TRIGGERnometry - Mark Normand: "Stop Taking Comedy Seriously!"

Episode Date: October 13, 2022

SPONSOR: Better Help - online counselling and therapy - 10% off first-month https://BetterHelp.com/TRIGGER Mark Normand is an American stand-up comedian and host of the podcasts, 'Tuesdays with Stories' and 'We Might be Drunk'. Mark's latest comedy special, 'Out to Lunch', is free to watch here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDolNU89SXI Join our exclusive TRIGGERnometry community on Locals! https://triggernometry.locals.com/ OR Support TRIGGERnometry Here: https://www.subscribestar.com/triggernometry https://www.patreon.com/triggerpod Bitcoin: bc1qm6vvhduc6s3rvy8u76sllmrfpynfv94qw8p8d5 Music by: Xentric | [e-mail] | https://www.xentricapc.com/ | Channel ID: UCo_8zzSxKeL3arKWVuP8wdQ Buy Merch Here: https://www.triggerpod.co.uk/shop/​​​ Advertise on TRIGGERnometry: [e-mail] Join the Mailing List: https://www.triggerpod.co.uk/sign-up/​​​ Find TRIGGERnometry on Social Media:  https://twitter.com/triggerpod​​​ https://www.facebook.com/triggerpod​​​ https://www.instagram.com/triggerpod​​​ About TRIGGERnometry:  Stand-up comedians Konstantin Kisin (@konstantinkisin) and Francis Foster (@francisjfoster) make sense of politics, economics, free speech, AI, drug policy and WW3 with the help of presidential advisors, renowned economists, award-winning journalists, controversial writers, leading scientists and notorious comedians. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is Euphoria Calvin Klein, the new elixir collection, featuring three perfume intense scents, inspired by a unique orchid accord, paired with vanilla, each with its own distinct attitude, each with its own universe, bold elixir, sensual, woody, addictive, magnetic elixir, sweet and romantic like a lingering touch, solar elixir, a radiant expression of joy, ultra-concentrated for amplified impact and lasting power. Find your euphoria. Discover the Euphoria Elixir Collection by Calvin Klein. I had a woman once after a show, she goes, I liked your set, but I can't tell if you're right or left. And I was like, good.

That's a good thing. I'm just being funny. I don't know if I want to take this mantle of like, truth-saying comedian, you're a prophet. You got to get out there and say the truth for the people. I'm like, oh, I got like dick jokes. That's the other thing that's annoying. It's like, not only should this stop, it should cease to exist.

Yeah. And you're like, well, that's a little Trumpy. That's a little fascisty or whatever. it doesn't feel like it's really about justice as much as it is about the joy of ruining and taking down somebody. That's what was the most sinister part of it. That's the other ironic thing. It's like defund the police, but they're very police-like. You know, hey, don't say this, don't do that.

You got out of line. We got to hit you over the head. It's very police-like. We cater to that one quiff who was upset about the wheelchair joke. And like, I've seen stuff where they're like no fat jokes. and a guy's like, I'm 400 pounds. My whole act is fat jokes. You're trying to be progressive and a good guy,

but you're telling me what I can't say, what makes me feel better, how I get over my pain. This is how I relieve, you know? I feel better with the jokes. And they're like, yeah, it's no good. And it's like, so you're like a dictator. Hey, Francis, do you like locals? I live in London, mate.

So obviously not. The only pleasure I get from the locals is when we share an intimate moment as we watch a Japanese tourists get trapped in a tube door. That is good. But I wasn't talking about the locals, I was talking about our community on locals. You mean the one where you get phenomenal behind the scenes content

when you... When you get to ask incredible guests like Jordan Peterson, Brett Weinstein, Bill Burr, Sam Harris, Adam Carolla, Heather Hying and others your questions? Not just that, you can get supporter-only benefits like trigonometry mugs, monthly calls with other top supporters and even a regular meal with me and Francis. You also get phenomenal behind-the-scenes footage of our trip to America where we met a whole host of incredible guests and gave ourselves terminal indigestion.

We're also starting to do monthly giveaways for locals only. The first one will be signed copies of Andrew. new book. Plus, you get access to an incredible community of like-minded people who share memes, have fun conversations, and most importantly, you get to make new friends. You can support us with as little as $7 or about £5 a month, or give us more for the higher tier benefits. Go to trigonometry.com. Go to trigonometry.com and support the show. and welcome to Trigonometry on the road from the USA. I'm Francis Foster.

I'm Constantine Kission. And this is a show for you if you want honest conversations with fascinating people. Our brilliant guest today from the New York leg of the trip is a fantastic comedian. Mark Norman, he's looking around for him. Welcome to Trigonometry, brother. Hey, good to be here.

I said before it looks like the game of clue. This is so nice and the chair is great. I mean, this is a sweet pad. Yeah, well, thank you to our anonymous, who let us stay here and use this space. We're big fans of his, he knows who he is. Jeffrey Epstein. Exactly.

Back from the dead. But listen, man, it's good to have you on the show. You're crushing it at the moment. You're a brilliant comic. For those people in our audience who are not familiar with you, who are you, who are you, where you are what's been your journey through life? Sure, I'm a stand-up comedian out of New York City. I've been doing it for 16 years or so.

I've been on multiple shows and whatnot, and currently on the road like crazy, trying to get an hour together, multiple podcasts. You've seen me on the Rogans, the tonight shows, you name it, Netflix. And it's nice to be here with you, chaps. This is great. I want to have sex with you. This place is so, that couch. Francis, you take on that part of it. It's been a while, Mark.

So come on, jump on board, brother. All right, I'll pop that hymen. But this place just gets you horned up. I want to get a model in here and do coke off her ass. Anyway, that's enough about our producer. It's good, man. It's good. It's lovely to have you on, Mark. So how is it, like, what's the comedy scene like at the moment? How has it been after the craziness of the past few years?

Has it returned to normal? I think so, yeah. I think we're back. I think people need comedy. I think it's actually helped comedy because, let's be honest. a lot of shit got weird with the pandemic, political, and this and that. And I think there's a big divide in what the media and news is saying, or like when Biden comes out and says a thing, versus what everyone's actually feeling.

And I think comedy slid right into that gap and fisted it. You know, I think a lot of, that's why comedy's so popular right now. Podcasts are so popular. Because everybody's like, this I get, you know, like listening. But when Biden's like, hey, check it out, gas prices drop, this and that, and then you go check, and they haven't dropped. They're like, well, that's weird.

Then a comic goes out there, and he's like, hey, these gas prices are higher than Hunter Biden. It's like, yeah, yeah, that's true. And I think that's where comedy and podcast slid in, and that's why they're so popular. Yeah, and look, there's a lot of people talking about this, particularly in the UK, there's a problem, like, you know, with freedom and speech and comedy, you can say this,

but you can't say this. If you make this joke, you're going to be canceled. You know, you're someone who's doing phenomenally well. What's your take on all this? Well, I think it's a little bit of a bummer, you know, because there's two camps. One, like an Andrew Schultz, you know, funny guy, comedian, he's like, all this outrage is great, because then we get to say crazy shit and everybody loves it. And it's hugely popular and you can make a bunch of money, which is true.

But when it gets scary is when we have this society set up where nowadays being called a bigot is like the worst thing you'd be called and you can lose your job or some kind of whatever is ostracized from society, be labeled. And then you become radioactive. So I hate when they go, hey, you can say whatever you want. I get to say whatever I want. That's free speech. I'm like, yeah, I get it. But I was making a joke about gay people or whatever. and from no place of hate, just whatever,

then you call me a homophob, but you don't know me. So I was making a joke, you're directly attacking me and casting these, you know, bigoted things on to me that I'm not. So it's not really the same. So you're kind of trying to ruin my life where I was making a joke and then you're the hero, you're the good guy at the end of this? Like this dude or lady comedian is like losing their job and you get homophobic.

And you're like, but that's just what you assumed and you don't even know me. So that part is where I get pissed. Yeah, and it's, there's this remarkable thing that's happened in the last few years where people take jokes and take them as literal statements of fact. That's crazy. Morgan Murphy, funny comedian, she tweeted once,

before Twitter, I didn't know my jokes had answers. And that sums it all up, you know? You're like, yeah, yeah. And then Bill Burr has that great moment. when he's on a morning show, and they saw his show last night, and they're questioning him like, yeah, I got to say, didn't you think the Catholic joke, pedophile jokes, were a little far?

And he goes, don't you think the priest went a little too far? It's like, you're attacking the guy making the joke, not the guy diddling. Right. And that's where we're at. Yeah. Well, we've sort of brought into this idea that words are like really important. Yes, yes.

And actions, you know, actually, like if you're attacking people and trying to end their careers, because they said some words, you're the fucking good guy. Right, right. Well, it's very easy to attack through your computer and I actually have to do anything. And it's like the WNBA. It's so unfair, it's sexist.

And you're like, well, then go to the games. Go support them. But you'd rather bitch and moan about how everybody's evil, except for you. So, yeah, I think it's easy. You made the interesting point before we started, though, which was you actually feel completely free to say what you think on stage with a microphone.

Yeah. It's once you get on social media, that actually your freedom is restricted. Yeah, yeah. Because, you know, they, some guy or gal owns Instagram. So it's up to them. It's a private thing. Which also gets murky because they're like, hey, Trump or Marjorie Taylor Green, you're off Twitter. You're causing whatever. Your opinions are damaging or mean. So you're off Twitter. And everybody goes, well, that's fucked up. What happened to free speech? And they go, well, it's a private company. They can do whatever they want. You're like, we'll tell that to the bakery that wouldn't sell a gay cake. How come they can't do what they want? You know, and I'm not saying you shouldn't sell a gay cake, but I'm saying you got mad at them. And so now they're mad at you.

Basically, you're both the same. And you don't even realize that you're mirroring each other and you're fucking extremists. And, you know, I think it's a big cause of modernity. We have so much now. You know, like we used to be scared. We used to have raids in classrooms where they'd play this noise. and then you all got onto your desk because the Russians might be bombing.

When that's going on, you're not worried about pronouns. You know, you're like, shit, we could be bombed right now. And now we have shooters. And we're still like, can you believe that he said, retard in 1978? It's just, we got it pretty good. Now, we got Uber Eats. Yeah.

You just sit at home and get food delivered and shoved in our fat faces. And so we're like, hmm, I need something. I need to, like, get my blood pumping. Hey, this guy is in blackface in the four. You know, sorry, I'm rambling. No, no. Rambling's good.

Okay. Yeah, no, it's, I think there's a lot to be said for that. The fact that, you know, people get upset by jokes. Yeah. Before the pandemic, I was doing, you know, gigging six nights a week on the London circuit, doing all these big clubs. And I remember, like, I started to get curious about all of this stuff. And I remember asking all the club owners in London going,

have complaints gone up? Every single one of them said yes by a huge amount. That's interesting. You know, what has happened that people listen to a joke and suddenly go, not only do I not like it, which is your right,

it's your right not to laugh, absolutely it is, but it's also their right to go and demand that that person not be booked again at a club or not have, or just not say that joke.

Right, right. Yeah, that's the other thing that's annoying. Like, not only should this stop, it should cease to exist. Yeah. And you're like, well, that's a little Trumpy. That's a little fascisty or whatever. Like, you're this dictator.

Hey, get rid of it. It's offensive. But like, to who? And then we do this thing where I'll do like a black room and it kills. The jokes killed. And I'll do a white room. And they're like, that's offensive to black people. I'm like, well, tell the 200 people the black people laughing.

Man, that is exactly what I found. Like, I used to have a bunch of jokes about me having dark skin and people thinking I'm, from Pakistan and all of that shit. And he was always ethnic minority rooms where that went down really well. And it was always the guilty white people. They'd be like, ugh. Exactly.

Every time. So isn't that a little fucked up? You're speaking for them? It's this weird soft racism. Hey, they can't handle that. That's a little over the line, whatever. And you're like, they haven't been through so much and you're worried about this joke

about not being able to swim. You know? What are we doing here? Yeah. So there's a lot of weird soft. bigotry of like, we'll handle this, they're brown, let us do it. And you're like, well, how come that's not offensive? But then Megan the joke was. And I think the joke thing, to your point, is just,

I think it's a young, a generational thing. I think younger people maybe, they grew up with this online outrage and like, we got to stop this, we got to stop that. And so then they see it in real life, and they weren't ready for it. They're like, whoa, I can't believe it. We should do something.

You know, because everybody's living on a pillow right now. You know, and so when you go out into the real world and hear a joke about fucked up shit, But it's heavy. It's like, whoa, I didn't see that coming. And you can't pick what a comic says. Everything else in life is catered now. Tinder, it's like, oh, not ugly, fat, tall, gay, whatever.

Even your meal, I don't want gluten, dairy, whatever. But then you go to a comedy show and it's all fresh. And you're like, whoa, I didn't pick this. And you don't have control. You don't have control. They like control. These people complain, they like control. And we've always had these people.

Sure. But it definitely has upped. But we've never given them a megaphone before. That's the difference, right? That too. And not only do we, they not have a megaphone, but now we listen. We cater to that one quiff who was upset about the wheelchair joke. And I've seen stuff where they're like, no fat jokes.

And a guy's like, I'm 400 pounds. My whole act is fat jokes. And they're like, yeah, but. And he's like, so now you're trying to be progressive and a good guy, but you're telling me what I can't say, what makes me feel better, how I get over my pain. this is how I relieve, you know, I feel better with the jokes. And they're like, yeah, it's no good. And it's like, so you're like a dictator.

Like, I can't do my own fat. This is my act. Ah, that's crazy. Yeah, and what these people don't seem to understand is that it's by joking about these things. It's cathartic. Yes, it actually brings us together. Yeah, absolutely. Like, the people who've got the darkest sense of humor are always the people who work, like, you know, if you've ever been out with medics,

Those people's sense of humor is fucked up I'm like, look, that's too dark for me Yes, teachers, HR people You hang out with an HR person You're doing heroin I mean, they go all in They wear a clan hood and at home And all kinds of stuff

So like, look at Cosby That's the inverse of that, you know I'm the America's Dead You know, sweater and family man Pull your pants up Meanwhile, off hours It's a Spike Drink pants down Yeah, you get it

But the thing is, it's so true. The thing is, and that really pisses me off, right? And we were on Ryan Long's podcast, and we made the same point, which is, when did comics start censoring other comics? Yeah, that hurts. That hurts. Because you know what we're doing. You know, Shane Gillis, for example, he got in trouble saying an Asian racial slur in a podcast as a joke, and they went hard on them. And you're like, and it's so sad to see the comics tweeting. You know what he's trying to do. He's not a bad guy. He's not a racist.

Like, that really... I get the soccer mom or the religious weirdo, and you're like, all right, you know, you guys. But the comics, that's when I was like, oh, things are different now. Yeah, man. That was the thing that totally shocked me, realizing that actually, certainly in the UK, a lot of comedians are on board with this.

And you actually find a lot of them at the forefront. They're actually fucking leaked. Right. They're at the front with the flag. Yeah. That hurts. Yeah. I thought we were a group.

Right. I thought we were like, there was some camaraderie here. But once that happens, that's when I got scared. I was like, oh, geez, I've said crazy shit to comedians because I thought that's what we did. You know, the Holocaust, that wasn't real. And now you do that's the wrong guy and you're like, he goes out and he goes, so Mark Norman doesn't think the holler, and you're like, wait, what? That's why it's a joke because it's so crazy.

But this is what happens in green rooms, right? right, is everybody's just trying to outdo each other with the most ridiculous, outrageous shit ever. And that was supposed to be the thing. That's kind of the bond, right? In many ways, like, the comedy club is such a beautiful space to be. That's one of the things I really liked about stand-up is you've got people from every background, and there's something they've got in common that overrides anything.

Yes. Which is we've all been on stage, we've all done this thing. Right. And part of it is the dark sense of humor that comedians tend to share backstage. backstage. Of course, of course. And then to have someone backstage who could be a bad guy, you're like, well, this is scary again. Like now I feel like I'm hanging out in the teacher's lounge. Right. You know, we used to all just be, fuck up student, you know, play around people. And now it's like, can I say this around him? Is he going to take it too? So it's a bummer.

It's a bummer. And those people are rarely funny. You know, so it almost seems like there's some weird way for them to like win again. Like, I'll take you down, funny guy, and I'll be up. And you're like, all right, shit. Do you think we exaggerate this at some point? Like, are you restricted in doing comedy yourself? Do you feel that you are having to not say certain things and not make certain jokes? A little, but I've luckily been doing this long enough that I've kind of cultivated my own people.

Like, when I do shows, I have random openers, and they'll be like, dude, your crowd is awesome. I can't do this shit over here. And I'm like, yeah, yeah, it took a while, but I got my people. by putting out shit on my page and my YouTube and all that. So I used to, for sure. When you're the new guy, you got to play ball. You got to kind of get in line and find your people and kill, but not offend anybody. And then eventually you graduate to, I mean, look at like a Bill Burr or Ricky Jervais or Chappelle

can say whatever they want. And sure, people don't like it, but just don't go see him. That's what I don't get. Like, I do think there are people who go, oh, comedy, it's this place I can say the N-word and scream it out and I'll be safe because it's protected by the rules of comedy and free speech and you're like, yeah, yeah, but you're still being

a dick and just saying crazy shit to say crazy shit. I still think it has to be funny and I still think if you do say fucked up shit, you won't have a career. Right. You might get some weirdo fans that are like psychos that are like, that's my guy, he says what I'm thinking. And you could have them. So I think they punish themselves

because a lot of people are worried If you give out free speech and protect these comedians, they'll just say like white supremacy shit, which, you know, could happen, but that person is going to have, they're never going to be supported by... How many comedians is the white supremacist community produced? Not a lot, right? Well, it depends who you're asking me. Yeah, that's true. This episode is sponsored by Better Help. Hey, Constantine, do you want better mental health?

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It's really important to have someone impartial who you can talk to about the tricky issues that you're struggling to deal with. Therapy has played a really important role in helping me to deal with my ADHD and become better in all areas of my life. Why is he telling them how weak he is? Drink vodka, feel.

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at BetterHelp.com forward slash trigger especially if they're not real men. That's B-E-T-E-R-H-E-L-P dot com slash trigger. I guess what I'm saying as well as this is your point that you made so well is comedy is very self-regulating. Yes. It's an ecosystem. A comedian, even some deluded weirdo that went on stage and said the N-word, they would very quickly find out. Yes. That is not what the audience is there for.

Exactly. In our society now, that's the thing. That's why I don't understand a lot of these ideas about we've got to restrict comedy because otherwise everyone's going to be out there dropping the N-bomb. Because they ain't. They ain't? Because it'll police itself. Right. That's what happens. Stop laughing. The crowd won't laugh. The bookers won't book you. It's just that's how that works. Exactly.

But what you're saying is also very true, which is the people who are super successful, you don't have to, like, that's why people go, well, there's no problem of free speech and comedy. Look at Ricky Jervais. Look at, yeah, there is a free speech if you're Ricky Javis. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you've got to get there. But you've got to get there. And so as you were the new guy, you felt you had to, you know, make sure you didn't cross too many lines.

Sure, sure. I would go, this happened. with a black guy, I change to a white guy, you know, just to get by, you know. And even now I'll have a joke about a black guy, my car got stolen and I caught the guy, black guy, whatever. So I bring that up in the joke, you're like, that's fucked up. And I'm like, that's what happened. Get mad at reality or get mad of that guy. You're feeling my car. Like, I'm just painting a picture with the joke and people say, why does he have to be black? I'm like, well, I can use this later for a joke setup, you know? It's comedy. I'm trying to set something up here.

And you need all the details for the joke to work. So it's just shit like that. Like I have school shooting jokes. And you're like, what do you promote school shootings? And I'm like, no, they happen. So I write about them. That's it. They stop trying to read into this evil shit.

And that's what really bugs me about the canceling or whatever you want to call it is. It doesn't feel like it's really about justice as much as it is about the joy of ruining and taking down somebody. That's what was the most sinister part of it. It's not really about, it's like, We got one. Yeah. It's not about, it feels like sport hunting. Right.

If you shoot this buck and eat it, I get it. But if you just shoot this buck and walk away, that's pretty fucked up. And that feels like what the cancel shit sometimes is. It's like, we got this guy, we got this guy. And you're like, but what did that do? Yeah. You just ruined it and you feel better because your life is sad and you're bankrupt of any joy. So you ruined someone else and maybe it gave you a jolt of happiness for a second, but you're not the good guy. You're mean as shit. That's so scary and gross. And yet they like to present themselves as being incredibly virtuous. I know.

Whilst they literally ruining people's lives in careers. I know. They hold up the dead animal. They go, look, this was me. I got it. And I think eventually it comes out in the wash. I know a lot of people who've been that guy who called out whatever people. And now their lives of a couple years go by and you realize you have nothing to offer. You're just talentless. and everything fills it away once, you know, shit simmer down a little bit.

So there is that. But I don't know. Like, in the name of good is, like, look, it's good. We got the Harvys, the Cosby's, the Epstein. These guys are all horrific and whatever, monsters. But like, these little ones, like, you hear, I have a friend. He's like a CEO of some company, not comedy. And he was at a meeting with all his employees.

And he goes, how are the numbers on that whatever sale? Vicki and she goes, great, we got the sale. And he goes, that a baby? Yeah, all right, we got it, whatever. Two days later, HR goes, Vicki's got a problem. She's upset. He's like, what happened? He goes, you called her baby.

And he's like, well, I was saying like, that a baby? Yeah, you know, like an expression. And they were like, yeah, you said baby. And he's like, this is my company. What the hell is going on? And then you're like, should I fire her? Well, she might sue me. And then she might write an article, you know, and you're like,

What are we doing? The company's going great and we got to deal with this fucking shit. It's like, it's not even reality anymore. Yeah. And then you tell people about and they roll their eyes, but then you're like, well, tell that to the internet when she posts the whatever and then here we are. Yeah. And I get it.

Women go through hell and there's sexual harassment and all that. That stuff does exist, but it's like, we got to be realistic here. We got to live in some sort of normal world where you can't just take this baby I don't know. It's just sad that that's how we're living. Like we have to sidestep over these retards who are like, oh, you said this. You're like, I know, but shut the fuck up. And that's where we need that Russian bomb raid to come in. You know, like, oh, you called me baby.

Boom, the bomb comes down. You're like, that's what you were worried about? You ever seen that old meme where the guy's laying in bed? And he's like, I wish I had tweeted more than he dies. And you're like, what are we doing? We got one life. We're wasting it on this horses shit. Yeah.

Do you know what it is? like you saying we don't live in the real world anymore. And there's such a profound point because with the internet, no one lives in the real world anymore. Right, right. But the problem is the internet can have repercussions into the real world. Exactly. You know?

Exactly. So it starts to feed back. And now the culture that was created on the internet is now affecting people in the real world. Yeah. Do you find that the upside, I suppose, is it gives you something to push back against with your comedy? Do you talk about it? Or you just try and just be funny?

I try to talk about it on the same level that it actually affects real people. Right. Because I go all over the country, poor, middle America, whatever you want to call it, south, north. And these people have a lot less to do with the internet that we're reading and looking at. You know, we're pretty consumed with this because we have to be. We're in this world, podcast and comedy, whatever. They're not. They're raising their kids.

They're mowing the lawn. They're going to work. They hate their boss. Their mom is sick. you know, all this shit and soccer practice, whatever it is. And I don't think they're reading about every little thing and every canceling and all this. So like, I only do it, I just skim the surface of it just so they'll understand. Because they're not as deep into it as we are.

And sometimes I think we do let this shit affect us and we absorb it too much. And it definitely makes us all sad and crazier and angrier. But I only tap into it the part that affects them. Yeah. I think that's very wise because, like you said, we're marinating in this whole culture. Yes. And particularly comedians, you know, I don't know why. Well, I've got a few theories.

We seem to be at the cold face of this crap. Right, right. You know, because we've all seen our industry change right the way from when we started to where we are now. We've seen it slowly seep in. So I think we're affected by it more than most people. But here's the thing. Do you think we're more affected by it because of the industry that we're in, or do you think we're the canary in the coal mine?

Like, what's going to happen with our industry is going to seep into all the others? Ah, interesting. Well, people keep telling me, like, ah, it's changing. I can feel it changing. Like, Netflix's not getting rid of Chappelle. Spotify not getting rid of Rogan. Like, these are all good signs, you know. But to me, what blows my mind, and that's a great question.

And here's my answer. I don't know if I want to be the canary. Like, I just want to be a funny guy. I got 12 minutes on farting, you know, like, I don't know if I want to take this mantle of like truth saying comedian, you're a prophet. You got to get out there and say the truth for the people. I'm like, oh, I got like dick jokes. You know, I'm not like this save the world guy. Because if I do that, then I'm just as bad as these psychos in my own, in my version. I'm like, I don't want to, they're trying to save the world by taking down comedy special. and racism and all this, and you're like, that's great, go march, go protest. But I just don't want to, I just want to do my work and be left alone.

Yeah. That's my thing. So maybe we are the Canary in the Cold Minds, but I don't know if I want to be that guy. And not in a selfish way, I just never was. I grew up watching Ellen, Seinfeld, Chris Rock, and you just told funny jokes. So then you got famous and rich and you had a good life. And that's what I was hoping for. You know?

I don't want to like change the world. or whatever. And look, if things happen to change because of comics and whatever, that's great. But I don't know if we want that responsibility because that's a dangerous road to go down if you do. Burma made such a good point about this. He said, if comedy could change the world and change, generally changed the way that people thought about the world, they would have banned it. They wouldn't allow it. Well, yeah. And it would have happened by now. There's been comedy this whole time and shit's still fucked up. See, where I disagree with that is, in Russia, where I'm from, that is exactly what they did.

They banned comedy. Wow. So they obviously think it works. Whoa. I think of comedians more as icebreakers. You know, like when there's a fight at the dinner party, the little kid goes like, my diaper is soiled. And everybody goes, ah, that's funny, because it's just so out of left field. But I think of it as icebreakers.

We might tap into it and say something crazy that we're all thinking and say the truth. and everybody laughs. And then people mistake that for like, aha, he's a soothsayer. This guy's Nostradamus. He sees things that we're all seeing, but he pinpointed it. And I'm like, I don't know about that.

I was just trying to cut the tension. Yeah. You know. Yeah. It's really interesting because the role of the comedian, I think, has changed a lot. Yeah. You know, whereas before, you know,

we just used to go and watch comedy and the comedy that you used to watch was a comedy you used to watch. But now everything has become political because of that internet culture. So everything has become political, even comedy. And it's like if a comedian isn't political,

it's starting to look a bit weird. You know what I mean? I guess, but I'm not political. Yeah. But they still try to put you in a box. They go, I had a woman once after a show, she goes, I liked your set, but I can't tell if you're right or left.

And I was like, good. That's a good thing. I'm just being funny. And why are you sitting there trying to pinpoint it? Just enjoy the fucking show, you crazy coos? What are we doing here? This isn't a debate or anything? Like, what are we? Where is he at?

Like, just watch. Watch the fucking show. But that's the problem. The internet has made everything political. Every art form political. Everything is woke, anti-woke, non-woke, or whatever else. That we just get infected. We get infected.

And if you pick aside, you tend to, do better. This is what we always say because we talk about these issues a lot. And in the current climate, it's the woke left trying to cancel people on the right and it's the woke left shutting down free speech. So people then go, oh well, you must be on the right. And that would be the best thing for us to do financially. Yes. To go, we are conservative. We're not. Right. But we could do that and we'd have a shit ton more fans and a shit ton more money because then we'd be playing to a team. Yes.

Whereas we're much more interested in doing what you're talking about, which is going like, I don't want to pick a team. Yeah. I never wanted to be on a team. No, no. I want to be a team comedy. Right. Exactly.

So that's when it started. And now that we're doing the show, for me, that's the primary thing. I don't want the show to be on a team either. Right. Because both teams are going to be in power at one point. And they both need challenging. They both need questioning. That, to me, is the role of people in our space, whether it's comedy, whether it's podcasting.

Yeah. But as you say, it's much easier to pick a team. Yeah, yeah. And it's tempting, obviously, because the money rolls in and the fans roll in, but it's, I think you've got to stay the course and have some integrity and be the thing you are when you first started, you know? Like, just be that guy all the way. And if you tend to gravitate and skew from certain groups, so be it.

But you don't change. Yeah. My friend Joe List is a, he's a pretty political guy, and he always says he's a 90s liberal. Because he's like, I don't understand what's happening with the left. And he's like, I'm still a liberal, but I'm like old school. I like free speech. I like, you know, gay marriage and weed and a little less government and a little more help the people and whatever. And I'm like, yeah, that's what I am.

But it's almost become an insult to be like, oh, you're one of these right-wing guys. It's kind of like we do with racists. You know, like, oh, you're a racist, like, wait, what? What are you crazy? Like, back in the 90s, you call somebody a racist, it was like, what do he, oh, did he kill a black guy? What, what happened? Is he like this or that?

And now it's like, ah, racist, let me read the article. You know, like, they're completely taking the teeth out of that word, and that's an important word. So it's, it's, it's doing more hard and good. And look at what they tried to do to Rogan as well. It's like, he has some conversations with people. He wants to know about the vaccine, whatever. He's anti-vax.

He's far right. And it's like, and then he's like, I vote. for Bernie Sanders, I'm this, and that. And they're like, hey, whatever, you're far right. You're like, well, if we're not going to listen, this is scary. Yeah. You know, like Bill, I keep bringing up Bill Burr, but I'm a fan. But he did a Grammy award show, and he introduced a Latin artist.

And the name was all super Latiny, and he fucked it up, and he's not a good reader. I can't say this name. Natalie, Natalie, what? All right. And the winner, the Grammy goes to Natalia La Forkady. Dude, oh, I will accept on behalf of her. If I butcher the name, I'm sorry. And they're like, he's these white men with the racist, mispronouncing the name.

And one guy goes, he's not a racist. And they go, fuck, he was racist. He goes, well, you know his wife's black. And the guy wrote back like, well, some people marry black women for a fetish. And his wife eventually wrote back and wrote, shut up, bitch. And this black woman had to be like, shut the fuck up. What are you doing? And that's what we've gotten.

We can't even, no one can go, ah, good point, you got me there. That's out. So if discussion is out, we're really doomed. And I think that's what's happening. It's just about win, win, win. You know that point you made about him not being good reader? It's such a good point because I have a foreign name, right? Constantin Kiss and it's difficult for people who need to pronounce.

And a lot of these idiots who run around saying, well, if you can't pronounce someone's name, you're racist. Right, what happened one time, one of these guys, they'd just been making that argument on the show and then they brought up an article that I'd written and he'd completely butchered my name. There you go. And you could have used that. You could have gone, hey, hey, this is my chance. Yeah, and I just want you, you got my name wrong.

It's okay. It happens. Right. But these tools, these standards of like perfection now, it's like this is the thing that always bothered me with comedy is like part of the process of discovering what an offensive joke has to be like is going too far and then pulling back, right? Yes. Yes.

You try it out, it maybe goes a bit far, you rephrase it, you reword it. But if every time now that joke gets recorded and put on the internet, that changes the way that the whole thing happens, right? Of course. And isn't that the most polite way to do it? Let me go to a comedy club, see where the line is, and then I will now course correct and not go there again or go over it again. And then now I have the bit down. Now I got it. But you're just getting mad at the part where you went over to,

to figure out where it's at and now you're mad at me for trying to do the right thing in a weird way. Yeah. Chris Rock made that point a few years ago where he was talking about when he created, you know, when he was fine-tuning the routine, you know, black people versus the M-word. And he said, when I first started doing it, it was just outright racist almost. And then it took me six months before I could make that bit funny. But just imagine we're in a place, let's call it 2022, where you do that routine, someone records it, puts it out on the internet and goes, you know, Chris Rock is, you know, punching down, et cetera. Yeah, exactly. We never get to see that bit.

And that bit, you could argue, legitimately, changed comedy. It's an amazing, it's an iconic bit. I think about that joke twice a day. I like the N-word. But yeah, that's an amazing bit. And thank God he worked it out. And thank God it was in the 90s. Yeah.

I have no phones. So we talked about this stuff a lot. Other than that, I mean, you've been going a long time, 16 years. Like, what else has changed in the comedy world? What do you notice? Well, one thing I noticed was in New York. New York was like this bastion of kind of, it was like a thriving comedy scene. And when I moved here, the alt scene, as we called, I don't know if you guys have heard of this, was big.

It was like this kind of bring your notepad up, get out of the clubs, that's hacky. Or you call a guy in the front row gay. Where'd you get that shirt? I'll talk slower. New Jersey. A lot of that. And so they made this alternative scene, which was funny, a little less mean, whatever, a little wackier, a little strain, more abstract. And it was great. It was a lot of funny people. Zach Alfenakis and all these guys came out of there. Todd Barry. And they could all do clubs, but this was just becoming this kind of movement. It got very popular. Now the TV shows are picking it up. Flight of the Concordes was pretty alt-y, you know, stuff like that. And that was great because, you know, that was great. Because as a new comic, you could show up and they were a little more welcoming, you know? And it wasn't like, what is this, a straight white male? It was just, you were just a comic. And ironically, as we get more inclusive, those shows started to go away because they started making these rules.

Hey, you can't say this, can't say that. Now there's like two of them. They used to be like 50. And it's just kind of a microcosm of society. Like, hey, you got to look like this. You got to be that way. We have rules now. You can't do that.

And it just, they all just started going away one by one. And it was like this booming great way to be a comic. Like these rooms would fill up. And it was like the cool thing to do with these rooms. And now they're all gone, basically. Wow. And that should be very telling. And nobody gives a fuck.

Because everyone's like, well, I'm not starting one. And that's just how it goes. And that's what kills me. It's like, Chappelle, love them or hate him. He puts out that special The Closer. A lot of trans material. He's all on the trans thing now. And this woman at Netflix, big transitioned.

dude to woman, black guy, lady, was like, fuck him, he's a trans vote. Then people found her tweets. And it was like, fuck these trannies and these got Asian people. I'll kill an Asian motherfucker. F word, F word, whatever. And then you're like, okay, well now attack her. And they didn't. And you're like, well, why is he bad? And she's not. She's saying worse shit than him on Twitter, but they don't attack her. And that's when I get annoyed. Because I'm like, if you really believe this You should be mad at her too. Yeah, but they think comedians are powerful. This is what they think.

I guess so. They think that because you are on Netflix or because you're on a podcast or because you're on Twitter or whatever, you have power. This is the idea that because people hear, more people hear what you have to say. That means you've got to be responsible now.

It's like comedians are like no one who's met comedians thinks comedians should be role models for anyone. No, we're idiots. We're those man boys, you know, and we can barely wipe our own ass. But yeah, it's crazy, you're right, I guess. But Schultz said this, like, comedy is supposed to be wrong. Like, I just said, I love the N-word. I don't love the N-word, but that's funny because it's such a ridiculous thing.

I'm supposed to say the wrong thing. And then people go, he said he loves the N-word, and you're like, what are you doing? Are you nuts? And it's like, that old thing, are you lying or are you stupid? Which one is it? And I think they're lying. Yeah. Do you see good things about what's happening with comedy? Is there anything you're excited about?

Well, there's a lot of good comics nowadays. And comedy's very popular and it's moving tickets. I mean, I've been doing this a while and we're in a boom for sure. Really? Oh yeah, oh yeah. And you can make your own way, you have YouTube, as much as we bitch, we're doing something. You guys are making your own stuff. I made my own special, I put it on YouTube. And until YouTube starts going, hey, we got to get rid of this guy.

We gotta get rid of that gal. Then I think we're in a good place. So it sucks. All the shitty stuff sucks. My friend just made a movie with a canceled comedian. And the movie's doing great. And I'm like, so how's the back lad? He's like, we're getting a ton of it, but we just ignore it.

And I think, sadly, that's the key. Yeah. And I hate that because I try to be a nice guy. I don't want to be the offensive guy. Sure, I mean, to anybody, anything is offensive. You do a joke about a buzzsaw. Well, my wife was killed by a buzzsaw. It's like, I didn't know that.

Sorry, I wasn't trying to hurt you. So that's gonna happen. It's inevitable. But I don't want to be that guy. Like you know these comics like I walked half the room because I keep it real and you're like ugh What are you crazy? I'd like to make people laugh and all that so I try to cater my act and keep it Somewhat neutral and somewhat polite. I have trans jokes. I have gay jokes. I have black jokes but they're all Just jokes about something. It's not like mean. Yeah, I can get mean sure, but I try to keep it very on the level and then when people still attack you is you're like, make you just want to quit. Hey Francis, what do you think is the best way to advertise a business? That's easy.

All you need to do is spend shed loads of cash on an advert that's going to be promoted on a dying medium-light TV. Then simply sit back and watch all your hard-earned money disappeared down the toilet. What about advertising with Trigonometry? Why would I do that when I can advertise on ITV3 for the measly sum of 20 grand and be watched by six people. Because Trigonometry now has over 350,000 subscribers across the different platforms and gets 2 million views and downloads a month?

That's right. You can place an advert with us and we'll promote your brand on one of our episodes. Your advert will be written by two professional comedians. Yeah, that's right. We're hiring two professional comedians. When we make our ads funny and engaging to the point where some people say the ads are their favorite parts of the show. Yeah, we probably shouldn't.

admit that, mate. All you need to do is contact us on marketing at triggerpod.com. That's marketing at triggerpod.co.com.com. Advertise with us and we'll get your business cancelled. I think part of the thing is, man, and obviously as comics, we're hypersensitive to it. We're very sensitive. Right, we are. But also, it's like nowadays, if you're, like, I meet people. I was doing TV once and I met this woman. She runs a TV. charity for children and she raises money for kids. Okay. And she gets shit on the internet.

For what? What for, man? Grooming? No, no, not grooming. That's socially approved and sanctioned in the UK. Yeah, especially by the BBC. Yeah, exactly. But you know what I'm saying?

Yeah, yeah, you can't get shit. You can't avoid it. It doesn't matter. Anything you do now, someone somewhere, someone is going to be doing that. Well, yeah, somebody had a funny joke. joke, I can't remember who, but it's like, I get all these comments online, they're so mean. Then I looked up Beethoven's Fifth Symphony and it's like, this sucks, fuck this guy, he's the douche, what a fag, or whatever, and you're like, you can't win. But here's what really kills me. All we preach is like,

hey, you got to get these people's pronouns. It's insensitive. These people have feelings. And you're like, yeah, I get it. Okay. So I'll try to, I'll try to adapt. I'll try to keep up with your ever-changing system, and I try to play ball. But you calling me horrible shit, why isn't that insensitive? So they've built this system where you have carte blanche to be insanely cruel if we deem you inappropriate. But it's like, you deemed me. You got to let everyone deem me that.

And that's what's fucked up. Like, all you preach is insensitivity. But who's more insensitive than you calling someone a bigot? That's insanely, like, that hurts my feelings. You call me a racist? I'm not. You're basically calling me an ignorant, stupid person. What's more incensed? I got your pronoun wrong on accident. I'm a fucking monster. You're a monster. You're saying, you know, I have my mom, like, somebody tweeted your pedophile. I'm like,

Jesus Christ. Sorry, mom. And she's like, what the hell's going on? I'm like, eh, it's the internet. She's like, this is crazy. I'm like, it's fun seeing it from an outsider who's not involved in all this shit. And I'm like, yeah, I know, it's horrible. But I'm, and she's like, you're not bothered by this? I'm like, I'm used to it. Yeah. Which is even sadder. Yeah. So that fucking sucks. Like, I don't think these people realize how much damage they do to people's psyche and, you know, just the country.

Yeah. Have you had friends who've kind of gone through that? Yes, yes. And, you know, you apologize. I'm so sorry. It's, it's, I don't know what to do. And like, should I defend you? Don't defend me. Then you don't guilt you and they'll be mean to you.

And you're like, all right, all right. So it's just sad. It's like, you don't realize what you're doing. But you were racist. I made a joke. What are you crazy? I mean, what Gillis went through is traumatic. Yeah. Dramatic. And they go, he's fine. I'm like, how do you know he's fine? He's selling tickets. It's not about the tickets. It's about what you did to the guy's life. Two years of his life. He was like having night terrors, depressed and where's the, where's the sensitivity I keep hearing about, you know? But you deemed him inappropriate. So therefore, carte blanche.

But this is it. You know, it's like the end of the play, The Crucible, you know, where he's being. where they're going to execute him. And he says, don't touch my name. Leave my name out of this. Don't tarnish my name. My name is the only thing that I have, John Proctor's speech at the end. And it's so powerful because it's true. Because really, all that we have in many ways is our reputation.

Our reputation is a human being. And when someone says a word racist or bigot, they're tarnishing your reputation. Yeah, yeah, that's the plan. You know, and it's to discreputation. credit you. And ultimately it's dehumanizing. And these people don't seem to understand that. I know because in their bubble, they're a hero. And it's so sad because you're like, you're not and you don't get it. And you can shake their shoulders and they'll never understand.

You know, and they have that agenda. But also they don't seem to understand. Or maybe they do that when you do this to one person, it has an effect on everybody else around them. Sure, sure. No, but I think that's the entire point, isn't it? The entire point. is to control how people speak, what people joke about, etc. I guess, yeah. They're trying to shut down a lot. It's just trendy at this point too. Even if it's not about control, which maybe it is, but it's just like, this is the cool

way to be. I'm an activist or whatever the hell they tell themselves and you're like, but you're cruel. Yeah. But you could say, hey, police are cruel when they beat up a guy who murdered somebody, but they gotta do it. That's the other ironic thing. It's like defund the police, but they're very police-like.

You know, hey, don't say this, don't do that. you got out of line, we got to hit you over the head. It's very police-like. But that being the case, I actually think it's important, particularly with comedians, particularly when you know that they haven't done anything wrong, that if when people come after them or people say shit,

we've got to all stand up, man. Right, right. We've all got to go, look, fuck off. Yeah. Because the more you push back against it, the less they're going to want to do it. Maybe even ignoring is even more powerful. Maybe it is. I don't know. I'm vengeful. I get it. I get it. You know what I mean?

Yeah, no, I hear you. To me, they're no different than the playground bully. They're not going to do it to someone, really, who they know that they can really hurt. They can try, but they're going to go after and really try and hurt the people who they know can't fight back. Right, right. And here's the saddest part is we're in a nice place talking about this. A million people are watching this going, maybe not a million, let's be realistic.

Too many. People are watching this going, three white guys sitting around talking about cancel, what the fuck do they know about, da-da-da, and you're like, you're doing it again. You can't help yourself. They're doing it right now.

They're going, three white guys, here we go. We've got to listen to this shit again. And you're like, first of all, maybe listen. Maybe absorb something and take it in. And second of all, it's a problem. It's a thing.

Like, people are losing jobs. people in cubicles who are like, oh, shit, I said this on a whatever, and now I can't have a job as a production assistant and whatever the hell job. It's like, this happens all over, and you're like, stop focusing on our race, too, like three white men, straight white. It's like, it's just so exhausting. And you're like, just listen to me. I'm a human being.

All we talk about is like inclusive and open-mindedness. And it's the opposite of that. But it's also so superficial because we've talked about this a gazillion times, but Francis' mother, dark brown-skinned woman from Venezuela, Latino, right? But he happens to look white, therefore he's a white man. Very white. I'm a first generation Russian Jewish immigrant with like Greek and whatever blood, right? To a lot of people, I'm not white in the UK.

I wasn't considered white in Russia when I was growing up. Oh, really? No. No. Right? So you've decided, you know what my race is. You've decided he's a white man. Do you see what I'm saying? Yeah, of course, of course. I'm actually doing that with gender.

Right. That would fly. You decide what I tell you with my gender. You should do that with your race. Right. So, but the whole idea that whether what people are saying is valuable or not depends on what skin color they have. To me, it seems like quite a backward idea, Mark. Completely backwards and complete regression.

And it has to topple over on itself because I saw a woman once with a, she was shouting, there's no such thing as gender. It's a construct. It's a contract, but she had a shirt on and said, The Future is Female. And I'm like, ah, the irony, what are you doing? By the way, future is female, not very inclusive. Yeah.

Wiping out, and I look, I know I'm reading into it too literally, but I'm a comedian. Yeah. But, yeah, it's just like, it can't last. There's always these ways where it just keeps contradicting. Yeah. And when it does fall over, it might be in 10 years. I'm going to remember every cum-guzzler piece of shit

who is on the other side. Yeah. It's like, they say the future is female, but none of them can define woman. Ah, yeah, see, that's another one. You're like, yeah, what the fuck? Yeah. All right, man, well, we've done a lot of bitching in this pot.

Sorry, yeah. No, no, no, we're the ones that have been making it happen. Yeah. What are you excited about? What are you looking forward to, with comedy, with what you're working on? Well, I got a fun hour in the hopper. It's like getting there.

I give it another six months. This will be really cooking. And clubs are full, people are coming out, there's a hunger for comedy, my social media's going up, my YouTube is going up. So like, people are finding the funny people, which is what it should be. It should be a meritocracy where the funny wins. I don't care what skin, color, gender, whatever, funny should win. And I think we're going in that direction.

The cream seems to rise and I'm excited about that. I think it's good. I hope the country, I know you guys aren't Americans, but I hope it can, you know, I'm figure itself out and it seems like the people are talking and you read every comment on shit and it's like oh I agree with that I agree with that I agree with that so I feel like I'm in the majority right every green room I go to we have this conversation so really oh yeah oh yeah so the comics are all talking about this not all of them but the ones in green rooms the one's working they're talking about it and and again I don't want to be one of these like hey we got to stand up

and fight this woke shit. Like, I don't want to be that guy, but it's like, hey, if you keep fucking with people's shit, it's gonna happen. It's gonna come up. See, we never wanted to be those guys either. We just, like, saw what was happening in our industry. And you gotta remember, in the UK,

it's a little bit different because there's one industry. Like here, let's say, you get, I don't know, whatever, people get annoyed with you in New York. You can go to L.A. You can go to another scene. In the UK, it's not like that. Right. You've got one scene, and if the fucking four gatekeepers,

control everything, don't like you, or don't like the political side you take, or don't like the joke, whatever. That's it, right? Yeah. So... What about YouTube? Can you go to that? Well, now, so that's the only way, right? But most people... See, this is what most people don't understand, though, is in order to have, like, a successful podcast or a YouTube show, it takes quite a lot of work. And most comics don't want to do a lot of work. Yeah, of course, of course. You know. We were taught in this business, you'd be funny, they'll scoop you up, they'll put you on TV, bright lights, there you go. Yeah. They do all the characters.

Comics now learning how to edit, learning how to shoot, what cameras are good? How do I mic the guy? Like, that's new. Yeah, you know, we can barely drive. Yeah. Well, exactly. And you have to put in the work and the effort to build it up. And look, if you start a podcast now, it's a hell of a lot harder than it was five years ago. That's true. There's so many. Now it's competitive, it's difficult. You know, like when we started trigonometry, we had like, like, you had like,

like a borrowed camera and like a phone in like a, it looked like a seance. Yeah. Just like a black curtain with one light and we weren't even facing the right way and it was crap. Like you can't do that now. Like if you're starting something now, you've got to have a good straight away. It's got to look good, it's got a sound right. Yep.

So, but this is the thing is like everyone has the opportunity now, but you have to put in the work. And like you say, that's not how comedians get trained. We think, you know, you do the clubs, you get picked up by an agent, you get on TV, you know, and then you're going to be fine. That isn't going to be the model for almost anyone anymore. Right. It just isn't.

No, you're right. But I think dark times lead to entrepreneurship. I mean, that's always been the case with human history. Like the Great Depression, all this shit came out of it, you know, all these inventions and whatnot. World War II, the same. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So, yeah, it sucks. and we gotta do all this shit and learn stuff.

But I think it's for the best. I think it's a hump to get over, and it is a bitch. But once you do it, you'll be able to control everything you do. You'll be able to put out everything and not censor and all that. And I think it is for the best. And next, you guys have a lot of great equipment, but I think next is an air conditioning unit. It is very hot here.

Yeah, yeah. But Mark, listen, it's been, did you want to add something? No, no, no. Why didn't you touch me the first time we dig together? But no, like, I completely agree with everything you say. The thing that I noticed, I remember when I first started a podcast, this was way back in like 2016, 2017, and I noticed it was very interesting. It was the white comics who were very shy about saying that they were on a podcast.

They were like, oh, I don't know what, you know, I'm worried about what people think about me. Maybe you don't get this in America. Every time we had a black guest on, they're like, yes, I'm going to put it on all my fucking socials, I'm going to put it out there. Because, and I was thinking, I was thinking, why is that? And it was like, oh, because it comes from hip-hop culture. Because at that time when hip-hop started, you know, black people were ostracized, they were excluded. They were facing a great deal of racism, prejudice of society. So they thought to ourselves, fuck it, if you're not going to give us the opportunities, we're going to create ourselves, which is how hip-hop started.

Right. Right. Yes. So it was coming from that. And I remember looking at them going, yeah, that's. What's what you need to do? You've got to accept that this ain't working anymore. This model that we were all led to believe was going to be the way to do it when we started

in the mid to late naughties or even earlier. We've now got to think more like independent entrepreneurs and just make the stuff that we want to make and then put it out there. You're completely right. And look at hip-hop. When that came out, especially like gangster rap, Ice Cube and NWA, all that shit, you know, they were burning records, Nancy Reagan, don't listen to this, parental advisory. burning records and CDs.

And, you know, they're saying fucked up shit. They're saying shoot a cop, fuck a bitch, I'll jizz in your eye, whatever the hell they're saying. And it was... All the stuff that all your jugs basically came out. Yeah, yeah, exactly. All the classics, but it was taboo and all that. But, like, how corny do those people look?

Now rap has flourished so much. And we've got great artists. And the weird thing is, like, now when people want to stomp out comedy or something, you're like, you want to be in the, the annals of history, you want to be the burning ice cube records guy? You know, like, can't you see that this is the path you're on? And this, you get to be Ice Cube. Yeah.

Which is so much better. You're an artist. You're a cool guy. You're a talent. And then they go, hey, this is offensive and inappropriate. And you're like, that's the side you want to be on? When Elvis is shaking his hips, you want to be the, and they just use different words. They go, well, you're offensive.

You're a racist. You're a bigot. With the ice cube, you're a, you're a. a thug, you're a, you know, a criminal or whatever. And you're like, it's just a different version of the same fucking thing with Lenny Bruce, whatever, rock and roll, you know, Elvis, it just keeps going. And you're like, can't you see you're on the fucking bad side? And this is it because when I was watching the NWA film, I can't remember what it's called. Oh, it's a great talk. Yeah. And it's a brilliant movie. And when they were trying to shut them down,

they came out and said, this is my right as an American. It went to the Supreme Court. This is my first amendment right. Yes. For free speech to say what I think and what I believe. And you're like, fuck yes. Yeah. That's how it should be.

Of course. And look at history. Like, you're going to be the dork if you fight against that. As time goes on, like, people are like, gay marriage is wrong. Now we have gay marriage. You want to be that guy who's holding down? artists? That's crazy.

Yeah. And the thing that I really enjoyed from this conversation is, is this sense of optimism. Because I think particularly in the UK, where we're less optimistic, we have less of that kind of entrepreneurial spirit. It doesn't come as easily to us. There's more of a kind of like, oh, fuck, what are we going to do? There is that. It's also because we have laws that prevent you from making offensive jokes. Yeah, that's scary. That's terrifying. Yeah.

But with America... What do you think of that, like from an American perspective? So we have laws, for example, that say that if you're grossly offensive, you can be... The police can call you up and arrest you. They can ask you, like, we had one guy who tweeted something offensive. The police called them and said, we need to check your thinking, make sure. Whoa. And we had a comic recently called Joe Lyser, who he was on tour.

Very popular comic in the UK. Very mainstream as well. There remains to me. He's not like a guy that's going out there, going on, this, you know, offensive, whatever. And he had a visit from the police or a call from the police to explain his joke because an audience member. Like, what do you make of that in America? I think that's wild. I think it's, I hope we never get there. I think that's insane. I think it's scary. I know in Germany, it's illegal to make a Holocaust joke, which is funny because whenever a German comes to New York and they go to the comedy cellar, where are you from? Germany, oh, fucking Nazi out here. And we do it immediately.

It not only is it allowed, it's the first thing we say. And they're like, what? Uh-uh. I don't think they're mad we're calling a Nazi. They're like, wow, you went there. And that's what's great about American comedy. It's like, we're going all in immediately and saying the worst fucking thing and breaking the ice.

Back to breaking the ice. And I think that's a good thing. This guy can finally laugh at this fucked up shit for the first time in how many decades. And that's fucking awesome. And look, I'm calling him a Nazi, which is shitty, but he knows I'm joking. You know, he's at a comedy club sitting next to a black lady. You know, like, we all know what it is, and that's a beautiful thing. And why would you want to take that joy away?

And what a perfect way to end the show. Thank you so much for coming on the show, Mark. Kyle Hitler. See, that's the wrong thing. So, Mark, last question we always ask is complete free hit. What's the one thing we're not talking about that we really should be? Ooh, well, I think when a lady is blowing you, work the balls. No, I feel like the balls get neglected.

One thing that I think is very strange is my friend is a funny comedian. She's a lesbian. And everybody now is like, you know, I'm by, maybe I'm gay. You know, I think I find women hot. Maybe I'm by. And she's so mad about these people using this as like some kind of prop and like jump up a level in a career thing. because now I'm interesting, I'm by. And she's like, you're not by, you're a liar.

You're using my shit that I went through hell. She's a little older. She's using my shit to like prop yourself up. And I went through hell as a gay woman who's in her late 40s, early 50s. Like, she's pissed. And I don't think anybody's bringing that up because we're too scared to approach anything in that world.

Lesbian lives matter. Exactly. Yes, scissor. Yeah, exactly. Like, you know, you get people go like, I'm queer, like, blokes or whatever else. You go, unless you've sucked the dick. Yeah.

Do you know what I mean? Of course, of course. Then shut the fuck up, basically. Shut the fuck up. And stop using my shit to elevate your success. There you go. This episode's ended well. Can I blow you right now?

Of course, man. That's the only reason I got you on the show. Mark, we're going to ask you a couple of questions from our supporters only. But thanks for coming on. Where should people go and see you? Where should they find you? on your podcast, et cetera. Tell everybody where you're at. You got it. All right. My website is

marknormoncom.com. I'm all over the road in America. Tons of tour dates. I have two podcasts. We might be drunk. And Tuesdays with stories. And yeah, say hello. Follow me on the internets and whatnot. And just try to be nice. That's all I want is to be nice and get along and tell a joke and have people laugh and not hate me.

Fantastic. Thank you so much for coming on. and thank you for watching, guys. We've got fantastic episodes that always come out. Wednesdays and Sundays, 7pm UK time. Our raw shows are again at 7pm UK time. And for those of you who like your trigonometry on the go, it's also available as a podcast. We're going to ask some questions for our locals,

that only our locals, supporters are able to do. Take care and see you soon. Who is the most annoying celebrity you have worked with and why is it James Corden? Ha ha ha ha ha.