TRIGGERnometry - Laurence Fox: "They Came After My Family"

Episode Date: June 17, 2020

Laurence Fox joins us for a second time. Support TRIGGERnometry: Paypal: https://bit.ly/2Tnz8yq https://www.subscribestar.com/triggernometry https://www.patreon.com/triggerpod Find TRIGGERnometry on Social Media:  https://twitter.com/triggerpod https://www.facebook.com/triggerpod https://www.instagram.com/triggerpod About TRIGGERnometry:  Stand-up comedians Konstantin Kisin (@konstantinkisin) and Francis Foster (@failinghuman) make sense of politics, economics, free speech, AI, drug policy and WW3 with the help of presidential advisors, renowned economists, award-winning journalists, controversial writers, leading scientists and notorious comedians. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hello and welcome to Trigonometry. I'm Francis Foster. I'm Constantine Kishon. And this is the show for you. If you want honest conversations with fascinating people. Our brilliant and returning guest today is a singer-songwriter, actor and one of our favorite human beings in the world. Lawrence Fox, welcome back to Trigonometry. Hi guys. Thanks for having me back. And I should explain before we start, we are, of course, immediately in the post-lockdown situation. We've all got crazy haircuts. France's lost weight, which was never going to happen otherwise. It's true. And the world's about to explode.

How have you been? Well, yeah, just in anticipation of the apocalypse, which seems to be heading our way soon. And which you predicted the last time you were on the show. I mean, I say that with a smile. I don't know why. It's because you're Russian, mate. I know.

We're always due well in an apocalypse, don't we? Yeah, we do. Well, I don't know why I said we do. And to quote Batman, some people just want to watch the world burn. And that is, of course, the three of us. Not actually, because last time you were then being serious, you know, you said you see a fight coming and here it is. Yeah, it's not good, is it? I feel like it was already possibly too late back then in a way because you could see that people lost their good faith and they didn't want to talk anymore.

And, you know, as you go into those arguments and people are just looking to find the tiny disagreement that they can turn into a little hand grenade that they can then turn into from a scum. into a war and you know i think we're probably we're getting there feels very very uneasy doesn't it i don't i'm not i don't feel relaxed i mean no one's going to feel relaxed i mean because we're in the middle of a lockdown but the lockdown and the combination of the you know the tension this building is and lawrence you have been dare i say on a little bit of a journey i mean euphemistically um how are you and how have you found it um i'm all right now it was pretty surprising actually before. But then I suppose on one level,

I was already poking the elephant, wasn't I? Well, give us a bit of the chronology, Lawrence, because when we interviewed you, I believe that, I think it's accurate to say, that was the first long-form interview that you'd done talking about the whole culture war stuff and your thoughts on it. And from there, you do a bunch of other podcasts,

and eventually you end up on question time, which is why I think the journey, as Francis described it, really starts. And we might even include a little clip of that at the top of this. So just take us from there. What happens? So I go into the, I did Radio 5 Live the day before with the eternally moderate, Nihile. And Yasmin Ali Be Brown was on before me.

She's always balanced. And, you know, and I was, because I was singing as well, I was, I could hear her being interviewed. And I was just going, oh, really? which is what I think often when I stare at the TV. And so I sort of vaguely mentioned it in my interview with Nihail and then the next day in Nihail. And then I went to Liverpool on the train and got to question time

and they perhaps sort of everyone's there with their sort of assistance and people with little briefcases and lawyers things and following around their contestants and briefing them and stuff like that. And then I sort of, at one look at the drinks table and thought, no, and won't do that. Because they lay out a load of booze.

I think they'd probably want to kind of get people going. Yeah, so you do a George Best, basically. Do a George Best, or an Oliver Reed. And then, yeah, I mean, I just said what I thought, which I would have said at a TV if I was staring at the TV watching it. Do you know what I mean? I would have said exactly the same thing. And then you forget that millions of people are watching it

because you're just sort of responding how you'd respond. and then I went back to the hotel and Shappi wasn't massively keen on a chat and a catch-up post-question time moment and then we were sitting there and I thought I was all fine and then I went to my bedroom. Shami Chakrabati.

Shami Chacrabati. Okay well you're now racist because you mispronounced one word of one letter in her name. Always suspected it. Now it's true. And yeah so she wasn't really up for a chat and I went to my room And I took one brief look at Twitter and I thought,

why have I got 75,000 Twitter followers? And then I woke up next morning and I had like 100 and something else. And it was all kind of fairly good natured at the beginning. I didn't feel too like I was being jumped on. And then sometime the next afternoon, it started getting really quite nasty. And I started going, oh, I might have to have an opinion about some stuff. and then it slowly descended into sort of a major pylon

and a sort of, you know, the bad faith pylons that Twitter are famous for, they just, you know, you want to be, people want to misrepresent you in the media or do it the same. So I then got very shocked. So then went to see my doctor because I was having massive panic sacks and she gave me some pills, which are great, by the way.

I've just come off them. So, hang on. And I thought, I would have passed, it blow over, give it a week. And then it didn't. And it carried on going, it carried on going. And it culminated in equity, the Actors Union, which I'd missed, actually, by the by of them saying, you know, I'm a disgrace and denounce. And I'd thought, well, you know, this is, that's what unions do, don't they? When you used to watch the tube strikes and stuff, you'd always have Bob Crow going, you know, using really emotive language.

And you'd think, cool, whatever. but then someone says to me that's a big deal actually because that's your actors union you don't want that at the top of when someone Google's you know that would be the equivalent of Bob Crow denouncing his own transport stuff or whatever union he was set of Lawrence Fox's the worst train driver we've got world shittest train driver award goes to Lawrence Foxx

I've always wanted to fight that prick yeah right so where was I yeah so then I um I was really shocked. Lots of, you know, my family didn't know what to do, really. It was really affected my family. People came after my family, came after my loved ones. And I thought I have to do something practical.

Can I just touch on something? What do you mean came after, Lawrence? They attacked, you know, they attacked, they tried to draw divisions between my family members. You know, people would, the media would comment on various parts of my, you know, relationships. I was having within the family that they just weren't informed about. And I then got some calls from my family saying that what are we going to do about this?

Because this is really upsetting for everybody. And I'm like, yeah, no, I know. I get it. I'm right there. And so it just got worse and worse and worse. I threatened to sue actually for defamation because I think at the end of the day, you know, what they said to me was unfair. I didn't think I was really, I mean, I admit, you know, it's a fairly controversial thing to say that

Megan Markle as an actress may have an ego that may, you know, and want to be center of attention, which is sort of what I was saying. I didn't really have any interest in the color of her skin or anyone else's skin, really, because I just, it's not really, I know, it's really bad to say that, isn't it? Yeah, it's horrific. I mean, the thing I actually said at the time is, and this is purely a reflection of my ignorance about Megan Markle. I'm not, I don't watch that many movies with her in them. I didn't realize that she was quote unquote black. Like, people with her skin tone. Is she black?

Well, apparently. Oh, okay. Right. I didn't know. I still don't know that. I just want to say I'm a massive fan of you, Megatine. Francis is a massive fan. Any woman of color, really.

Yeah. But, but, I'm very liberal. Anyway, let's carry on. Very progressive, especially down below the waist. But this is the point is, like, Like, I didn't know that she was black. I don't think people did, did they? I think there were been rumblings in the press of the fact that she was being treated different.

But, I mean, I didn't really read the press. So the last time I'd seen Meghan Markle was at her wedding. And that looked like a pretty nice shindig to me. And it looked like, you know, they were interviewing people outside and we all watched it as a family. And it was like, raw wedding time. We love it. And everyone was like, this is brilliant. She's great.

I'd not read anything negative. So I was like, come on, guys, this is not about racism. This is about an actress who has not properly thought through what giving your life in service to the Crown is all about. Well, that's part of it. I think the other part of it is what happened is she started and then encouraged Harry to start lecturing the public about how they should behave.

And you made that point on question time about actors. You know, actors who preach about, you know, at the time it was extinction rebellion, that was the big thing. And then hop in their private jet and go to the Bahamas for a three week. beach holiday, right? And that's kind of what the royals, those two royals were doing. And I think a lot of the public, and as reflected in some of the press, were pissed off about that. And as you said, that's not really about race, is it? That's... No, I don't think it is. People don't like being

lectured to anyway, do they? And also, when you're finding things to divide people, it's, it stops conversations. So, you know, if you subjectivize something like race, which you've got to do, because if someone says, the only lived experience you have in life is your own. That's it. There is no other lived experience, but your own. And, you know, you can sort of see into the windows of other people that you know really well.

But so one wasn't denying subjective feelings of racism, but this sort of overwhelming, we are really, really racist. And I'm like, well, you know, we live, we're so racist. And why are people crossing the Mediterranean on rubber dinghies to get to these horrible, bigoted shores of ours. I mean, Francis and I both have met real racists,

so it's not like they don't exist. I work with one, mate. I know. I know here. I don't know why I'm here. Are you four of us? So now you know you've met some real racists as well. Welcome.

So, I mean, they do exist. The question is, is one stupid racist reflective of society? That's really the question that you were addressing. Yeah. And it's, it becomes an, agenda then slightly it feels to me so if you're going to talk about systemic racism then at some point i'm going to need some facts that's i'm just going to need it because i can't take your word for it

if that's not my lived experience now i'm you know i qualify that by saying i don't i haven't had the lived experience of a you know i was speaking to a friend the other day he said you've not been called a packie and being told to go home i mean the home secretary said it on tv but apparently i read yesterday that that's gaslighting other ethnic minorities and you're like if the home secretary whose brown has a view and says, I was called the Paki in the schoolyard, and then you're going, she's now the Home Secretary.

That would point towards the fact that possibly this country is quite progressive in terms of how we handle race. So essentially race is now an opinion rather than a colour of your skin, it seems, to me. And because when you were talking about it, did you feel that you sort of stumbled into a landmine issue or onto a landmine issue, without being fully aware of what would it happen?

Yeah, no, I had no idea. I thought it was a fairly sensible comment. I mean, I didn't look at it for a long time, and then I looked at it much later on, and I thought, yeah, no, I do believe that. I stand by that. There's nothing, I mean, I maybe shouldn't have banged my head on the desk, because that was just slightly disrespectful, but it was frustrating. And you're being walked into an argument that the minute you accept the argument exists,

you've lost the argument because I didn't accept the terms of the argument that she was laying down. So therefore it wasn't really an argument. It was a lecture. And, you know, nothing bristles some of them being lectured to. We don't want a lecture to each other when we talk to each other. Absolutely. And then there was obviously the Sikh comment, which is where, Look, I spend a lot of time telling you what's wrong with the world. So let me tell you about something that's actually right. Sleep, specifically getting more of it, better quality. The kind where you wake up and feel like like a human being, rather than someone who's been thrown down a staircase. Most mattresses are just layers of synthetic foam and crossed fingers.

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Go to avocado greenmatress.com slash trigger to check out their mattress and furniture sale. That's avocado green mattress.com slash trigger. Avocado green mattress.com slash trigger. It actually, it really, really went to the next level and it all became very, very vitriotic. Would you like to tell us about what happened there? Well, the seat comment was in a podcast. And also, listen, the thing about podcasts is that their opportunities, because they're long-form. discussions. There are opportunities to talk. You don't turn up with the finished article of your ideas,

do you? You don't turn up and go, right, this is my position on X, Y and Z. You talk to learn to understand, to gain more insight and knowledge. So I did think when I saw 1917, I thought it felt slightly tokenistic that there was just one Sikh soldier. I thought you could have a platoon in the back of that truck. And, you know, and so it's a fairly innocuous statement. I mean, helpful, possibly not. Was Samendi trying to do something really good and to point out? Yeah, absolutely. But again, it was a bad faith argument. It's like, you know what I meant, you know.

But this is what I said to you at the time, man, is like, I knew exactly what you meant. And the funny thing about that is, obviously people won't know this, but you were the one that recommended I watched 1917 before that. You actually gave me a DVD of it to watch. And you said, this is a great movie. Yeah, it is a great movie. Go watch it.

And I did. But the thing with that comment was, I think everybody knew exactly what you meant, including many Sikhs who came out and supported you. But you can't give an inch to these people. If you allow them even any opportunity to misinterpret something, you say they will go for you. I think that's right. And that's fine because people are in charge of themselves and have their own agency. And that's cool. Where it stops being fine is the media.

So I would remember David Williams then Charming dude that he is with possibly no dark past Standing on the stage at the National Television Awards Talking about how empty my diary was And he was slightly hissed in a way He was food It wasn't appreciated And then he went on to make a joke about Caroline Flack

Straight after And then Caroline Flack He's in a slightly different position to me emotionally for whatever reason we were two separate individuals went on to take her own life. And I would say that the media and herself and all, everything, but are culpable in some aspect of that and including David Williams. And David Williams' approach was just to turn off Twitter for seven days and then get back to posting pictures of his dog.

So, yeah, I think that it's important that we were able to just free. really express ourselves in good faith. And that Sikh comment was, you know, people knew, people knew what I was saying. But, you know, I had to go on this. I went on Good Morning Britain. I think ultimately what I really should have done was just shut all the doors to everything and hunkered down. But because of this thing about the fact that they won't let you go, they're like dogs, wild dogs coming after you. You have to fight back.

You do. Which I did fight back for a while. But then I looked at the Sikh comment and looked at it. And I thought, you know what, that I could misinterpret that. And in order to reduce flames and energy and heat and anger, because that's what you want to do in life, that's what I want to do in life, while still maintaining the right to freedom of speech,

I thought I will just say, look, I think everyone who died in war and everyone who served in war is a really bad thing. And, you know, it just re-energises them to come. So you can't really, once you've been tarred and feathered, all you're doing is getting more tar and more feathers every time you open your mouth. So, you know, like, that's why Trump is so successful

because he just doesn't care. It's like the man is Teflon, isn't he? You say anything to him, and he's just like, he doesn't care, to the point of comedy almost. And Lawrence, I was going to ask as well, is with social media, do you think that what it makes social media, what social media does is it makes it very, very easy to demonize someone? Because sitting opposite from you, I get the fully rounded human being.

But on Twitter, you just get the advertising, fertile with a little picture, therefore it makes it so much easier to create in my mind who you are. Absolutely. Twitter is a horrible place. You know, I turn it off once in a while. I certainly turned it off. I had to turn it off at one point because I was going, geez, I'm never going to get another job. And, you know, but it still happens.

The problem is once you stifle a really little debate, like about nuance, if you take something nuanced and someone takes a very strong, position on a very nuanced issue, then when you get to the big issues, you're fucked. Because, you know, and so it's in bad faith, this thing. And I know I keep saying it, but I'm done with that conversation. So it, and that's really sad. And that's why we're heading towards where we're heading probably this, well, last weekend, depending, you know, is that people are just putting down words and they're picking up aggression and anger and violence. And, you know, and where's that going to lead us? And the point you made about the media, I think, is very powerful

right now, but actually you reminded me when you talked about the David Williams joke. That joke, as comedians, you know when a joke works or not. That joke died. It died on its ass, but here's my point. I only found out about what happened

and read about it and watched it because I saw a newspaper article which said, David Williams brilliantly destroys Laura or something along those lines. They just lied. They just fucking lied. They took something that happened and they misrepresented it as the opposite.

Yeah. How does that, how does that happen? David Williams largely succeeds. David Williams is largely peaceful character assassination of Lawrence Fox. You know, it's really bad. I'm all right because I have a really good support network, but you do have to think about the people that aren't all right. And you do have to think about that, you know, what the likelihood of people appearing in

reality TV shows ending up with severe mental health problems, you know, and how much of is Twitter's responsibility. And, you know, someone said to me recently, they said, I was like, I'm just got to get off Twitter, I can't cope with it. And they said, the best minds in, you know, in the Silicon Valley are working on ways of keeping you on Twitter. The smartest, cleverest people are trying to keep you on there. And it's, and you go, yeah, this is a, this is bad.

This is really, really painful. So I think the only constant I can find in the whole thing, it's not all the media either. It's the outrage media that have just gone, they've got dealt their hand, and their hand is like the 10 of truth, the jack of honesty, and the six of whatever. And they just throw it down and they go, right, what do I want to do here? And I suppose they've always done it, but it's probably got more power now. It's got more reach, you've got more shares. Everything I say, for example, is digitally permanently there.

It isn't like people who say any olden those. It isn't yesterday's tomorrow's chip paper even. It's there for you to see. But I would rather speak a lot and get a few things wrong than not speak at all ever. Hello and welcome to my hangout. It's Baro del Legende. Now, we've got a new sponsor for you this week. It's ConfigR IT, basically.

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I've just spoken a load of words I've got no idea what any of this means and I remember on our first interview when you started

saying your opinions some of which I really agreed with in my in my head because I know a little bit

about acting I've got friends who are actors I'm thinking he's fucking nuts you can't say

that and expect because acting as we all know is the most liberal in inverted commas industry there is and by that I mean it's famously illiberal if you disagree with any of what they say or think have you found that your bookings have gone down

have they been reduced and all the rest of it well we hit the lockdown didn't we but I did get my favourite ever text message saying something along the lines of acting what are you doing acting is the most liberal compassionate business in the fucking world you'll never work again and I'm like you

I mean, how do I deal with this as a text message? I think that there are, what's so interesting about acting that I've noticed now because I've started to look at it, is I don't look at the ones that do the, I'm responsible. I don't look at those ones. I look for who's not in those videos.

And I've started to see, and you start to notice who's not in those videos. And then you start to look at what sort of parts they play and stuff like that. And you start to go, oh, okay, so there is something going on. There is a culture or also, within show business.

But, you know, we are, I think a lot of films now, you often with your leading males especially, they're much less sort of, I don't know, testosterone than they would have been back in the day. They're much more available and vulnerable than your classic leading man would have been. And hence, you know, the films have a slightly different quality to them.

You know, there's less shootouts. You know, you tend to get one or two films a year where you'll get a lot of proper, meated out kind of Western-style violence or whatever. And then the rest will be sort of complex dramas that, you know, it's like watching your best friends. So it's like, I don't, I want to be transported when I watch films. So I've started watching older films again now.

I mean, older films for me, like, you know, Goodwill Hunting or something like that, that are, they're not all so problematic. I mean, I watched Mrs. Doubtfire the other day, and I was triggered. Oh, man, you watch anything from, like, 10 years ago and you're going, what, they made this? What? And it's like 10 years ago.

But you know, as you were talking there, it reminded me of something because I talked a lot to my grandparents and parents about life in the Soviet Union. And the stuff you're talking about where you have to look for who's not signing up to a cause is exactly what we had. Like I get messages now from people going, oh, you know, by the way, this other comedian, he's one of us. And I'm going, like, what do you mean one of us? Like, why do we have to speak and hushed tones and private messages about us?

Like, this is, there's something seriously fucked up here. If people like us have to, you know, gather in private and, you know, keep our voices down, which is what's happening. But what's so good is now we're living in the world where people have the most information they've ever had. Yeah. So that's a good thing when people use it well. And it's a really bad thing when people use it badly. But ultimately, you know, if it all goes wrong, we can just go and live in Chaz.

I want a passport. You do you go and live in. I love the fact that they've given it the name of a really posh woman in from Clapham. Chaz, darling. Chaz. And next door they'll have Dave. Yeah. I'm not sure we're going to get visas for that, mate.

Do you not think we're welcome in? No, I, that, yeah. We might have the wrong skin color, mate. Are we not the, are we not the, we're just different signs of the same? coin. This is the whole point, isn't it? You've got, throughout history, there's been sort of crazy doomsday cultist lunatics and they have to be countered with, you know, fairly rational, reason, sensible thought. But it's exploding now because I think people forget as well. A friend of mine said to me the other day, he went, I didn't realize how thick some younger students were because

he said they just didn't, they've not been taught this stuff. So I was taught at school about the Soviet Union and I was taught about Nazi Germany and we studied it in crystal maths and all this stuff not to some great standard I'm not the smartest man in the world but I know about it and I know the motives behind it and I you can see the trajectory of how these things play out I don't think these guys get taught it I think they're far too busy being taught that you know to fail his first attempt at learning or something you know it's it's sort of there's a sort of I don't know it lacks it lacks weight there's that none of the arguments have any weight so I'm yet to meet someone. I mean, what's that dude on David Pacman? He's got some fairly decent

left-wing arguments. And, you know, my mate Paul has got some good left-wing arguments, and I appreciate those. But, you know, the screechy, screechy, fuck you, fuck you stuff, is like, well, where do we go with that, mate? You know, you scream at me all you want at the end the day. Where does it end? Either I turn you off or, you know, I can turn you off. You see, I just do nowadays. I don't block them. I just mute them. And I just have this wake up and with a warm feeling of someone going, fuck you, fuck you, fuck you, into the ether for forever.

And how do we get out of this situation? Because it just feels, and I don't think it's unfair in saying this, and that it just feels like it's getting worse all the time. How do we get out? I don't think we're going to, I don't think we are going to get out. Thanks, mate. I'm sorry, I've got a feeling that there's a cycle of life,

and after a long period of peace, people want a fight. And it feels so aggressive. And so it doesn't feel like there is a conversation to be held. And it also feels like people are taking sides as well. Like, you know, corporations are taking sides. Individuals are taking sides. And they're sort of weighing up who's going to win and go, I'll be on that side.

And ultimately, you know, it feels like those that are willing to fight in the cruelest and nastiest way are probably going to win. But ultimately, the best reaction, the best generals in response are the ones that are much more cold and much more measured, you know, and they just go, this is how I will defeat. you in the long run but I've got a feeling it all get bad I don't feel it's it doesn't seem like it's getting any less bad does it you know it's I feel very depressed about it and I feel sad for my kids you know and you know I said I said the other day about this taking the knee thing I was like I totally stand by anyone's right and desire to take the knee I'm just

not going to do it because and I was walking around the park with that dude amru because he started slagging me off on Twitter and he lived in near where I live and I was like why don't we just get together for a chat and he's a left wing trans person yeah yeah yeah he he's got a lot of intersections going on and uh he was slagging me off and I was like oh man nice to meet you and I think that disarms people sometimes and I said listen don't you don't need to hate me we can talk why don't we go for a walk you've got a dog I've got a dog. So we go for a walk.

He explains to me that, you know, why taking a knee is a good idea. And I said to him, okay, I take that on board. But you have to understand that in our sort of all the way up from sort of feudal culture through the middle ages up to today where you're taking a knee to get knighted by the queen. As part, it's ingrained in every sort of person in English culture that taking a knee has totally different significance than it does to where, what it does for, you know, people in America. or people somewhere else. So there is an argument there for someone to defend the right to say, well, I see it as an act of subservience rather than an act of solidarity.

It's, that's okay in my view. Anyway, Amri then says to me, so good to talk to you. This is in public. He's going so good to talk to you. I recommend you read this book. So I go, great. I'll get that book and I'll read it. I recommend you read Doug's Murray's Madness of Crowds.

And he went, no. I'm not going to read that transphobe stuff. And having read Douglas Murray, and there's nothing transphobic about man at all. In fact, his chapter on trans issues in the madness crowds is so sensitively handled that I thought, wow, that's incredibly withheld for, you know, someone who can be quite pointed like Douglas.

And I just thought, there we have it. The difference between you and me, Amru, is I'll read your book, but you won't read mine. And therefore, you know, when it comes to a fight, which no one wants, you're fighting with one hand tied behind your back if you come from a place of reason. Because they don't care what the rules are. I think it's quite deliberate. I think it's the way that the ideology is designed. It's designed in such a way that it's closed off to external information.

Because if you argue, as they do, that words are violence, that by saying that you don't think that, you know, if you just, say that you're a woman right now. Like that, you've become a woman, for example, right? That is erasing the identity of somebody or that is violence against them. And if that's the case, well, if I thought that reading a book is the equivalent of punching me in the face,

maybe I wouldn't want to read that book either. So if you think in that way, it all internally within that system makes sense, and that's how the system is designed. It's designed to prevent new information from coming in. Yeah, well, it's, it is what, It's a religion. It's an impenetrable, very dangerous religion.

And they keep coming up with these. The problem is they can't live up to their own edicts. So essentially, the only way they can forgive is by forgiving their own kind. So you'll have Trudeau taking a knee. And at no point will anyone point out the enormous hypocrisy of the fact that he had to build his own penis out of whatever in socks in his when he was blacked himself up for stuff. And you're like, that takes effort. Wait, did he do that?

You blacked your own knees up in your ripped jeans. Like, you really went to town on this look, Trudeau. You know, and I just think it makes sense. And therefore it's very difficult to live in a world. So in my sense, sort of, oh, wo is me, Lawrence. I'm like, how can these people constantly come up with new edicts that they break day after day after day, throw themselves endlessly into these problems

and constantly forgive each other but everyone else is a heretic. What's the way out of that? Because the rational and sensible people in this world are not going to put up with that. And they were saying 70% of Democrats in America were in support of the National Guard going on to the 70% of Americans,

sorry, not the Democrats, were in support of putting the National Guard in the streets during the riots. And I mean, I couldn't get 70% of people to agree on anything. So there is a groundswell against these guys And then you know you worry about where that groundswell manifests itself And you know you go and try and pull down the wrong statue

With a few people that are fiercely patriotic in you know in the sense that they are patriotic And you're going to have a big rumble And who wants that and why are the police not stopping that And why are we not you know why is that you shouldn't be happening It offends people you don't want to don't offend people you don't offend people people. Francis, before you jump in, just very quickly, I should say we're recording this on a Friday before a weekend. Who the fuck knows what's going to happen, man? Anyway, go for it. But I think the problem is, is, I think it comes to both sides, isn't it? In that they're unaware

at times of their own, of what will be the long-term consequences of these actions. So they pulled down the Edward Colson statue now. There's perhaps a very strong argument that we shouldn't have a statue of somebody who made a large amount of money from slavery. However, by taking down the statue, that then creates a ripple effect where we look at all other statues and go, well, should we take this down? Should we take that down? Should we take down Cromwell's statue after the atrocities in Ireland? And then what you start to have is erasing people's history, which will then really wrangle with the other side. But people don't seem to want to acknowledge that. It's crazy, especially over the statue thing,

because also as much there's an argument for removing it, it's an argument for leaving it in place, right? So it's whatever happens, the argument for leaving it in place is, you know, you take your children to the statue and they go, who's that? And you go, this guy was a famous slave trader. And they're like, what slavery?

And you tell them. So there's a great, there's a solid argument for that, but there's also a solid argument for removing it. But whatever the argument is, it needs to be a democratic process. Because once the mob take over, it's like, hang on a minute. You know, that's not how we do these things.

I mean, I don't know the history of the statue. So I think they had been lobbying. The council to have it removed and whatever. But yeah. They had a vote on it and it was 54% of people didn't want it removed. Well, there you go. And maybe, look, if they had a vote now, I'm sure it would be removed. And your point about the democratic process is absolutely right.

It's interesting that you mentioned that there's an argument for keeping these things up, maybe with a plaque that explains who this person was, what they did, etc. Because I went to school. and in my school, one of the alumni was Douglas Haig, who was the commander of the British Armed Forces in World War I, right? Responsible for the over-the-top tactics, etc., which large near-acknowledged as being terrible, having led to the deaths of thousands of young British men

for no purpose whatsoever. And we were taught about this. It's cool. We would walk past a statue every single day, and then we'd go to a history class, what they would tell us, this is what this guy did, he was a fuck up right and we'd learn about it what do you want what what do you want to arm children with knowledge that's what you want to arm them with you don't want to arm them with opinions you know

you can give your kids are going to pick up your own opinions anyway aren't they and they're going to pick up the opinions of the people that teach them and all that sort of stuff but you arm them with knowledge and you've given the tools to understand and I've got a horrible feeling that it's been this has been going on for years this deliberate indoctrination and removal of of any form of ability to think for yourself critically think, and you're just sat there. You know, I've lots of conversations with people where they'll just spew things that aren't true at me.

And I'll have to go, okay, but this is the thing, this is the truth. It's like having an argument with someone who's screaming in your face and you video it on your phone and then you show it back to them and they went, I wasn't angry with you. And you're like, okay, where I don't even know where we begin. So, yeah, educate, educate, educate. Kids are curious creatures. I care, mainly the reason why I actually say this stuff is because I have children.

I don't really care so much for myself, but I'm looking at this going, God, if it's this bad now, what's it going to look like when they're young adults? I don't want them getting into a scrap. So sort of vainly and stupidly, I thought, well, maybe it is worth lobbing my five eggs into this conversation. But, oh boy, have they tried to make me pay for it? It's been painful. And Lawrence, do you regret getting involved in this conversation? No, no. Truth is the truth man. You got to stick to the truth. Truth is what matters. Truth

information allowing people to work out what to think. Argue the shit out of it. Fight with each other. Disagree. Don't fight physically, but really, you know, allow it, allow it to happen. Allow these conversations to happen. If they don't happen, other things happen. And that's what happens. Profound shite of the day. And it's not shite at all because this is, you know, this is why we started the show. We started the show two years ago on a much smaller scale, but we've gone through exactly the same thing with our careers. But I've got to be honest to you, and I've said this to people in private, but I'll say it too now, I think we're failing. I don't think we're succeeding.

What do you mean? I mean that the way the world is going. I don't think us talking about it is going to stop it. So what's your tentative? I don't know. That's a Russian and you coming out again, mate. I'm going to write a three-and-a-half-hour play about it, where the protagonist shoots himself I've had the end.

And we'll call it a comedy. Yeah, exactly. That's a check-off joke for anybody. Anyway, well done, mate. That's the first time Francis has elevated himself above the level of wank jokes in about three months. We'll be back to wank jokes, guys. Don't worry about it.

I know my core audience. So what the... I don't know, man. I want to have an answer. I want to go, this is what we do, and then this is what we do, and then this is what we do. But all I can see now, as I look into the future,

is how do you stop the violence in the short term? Okay, well, you prevent the protesters from different sides from getting together. That's what you do, right? What do you do after that? What's the next step? It's that one up there, I'm afraid. It's the only answer, whether you believe in it or not,

it's the only answer. Because what are we going to come out of this with? We're certainly not going to come out of the situation that we've just been through with a great faith in scientists. It's like, don't worry, I'm a scientist. I'd be like, oh, fuck. You know, it's the scientists are the newest date agents nowadays, aren't they? It's like, so people need meaning, right?

We've spent a long time looking for science. We have to turn around and look to the values, the real values that society was built on. And those are Judeo-Christian values. And that's, you've got to look up there and look at what was said by him and what was said by the people that followed him. That's what I reckon.

That's my view. And that's not coming from a person who's, like, profoundly religious. I'm just going, there is a manual. They wrote a book about it. this before you know and and and try and bring some of those those values back you know very complex things within the Bible that are really tricky to get your head around and they can educate and you know all you can do is educate your kids educate the people around you like I've sort of took took a bit of a break

off Twitter and I've started using our family WhatsApp group instead so that I want to share this information because you know you're not gonna get back but you can still disagree you know and just gather with all sorts of people and always offer them your good faith. That's the only thing I can think. Because, you know, it's going to be abused regardless by a small minority. But I think they are a small minority. I don't think people are as stupid as the media think they are.

And I don't think people are as sheepy as the media and the Twitter think they are. And I think people think that Twitter's real world. It absolutely isn't. You know, think about all the people that don't tweet, man. I got a stack of letters, a stack, huge stack of letters just from people saying, thank you so much for saying that and it's like 33 Cosgrove Lane Lincolnshire

you know and it's like someone getting fucking cancelled right now the police were called 33 Cosgrove Lane Lincolnshire this morning reports of a man yeah so I think there's a very look the more

peaceful side of the argument is quieter it doesn't want to get into trouble I'm in trouble I mean I'm not I am but I'm not ultimately I'm not because I'm not I know that I'm not trying to operate my heart in a negative and malicious way in a level to cause other people harm I'm trying to go this not cause each other harm and And in spite of all of the shit that has been chucked at me, I'm grateful for that shit, actually,

because it makes you stronger. And, you know, I just don't feel you can do that alone, as I said before. I'm just like, when I felt like that, I'm like, help me, please get me out of this. I don't go like, or I call a friend or whatever, but I'm not like, oh, maybe I'll read this. You know, it's like, no, it's within you. You know, the world is within you. Your world is the world.

So, you know, you better off being your soul. than being anyone else, as Oscar Wilde said, isn't it? And do you think there are a lot of, there are some people who use what is happening very cynically as a way to promote their career? Well, no. Francis. You're now responsible.

I'm responsible. I, yeah, totally. But, you know, also I don't blame them. Have your opinion. It doesn't bother me. Just allow me mine. And that is where we're fucked is the fact that we're fighting over the right

to have an opinion. And by that time, like I said, in a bad faith argument, you've already lost. You know, if you're not meeting someone and going, I have an opinion, you have an opinion. You know, I could see the way that Amory was looking at me. He'd made up his mind about me, and I'm never going to change his mind about me,

but it will never stop me inviting him to go for a walk. And that's the best you can do. And you hope that in some recess of my brain stuff that he says, He said something really interesting to me about racism, right? Which stuck with me, and I've kept it. He said it's like mosquito bites being subjected to racist attacks. Like, one is not too bad.

It's a bit annoying. But he says, you get hundreds of them. Your life becomes unbearable. And that really stuck with me. And I thought, that's a really brilliant way of explaining it. And I've taken that away. And I've thought, yeah, we should be more. We should be gentler and more understanding and more aware of these issues.

because they do cause people great hate. But when I returned with, you know, well, later on, around our little walk around the park, and I spoke about the, you know, what kneeling potentially would mean to, you know, someone who born English, went to an English school, you know, whatever colour that they are,

it's like, no, don't agree. And I'm like, okay, well then, you know, we're fucked then, aren't we? But you've got to keep talking to them. Because you've got to love them. Love your, what is it? I love the enemy. I'm really good. What is it?

Or stab him in the face. Love your enemies. You know, you do. There's no other way. What do you want to do? I build a heart full of hatred for these people. I'm like, no, fuck off. I love you.

It's fine. Do what you want. Do your worst as well. And I always remember this quote. We were talking to Count Dan killer, the guy who made the pug video, and he said something that always stuck with me. He said, we don't really believe in forgiveness anymore.

do you think that's the case well they don't certainly there is no forgiveness in that religion is there because it's so immediate and the intersections are so constant that it's like ISIS

someone was saying to me that within ISIS as an organization you know if you're not the most hardcore terrorist then you'll kill the slightly less hardcore one

you know so it's a competition it's a race to the top of extremism and you know so they're in incentivize you becoming more and more crazy and insane. And, you know, look, they're canceling their own now. So hopefully they'll, you know, go and all go off to Chaz for the summer. Do you think they'll summer in Chaz?

Where are you summering this year? Chaz. Do you know how transformational that would be for so many people to go and actually see their little utopia play out in all its horror and dirty glory? Well, maybe that's why he's leave. Maybe that's why the Orange Man Bad is leaving, not saying anything about it. He wants them all to form one big Chaz and just leave him in there for a couple of weeks. They'll learn.

America's in a place where what would happen if he ordered his generals to go into and break up Chaz. That's where America's at. So we think we're feebrile. Yeah. You know, imagine saying to the police go and protect that statue and the police going to know. I'm just going to stop the conversation here. Do you know how mental that what is just? happened is.

Right. So yeah, there's like a little independent republic now that has called itself Chaz that has walled itself off from everyone

where people now want to live independently and in downtown Seattle and everyone's like, okay. It's just funny now. It's just funny. It's just funny now.

You can't not laugh. You can't take the stuff seriously. And it's obviously a stupid little game because the moment the power companies turn off the electricity and the city stops

taken away the trash and... The vegan sausages run out. The vegan sauce... I was going to talk about something happened, but I can't even be bothered. Like, it's... It's just a joke. It's a game that they play and they

pretend that it's real, but it's not. And I don't know what to do about it because it's just, how can you not laugh at it? They're like badly behaved kids. All right. No, I'm living here and this is my castle. You're not coming into my castle because my castle is a nice castle

with nice princesses and princesses and princesses. thinks you see we're really nice to each other. Is that okay, man? Cool. See you in a bit. Enjoy Chaz. Enjoy Chaz.

Brilliant, I mean, I, Constantine and I disagree with this. I think a lot of the reason why we've ramped up the insanity is lockdown. Yeah, no, I think you're right. And a part of me thinks that would, I mean, the really cynical, horrible part of my brain thinks that's all part of the idea,

all part of the plan. was to put people into that position and then wind them up and see what happened. You know, because, I mean, at the end of the day, how many, I mean, lots of people have died and it's a fucking horrific tragedy and it's really bad for old people, but is the reaction proportionate to the danger? So no. Certainly not. The reaction was certainly proportionate to what Nile Ferguson said the danger was,

but with hindsight, are we going to look back and say the reaction was proportionate to this danger? I think possibly not. on his penis, didn't. Yeah, yeah, that's true. That's true. I still can't hate him. You gotta respect the guy.

He's batting way above his average. He's got the opportunity. He's went for it. How romantic is that? Honey, I've risked death to be here. Death, my career and the future of the country. Just to be here. That's how much I love you, baby.

Them both getting into their little scientific suits, just unzipping their hole. It was, you know, hazmat shagging. Yeah. It's hot. Well, why did we buy it? It's so English that, isn't it, as well? Like, we sort of have a, like, you think,

oh, good old English spirit, we'll get out of this in some way. And then it all ends up fucked. It's so, English, like, we'll solve this, no problem. And then, like, two months later, everyone's like going, and it's like, yeah, you've totally fought everything. I'll tell you why I disagree with the two of you about the lockdown being the critical issue here, because I just see this, you said it.

You said it here seven months ago before there was any lockdown before we had COVID-19, this was always going to be the final destination. And it's the product of 30 or 40 years of the long march of the institutions, indoctrinating young people into thinking or not thinking and feeling everything. If I feel this is true, then it's true. And you see this playing out now. Maybe it accelerated the process, but I don't think it's, I don't think it's a lockdown. What did it?

I think it's the fact that for 40 years they've been making this happen. And, you know, we live in the, you know, ultimately we live in the freest, most democratic situation in the history of mankind. And, you know, if you're still moaning about things, you know, on your iPhone, you know, my kids can't even believe that I didn't have an iPhone when I was a kid. They just don't understand it. Really? So, yeah, they're just like, oh, rubbish.

How did you get in touch with people? What happened when your dad went away at work? I said, I never spoke to him. He went away for three months. And then he came back. too expensive to call on a landline to, you know, wherever he was filming. And so they just don't understand it. So there is an element of being a bit spoiled, I think.

And I don't like the argument that we're not doing enough to try and reduce inequality because none of these conversations seem to be about reducing inequality at all. They seem to be about maximizing it and maximizing division. And all of the things, I mean, I've said it from the beginning. I think the Wokey bunch are exactly what they're. accuse you of to the very core and it starts off with racism you know well they're racist I've always said they're the new racist that's what they are so easy to to you know throw it all at somebody else and it's so sad yeah I mean I feel I'm I wish I could go like there's an answer but

I'm like there isn't I mean you know people probably try and cancel me again because I would have said something stupid well fuck off sorry it's like but we got to talk talk. Yeah. And, you know, you guys have put this together in that way. And, you know, people disagree. But just disagree. Don't just go, fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck.

That doesn't work. Just go, this is why I disagree with you. Engage with people. Do it in good faith. And we will move on. But we've done it, man. Like, we've invited people who are critical of us onto the show. And do they come?

No. No. They say, we don't want to come on your show. I'm going to be physically attacked by your violent, whatever, follow it. Follow, no, followers. Oh, yeah, but that's how they do. That's what Mihal was saying to me the other day. And he was saying to me, he's like, all of your followers are like white supremacists.

I'm like, all of them are, yeah. Yeah, okay, end off. And our fans don't attack people. They don't go after people. They don't do any of that. We just get people on to talk. And we had Lord Adonis on the show, the architect of the remain second referendum, all of that shit. People downvoted the video, some of them.

Some people up voted the video and appreciated. that we had a conversation. That was it. That was it. Like, Lord Adonis is like Lord Voldemort to the pro-Brexit crowd. We had him on the show. We had a great, respectful conversation. We agreed with some of the things she said.

We disagreed with other stuff. We've had socialists on the show. We've had people from all over the political spectrum. And that's why the cynical part of my brain goes, it's just an excuse. They just don't want to have the conversation. Because they'd lose the conversation. It's like, you know, if you ever try and engage people like that, you just stay quiet and wait for them to tie themselves and they're not.

You know, that's what happens. Anyone who acts in bad faith, you just go, tell me why, sorry? And then they'll expect, they'll say something really compassionate. Start off with something very compassionate. Like, you know, we just need to really support each other. I just don't believe we support each other enough. And I'm like, in what way? Do I agree with you?

What do you think we should do to support each other? He's got no idea, man. He's called him dead. Exactly, because it's like you, the only thing you can be in control of is yourself. And they don't want to be in control of themselves, do they? They want to be in control of you and me. And I'm like, no, I'm not up for that. Thanks, chaps.

Bye. No. And we've come to the end of the interview. It's been absolutely brilliant, Lawrence, but we always ask one question at the end. That is, what is the one thing we're still not talking about that we ought to be talking about as a society? kids education how to educate your children you know don't leave your children to be educated by someone else educate them yourselves as much as possible surround your children with adults surround them with diverse opinions and diverse you know not

diverse colors and all of this stuff god that sounds so patronizing but it's like I don't want to have to point out that diversity includes different colored skin of course it does yeah make sure your kids are a quick to deal with the world because they're the ones that are going to have to deal with what comes next. That's a very good point. Lawrence, thank you for coming back. It is good to have you back. We're all trying to do the same thing, man. I know. And it's important that, you know, I just say, I've seen your journey and I think a lot of people, a lot of people respect you tremendously for speaking on these issues. I respect you tremendously for speaking on this issue. We really appreciate

you coming back. I'm really grateful for you having me. Thank you. and well done for doing what you're doing because that's part of the answer to. All right. Well, make sure you go and check out Lawrence all of his work. White Lions is fucking smashing it. White Lines is smashing it.

Yeah, White Lines is smashing it. Let's see whether my opinions get me into the second semi. Got to say, being half South American, I do love White Lines. See, we've gone back to that kind of basement level of humor as I promised you what happened. The lockdown has served you well, very good.

and I've just broken social distancing on camera, so we're cancelled officially. Thank you very much for tuning in. We'll see you in a couple of days with another brilliant interview, and of course, check out our live streams if you haven't already. That's where all the top-level banter happens.

Thank you very much, and we'll see you very soon. Take care, guys.