TRIGGERnometry - LIVE Episode with Destiny: Progressivism, Trans and Trump

Episode Date: December 8, 2022

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It's time to throw out. all your old hygiene habits and upgrade your life. Hey Francis, if you were a member of the public, would you like the opportunity to ask incredible guests like Bill Burr, Jordan Peterson, Sam Harris, Adam Carolla, Brett Weinstein, John Barnes, Douglas Murray, Nigel Farage and Lionel Shriver, your own questions? You bet I would. And what do you think the best way to do that would be?

Uh, probably stalking, mate. You'd have to corner them in the supermarket. Probably run near like the sort of frozen food aisles and then just bark questions at them before they can escape. Not the American ones, as they have guns. And you'd have to be extra careful with the females as that's how I got in trouble last time.

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enjoy it so much, they prefer it over the show. They prefer Locals to Trigonometry. If I have to get them executed, I'm the one that goes to jail. Right, go to Trigonometry. Dot Locals.com. Only $7 a month for all that incredible content. Trigonometry. Dotlocals.com. See you there, guys. Hello and welcome to a live episode of Trigonometry. I'm Francis Foster. I'm Constantine Kitten. And this is a show for you if you want honest conversations with fascinating people. Our brilliant guest today is a progressive YouTuber. It goes by the name of destiny.

Please welcome him to the show. And while we do that, Stephen is going to join us in a second. Hey, man, good to see you. Hey, what's that? How's it going? It's great. You've come with the progressive hair, so you're fully on brand. Good to have you.

I try my best. Yeah, I just died it this weekend, just for you guys. Yeah, thank you very much. It's very generous of you. Before we get into the conversation, I just remind everybody, if you want to send in the super chat or a PayPal with your questions for Destiny, we'll read them out in about 45, 50 minutes. So get those in as we're talking. If there's something you agree with, disagree with something you want us to put to him, something you want to challenge us or him on, get all of that in. But Destiny's good to have you on, man. A lot of our audience have been recommending you, and they've always said,

you guys say you are sort of somewhere in the middle, but you often talk to people who lean right or people who've made the journey from left to right. And this is a guy who's very principled. He believes in free speech, and he's firmly in the progressive camp. So tell us your story. What's been your journey through life that leads you to be sitting here talking to us?

Real quick, before I do that, a lot of people say my mic is really blown out right now. It's fairly loud, it is, yeah. Is that on my end? I just assume we're going to bring it down on our end a little bit. Okay, gotcha, got you. You're good. I think you're good now.

Yeah. For anybody who was wondering if it was actually live, it really is. And I just assumed you really wanted to make an impression. Yeah, I gotcha. Okay. Tell us your story. Who are you? Yeah, so basically the long and short of it is I started streaming video games in 2010.

And in 2016, I started to get more involved politically with the whole Trump stuff. And everybody, I guess, felt like they needed to get involved politically. So I kind of jumped on that bandwagon. I've always been from 2016 onwards, like pretty far left, center left, in terms of how I've kind of argued with people. I had a reputation for being kind of a hardcore political debater, and then I've kind of softened to that approach. And nowadays, I guess my goal is to just kind of like show that people on the left and right

can have good conversations while still being challenging and critical of one another. That last part is usually missed from people that claim they want to have good conversations between the left and right. They usually lose the critical aspect of it. But, yeah. Yeah, well, that's a good point. I heard your conversation with our friend Peter Bogosian about this very issue, is like how do you have healthy conversations,

evil, not evil, even if you might disagree about stuff. So I look forward to all of that with you. And one of the things Francis mentioned to me earlier is that you are someone, I don't know how often this happens, but you've gone from being more conservative to being more left wing over the course of your life. So tell us about that. I mean, I grew up in a Republican household. My parents were huge Bush fans, so I kind of grew up in that whole era of, you know, loving Bush. and loving the Iraq war, loving the whole kind of neocon establishment. And then as I got older and as I started to earn more money, I kind of started to see how different the world was

from a very wealthy perspective versus a not-so-wealthy perspective. And I kind of noticed that a lot of stuff feels a little unfair and that kind of moved my perspective a bit more to the left. That's really interesting because normally when you, because part of it was when you had your son, wasn't it, destiny? That was a real kind of. Yeah, the lens through which I view his life is pretty insane. There's so many unearned advantages that he has just because I'm wealthy that, like, yeah, other children don't have available to them.

And when I kind of see stuff like that, it makes me, yeah, it makes me look at the world a little differently. That's so curious to me because I had a son six months ago. And I'm not going to lie, I want the absolute fucking best for him that I can possibly provide. And if I can get some more unearned privilege in his bank, in his locker, I would love to do more of that. Yeah, I mean, I'd feel the same way, yeah. So you would like him to accumulate as much on unprovledge as possible. Yeah, of course. I mean, that's like our goal, right? Like, I bought a house in the best school district.

I make sure that he's provided for as well as possible. Like, yeah, I mean, we want to provide our children the most they can get. It just makes me look at the world a little bit differently when I could see how different his life might be versus the life of another child when the two haven't really done anything different to earn or not earn, you know, different lifestyles. And what does a progressive say should happen about that then? I guess like the standard progressive lines are usually some greater form of wealth allocation to, I don't know, like underprivileged schools or making sure children have, I guess, food, you know, like free lunches or free meals during class. Whatever, I guess whatever parts you can allocate money towards to kind of like help underprivileged children, you know, at least have the same economic or socioeconomic opportunities as more wealthier children.

That's really interesting. So it's a free school meals aspect. And bear in mind, I'm a former teacher destiny. Everybody have a drink. He says that every fucking episode. So I've seen that. So it's free school meals. What else is it?

As the crispy chicken sandwich from 7-Eleven, people always call me loud. And I'm like, yeah, I know. I'm crispy. Did you expect me to whisper? If you want quiet, go eat some soup and reflect. Like, I know I'm a handful. I'm bold, I'm juicy.

throw some pickles and barbecue sauce on me and baby I'm a whole meal and with seven rewards I'm just $4. Quiet, no. Krispy, saucy and $4? Very. Only at 711. Valley 36-22326 participating stores only while supplies

lastly app for full terms. Well, just around children or for the entirety of society or... Well, not just around children, but around society as a whole. Are you asking me for like, what is my go-to policy list? or like what is the general progressive overview? I think he's asking in the context of

un-earned privilege and particularly education, what are the things that you think are important? I guess, so when I think of education, in my mind, education is supposed to be the great equalizer. If you go to school, if you show up and if you put in your hardest work you can every day, there should be like a good reward waiting for you at the end. So making sure that like every schools or all schools have the same opportunities available to their children who are there to take advantage of the opportunities, I think is a good start. So, like, one thing that I thought was interesting was over the pandemic in the United States, in my child's school, every single kid was issued like an iPad and a laptop.

And for a lot of children living in the United States, not only did they not have that, a lot of these kids don't even have internet access to their homes. So that would be, like, one example of a difference between, like, a wealthy school district and a not-so-wealthy school district. Other differences might be, like, in wealthier schools, you've got, like, this plethora of after-school programs available, these different clubs and groups that you can take part in. if you're like a band student, they might issue you an instrument instead of you having to buy a rent one. It might be the types of textbooks available to you.

It might be providing graphing calculators to kids. I don't know, there's all these different things that schools can do to kind of like put children on a better footing to succeed in school and then in life. And it would also, I imagine, be greater investment in schools to have lower class, smaller class sizes, etc., etc. Yeah, I mean, I guess if you can afford it smaller class sizes and everything, starts to get really expensive. But yeah, it's also not just a money thing, too. It's figuring out how we have to be critical over education system because there are some school districts that throw a lot of money to their kids and they don't really get great results. So it's not just a matter of throwing money into schools as well. It's a matter of figuring out like which programs are

beneficial, what works really well, what doesn't work well in the going from there. So I think, I want to say the two most evidence-backed things I've heard of are, and these kind of seem like no-brainers. One is food. Having free meals available for children seems like a no-brainer. It It prepares you for the day. It puts you in a better position to learn. So having free meals available for children that might not be eating well at home is a really good thing. And then two, surprisingly, another thing I saw was air conditioning. Some schools don't have air conditioning available and not having air conditioning in the school that's really hot, like over, oh God, what is it like, is it 28?

Hold on. I'm trying to bonger this for you. Yeah. Like, there'll be schools in the United States that are over like 27, 28 degrees inside and you have and you've got no air conditioning for these kids. and the ability for you to like focus and, you know, pay attention to class or work on homework is severely diminished in those, um, in those,

uh, environments, yeah. Yeah. And you, you mentioned, uh, food.

I, and obviously, uh, children need to eat. Why is it that they don't have food? Why don't they have food? Well, I mean,

it's, I don't know. It's a really good question. Well, isn't that really the core question here, uh, when it comes to this issue? Because,

it seems to me that often the progressive solution is to go, well, this thing is lacking, therefore we must provide it, whereas I often think that some, I often think that the solution often lies in finding out, why is the thing lacking in the first place? And there you start to get into real difficulty because it's issues like family breakdown, it's all sorts of other things that are going on that are causing that to happen in the first place. And yes, you can give that child food and you maybe should, but you're not looking at the deeper problem. And it's never getting sold. Yeah, but I find that that, I feel like that's, I feel, usually when people bring these points

up, I'm not saying you're doing this, but oftentimes it feels a little pro-clutchy to where it's like, here is a problem, I know what exists. Some children don't have food in school, so provide food because we know that that boost educational outcomes. And then some people like, well, hold on, well, what causes that problem? Well, I don't know. I mean, there could be a number of things that caused that problem, but I don't know if I would let there being a deeper problem stop me from, at least alleviating that symptom. Oh, sure. I'm not, I'm not arguing on that point. And what I'm saying is, isn't there something else going on that is a sign of something bigger that we should actually be focusing on? I mean, to me, family breakdown is a much bigger issue that no one wants to talk about.

No one is focusing on dealing with. Everyone just accepts that this has happened over the last 60 odd years rapidly, where you've gone from like 25% of children being born to in a single parent or living in a single parent household to like 75 for some communities or 50 or 40. depending on which group you're in. That, to me, is a massive problem. Why do we never talk about that when we're talking with progressive people? I feel like we talk about that all the time. I feel like I hear about this constantly.

Maybe it's just some media circles. Yeah, of course, yeah. Where people talk about children being born out of wedlock, people talk about tangentially. I hear the right talking about it. I never hear progressive talk about it. Well, I mean, I hear a lot of right leading media of the United States. I guess when I hear the right talk about it,

I never hear the right talk about solutions to any of these problems either, though. What is the right-leaning perspective of how to alleviate these things? Or rather, why is there a family breakdown? Well, that is very, very complicated. And we've had a number of guests on the show to talk about it. I mean, Louise Perry would say the sexual revolution creates that process because you change the dynamics between men and women using contraception. There's, you know, Thomas Sol would say, and he's obviously on the right,

it's the welfare state creates incentives for people not to live together. and for women essentially to be paid by the government to have children. There's all sorts of explanations for it. And that means that there's, you know, you're right. I think the right offers few solutions other than like let's encourage marriage. But isn't it important for both sides to at least ask the question, then we might actually come up with some solutions? Yeah, I think that asking the questions are fine.

But yeah, I'm not going to wait for the reversal of the sexual revolution and the welfare state to feed kids in school, I guess. That wasn't what I was saying. I think you know. Oh, sure. No, yeah, I know. Like, yeah, I mean, there's always deeper, there's always deeper things to analyze. But I find that for deeper problems, it always feels like people are just trying to smuggle in whatever they care about the most.

So if you ask like the breakdown of the family, like a feminist might tell you that it's because men don't respect women enough and they're not being patient enough to wait for children to be born at the appropriate time. Or if you ask a conservative or a Christian, they'll say the breakdown of the family has happened because of, because of a lack of social values and because of the, you know, the sexual revolution and too many. people are having casual sex or if you, like, it feels like anytime you ask people these really complicated questions is just an invitation basically for them to rant for, you know, two hours about whatever their particular pet issue is for all of life that explains everything. Now, again, not to say that you guys do that, but I mean, I agree that these are definitely deeper problems that need to be looked at, but I don't think we're undoing like the sexual revolution anytime soon.

No, I don't. Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, I mean, if you want to talk about any of the deeper things, we can go into any of those if you want, for sure. I mean, they're all interesting topics. I don't buy the welfare state one, for instance. I don't believe that any mother's ever made the choice to have a child out of wedlock to get more welfare. We can talk about any of the underlying issues if you want, but, yeah. Well, I mean, I actually don't believe it either personally because it happens cross-culturally across different nations. So I don't buy that argument, even though I think a lot of

what Thomas Soule is written is very insightful. Anyway, Francis, I know you've got questions. No, and so the thing that I find very interesting, Destiny, is the journey, from right to left. Do you think the left is better at providing solutions than the right? Is that the reason why you moved over? No, I don't think anybody's that great at providing solutions. I would say the left is marginally better because at least most of their stuff is rooted more in reality than the right is, at least in the United States.

When people on the right don't think climate change is real, I think some of them don't believe in evolution, might think the world is 6,000 years old, don't believe vaccines work, Don't believe in, like, climate change. Yeah, it's hard. It's hard to begin a conversation with, well, how do we fix this problem? When a lot of those people are completely just descriptively, factually, like, off reality. People on the left, though, obviously, they do their virtue signaling as well. They say dumb shit sometimes or a lot of times.

My personal philosophy doesn't really revolve around, like, which side is making the better prescriptions. It's more just like, where do I align at philosophically in terms of how do I believe, I guess, like, the country should be ran. I mean, look, and I'm going to push back a little bit on that. And just so you know, I regard myself as being on the left, former primary school teacher and secondary school in deprived schools for 12 years, etc, etc., economically very much on the left. But surely Destiny, when you were saying, like, don't believe in vaccines, believe in evolution, what you're doing is you're pinpointing a certain part of the right, the religious right. There are lots of people who are very pro-vaccine on the right. There are a lot of people. who are atheists on the right. You were just pointing to a certain part. In a way, which some people do on the right when they go, oh, nobody on the left believes that there's two sexes. Now, hang on a minute, mate. I think there's two sexes. Do you get what I'm saying, Destiny? Yeah, I mean, 48% of Republicans in the United States don't believe in evolution. I can look up other numbers if you want for like vaccines. I think 68% of Republicans don't believe

the last election was real. I don't buy this is. What do you mean they don't believe it was real? they believe it was stolen? Yeah, they believe it was stolen. Yeah, the election was completely rigged. Like the polls were actually, or not the polls, the actual votes were tabulated differently or ballots were hit or whatever. There is a radical wing to the left in the United States, but that radical wing is a fringe, it's small, it's found in colleges. It's almost non-existent legislatively, and it's found on Twitter. But on the Republican side, on the conservative side, the radical wing is right now the majority of the party. It's significantly different. So I'm willing to acknowledge that there's radicals on the left and right.

the differences on the right, they've become almost the majority of the Republican Party in some ways. And I wouldn't agree with that idea that like, oh, like, not believing in these things and being hyper-religious, like, that's just a few conservatives. That's not true in the United States. The evangelical voting base in the United States is one of the most, is the most important voting base of the right. I think a large number of Republicans believe in some pretty surprising things revolving around these topics.

But again, we can get into any of those specific. Yeah. Well, I mean, you know, for us, too, growing up and our heroes of people like Bill Hicks and George Carlin, who were always mocking those very people, the religious. just right in the United States, who were at that time saying, don't say this, you can't say this, you don't blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I mean, I would quibble somewhat with the idea that the far left has little influence. I mean, I seem to remember them burning down quite a lot of stuff in the middle of 2020.

But in terms of what I'm curious about, you are someone who's been very strongly and supportive of the idea of free speech. And that certainly has, as a value, has been eroded in recent years on the left. it seems to me, at least, as an observer. Would you agree with that? I don't think anybody really cares about free speech. The left has definitely attacked it as much as they can across social media institutions, or the institution of social media, I guess, or internet stuff.

But the right wants to legislate a lot of freedom of speech out of existence, which is really scary to me. And it seems like those ideas enjoy broad support among Republicans. Like legislates free speech, how do you mean? So for instance, Donald Trump said that he was in favor of revoking citizenship for Americans that burned the American flag, which is one of our most important rights to freedom of speech. He didn't get very much blowback at all from Republicans for that. Republican has, I'm sorry, Trump has spoken repeatedly about how he wishes to open libel laws to make it so it's easier for people in office, him especially to sue media. He said repeatedly that media is the enemy of the people.

These are some of the most worrying statements that a head of state can ever make if freedom of speech is a private. concern of yours. But that's Donald Trump. I mean, I really, I find him quite obnoxious and never was particularly supportive of him. That's fine, but the majority of Republicans in the United States support Donald Trump. And he just called for, like, suspending the Constitution a few days ago. So I don't really believe Republicans are conservatives when they say they're worried about freedom of speech.

I think that when they say that, what they really mean is they don't like that they got banned on Twitter. Okay, fine. I am not a Republican in America. I'm not on the right. I am worried about freedom of speech. And one of the reasons we started this channel is we saw in our industry, which has always been very progressive, the comedy industry, comedians increasingly restricted, punished, canceled, chased out, not given opportunities that the other words have been given for doing offensive jokes and or having the quote-unquote wrong opinions. So I think to suggest that people are, no one cares about free speech because Donald Trump doesn't care about free speech, again, you're grouping extremists in with lots of other people.

Well, the problem is that the extremist wing of the conservative party in the United States is the majority. That's the problem. Extremists in the United States on the left are a minority of the party, right? Not many Democrats consider themselves communists or socialist. That's like kids at school where, like, you're radical, far, very slow, slim minority people, your AOCs, right? But in the conservative party, they're currently tearing themselves apart because the majority of the party were on their knees for Trump for the last, you know, four or five years. Well, see, this is, I agree with you. I agree with you. I always say I am longing for the day where I can go back to mocking the right

for hating comedians and not allowing them to make jokes and blah, blah, blah. And I believe that eventually will happen. But I also think it's clear, very, very clear where restrictions around comedy and all sorts of other speech are coming from culturally. Look, I hear you about Donald Trump. I don't like Donald Trump. But in terms of the broader culture, the attacks on people's opportunity to make jokes, to express opinions that are controversial, are overwhelming in it from the left, aren't they? When it comes to things like social media and like cultural stuff, yeah, for sure. I don't disagree with that because that's kind of where the left has its power staked out in.

But when it comes to like legislation, I mean, I would say that the conservative threat is bigger there. And so what do you mean by extremists? Let's actually break that down. Because we're using the word extremists and like all of these words, They mean different things to different people and in context and whatever else. So tell us what you mean by extremist, destiny. Sure. So I would say that Trump, for all intents and purposes, given the ability to run the government

as he would, is about as close to a fascist as you could be without actually being a facial. Or maybe he's a fashion. I'm not sure. Anybody that supports Donald Trump, even if you're like, well, I don't like him that much, but I guess is an extremist by any definition. The fact that January 6th happened and most Republicans don't care about it, the fact that so many of them, a majority of them, don't believe that the last election was done correctly, that it was rigged. These are the ideas of extremists.

Hold on. May I pose you there, Destiny? Again, in the spirit of just comparing things. So I remember, and this, look, I am sort of like sitting and observing from both sides, we're not in America, I really don't affiliate myself with either side of the political spectrum. I remember quite distinctly, Hillary Clinton saying Donald Trump is an illegitimate president in 2016. I personally, not. plenty of people in media and in politics and in all of these fears who flat out denied that Donald Trump was legitimately elected in 2016, who said it was Russia collusion. I mean, look, I was one of them.

I remember going on stage, I'm originally from Russia and talking about how we helped to get Trump elected, right? Because he was so much in the air. The idea was he was elected illegitimately. So I find it hard to clutch my polls when the Republicans are doing. even though I disagree with it, I think the last election was fine, despite various shenanigans, including the Hunter Biden suppression and blah, blah, blah. I'm just saying, I think to present this as the extremism of one side when both parties now do it, unfortunately, is that accurate?

Is that reasonable? Nope. It's the most inaccurate thing of the world. I've heard this talking point and rebutted it like, or rebutted it like 50 billion times. So everybody will point out the one quote where Hillary Clinton said that Donald Trump was an illegitimate president. That one quote, Donald Trump has made 50,000 other statements saying that the election was rigged. He repeats himself quite a lot, but that isn't the point. No, no, that isn't. If I'm on stage as a comedian doing these jokes because it's in the culture and everyone laughs because they recognize the quote-unquote truth in it, isn't that the point? A lot of people thought the election was stolen.

It is exactly the point. If we look at the behavior of the Democratic Party and the Democratic establishment versus the behavior of the Republican Party, Republican leaders and the Republican establishment, the difference is night. and day. Hillary Clinton seated the election the night of. Donald Trump tried to claim victory before the votes were even counted. Hillary Clinton gave one interview where she was salty and she said something about him being an illegitimate president. Donald Trump asked his vice president to overturn the results of the election. There have been a couple of people online that have gone too far, for sure, with the Russia collusion stuff. And it's pretty cringe. Donald Trump on January 6th basically led his followers into an attempted coup d'etat of the government, of which some people,

the oathkeepers have been charged with sedition. The comparison is not even remotely close, and I can't believe anybody would try to say that two things are similar. Like, yeah, you can give me a few quotes that are stupid by liberal leaders that have said dumb shit about Trump that they shouldn't have said, and I agree with that. But to say that the two sides are the same on that, when Donald Trump, to this day, still believes that the election was actually rigged, I don't think it's even remotely comparable. But do you think Hillary Clinton, to this day, believes that she lost that election, fair and fair and square and actual rigged election are two different things, right? Well, Russia collusion, do you think she believes that the election was taken away from her by Russian collusion?

Well, we already know that there was some form of Russia collusion, right? We already know that, like, yes, that some of the DNC hacks, for instance, was done by Russia, that there was coordination between the Goosefer people and WikiLeaks in order to time leaks to damage Hillary Clinton's campaign. We already know from the Mueller indictments that there was a company set up in the United States, one of them being the Internet Research Agency that was literally setting up a protest where they were organizing both sides of it to turn Americans against each other. We already know that that 10 GOP account that had more followers in the actual Tennessee GOP account was ran by people that were operating at the Kremlin. Like, we know that that's real. Now, whether or not, like, Trump himself was personally making requests, well, he did on TV, but maybe that was a joke, right?

Like, that maybe wasn't proven as much. But, like, yeah, we know that there was some level of Russian meddling in order to try and get Trump elected. No, we do know that. And as someone who's from Russia, believe me, I know all about the bot farms and whatever. I just, I, you say that Donald Trump to this day believes that he didn't lose the election. I agree with that. and I think he's wrong. Does Hillary Clinton believe she didn't lose the election?

I'm pretty sure she still believes the election was taken away from her unfairly. Well, again, she believes that she lost the election. She's just going to argue over, like, what were the causes that happened that made the election go the way that it did? But that's fundamentally different than saying the vote totals were rigged. It's a totally wildly different claim. I see your point. That's a fair point. And what would you say to those people who go, look, you know, most of the Republicans at the time,

didn't want Trump. Trump has a different fan, it was a different fan base, different voter base to a lot of the Republican Party. He brings his own people with him, a voter base that has been untapped for a long time, who have been neglected, who a sizable portion of them,

were Bernie Sanders fans. So what would you say to them in that particular argument? Look at any polling data ever to know that that's not true. I mean, Trump enjoys wide and broad support from the Republican Party. He didn't bring over that many Bernie voters. Trump was a very popular. He won a huge primary. He smashed it with Republicans. The idea that Trump just brought some voters out of nowhere or something is just, yeah. He did. He brought a lot of people out who never voted for anyone as well. It happened the same with Brexit in this country. Millions of people,

actually. But anyway, sorry, Francis Carroll. I mean, Trump's voter base looks exactly like most Republican voter bases. There wasn't, I'm not aware of this like a whole bunch of non-bush. I'm sure there were a lot of new voters because it was like a really big election. Same thing with Obama. But it's not like he like brought out some never-before-seen voter base of like a group of people that were untapped or whatever. Like it's the same Republican voters as always. He still enjoys Brod-Supon the Republican Party from standard Republican voters. You know when people, like again, that's thing, I'm not a Trump fan. I want to make that clear, not a Trump supporter in any shape or fall. He's a Trump enthusiast. He's a Trump enthusiast.

I've got the poster above my bed. But when people talk about Trump, particularly people on the left, and they're very critical of him, and this happens for Brexit as well. My response is always the left created Trump, the left created Brexit, because there's a whole swath of people in the United States, in Britain, that have felt left behind with the electoral system. They feel that the elites don't represent them. They've never cared about them.

You know, they've seen de-industrialisation, they've seen their jobs, their societies be absolutely gutted financially, their hearts and souls ripped out of them. And the parties, like Labour or Democrats, who always purported to support, who always purported to care about the working classes effectively abandoned them. So when this person came in, I always say to them, and again, I'm on the left. May I reiterate that, it's our fault. We didn't care about them, so we have helped to create this phenomenon. I mean, yeah, people can say that, but I mean, like, that's kind of like the, that's just like the, the rhythm of politics throughout all of humankind, right? Like, arguably the left created Trump, for sure, but the left that existed before Trump, that was created by conservatives, for sure, right? Like, the rabidly homophobic, the massive warmongering in the United States, the super anti-LGB obsession, the, like, all of that stuff, of course that created this fervent left that was like, oh, well, I hate you guys, like, we need to have gay marriage and, you know, you guys are against abortion.

Yeah. So I mean, like, yeah, of course, both sides are reactions to what the other side is doing. And that's not a new thing, right? Like Trump being created into some radical left group of people in the United States. Yeah, I believe that, of course. But like that radical left didn't come from nowhere either. That was created out of radical conservatives for a long time, too. That's just how that that's the rhythm of politics, right? Okay. And if that's a rhythm of politics, would you agree that things have become more heated now? Yeah, for sure. Yeah. So I guess my question is to you is somebody who is obviously very intelligent and understands politics. how do we take the temperature down? How do we get better candidates for America? Because I think we can both agree. Biden and Trump don't represent the best of your country. Well, Biden. Biden is my guy.

Every guy represents a lot of good America. But obviously as a Biden fan, I would say that. But I would say that the number one issue that we have right now is probably the internet. It's given us the ability to self-segregate in ways that we never have before. I can hyper-fixate and find any piece of information that I want to, support any story that I want, and then I can join another group of people, and we can all share it amongst ourselves, and there are huge financial incentives for honing in on the pieces of information that people want and serving it to them. And I think all of these things kind of like play really toxicly on human psychology and combined with capitalism, basically

make this huge pot of gold waiting for anybody that can figure out how to serve you the most content that you want that agrees with what you already agree with over and over and over and over and over and over again. And I think the internet is like uniquely accelerated that problem. Yeah, I couldn't agree with you more, man. And we, we, We do our best to stay away from that when we can. And of course, it's very easy to look around and go, oh, there's somebody else who just wants to feed their audience red meat all day long. So you answered very well for answers questions about where it's coming from,

but you didn't answer how do we address it. What do you think? This is where I give you the answer that I shouted you for giving me about the family stuff. It's a big problem. So this is the number one issue. So if you've ever... I agree, it's the number one issue, by the way. So here's a problem, okay?

In order to fix anything, first you have to recognize what the problem is, but most people won't actually recognize the problem. I'm 33. When I was a kid, there was this idea that the internet was going to be this amazing thing because now you can look up whatever piece of information you want. You've got so much at your fingertips. A lot of the internet and the information age rests on this absolutely faulty idea that humans are intrinsically truth-seeking machines. And that is absolutely not true. We do not

gravitate towards things that are true. We gravitate towards things that make us feel good. And as the internet gets larger and larger and more information is put out there, people keep saying, well, the studies are available. There's Wikipedia, there's fact checkers, there's news sites, there's YouTube, there's all this stuff. You should know what's true and what's not true. It doesn't make any, the reason why that doesn't work is because people aren't seeking out what's true. They're seeking out what's entertaining or what makes them feel good about themselves. Are you not generalizing? Because look, I am not perfect.

I am not perfect and I definitely like to have my opinions confirmed. But one of the things we've really tried very carefully to do on the show is to genuinely seek truth and to change our mind when we're confronted with facts and to discuss things with people who have different opinions. And our audience, some of them like it, some of they don't. But generally speaking, we don't give a shit because we believe that's the mission of trigonometry and the people who want that will come. And we see, we just interviewed a guy called Isaac Saul, who's created a website, which is like a media website that both conservatives and liberals rate very highly on trust because it covers things objectively.

And so do you not think like you were talking about politics where you get action reaction, there will also be a reaction against this echo chamberness that we are seeing now? And I think quite a lot of people, I mean, you yourself, aren't you an example of this? you were somebody who was feeding red meat or blew me or whatever to your audience, and then you decided you didn't want to do that anymore? I try not to, but the difference is that I go out of my way to have, like, there are different things that I do to make sure that I'm not just doing the echo chamber thing. So, for instance, for any topic that I debate, I can always convincingly debate the other side. There's not a single issue that I argue on where I can't give the other side's argument

better than anybody really that would debate me on it because I've heard all of the best arguments for it. So there's a lot of clips of me like arguing, like, this is why the Holocaust didn't happen, or this is why black people deserve whatever, blah, blah, blah. And it's just me providing the other side and like this is what they would say. I was like great content, mate. Yeah, it is. Yeah, people will clip it and go, oh, my God, destiny is not so. But I'm just saying that like, so that's one thing I'll do, right?

I'll make sure that like, okay, yeah, you know, whatever, whatever I'm arguing, I can always argue the other side. I'm not just giving my points. That's one thing. A second thing I'll do is anytime I hold a position on anything, I'll always ask myself the question, what would it take to change my mind on a particular issue? And if I don't have an answer for that, if there's nothing that would change my mind, then I know that I'm getting lost down some type of, like, echo chamber.

There's a bunch of other smaller things, but, like, those are two big things that will try to keep in mind when it comes to, like, forming and solidifying my political opinions and arguing with other people. But I find that a lot of people don't do any of these things. There's a lot of people that's like, okay, well, how strongly do you believe in this thing? What is the strength of your conviction? I'm like, oh, I would say it's like a nine out of ten. And I'm like, wow, like, how much research do you do? And it's like, well, I listen to a Joe Rogan podcast on it.

Okay. what would it take to change your mind? I don't know if you could change my own those. You have a nine out of ten conviction on something that you heard one time on a podcast, on a podcast and nothing can change your mind over it. I think that's the majority of people. You're making good points,

but that isn't what I was saying. What I was saying is if you are seeking the truth and we are seeking the truth as best we can, we're not perfect. None of the three of us are, of course. But if we're doing that, why don't you think that other people also want that? I just don't think there's much of a reward for it.

It's pretty rare. I've built a brand off of that kind of stuff, but I've also paid like a really heavy price for it too. Now, I'm lucky that I'm big enough online that I can afford to pay some prices, but there's a lot of money in, there's a concept called audience capture where you begin to deliver a certain type of content,

your audience likes it, and then you keep feeding them what they want, and that's like where most of the money online is to be made. People will constantly say this thing. Media, media is a reflection of what the people want, but all the people do is complain about the media. However, people will complain, I don't like the media. They're too sensationalists.

They're too radicalized. They're too horrible, blah, blah, blah. But then you look at the media they consume. They're not watching like NPR or PBS or like these boring, dry documentaries. They're watching people screaming at each other about how like, we need to go and kill all of these people and we need to throw these people in J-win. And it's like, bro, you're consuming exactly the type of media that is being served to you. Like, of course. But see, again, I know I keep positioning myself as this brilliant counter example. Sure. I've stopped watching lots of people who went down the path that you talk about. I'm not going to name names, but there are lots of people who see. started out, for example, being like, hey, I'm a liberal. I'm just asking questions about,

you know, and before you know it, they're like this massive conservative. I'm like, well, that's not interesting to me, right? And that's awesome. If you do that, that's awesome. But like, I'm pretty sure Tim Poole is like one of the most popular, like what, like second or third most popular media podcast. Oh, sure, no, no, no. And that guy is off the wall a lot, you know, like, yeah. Well, I've been on his show and I challenged him and he immediately and followed me on Twitter afterwards. So there you go. But that's not my point. My point is, if there are people like you, and if there are people like us, isn't that actually reason for optimism? And if we are doing that, there've got to be other people there who are not content creators who are also interested in that

process of de-radicalization, if you want to call it that. Oh, sure. I think it's possible, yeah. I think there is cause to be optimistic for it. I think something that's happened over the years is people that are correct assume that they don't have to dress their message up at all because they're factually correct. And what's happened is, is over the years, over a decade, basically people that are, I would say, are incorrect, have spent so much time dressing their message up to make it exciting, entertaining, easily palatable. And they've done a really good job at growing audiences, while people who are, I would say, more factually correct, are just lazy and boring. And they don't do much to make their message more, yeah, digestible to people. So I think if people...

He's calling us lazy in boring, like... Well, no, or even myself. Like, because I said... I would say about myself for a long time. Like, oh, yeah, there's no point in arguing this. Like, people just want sensational content, blah, blah, blah, blah. But I think if you put a lot of effort into making, like, good content around stuff that isn't, like, super politically radical, I think you can get viewers doing it.

That's my current political project is what I'm trying to do. That's what we're saying, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think it's important as well, it's to give, have faith in your, in the audience, and have faith in your fellow human beings. because it's very easy, you know, and look, I do it as well. When you see these, you know, so-and-so destroys so-and-so, whatever it may be, they get huge views, you think, oh, this person, all these people love this.

And he goes, just because something is popular, actually doesn't mean that people enjoy it, doesn't mean that they find it rewarding. You know, if you look at the mainstream media, one of the biggest interviews in the history of the internet in UK media was when Channel 4. interviewed Jordan Peterson and it was kind of a gotcha style interview and that and it and that produced the saying so what you're saying is right because she kept trying to misrepresent and it got huge views but it really destroyed channel four's reputation I mean there are a lot of people and anecdotally and people that

I talked to who saw that as a time when the mainstream media lost their way not just channel four so I think it's important to have faith in people and really that a lot of people want to be treated like adults as well. Yeah, I mean, I would hope so, yeah. I mean, that's the direction that I'm pushing my political content. So hopefully, yeah. Yeah, and you said you paid a heavy price for what you would, for your views and your opinions.

What do you mean by that, Destiny? What is the heavy price? Well, I mean, I didn't tell the line on the written house thing. I felt pretty strongly about that. And it cost me of a partnership on Twitch. I get into fights with a lot of what I would consider very radical trans people and that I think arguably cost me my account on Twitch

So yeah I mean depending on who I'm fighting Within any point in time Depending on how principled I want to be in my positions It can get me into a lot of trouble And what was your beef with the trans issue? I'm curious I don't believe that trans women and cis women Should be competing together in the same athletic events

I don't think that there's a good argument for that You lost your Twitch account for that I don't know I can't honestly tell you. All I know is that my account got banned the next day for it's a hateful speech, but they don't tell you exactly what it was. But I don't use trans public slurs. Like, I'm very pro-trans.

I don't use any slurs or anything like that. So I don't really know what my account got banned for. What does it mean that you're very pro-trans? I think that trans people are real. I think that they're entitled to some type of medical treatment. I probably would support minors seeking medical treatment, depending on the roadblocks that are there or the path to getting medical treatment there, it just depends on the particular issue.

Okay, so you would see minors. What do we talk about with minors, Destiny? At what age would you say somebody should be allowed to seek medical treatment? All of it's going to come down to what the, I guess, what clinically becomes like the most effective line of treatment. But essentially, if somebody knows, I think that if by like 13, 14, when you, especially when you start going through puberty, you're going to know if you're trans or not. You're going to definitely fill it in.

Now, some people might think they're trans, but they're not. but if they are trans, they'll know it then. So we need to figure out better forms of therapy or counseling to where we can weed out the people that probably aren't trans and are having other problems in their life versus the ones that definitely are trans, so that hopefully you can avoid them going through, I guess, like the catastrophic male puberty for trans women is the thing that fucks them up a lot. Right. Well, would you agree?

That's actually, I think, quite a healthy way to a large extent of looking at it, which is we need to make sure that the people who are getting the physical and hormonal transition really are the ones that are like definitely, definitely trans. Because we've seen in this country, I don't know if you're familiar with the Tavistock Clinic and all the associated things that have been going on in this country. But we've seen thousands of people now suing because they were encouraged to transition when perhaps it wasn't the right decision for them. Would you agree that we probably went too far in that direction at some point?

It's possible that the thing is it's hard to say like, are we going too far? far. I'm sure that you could find examples of going too far. There's thousands of examples. This is what I'm saying. Thousands of detransition. There's thousands of people suing. Sure. I understand what you're saying, but the UK has a population of like 70 million people. So when you say thousands of examples, I don't know if that means much, right? So I agree that we can probably find lots of examples of people going too far, but you would have to agree that there's probably lots of examples of not going far enough.

Like I'm pretty sure in the United Kingdom, the wait time for hormone therapy or related stuff, even if you have gone through the whole process you're fully approved, it's like two to four years, which is, horrible, right? If we, if we do believe... This is what happens when you have socialized health care. You're going to wait for an ambulance for about 40 hours in this country. Well, thankfully in the United States, you don't have to wait. You just die because you can't afford the treatment, so, I mean...

They're both bad options. Well, I mean, you guys spend way less on your health care than we do, and we seem to have comparable outcomes, so, I mean... We, do you know that the National Health Service is like the fourth biggest employer in the world, I think, in this country? So we spend quite a lot on health care. Let's not over that. We still spend probably in the United States, but like four times more U.S. spending on, like, if I were to check, like, the United States spent more money than anyone else in the world on healthcare. It's insane. Well, of course, you're the richest country in the world. But look, let's come back to the trans issue, because this is kind of important. Yes, I am sure that there are some trans people who ended up having to wait too long for hormones. I think that's a lot less bad than people, no offense, I'm going to put it quite bluntly, chopping their dick off when they didn't mean to.

Yeah, but the problem is like the less bad thing. Like, it feels like any... A child chopping their dick off seems like quite a big problem to me. Yeah, but also somebody killing themselves because they're not allowed to get treatment because conservatives don't believe trans people are real. That's also a really big problem. Hold on. Hold on. First of all, I'm not a conservative. Secondly, I didn't say you were, but I'm saying that's the other end of the argument.

But you arguing with me, not with conservatives, right? So let's have the debate between me and you, not conservative. Okay, but I'm not in favor of children chopping their dicks off if they're not actually trans. So I don't know who you're arguing with for that point. No, no. You said that you, I actually agreed with you. I said, I think you're right to say that people need to be weeded out. I think it was the term you used to make sure that people who are going through transition

are definitely, definitely, definitely the people who need it, right? And what I'm saying to you, from my perspective, we had thousands of people who did do that, who were not actually trans and who needed help for autism or who needed help for some other kind of thing that they were dealing with, right? And isn't that a problem that shows that we went way too far in that direction, causing thousands of young children to be injured and maimed for life? Okay. Are you saying that in the United Kingdom, there were thousands of children given sex reassignment surgery? Like, there were thousands. So if you and we have thousands of people suing the Tavistock Clinic, there's probably more than that. Well, hold on. Hold on. I'm asking

very specifically, because you're saying that there were thousands of children in the UK. That would be tremendous if that was the case. You're saying there are thousands of children, minors, under, in the UK, is it 16 or 18? Under 18. We're had sex reassignment of surgery. No, no, no, they had some form of medical treatment in that area. So either hormones or what do you mean? Oh, hormones change your biology just the same. Well, in a whole, there's a huge difference between a 15-year-old went on puberty blockers for a year versus a 15-year-old had their penis chopped off. Those are, not to say that either is okay, but like the puberty blockers.

But that's my point. Neither is okay. But they're worlds apart in terms of like harm. They're not worlds apart. If you take puberty blockers, that has a huge impact on fertility, on your life, on your voice, on your physical appearance. We see people who are basically young women with beards now. You think that's not a big transition for someone to go through?

I didn't say it wasn't a big transition. So that's all I'm saying. No, no, no, hold on. You said that it's not worlds apart. I'm telling you that it is world's apart. I didn't say it's not worlds apart. Yeah, okay. I'm saying that it is worlds apart. The difference between being on puberty block is for a year

versus having your genitals changed is huge, right? Of course. Both can be bad. Okay, okay. The difference between being punched in the face and beaten endlessly in the face is quite big. I think that a young child being punched in the face is bad. Sure. Okay, yeah, I agree with that. Okay.

If it is the case that there are people that are inappropriately issued or prescribed medications or whatever as minors, that sucks. What we have to figure out is like what is the cost benefit, right? Like, let's say, for instance, it's the case that 10 children per year are prescribed something that they didn't need and 10,000 children per year are prescribed something they did need. That'd probably be an acceptable trade-off. But if it's like 100,000 children a year give it something they don't need and a thousand children you're giving something they do need, that would be a totally unacceptable trade-off. This is what I'm saying. We have thousands of people suing one clinic, one clinic

in this country. And this problem is even worse in the United States, statistically speaking. We have thousands of people, it is. Thousands of people. Is it? Is it? Yes. Yes. I don't think it is. Well, this is where you and I might agree. Because you have paid medicine, there's the financial incentive to encourage this as well. But just stick with this point with me, right? Okay. Thousands of children, over a thousand people suing the Tavistock Clinic because they believe they were giving the wrong treatment in relation to transition. And it's my

view that the reason that that happened is that there was ideological capture. You talk about audience capture. There was ideological capture in these left-wing institutions, as we talked about before, that encouraged this process and ended up taking it way, way, way past the line that you and I both agree is the right line, which is let's make sure these people are definitely trans before we start cutting things off them. Yeah, I mean, I'm not sure where the disagreement is. Like, if there are medical practitioners... I'm asking you, do you think we went too far, given that those were the results? Holistically? No. For this one clinic? Yeah, possibly. It sounds like it. You're saying that they're

going to be in the process of suing them. I don't know what that case is going to look like until it starts to plan on the courts, but it could be the case of this clinic went too far, yeah. Okay, if a thousand women sued me and allegations of sexual harassment, would you conclude that I was a stand-up guy? No. Right. That's kind of what I'm getting that. No, no, no, no. Do you see the difference, though? If you were to ask me, do you think that the Tavist Stock Clinic went too far? I would say, yeah, of course. It sounds like for sure it does. But you're not asking me that. You're asking me if the whole of trans stuff in the world has gone too far. And then you're studying me one court case that hasn't

even started yet where families might sue the Tavist stock. I mean, I personally know like 10 people that I've spoken to who are detransitioners, who were encouraged down this path in your country, not ours, that are public about it. Now, imagine how much it takes to go public after you've gone through that. I imagine there's quite a lot of people in America who've gone through the same process who are not happy about it. Yeah, but there's probably a lot of other people on the other side too who are trans and could never get medical treatment or was never taken seriously or had horrible problems their whole lives and nobody saw them either, right? I mean, I don't agree with that, but let's leave. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, hold on. How can you not agree

with that. You don't think that there are... You're suggesting that in the current climate, there are people who are being denied transition? Yeah, if you live in like Louisiana or Indiana or Mississippi or if you're in one of these states or whatever, you don't think some of these people can be born to families that don't believe in trans people or in communities that don't think that trans people are real, that don't want to come out or don't even know about the idea of it. Yeah, of course. I'm not saying...

Can they not get on the bus and go to another state? No, in the United States, we don't have buses like you guys do, okay? We have school buses. Okay, can they not get on a plane? I mean, you know what I mean. Hold on a plane. Come on. Can you just rent a flat in London and go work? No, of course. These things are expensive, right? I'm, well, I just want to be clear. Well, you can't afford a $300 flight if you're going to get hundreds of thousands of pounds or dollars of surgery. It's not just about getting the surgery. You're jumping ahead to the most radical thing. A lot of trans people that are fully transitioned don't even get sex reassignment surgery. That's like the most extreme thing.

But no, I don't think the average teenager in the United States who's 14, 15, 16 years old can afford a 300. plane ticket. I don't think so. I don't even know if you're allowed to fly as a minor without an adult accompany. You're not allowed to fly, but you're allowed to chuck your dick off. That seems quite extreme to me. I think, okay, like, I'm acknowledging, I'll make the acknowledgement that, like, there are clinics and there are people that have suffered ideological capture and have gone too far with some of the trans stuff. I agree with that in terms of diagnosis people. But to say that, like, it's never happened on the other end. I don't think that that's an honest engagement with the topic. That's not what I'm saying. That's not, I'm not saying it's never happened. I'm just saying,

think we went too far towards one side rather than the other. And I will grant you 50 years ago, yeah, I don't think trans people had a great life. I think we can all agree on that. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Good. We'll leave that there because I think we've both said basically what we both mean.

Right. Okay. So just staying with the trans issue, but a different part of it, what do you think about with gender ID destiny? Somebody identifying it as a woman and then having. access to women's spaces. Do you think that that is, do you agree with that or do you disagree with that? I don't agree with the self-ide position at all, though. Okay, interesting. Why? It just doesn't. It's a totally incoherent position. If we believe that gender is real, which I think we used to,

if trans people believe that gender are real, which a lot of them do, but some of the more extreme ones don't, then that has to be reducible to some real facet of your brain. And it can't just be that you are what you say you are. That doesn't make any. sense. There has to be an underlying fact of the matter. You can't just identify as something and be something. So, yeah, I don't think that you can just identify as whatever and then get access to whatever. There has to be some process to verify or validate whatever it is you're identifying as. Okay. And do you think, for instance, trans women should have access to women's spaces? If they've, you know, if they've gone part of the way there, etc., etc., etc., etc.

It depends on what they present as a woman and they look like a woman in it, for all intents of purposes it seems like it, then yeah, they probably should, yeah. Okay. And what about when it comes to things like women's refugees, women's prisons, where there are vulnerable women. Do you think that it should be a space for biological women only? Almost certainly not, but those get more complicated. Why do you say almost certainly not? Because nobody agrees with that position. That's insane. There are people who certainly agree with that position.

That's only because they haven't thought about it, much like no no i would disagree with that do you have i'm care do either of you have daughters oh no no okay if you had a do you know who buck angel is yes we've had him on the show we've would you want your daughter sharing a jail cell or a shower or a bathroom with buck angel because that's a biological female okay so that's a biological female so when people say like only biological female like i don't know what people mean by that that sounds insane to me i think that there are people that have transitioned far enough where it's obvious they should be house differently Now, if you're like a huge burly guy and you've got a huge beard and huge muscles and you're like, well, I'm a woman and I identify something.

Then no, fuck you, either go somewhere else or figure something else about it. But for people that are like clearly passing, right? Like, I don't think I would want to be in some space with my son if we go to like a sauna or some shit. I don't know if people do that. And all of a sudden somebody steps in and they've got these huge knockers, these massive, you know, 34 double triple Ds. And I'm like, whoa, what are you doing in here? That's a little bit strange. You're like, oh, well, I'm a biological male, even though I've got like, I'm fully passing and fully, like, that's just weird to me. I think it's going to depend a lot on if the person is passing or not. That makes sense. I agree with you.

And let's go to another issue that I think you and I probably will agree on, hopefully, which is the war in Ukraine, because I find it absolutely mind-boggling how both the section of the left and right have come up with all sorts of crazy conspiracy shit about that that they indulge in simply because they want to oppose the current thing. What have you made of all of that? I said for a while in the United States, probably around the world, there's kind of this big, like, populist rift. And I think that populists in general feel a certain way about things. And there's a lot of populace on the left and right. And so they all kind of like come together on how they view a lot of the Ukrainian stuff. So like a populace might tend to be like isolationist or might tend to be like not involved in foreign affairs. So they'll see us sending any money to a country as like evil or horrible.

And everybody's got problems with their countries in the West. So they'll say like, well, Russia is better or the West is corrupt and blah, blah, blah. Or they'll say things like, I don't trust Western media. But then they'll start giving you news from Russia today. Like, I don't know. It's all just, I think like, my mind. opinion, populism is like a brain rat, but yeah, I think it all comes down. That's what I find very odd. When people rightly say they don't trust the Western mainstream media, I think they're

right not to. I think the Western mainstream media. Yeah, but if you say that you don't trust Western media and then you cite me Russia today, all you've told me is that you have like 65 IQ or you're in the middle of a stroke. Like there's just no shot. You said it better than I ever could or would. Well said. Well, guys, send in your questions for us and destiny. We've had a robust debate about all sorts of things. Or maybe talk about a couple of questions that we had on locals, ask our last question, anything else you want to bring up? Because I've sort of talked over. No, no, no, it's fine. So you're a big fan of Biden then, Destiny. Yeah, I am. Yeah. Okay. And look, there's, I know a lot of people on the left,

on the Democratic left, who really dislike Biden. He means his girlfriend, by the way. There's people, you know, on the right, who obviously dislike Biden. There's people who say, you know, that he's this is a man who is very elderly, he's in cognitive decline, that he shouldn't be in charge of the most powerful nation in the world. So explain to us, why is it that you lot are a Biden supporter? I think Biden has done a really good job at quelling the radical aspects of the left in the party. He was really big on condemning the violence during the BLM riots, which I thought was really good. He hasn't acquiesced or given into any of the weird socialist commie shit on the left, which I think is really good. He's done it fairly adamantial. He's done it fairly adamantial

job, or actually more than an admirable job of working with Republican lawmakers to pass like major legislation, which I think is really good. He's repeatedly said that he's trying to be the president of both the left and the right. When he's calling out people on the right, he's trying to specify that it's like just the like these MAGA people and not necessarily all Republicans. Yeah, I just think he's made, I think he's been like legislatively effective. I think his foreign policy has been pretty good. I think he's just done all around like way better than I expected him to and I hope he continues to do decently. Right, but don't you think that's fairly antagonistic about the MAGA? Like surely if you want somebody to change their mind, if you want people to come over to your

way of thinking, or not even that, or adopt a more mainstream position by antagonizing those people, is that really the right move? I mean, any leader has to be able to call out like problematic aspects of his team. I mean, there is a huge issue with people in the United States that still deny the results of the last election. So, I mean, you have to be able to. I think France's point is is attacking them. going to convince them otherwise?

I mean, I don't know if it's going to convince him otherwise, but he has to say something about it. It can't just remain silent on the issue where you've got this growing wing in your country that is denying the results of the election. But wouldn't a more conciliatory tone, wouldn't a tone that actually tries to get through to someone and be more, like I said, more conciliatory? Wouldn't that be a more effective tool? There's nothing to be conciliatory.

about, though. These people are saying that the election was stolen, that Biden is a false president, that Biden is being controlled and e-cenile, that all the vaccine stuff is rigged and untrue. Like, there's nothing to concede to these people. I don't think you can concede anything. They're insane. The mega aspect of the Republican Party is actually fucking crazy. And the Republicans are starting to realize it now as they're starting to all break down against each other. Okay. I'm curious about the senile point, because I've not followed Joe Biden's presidency that closely. I actually agree with you on aspects of his foreign policy. And I think you're right that I mean, he didn't go as far to the extreme left as someone else might have done because I think

he's a sort of center left guy. But do you not cringe when you see a clip of him struggling to get a sentence out? It's a little bit cringy, nowhere near as cringy as Trump's daily petulant child tweets were, though. But I mean, those are pretty fucking cringe. I agree. Also sometimes entertaining. but again, you've gone to like, what about? I think our point... No, yeah, I mean, like, Biden definitely is slowing down in his older years. Yeah, of course, for sure he is. Okay.

But I mean, like, I only get to vote on two people in my federal election, and I would take Biden... No, no, no, no, I agree. I agree. I think Francis earlier question was much more apt, which is, like, are these two people the best representatives of America? I hope, I really hope not, is, I guess, how I feel about it. And what about the withdrawal from Afghanistan?

Do you not think that was major... that was a, that majorly tarnished his reputation, the fact it was so badly handled. I, all I'll say is I'll give him credit for actually pulling out. I mean, Trump had drawn our troops down to like, I think, four-digit levels there. I mean, it sucked that, I mean, obviously the images of like people being airlifted off of embassies after Biden said that wouldn't happen was pretty shitty. But we got out as well as we could have. I mean, yeah, what are you going to do?

All right. Let's do some super chats if you're up for it. And we'll do some more questions in a second. Anton, can we pull up the superchats? We've had a bunch. Send more in whether you agree with destiny or with us or with us both or disagree with all of us. Let's have some good questions and talk about it. And we'll get a couple of the locals questions first.

So Wuhan Wet Market says, as a joke that will make him laugh very hard, you should ask him what an NFT is. I don't know what that's about. A dumb interview I did a long time ago with a guy who didn't know what NFTs were. Okay. I still don't really particularly know. But he actually asked to seriously. No, no, nobody does. So you're good.

Good. He mentions also that you came under fire for being an acquaintance. Is this true being an acquaintance of Nick Fuentes? I did a lot of debates with Fuentes. A lot of people don't like it when I, a lot of people don't like it when I talk to, like anybody that's like radical on one side or the other, especially on the right thing.

And I had Fuentes was like over my house and we did conversations. We went out to eat and did conversations and shit. A lot of people got really triggered about that. Yeah, it doesn't surprise me. I mean, he does strike me. I mean, all your criticisms of the Republican right, I think, multiply them about by a thousand, add genuine racism, anti-Semitism, white supremacy to that. And that's what you get with Nick Fenters, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yep. So, but that clearly, I mean, you clearly believe that free speech is important. So you're one of those people that does. Yeah, for sure. I mean, I would hope that

like through enough conversations that you can show that like these ideas are not good or wrong or like I think it's a more effective way of combating things and just like screaming people down or saying that we can't talk to these people or whatever I don't I don't believe in that approach and how did your debate with him go um I thought all them went really well um we had a huge thing on 9-11 that I thought was like pretty funny um and then we've had a couple conversations that I thought went pretty well for me but yeah and John Bryce says do you believe woke ideology is the way of the future for the West or is it a passing fad? It's probably some kind of fad.

Everything seems to be a fad these days. We'll see where we end up in a few years. Anton, are you able to pull superchats up? Well, let's go. Let's get one up. There we go. So this is from Brendan O'Leary, and he says, capitalism is evolution.

Socialism is creationism, and communism is its intelligent design theory. Discuss. Intelligence is social. So we're back at university here. Yeah, wait. Can you repeat that again for me? It's on the screen.

You should be able to see it. But I think what Brendan is basically saying is socialism and communism are as dumb as deny an evolution. But I get the sense that you're not particularly in favor of those things anyway, right? Yeah, no, I'm a huge anti-socialism communism. Communists is super stupid. Yeah, agreed. Cool. Next. Okay.

And this is Calm from Calm on the ground. Do you think, Destiny, there's a problem with the voting system? And if there is, who do you blame for them? that? I think the voting system works really well. I think the issue that we have in the United States is that people, the issue is that the voting system right now is expressing the will of the people really well, which is that we are historically fucking divided and we all hate each other. So I mean, like, yeah, I think the voting system works fine. People are just mad because nothing's happening, but nothing's happening because I think we're super divided. Well, what about

how long it takes to get the results? I mean, there are like third world countries that can get the results on the day and you guys have to wait for weeks often. Um, I know. I know. It depends on how we do the types of votes. But if you don't like it, I guess change the way the votes are counted. But I mean, there are also probably third world countries that rig their voting system. And there are, I don't know how many people are voting in different types of countries. But yeah. Like Brazil got the results on the night.

Okay. It's quite a lot of people on Brazil. Good for Brazil. Okay. So you're not bothered by that. No worse. No, cool. Thank you.

Next, Anton. Let's go. Richard the Hall says, how much do you think your views are purely based on fact versus your interpretation of fact based on your values or view of you, in nature. I mean, I'm going to give you the answer that every single person will give you, and I'm going to say, I hope all of my views are based on fact. Or, I mean, I guess your interpretation of facts is how a person views facts, but yeah.

Okay. Next, please, Anton. One second. We actually, Destina, we didn't ask you the question we always ask at the end, which is, what do you think is the one thing that we're not talking about as a society that we really should be? I feel like getting people to come together and have conversations is really important. Even if people still disagree, I think it keeps both sides rooted a little bit more firmly in reality when they're talking to each other. When they stop talking to each other, both sides run off into extremely crazy territory.

Okay. Next. Ready? Anton? Okay. So, J.S. Powell asks, who are your views on net zero? He's talking net zero emissions? Yeah. I think that's an awesome thing to do. I don't know if it's going to happen in like five to 10 years or or 2050 or whatever people are pointing towards. I mean, that should definitely be like the direction that we're aimed in, but we have to balance out our desire for net zero emissions with whatever realistic energy policies we can have to make sure people aren't like dying in the streets of like coldness and shit, right? That's going to be like, I think net zero is as much an economic question as it is, you know, like social policy or whatever. Yeah, well, it's kind of not how it's being pursued, certainly not in this country at the moment, where in winter, thousands of pensioners die because they can't afford to heat the house because we've jacked up the price of energy via various stupid energy-related policies. But it sounds like you're not in favor of that.

So you're not in favor of pensioners freezing. Good stuff. All right. Depends on the types of, no, I'm just going to hear, but. Boxhead, he says, I thought his investigation, is it of Keffles was excellent. So kudos for that service. So tell us a little bit of what that was about, Destiny. Basically just a person that I had huge disagreements with that was telling a lot of lies about me on the internet.

And I did a huge investigation of this person to prove that they were indeed the liar. Go figure. Okay. Perfect. Thanks, Boxett. Appreciate the Fiver. Next. What else we got on?

One more. Chaotic neutral with the Fiver says, how much do you think you affected Sneiko? Feels like he became a bit less unhinged after talking to you? Hopefully a bit. but I mean, obviously, now he's in like way more radical circles, so I don't know how much effect at all I have on him at this point. Okay. Anton Zed.

All right, man. Is there anything else you didn't say or want to add before we wrap up? No, I think that's it. Cool. Where can people find you online? At YouTube.com slash destiny or Instagram.com slash destiny. Destiny, thanks for joining us. And thank you guys for watching and listening.

We'll be back tomorrow with our usual raw shows. And, of course, on Sunday with another. brilliant episode like this one. This week's episode is with Ariel Pink, who I imagine Destiny probably wouldn't like very much because he attended a peaceful protest on January 6th. He didn't go to the violent rally or anything like that. Got himself cancelled anyway. So we did a long talk in which I challenge him just about as much as I challenged Destiny, including about quite a lot of the conspiracy theories that he has about lots of things to do with politics. So join us on Sunday, but of course we've got a full program of raw shows for you this week, Thursday, Friday and Saturday,

We'll see you tomorrow. And for those of you like your Trigonometry on the go, don't forget it's always available as a podcast. Take care and see you soon. We'll see you on locals, guys. Bye. Are you tired of using bulky old wallets, giving you a bulge where you don't want it to be?

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probably run near like the sort of frozen food aisles, and then just bark questions at them before they can escape. Not the American ones, as they have guns. And you'd have to be extra careful with the females, as that's how I got in trouble last time. Do you really imagine you're going to get Douglas Murray near the frozen food aisle? If you want to ask our incredible guest questions,

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