TRIGGERnometry - Megyn Kelly: "Biden Presidency Won't Heal America"

Episode Date: November 29, 2020

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I'm Francis Foster. I'm Constantine Kissin. And this is a show for you, if you want honest conversations with fascinating people. Our brilliant guest today is one of America's most renowned journalist and broadcasters. Megan Kelly, welcome to Shriganometry. Thank you for having me. It is such a pleasure to have you on the show. Listen, the reason we were so keen to get you on is we don't know exactly what's going on with the election,

but it looks like Joe Biden will be the president of the United States. and you're one of the journalists, I think we would say, that has been more or less objective on the Trump during the Trump era. You haven't, when you've criticized him, it's been sort of fair, you haven't descended into Trump derangement syndrome, equally, even more, and usually when he's done something that you thought was good, you've praised him. Do you think the Trump era sort of killed mainstream journalism in a way?

Oh, yeah, it's dead. 100%. I said, I think they committed suicide, and Trump was there at Kavorky. You know, he's like, he didn't make it happen, but he helped, but they did it to themselves. They surrendered to their own biases. They were fairly open about it. And there's no coming back from that. And there are massive implications to their decision to totally sacrifice their credibility

with the American people. There's no coming back from it, and there's no one left to trust now as an institution. You know, who, who that isn't a Democrat or a far left person would trust CNN on any thing, right? No Republican in the country would trust them. That didn't used to be the case. When I used to prepare for the Kelly file when I was hosting on Fox, I would watch CNN. I'd have it. I was boring, but I knew it was straight facts. And now that's gone, right? So now we're all tribal, including in our media, and it makes it really hard for American consumers to get the truth. The thing that really bothers me about it, Megan, with this disputed election as such as it is,

is I was wondering about this if, let's say, there were some allegations that were rock solid that came out, which these don't appear to be. But if there were some allegations for either side, the side that is opposite to the side who's making the allegation, would any of them even believe the media that are telling them that this thing had happened? Right. Everything's fake news if it's bad for you, right? Right. And that is in part to blame on Trump, but it is mostly to blame on the media. Trump wasn't wrong when he said the media are the enemy of the people. They are the enemy of at least half the people. Like, they're not the enemy of the Democrats.

But in a way they are because they're undermining trust in the institution of journalism. But they certainly don't want to give Republicans a fair shake. And so he was not wrong to call attention to that. But it really is problematic now because there used to be a time in this country where you'd pick up the New York Times. And it might lean left and you read the editorial and you'd say, all right. I get it. But you'd read the front page and you would know maybe the story selection leans left,

but the facts I can trust. And now that's no longer the case. And I think probably you're right that when Biden takes office and Republicans start saying bad things about what he's doing when he's under the microscope, the Democrats are going to take a page

at a Trump's book and say, fake news. And do you think part of the problem is, Megan, is the fact is is that the media simply can't monetize itself anymore. Therefore, they have to go more and more into advocacy, journalism, and so on and so forth. That's a good question. I don't think that was it.

I think it really was ideological. I think the shift was heartfelt by institutions like the Times and CNN. I mean, MSNBC had already been going left and now it's just fully established over there, way on the left. I think Trump brought out the worst in them. and they just couldn't see past his rhetoric and his weird tweets. And, you know, there's no question he's thin-skinned and petty

and picks up every fight as opposed to just the ones that need fighting. And they turned it into, he's a Nazi. You know, like, if you like him, you're part of the clan. You know, that's, I think they really see it that way. And that's why they felt, hey, were the good guys. They had the white hats on and Trump and his supporters had the black hats on. This is a fight for nobility. And the fact that Trump helped their bottom line didn't lead them to want his re-election.

So that's sort of evidence that it's truly ideological for them to get rid of him, to hurt him, to demonize his supporters. And looking on into the future now, we see Biden more than likely or probably will be inaugurated. But the thing is, is that the liberal media have very much painted it as a return to the status quo. Very much now we're going to see Biden and, everything is going to be progressing as it once was. Do you think that's the case or do you think because of what's happened with Trump, everything has changed forever? Well, I think most Republicans are saying that's the problem.

They don't want to return to the status quo. You know, well, they wanted a chaotic presidency. They wanted somebody to bust all the stuff up. And it hasn't been fully busted. And there are other institutions that could still use, you know, a really good look underneath the hood that we're not going to get. when I was just doing a pod today with J.D. Vance, you know, the author of Hillbilly Elegy. And I'd been looking into the stats on manufacturing in this country. And, you know,

we lost 200,000 manufacturing jobs under President Obama. And President Trump, we gained 500,000. You ask people in the Rust Belt, whether, you know, these white working class folks, whether what they want is a return to the status quo. They don't want that. But the liberals will tell you, but it's the environment. If you're not pro, you know, reforming the environment and protecting the environment, you're an animal. And the white working class guys in the Rust Belt are thinking, but I need to put food on my table and my kids need a place to sleep at night. And I don't feel like an animal for wanting a job.

Right. So that's sort of how it gets painted. But I think in terms of institutional norms, it'll get a little quieter with Biden, for sure. He's not going to be calling out the credibility of the FBI. And he's certainly not going to be attacking the media all the time because you're going to be writing nice things about him. Well, is it at least over now, Megan, this extreme divisiveness, the acceleration of some kind of destructive process, which is what we are seeing over the sea here, just, you know, violence in the streets from both sides, people just going absolutely nuts everywhere. Is it finally over? Can we, you know, Uncle Joe is in there. He's going to look after everybody's going to be nice. He's going to ratchet down the, you know, the tempers. Is it, are we? in the sunny uplands of peace and loveliness?

Hell, though. Look, this didn't start under Trump at all. You know, the nation was getting more divided and more polarized. And the eight years under Obama were extremely divisive. People forget, President Obama seized control of one-sixth of the U.S. economy and revamped people's health care in a way that did not have majority buy-in. here in the United States, there was a whole election, and he crammed Obamacare down the throats of the American people

without 51% support. And I don't think he's ever been forgiven for that. And I think that led to the rise of the Tea Party. People liked to pretend the Tea Party was about race. It wasn't. It was about Obamacare and government spending out of control. Obama weighed in needlessly on numerous cases involving police officers, and black defendants, where he made race an issue, where it wasn't clear it had anything to do with

the matter. And people found that divisive. I could go on. But to pretend this is all a Trump thing is nonsense. He was a symptom of our growing divide, not the cause of it. And there's been nothing to stop that. And Sleepy Joe, I mean, I'll tell you, you know, back when I was a kid and my grandparents used to go sleep when I was spending my summers at their boatyard in upstate New York, we go wild. When the grandpa's asleep, you go wild. You don't calm down. because he's asleep? I think it's going to happen with Sleepy Joe. And do you not think that he is going to try and help the white working class voters?

Many of them voted for him, many of whom supported him. Do you not think they're going to identify that voter base and think, right, in order to help heal America, we need to help these people? There's no reason to believe it other than his rhetoric about Scranton. There's no reason to believe it yet. he's talking about putting an end to the oil and gas industry. How's that going to help the 30,000 people working and fracking in Pennsylvania? I don't see it.

You know, back to the manufacturing in the states like Ohio and Illinois and elsewhere. What's his plan for them? Because he's talking about bringing back those environmental regulations that crush their jobs. I don't see any appetite to continue the trade war with China, which hurts some farmers, but really help manufacturers. So I don't, if he plans on doing that, I'm open eye, but I haven't seen it. What about the town of politics, Megan? Because whether you're on the left or on the right, Francis and I, Francis is very much on the left, I'm sort of in the center. You can't help but notice just how we've descended into some kind of abyss.

And is it all Trumps from here and in? I mean, if you look at the far left in America, you've got AOC, who I would say is pretty much Trump on the left, you know, in her rhetoric and the way that she behaves. in some of the way she attacks her own side when she doesn't feel that it's doing the right thing and so on. Is it all trumps all the way down from here? Look, I spend a lot of time telling you what's wrong with the world, so let me tell you about something that's actually right. Sleep, specifically getting more of it, better quality,

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I wouldn't say so. I mean, I think Trump is a very unique figure. And I think AOC wishes she were a Trump-like figure in terms of her ability to attract attention. Yeah, she's interesting. To me as well, she's young, she's a whippersnapper. She seems unafraid. But, you know, there's only one Trump.

and he spent a lifetime building up his brand, his personal brand, and this personality, this PT Barnum-like, larger than life personality, there's no one else like him. You know, for better for worse, there's no one else like him. So I don't know. I used to say if the Democrats really wanted to beat Trump, they would run like the rock, you know, somebody who's just beloved kind of universally and might be able to transcend politics. But it's not AOC. I mean, unless the Democratic Party completely abandons what its core principles have been up until the past couple of years,

she's not the leader of that party. So I don't know. I think people will settle. I do think there's truth to the reporting that there are a lot of Republicans. Ben Sass certainly has been mentioned. But even like Rick Scott of Florida was mentioned in a report recently as sort of being a little relieved that the Trump era is over, they can lower their shoulders a little. Not everything is a huge battle

where their voter base is being threatened to be taken away from them. Maybe we'll see a little more compromise, but it's going to stay tribal and it's going to stay ugly. It's interesting that you say that. You don't think that there is a figure on the landscape who has that power

to bring people together. Because in England, we seem to be having the same problems that you have in America. Or do you think it's just going to get worse and worse? See, I don't see how they do bring us together. You know, I know Biden's out there saying, we're united. I mean, he's using past tense just upon him, you know, declaring victory.

United, healed. No, we aren't. We're neither. And we're not going to be. What he means is unite around my agenda. And unless you can get the country to do that, we're going to stay divided. The right half of the country is not going to unite around ending oil and gas. They're not going to unite around a pro-choice agenda, which is,

you know, the Republican Party is deeply pro-life. I mean, flip it the other way. What if a President Trump in a second term said, unite around me, you know, come support my pro-life agenda? The Democrats would be like, I don't think so, right? These are core beliefs. And people are in a fighting mood. You know, just look at what's happening to you guys

and what, you know, you talk about on your podcast and what's important to me too, which is this whole crazy cancel culture, you know, woke culture fight. Are you ready to surrender on that? I'm not. If that's what, am I surrendering to people who don't believe in the First Amendment and believe people should get their lives ruined and their jobs taken away just for saying something somebody you don't even know has deemed inappropriate?

Hell no. I'm perfectly willing to stand up to those bullies no matter who's in the White House and I'm not uniting around anybody who tells me they feel differently, right? So these are the forces we're both up against right now. Do you think from a cultural point of you, Megan, you mentioned that issue and you can take further and talk about wokeness and critical race theory and all of this stuff that's being injected into our societies. Do you think that maybe, I don't think it's going to happen. I don't think you think it's going to happen. But if Joe Biden went, you know what, we're

in the White House now. Let's just park that. Let's deal with unemployment. Let's deal with coronavirus. Let's deal with jobs. Let's, okay, look, I have a different view to Trump on China, but let's be a little bit more robust than we have been. Let's tackle the issues that ordinary Americans, black, white, Latino, left, right, up, down, the issues that unite us all. We want, you know, to be able to put food on the table, for our children to go to school and for it to be good and safe, all of those things that used to be the way that you bring people together. If you just park that critical race theory, wokeness, cancel culture stuff to the side,

which he hasn't shown a lot of affinity for so far, personally. Do you think that would be the way to do it? No. he has to deal with his party. I'm trying to get you to say something positive here, Megan. I'd love to be able to. I'm an optimist by nature, but I don't see it here. It's not going to work because his own party is pushing it.

Not the vast majority of Democrats on the left. I don't think they really want cancel culture or that BS. But the faction within the Democratic Party, the established capital left, is loud enough and annoying enough that they're not going to go away just because Joe Biden doesn't push their agenda. You know, to take a look at that leaked phone call that the Democrats had a couple days after the election, where you had a representative from Virginia, a woman saying, we got to back off of this Black Lives Matter, defund the police stuff immediately and back off of aligning with politicians who are for socialism. That's killing us. It's killing more moderate Democrats, which is the bulk of the party. And the response from those so-called squad, you know, Rashida to leave and others,

because what you're saying is black lives don't matter. What you're saying is you don't want to help black people at all and you want them to shut up. So it's like, okay, those are the two binary choices? Couldn't it be something else? Like, they matter, but it's not smart to defund the police, which, by the way, black people don't support. So number one, no, he's not going to have it

because his own party won't let it. But number two, I agree with you. And I think a lot of people believe that Joe Biden is like, he's more moderate. He's not into this crazy stuff. He's more of the moderate. who doesn't support that stuff. Okay. I'm open-minded to that. I would love it if it were true. What are two of his first acts as presumptive president-elect? Number one, he has said he's bringing

back critical race theory mandated sessions into our federal government. Well, there's some good news on the horizon here, Megan, for all of us. So there's that. So he's already said he's bringing him back. So you're going to have to go sit now working in the Department of Treasury. You've got to be told you're a white supremacist, just because you're having to be born with a... certain pigmentation. And number two, awful, awful news, I think. He's bringing back the complete elimination of due process for young men accused of sexual assault on college campuses. This is a huge deal, huge here. You know, I practiced law for 10 years. And I am very pro-woman and very anti-harassment and sexual assault, as most sane people know about me. But in an effort to over-correct a

system that was biased against those claims, we totally overcorrected and swung the pendulum over here to where it's like, you're a man, you're guilty. And it's bad. On college campuses in this country under Obama, thanks to an Obama policy, if you got accused as a man, you would have no right to confront your accuser. You can't cross-examine her. No right to discovery. So if she's got text messages or emails saying, he didn't really do anything. I'm just having the Sunday morning regrets. You'll never know about them. No right to. to bring a lawyer into these crazy kangaroo courts on campuses where you get tried for your name, for your reputation, for your ability to stay as a student by some losers who are usually

affiliated with the sexual assault victims unit. They're not objective observers. And then once you're labeled a sex offender expelled from the college and with no place else to go, even if you get it reversed at a district court level, the school has the right to say, we're not changing our mind. But Trump, one of the great things he did through Betsy DeVos, was to reverse that to say, this is crazy. We shouldn't be doing that. What one of Biden's first announces is, I'm switching it back. Switching it back.

So I don't believe Biden's going to be anti-awoke. I think either he believes that stuff or he's submitting to people who do. Do you have a website or do you plan to have a website? Well, if you do, then EasyDNS are the company for you. EasyDNS is the perfect domain name registrar provider and web host for you. They have a track record of standing up for their clients, whether it be council culture, de-platform attacks, or overzealous government agencies.

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which is of course triggered as well, and you will get 50% off the initial purchase. Sign up for their newsletter, Access of Easy that tells you everything you need to know about technology, privacy and censorship. And Megan, how has it come to this point? You look at America, you look at everything that America has created is a hub of innovation. And you look at these two political candidates. And for my mind, they were both pretty crap, to be honest with you. Why is it we don't have better leaders and politicians in America?

Well, I mean, look at what we do to them. It's horrible. I mean, people say to me all the time, will you run for office, run for office? You know, I'm like, talk about jumping out of the frying pan and into the fire. No thanks. I mean, you blow up your life. Look what happened to Brett Kavanaugh.

He was nominated. He's a judge finding his own business. He nominated for one of the most prestigious courtships, judgeships in the nation on the U.S. Supreme Court. They called him a gang rapist with no foundation. So it's not that attractive a role, right? And I think most people right now, they're afraid to be called a bigot or a racist or a sexist or what have you. Just if they like a tweet. And so like the thought of actually running for office and being able to say how you feel and taking a stance on some of these issues, unless you're the wokeest of the woke and no one can ever say anything.

You know, you're an isst of any kind. It's not that attractive. Only psychopaths need apply, which is what happens. Megan, it's, you know what strikes me about our conversation? We're sitting here. I think it's a fair to say you're sort of center right politically? They're right. I would say more things than I am center.

But I got a couple on the center left that I'm on to. Right. And Francis is center left. I'm pretty much slap bang in the center. And yet, as I play back our conversation so far in my head, on the spectrum as it exists today, at least on Twitter, and this is maybe something we'll get into, this is coming across as like a super right-wing conversation.

Whereas really all the three of us are talking about is sanity, you know, having some sanity in our public discourse. Do you think the spectrum has shifted so far to the left? Do you think it's the domination of certain types of media and the domination of left-thinking people on social media? How is it that the three of us suddenly, you know, have shifted so far in the direction that none of us recognize, I think? Yeah, I know.

We might now be conservative Republicans. Like, whoa! Wait a half of it. Right? Like, just a few years ago, these would have been totally normal accepted positions, and now, I don't know, soon people will be calling us alt-right.

I do think that the media has played a major role in it because they are either woke or they get off on being seen as woke or sympathetic to wokeness. And it's a problem because Madge, my imaginary viewer who sits in Iowa and she works all day, she takes care of her kids, she just turns on the news at night just to catch up on things. She's being told she's awful unless she thinks like Don Lemon, heaven forbid. Right? So it's like, that's not good for Madge. That's not good for the country. And so the media, I do think, pulls people into a reality distortion field and makes them feel like the whole country thinks, you know, it's, whatever, it's racist unless you willingly subject yourself to white privilege sessions before you walk into your corporate job. And if you don't want to do that, you're racist. And they don't hear as much from the, you're racist. and they don't hear as much from the other half of the country, in more than half. It says, huh, what?

Because we're afraid. Most people are afraid. So that's, I think, because we're talking right now about cancel culture, to me it's a First Amendment thing here, and sort of fighting a massive battle about process. The cancel culture thing is an argument about process. Are we going to be open-minded to new ideas that the far left in particular wants us to be open to?

and just swallow them whole without questioning? Or are we allowed to talk about them in ways that may be imperfect and decide for ourselves? And to me, the process by which we evolve and consider new ideas and sometimes reject them is very important and worth fighting for.

And the old saying, like, without letting people weigh in, you'll get no buy in. It's true. Who are you going to convince, like, gender is a social construct without convincing them. Well, I don't think so. I think there are two genders,

male and female and people who aren't sure or have chosen neither can't. But biology says there are two. Bigot! Raise, you know, whatever, transphobe. That doesn't help. So we have to keep fighting for process. And if that makes us right,

okay, then I'm right. If it makes us left, fine. I don't really give a damn what label you put on me, what label we put on you guys. We have to stay in the fight. But you say we have to stay in the fight, but for most people, if you work at a corporation, if you have a job, I used to be a school teacher, that's a sure far way for you to lose your job.

For most people, they can't get into the fight because they've got too much to lose. I don't think we can stay in that place mentally anymore. I think as Douglas Murray has been writing, and I think he's got it. I think he's got it. It's time for people to stand up and say to their employer, their school, their friends, I refuse to let you re-racialize my country, my company, or myself. I believe in the Martin Luther King content of character instead of color of skin approach to life, and I object to your attempt to try to make me look at my black colleagues as other.

because what's happening right now with the race issue. I'll start with that one, is racist. They're trying to overcorrect for racism against people of color by becoming racist against whites and then tell us that's not possible. You can't be racist against whites because they're in the power position, the majority position. Well, that's nonsense. You can be.

And I think unless people start standing up and include black people in this, black conservatives feel as we do, you know, and most black liberals do too. It's only the black leftists and white leftists who are like, no, talk the way I want. people need to stand up on the trans issues, you know, farming out cross-sex hormones to 12-year-olds, allowing prepubescent girls to go on drugs, to, you know, transition, allowing 16-year-old girls to get double mastectomies in an effort to support them. When gender dysmorphia, this belief you're in the wrong body, traditionally, historically, doesn't, doesn't even affect girls. It affects boys, people who are a born boy and identify as girl. Anyway, we have to be able to talk about it. We must. And so the time is passed for, I'm afraid,

because like real harm's being done. We are getting more divided racially because of these programs. We're getting, our young people are getting hurt because of these loud mouths who are shaming everybody from speaking up. Like, Martina Navarararararra did the right thing when she said, I've got concerns about these trans girls competing against cis girls, meaning girls who are born girl and still identify as girl. She got shamed. She should have stuck to her guns. She cowered, right? J.K. Rowling, I admire. I might not agree with everything she said, but I admire her taking a position, standing by it, trying to start a conversation. I realize she's a billionaire. But there's safety in numbers. So if you can find more numbers in your corporation, in your school,

in your community, you'll come to realize you're not alone, and this is a fight that needs fighting. This is one of the reasons we started the show and we've been talking about these issues, all the issues you mentioned, because we recognize, you know, I grew up in the Soviet Union. I'm from Russia and grew up there. And I increasingly recognize, you know, modern society in the West, the exact feelings and experience that my parents and grandparents

told me about when I was growing up, which was everybody's afraid. Everybody knows that they're being forced to swallow propaganda that isn't true. And yet speaking out against it has very, direct and very real consequences for you. But, I mean, I just, I don't know what they're out, is it, Megan, because you are uncancellable, I think would be fair to say. We are sort of there as well.

You know, we know that, but, you know, with the power of big tech, maybe that's not true either. Maybe they'll be able to shut you and us down as well over time. And for ordinary people, as Francis said, you know, their ability to destroy your life is just, it's so overwhelming. I just wonder how enough of us can speak out together at the same time. Well, I think we need to remember that while you guys and I and some others may be vocal about it, we are no way, by no means, alone. Those 74 million people who voted for Trump in this country, they're with us. They don't buy into this. At least in America, we're divided right down the middle. And I can say, I don't know a single Republican who is bought into this woke-knock.

sense. And a fair amount of my Democrat friends, I'm on the upper west side of Manhattan here. This is as liberal as it gets. New York went 87% for Biden. There's a very, very small Republican contingent here. But all my friends who are Democrats, I virtually none of them, only like one or two are awoke. They're all normal Democrats who are like, what is this? What is this nonsense? I don't want this. So they're getable. They're just afraid. So you just need more and more people to say, you know, to borrow a phrase, me too. I'm against this too. I don't like what you're doing.

And I actually think one of the ways forward maybe what's happening in the schools because I think we'll stand up for our children in a way we won't stand up for ourselves. I think we'll take greater risks if it's to protect our kids. Like you're going to sit and tell my kid that he or she is an oppressor,

a bad person, historically awful, because pigmentation that he or she was born with and because of generations ago behavior that she has no control over, no, you're not. I'm going to step in. We're going to stop that or we're going to leave. But parents are more willing, I think, to take a stance when they come to realize

what the indoctrination happening at that level. And I just, like, did you see the woman at Smith? Jody, I can't remember her last name. You got to look this woman up. There's a woman at Smith College, far left institution here in the States, who got out a little microphone and started doing little Facebook posts.

You know her? Yeah. She's like, I don't like what's being said to me and my colleagues about race. I don't like being told I have to look at everyone and assume something about them based on their skin color. I think we should be able to talk about that without fear of getting fired.

And I looked up the law and I realized you can't fire me for trying to start this conversation. This conversation is protected. And I would like others to join the conversation. I mean, it's happening. If she can do it at Smith College, but why are the rest of us such wusses? Like, man up, woman up.

You know, let's get it on because it's time to fight. And if you have others with you, you can win. If you told me 10 years ago that if you stood up and fought for women's right not to be sexually harassed at the office, I would have said, So good. Kiss your job, goodbye. Right? But the reason women started doing it and it started working

is because they're safety in numbers. You know, we had each other's backs. And I think people who are where we are need to band together and come up with real plans and be prepared to have each other's backs. And I'll just say one more point. Lawyers. Lawyers can help because it's not lawful to fire somebody for refusing to racialize themselves. It's not. Like, do we have rights too to not be forced into these divisions? And I think more and more lawyers need to sort of raise their hands and say, I'll be the person. I'll help you. I understand the law and I understand what they can and cannot do to you

to make you feel comfortable before you do go to your company and say, do you think the mainstream media are biased? Yes. That's why you watch Trigonometry. But we all still read the news. And the thing you really want to be doing is comparing how different publications cover the same story. That's where ground news come in. Drawing from 40,000 media outlets around the world

and over 30,000 news stories per day, they empower you to arrive at the truth yourself. Don't do that, just watch Trigonometry. Everyone here at Trigonometry loves Ground News because they've got so many brilliant features, but there's one feature in particular that we all find incredibly useful. It's the Blind Spot feature.

It is the News Blind Spot, and what this allows you to see is what your particular media that you're consuming, whether you're right or left is not covering. There are certain issues that the right-wing media will never cover, and therefore if you only watch the right-wing, you won't know. Equally, on the left, it's the same thing. And what the news blind spot allows you to do

is to get the information that the people who you're getting your media from are not telling you. And they've also got an amazing website, which is ground.com. For those of us who live in the 21st century, unlike Francis and have phones, just download the app from wherever you get your arms. And Megan, what do you think? think is going to be the endgame if people don't stand up?

Oh my God. I hesitate to think. I mean, I think Don Lemon is going to be our ruler. Seriously, is there people like that who are just trying to police every word you say and how you say it? And life will be full of dull, non-offensive, totally politically correct talk until people go underground and have their real conversations at dinner parties. They're worried are being monitored by the East Germans.

It's like, that's where we're heading. you're not really going to stop people from having their views, from having their conversations. You're just going to take it underground. You know, I had a conversation on my pod with Glenn Lowry and Coleman Hughes a week ago. Glenn is an amazing professor at Brown University who's a black man who's very heterodox in his views. He's a conservative guy. And we started talking about, is it better to have a white friend who says everything perfectly toward you as a black person, or is it better to have a white friend who missteps from time to time

or even offends, but it's trying. And both he and Coleman said, the latter, 100%. And Glenn was saying, wouldn't it be interesting? Because I was saying, I try to raise these issues at, like, dinner parties. Let's say where they're all white people. They're afraid. People are looking at me like, oh, my God. She's talking about race.

And I'm like, come on, let's talk. Let me talk to you about what Glenn is saying, what Coleman is saying, what Shelby Steel is saying, what Thomas Sol is saying. It's really interesting. and it may not be what you've heard. And he was saying, it's so fascinating for him as a black man to be a fly on the wall watching white people trying to navigate that conversation. What do they say?

How do they sound? And so I think, like, the more real the conversations can be, even if we falter, the better off we are and the less we're able to speak about how we feel, the more alienated, resentful. You know, that's how you get like white flight out of a community, right? And people saying, of course I support all the transgender community, but then they're not going to hire one, right? Like, they start to feel otherwise.

They start to feel like, I got to go back into my little posse. And I'll say one other thing. I see the Me Too movement, which began with knowable purposes. Stop making women's advancement at the office dependent on granting sexual sexual. favors to a superior, right? And then it morphed into something very different and pernicious, which is more like you make one mistake after a 30-year career and you had a glass of wine at lunch and you put your hand on my shoulder, you're done. Guess what that does for women? Keeps us out of the C-suite level. No male CEO is going to want to advance a woman up to the executive

suite when he thinks she can ruin him with one unsupported allegation. That's where it's morphed. That's dangerous. And we can't let that happen with black, white issues, with trans cis issues, with straight, buy, or gay and lesbian issues. Because the groups in power need buy-in. So I'm appealing now to the woke. If you really want to change things, the groups and power still need to be your advocates. I say to my fellow women, we need men to help us. They're still in power.

They run all of corporate America, not to mention politics. What good does it do is to totally alienate them? they're not going to want to be around us. I mean, they don't say it openly. They're not actually going to choose our resume over that of a guy if they think we're on the hunt to bring them down after one misstep. And the same is true with these other minority groups. They may not like it, but it's a reality.

It's an interesting point you made, and you answered, for honest, this question earlier with this as well, in terms of the end game. And it just made me really sad because I remember when I was a kid, I was a huge, I played basketball all day every day for hours. I watched the NBA. It was incredible for me. I loved it. And my biggest hero growing up was Michael Jordan. And I don't think it occurred to me that he was black until I was like 32 or something. And because they're a racist. Well, that definitely is true. But, you know, it's because it never

occurred to me, because his race was irrelevant. What mattered was this was an incredible player, first of all, who was an inspirational leader. He demanded the most of himself and of his teammates. He won every single finals that he got to. He was a man that I could look up to. And I know friends of mine from all over the world, Chinese, Hong Kongese, Russian, British, who were inspired by that man without even ever thinking about his race.

And yet, if I have children now and they look at the NBA, which they probably wouldn't at this stage, but if they did, they wouldn't be able to have that unadulterated experience. The first thing they would notice about a player was that he was, of a different race.

I mean, it's terrible, isn't it? I think so. And that's the craziness that I interjected with is directly from Robin DiAngelo, who, you know, wrote white fragility and her whole theory, which is being accepted now. It's being taught in schools

is that if you don't see color as a white person, that's your racism. And that white people are supposed to walk into every room by saying, I apologize on behalf of my room. race and myself and I will devote myself the rest of my life to working to make it up.

Like, what? You need to take that up, mate. I'm English. When I walk into it, I apologize anyway. Good. Keep it up. That's how we like you, mate. Ridiculous. And I do think it's, it's like I see it in my kids who have their best friends are black, but two out of my three kids have best friends who are black. And literally, they see it. They see color. They see. skin color in the same way they see eye color and hair color. They have no, no natural inclination

against somebody of a different race at all until the schools sit them down and say one of you is the oppressed and one of you is the oppressor. And, you know, we're in these private schools. So pretty much everybody in these schools is like a kid of somebody who went to Yale and is on Wall Street and is on, you know, some superpowered law firm. And still we're being divided by our skin color and told one of you is somebody who takes advantage and one of you is somebody who's disadvantaged. And it's such an undermining message. And it's so reductive of somebody to take them down just to their pigmentation or their lady parts or their sexual orientation. I guess I feel like the people who are in those minority groups, whether it's women, black people, trans people,

gay and lesbian, they need to lead the fight against this. You know, if you're a lot of, you know, If more folks in the affected groups would stand up like a Glenn Lowry or like a me, like a guy Benson who's openly gay, he's a Republican, and say, we don't want your help like this. We don't like this. We're trying to make our thing not a thing. We're trying to make, we don't want to be, like, I don't want to be judged because I'm a woman.

I don't want to be called a female journalist. I'm a journalist. You can assess me based on that. They're trying to switch it all around. and I feel like maybe the answer is to get more of these people in the minority or the targeted groups to stand up and push back against the white liberals here on the Upper West Side who are running this thing. This episode is brought to you by Ultima Replenisher. Health is all about balance, like a salad with fries. So why not have balance in your hydration?

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At number one, this theory seems to have come up for me out of nowhere. And number two, why is it that all these people who you would think are intelligent, have wonderful degrees and all the rest of it, highly educated, seem to be spouting it without even questioning it? Well, they want, most of them are pro-academic.

which is incredibly left and incredibly woke, and there's really no deviation from that norm. I mean, the only reason Glenn gets away with it is because he is black and he is brilliant. And it's really hard to shut somebody like that up. It's a beautiful thing to watch because he's fearless. But like if you as a white guy started to say those things at Brown, you probably get fired.

No, I paid to watch that, Megan. But listen, I know you've got to run. So let us ask you the question we'll ask all our guests before we let them go, which is what is the one thing that no one is talking about that we really should be? That's a good question. I guess, I mean, like the things that I'm thinking about really are being, they are being discussed. I'm in news, so all my information comes from publicly available sources.

But I am worried about, for me, the discussion is shifted too much to wokeness and not enough to socioeconomic shifts. Like that's the divide we need to be talking about. That's the thing, you know, one of the schools here in New York, there's a push to get free tutoring for the black students only. No Hispanic kids, no white kids. What about the kids who are of lower socioeconomic status? Why don't they get it?

Why should black kids whose parents went to Harvard be getting the tutoring? And like the kid whose, you know, mom has cancer. and has no dad in the picture, but happens to have white skin, not get it. I just think we have to be focused a little bit more on this. And we started right after Trump got elected to take a look at sort of the forgotten underclass. And then people just got so mad at Trump and started talking about racist, bigot, Nazi, about him and his supporters. We kind of forgot the humanity of that group.

And it's not just whites. You know, it's whites. It's blacks. It's Latinos. By the way, who turned out in droves for Trump, I think in large part, as of its economic policies. But they're the ones who need our help. We don't need to be divided based on this other stuff,

which we cannot control. There is a real divide based on money and advantage when it comes to class. Until we address that, we're going to make a lot of headway in terms of uniting. That is a very good point. Megan, your podcast is brilliant. So before we let you go, finally, tell everybody where they can check that out and where they should follow you on social media as well.

Oh, thank you. Well, it's free. and you can get it wherever podcasts are available and just download the Megan Kelly Show and then you can subscribe and rate it and give it five stars and all that fun stuff. I'm learning the language, you guys. But I think you like it

because we're taking a very honest look at all these issues and, you know, as I say on the pod, we're just sort of unafraid. We're going to go to all the places. And one of the things that is good, one advantage of doing this as me is it gets attention, right?

I always say loved, hated, never ignored. that's good. I appreciate that for once because I want attention to these things. I don't want this conversation to be happening in a bubble where nobody hears it. I want more and more thought leaders to hear it and participate in it and be emboldened to do it themselves. Well, it is genuinely brilliant. You've had a number of guests who we've been privileged to have on our show as well. So we thoroughly recommend if you've enjoyed this interview, you go and check out the Megan Kelly show. Megan, thank you so much for your time. Thank you guys. It's been a pleasure. See you soon. Thanks. Take care.

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