. But I think, in answer to your question, that's what it is really, that all of these institutions, obviously universities too, essentially what people feel, the people who run them, it's essentially the same. And so therefore, they were all jumping on this opportunity. And it will go on.

You ask why are they being indulged? I mean, I would say to, you know, you're talking about people with influence and power, you know, aren't you? I mean, these people are influential. They're in powerful positions. So it's, you know, they've got the power, they've got the influence. All that most people can do, I think, is to just withdraw boycott. Or they can withdraw, for example, with the National Trust, they can say, that's it, I'm

not, you know, I'm can't see my membership. Or, you know, if, this happens, say, like at the Imperial War Museum, don't donate. You know, people have a lot of power in this way. you know, if they do it on a big enough scale. Same works for corporations as well, same for companies. You know, I stopped using Gillette. No, I did. I just started using this thing called Harries.

Do you know, Harry? Yeah, yeah. It's a small thing. They made hay while the sun shone during that period. And good luck to them. They've probably gone woke now too, but anyway. Someone used to start real man raises. No, no, but you can sort of do, I think this is one error, you know,

where you can sort of like, because people say, what can we do about it? They say, well, just stop using X or stop going to Y or withdraw your, you know, any support you give to this. And eventually, eventually it will have an effect because money means a lot to these people. Hmm. Hey, Constantine, do you love trigonometry? Of course. Incredible interviews.

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See you there, guys. It's sad though, Peter, isn't it? It's sad. It's tragic. It's tragic to see where the BBC is, to see what they create, the output that. they make because you're an Englishman. I presume at one point you loved what the BBC made. Oh, I quite, well, if you were, you know, people of my, I was at what, 60, people of my generation,

you know, you were shaped by the BBC. The comedy? Well, the comedy, but also like the proms and these great drama series and that's just not there anymore. It's just not there. Occasionally, we were talking before we came on about a good documentary that you saw, you know, occasionally, but just basically I can't help feeling that the cultural damage they do is now greater than any benefit, you know? And I think what was shown now was the way in which they, along with like the museums,

we're talking about, last year with the proms, they really did, you know, they did it against. This is a perfect opportunity for us to refresh the way we do last night. night because they hate. I'm sure the movie he hate doing the last night of the proms. Oh, blokes with union, with union checks and all the rest of it. So essentially, you know, but obviously what happened there is that people, you know, rallied on social media, if nothing else, but enough to make them change their mind. Peter, do you think, do you think this civilization, the Western civilization, do you think that you're being punished for your success?

Do you think that's it? I think that there is a... I think there's an element of cultural envy in it, I think. But I think it's a bit of that, but also it's just perhaps that we have... We've sort of basically become too comfortable in a way. That's not to say that there isn't sort of hardship in society. And of course there isn't inequality. more, I think, than, you know, like a few decades ago.

But I think that it is probably a lot to do with that. But also, I think it is just our kind of self-criticism and our sort of basically of self-hatred is sort of being utilised. President Trump, whatever you think of him, he made two great speeches, I think. One of them was the one he made in Poland in 2017. And he said the biggest question of our time is, does the West have the world to survive? And I think he was absolutely correct, though, to identify that. Because all the stuff we've been talking about is all essentially comes under this

one banner, I think. I think in civilization is a fantastic thing. It's not without thoughts or whatever, but the thoughts are always pointed out to us. So I don't worry about taking that on. I think it's a wonderful thing. And I just wish that the people who were in control of it felt the same way.

It seems more and more that we're, and this particularly affects the arts going back to the arts, that we're operating in a culture of fear. people are terrified to put forward another point of view, another way of seeing the world, particularly artistically, when the industries around the arts and the arts themselves are cripplingly woke. Oh, well, they are particularly bad. I mean, they always were when I was working in them.

But, you know, they are particularly bad. I think there was some, there was a letter done to the Times by all these big honchos in the arts during the referendum campaign and it was sort of like, like, thousands of them, you know, actors, actresses or whatever. And they were all to a man and woman, absolutely anti, you know, Brexit. And they put forward these sort of ideas, oh, we're going to be impoverished. Get this, our creative imagination as a country will be impoverished. What are they talking about?

You know what I mean? this is, you know, the EU had been around for what, 50, 60 years. And hello, I mean, what about Shakespeare? You know, what about Dickens? What about whoever else you want to mention? Who predated the EU. But no, this is what they sort of felt and what they wrote. And it is sort of particularly in the arts, hence you will not see that play I mentioned earlier.

Or, you know, increasingly as well. they're not going to take on radical Islam, are they? You know, there are consequences. There are consequences. So I think there's a lot of self-censorship probably going on. But I think the difference now, and you know Lionel Schreiber, she was talking about this when she came on, I know you've had on, she was saying, you know, is to stay in your lane thing as a writer.

So basically, so what that means is as a white woman. of a certain age, she cannot write about, I don't know, an asylum seeker from Syria or something, she can't, you know, she can't, in this new kind of world in which we live. I mean, to me, that's just absolute impoverishment of the imagination and in every way. It is an impoverishment of the imagination, and it's enforced impoverishment, because the greatest form of censorship is self-censorship. We know that. We had David Badeel on the show, you know, lefty, liberal, comedian.

And even he said that he's self-centered when he was writing his material in a way that he didn't do before. Yes. I suppose that's very honest of him to say that. I mean, I don't think it's necessarily, I don't know whether he should have said that, or indeed whether he should do it. But, I mean, I think, you know, if you start, if you want to have any kind of effect, you've got to be authentic, haven't you? And you've got to be authentically yourself.

But I heard... Peter, that's easy for us to say. It's much harder for a comedian who wants to have a mainstream career because the moment you become authentic, they'll push you out. They'll push you out. And we knew when we started Trigonometry.

We had an episode called The Truth About Trigonometry chronicling our history of the show and all the struggles we've been with. The reality is when we sat down in a pub three and a half years ago to start this. I said to Francis, they're going to try and destroy us. I said it to him that day, because I knew it would happen, because it's what happens to anyone who tries to be authentic and say the truth. I mean, you mentioned radical Islam. Look at the last month in this country.

So David Demas gets murdered. He gets murdered by, as far as we know, an Islamist terrorist. What do MPs talk about? Are they talking about radical Islam? Are they talking about counterterrorism? No, they're talking about online anonymity, right? So they're not, if our members of parliament are not going to have an honest conversation about who our enemies are, what they want to do to this country, who it is that's actually killing one of their colleagues,

how are you going to expect a liberal comedian to be truthful? Right. But you asked me, like earlier, you know, who's, why is this? You know, why are we indulging? So if you take the people who would, like, presumably, commission, comedians or hire comedians. Who were they? You had a chat with one of them, didn't you?

But why are we indulging them? Well, because they've got the power. They've got the power. I mean, Francis had a chat with one of them the other day. Tell Peter what happened. So I was talking to one of them. He was going to me, because I did my comedy set at this TV showcase thing, and he came up to him, and he was, I enjoyed your set.

It was different from what, you know, you normally hear from comedians. And he was, so what do you think about the comedy? of the industry. I went, well, it's fundamentally biased, isn't it? And he was like, well, how do you mean? I said, well, look, you've got Stuart Lee. Stewart Lee would identify as being a left wing, very left. You never get a Stewartly of the right, do you? And he went, no, you wouldn't. And he went, but what's the problem with that? And I went, well, it's biased, doesn't it? It's not balanced. Yeah. And he went, oh, yeah, I suppose you're right. He says, well, so what would the Stewart Lee of the right talk about? I went, well, you talk about BLM, for example. You talk about

how these people are trained Marxists. You talk about how they want to abolish capitalism, whilst living in a country that gives them the very fruits of capitalism. And he got very, very shaky at this point, shook my hand and then left. Really? Well, there you go. And that's the people who are designing what comedy is. So I guess all I'm saying, and this is not specifically about David Bediel or anyone

else, it's like, I mean, as an individual performer, you understand the arts. What are you supposed to do? you can do this. Yeah, sure. You can go on YouTube and start a channel and ruin any chance you ever had of a mainstream career until you get so big. They have to get you in.

But that is not a path that many people are going to be willing to walk. No, look, I totally, unsarved, had one of these panel discussions recently. It was that the, you know, the greatest thing, the Institute of Ideas, battle of the idea. Battle of ideas, yeah. And, you know, there was one guy who's saying, you know, we've lost our guts and we've got to have courage.

The time said, law, it's all very easily said and done. But, you know, if you're not in the public eye, I say, and if you've just got a steady job, you've got a family, it's all very well to become a hero and everything like that. You're more likely, I can understand why people would go along and do the unconscious bias training and all of it. I can understand that even though I think it's appalling, but I can totally get it.

So I'm not to say, I'm not being too harsh, I think, on, I hope, on people. But I think that really we've sort of identified. It's just that people who would hire and fire you, or people who will commission you, or people who decide what exhibits should be in museums, and people who publish books, and people who commission dramas, and people who make films, all of these people.

They're the ones who essentially, I think, would be quite similar, I think, in a way to what your guy said. And the worry is as well. So Ben Shapiro is starting a conservative film company and arts company, etc. And look, good luck to Ben. And I hope he's a success in it. And I hope he produces great films and great art. I don't want to live in a world like that, Peter.

No, no. I don't want liberal art. I want art. I just want art. Yes. Well, yes, I mean, I totally get it. But I think that, unfortunately, everything has been politicized now.

And this is a big quandary. I mean, this is a big quandary for many people. What do they do? Do they actually give up doing these things? Do they go off and sort of like... There's a great book out called The Benedictine Option by Rod Dreher, American writer. And he's essentially saying,

how do you live in this kind of society? How do you live in a decline? where there is a... Well, you can go off rather like the name of the rose, you know, the monks. You can go off and you can actually sort of get together the very best, actually, what we've got, and you can just

love it and you can live amongst beauty and all of that. Or, you know, essentially, you just keep trying to fight what you think is wrong. You say, I don't want to live in a world like that. Well, what do you do, do you stop doing your show here? No, you don't. You know, you still do it.

So I'd say you should go on. I know that I couldn't sort of just, and I have friends who've more or less done that. They've decided to, you know, have a nice, well, quiet life. That's not fair to them. But they, you know, they don't want to, they've had enough. Whereas I sort of think, well, actually, I'm just going to be shouting at my non-existent TV. You know, I'm just going to be too angry. Yeah.

You know, I'm not a kind of angry person. I'm not a kind of angry person. I think it's a lot of. I'm not going to speak for you, but for me, it's an inability to shut up. I just can't. Shut up. Yeah, I just can't. When I see these people, I just, I'm just, Francis, don't fuck it up again.

Don't do it again. No, I've started speaking before I know. I'm back where I started. Yeah. Well, I think the answer, Peter, if we can sort of chart one before we wrap up, is the reality is that the truth out in the end. It just does. And the success of the New Culture Forum, Trigonometry, and all sorts of other things, you know, you can see this. You know, three years ago, Francis and I would never have had an agent who can help us get our live shows out into the

big theaters. Now we do. We've got TV commissioners, and they're very, very, you know, they're very few and far between and very reluctant and all of that. But once it happens, once you break through, once you show that you've got the numbers, that people want to watch that instead of that crap that they're putting out, money talks. And I think eventually that's what will happen. Well, I mean, I don't know, you know, the agent you mentioned, say, or the commissioning, you say like this, kind of solitary figures, maybe. What these people should do is they should, they should band together

and start bigger agencies, you know, and be quite unapologetic. We are, you know, we've got no trap within you this time. This is what we are. That's, I think, to bring us right back to what we started on, that is, I think, what people have got to do in the long-term future. Well, we shall see what happens, Peter. But in the meantime, keep up the good work. Thank you very much.

I've had such a lovely time. Thank you very much. It's been an absolute pleasure. It's been wonderful. It's been great. And we do still have questions for our local supporters, of course. But before that, our final question, as always, is what is the one thing? we're not talking about as a society

that we really should be. I would say this society would be demographics. Tell us more. Oh, okay. I thought it was one of these questions. It's just a word. I was basically enormous demographic change.

And because all of our politicians are short-term merchants, it's always like kicked into longer, 50, 60 years' time. You know, we're not going to be here. and all the rest. But what the implications are, generally, for our society, when there is considerable demographic change. And I think that, you know, when the census comes out in London, for example, we'll see a dramatic change. There already was in 2011, and I think you'll see that even more.

I'm not, by the way, saying that it's got to be a negative thing. I have my views on it, but we should at least be talking about it, I think. From what angle, Peter? I don't really know what I mean. The effect of example on whether we can, you know, say like what our religion will be, what traditions we will still have or not. Can I make that a bit more concrete? So are you saying that you have concerns about the impact of mass immigration?

Yes. And how that will transform this country, 50, 60, 70, 80 years down the line. Yes, I mean, you know, it's not just an economic thing, it's also a cultural thing. And, you know, I think that, you know, this, basically, because nothing is happening with migration, there are going to be obviously big changes. They should at least be discussed, should they not? You might want a country that sort of is identifiably Britain, or you might not care about it.

But whatever it is, we are not talking about it. It is the most taboo out of all the taboos, really, isn't it? Why do you think that is? That and whether trans women are real women. Yeah, exactly. I think very much for the same sort of reasons we've gone through everything we've discussed. Fear that, you know, fear of being called racist, all of this stuff. All of this stuff.

Peter, it's been absolutely wonderful. If people want to find you online, where is the best place to do that? What kind of site? No, no. Well, basically, I'm on Twitter. Yes. But the New Culture Forum is New Cultureforum.org.org.

And of course you're on YouTube. Yes. When you said what kind of site, I thought you were about to give us your grinder name. Anyway, Peter Wittell, thank you so much for coming on. It's been a pleasure. Thank you for watching and listening to this as well. And we will see you very soon

with another brilliant interview like this. one or Orr Show, all of them go out at 7pm UK time. And for those of you who like your Trigonometry on the go, it's also available as a podcast. Take care and see you soon, guys. We hope you've enjoyed this incredible interview. Remember to subscribe and hit the bell button so that you never miss another fantastic episode. And if you believe that the work we do here at Trigonometry is important, support us by joining our locals community using the link below.