TRIGGERnometry - Laurence Fox: "They Seek to Murder Your Opinion"

Episode Date: November 10, 2019

Laurence Fox drops in to talk: - Realising You Don't Have the Right Opinion - Woke Hollywood and #MeToo See Konstantin perform Orwell That Ends Well  London: 24 Nov @ Angel Comedy @ The Bill Murray: https://angelcomedyclub.nutickets.com/54960651 Brighton: Nov 23 @ Artista Cafe & Gallery:  https://artistacafe.gallery/whats-on/konstantin-kisin-orwell-that-ends-well-23rd-november-2019/?fbclid=IwAR0W1dO0c0Qb2NmfyRjEYwfaAdHTi4k2_ZqewEj7Ck_kakcXscLqFVTVHNU Cambridge: Nov 17 @ Cambridge Wine Merchants: https://www.cambridgelive.org.uk/tickets/events/wine-gums-comedy-afternoon-0?fbclid=IwAR0l5ZIVjch5Wzn2OCDn8i2GH_9shxvt93ndNJqpSPbOvv9YaPnldrjqi6Y Support TRIGGERnometry: Paypal: https://bit.ly/2Tnz8yq https://www.subscribestar.com/triggernometry https://www.patreon.com/triggerpod Find TRIGGERnometry on Social Media:  https://twitter.com/triggerpod https://www.facebook.com/triggerpod https://www.instagram.com/triggerpod About TRIGGERnometry:  Stand-up comedians Konstantin Kisin (@konstantinkisin) and Francis Foster (@failinghuman) make sense of politics, economics, free speech, AI, drug policy and WW3 with the help of presidential advisors, renowned economists, award-winning journalists, controversial writers, leading scientists and notorious comedians. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

They have heard something in the water, they seek a cure for the conversation, they stole a march on your indecision. And the first of all was laughter, just to quell the unoffended. They seek to murder your opinion. And the light has been turned out on the age of reason, replaced by blinding fires that burn wild across the region. wrong to rule the good must just stand idly by so I need you more than ever

I need your hand in this resistance if we're going to go the distant doubt in the future sight is one nearest one you said you must blow your wrong mind for that reason from the wrong to rule the good must just and idly by

Hello and welcome to Trigonometry. I'm Francis Foster. I'm Constantine Kissen. And this is a show for you if you're bored with people arguing on the internet over subjects they know nothing about. In Trigonometry, we don't pretend to be the experts. We ask the experts. Our brilliant guest this week is an actor and singer-songwriter. Lawrence Fox, welcome to Trigonometry. Hi, guys. Thank you so much for having me on. Well, we've just played a little bit of your single that has just come out with your house. album, but before we get into talking about what it is that you're talking about and some of

those things, just tell everybody who are you, how are you where you are, what has brought you to the chair that you're sitting in now. Right. Well, my, I'm Lawrence, Fox, obviously. I am an actor and about, when did I start? About 2010, I started writing songs and recording them and they, people like them. So they ended up getting released and all that stuff. And And now I end up on my third musical project now, which I'm just about to release. And I've been watching you guys on the Tintanet. Well, there's a mutual respect happening here, which is always great when it happens. But actually, before I ask about your single, I was going to say, I did a little bit of research.

And I get the sense that you are a lifelong rebel. Is that fair enough? I don't know. We were raised. In our family, we were raised not to take on board what anybody else said. You know, we were encouraged to resolve our own conflicts between ourselves and all. also to be to be free in our thought. And that I think now is bordering on Nazi.

It's slightly, yeah, it's rebellious. I don't like being told what to do. But then I did go to a boarding school for a long time, and that doesn't help with that condition. Yeah, yeah. Well, welcome home, brother. This is the home of rebels. So let's talk about your single because you sent it to me before it came out.

And I was just sitting there playing on repeat for about. an hour because I was so touched by it and it is genuinely like what art in my opinion should be which is where not only are you entertaining and making good music but you're actually saying something so I just want to read everybody a few lines from your single they put something in the water they seek a cure for the conversation they stole a march on your indecision and the first of all was laughter just to quell that and offended they seek to murder your opinions and the light has has been turned down on the age of reason. I should write son.

And you have, and it sounds a lot better when he's actually singing. No, it doesn't. It sounds wonderful. But what are you, what are you talking about, Lawrence? I think I was sat in what used to be called the trailer, but it's now a hutch as an actor up on set last year filming something. I can't remember what it was, probably Victoria or something like that.

And there was this sort of Barney going on outside about Kavanaugh, the Kavanaugh hearings, and the girls were very much of the opinion that, you know, you've got to believe her and he's got to go to jail straight away and all of that. And I was sat there going, what? Do we not do the burden of proof

and, you know, the innocent or proven guilty thing anymore? We've got Twitter now. We don't need that, right? And it started to really bother me. And then I started to become quite obsessed with American politics because I was so bored of the B word. And I just started thinking, I don't think the same as any of these people.

And then I thought, oh, okay, so there's a right opinion. You have to have the right opinion. And the right opinion is Brett Kavanaugh is a rapist who needs to be struck off and not put on this. Gang rapist, apparently. Gang rapist, absolutely. And, you know, Brexit is terrible. And if only we'd know what we were voting for,

everything would be fine, that sort of thing. And I started going, oh, I don't have the right opinion, which bothered me. And then I thought, it's very hard. you try and express what you want to say, however reasonable or unreasonable it is, there is a group of people who will shut you down immediately. And that made me slightly terrified because stuff like reason and, I don't know, again, these terribly racist things like the Enlightenment values of being cast aside and thrown away.

And I just found it scary. And then I'm a dad. So, you know, my kids come and shovel it at me sometimes as well. and I'm sort of going, okay, I need to document this, how I feel about it, and bringing together the thought of presenting quite a negative position, which is, you know, the world's fucked, which is how it feels a bit at the moment, but also saying that you can get through that if you find somebody or other people that, you know, you can do it together with, I think is what I was trying to do.

And you said that you've got, you feel like you're the only one, a sense in your industry. But isn't it, don't you think like a lot of people probably in your industry, feel the same way. It's just, they just worried that if they come out and say these things, their commercial opportunities, their chance to progress is going to be curtailed. Yeah, I mean, I think it's very difficult, isn't it, as in our industry. Well, we're all, you know, actors especially and, well, comedians as well, and anyone, any artists feel that they are quite important in some way, don't they?

But with this sort of death of religion and all of those things and this people becoming kind of a religion of one. It's like what I think and my feelings and my compassion are so important that if you don't agree with me then my God smites you because you're the you're the sinner. It's really difficult. So for me I imagine lots of people think the same way as I do but people just keep their mouths shut because they don't that very small and very vocal minority of people come in and give you a load of jip if you don't say the right thing which is kind of I mean I hate to bandy the word around. A little bit fascistic.

Well, this is an interesting thing that I think expressing some of these opinions as you are doing and as we try to create a space for people to do, it allows other people to look at that and go, oh, maybe I can say what I think. Now, maybe it's okay. Maybe there's other people like me. And that's why it's so great that you've come on

from the music industry and we're going to be talking to people from like fashion world. Like this is everywhere. It's not just comedy, it's not just music, it's not just politics. It is literally everywhere. Well, it's sort of opened up a chasm, hasn't it? Twitter probably as much as possible. And I think Douglas Murray is saying that it slightly started after the financial crisis.

But definitely we're starting to see that there are two opinions in conflict with one another and what they call the left and the right, but what I call the sensible and the mad people. You know the people that want to have a conversation. And you mentioned that you're... your son is bringing some of the stuff home from school. Yeah, I mean, they start them early, don't they? You know, they really do. And it sort of starts with a kind of gentle, insistent fear.

I went to watch him in a football match, and we were encouraged not to clap when he scored. Or, well, he didn't score because he was in defence, but his mate scored. And I was like, get it! And then the PE teacher was a bit like, you know, we don't do that. And I said, what's your opinion on this?

And he said, well, it's actually not that many people that insist on a lack of competitiveness, but they're very vocal about it. So you're sort of left going, what do I do? And then my son will try and say things to me. What doesn't matter? Winning doesn't matter.

And I'll be like, okay, let's play FIFA. And I go from Dad FIFA to Dad FIFA. And then he gets very confused and upset, and I think kids can be in conflict with their own competitiveness. And there's nothing wrong with being a bit competitive. you know, competitiveness is good because one child will become good at something another child will want to raise their game

and then often the other child goes ahead and then your child needs to catch up and it's kind of a good thing. But we're sort of rewriting the entire rulebook of life for some pretty untested theories seemingly to me and ones in my mind are completely contradictory to what I actually think and how I raise my kids, for example.

And was there a tipping moment for you where you just thought, I can't shut up Any longer? I think probably with, I think it must have been when I, once the John Peterson and that, the trans debate started, you know. And then also I had a friend who went to Oxford and she started saying some things to me, which I thought was like, what? Why do I have to think that? And she, and it was the insistence. It wasn't like we could talk and disagree and come to a, you know, compromise in a situation.

It was the insistence. If I didn't agree with her, I was 100% evil, essentially, and needed educating. And now I found that frightening. And it reminded me of history class at school and the communists, you know, and that, which apparently they don't teach at school anymore. You mentioned left and right. And I wonder how much that applies anymore, because, you know, Francis and I, he's old school left.

I'm very much in the centre. I know lots of people on the left who are as concerned about some of this stuff. I think left and right is more a conversation about your economic. views about economic policy. What I think unites people like us and a lot of the people who watch the show isn't where they're coming at from, do they vote labor, or do they vote Tory or Democrats or Republicans, it's much more about are you on board with this woke shit or are you not? And I think that's probably where I'm, what I'm feeling from you is you are fed up of

having that ran down your throat. Yeah, I am fed up of it because I think you must express your thoughts to other people and they must be free to express them back. And that's how you have, who was it? Who was saying, you know, the way democracy works is that the loser has to accept that. It was Rod Little, wasn't it? The loser has to accept that the winner won. And we're now living in this, it is a religion and a sort of cult.

I find it terrifying. I think it's really wrong to not allow people to express themselves freely. Because it's the beginning of the end if you don't do that. What about this idea that it's hate speech and it's inciting violence, and if we talk about, you know, diversity or any of these kind of things that are part of this new religion and we say the wrong thing, well, that makes people feel unsafe and uncomfortable and all this is the counter-argument

that's often. Well, then grow a pair. Genuinely, I've had a lot of nasty things said to me. I've had a lot of nasty things done to me. I've done a lot of nasty things to people and lots of things I regret, but we're a process, right? All of us, we're a process and we can't be categorized in the instant, in the moment. We're a product of things.

and a product of our thoughts and our feelings, we're not just an identitarian, you're this, you're that, therefore your opinion works like that. I can't tolerate it. So I'm now intolerant. I'm intolerant of it, which I suppose is where the problem is because it comes from a place of compassion, doesn't it? The whole woke thing comes from a place of compassion,

understanding the sort of intersections of people, so you have to be very compassion. But compassion is very brutal if applied through a human context, I imagine. I think it's like, it's a dangerous thing because in the service of being compassionate, anything goes. Even the shutting up of people deemed to be non-compassionate.

And therefore, hate speech and things like that, it's convoluted. It's not truthful. You know what hate speech is. Hate speech is an incitement to violence. That's what hate speech is. And it's rightly legalized against, legislated against.

But, you know, calling someone a twat. But it's sort of happening with football as well now. And, you know, while you totally want to stump out racism in football and it's a horrible thing, you would believe that every single person who goes and watches a football game is a virulent racist. And I was taken to plowling constantly by my dad when we were a kid. And there was some racist things said. But there were also a huge number of families there. And there wasn't, you know, there was a lot of just football fans.

there. And you slightly get the feeling now when you look at the papers. It's like, yes, we need to stamp out racism in football. How wonderful and brilliant it was that the English football team made their stand last week. But also you slightly get the other side of that coin, which is all the guys that watch football are racists. You slightly get that feeling. Do you get that feeling at all? Yeah, I do. I get the feeling that a lot of the times what we do is we demonise a working class. The white working class especially, yeah. Yeah, and, you know, so for instance, things like Brexit, they're stupid. They didn't

what they voted for, they're thick, they're racist. The same with football. Yeah. And actually, a large part of football is calling an opposition player who is a young millionaire, a cunt, and you don't should be encouraged. Ginola, ginola, gin,la, his French's query

takes up the rear, ginola, you know, that's what we had. That's what we had. That's what we had when we were at football. It's like, okay, is that hate speech? Well, it is now. I mean, it is hate speech. Yeah.

And it's inaccurate, as far as I can gather, from Jinala. But it's funny too, right? It rhymes. It rhymes. It works. That's the most important thing. As long as it's racism or homophobia rhymes, that's it.

Yeah, you've done. Absolutely. I mean, we're joking, of course, but when you talk about demonizing groups of people, I think that's really what I feel that we're talking about now is like we seem to live in a society that is, according to these people and this ideology, has never been worse. Yeah. It has never been more racist. It has never been more homophobic.

there's never been more intolerance. When we know statistically speaking, it's actually the opposite. It has never been as good as it is now. Yeah, it's exactly right. I think Douglas Murray's right when he says, you know, it was all looking pretty good, and then the train just went off down the tracks and went mad. I noticed it with girls that I know.

You know, the younger the girl, often the sort of, you know, the patriarchy has really done them in. And there's a lot of things blocking them. progress that aren't about them, boys and girls, you know, and you're sort of going, why are you generating a victim mentality for these people? What's the point? Why wouldn't you encourage somebody to overcome their obstacles rather than go, you know, well, it's the patriarch, isn't it? There's only 9.6% of directors are females. And I'm like, but it's going up, right? It's not going down. There wasn't 50% female directors and it's now 9.6. It was there and we're going there.

So what's the problem? Yeah, we can get there better, quicker and faster. But we're not living in a world full of people that hate and abuse and all that. And actual fact, the only hate and abuse I'm encountering is when I say something like that to someone like that. Do you know what I mean? No, absolutely. And where do you stand on the whole sort of Hollywood whitewashing? Because that has been something that we've talked about a lot.

And, you know, characters are originally ethnic minority. Or not ethnic minority. You're a different race. and then suddenly you get a white person playing them, for example, Tilda Swinton in Doctor Strange. Do you think that's a real problem with in Hollywood, or are we starting to tackle it more? I think that you obviously, I mean, I don't know,

because it's called acting, isn't it? Right, so basically the clue is in the word. So Tilda Swinton can play whatever she wants to play Jack Whitehall, can play a gay guy. It doesn't bother me. I'm just played a Mancunian, and I said to an actor friend of mine, I'm playing a Mancunian, he went,

why didn't they get a Mancunian to play? it. And I was like, because it's called acting. That's why it is. I don't know. I think Hollywood probably has been sort of run by the kind of, you know, there is a, but America's a largely white country, right? You know, so you're making a product for the, for the consumer. And as that changes, as the demographic changes, then you get different sorts of films. But I think just racially aware is, can be a very difficult thing to cope with. Because you suddenly are doing that old thing about going, well, where are you from, not can you act.

I think it's more important that being identitarian about things is dangerous because you start going, I wonder why they hired that black actor. Or I wonder why they hired that white actor. And it's like, well, who cares? What color they are?

I think we were much more colourblind actually in the past than we are now. Because, you know, again, Twitter, everyone just rages the minute anything happens. And it's mobbing, isn't it? and it's sort of like stop it. You're ruining fun for me. And I'm sure I'll get nailed for it as well

because someone will come when they see me in my new job, hence the stupid hair, they'll go, why didn't they get, there's plenty of working class actors who are better at doing that. And I'm like, yeah, but at the end of the day,

did they want me to do it? Was I convincing in my audition? If they don't give me the job and then they go down the identity pathway and they give it to the person they like the second best who is from Manchester, then no one wins. I lose out on paying my kids ridiculously large school fees.

And he walks into the job going, I'm not, I was second choice. Look, I spend a lot of time telling you what's wrong with the world. So let me tell you about something that's actually right. Sleep, specifically getting more of it, better quality, the kind where you wake up and feel like a human being rather than someone who's been thrown down a staircase. Most mattresses are just layers of synthetic foam and crossed fingers. You're spending a third of your life on the thing.

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slash trigger to check out their mattress and furniture sale. That's avocado green mattress.com slash trigger. Avocado green mattress.com slash trigger. And we're to, I mean, Scarlett Johansson is someone who's had a phenomenal amount of abuse online. And she says, like, you know, I can play whoever I want. If I want to play a trans character, I'll play a trans character. And the level of abuse that she has been directed at her,

in fact, I think she apologized, didn't she? She apologized? Never apologized. Apologising is of huge mistakes. Why you've got so many powerful, you've got all of the Trumpies and the Borisists because they don't apologize. They double down every time. And, you know, that's sad that you're growing up in a world

by the only way you're encouraged to thrive is by saying, I'm not going to apologize, I'm not taking any responsibility for it. Fuck you. So that's a way of dealing with it. I would, that would be my way of dealing with it. You see, this is where the problem comes in because you're talking about progressing

as a human being. We're all a work in progress. we're all evolving, but you can't evolve if you never accept your mistakes. And if you, but you can't accept your mistakes in public because if you do, that's it. You're over. So we, the lack of forgiveness is what creates this thing where the only people who can thrive in this environment are people like Donald Trump and Boris Johnson who double down, as you say, right?

Is it a problem that we don't seem to do forgiveness anymore? Well, I was raised in a very Christian household and I really rebelled against it. So I'd turn up to my mom and dad's Bible studies mashed and walk in and go like, you're all mankers. And I was very rebellious. But actually, we were raised with this constant idea of the fact that there was repentance and there was forgiveness. But that was done, you know, through prayer and these things. And actually, I mean, I don't know where I sit in my faith nowadays. But I certainly believe that at the very least, that's 40, 50,000 years worth of stories being passed generation to generation about what is.

going to keep a society cohesive and stop people massacring each other. And that's crucial. But now there is no forgiveness. We're screwed. And Douglas Murray again is right when he says, you know, you're going around in these circles of theology, but there's no out. So you can't get out through forgiveness. So what happens is the judgment and all of that just escalates and escalates and escalates. And it's awful.

And people are terrified of doing anything. So now, you know, you've got your, you end up with this vast hypocrisy that we all have to put up with from, you know, Prince Harry to, you know, that guy on the top of the train at Canning Town, you know, lecturing someone in his sort of weird middle class way, lecturing a bunch of people that want to get to work on an electric train and feeling justified to do it. And the, you know, your everyday person sits there and goes, I'm not going to engage with this shit. Because it's crazy. Well, as if London transport needed to be made any worse for people. And then the place to do it as well. is not Canning Town.

I mean, if you want to fight, that's a great place to do it. But you can tell the person who decided to do that had never been to Canning Town before. I probably didn't like the guy they got to volunteer for it. Are you heard for that, Giles?

Tube Station Canning Town Giles? Crispin? It'll sign you up. Drop the glue. Bless him. Yeah, I know. And you know the going in here and thought, yeah, they'll be on board.

Yeah. But, I mean, I get out of, I see on Instagram and stuff, pictures of my mates ish by going walking through the Extinction Rebellion things and I'm like dude you've just got back from Lyme Regis your second house

in your G63 AMG so you killed 50 penguins just getting here yeah but are they problematic penguins they were bad they were spirit penguins but why what do you think about that the hypocrisy element of it because people always say to you

you know well you don't like others what you see in yourself. But I don't think I am, I mean, we're all massively hypocritical, but why do we tolerate the hypocrisy? Why do we do it? Why do we just go, okay, fine. I think it's a weaponized virtue, isn't it? It's like what you

were talking about in the acting world and in the music world. If you're not seen as being compassionate to the victims of Brett Kavanaugh, then you're automatically evil. So you have to get on the right side because it's the right side. But they're not victims. They're alleged victims.

Right? Surely that's the whole point of, and having personally been through a situation where I've been accused of something, I was really grateful for the court system to examine it properly. But it's like you can't call someone a victim. It's an alleged victim. And the way that the language has just been driven in that way, you know, just even down to all the stuff the BBC say about Brexit. And it's just like, stop telling me about crashing out. You don't know what's going to happen. I don't know what's going to happen.

No one knows what's going to happen. probably not much, it won't be the end of the world. Can we move on now? But we're being weaponised. Words are being weaponised and we're being, you know, it's that thing, it's right or wrong. It's not right and left, it's right or wrong, I suppose. Or left and wrong.

Left and wrong. That's the name for the next album. That's a good name actually. Yeah, left and wrong. That's a good Edinburgh show, Tyler. I might think about it for next year. Yeah, left and wrong. I prefer to save space for the white race for you.

Everyone I've spoken to laughed at it apart from the people who looked to me and went, that sounds really bad in your accent. Anyway, but I think part of the reason is, in fact I think 98% of the reason is the fact that we always

act within our own interests and we always protect ourselves. And we think to ourselves if I stand out and if I say I disagree with this, how is this going to impact upon me? And then when you look at someone, you know, someone tweets something and then they lose commercial opportunities

especially within your industry. When I heard you wanted to do this, my first initial, well, my first thought was, is he fucking nuts? Yeah. Also, I think, you know, I think it is hypocritical to believe what I believe and not say it.

So in my own war in hypocrisy. But I was, you know, you have to. It's important. I think a lot of people think this way, which is just the desperate need for us to talk again and not to destroy you.

other. But don't most people want just to keep their head down and just have a life that is essentially as free from conflict as possible? I think that's why. So, you know, it's like, it's like when you're with your children and what do you, you've got two options, you're going to scream with them or negotiate with them. You know, obviously you want to keep, you want to keep things. But when it's impacting on your life, do you know what I mean? And you're being accused of things that you're, you know, not guilty of, for example, not that, I mean, I don't have an opinion. I'm sort of like most of people generally. I just don't have an opinion.

I didn't really particularly have an opinion on Brexit or anything like that. I was like, well, if that's what you want to do, go for it. But then my opinion, post-Brexit has become very strong. I don't know. I think it's, I don't want to, I think, yeah, people want a quiet life, but people also want an authentic life. And we're depriving people of an authentic life by depriving them of their authenticity. That's such a good point.

That's such a good point. Because I think Francis is right. You're right that most people want to. to have an easy life. They've got kids to feed and work to go to with extinction rebellion stopping them, whatever else. But people have those things. But equally, no one wants to feel that they live in a world where they are not allowed to say things that they believe that are not bad things to believe, that are reasonable views about the world. And this is kind of where I think we are now with that you say most people think this. They do. The majority of the

country here in America around the West, absolutely do not buy into this woke bullshit. It is a tyranny of a minority. It is a tyranny of the minority. Where does it come from? My feeling is it comes from the death of God. And I pray with my kids every night, for example. I just do. Because I find it easier to go with them if they've had a bad dream or something,

I find it easier to go, dear God, please, will you look after my anxious thoughts and give them back to me in the morning and whatever, just to pray it. out away from ourselves rather than go, here's a dream catcher, deal with it. You know, you're a, you know, you can, the answer for your bad dreams is within you. It's like, no, you can go, you can reach out with it more. And I think that we need that as people. We need to look, there's that great line in, um, interstellar when he says, you know, we all spend all our time looking at the ground nowadays and no one looks at the stars.

We're born to look outwards and, and believe and have some spirituality. about that. And the people that suffer a lot nowadays seem to have nothing. They're constantly being told the answers within you, the answers within you. But it isn't always, it's between us. And there's a good bit in the Bible, actually.

I sound like a total religious freak. But there's a good bit in the Bible where it says that God is there in gatherings of more than two, I think. So it's like, you know, it sits in the middle between two people rather than, you know, I'm right, you're right. There's something beyond us where we have to reach out, fill the void, fill that gap,

with, you know, where we don't understand, where we listen to others. Do you think part of it is guilt as well, that we know that we've got it good? And you know, that we're very, you know, we live very comfortable lives compared to the vast majority of people. That's quite interesting, a guilt. We had to invent something to be fucked off about. Yeah. Yeah, my brother just got back from Palestine.

and is it Palestine? I don't think it is Israel. Whoever runs that part of the world and he got off the payment I said... There's a bit of a dispute about it. And I said to him how was the chairpan?

You said, you were so lucky where we live, Loss. He said, we're so lucky where we live. And I do, I often find it interesting when you hang out with a young feminist. You do say, you know, you can always nip over to Saudi Arabia

and have a little protest there if you want to. But no, he's really, difficult because the patriarchy's too hard here that needs them. It needs smashing here first and then we'll move on to China in the Middle East afterwards. It's like a computer game. You've got to do level one first before. But it is quite interesting as well because there's quite a lot of sensible stuff to it. We don't want to invade other people's cultures with our own opinions. I think it's wrong to turn up and have Boris's opinions on whether someone should, what they should

and shouldn't wear. So I think it is good not to try and colonialise. things, but it's happened now. So what are we going to do? Are we going to shoot ourselves down for the sins of our ballbears? I don't know. What do you think? Well, this is the kind of sins of the father bullshit, really, isn't it? And the thing that

I think the reason we do the show is that both of us have an experience of life outside the comfortable, privileged west. You know, I grew up in Russia. France has spent quite a lot of time in Venezuela. Once you've seen a bit more of the world, you kind of get a sense that, number one,

this is quite an unusual thing that we have here. But the other thing about it is, well, you think that if this country hadn't done so well historically, you think the people that we beat in that competition, in that race for success, you think they would have done things differently? You think that, let's say, the Muslim world,

if it hadn't retreated back to its borders and it continued to expand through our medieval Europe, you think they wouldn't have had slaves? Yeah. You think they wouldn't have done that? I mean, it's just a fact that we were successful, Western civilization triumphed in the battle of civilizations.

Why should you feel guilty about something that people seven generations behind you did? And there is that concept of when someone does something wrong, you know, say someone attacks my brother in the street and scars his face or whatever, then, you know, it's just and right that myself and the rest of my family should be upset and angry about it. But five generations on, it's just spiteful, isn't it? If my great, great, great grandson is still really pissed off that my brother got attacked. It's just spiteful. Forgiveness is a cycle of time as well.

So this kind of sudden deliverance of all of our history in one fell swoop. You know, and you've got kids protesting, well, young students trying to take down statues and Cecil Roads and all that stuff. It's like, why is that your job to do that? Because, you know, if you're not careful, and if you're not careful, in a few generations, they'll be putting him back up and stringing you lot up. It's intolerant and it's vile, I think. And do you not think as well, activism is part of the fact

that they want to achieve these small goals because, in a sense, again, it's achievable. Whereas big things, like, for instance, a housing crisis or whatever else, for young people, there's a sense of hopelessness around it. Well, isn't there a Jewish story about the guy who goes to the rabbi and says, I want to change the world, and he goes, good luck and all that,

and he can't change the world and he says, we'll try and change the town. And then it all goes back to try and change yourself or try and at least work on yourself, definitely. But that's a personal responsibility thing. And we're not encouraged in personal responsibility. We're told now that we live in a vile, horrible, patriarchal system run by oppressive white men.

And we need to overload the whole thing in like five minutes. And I'm like, okay, this might not end well. Okay. Now, here's a question for you. So how much responsibility does Hollywood have to take? Because they are, I wouldn't even say knee deep. They are eyeball deep in this shit. Well, the irony is for most, I mean, look, this is a controversial thing to say,

but I think most male actors would understand it. It's most guys get into acting to do sex scenes with girls. Really? I think so. Is that why you wanted to be an actor? No, I love the craft, man. It's their total reason. It's definitely one of the reasons.

And, you know, Hollywood is mired in casting couch. And, you know, like in theatre, there's a whole thing about touring when you've got Landlady does, landlady's daughter does, LDDs, you know, in the bottom of guest books and stuff. The whole thing is about shacking at the end of the day. And now Hollywood has tried to go, no, it's not. Because, you know, it's been outed. But I think we're guilty. I don't know.

You watch the films Watch Walter Mitty And something like that The original Walter Mitty And all that And see how powerful and strong Those female characters are And how you get a sort of sense

Of what the culture was like And now watch a Hollywood film Of which I find it quite tricky Unless I'm dragged to watch one And none of it has any chemistry You're really lacking chemistry Because everyone's sort of stuck in a kind of No, this is as the woman in this

I'm going to be like this And as the man in this I'm going to be like this People are constantly trying to second guess themselves I think films are better when they're made by talented people who aren't trying to make a point or they're trying to make a decent political point like The Joker or something like that

which is the last film I could be bothered to watch. Did you watch it? Yeah. What do you think of it? Stunning, brilliant movie. But it's so nice, most interesting is the response to it from the Twitter going, they're anti-far or they're this or they're that and it's like, no, it's just a story And it's beautifully told and extremely dark. And they're bringing fairy tales up and giving them to adults.

You know, Michael Keaton's Batman may not age that well. I don't think it has aged that well, has it? So, you know, it's just become an adult, adult-based thing. Yeah, Hollywood's hypocritical. We all are. Oh, absolutely. I mean, it started off with all geez in Greece, didn't it? That's how it all started the theatre.

People banging each other. Yeah, my girlfriend's Greek. Yeah, she's not into that. Anyway, sadly. It's not a minute. That was a bit of a breakdown there. The pressure of it always came to me. It's just all about banging, mate.

Having said that, have you noticed a real difference in the industry between post-me-2 and pre-me-2? Was it like a sizable change? It depends on the person. When I do sex scenes or anything with somebody, I'm just out of pure natural, like, politeness, I go, what are you cool with this? So you know, what is there anything you don't want to do?

And we talk it through because it's also a deeply unsexy thing to do, a sex scene, weirdly. But now you get an intimacy coordinator at work. What's that? If you have to do a sex scene, you get an intimacy coordinator. What do they do? They coordinate your intimacy. How do they do that? They talk you through it.

I mean, I haven't had one yet. There's someone who can teach you four years. Do you work privately? Yeah. You've got to rub here for three minutes. It's very serious, but again, that's a tricky thing, isn't it? You know, intimacy is a tricky thing. How do you get qualified to be an...

I'd love it if it was a Russian. You must rub for three minutes here. It's a five-week course, but you can find out. In two weeks, I'm qualifying as we're going to speak. Yes, lovely. I'd be a terrible intimacy, Gordon, yeah. So that is... And that, I presume, is done legally,

so that if there is any pushback on the studio, they go, hang on, we hired this particular person and then everything was Everything went fine But also where does the Where does the Where's the barrier between I mean obviously

Like I'm saying It was very easy for me to work with a woman Or in some cases a man And do intimacy stuff Because I'm like You're all right with them No okay you know And you chat it through

And then it's not a shock But if you've got I don't know You kind of also you want a bit of a free song Even if it's pretend Because otherwise you'll just spot it It'll look very mechanical We don't know

That's the problem. I think we just don't know how there's obviously a problem between men and women and how we are engaging. I don't happen to think it's all men. I think it's probably a small minority of men like most things. There's a small minority of a very nasty women who do their bit. But we're allowing the minority to dominate the general conversation by trying to obliterate everything and normalize everything and turn everything into one note so that we're all the same. It's a quality of outcome, isn't it? That's what they're after.

Well, in interest of balance, I think it probably is important to say that people like Harvey Weinstein, what they're alleged to have done, is horrific. Yeah. And none of us would condone that. And I think it's fair to say that has been a problem in that environment where you have these massive power disparities and lots of people want to be actors,

just like lots of people want to be comedians. And if there is beautiful women and powerful men and the power disparity, that will often result in that kind of... Yeah. But again, as you say, it's a minority. You also, you know, I know somebody who's been in that situation, and they knew exactly what was happening really quickly,

and they got out of it, you know. So it's horrific, and it's totally wrong, and I hope anyone who does that, the full weight of the law comes down right on top of them. But again, there are people that aren't doing that, that are, you know, that there is a chemistry between people. You know, you do, you have chemistry between people all the time. And we're trying to obliterate that.

And I think it's bad, and I'll obviously be shot down for saying that because it just makes sense. Mate, the more you get shot down in this interview, the better it is, well. I don't care. I'm bored. You know, it's difficult. But one thing that always, again, why does it surprise me? It's Hollywood.

But just the sheer hypocrisy of going back to the Weinstein situation where you have all these people coming out and going, what he did was discussing and awful. And of course it is, and it was. But then you saw the pictures of them in the award ceremonies big plastered grins on their faces arms around them and you're like you're telling me you didn't know

two years ago but now you've suddenly and God forbid are there people that have condemned people like that and quietly got where they wanted to get you know do those people exist that have have you know kept themselves quite quiet and climb the ladder that way I'm certain there are

you know in the same way it is the invisibility. No, it's the kind of impunity people have to their own ridiculousness. But showbiz is particularly bad that way, you know. But all forms of elitism is bad that way. You know, it's some ridiculous watching Harry have a little sob about his, you know, only having to have two kids

and how awful it is. And you start thinking, hang on a minute, this is about people going on holiday on EasyJet, isn't it? That's what it's about. so that they're ruining your view from your nice hotel that you can afford. That's what it is. It's not so much that you want to save the climate.

It's that you don't want other people to be able to have what you can have. And that's what bothers me. And I think it's the same with, with, you know, Hollywood people saying, it's appalling, it's appalling, it's appalling. Of course I was his friend, but I didn't know then.

You know, it's like, yeah, really, did any of you know? I'm reading a book, which I mentioned to you, about a guy who used to be on the far right and is now fighting the far right. And one of the things he talks about is that he believes one of the radicalizing elements

that is really driving people into the far, young men into the far right, is a sense that men are under attack in society. And you've alluded to elements of that. Is that something that resonates with you? I mean, I watch Hollywood movies or even adverts. And it's just relentless from what I can see. Well, it's this idea that masculinity

is bad and in some way toxic and it's like no it's a it's not about gender the toxicity and bad behavior has got nothing to do with gender so why we suddenly do it but why attack men you know especially men that died in you know the sort of gender death gap in war is pretty terrific isn't it you know and men have a have a place and the problem is also like anything if you if you stop men being men what'll happen is it'll just go underground and then when men come back they will come back waving their Nazi banners and their Charlottesville madness. You know, I think it's, I celebrate in my own kids, much to the chagrin of almost everybody. You know, your boys is good.

You know, if you want to win, win. And I don't know why we want to attack it. I think because we don't fit into the system properly. If you've got competitive men, if you've got men that want to protect women, for example. You know, you take that away. But I noticed my Instagram threw up a Gillette advert recently. They've changed, don't you? Well, it only took about $8 billion in losses

and they suddenly, they're back on men's side, apparently. But a good combination between a man and a woman or a man to man or whatever it is, you know, that we have nowadays. But a good relationship is an empowering relationship where you empower the other person. You draw out their skills. You know, if there's a fire in my mum and dad's house, I would go to my mum. You know, there are roles. People have roles.

Not to say they're better or worse than anything. But yeah, we're trying to squash boys. I think they're squash boys in schools, don't they? And, you know, suicide is pretty dreadful within men. I know a lot of men that are really suffering. And then I saw Julia Watson from Veep, who I really respect the other day, talking about men having so much more rights than women.

And are we talking about imaginary rights in your head or are we talking about actual rights? Because you have to tell me what those are. Because there's a lot of young people that support you and basically you're teaching him to be victims. And why would you do that? That point you made is really important where it's not about the facts. It's about the narrative.

And we have to adhere to the narrative. Because if we stray away from the narrative, we become problematic. You're a men's right activist, dearly. Menonist. I accidentally wore a menonist jumper to a thing once. And they were like, are you a menonist? And I'm like, no, my friend gave it to me because he thinks I'm a twat. I don't know why we do it.

Why do we do it? What's the point? Why do we need to shut men up? especially what is perceived. It's very clever, really, to turn around because if you make it about race and gender, you're automatically on the back foot, just by the color of your skin

and what you've got between your legs. You're already apologising, which is a really bad place to be. Why would you want to do that? It doesn't happen in my hand. Well, the other thing with men as well is if you want men to be better, you need to give them positive role models

instead of criticizing them and making them look like idiots, which is what all that. advertising does, which is what a lot of these movies do. Jolette, you brought up Jolet. They didn't go, he has a positive way for a man to be. They just went, men do this, men do that, men do that, men are bad. And then you get a girl. I've had this.

I've had a big falling out with a girl who said, do you need to be told this stuff? And I'm like, what do I tell you to do? Like, do we sit down and I tell you what to do? No, it's not your job to tell me what. I'm not him. You're stereotyping men. But it's amazing because someone would have sat down in a meeting and gone, this is my idea and it's really good

and they would have gone brilliant, great and then they would have shot the video and everyone's like, brilliant, it's wonderful and aren't we progressive? And then they would have got their profit reports and gone, you told us this was going to work? And then it's like back to guys with their tops off with slightly nice bodies

shaving in the sea. It's what I was raised on. Yeah, yeah, it gave us something to respite it. But the thing is about the Gillette advert that I found very funny is that it talked about toxic masculinity and it showed bullying. And I was a teacher for 11 years.

And my girlfriend went to an all-girls school. And I remember showing my girlfriend, the advert. She was just like, what we did at girls' school is three billion times worse than that. Because what we did was we went, we didn't beat someone up. We destroyed them from the inside in. I bet.

Yeah, just like dry rot and dragging them down. I'm like, okay. I like your girlfriend. I like your girlfriend. You were a product of being bullied. Yeah. That's what you're made. You're made by your...

experiences. You know, I'm sure I bullied people in my life. I certainly was bullied at school, but, you know, it was you're a product of that. Without the experiences, what do you want to do? Just march everybody gently through life and tell them that there's no problems. I think maybe that's half the reason why everyone gets upset about hate speech because no one's actually shouted at them

and told them off. Do you know what I mean? It's all right. My dad was pretty hard with us, but I get on my house on fire with him now. But he's still my dad. My sons go to me, who's scarier? You are? Jimbo, who's my dad, and I go Jimbo. And then I'm still like that. He's 80, and I'm still like, you know,

there's no harm in that to me. No, absolutely not. I don't want my kids throwing food across the table at each other. It's like, no one's going to invite you to dinner. Behave, sit up properly and eat well. It's like, oh, Nazi. Sorry, it's just what I was raised with, and it feels correct. But boys need discipline.

I mean, I think everybody needs discipline. But boys in particular, because of testosterone and all the rest of it, we're just different. So what do you try to do as a father of two boys to kind of counteract some of these things? I mean,

patience mainly, but I've drawn some pretty strong red lines. But then I did try, oh God, I'm going to confess that. Around Poland, mainly. Strong lines around the state land. My son was getting,

one of my sons was getting bullied at school. And I said, smack came back. Yeah. And I said, he said wow and I went through this really careful thing I was like just don't

never hit someone first only hit him on the arm but just smack him back genius I thought best bit of dadding in the world a call from school next day dead two birds before just after reception I'm like okay we need to re-look at this but I think that it's a sense of

men are quite powerful isn't there there's an imposing thing of violence between men often isn't there you know and we square up to each other, especially when we're younger. I mean, I don't do it now. But it's great also that violence has become intolerable. We're very intolerant of violence, which is a great thing. So if you've got one of your mates who's a bit bruisey on a Saturday night out, he's now less likely to start throwing punches. But you do have to moderate that testosterone. Even, you know, even in young kids, I mean, I try to make myself the enemy to my kids. So

when they're getting bruises, I make me the enemy, me the problem, not each other. So if they're coming up against something they'll be coming up against me. And they know pretty clearly where my red lines are, which are, you know, behave. Because I like it when they go to other people's houses. And they're nice. And I go around and I'll see some friends and I go, God, your kids are doing so well, isn't it brilliant?

You know, and if they turn up and they're lying down at the table throwing food at each other, I get a bit pissed off for them, to be fair. And I don't think there's anything wrong with it. It's not child abuse though, is it, at the end of the day? And do you sometimes feel there's a conflict between what they're being spoon fed at school and what you're teaching them? It's almost like you have to take out the roots before they're really set in. It depends on the school, doesn't it? You know, you get some schools that have, I think Manas is a really, really good place to start.

And also, you know, if you're looking for equality of, you're looking for your kids to have the best chance in life, the best thing you can teach your kid is that however clever or stupid or brilliant or terrible they are at something, The one thing that they can be in charge of is how they treat people. And I have only got jobs up until this when I'm never going to work again. From being myself and being charming and listening and caring what other people think genuinely. And that's taught. You don't accidentally become well-mannered. You're taught it by somebody.

And in my case, I was taught it by my dad and my mum. And their methods nowadays would probably be seen as, you know, too hard. But it worked on me. I haven't decked someone in years. Sorry. And where do you stand on? Because it seems that we talk about men's mental health more than ever. And a lot of this, I think, is positive.

My father had depression, anxiety, all the rest of it. But I think how much of constantly focusing on this sort of, you know, the intersectional systems being woke, constantly checking yourself, If I say this thing, is this problematic? If I say this thing, I've just said word black in the sentence. Should I say the word without colour? Well, it's dreadful, isn't it? Also, because social media kills it.

A friend of mine, very early on, when I got onto Twitter, before I started really annoying people, which I do on a daily basis, said to me, just don't tweet anything that you wouldn't have on an advertising hoarding opposite your mum's house. And I thought, that's a good rule. But yes, being very aware of what we're doing all the time is awful. for, but also, come on, man, we're, everyone who's quite depressed. Like, I'm sorry, I've not met a single person that isn't depressed.

Scratch a couple of little bits into a conversation and no one's going to tell you, you know what, I'm just fucking thrilled. I don't meet many people like that. I meet people with a lot of problems, don't you? What's your experience? I mean, I've got some friends who are genuinely quite happy. But I think most people are suffering in a lot, you know, or like Jordan Pison says, you know, two levels removed from some quite serious suffering.

But that's something that we can use to bring ourselves together. Instead of like going, well, my sort of depression is this sort of depression. And your sort of depression is that sort of depression. It's like, no, it's the human condition. It's quite depressing. We don't have an answer to it. Dividing each other is going to cause mayhem. And, you know, there's a fight coming at the end of the day if we carry on doing it, I sense.

I think on the depression thing I've probably never been happier than since we started doing the show because I feel like I have a sense of purpose with what I'm doing and that is incredibly important I think particularly for men particularly for men

so I think if you feel like I think there's a lot that can be done we had Dr. Linda Papadopoulos on the show a while back and we were talking to her about mental health quite a bit and I feel like we sometimes forget that the impact of our actions on our mental health is huge.

If you eat right, exercise, do something you love, how surround yourself with people that you like, that you get on with, that understand you and you understand. And you can have interesting, empowering conversations with those people, that will have a huge impact on your mental health. And they want the best for you. People that want the best for you,

but that also comes as you get older as well. And meaning is also, I think meaning is quite important. This other thing that we're all talking about, life doesn't mean anything. Because that's the byproduct of all the intersectional postmodern thinking is just why do anything? If it's all a massive social construct and it's all it's all bullocks, why do anything at all? And meaning is, meaning you need to be slightly, you need to have these little things like competitiveness and stuff like that because that means something you want to get somewhere. I want to get somewhere like, you know, with music, for me, for example, like, you know, if I'd stopped every time someone said, stop it you posh twat

go back to acting we already pay you to act I would have stopped but I don't I go no no I have I'm this gives me meaning this is what I like and I'm proud of this and it makes me feel good because I'm expressing myself in a song rather than in two box of Jack Daniels and some meaningless fight down wherever you know so it's it is important we're getting rid

of meaning we're saying nothing means anything yeah it does it really does And it's also as well it's saying to men that in a way it's going back to religion thing. Being a man, being a straight white male means that you have original sin. I did it. Did we do it? Or didn't she do it?

Eve. Eve did it. She ate the apple first. Yeah. So I'd like to say hers. For a moment that I was wondering who you're talking about. Which better research haven't I done? It turns out it was the Bible. Eve did it. But there's a story that they, I mean, what's that?

about as well because if I was a woman I'd be pretty miffed that that was what was being taught the kids the near the woman tempted the man it's mad isn't it I don't know it's confusing me on a daily basis the meaning of finding your way through it getting out the other side well I think you're right about meaning it's if you don't have something meaningful in your life then it's going to be very difficult to feel happy about it it's and your what your meaning is going to be defined by imposing your power over somebody else and your power is defined in the levels of righteousness that you have over other people, which is what virtue signaling is at the end of the day,

which is why you can't see any of your own hypocrisy. So you don't understand. I need to take the private jet in order to go there so I can learn more about how to lecture you about having lived. That's my meaning. Whereas, you know, my meaning is, I know everyone thinks actors are loaded, but my meaning is don't be a dicker to your kids as often, you know, try and be as good to your kids as possible, teach them as well as you can,

what you learn from your own dad and mom, and if you can take them on a nice holiday once a year, twice a year, and then they just, they want to get rid of the holiday. It's like, no, I need to go and fight the German for the place by the pool.

I need to do that. That's what gives you meaning. That's my fucking meaning. What's your reenactment with towels. I know. Brexit means Brexit. Brexit. That hasn't helped.

That really doesn't sound very good in your voice, make it. Sounds authentic, though, doesn't it? It does. It does. It does. It sounds different. But actually, I think meaning is exactly where social justice comes in, because we talked about it being a religion. And, you know, you and I were talking before we started the interview, human beings, whatever you say, seem to have this void inside of ourselves that can only be filled by devoting yourself to something that is greater than you.

And as you say, the moment you take religion out of it, something else is going to come and fill that. Well, the human. So at least God is a, at least God is something that you can relate to directly yourself that's outside of you. Whereas if there is no God and your God, it's dangerous. I mean, we just history is littered with people that have done that and it really doesn't turn out well. So, you know, given the choice and given the option, I will pray with my kids at night and I will believe beyond myself because it stops me thinking, you know what, I kind of want to be. to cut your head off. What I'm grateful for for the listeners is that Lawrence looked at France, that's what you said. Well, you're not going to do it to a Russian, aren't you?

Because the boys are going to come around. He's going to help. Yeah, he's going to slip to the tea in beforehand, make me sleeping. But where do we move from here, Lawrence? Have we reached peak wank in the words of Rod Little, or is there still plenty more wank to go? I'm slightly concerned that it feels like, it feels like there's a fight coming.

that's what I worry about that it feels like people are I think there's people jumping on top of each other and their speech and all of that is already slightly picking for a fight I think there's a massive disparity in wealth which is really bad so the combination of people living in

some pretty horrific experiences and being demonised at the same time you know what happens when you've when you've shat on your parent culture for that long will people turn around and say say I've had enough? I don't know.

What will happen? I think there's going to be, you know, these two things can't coexist as they are. So why do we all talk like this and, you know, I will be savaged by whatever people want to savage me? But I mean it. It's in the spirit of conversation. I'm not at no point am I saying, I'm right. I'm just saying we need to talk.

Or, you know, this very censorious authoritarian woke system that's growing and growing and growing and growing in is, and now is, you know, unacceptable if you don't hold that belief, especially in a lot of jobs nowadays. You know, you're getting implicit bias training and stuff like that, forced on people now. You might find that when the shoe is on the other foot, that that foot comes kicking. That's what I sense. I mean, it just seems logical to me. Well, it's that eternal thing is you either leave, talk, or fight.

Yeah. It's one of those. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. And most people aren't going to leave. if you can't talk, I think it was John F. Kennedy who said that those who make a peaceful revolution

impossible will make a violent one inevitable. There you go. That's so true. And that's why we do the show because... We want a revolution. Well, I think to some extent we want to create a space for people to talk so that no revolution is necessary

so that things can be resolved by... I mean, Francis mentioned the housing crisis. It's a huge issue. It's a huge issue. And there is no political will. to resolve it at all. Yeah, but it was pronouns day yesterday.

So, seriously. It was pronouns day yesterday. Is there a national housing crisis year? Yeah. No. You know, these actual issues, real issues. I mean, as I was saying to you earlier, my best mate is a prison officer

when he went to drama school together. And he really is, you know, he suffers. He doesn't have any money. And he doesn't have a house. You know, he's screwed. I'm trying to buy a house at the moment. I've been lucky in the years.

But I even, I'm going. what? So, you know, this identity politics thing has replaced class, the actual real issue, which is what you do with the working class and the massive divide between rich and poor. That's just out the window now. They, then, he, her, she's it, it, Z, Z, er. It's just so much easier, isn't it? It's like parking tickets and burglaries.

My house was robbed, and I, twice in four days, and I bought CCTV after the first one. And I got the guys, faces, and then. with my children's iPads as they scooted out the door. But there was no case because there wasn't enough evidence for the Crown Prosecution Service. But every single time I go in a yellow box in the car, I get fined. It's a crime solved, isn't it?

Yeah. So it's just going, what's the easiest crime to solve? So much easier to go, social justice. Everyone, let's do social justice. But, you know, let's leave the, you know, let's have more food banks and more people living shitty lives. But as long as they get their pronouns right, we'll be fine. It's dodged, isn't it?

It's going to lead to something not fun. I think you're right. Talking about the real issues is the only way forward here. Well, there's another way forward which we really don't want to be. But you guys do that, which is what's so good. And also, you know, I think it's, if you're going to put yourself on the line to be shat on everybody else who has any sort of vague platform for anything that people are interested in should also put themselves on the line to be shut on.

You know, so anyone who has a vague interest in me can now know that I am. also a Nazi. Well, welcome to the Third Reich. Before we let you go, our last question, as you know, always is, what's the one thing that no one is talking about that we ought to be talking about? I think it's men in the family court system.

I think men are having a very, very tough time if they don't have money and they can't buy very good representation. I think, you know, there's a lot of suicide around it and it's a yeah it's a it's a it's a it's a it's a it's a it's a system the family court system because it's private and it's you it's a totally anonymous so you can say whatever you want and um I think men within the within the family court system and the way that we're supported and the fact that

we need to look at family breakups as a 50 50 thing where we start together at 50 50 in the best interest of the children I'd say that's for me the important one because people don't talk about it. They don't. If you enjoyed our conversation, check out Lawrence's album. It's out now. We'll play your clip,

the full clip of his single immediately after this. Follow him on Twitter and we'll put the links in below. And as always, follow us. We'll see you in a week's time. Another brilliant episode. Take care, guys.

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