TRIGGERnometry - Lord Nigel Lawson: "I've Never Been More Worried About This Country"

Episode Date: December 6, 2020

Former Chancellor of the Exchequer Lord Nigel Lawson joins us! Episode Sponsored by Ridge Wallet: https://www.ridge.com/TRIGGER Use Code “TRIGGER ” for 10% off your order Join our exclusive community on Locals! https://triggernometry.locals.com/  OR Support TRIGGERnometry Here: Paypal: https://bit.ly/2Tnz8yq https://www.subscribestar.com/triggernometry https://www.patreon.com/triggerpod Find TRIGGERnometry on Social Media:  https://twitter.com/triggerpod https://www.facebook.com/triggerpod https://www.instagram.com/triggerpod About TRIGGERnometry:  Stand-up comedians Konstantin Kisin (@konstantinkisin) and Francis Foster (@francisjfoster) make sense of politics, economics, free speech, AI, drug policy and WW3 with the help of presidential advisors, renowned economists, award-winning journalists, controversial writers, leading scientists and notorious comedians. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hello and welcome to Trigonometry. I'm Francis Foster. I'm Constantine Kishin. And this is a show for you, if you want, honest conversations with fascinating people. We are delighted to say that a fantastic guest today is a former Chancellor of the Exchequer under the Margaret Thatcher government. Lord Nigel Lawson, welcome to Trigonometry. Thank you. It's a great pleasure to have you on the show. As I mentioned, you were responsible for running this country's economy for over six years, I believe. in the 80s. And you're now well into your ninth decade on this planet.

Have you seen anything like the sort of economic disaster that this country is facing at the moment in your time? No, I haven't. It is appalling. And I am afraid that the way we're hitting is to a disaster. And when you talk about the, direction we're heading, just for ordinary people who watch the show, who may not be economists or experts on this, who don't have your level of expertise. Can you just elaborate on what you see coming down the line for this country? Well, the most serious thing I see coming down the line

is nothing to do with this pandemic, nothing to do with the coronavirus. I think that although this lockdown has almost certainly done more harm than good, there's clearly a very good likelihood that at least one of the vaccines they've come up with, and I hope the others as well, but at least one of them will work and that we will escape from this pandemic and its consequences. The problem is the completely gratuitous disaster, which I'm afraid to say, Boris Johnson, who I like, but this has set out the so-called green industrial revolution, this 10-point plan. This is the biggest disaster, economic disaster, if they go through this, and he seems determined to do so, that has happened in my lifetime, which is quite a long lifetime, as you've pointed out.

I was trying to emphasize your level of experience rather than to say anything about how old you are. That was the goal. But you mentioned this green strategy. A lot of people will think that, you know, climate change is an issue that we need to tackle. Some people say this is an opportunity to do that. What is your concern with that economic strategy?

Well, the strategy, incidentally, I think that climate change is not a threat. It's happening very gently at a fraction of a degree per decade, which is something we can perfectly well live with. But the problem is that this so-called strategy, the degree of industrial revolution, is to move away from cheap, affordable and reliable energy, to extremely costly and unreliable energy

and to do so at an inordinate cost all the experts, for example, Professor Michael Kelly and everybody else who knows about this sort of it. And I know a little bit about energy because before I became Chancellor, I was Secretary of State for Energy. So it's not a new field.

But the cost of moving from cheap and reliable energy to very expensive and unreliable energy is massive and it's crazy. And I really worry, I've never worried so much about the future path of the British economy and therefore of this country more than I do now. Nigel, you saw Lord Lawson,

you're talking about this. energy, specifically what do we mean? Is it wind? Is it solar panels? What type of energy resources are we talking about here? Well, the biggest thing that Johnson wants to move to is wind, which is hugely expensive and very unreliable. The wind people will tell you that the costs that are high now are coming down. That is totally untrue. are of anything going up. So it is sort of a burden for the British people of their energy costs, the costs for travel, the costs for heating their home,

every other cost involved in energy, is going to increase really substantial hugely, unless he has the sense to abandon this crazy plan. And Lord Lawson, look, again, I'm an absolute layman. I don't know the first thing about energy and all the rest of it. But my question is, why, at a time of a global crisis, the pandemic, when our economy looks ever more unstable, are we embarking on renewable energies? That's a very good question.

A very good question. I think that it's partly because this has become this cleanery, has become something of a new religion at a time when Christianity and other religions are less and less in people's minds and hearts and thinking. But also I think it is a design to, take our minds off the pandemic. But it's crazy. Lord Lawson, you were Chancellor of the Exchequer, as I mentioned.

If a Conservative Prime Minister, I'm sure the one you served under wouldn't have done this, but if a Conservative Prime Minister had walked into your office and said, Chancellor, what we need to do at this time when we're facing the worst economic situation for 300 years is to embark on this, what would your words have been to that Prime Minister?

I would be fabulously. Certainly Margaret Thatcher wouldn't have print with anything so stupid. And I'm afraid that I would do my best to dissuade the Prime Minister who said that. And if not, I would leave the government. It's an interesting thing also that it's a conservative government that's doing this. I mean, of all the different parties that we have, you would have thought they might have been the least likely to have done. this, would you not? I would have thought that. It is crazy. I think you have to see it to a certain extent

in the psychology of Boris Johnson, who loves big projects, irrespective of the cost. And Lord Lawson, I'm looking at this conservative government, and this government, to me, doesn't seem particularly conservative, and it doesn't seem very right of centre on economics. Do you think this is a conservative government? Well, it is a conservative government, but one has to see things as they are and assess this project,

the Green Industrial Revolution, and it is absolutely mad. I mean, of course, ironically, although it's mad, the Labour opposition is supporting it, as you know. Because it seems to me that in this country, we don't really have any credible opposition. If you look at, for instance, the issue of lockdown, the Labour government wants us locking down even harder, even faster,

all the rest of it. Now you're talking about this Green Revolution, which is going to cost the taxpayer even more, which is going to make our energy source more unstable. Again, the Labour government are not putting any, form of opposition their way. So quite frankly, it does it, it does seem more in a form of political crisis now? Well, certainly you're right. And that's why I said a few moments ago that I've never been more depressed about the future for this country. I mean, I hope that

the government might come to its senses and abandon this black. But it is a lot. But it is a this absolutely be a commitment that they've made so far. But it's a suicidal commitment. And setting that to one side, a loss, and I understand it's an important issue, of course it is. But if we just rise above it a little bit and look at the bigger picture of the economy, from your vantage point, what do you see more broadly in terms of the cost of the lockdown, the cost of the pandemic, which has been great as well, not only the response to it, but the pandemic itself. It's obviously taken lives. It's forced us to reorganize the national health services,

forced us to focus resources in a different way. And what do you see for the country, you know, setting the green agenda side? I'm sorry to be so gloomy, but there are a number of things about the economy at this present time before the Green Industrial Revolution has got going. as you know, I hope it never will, but Boris Johnson seems determined to do it. But the project at the moment, the situation at the moment, with this massive deficit, budget deficit, with a huge, massive debt burden of the country, that in itself, in itself, is quite alarming. It's not necessary to have a deficit. I mean, I was able to bring the country around,

turn the country around, from a deficit, not as big as this one now, but pretty big, to a balance splurges and indeed a very small surface, and it's perfectly possible to do it. But at the moment, everything is going in the wrong direction. And how would you do it now? How would you begin to tackle the deficit and the massive mounting debt that we've incurred? And let's be clear, it's not just something that's happened in the last eight months.

We've been building up this debt and expanding our deficit, which contributes to it, for decades now. Well, you have to do it, obviously, on both sides of the balance. You have to cut back on government, spending, which is to a certain extent in his latest statement, Rishi Sunak, the President-Chancellor, has started to do.

And you also have to do a bit on, however, unpalatable, on the side of raising taxation. And how severe, do you, because we had austerity. We had austerity in 2008, and it lasted however long it was, I think, almost 10 years. Do you see us going into a second austerity now? We might call it that. But yes, that's what needs to be done. And but how severe do you think these austerity measures are going to be? Are they going to be deeper and harder than they were in 2008?

Well, we certainly need to be as hard. even now because of the consequences of the pandemic, they'll certainly have to be like that. And after all, we survived that. It wasn't a disaster. We survived that. Look, I spend a lot of time telling you what's wrong with the world, so let me tell you about something that's actually right.

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That's Avocadogreenmatress.com slash trigger. Avocado green mattress.com slash trigger. Dude. What's new? The world didn't come to an end. But certainly a lot of people would argue that it was painful for many, many people. Some people would say it led to a rise in crime due to a reduction in the number of police. We can go down the list.

Obviously, all of that can be debated. but I don't know that, and this is less of a question, more of a statement, really. I don't know that many people recognized at a time when FOLO was introduced, when self-employment grants were introduced, when the lockdowns were introduced, the impact it would have on their lives. And I wonder, frankly, if that had been explained to them whether we'd seen the same level of enthusiasm for the lockdowns that we've had. Well, no, the enthusiasm for the lockdown, I think, is misguided. I think the evidence is accumulating that the harm done by the lockdown is greater than any good. You have to make tough choices and you never find in government that everything you do can be all good and now harm.

It's always a mixture. But you hope what you do, the good outweighs the harm. I don't think the lockdown has. I said this is not the main concern because I think it is likely that once the vaccination, I hope it happens straight away, at least once the vaccination is clear that it's being safe and totally effective, that the lockdown will come to an end. The problem for the economy doesn't. go just like that, but it greatly diminishes.

See, one of the problems is that the scientific advisors who advise the response to the pandemic have openly said that they don't take the economic into account. They say, they said it to a House of Commons committee. That's a matter for the Treasury. But Boris Johnson has wanted to cover for everything.

So he thinks that if he can say, well, this is what my scientific advisors recommend, then that gives him a political cover that he would like. There are distinguished judges like Professor de Gupta are in Oxford who has also said

she's a scientist, a distinguished scientist that's a long time doing more hard than good. Francis, do you like exploring your Englishness? Every single Friday night, mate. Really? What do you do? Well, you read a book, do you? I do actually. It's called Exploring Englishness. And it's a book written by a trigonometry fan called Vivian Endicott.

And you know it's good because this is the first book I've ever seen in reading. Joking aside, as you know, I am now a British citizen. But I'll still always think of myself as Russian for tax purposes. Having said that, if my children grow up in this country having been born here and think of themselves as still Russian, I'd be disappointed. I'd feel like it was a failure on my part to educate them to be part of this country. That is the wonderful thing about this book, is it allows you to explore details of English culture, to do activities, to go on quest on.

So the nerd that we really enjoyed that. The thing that I loved about exploring Englishness was a way that it avoided angry identity politics and instead focused on what makes his country great, the beautiful landscapes, the wonderful art, the exquisite cuisine. He means Gregs. Exploring Englishness was a finalist

at the Dorchester Literary Festival this year and it makes for a great Christmas year. The book is £20,000 and available directly from the publisher, ginger pop publishing. Go to www. grapoppublishing.com.com com.com. and order your copy in time for Christmas.

Just be aware, the only ship to UK addresses. That's certainly the view that we've come to on this show talking to different doctors and experts in the field. But from, you know, you mentioned economics. Is it not the job of the government to recognize that an economic impact that leads to an economic downturn that leads to people being unemployed also has consequences on people's well-being, on the number of people who die, on the number of people who sadly commit suicide,

all of those things surely must be taken into account when these political decisions are being made. Well, it should be. I mean, you're quite right that the economic cost of the policy, which is very considerable includes obviously people losing their jobs, people losing their livelihoods, and a lot of mental harm. So it's not just some abstract thing. It has a mental health cost as well as the economic cost.

They go together. Lord Lawson, what do you think... No, it's absolutely fine. Lord Lawson, what do you think is going to be the economic picture for us when we finally emerge out of lockdown? Do you think it's going to be very similar to a 1930-style scenario with a great depression, or dare I say, could it possibly be even worse?

Yeah, I don't know whether it'll be worse. if the government abandons this appalling, disastrous proposal for the Green Industrial Revolution, then it might not be worse than the 30s. It will be very bad, but the 30s were very bad too. It'll only be worse than the 30s if he goes down this Green Industrial Revolution route. You mentioned Boris Johnson and you said that you like him as a person, but you have concerns about some of his policies. There was a broader question we wanted to ask you,

because the government you were part of with Margaret Thatcher at its helm is a government that will be hated by many people who watch the show and it will be loved by many people who watch the show. But neither the people who hated that government nor the people who loved it could possibly deny that it was a government made up of the the big beast of politics. Margaret Thatcher, yourself and dozens of others, and people, frankly, on opposite benches who were equally significant political figures in this country at the time. Do you feel that we have the same caliber of politician as we did in your time in government?

Well, it's difficult for me to be objective, obviously. But I think it was a good era for the quality of politicians, the good ministers, and but there you go. I mean, that always fluctuates, doesn't it? It does, but surely you look at the caliber of politicians being produced by both ends of the spectrum, and they both appear to be weak, lacking in character, vigor, etc., etc. Do you not find?

Well, you said that. I would be argued with you. But the thing also is that Margaret Thatcher was a very fine leader, which helped a great deal. But not just that you were saying, I think, or maybe Constantine was that, that people loved her but they also hated her clearly until right at the end anyway

the majority of the people supported her I mean she wouldn't have won three general elections on the trot if the people as a whole had not approved of her and her government no of course my point was slightly different

what I was saying was even people who hated her, who I absolutely accept your point, were in the minority, none of them would have questioned the caliber of politician that she was. Whereas today, I think there are, frankly, there are politicians who I like and agree with whose caliber leaves a lot to be desired because they seem to be the best of what's on offer. And that seems to be a concern to many people that we don't have the big beast of politics anymore and the conviction politicians are very few and far between. Well, that may be so, but there are some individuals able. The present chancellor, well, is very young.

I think is very able indeed. And what have you thought of Boris Johnson's leadership? I mean, he has come to power at a time of national crisis. one of the biggest challenges this country certainly has faced, certainly since the Second World War. How have you perceived his leadership to be? He's very likable, and that means that people like it.

And that's how he managed to win a large majority in the last election. Some people will call it charisma. In fact, that's a fancy name for being likable. and he also is a sucker for big projects you remember this ridiculous bridge over the Thames he wanted to build when he was

mayor of London and any big projects he is a sucker for and the problem now is he's come up with the granddaddy of all big projects and the fact that it is totally un-economic. And it's an economic, not in the sense that the cost to the tax bill be enormous,

to the cost to everybody's electricity bills, even if it can be done, which is not clear. The cost of everybody's electricity bills, their heating bills, their cars and so on. will be completely unaffordable. And that's why no other country in the world is doing it, so it does beg the question, then why is he doing it? Is it purely ego? Is it because he genuinely believes in this project?

Why do you think the reasons are? Well, you have to ask him. But why do I think? I think he gets swept away by the idea of this, as the French, which calls them, Grand Portier, and he doesn't bother about the cost or the economics or anything like that. So it is very important that his colleagues talk him out of this before he feels that he's got in too deep and can't extricate himself.

To make a small, a smaller example of this, is HS2, which is not his project, but it is a big project, and it is immensely costly, not as big as this Green Industrial Revolution. and the costs get higher and higher each time they're revised. And there's no economic case for Asian students too at all. But the feeling is too often that once you have already invested in a lot of money in a project,

you can't stop it, otherwise the money is wasted. That is foolish in the extreme. Once you've taken a wrong decision, then you need to stop it. You don't go on just because you took a wrong decision in the past, and have spent a lot of money on it. You stop digging. And you've talked, just changing tax slightly, you've talked about Boris Johnson's ponchos for grand projects. There was one you might call grand project, which was the same.

of his election in 2019, which was, of course, getting Brexit done. What is your view of where we are now with Brexit? Because frankly, Francis insisted that we talk about it with you, whereas I am sort of, I think, more where most of the public are at the moment, where it's been, has become a third-rate issue in many people's minds, although, of course, it is very important. Where are we with Brexit and what do you see happening with that? Are we heading towards no deal? I've always thought that no deal would be the outcome. There is no way that the European Union want to see us have anything that is remotely like a good deal. And that's not because they're anti-British. It's because there is a lot of I lived in the European Union for nearly 20 years,

and it is not because they want to do down Britain as such. It is that there is a lot of disaffection with the European Union in many parts of the European Union. And they feel that if we get out and thrive, that will be an example to other countries who might do the same and things might collapse so they want to make sure that there's no way we can come out of it

in a way that we certainly I would find acceptable and there's nothing wrong with no deal No deal means that we trade on World Trade Organization, WTO terms, which is perfectly acceptable. And that is how we do most of our trades, trade outside the European Union. And we have no trade agreement, for example, with the United States. And we trade on a very large scale with the United States. We trade, we will continue to trade either the WTO terms. And that's how most of the world's trade is conducted.

But surely, Lord Lawson, this is going to have a hugely detrimental impact on our economy. It's going to cause widespread disruption. We've had Matthew Paris on the show who said that no deal was going to be disastrous. But you disagree with this? Yes, completely. I don't think Matthew Paris, although he's a most entertaining journalist, is that's a great knowledge of economics

the if we have noting how we do economically is going to be dependent on how well we conduct our economic policy which is a matter for us

outside is European Union I mean self-government is not a terrible thing you know we gave self-government to huge numbers of countries within the British Empire, Commonwealth, as you like. And it is astonishing, and this was commended that we gave them to self-government.

It's very odd that people don't think we're capable of governing ourselves. would you would you deny that there would be a lot of disruption though i mean short-term disruption can be a reasonable price to pay for for long-term outcomes that you want would you accept that a no deal would be bad in that sense at least in the short term well there'll be some disruption certainly but that's not serious and of course don't forget that we would no longer have to pay the massive annual subscription we have to pay to be members of the European Union. That seems to have become forgotten, but it is very substantial. You remember at the beginning of the Fetcher government, there was a great negotiation.

In fact, it started under Labour. It was Jim Callahan, who to begin with, said that we are paying a quite excessive subscription to the European Union. He didn't get anywhere. Marlborough Fatcher took up the baton, and she did get a rebate agreed. But it's only a partial rebate. We're still net contributors to the rest of the European Union on a large scale. So that has to be offset, not having to continue. That needs to be offset against the short-term disruption. Are you tired of using bulky old wallets?

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and use that code, which it will not surprise you, is also trigger. The EU projects, many people have said it's fundamentally doomed because of the inequality between North and South, and particularly the Euro. What is your opinion on that? Yeah, well, that is actually a fundamental point for European League. It's actually a political project, almost entirely a political project. and it began the idea

began a long time ago with Jean-Oenet then the idea is an economic means to secure a political union now that's fair enough if you want to be

part of a political union but we edited it the time under the misunderstanding that it was just an economic project in fact it was called in those states for common market.

And progressively the European, the political nature of the European Union, which is not disreputable, but I just don't share it. And the British have never shared it makes it wrong for this country and unacceptable of this country, which the people of this country decided in the referendum. I remember a long time ago, I knew a leader of the Labour Party who died before he could become Prime Minister, Hugh Gates called. And he was passionately opposed to British membership of the European communities, I think it was called in those days, on precisely this ground, because it was a political

project, not an economic project at all, and a political project which is not what we in this country want to be part of. So as far as you're concerned, we're heading towards no deal, and that's fine, and that's where we were going to get to anyway. Well, I think that we could sign a deal, but it would be a very bad. deal. That's the only one that our negotiators of the other side of the table will offer us. And so I think that we will most likely end with no deal, which is better than a bad deal. And indeed, it's the only way that we can secure our freedom and independence and have a warm close relationship with them. No hostility. We have a warm and close relationship with the United States,

but that doesn't mean to say we want to be part of the United States. And what would you see, Lord Lawson, as a future of the euro? Do you think it's ultimately a currency that can survive and thrive, or do you think that it's in its death now? Well, it's certainly not thriving. But it's a moment, of course, all attention is focused on the pandemic. But Europe is certainly not a thriving currency at all, but I think that it creates problems for a number of countries, Italy in particular, in the European Union. And we decided not to join. the euro which was absolutely right but of course it means we have even less influence on any european union decisions than other countries because what happens in the european union the way

decisions are taken is that they have a meeting first of the euro group the group of countries in the European Union who have adopted the euro as their currency and they reach a conclusion and once that conclusion is reached that is a majority in the European Council and so we have no influence whatsoever we've never had a great deal of influence within the European Council but it has greatly diminished almost to zero following the the coming of the Europe and the Euro group, which is an inbuilt majority and doesn't need to concern itself with countries

should have not adopted the Europe, including the United Kingdom. And Lord Lawson, we are obviously leaving, and I mean, that has been a palava, but we're finally leaving the European Union next year. Do you think that's going to be the start of a domino effect with more and more countries leaving the EU? Depends how we conduct ourselves.

How successfully the greater the success of the United Kingdom outside the European Union, the more tempting it will be for the people of other countries to say, well, we might do that. And if we make a mess of things, of course, then it will be less likely that other countries will wish to follow our example. But I very much hope we won't make a measure of things. There's no reason why we should.

And as I said, we will be free from having to make this massive annual contributions or annual subscription to the European Union coffers. Lord Lawson, if you look back to that election or the referendum, I should say, in 2016, and you see all the turmoil that has happened in this country, the arguments, the fact that it's a highly divisive issue, do you still think that having that referendum was the right thing to do for the UK? Absolutely. There's no way we could extract ourselves from the European Union without having a referendium for British people.

It's such a big constitutional matter that it needed referent. I'm not in favour of frequent referendums. But on this issue, that was the only way we could get out. It was ironic that, of course, we would never. had the referendum. David Cameron would not have held a referendum if he hadn't been convinced that the inns would win.

But that was not the case, fortunately. Let me ask you a theoretical question, if I may. Taking all of these issues together, the pandemic at the moment, seeing Brexit through the economic challenges to do with lockdowns, and with the pandemic as well. How do you think the government that you were part of, as I said, spearheaded by Margaret Thatcher with you as Chancellor and others, how would you have dealt with

the current situation that we find ourselves in as a country? Well, if you mean first of all dealing with the pandemic, I think that it is medically very difficult, but I think that we have to get the financial situation, the deficit and the debt two, mainly the deficit, because if you can gradually eliminate the deficit, then the debt burden stops increasing. It's still there, but stops increasing, and that's crucial. I think we'd have to do that, and I think we'd have to do it by, a form of vigour or austerity,

which is in the short term uncomfortable, but it is sometimes necessary. I don't think that just printing more and more money is a solution. I just is building up more problems. And of course, you abandon crazy problems. projects in particular of which the Green Industrial Revolution, so called, is the craziest. And if we ever do embark on it, which this government seems determined to, or at least the Prime Minister seemed determined to, that will be the biggest disaster and will tend to.

but as I say, I hate to do because I've always been. Lord Lawson. My nature. Lord Lawson, before we do our last question, there was something that I wanted to ask you. So I grew up in the 80s and the 90s. If you look back at your government, what are the things that you are most proud of

when you look back at the Thatcher government, of the changes that you implemented, things that you did, ways that you moved this country forward? Well, I think the most important thing was turning the economy around. Britain, when we came into office, was a basket case. And that's probably why we won the 1979 election. It wasn't because anybody was swayed by what we were saying.

It was just because the economy was in such a mist. with strikes all the time, huge industrial unrest, and an economy which is regarded with pity by countries around the world. And we turned it completely round, and at the end, we'll regard as an example of how to conduct economic policy successfully. And that increased our influence considerably and there were a whole lot of things which were classical economic policy may be but there are also other things which we were complete innovators and subsequently other countries have copied us for example privatisation nobody had ever heard of privatisation in fact there wasn't a word for it when we entered office we embarked on a massive privatisation campaign

which improved the working of the economy considerably and led to other countries around the world, copying us, following us, and there were privatisation policies in Kain and force in most countries of the Western world. And the main thing was the successful conduct of economic policy of the economy and trade union reform, incident, was part of that necessary process.

And as you say, we became an example to the rest of the world. And Lord Lawson, on the flip side as well, what were the mistakes that you thought you made in government? Because every government makes mistakes and yours was no different. What were the things looking back that you now go, we got that wrong or we handled that badly. Before Lord Lawson answers, can I just say Vladimir Putin's government has never made any mistakes? Well, it's not that we never have mistakes, but we forget them or learn from them.

But I can't tell you this after this lapse of time, which, what the mistakes were, every government makes mistakes, and kept, of course, Mr. Putin's. And if you can bother to read my memoirs, you will find I acknowledge mistakes there in the memoirs. And I genuinely can't remember what they were now. Plus is greatly outweigh the minuses. How very convenient. That is the best game. out of jail free card I've ever heard in my life, Lord Lawson.

Lawson, it's been an absolute pleasure to have you on the show. We know you watch the program from time to time, and that is a big honor for us to have you as a guest here. Before we let you go, we should, of course, say everyone should read your memoirs. But tell us, what is, in your opinion, other than the Green Industrial Revolution, because I feel like you've stuck the boot in on that one pretty hard today,

other than that one issue, what is the one thing that no one is talking about that we really should be? Well, I'm sorry to be a ball, but I think that dwarfs, that eclipse everything else at the present time. And I am, as I say, I am very concerned, very concerned, although I have not much longer to live. I'm concerned about this country. and of course, I have children and grandchildren. So I do care about the future. But I'm sure that if there were anything else, you would have raised it. Your confidence is extremely misplaced, Lord Lawson,

but we thank you for it nonetheless. It's been an absolute pleasure speaking with you. We hope you at home have enjoyed it as well, and we will see you very soon with another brilliant episode. Take care, see you soon, guys. Thank you and bye-bye.