TRIGGERnometry - "Masculinity Isn't Toxic, Our View of Men Is" - Peter Lloyd

Episode Date: September 23, 2020

Peter Lloyd is a journalist and author of Stand by Your Manhood: A Game-changer for Modern Men Support TRIGGERnometry: Paypal: https://bit.ly/2Tnz8yq https://www.subscribestar.com/triggernometry https://www.patreon.com/triggerpod Find TRIGGERnometry on Social Media:  https://twitter.com/triggerpod https://www.facebook.com/triggerpod https://www.instagram.com/triggerpod About TRIGGERnometry:  Stand-up comedians Konstantin Kisin (@konstantinkisin) and Francis Foster (@francisjfoster) make sense of politics, economics, free speech, AI, drug policy and WW3 with the help of presidential advisors, renowned economists, award-winning journalists, controversial writers, leading scientists and notorious comedians. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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And this is a show for you if you want honest conversations with fascinating people. A terrific guest today is a journalist and author of Stand By Your Manhood. Peter Lloyd, welcome to Trigonometry. Hi, thanks for having me. It's great to have you. Listen for anyone who hasn't seen the Peter Lloyd destroys feminist videos that make about 80% of YouTube traffic in the world. Tell everybody who are you, how are you where you are, what has been the journey that brings you inexorably here. Okay, so as you said, I'm a journalist, I'm an author of Stand By Your Manor.

Yes, this brilliant book here. Which I can say that Jordan Peterson actually has a copy of. Oh, wow. So if that isn't like being blessed by the Pope, I don't know what is. And of course, I'm responsible for the sticks and stones meme, which has got me many pints in pubs over the years, which is fantastic. and I'm now in the process of writing another book on a similar topic and continuing to try and defend men from this ongoing culture war which we find ourselves embroiled in.

And why do we need defending? Because nobody else is doing it. And because the attacks are getting more vitriolic, more aggressive, more incendiary than ever. And I just think it's, you know, if we continue down this road, so much longer, it's going to be a pretty depressing state of a verse when we get there. And we always hear this term being used as a culture war, and some people will talk about it and say, you know, some people even say that it doesn't exist. To you, what do you think,

what does it mean the term the culture war? Well, I mean, I think you don't have to look very far for the evidence. Only this week, the UN, the United Nations said that COVID-19 was proof of patriarchy and that society needed to be totally deconstructed and rebuilt in this feminist vision, which I'm sure we can all agree would be pretty horrendous. What else happened? We've had the... Even though, I mean, men suffer from COVID significantly more and worse than women. Forget that men have been the highest fatality group of COVID-19.

That's irrelevant. You know, when the asteroid hits Earth, it's always women who are most affected. we've had the American Psychological Association publishing formal guidelines saying that masculinity is dysfunctional and the doctors should treat male patients accordingly which is outrageous. We've also had Gillette telling their customer base and half the population that they are probably aggressive and abusive. And only recently even the Dalai Lama chimed in on this. Did he? Did he? I thought, didn't he get cancelled?

I thought that to me that was peaked. Twitter. When I went on Twitter once, it was like hashtag cancel Dalai Lama. He said something about how Europe should be for Europeans or something like that. He did, but then I think maybe he was keen to redeem himself with the woke crowd. He's just bashed men. Yeah, well, I mean, it's easy to throw blokes under the boss. Yeah. So he said that he hoped that there were more women elected to positions of power because they are superior at leading countries.

All right. So, I mean, if that is spiritual enlightenment for you, then we're all fucked. And maybe he was just trying to get laid. Well, maybe he was going to get laid. I mean, a lot of men do that, right? Yeah. They play that card to get laid. But as I always say, you might get laid in the short term, but you'll get shafted in the long term.

So don't do it. So I guess what you're really talking about when you talk about the culture war and some of the examples that you give is that the mainstream narrative has been for quite some time that women are disadvantaged, oppressed, etc. Would you disagree with that? I mean, we obviously saw with the Me Too movement, which went quite far. Let's be honest, I'm sure we'll get into that. But it did expose a lot of wrongdoing by a lot of powerful men. And that sort of behavior exists, right? You know, there was the perpetual talk of the gender pay gap.

We've had plenty of guests on to talk about, you know, how that's misunderstood and whatever. But there is a sort of perception that women are sort of more affected by disadvantaged in society. And I think we all would know women who have been affected by some of those things. So you're pushing back against that narrative because you feel no one else is. Yeah, I mean, a couple of other people are. But certainly when I started, there weren't many people doing it. And I felt really compelled to do something and say something because, A, I'm a man. And so I've got a vested interest in, you know, our future survival as a species.

And also because I'm a journalist and it's my duty to kind of report the truth. and to speak the truth, even if it's unpopular and readers don't necessarily want to hear it. And that's especially true if the establishment doesn't want to hear it. And as any journalist would know, you know, journalism is very, very much feminist-friendly. There are a lot of feminist columnists out there, a lot of editors are kind of, you know, imbued with that narrative that women are oppressed and need help and that men are oppresses that need to almost be taken down a peg or two. And would you, what is your main issue of disagreement with that narrative?

Why do you not think that that's true? I probably don't think it's true either, but I'm curious to get you to explain it so that we can get you cancel instead of me. Well, you know, I mean, I can have all the beliefs that I have and truly believe in them, but also recognize that, you know, women don't have perfect lives. they will experience some encounters of sexism and harassment along the way. And of course that's unfortunate and I'd rather it didn't happen. But it's also real life.

Men will also face examples of discrimination and harassment. And there will be things that happen to them that are unfortunate and then I wish didn't happen. What I have a problem with is that the narrative that's so incredibly mainstream and so powerful and is now such a massive cash cow is that it doesn't ever mention any of the issues that face men. So it's not really about equality. what it's really about is pushing forward this agenda that's very feminist-friendly, that's promoting and safeguarding women all the time

frequently at the expense of men. And if we continue to do that, we're going to end up with a male underclass who either check out of society metaphorically or literally. But, Peter, don't you think as well that, you know, you say men get harassed, and of course we do, but it's far less than the way women do. You know, it's very rare for a man to get shouted at

when walking down the streets. And practically every woman I talk to says that when it gets dark, they're walking by themselves. They put their key in between their fingers. And, you know, so if something happens, they can hit and run. You know, walking down a dark alley, they would never do. We do it as a matter of course. Don't you think that they've got a reason to be grumbling?

But do you not just nearly get mugged like a week ago? Yeah, but I thought him off because I'm a legend. My point has been made and I haven't even needed to say anything. Yeah, but I got, I thought him off because I'm a legend. So, you know, that's why I'm as when you're an alpha mate. Now, shut up and answer the question. So look, being male and being female, it's a complicated mix of benefits and burdens for both sides. No gender has it all good all the time and no gender has it all bad all the time, despite

what a lot of columnists and feminists would have you believe. You know, if men are oppressors, then they must be the worst oppressors in history. We pay the most taxes. We get the least state support. We're the most likely to be violently attacked. We're the most likely to be unemployed, jailed, denied access to our children, shafted in a divorce. And on top of all that, we have to play longer matches at Wimbledon for the same money. It's a raw deal.

It's a raw deal. And, of course, we die sooner. But none of those things are addressed. It's just, you know, fragile masculinity if you try and address any of those issues. And for all the allegations that feminism is interested in true equity, they never address these issues. Well, I mean, there's so many things to pick up on there. Let's start with feminism, because it's a term that actually has so many meanings that it's important to define. So if we talk about feminism as the belief that men and women are equal and should be treated equally, I'm...

He's a Russian. Can you just see the look of disgust on his face as he said those words? I imagine that you and I would both be feminist. if that was the definition of feminist, right? I think everybody would be a feminist. I'm just ignoring your stupid joke by then. And because I ignored it, you look even more stupid. That's a nerve right there. Sorry, for instance, but you're cancelled.

For the rest of the chair, you're cancelled. It's done. And you nearly got mugged. But anyway, so on that definition, we'd all be feminist. So when you were talking about feminism, what is it that you're talking about? It's actually hard to define. I'm not truly sure.

what feminism is about anymore. It's certainly not about women's liberation in the Middle East. It's certainly not about the girls in Rotherham who were victims of rape gangs. And it's certainly not in the interest of women

who choose not to have a career and want to raise children and be a housewife. So I'm not really sure what feminism is about anymore. But I think probably the most accurate definition is to say it's not about equality, it's trade.

unionism for women. And usually a certain type of woman, usually a middle-class, professional woman. And why do you think that feminism, you've touched some very salient points, you know, for instance, the horrors of the grooming gangs where we had Ella Hill-Wan, she talked, I think, was about half a million girls who've been abused or, you know, the way women are being oppressed in places like the Middle East. Why don't they address these particular issues, even though these are very important issues regarding women? Well, what a terrific question that is. I mean, I think we've all been asking that

question of feminist for a long time. And I think the answer is, A, it's a thorny issue. And B, it requires effort. And it wouldn't give them any immediate gain in their very nice lives in London or wherever in the country they choose to live. And so they just don't focus on it. All they're interested in is, you know, these kind of mythical pay gap issues or, you know, I mean, recently, I mean, only, Today I read a story about a woman who's taking legal action against the only male only club in London called the Garrick, which is very historic. It's a place Lawrence Olivier used to hang out in. It's a safe space. You know, it's just a nice space for men together.

And I'm happy with that. I'm happy for women to have women-only clubs. But, you know, she's launching this legal campaign against the Garrick. But she's totally fine with all the women-only clubs. exclude men. So, you know, they seem to be filling their minds with all this subterfusion, all these inconsequential matters, which either aren't real or aren't important. And then they don't have time to focus on the really important things, which is difficult and requires complex thought and having to have consistent principles. That's the tricky bit. And I always say

that to feminists, both male and female, I say this to feminists, is that the trick is you've got to apply your principles consistently. So, you know, and that's the hard bit. There's a lot of inconsistency flying around, definitely. Let's talk about men, though, because I think that what you said, which is men checking out, is a big part of why this issue concerns me and concerns us, because I think what you're talking about, broadly speaking, is quite accurate, which is there's a sort of unspoken or sometimes spoken feeling that there's something wrong with men.

men by definition are bad, masculine qualities, that traditionally would be considered virtues and our vices, et cetera. And we have seen this sort of particularly fueled by the Internet and the ability of people with sort of very peculiar ways of thinking to band together and to reinforce each other's whatever, this sort of in-cell and all of this sort of stuff. And I don't know whether you feel. I feel all of that is deeply unhealthy for men and for women.

for there to be this sort of, you know, pressure on men and then they check out and then you end up in this really weird place between men and women. Is that your take on it as well, or do you have a sort of different perspective? No, I agree. I don't think it's masculinity that's toxic. I think it's the narrative about masculinity that's toxic. We, you know, we hear all the time that we shouldn't body shame people or we shouldn't shame people or we shouldn't make people feel bad. Because if you do that, then it might damage their mental health and who knows what that will lead to. And yet, despite being told that, the exact opposite is true when men have spoken about. They're told that they're defective, they're deficient, that they should be more like women, that they're emotionally illiterate. You know, they are told that they are potential abusers in waiting.

And really, that there's surplus to requirements. We're constantly told that the future is female messages like this. And it doesn't take a rocket scientist to work out that after a while that builds up. and it's cumulative. And if you are, I mean, I'm lucky I've never been clinically depressed, but if I were depressed or if I was feeling disenfranchised, that narrative over a relatively short period of time could easily push someone over the edge

or push someone at least to the point of checking out of society. And do you think we're facing a crisis of masculinity at the moment, men going not really certain what their role is in the world? No, I think that's bollocks. Finally, another episode. when you get owned, then not even by me, Peter, keep going, mate. Carry on.

If I can be frank, I think it's bollered. Yeah. I think, you know, if masculinity is in a state of flux because of perhaps where we are in the stage of the world, then you know what? So is femininity.

Men are in no more a state of crisis than women are. And so I think really the reality is that we need to stop focusing on men at being a fault and holding womanhood as the gold standard

because it's just not. True. And you mentioned male mental health. Obviously, if anyone is watching this and are affected by it as a man, you need to man up. But I make the joke deliberately to make the point that we, I mean, I think we definitely do treat men and women differently. But do you think, I mean, I feel with male mental health. I thought you're going to say mental men then. Mental men, mental health. Same thing. Enough about you, Francis. Yes. Same thing. But I almost feel like we're starting to move. too far now where it's like, oh, I mean, one of the important qualities for men, and the three of us

will know this, if you want to do anything in life, you do need a dose of sort of get on with it, attitude, right? So teaching men to be more like women and talking about their feelings all the time, I'm not sure that's helpful to young men. It's totally not helpful. Men and women process emotions and their feelings and their life experiences in different ways. All the studies show that men are typically more emotionally flat throughout whatever they're going through, whereas women tend to be more up and down. And that's fine. It's what I was saying earlier is that we treat the female experience, the female way of doing things as the gold standard and how men should behave. And it just doesn't translate. And I really get frustrated with this narrative. And you see it all the time, whenever there's

talk about male suicide or male mental health, it's the implication is always that the men themselves are to blame, rather than the really grotesque culture in which they're forced to live. So it's, you know, this man's depressed and he's suicidal. That's because he's not able to talk about his feelings and he's not able to cry. If he opened up more, he'd feel much better and he wouldn't be such a burden on society. And you think, maybe that isn't the problem. Maybe the problem is what made him to feel suicidal in the first place, which might just be the fact that, who knows, he's been divorced and he's not allowed to see his children, or that he's lost to. his job, after all, men are the majority of the unemployed in this country, or maybe it's the

fact that he's just sick of being told that he's unwelcome in modern Britain. And do you think part of the problem as well is that we expect, and we've touched on it as well, we expect men and women to be exactly the same, that there's no difference between men and women, when we both know, and everyone knows that there is. Yet somehow there's this narrative being propagated, it's like, there should be no difference between the sexes whatsoever. Right. But what always makes me laugh is that we are told exactly that. There are no differences between the sexes. There is no such thing as a male and female brain, even though we know that's not true. Yes, there's lots of overlap, but there are differences

between the male and female brain. So we're told that they're exactly the same, that gender is a social construct until it benefits women. And then we hear, ah, see, females are better leaders because they're more compassionate and men aren't compassionate. So, you know, or women are just more, women advance better at a younger age. Girls grow up and mature better than boys because that's just how they're white. I think that's true. Yeah, no, I think it's true, but it's funny that we say,

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The thing that worries me, I'm really glad we have you on the show because I think this is a really important conversation. But the thing that worries me at the back of my head is, I don't want men and women to be in this sort of conflict. The battle of the sexes is the most retarded thing I've ever heard. Right, too much fraternizing with the enemy, right? Right. Like, men and women need each other. It's always been that way. It will always be that way. that's the way it is, right? So for everybody to do this sort of, let's do a tally of what men suffer from, and let's do a tally of what women suffer from, and let's compare notes and go, no, no, we are more oppressed, no, we are more oppressed. That is the most counterproductive and stupid thing

I've ever fucking heard, right? And yet here we are sort of doing it, right? So how do we have a more healthy conversation about these issues? Well, I think a lot of the responsibility lies with the sisterhood, really. I think they need to mudd themselves. And we were talking earlier about the Labour Party, weren't we, and they've kind of moderated slightly now. Kea Stormer is the leader of the party. And I think maybe it will take somebody or some group of people to, you know, to kind of modulate the message that comes out of the sisterhood. But I also think that it's different for men because, or at least I feel like my motivation in doing this is not to come across as the victim.

because I don't really think I think men can be disadvantaged and sometimes systematically but I don't really think of us as victims I don't really think of women as victims either but you know I feel like my motivation is good

and men discussing this would also have good motivation because they're defending something that's being attacked rather than attacking someone else I think that's the difference between how men and women approach this debate but I totally agree that you know, the genders are, you know, men and women are the yin and young of the genders.

Right. And we are designed to, you know, couple up and procreate and all those other things. And life would be pretty boring if there was only one gender in the world. Unfortunately, there's 27. 64, actually, you bigger. There's been one invented since we started this interview. But one thing that I really wanted to talk to you about is fathers. Because there's this idea.

now that a single mom can bring up a kids, and of course she can, all the rest of it. But fathers are a little bit redundant. We don't need dads. We don't need them. Do you agree with that? Well, I agree that that's the message that's put out there and is frequently believed. But I think that all the evidence points to the contrary. If you look at all the data on this, children who grow up in families without fathers are frequently more disadvantaged. They frequently fail more academically, professionally, generally in life. And, you know, that lack of a role model can sometimes lead to things like, you know, gang culture. So I think it's a myth.

I think people are deluding themselves if they believe that you can have a family and that the absence of a father isn't going to make a big difference. I mean, if my father, you know, I love dearly and I'm very close to him, very lucky. You know, if he died, God forbid, people would say, I'm so sorry for your loss. What a huge hole in your life you would have. And yet, if I never had him from the start, people would never even think that. They wouldn't think that I had a hole in my life. They would just think, oh, well, what did you need a father for? You had a mother. But I would also say to women, it's BS that you think you can raise a child on your own. A lot of single mothers do.

a very good job of raising children and often suffer a lot of hardship but come through it anyway. But most of the time they're reliant on the state. So they might not have a husband who they rely on financially or support. But instead, what they do is they rely on the state. And who is the state most funded by men? So they might not be relying on the fathers of their children, but they're relying on other men. It's a really difficult thing to talk about because I think I have tremendous this admiration for single mothers in the sense that it is incredibly difficult to bring up a child with two parents. To do it on your own is really difficult.

And I have tremendous respect for women who do that and do a good job. But there's no denying that it's more difficult. It makes your job more difficult as a mother. And it's more difficult for the child. It's more difficult for them to, they need positive role models that they don't necessarily have. As you say, the evidence shows that children without fathers are much more likely to get in trouble, to go to prison, et cetera, et cetera. But I think there's this desire to somehow cover it up

by pretending that anyone who talks about the need for fathers is really just blaming the single mothers. I think it's much more of actually an area where men do need to step up, you know. Yeah. And I'm not in any denial, though, over the fact that there are lots of feckless fathers out there and there are lots of men who could step up and do a much better job of raising their children. But at the same time, let's be honest, it's 2020. And, And for all the talk of equality, fathers in this country and throughout the West, including America, do not have equal parenting rights. How can that possibly be a thing? For decades of talk about equality and fairness and equity, fathers still don't have equal rights.

So men are expected to do 50% of the childcare. They're expected to do 50% of the financial rearing of a child. and yet they don't have 50% rights over that child. That's absurd. And people wonder why fathers are disenfranchised from the system. So you say that they don't have 50% of rights. What does that actually mean, Peter? Let's break it down. What does that actually mean in legal terms? Well, if you're a man and you're married and your relationship breaks down, you can essentially lose any visitation rights to your child overnight. You might go to court, spend a small fortune on legal fees with solicitors. You might be in mediation with your ex-partner for months,

and you can get all the court orders you need, and nobody will enforce them. Yeah, well, we actually have a mutual friend who essentially had to sell his house just to be able to see his kids. Right. And that happens all the time. All the time. I get phone calls and emails about it. People saying, what am I going to do? I'm stuck in this situation. I can no longer see my children. I still need to bankroll them. I still need to finance them. child support. If I don't, I'll be sent to prison. But my ex-wife won't be penalised for stopping me seeing my kids. And for me, that's heartbreaking. I think that's, of course, yes, the reflect was father, but the much bigger issue is the system that excludes them deliberately.

And a lot of people say they're a bias. The family courts are biased, particularly in the UK, I can't comment about America. But I know people who've been through the family courts. They say that they're biased. Would you agree with that? Fuck yeah. So you've mentioned one thing. What else? How else are they biased? The family court system.

Yeah. Or the court system in general? The court system, but particularly the family court system. Well, I mean, if a father's name is not a birth certificate, then he isn't even legally recognized as the father anyway. So, I mean, that's, forget whatever DNA is there. Forget science. You talked about science denialism on the show before. You know, that man's DNA is just what.

wiped from existence in the situation of that family. You know, there were even examples where men have been forced to pay child support for children that aren't even his. I mean, only recently there was a case where a man was forced to pay child support for a child who he'd raised for about 14 years. Later transpired that the child wasn't his, the wife had lied, and the court still forced him to pay child support. Wow.

There have been other cases where there was one situation where a couple had gone to an IVF clinic and he donated sperm and during the process of this, they'd split up. And he had decided that he didn't want to continue with this journey and didn't want to have children with his partner because they were no longer together. She forged his signature on a form, got access to the sperm, was inseminated, had a child, took him to court. And even though his consent was violated, were told about the important. of consent all the time. His consent was violated. He was still forced to pay child support for a child. He didn't even consent to having. Wow. That's terrifying. And also, don't give your sperm to anyone, me. Yeah. And also, you know, paternity fraud is a huge issue that is never, ever spoken about. There hasn't been a single conviction for paternity fraud in this country.

That's really interesting. I mean, the one thing that, again, and I'm really glad we have you on the show to talk about this, because I think it's really important. And to be able to talk, about men and the problems that we have in the sort of unfiltered way I think is important. I really do. But I do worry with it, and I tell you why, I have this feeling like when I listen to some of the way that these in-cells talk or these other, there are other groups of men who are just bitter and resentful. That's what they are, right?

They've checked out. They hate women, many of them genuinely hate women. They talk about them and these disgusting disparaging ways. I don't like it. I don't think that's the way for us to go. But I just, I wonder what the constructive way to deal with it is because menanism will never work for men. You'll never work for us because we don't elicit the same compassion that women do. That's just how we're wired.

So talking about the problems of men will never work the way feminism has worked. It just won't. This is my opinion. I think I'm right, as I always do. So to me, the solution is always to get men and women back together to the realization that we need each other. We need to work together. Women, we were talking actually before the show started and we were talking about how some aspects of femininity are just like magic to men. We just look at that and go, wow, you can do that?

Incredible. I remember the first time, like, I saw my mom resolve an issue with someone else where my dad and I would have dealt with it through some kind of confrontation or aggression. And she just came and she went, oh, that's certainly. nice, she just smiled and boom, the whole problem. And I was like, oh my God, you can do that, you know? So, so I feel like the way to deal with this is to sort of get men and women learning from each other working together, realizing they need each other. Do you think we're sort of, that's a realistic objective at this point? Well, it's of course the ideal, but I don't think it's going to happen from just having my fluffy conversations. Yeah. You know, it's been a

couple of years since I wrote that book. And most of the sisterhood just don't care. You can present them with facts. They're just not interested. And I think what's happened is feminism has become such a lucrative industry now. It's almost taken on a different life form. Initially, it was a very noble purpose. You know, there were certainly times in history when women have been disadvantaged. They couldn't go to university. It was only in, I think, the 1960s when women couldn't get a mortgage on their own because they were reliant on a husband. So, you know, I can appreciate there have been difficulties for them, but now as they've acquired more equality,

it seems to have taken on a different form. It seems to have shape shifted into now almost an industry in itself, a business. And it is lucrative. I mean, if you look at women's aid, for example, they received last year something like five and a half million pounds. And nearly a million pounds of that was from the Department of Culture, Media and Sport. So just for existing, they get,

I mean, I'm sure they have a lot of outgoings, but they get almost a million pounds a year from the government. And what is a charity of women's aid? What is women's aid? Oh, so for those who don't know, it's a domestic violence shelter. But one of my issues with that is that, of course, yes, anybody who suffers domestic violence should be helped.

But once again, all the data shows that most victims of domestic violence, it's almost 50-50 men and women. And women, there have actually been some studies that show that women are actually more violent than men, although maybe in less damaging ways. That's actually very interesting that you bring that up. I have a friend who ended up getting divorced because his former wife was violent to him. But it just doesn't get spoken about. or talked about in the same way as when it happens to women. No, it doesn't.

And it also gets ridiculed. But isn't that just biology, though, because men on average are bigger and stronger. And we just expect, like, as you say, it's less damaging. So if your wife slaps you around the face, it's not the same as a guy punching his wife. Do you know what I mean? Well, there is an element of that. I think you're correct. But at the same time, any difference in strength is neutralized when she picks up a knife and stabs you in the back.

So it's really rubbish that women can't be violent. And also men's hands are tied when they are suffering from violent women because they are culturally taught you must never hit a woman, even in self-defense. And so, you know, Jordan Peterson speaks about this. How do men handle difficult women? Nobody knows that no men have ever taught that. Francis knows. Just a bay.

Yeah, just a bay. Just a bay, shut your mouth, keep your head down, don't make eye contact. Exactly. It's like dealing with a velocity Raptor. That is not going to help. I hate to break it to you, that's not working.

But going back to your original point before I went off on a tangent and overthought everything. You know, yes, of course, getting men and women back together and finding solutions for these things are great, but I think it's going to have to come the hard way.

I think we're going to have to give women uncompromising equality. So I think we're going to have to say, right, you want a draft for men? Like, there's a draft for men in America, and it only applies to men, right? You've got to do it for women as well.

Women, as soon as you hit 18, you've got to sign up for the draft. Parenthood, 50, 50 men and women down the middle every time. Women who don't allow fathers access to their children, you lose your passport or you lose whatever certain freedoms that you have. You might even lose custody of the child. I think we need to play hardball with equality to the point where people realize and recognize that the genders bring different things to the table

and perhaps we can re-appreciate each side again. So you don't actually want those outcomes. You're sort of going, well, if you want to go down, this is where we go. Or we can go back to sensible conversations about the fact that men and women are different. You don't actually want women to be serving in the army. Well, I mean, I would rather, well, I don't have a particular passion for women serving in the army. But at the same time, I don't want only men to be forced to serve in the army. I'd rather just be open to, hey, it's voluntary.

Anybody who wants to serve in the army, sign up. you can do it. Whereas at the moment, it's only blokes you have to do it. And if they don't do it, they're denied all sorts of federal rights and funding and all these other things. So I really think that the way to do it is to kind of almost force inconvenient equality on people. And do you not think, though, what we're experiencing now is a pendulum swinging in favour of women, where once it was in favour of men, and now because, you know, they had it hard for centuries. And now there's a little bit of an overcorrection, but eventually it'll sort of settle in the centre and we'll all carry on as normal.

I love it when people say that. People say women had it hard for centuries and pretty sure men didn't have it easy either. And if they did have it easy, it wasn't because they were men. It was because of class. If they had it easy, it's because they were middle class. Or they owned land or property. And the same applied to women.

That's the biggest determiner of what your life will be like and what we now. I call privilege. And it still exists today. Class is the biggest determinant of how your life will turn out. Not a guarantee, but it's a strong determinant, not gender. And so we look back historically and say, it was very difficult for women. Yeah, sure, but it was also really difficult for men. Men who were forced to fight in the trenches of the First World War, 95% of them didn't have the right to vote. And yet middle class women, land-owning women, who sent them to war, they could vote. Most people don't know that fact, but it's true.

It's interesting when you put it that way. You mentioned Jordan Peterson a few times. And I think Jordan Peterson is a fascinating phenomenon that tells you a lot about society and where we've come. Because, look, I've always been interested in personal development and sort of understanding how my brain works, growing, etc. So what Jordan Peterson was largely saying for the last half, of many years. It wasn't really new to me. A lot of people who sort of, you know, there wasn't

really a big thing there, you know, and this is no disrespect to Jordan Peters. I think he's a very courageous individual. I genuinely do. And I think the way he speaks, he comes across as very courageous, very truthful, and people resonate with that. But when I watched them, I was like, yeah, I know that kind of thing. But it had a huge impact on the world. And do you think that, and people always made it about his largely male audience and all that? Do you think the response to Jordan Peterson was what it was because he was pricking a massive bubble that existed in the sort of weird battle of the sexes?

And he was saying, no, it's okay to be a man. You're not a bad thing because you're male. Toxic masculinity is bullshit or whatever it was. And he was giving men an out from that sort of insult them that they were being forced into some of them. Absolutely. People were, A, hungry for truth, after decades of being gaslit by all sorts of academics and media figures,

people were hungry for truth, they still are today. And he gave them that. But he also really added a dimension of that to men who increasingly have very little space to exist in the world where they're spoken to with respect or they're spoken about with respect or in positive ways. And certainly in meaningful ways that affect their lives. And so the way that Jordan Peterson resonated so loud and for so long with so many people, including many women, I think was really testament to how big the problem is.

Because Jordan Peterson's central message to me, from what I've seen to him, says, it's all right to be male. It's all right to want to go out and achieve things and strive and, you know, and taught you many ways what really your father should have taught you. discipline, responsibility, all of those things. Tidy your bedroom. That's what your dad should have taught you. Right.

And yet that was considered a really controversial message. Yeah. Which, I mean, that is telling that such a simple, clear, obvious message was deemed incendiary, problematic, misogynistic. Of course, none of that was the case. But if you deviate from the narrative, as you know, you get kicked out of your studio, or you get cancelled, or, you know, whatever else happens. The police come knocking and tell you to delete tweets, that kind of thing.

Yeah. It's really interesting. One of the questions I wanted to ask you is, do you think it's sort of getting a bit better now? And the reason I ask this is, I think if we come back to the culture war, which we started with, and we look at the whole woke thing as a package, I get the sense, and maybe it's just my imagination, but tell me what you think, that the people who are sort of behind at all, or people who are running this whole operation,

they tried to split men and women, because for years there was this massive thing going on. And now I don't really hear it as much. And maybe that's because they realize that men and women, men and women always, you know, mothers are always going to love their boys, even if they are boys, even if they have problematic penises and whatever. you know, men and women are still going to pair up and procreate and have children. Like, you can't really split them up. And then they went, ooh, race. That's how we separate them.

I think that's interesting. I think probably a lot of feminists are annoyed that race is now the focal point of the narrative. I think they had it for so long that, you know, they had the spotlight for a long time and they loved it. And fair play to them, they were getting a lot of traction with it. I think there is something, and Douglas Murray touched on this during your interview with him, in that it's very tempting, there's something about the human condition, something very tempting about pulling that loose thread and destroying the tapestry of what's being created. They may have taken centuries to come about, but it's very tempting to destroy it.

And the human ego is epic. And these people often think, well, I have a better vision of how the world should look. forget what we've known throughout history. My version of the world is going to be better and we're all going to be much happier. Of course, that's really the case as we've seen so many times throughout history. But, yeah, I think maybe

there is an element of divide and conquer with the race aspect. And, you know, at least they've changed the record slightly. Not in a better direction. I mean, I can't say it's any better, but at least it's slightly different for a change. So where do we go from here?

it does feel like, you know, the media has been a mass overcorrection. I mean, people more and more have started to balk at what they feel is, you know, messages and slogans being rammed down their throat. So how do we come to a world where we're just more pleasant to one another and more civil? I think probably one of the starting points would be to end the grievance stoking. I think that is a crucial, critical, fundamental first step. And perhaps that is getting rid of defunding, I forget defunding the police, I think we need to defund women's studies at universities.

And this culture of teaching young girls and young women that they're victims and that they should be suspicious of men and that they're going to go into a workplace which is rigged and stacked against them and that they are on the back foot before they've even started in life. I understand why that happens, because for the movement to survive, to be future-proof to continue, it needs new recruits, and those new recruits need to be emboldened and angry, but it causes so much unnecessary grief, A, in a person's mind,

I feel for a lot of young women who are kind of gaslit by this message that they're the victims from the off. that's just not the case. Women are, thankfully, more liberated, emancipated, financially independent, than they've ever been. They're completely self-determining. Any other women in history would be so envious of where most women are now.

Interestingly, they're very unhappy. But of course, they're more unhappy than ever. So what do you think that's about? Do you know? Well, I think they've been told to compete with men as men, perhaps prioritise the workplace and the careers over families. Although that works really well for some women, some women don't want children, and of course that's fine,

and they would rather focus on their careers, I think really a lot of women, I almost saw the lie, and they're told to focus and compete and be in the office late and lean in, and we hear that message all the time, and then what happens is, of course, because the genders are different, women reach 40 and they suddenly realize that oh shit I've left it a bit too late to have children

and I know several women who are now unfortunately in that situation do you think part of the problems as well is that this myth of you can have it all you can have the career the great high-flying career you can have the family you can have the social life you can look a million dollars and the reality is look there's a finite amount of time we can't do everything and the reality is you've just got to pick what you want from life. I think that's exactly right. You can have it all if you're rich enough.

So if you can afford to have a nanny, and if you can afford to have, you know, someone whom it perhaps lives in and is a maid and can do, and help you go to work or whatever, then maybe you can have it all. But for the overwhelming majority of people, it's just not the case. And that's why the division of labour in the home

fell the way it did for so many years. The men would go out to the office because it was just easier for them to do that because they weren't having a child and then rearing the child. And so that's how families work together. And so that's really where it's gone wrong. And on that subject, it's kind of interesting, isn't it? Because you mentioned it earlier, not only is there a stigma in men doing certain things or not doing certain things.

There's actually quite a lot of stigma against women who want to play the traditional role. Right. Which I find mind-boggling. Isn't women's liberation supposed to be about allowing women? to do what they want. Well, you'd think. But increasingly, that's not the case. And often it turns out to be that feminists want women to make choices that are feminist

choices. They don't really want to make choices that are against the agenda. And that should raise a red flag with anyone. Because surely any movement that's about equality and freedom and liberty just wants people to be self-determining and to live by that class. political mindset of doing whatever they want that makes them happy. And, you know, all the conversation about slut shaming and body shaming, and yet they're shaming all the women for the decisions that they make about their life. I think that's sad.

But even some of those concepts, I mean, look at slut shaming. We had Megan Murphy, the Canadian feminist on the show. And she was saying, basically, like, women have been sold to lie about sex, which is women can have sex the way men think about sex. And it's just not true. And have a great time. It's not true. I mean, maybe some women can do that some of the time. But by and large, most of my female friends who do that end up conceding later on, we're just not the same. I just can't have sex like you have sex or like all the men have sex. And it is just a biological difference. And of course that is another one of the fraudulent claims that a lot of women are sold. And I know that I speak about men a lot and I defend men and I'm compelled to do that.

But, you know, I love women as much as I love men. I have two nieces. as well as two nephews. And I'm invested in their future and their well-being and their happiness as well. And so when I talk about this stuff, I really say it with women's interests in mind as well as men. Yeah, we do ignore biology. I find it so interesting when I have a female friend who has a baby,

just watching them completely change. Their priorities change. They can be at many points, you know, ferocious, career-driven, whatever else. They have a child, and immediately that big. becomes their priority. And you know what they always say? Best experience of my life. Motherhood was the best experience of my life. Loved all the jobs I had up until now. Loved my high-flying career in the city. But being a mother was the most fulfilling thing I

ever did. That's what I hear the most. And it's interesting because we say, you know, feminism, you can do anything, whatever you want. But if you saw a 21, 22-year-old girl and she said, you know what, I just want to get married and have babies and have a family, and that's all I really want to do. We think that's a bit weird. And that's quite sad, isn't it? Yeah, absolutely. Although, I don't think many men would have that opinion of her. I think it would be certain types of other women who would frown on her for that. And male feminist. And of course, male feminists who were desperate to get laid. He'd be groping her when she wasn't looking, as we know from left-wing comedians. Got it in this episode. Yeah, we did indeed. And then tweet about International Women's Day.

Yeah, did you follow this whole thing that happened in the comedy world over lockdown? Basically, it turns out all the left-wing comedians who've been banging on Twitter about how we need to do this and men need to be this and that they were largely the ones who were getting up to certain things behind the scenes. Well, imagine my shot. Who'd have thought it? I mean, that delightful note, Peter, it's been great having you on. I think it's an important conversation. And the thing that there's been the constant, like there's a bit of my head that's constantly, as we're talking, going, I don't want this fight. I don't want that to be a fight about this. I don't want men and women to be fighting. I just don't think that's helpful. I don't think that's healthy. I don't think that's good for anyone. I really, really don't. And if they do fight, they should be married, because that's how it should be working. They should do it in the privacy of their own home. Yeah. No, but I agree with you. But as I said earlier, I think it's slightly different for men. Their motivation is coming from. from a point where they're being defensive.

They're forced to defend their masculinity and their presence in the world and their importance in the world because it's under attack. So I don't really see it as men and women fighting. I see it as men having to defend what's being attacked. Sure, but then that's still a battle, isn't it?

Sure. It's still a war. It's not ideal. And I guess what you're saying is the people who are attacking, which is not women, it's certain feminists. They need to stop attacking and then men can stop defending and then people can actually have a, you know, a healthy dialogue and relationships.

Right. And it's not always women who are doing the attack. No. I always say that there's a civil war among men. You know, you have some... There is on this podcast. You have some really grin blokes out there like, well, Richard Herring is one. And Matt Haig is another. Can't Stand him.

And who's that other one who used to be in... Is it Robert? Oh, Robert Webb? Robert Webb. What's he done? He wrote a book, didn't he, about how his masculinity was dysfunctional and how he's realized that, you know. Well, chop your dick off, Robert and shut the fuck up. Yeah, so he's written this handbook of how men can be less toxic.

There you go. I've given him advice on how he can do it. I wouldn't normally advocate Bernie books, but that's different. When you were saying Robert, I kept thinking he was going to say McGarbe. Yeah. I think I'd probably rather have dinner with Robert Mugabe if someone did have toxic masculinity, yeah, I'd buy it with Robert Mugabe.

I think he might be up there. But yeah, I don't want there to be a war, and I think there's got to be a way for us to get there, you know? Because this is the other thing. I mean, the whole in-cell thing I find really, really, I don't know what the word is, but I don't like it. I think it's a problem. It's a symptom of a problem.

And those boys and guys who are getting into that, I don't blame them, but equally, no one's going to help them except them. They need to man up. They really do. They need to get better. They need to do something creative or productive,

get a job, whatever work on themselves, go to the gym, work, whatever it is, they need to do better. Take responsibility for their own lives. And I feel like that's not happening. You know,

and they're being pushed into that corner, that's really not healthy. I think one of the solutions that might happen in bringing the genders back together is that really feminism and this change in society that's implementing is one great big experiment at the moment. We've never really before done anything like what we've done over the last 50 years, deconstructing the family and all these other things. And so who knows where it's going to lead?

If the outcome is bad enough, then maybe people will realize that, You know, like we've seen with Venezuela. Things don't always operate as they are sold. And so I think maybe in the future people will look at feminism and historians will look at it and say, so we tried this for 100 years and actually women were miserable by the end of it. And they've rejected it in favor of balancing work and motherhood, which would be complete common sense.

And the thing is, as well, if you're a young man now, the truth is still that women are still attracted to men who are men. Right. Right. Like most women, like, there's been all sorts of experiments. You show them a picture of a like a guy who's well-built and sort of strong and masculine versus some soy boy.

They always pick the first one. Yeah. You know, even the woke women. So for guys, the best advice, really, is just to be you and not be embarrassed about being a man and you're probably going to be all right. Right. You know? Absolutely.

On that happy note, it's been great talking to you, Peter. we've got one more question as always. Which is the way we end every interview, which is what's the one thing we're not talking about that we really should be? Big vaginas. Okay. Right.

Go ahead. I was going to say let's elaborate. Why don't we stretch the conversation? I've actually got a picture if you would. No. By the way, I've never seen our producer look so interested in a conversation. He looks like he knows what I'm talking about. Of course he does.

Yeah. You know, I'm 40 years old. I recently turned 40. And I can say that throughout most of my adult life, I have had to listen to derisory comments about the penis, how it's not big enough, how it's not fat enough, or how it's not used properly. I'm not talking about my penis. I'm talking about all penises. You know, penises in general are breasts are revered. Naked women are revered. But the male appendage, the penis, is mocked. You know, even, you know, even. President Trump is humiliated over allegations about his penis. And I always think this is so unfair. When an erect penis is, you know, when a man's having sex, the erect penis is not in a vacuum. It's in a vagina. And if there's dissatisfaction, maybe we need to start looking at big, slack vaginas. That's a great way to end the interview, isn't it?

Yeah, I'll be honest with you. That took a turn. I mean, all I'm saying is, if women are happy to. to talk about men's anatomy in such a horrid way, then maybe we should start repaying the favor and, you know, just in the spirit of equality. And on that note, our producer has just crossed his legs. Yeah, he has. And we're going to get him to insert some crickets

as we just take a pause. We take a pause for the big vagina. Peter, thanks for coming on. It's been great to see where can people follow you and find out what you're getting up to. So I'm probably in the process of getting blocked on Twitter. Suffer gentlemen and I write for lots of different sites. So I always tweet about it so they can find me there.

Perfect. Thanks for coming on. And thank you for watching. We will see you very soon with another brilliant episode or a live stream. And all of them go out at 7pm. UK time six days a week. So we'll see you soon, guys. Bye bye.